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JohnH1963
June 28, 2009, 08:55 PM
This is one low probability-high risk event that does happen and is not out of the realm of imagination. Examples of these occurrences are the following:

- Security contractors and soldiers getting attacked by angry mobs in Iraq and other parts of the middle east.

- Citizens being attacked during the LA Riots.

- Citizens being attacked by roving gangs during various hurricanes and other natural disasters.

Lets say you find yourself on the street and there is a group of 20 loosely organized males moving your way at a medium to high rate of speed. They are about 300 feet away. Under your shirt is a Glock 17 and you have 3 extra magazines stuffed somewhere on your person. You might be able to outrun them, but some of the group appear to be healthy 18 year old males and seem to be coming fast. Some of them appear to have clubs and pipes. They are yelling and charging in a hostile manner. No one appears to have a firearm.

Doc Intrepid
June 28, 2009, 09:01 PM
Get in your car and drive away.

:eek:

When there are more adversaries than you have rounds (sans reloads), the question becomes somewhat academic...

Dwight55
June 28, 2009, 09:46 PM
Many moons ago, . . . there was a movie that starred some karate guru, . . . and at the end of the movie he is in a living room with a whole room full of bg's wanting his hide and all he has are his hands, feet, and a lever action rifle.

He pops the "leader" right between the eyes (bg had on big ugly white rimmed '70's sun glasses).

He then pointed at the second in command and said something like "You're next".

All of a sudden the "mob" toned down, . . . hero left unscathed, . . . and the movie went on from there.

Moral: I believe that with the mob mentality that is out there today (from what I've seen and heard), . . . the above "plan" may be the only thing that could save your bacon. Anyway, . . . backed into the OP's corner, . . . that is plan "A" in my AO. Ya gotta remember that the biggest number of most mobs are just sheeple that found a leader, . . . sans leader, . . . sans mob, . . . to say nothing that I think most of them will find a good reason to go looking for a way out of Dodge when the .45's start exiting the barrel.

May God bless,
Dwight

tpareloader
June 28, 2009, 09:53 PM
When they get in range start shooting. As they drop the rest will wise up. If they don't drop them too. :cool:

robmkivseries70
June 28, 2009, 09:57 PM
Hi Dwight,
Yes, figuring out which ones are the Alpha and Beta males will go a long way towards taking down a mob.Tom Brown gives some good illustration of this behaviour in his Tracker series
Best,
Rob

Drake Remoray
June 28, 2009, 10:04 PM
I think I would seek cover then go from there

Steviewonder1
June 28, 2009, 10:06 PM
First you shoot the loudest MOB member in the head with two rouds, then the next loudest with two rounds if he is still standing, in short order the rest of them will retreat and be gone. The MOB's are only as good as the loudest (not best) member. Quickly Kill the leaders (Noise) and the rest will leave... Then do a 361 degree check and leave the area....

B. Lahey
June 28, 2009, 10:23 PM
Box of skunks, potato cannon

dabigguns357
June 28, 2009, 10:43 PM
duck,bob weave and find hard cover to shoot from,or better yet if at all possible don't get caught in the situation.

Kyo
June 28, 2009, 10:46 PM
I would seek higher ground and make it obvious I am armed.

Lost Sheep
June 28, 2009, 10:53 PM
Reminds me of the Sergeant who passed the order "Fire at will." A private then asked, "Which one is Will?"

How do you tell who is the leader?

Also, this scenario calls for a lot more information. Let's assess the threat in the few seconds I have.

Am I the target of the mob? (To determine the answer to the 3 essential questions: Is my life or the life of another at risk? Is the threat immediate? Is the means to carry out the threat credible?

The added questions of tactics (retreat/withdrawal or negotiation-are these alternatives available and do they give a higher or lesser likelihood of success?) is also open. Can I seek cover? Is my gun the only defensive tool around? and morals, Is this situation one which, next week, I will still feel justified in killing someone?

One handgun against a mob is slim odds. Going down fighting may sound good on paper (or on screen), but is hardly my first choice. Sam Colt's "equalizer" has its limits. My odds of survival may be better in hiding than in fighting.

Besides, at today's prices of ammunition, I would rather run to the left or right to see if they are coming at me or just in my direction.

Distance is your friend.

Another alternative is to pick up a pipe or a brick and start running in the same direction as the mob and yelling whatever it is they are yelling.

I don't have enough intelligence to figure out a good answer to this question.

(Take which meaning of the word "intelligence" in either way you think applies to me. Intelligence: information about a situation which allows conclusions to be drawn or capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding,)

Lost Sheep

Re4mer
June 29, 2009, 02:05 AM
OP, that is probably a situation where you should try to get away at all costs. If your cornered then you will obviously try and fight back but with that many coming at you at once you will probably be overtaken eventually.

Drake Remoray
June 29, 2009, 02:31 AM
Daniel-san best block no be there

What are you doing out on the street in such a situation?

Good grief Jim I'm a neurosurgeon, not a god

Superhouse 15
June 29, 2009, 06:05 AM
Pick up a club yourself and join in. Do that Sgt York "follow me" wave and blend in.

scottaschultz
June 29, 2009, 06:11 AM
If you shoot someone who is a member of an organized gang on their turf, you are pretty much screwed! With them, its all about retribution. They take this "An eye for an eye" thing very seriously and very literally and I am sure they will not rest until you are dead.

And I have to ask too, what are you doing out in that situation in the first place?

As far as bring in Iraq as a contractor... As Superchicken used to say, "You knew the job was dangerous what you took it!"

Scott

BlueTrain
June 29, 2009, 06:45 AM
Rex Applegate published a book on crowd and riot control probably 50 years ago. Find a copy and see what he had to say, though it goes without saying that it was written from a police standpoint and not from a personal safety standpoint. But Elmer Keith mentioned the subject. His solution was his ever-present .44.

Regarding security contractors in Iraq, I think they are part of the problem, rather than part of the solution. We could form battalions of mercernaries or a form of foreign legion instead, to have troops under military discipline, but that isn't the American way.

Double Naught Spy
June 29, 2009, 09:11 AM
Get in your car and drive away.

Engage
Evade
Escape

For a mob, I like the last 2 options the best.

In all seriousness, the best defense is to not be there...where "there" is the location of the mob.

stephen426
June 29, 2009, 09:43 AM
These are vastly different scenarios here.

For soldiers and security contractors, they are in a war zone and can fire back indiscriminantly if they do not back down. That is war and anyone who engages you is the enemy.

This is very different from the LA riots where you are dealing with civil unrest. Just because a mob is moving in your direction does not give you a right to start "mowing them down". Not even the police would do this unless they were fired upon. How do you know you are the target? Now if I was some of the drivers that got attacked, I would defend myself with lethal force if they tried to drag me out of my car and beat me up. First of all, I would avoid areas of civil unrest at all costs. The only reason I would go is if I had to pick up a loved to to remove them from the area of unrest. I would go with several people who would all be heavily armed. Anyone that approaches in a hostile manner will be starring down multiple barrels. Any agression will be met with gun fire. If I was caught in the riot unexpectedly, I would use my car as a weapon if needed. I would lay on the horn and plow through anyone that was intent on harming me. Always drive with your doors locked!

As for looters after a hurricane, I went through some of that after Hurricane Andrew. People were breaking into a mall and carrying stuff off. Are you going to shoot people indiscriminately over property (probably damaged anyways) or are you going to let insurance cover it? What if you owned a convenience store or grocery store? Could you really open fire on people just trying to get food and water for their families? Most people will say that those people should have been better prepared. What if they didn't have the money to stock up? Many people are at the subsistance level. Are you just going to mow them down? Not me. Now if they are forming gangs and roaming my neighborhood, I will blockade the street (maybe the whole gated community) with my neighbors and limit access to residents only. Visitors would need approval from the resident before being allowed in. If a mob approached, they would be warned to turn back. If they continued to approach, a warning shot might be fired. If they continued still, shots might start firing until they turned away.

PT111
June 29, 2009, 10:06 AM
I always liked the story about the Sheriff standing there with the double barrel holding off the lynch mob. Someone yells "He only has two shots with that gun". The Sheriff replies back, "Are you volunteering to take one of those two shots?" and the mob backs off. As long as the mod thinks you won't shoot you are in trouble but when you shoot one the rest have a tendency to disburse or at least the vast majority of sane ones.

Brian Pfleuger
June 29, 2009, 10:09 AM
I make pizzas faster. The only angry mob I'm going to see is when I'm 10 minutes behind on New Years Eve.

flyguyskt
June 29, 2009, 10:10 AM
ninja training and focus

goodspeed(TPF)
June 29, 2009, 10:21 AM
This thread is all sorts of FAIL. :rolleyes:

http://www.shipmentoffail.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/radioactive_fail_.jpg

http://http://www.geekologie.com/2007/10/26/zombie-kit.jpg

kayakersteve
June 29, 2009, 10:21 AM
Steviewonder: Then do a 361 degree check and leave the area

What does that additional one degree give you tactically???

Big Ugly Tall Texan
June 29, 2009, 10:27 AM
The situation you described is pretty much no-win. If you can, slip away while they are still fairly distant. Just because some are coming hard and fast doesn't mean they are coming hard and fast FOR YOU.

If you can't get away, keep the Glock concealed and try to be an non-threatening as you can until a threat is aimed directly at you.

If some guy yells something like "Get the big white boy with the bald head, no teeth and a stupid expression", then I would produce the pistol and if he didn't back down IMMEDIATELY, I would shoot him between the eyes, while still trying to find a way out.

Whatever you do, don't start with spray and pray. I would only shoot those who showed themselves to be an immediate threat to me. Like I said, you know why the mob is angry. It may have nothing at all to do with you.

Yankee Doodle
June 29, 2009, 10:55 AM
Announce in a loud clear voice that " I am HIV positive, and am starting to show the symptoms of AIDS. If any of my blood gets on anyone, they are doomed to a slow painful death".
Then, slowly walk through the middle of the crowd and leave the area.

skydiver3346
June 29, 2009, 11:07 AM
As the Sgt. Major said in the movie WE WERE SOLDIERS":

"Gentlemen, prepare to defend yourselves......"

Which is about all you could do in that scenario you described. If your escape and evade was not successful, then you are forced to use your weapon as a last resort. When you dropped three or four of them, I'll bet they would head the other direction.

stephen426
June 29, 2009, 11:41 AM
Which is about all you could do in that scenario you described. If your escape and evade was not successful, then you are forced to se your weapon as a last resort. When you dropped three or four of them, I'll bet they would head the other direction.

Unfortunately for our boys, that wasn't the case in Somalia. Did you watch Black Hawk Down? I think they tried to based it very closely on what actually transpired. Things get really hairy when your enemy is not afraid to die.

Housezealot
June 29, 2009, 01:36 PM
flatulence!:p

g_avery
June 29, 2009, 05:30 PM
As the Sgt. Major siad in the movie WE WERE SOLDIERS":

"Gentlemen, prepare to defend yourselves......"

Best line from any movie ever.

Terry A
June 29, 2009, 05:52 PM
I like Dwight55's answer in post #3. IF you're ever in that situation, kill the leader(s) and the weaker followers will, or should, turn tail.

What would R. Lee Ermey do? Or a Delta Force operator? Or a Navy SEAL do?
They would all fight hard!
The other option is to not fight to win and possibly (probably) die ugly.....

The BEST advice is to AVOID that situation at all costs by being vigilant as possible and always being prepared for the unexpected without being paranoid. It's easier to avoid trouble than to get out of it.

butterboy
June 29, 2009, 05:54 PM
superhouse15 thinks the same as me , I would figure out how to blend in, maybe let a couple fly and turn your back to the mob, gun in the air,,Guess what? your the leader of the mob.. of course I would NEVER shoot into the air were just haveing fun here right?

w_houle
June 29, 2009, 05:56 PM
Deploy zombies?

rootbeer62
June 29, 2009, 05:59 PM
Call in for an air-strike !

TRX
June 30, 2009, 07:10 AM
>Many moons ago, . . . there was a movie that starred some
> karate guru, . . . and at the end of the movie he is in a
> living room with a whole room full of bg's wanting his hide
> and all he has are his hands, feet, and a lever action rifle.
>
> He pops the "leader" right between the eyes (bg had on big
> ugly white rimmed '70's sun glasses).

Tom Laughlin in "The Born Losers" from 1967.

Think "Gran Torino" from the tie-dye and beads era. Well worth watching.

Double Naught Spy
June 30, 2009, 07:31 AM
superhouse15 thinks the same as me , I would figure out how to blend in, maybe let a couple fly and turn your back to the mob, gun in the air,,Guess what? your the leader of the mob.. of course I would NEVER shoot into the air were just haveing fun here right?

Great theory, but what if you don't readily blend in with the mob. Take for example, the lynchings of blacks by whites in the earlier part of the last century where mobs of whites attacked individuals and families of blacks. Now, if you are a black person, are you going to be able to try and blend in effectively?

Try blending in as the only one over 40 with a group of angry 20 something sports fans, or as the only male at a bridal shower after mentioning the bride to be has gained "a few pounds" and get back with us.

skydiver3346
June 30, 2009, 07:40 AM
"Lynching of blacks by whites".......? What the heck does that have to do with this thread? C'mon double naught.........

Double Naught Spy
June 30, 2009, 07:54 AM
What does it have to do with this thread? Mob actions. The query was, how do you defend yourself against an angry mob. Many of the lynchings that I mentioned were undertaken by angry mobs who essentially went on search and find endeavors in order to have victims to lynch. The intended victims really didn't have much option of trying to "blend in" with their aggressors.

Come on Skydiver, get with your history.

The point is, that unless you are homogenous with the angry mob to begin with, blending in may not be a realistic option.

geologist
June 30, 2009, 08:09 AM
Upgrade to an appropriate weapon for the situation. ;)

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i155/pbgeologist/DSC00130.jpg

skydiver3346
June 30, 2009, 08:28 AM
Quote: "C'mon Skydiver, get with your history"???

I didn't know we had to be a history buff to answer his question. But guess I will defer to you as resident genius on matters such as this.

A_McDougal
June 30, 2009, 11:44 AM
Forewarned is forearmed. The most important thing to do is to follow the news, or know somebody who does and will give you the heads up.

Local sports game? Chance of a riot.
Immigration bill being voted on? Chance of a riot.
Other types of legislation that would have an immediate dramatic obvious effect on people's lives? Chance of a riot.
Big trial in the news and the verdict about to come down? Chance of a riot.
Some peaceable political assembly, and the government is making threatening them? Chance of a riot.

If the govt put a $30 tax on beer, or nationalizes all the 401k plans, or starts rounding up bankers or gun owners or whoever the villains of the moment are, you might be able to hear about the pre-riot a few hours before the rioters assemble and get worked up.

JustDreadful
June 30, 2009, 12:47 PM
If the govt put a $30 tax on beer, or nationalizes all the 401k plans, or starts rounding up bankers or gun owners

If any of that happens, I'll be rioting, myself.

(I might let them have the bankers, because I am not a banker.)




:)

skydiver3346
June 30, 2009, 01:30 PM
:D
Okay, thats going too far! That is just plain unamerican isn't it?
Count me in as I would join the riot if they did that.......

Glenn E. Meyer
June 30, 2009, 01:52 PM
Big trial in the news and the verdict about to come down? Chance of a riot.


What gun for Bernie Madoff sentencing?

TailGator
June 30, 2009, 04:06 PM
Geologist, what kind of concealment holster do you use for that? IWB?

dresden8
June 30, 2009, 06:27 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Wood_(British_Army_Corporal)

I haven't been able to find the actual video of the attack/defence (I am Irish after all) but a pretty horrific story underneath it all.

I remember seeing the actual events on news. Quite bizarre feeling watching it.

Basically unarmed mob takes on armed people and wins.

bestbod85
June 30, 2009, 07:01 PM
If running away is out of the question, I would move into an alley way where the numbers won't count for crap and you can easily take out the not-so-smart- ones who come down the alley intending you grave bodily harm. my
.02. interesting question

Dragon55
June 30, 2009, 07:14 PM
Sounds to me like a simple math problem that can be solved as follows:

assuming 15rd mags..... that's 1 in the Glock 3 more somewhere on your person.....

that's 60rds ......... 60 rds / 20 mob members = 3 for each member............

1st to torso, 2nd to chest, 3rd to forehead

of course don't start shooting 'til you see the whites of their eyes!

... and oh yeah... I'm too old to run any darn where. It messes up my aim when I'm breathing heavy.

Hank15
June 30, 2009, 07:18 PM
I found a good solution.

Find a good choke point and invite a few friends for some "plinking".

teeroux
June 30, 2009, 07:26 PM
Rifles lots of rifles and ammo and if they don't like that and get in a really hairy mood they wont like the make shift flame thrower out of a pressure washer, gasoline, duckt tape, and road flares.:rolleyes:

Wildalaska
June 30, 2009, 07:34 PM
I woould stand there with my Hello Kitty Spandex loincloth and spangled pasties with propellers, along with a sign that says, Free Kisses for Rioters.

WildwhoneedsagunAlaska ™

zxcvbob
June 30, 2009, 07:52 PM
"Now the first thing to do when you're being stalked by an ugly mob with redcurrants is to -- release the tiger!"

"The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the fruit-laden foe but also the redcurrants. Tigers however do not relish the peach. The peach assailant should be attacked with a crocodile."

Double Naught Spy
June 30, 2009, 07:53 PM
I woould stand there with my Hello Kitty Spandex loincloth and spangled pasties with propellers, along with a sign that says, Free Kisses for Rioters.

And then the rioters scream in Monty Python "Search for the Holy Grail" British fasion...

Run Away!!!!!!

Bud Helms
June 30, 2009, 07:55 PM
Do you really want to be there with 20 dead bodies lying around when the enforcers get there? On the other hand, even if none of them appear to have a firearm, do you want to stick around and find out? Is there any one here that won't make every possible attempt to leave? Quickly?

And if you're like me and don't have the legs ya used to have, why I'm getting behind that geologist guy and passing him ammo. :D

Composer_1777
June 30, 2009, 08:03 PM
Fire some warning shots and they will leave you alone; If you do attck them they might go to "flight or fight" and feel like they have to fight you to survive. I would pull out the gun and let them no to not approach you.

Any .45
June 30, 2009, 08:27 PM
try and get away asap. I carry a can of pepper spray I think I'd start there then figure it out as I go. That being if I couldn't get away. Then there's the warning shot, then make aggressive moves to the flanks to try and put as many as possible in front of me and moving away, then once you've opened them up try to gather them together as close as possible and start cranking off shot. That saying if they surrounded you and are still acting agressive.

Sportdog
June 30, 2009, 11:49 PM
Take the best most available position to provide cover and put the rioters in a pinch point to get to you. Lay magazines out for quick access. Start spitting lead as soon as you feel that you must fight for your life. That will either turn the tide for you to exit the area quickly or give you the knowledge that you did all that you could do with the situation you were given.

p99guy
July 1, 2009, 09:53 AM
once again I have to fall back on what I learned from the movie "Blazing Saddles", and take myself hostage.

PT111
July 1, 2009, 10:35 AM
once again I have to fall back on what I learned from the movie "Blazing Saddles", and take myself hostage.

Puleese, everyone knows he was faking it with blanks in the gun. No way would he have used a revolver if he was really intending to shoot anyone.

MLeake
July 1, 2009, 12:17 PM
... look up Jon-Erik Hexum.

Dingoboyx
July 1, 2009, 12:27 PM
Dillon Mini Gun :D

Dingoboyx
July 1, 2009, 12:28 PM
you have swine flu.... and stark coffing & sneezing in their direction :eek::D

SShearer
July 1, 2009, 12:32 PM
Call in an air strike and take cover:D

Kishido
July 1, 2009, 12:33 PM
... look up Jon-Erik Hexum.

Reminds me of how Brandon Lee died

cloud8a
July 1, 2009, 02:37 PM
Start throwing poo. when that is done jog backwards firing until you find a good escape route.

markj
July 1, 2009, 03:33 PM
I prepare for this type of event by eating 3 large cans of Bush's Beans, the original ones not the maple stuff. The dense fog that surrounds me is impenetrable for even the heartiest soul. A handy battery powered fan will send wafts of fog towards any direction I aim the thing. This has brought entire rooms full of stout men to their knees in the past.

I also wear a tied dyed thong, no pasties for me tho I am not a sissy....

The Richard Nixon mask may also be of some help, not sure as I never leave home without it.

matolman1
July 1, 2009, 03:49 PM
You join them..?

DougO83
July 1, 2009, 03:55 PM
Usually, waking up helps...

Yankee Traveler
July 1, 2009, 04:44 PM
It's not how fast you can shoot...
It's how fast you can shoot well.

Deaf Smith
July 1, 2009, 10:15 PM
How do you defend yourself against an angry mob?

Claymore. Works wonders on crowds.

If not that, you run from them. Only if cornered do you use your Glock. And if you do have to shoot, look for the leader.

psyfly
July 2, 2009, 07:46 AM
For mobs, I've always practiced saying (with the right accent, of course):

"Which one of you pilgrims wants to be first?"

Then run.

w

seeker_two
July 2, 2009, 11:51 AM
If I'm at home and have access to my SMLE & FMJ loads (to penetrate the first two rows)....then it's Rule .303....

If not, then I escape & evade until I'm safe....or back at my house where I can get my SMLE... :D

XpatBubba
July 2, 2009, 01:09 PM
If that situation happened to me (as it could have about 30 mins ago on my walk back from the pharmacy, as Honduras where I live is in the middle on a millitary coup) I would try and get a lead of the group. Beat them to high ground. I am 30 years old and in good physical condition but if I start losing my lead and being overtaken or feel like I am about to be flanked, flankers get it first. I practice action drills, walking and firing, strongside and weakside. I walk and shoot center mass as the threat continues putting me DIRECTLY in harms way. I continue firing as I make my way to choke point/high ground. Eventually they will get the picture, out of the 17 rounds in the Glock, I will make 13+ hits under preassure. This will get the point across UNLESS the mob gets your flank and then you are in for a very ugly, dragged behind truck and body left on display type death. I would not shoot round one until it was clear it was me or them and my life was in imminent danger. Even then I fould not just fire into the crowd. I would take out the fastest approaching threats, that would slow everyone else down considerably.

markj
July 2, 2009, 02:49 PM
Where can I find a hello kitty spandex loin cloth? Cabelas is out for some reason....

BlackFeather
July 2, 2009, 04:10 PM
using a large vehicle as cover I would shoot the most threatening (the ones I cant out run or fight) ones.... if they charge after the first couple shots I would find a building and stay at the end of a hall to gain some advantage over the group. I would then empty the first mag on them. I would then reload and get out a window... then run my ass off from there... :p

Creature
July 2, 2009, 04:14 PM
How is that this question has legs this long?

A mob is completely unpredictable in it's behavior. The best defense is avoidance. Failing that, then evasion and/or escape. After that, all bets are off.

johnwilliamson062
July 2, 2009, 04:46 PM
20 guys wth melee weapons approaching fast from 100 yards verbally declaring an intent to do me serious bodily harm and I have a G17 with four mags and one in the pipe mags?
I take a stance and wait until they close to 50 yards, then I start taking abdomen shots at whoever is in front. Misses should hit someone else and the middle should be thinned soon. Those not too excited by the idea will slow, as will those with shots in the torso. Should be able to get myself to a place where I can out run them b4 they close. I can take quick shots at anyone following me.

Or are these zombies?

Creature
July 2, 2009, 04:47 PM
20 guys wth melee weapons approaching fast from 100 yards verbally declaring an intent to do me serious bodily harm and I have a G17 with four mags and one in the pipe mags?
I take a stance and wait until they close to 50 yards, then I start taking abdomen shots at whoever is in front. Misses should hit someone else and the middle should be thinned soon.
Not seeing how you would be justified in using deadly force when at fifty yards you are not in any danger.

Microgunner
July 2, 2009, 05:04 PM
Not seeing how you would be justified in using deadly force when at fifty yards you are not in any danger.


Waiting until they're on top of you would probably be a bad idea. Especially considering it's an angry mob and you'd have to hit a few before the rest got the idea.

Nnobby45
July 2, 2009, 05:14 PM
20 guys wth melee weapons approaching fast from 100 yards verbally declaring an intent to do me serious bodily harm and I have a G17 with four mags and one in the pipe mags?

Oh cut it out, John! That's no fair. If you're going to arrange the tactics of the mob in yer favor, you should line 'em up in single file and shoot the last ones first so the lead "turkeys" don't see their friends droppin'.:p

Creature
July 2, 2009, 07:04 PM
Waiting until they're on top of you would probably be a bad idea. Especially considering it's an angry mob and you'd have to hit a few before the rest got the idea.

I am betting that you would still have serious trouble convincing a jury that you were justified even if they approached with fifty FEET of you...

cracked91
July 2, 2009, 07:34 PM
Im still young enough to run very fast so that would be my first option, but If I could not run it would be warning shots and 50 yards and kill shots at 20 yards. +1 on pepper spray too. I have seen some larger cans of the pepper gel that shoot out to 30 yards. The anarchist's cookbook and the poor mans james bond have all kinds of recipes for dealing with this exact situation. And as for how I would justify myself. . . In either case I would rather be alive and in legal trouble than just plain dead.

Microgunner
July 2, 2009, 07:45 PM
I am betting that you would still have serious trouble convincing a jury that you were justified even if they approached with fifty FEET of you...


I would never fire out of malice, but if I thought my life was truly in danger, even at 50 yrds, I'd have no qualm about opening fire.

Creature
July 2, 2009, 07:55 PM
I would never fire out of malice, but if I thought my life was truly in danger, even at 50 yrds, I'd have no qualm about opening fire.

You still haven't told us how you would convince a jury that your life was in immediate danger from a crowd armed with melee weapons that was fifty feet, let alone fifty yards, away. Dont forget...you said that you would open fire at FIFTY YARDS. I certainly would have qualms about opening fire.

Microgunner
July 2, 2009, 07:58 PM
I am betting that you would still have serious trouble convincing a jury that you were justified even if they approached with fifty FEET of you...




A jury will be the last thing on my mind.

Microgunner
July 2, 2009, 07:59 PM
You still haven't told us how you would convince a jury that your life was in immediate danger from a crowd armed with melee weapons that was fifty feet, let alone fifty yards, away. Dont forget...you said that you would open fire at FIFTY YARDS. I certainly would have qualms about opening fire.


A jury will be the last thing on my mind.

Creature
July 2, 2009, 08:01 PM
A jury will be the last thing on my mind.

But they will be the foremost in your mind afterward...and for a very very long time.

Zombi
July 2, 2009, 09:37 PM
Assuming getting away is not an option and you have to stand your ground. Fire a warning shot in the air make damn sure they know you are not shooting at them. If that don't work do it again and again until you are out of ammo. Dispose of all your ammo before they can take the gun from you. I don't think a court would justify you killing an entire mob in self defense.

scottaschultz
July 3, 2009, 01:13 AM
I know some of you guys are joking with your response, but some of you are not. I posted this before but obviously it bears repeating.

To all the people who suggest using your weapon against this threat, if this so-called "angry mob" is an organized gang, shooting any one of them is an instant death sentence for you. It doesn't even have to be the leader. Once you shoot one of them, you have tipped the scale and they WILL inflict their brand of justice on the person(s) who created the inequity. They have the manpower, the money, weaponry and most importantly, the motivation to carry out this mission to its logical conclusion. They will not rest until the scales are once again in balance and this can only be accomplished by killing YOU!

Go ahead and shoot if you want, but it will be the LAST thing you ever do!

Scott

riggins_83
July 3, 2009, 01:47 AM
When they're at 500 yards I start shooting at them with my 308 target rifle. Once at 150 yards I go for the AR15... once at 30 yards I empty the AR15 magazine then fire at them with the S&W 1911. Any who survive that I simply have Chuck Norris roundhouse kick.

All kidding aside I would avoid contact and drive away if possible. I'd be outnumbered and possibly outgunned by an unknown force with unknown firepower, skill, and motivation. If it came down to it and I had to engage, I'd try to find a point of cover and open fire with the AR.

Dingoboyx
July 3, 2009, 05:30 AM
:D

Microgunner
July 3, 2009, 07:41 AM
But they will be the foremost in your mind afterward...and for a very very long time.

Maybe so, but if the SHTF I won't be giving the possibility a single second of forethought.

Creature
July 3, 2009, 08:27 AM
I won't be giving the possibility a single second of forethought.

So what kind of thought process did you use to make the decision that you would begin shooting when they approach within 50 yards??

Tucker 1371
July 3, 2009, 09:03 AM
Well, I live about as far outside the city limits as I can be without being in the next county so this is not a situation I will ever likely face.

Honestly, your CCW isn't going to do you much good if seeing one of their buddies go down doesn't deter them, not that you shouldn't try it. Now I honestly never expect to encounter this situation but I do have a rifle and/or shotgun in my truck with me 99% of the time for no real reason in particular. If I could get to my truck I would probably just hightail it outa there. Now if for some reason I can get to my truck but can't get away (it has 300k+ miles on it so that's entirely possible) I guess I am left with no choice but to engage them. Ideally I would want to be able to retreat to a place where they could only enter one at a time or where their advance would be slowed (somewhere with one of those fold up bars across the entrance or maybe a parking lot full of cars). If not then be in a position where you can run and open fire.

I know [stuff] happens but why would you be out and about if there was rioting in your neck of the woods? Stay inside, it's much easier to defend yourself (both physically and in court) from there.

Microgunner
July 3, 2009, 10:21 AM
So what kind of thought process did you use to make the decision that you would begin shooting when they approach within 50 yards??


If I determine to my satisfaction that this mob poses an immediate threat to my safety I'll first decide if retreat is possible. If not, my next decision is where to place my shots. A judge and jury will be a complete afterthought.

Creature
July 3, 2009, 10:25 AM
So you don't actually stand by your statement that you would begin shooting at fifty yards? Which means that your "fifty yards" line of demarcation was arbitrary and simply bluff and bluster.

Microgunner
July 3, 2009, 10:34 AM
So you don't actually stand by your statement that you would begin shooting at fifty yards? Which means that your "fifty yards" line of demarcation was arbitrary and simply bluff and bluster.


Well, 50yrds. is an arbitrary number. I don't know exactly when my survival instinct will require me to act, but 50yrds seems as good an estimate as any seeing I have no practical experience in this situation and likely never will. "bluff and bluster" I do not.

Glenn E. Meyer
July 3, 2009, 01:08 PM
What if the mob was carrying explicit signs saying:

Death to Creature and/or Microgunner

and the leaders with megaphones were saying - There is he is - Charge!!

Fleeing in terror seems the best option. Interestingly - some research on mob attacks indicate that the victim - even if armed freezes up and gets hurt by the mob. The mob leaders get some emotional dominance over them. See Violence - by Collins.

There are several incidents were armed officers don't defend themselves with lethal force although justified.

Creature
July 3, 2009, 04:19 PM
What if the mob was carrying explicit signs saying:

Death to Creature and/or Microgunner

What if that mob was carry "Death to Glenn" signs? Once again, fleeing seems to be the best option.

Glenn E. Meyer
July 3, 2009, 06:45 PM
Glenn has already fled. The one time I saw I had an angry mob coming my way - not for me, BTW but for someone else - I beamed out of there.

JohnH1963
July 3, 2009, 07:44 PM
I read that the mobs in Somalia were pushed back by the downed aircrews with effective fire from M9 Berettas. Basically spray and prey.

If I was part of an advancing mob, someone spraying a 9mm at me would definately slow me down.

PT111
July 3, 2009, 08:10 PM
Glenn has already fled. The one time I saw I had an angry mob coming my way - not for me, BTW but for someone else - I beamed out of there.

Elvis has left the building. :eek: Please Feet, don't fail me now! :D

Glenn E. Meyer
July 4, 2009, 10:41 AM
Actually it was an illegal u-turn on a one-way street and down a side street.

Worked for me.

rusherbob
July 9, 2009, 02:32 AM
I agree with taking the high ground, pull the ladder up with you if you go on the roof. Driving away is better. Even better is to not be the only armed person around when this kind of situation arises.

209
July 9, 2009, 02:59 AM
Take the LA Riots of 1992-

Reginald Oliver Denny, a white truck driver who stopped at a traffic light at the intersection of Florence and South Normandie Avenues, was dragged from his vehicle and severely beaten by a mob of local black residents as news helicopters hovered above, recording every blow, including a concrete fragment connecting with Denny's temple and a cinder block thrown at his head as he lay unconscious in the street.

If he only had a gun… and the presence of mind to use it. He would probably not have been dragged out of his truck. A few rounds.. a few members of the angry mob down.. he could have probably driven off to safety. Legal use-of-force? IMO- heck yes.

Or he could have driven off and possibly ran over a few angry "mobsters/ettes". Legal use of force? Again, I would say yes. But it flies in the face of one’s humanity to do something like that and often times people hesitate to be so cold and calculating.

When viewed in the right context, the question can be easily answered. Throwing different facts into it can make it extremely difficult or impossible to answer. Those pesky "what ifs" come into play. For the above instance, we know the outcome and intent of the mob. It's easy to say killing a few of them would have been justified.

markj
July 9, 2009, 04:28 PM
If he only had a gun


If he had only locked the door of his semi.........

209
July 10, 2009, 12:14 AM
If he had only locked the door of his semi.........

That too. But the crew that attacked him wouldn't have been delayed long by a locked door.

mpage
July 10, 2009, 11:03 AM
Here are a some more incidents of this type (aside from the other incident discussed in another thread) which have happened recently; what's interesting is that some in Philadelphia appear to be coordinated through the racially-oriented "ourspace" site:


Man arrested in 'flash mob' beating

By DAN GERINGER
Philadelphia Daily News

geringd@phillynews.com 215-854-5961

Police have made an arrest in what one detective called the "vicious" and "brutal" beating of a 53-year-old maintenance mechanic who was bicycling home from work during the May 30 "flash mob" attacks on South Street.

Stephen Lyde, 21, was one of eight males who knocked the victim off his bike and "brutally beat him to unconsciousness," leaving him with internal injuries and skull, rib and facial fractures, said Capt. Laurence D. Nodiff, commander of South Detective Division.

They robbed him and left him to "bleed in the street," Nodiff said.

The victim was on life support at Hahnemann University Hospital for days, Nodiff said, and two weeks after the attack, he remains hospitalized in stable condition.

Lyde was charged with aggravated assault, robbery and related offenses. In 2005 he was charged with aggravated assault and robbery, but the charges were dismissed, according to online court records.

Praising the "hard investigative work" of the eight detectives and warrant officers who stood with him yesterday at 1st District Police Headquarters, Nodiff said that police expect to make additional arrests soon.

No severe injuries were reported in initial media accounts of youthful "flash mobs" - numbering in the thousands and organized via cell phones and online social networks - that overran South Street, terrorizing pedestrians and motorists.

A city employee and a taxi driver incurred minor injuries when they were pulled out of their cars and assaulted. About the same time, a swarm of teens looted a convenience store at Broad and Catharine streets, according to video surveillance released days after the near-riot.

But the case of the beaten cyclist - by far the most severe incident - was first brought to public attention this week by Daily News columnist Ronnie Polaneczky, who detailed the man's fight for his life in Hahnemann's intensive care unit after suffering a frontal-lobe injury.

Yesterday, the mother of the man, whom Polaneczky referred to as "John," said that she was pleased about the arrest.

"We feel great that the cops got him and hope they get the rest of them," she said. The police "need to get them off the streets and keep them off the streets.

"You don't want to be a prisoner in your own home while the riff-raff run the streets."

John's close friend, Marcia Houston-Leslie, said: "I am glad. You don't want crime like this to go unpaid for. If people do this to someone, they need to be held accountable for it."

"The police have been very wonderful," John's mother said. "They have called us and been up to see [John] and really been on top of this."

Capt. Nodiff said he hopes this arrest sends a message to those who assaulted people during the May 30 "flash mob" turmoil.

Nodiff said that on South Street last weekend, extra police were deployed and no serious incidents were reported. Again this weekend, he said, police will be out in force continuing to show "zero tolerance" for violence.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/47984426.html

New York:


A white Valley Stream man remained in critical condition Monday after police said he was beaten by a group of young African-American assailants in what authorities are investigating as a possible hate crime.

The 30-year-old victim, a Long Island Rail Road worker, was not identified by police, who said the attack was unprovoked.

The victim was repeatedly punched and kicked in the face, head and body at about 12:30 a.m. Sunday by a group of about 12 to 15 male and female assailants, said Nassau police Det. Sgt. Anthony Repalone. The man had gone outside to move his car off the street during a July Fourth party when he was attacked, Repalone said.

He sustained a concussion and fractured eye socket, Repalone said. "There is no motive at this time," Repalone said Monday.


Investigators are looking to see whether the assault was motivated by race, he said.

"A witness heard someone in the crowd make a comment that the police will follow up to determine whether or not this attack was racially motivated," Repalone said. "It's too early at this time to make that determination."

Repalone would not describe what was said that could lead police to determine that the man was beaten because of his race.

Monday, a woman, who did not want to be identified but said the victim was her brother, said he has multiple fractures in his face and jaw.

She said a fight in the group of teenagers had started before her brother went to move his car.

"They were having a conflict," she said. "I assume maybe they thought he was getting involved."

The mother's 911 call was picked up by New York City emergency services and redirected to Nassau County, Repalone said. The call was disconnected and the Nassau operator called back, Repalone said, but was unable to reach anyone.

The man did not seek medical treatment, and his family did not call police again until more than 13 hours after the attack, Repalone said. Police said the man and his family may have underestimated the extent of his injuries. He was eventually taken to South Nassau Communities Hospital in Oceanside, where police said he remained in critical but stable condition Monday.

He parked his car in the driveway and that's when the teenagers approached him, police said.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/cr...,2473140.story

PT111
July 10, 2009, 04:10 PM
Unfortunately mob attacks do exist and I don't think there is a right answer. Other than avoid them if possible or run if you can, anything else may or may not work.

akamdg
July 25, 2009, 12:58 AM
I think that it would be best to avoid the mob but if nothing else it's better to fight back. As soon as bullets starting flying most mobs are going to scatter. People in a mob know they're relatively safe when attacking an unarmed victim. Unless a mob is extremely motivated and expecting to be shot at, I don't think they're going to brave through gunfire to reach an intended victim.

Like in those articles listed above. Those flash mobs consisted of a group of teenagers who were attacking and mugging what they saw as easy vicitms. I highly doubt that these flash mobs are so determined to attack and mug one particular victim, that they're going to take casualties and keep advancing.

Anyway, that's my .02 cents.

Beauhooligan
July 25, 2009, 02:52 AM
First up, I think my chances of having to defend myself against an angry mob is right up there with defending myself against Bigfoot or Alien abduction. I say this because I have pretty good situational awareness and before things get ugly enough for angry mobs to form I'm going to be unaccessing the area. I've seen and committed entirely too much violence in my life to want to be in any situation where I have to cause any more harm. So, my first acts would be to call 911, then run away by any means available. My left knee is a replacement, and my spine is fused in two places, so I can't run far. If that doesn't get it I'd find a place to hole up, into a structure I could secure, up a fire escape to a roof or into a alley where I can narrow my area of access, maybe get some cover or at least conceilment behind a dumpster or some wooden pallets. My carry gun is a SA XD40 SC with a round up the pipe and a 9 round magazine, and two more 9 round spare mags, so I can't hold the Alamo for long. I'd keep my head down and hope the mob would pass, and have my spare magazines ready, and begin praying. But, if I was not lucky I'd bring my piece up as my opponents closed on me. When I thought there was no other option I'd begin methodical fire at the guy in the lead. If there were a large number of them I'd fire single shots to the upper chest. If they are not as numerous I give each a double tap, then proceed to the next. At a certain point the BGs are going to figure continuing to attack is a losing proposition, they would swarm over me while I was making a magazine change or throw a Molotov cocktail back to take me out. I've been to war on a Navy PBR in the Mekong and saw better trained and experienced men than me die despite their best efforts, so I don't have any illusions. And as Hank Williams Sr. said, "I'll never get out of this world alive.":)

A better and more useful topic would be how to survive an attack by 4 of 5 street gang members who try and split up and surround you.

scottaschultz
July 25, 2009, 04:08 AM
A better and more useful topic would be how to survive an attack by 4 of 5 street gang members who try and split up and surround you.
As I have posted here before (and was apparently ignored), street gangs have their own brand of justice. They take this "An eye for an eye" thing very seriously and very literally. If you kill or even injure a gang member, you have upset a delicate balance and the only way to right the scales is for them to take out retribution on the person who took out one of their own. Don't underestimate their abilities. They have the manpower, the firepower and the money to follow through. They will not rest until your are dead... period! They have no respect for human life. The would just as soon kill you as give you the time of day. They have been known to shoot people just for wearing the colors of a rival gang on their turf.

So if you think this crowd will dispurse once you have doubled tapped one of the gang members, may god have mercy on your soul!

Scott

maestro pistolero
July 25, 2009, 04:26 AM
If I start to run and they pick up the pace, and there are verbal taunts or threats, there can be little doubt of their intention. I'll run a short ways looking for a quick cover position, but whether I find any or not, as soon as I am sure there will be no escape, I will be whirling, yelling STOP, constantly re-assessing, and if need be, firing as fast and as accurately as possible until there is no more threat or until I am overcome by them. An angry mob is a deadly proposition. One is unlikely to escape serious if not mortal injury from such an attack. May none of us ever be in such a predicament.

As to retribution: How and why worry about a future attack when your life is being threatened in the present moment? One thing at a time. If you survive a gang attack and have to take down a few threats in the process, at least you are still alive enough to hide out. So, what, am I going to make friends with the miscreants who are threatening me so they'll leave me alone in the future? They may be smart and resourceful, but so am I. Living in fear of criminals is un-American.

scottaschultz
July 25, 2009, 05:05 AM
Living in fear of criminals is un-American.While I agree with this 100%, if you shoot one of them, you won't have to worry about living in fear very long.

Yes, of primary concern would be getting out alive, but if you do take out one of them, just be aware there will be a very heavy price to pay. They don't have the same restrictions on what kind of firearms they can buy as do us honest law-abiding citizens. With their money and resources, I assure you they do not buy their guns at Cabelas or from Buds!

Scott

maestro pistolero
July 25, 2009, 07:33 PM
What's the point? You don't have the luxury to worry about a future attack when your life is in immediate danger. How is there any choice at that moment? Be killed now, or be stalked and killed later. I'll take later, thank you very much.

zxcvbob
July 25, 2009, 08:56 PM
They will not rest until your are dead... period! They have no respect for human life. The would just as soon kill you as give you the time of day. They have been known to shoot people just for wearing the colors of a rival gang on their turf.

So you're saying we should kill all of them? Or what?

Composer_1777
July 25, 2009, 09:13 PM
Gang members can't suround you if you are expecting a fire fight.

As soon as they pull up in a hostile manner or set their sights on you, take up position and draw.

You might be able to kill 4 or 5, their accuracy and demeanor are poor Or just draw the fire fight out. They most likely only have one magazine in each gun and probably will spray and pray.

You might die, that is life.

Catfishman
July 25, 2009, 09:37 PM
Noise, close to politics

seeker_two
July 27, 2009, 08:59 PM
I'm just impressed that we've talked this long about defending oneself from a mob focused on killing you....and no one's even said the "Z" word.... :D

Mike in VA
July 27, 2009, 09:44 PM
A couple of hand grenades migbht give them something to think about, but might also be detrimental toyour complexion, too . . . . .:D:D

rick73852
July 29, 2009, 02:49 PM
Don't **** off more people at one time that you have rounds. LOL

onthejon55
July 29, 2009, 04:27 PM
Find something to hide behind and start squeezing off rounds. Either they change their mind or you die.

ronto
July 29, 2009, 04:39 PM
Not much of a choice here, other than...I only have 6 rounds, so which one of you low-life cowards wants to be first?

overkill556x45
July 29, 2009, 04:43 PM
For soldiers and security contractors, they are in a war zone and can fire back indiscriminantly if they do not back down. That is war and anyone who engages you is the enemy.

Actually, that's the fastest way to Ft. Leavenworth I can think of. Sucks, but even four years ago the ROE was pretty restrictive. It's worse now, so I hear. But that's another story for another day.

I got caught in a riot (thanks, Newsweek--lying about the quaran being flushed at club Gitmo) in May 2005 in the city of Jalalabad. We shut down the gates, brought our guys inside the wire, closed the steel gates, set up a final defensive line, put every warm body in full kit locked and loaded on the perimeter wall, and let the local police deal with it. It was over by the end of the day, and the fires were out a couple of days later. Once again, thanks Newsweek.

I don't see an angry mob coming to get me in my town of 1100 people (1100 if you count all the way out to township limits). But if I do get attacked by the extras from Mad Max, I keep my zombie war box with a flak vest, OTV with 9 magazines, 25rds of buckshot, and 4 pistol mags within a few feet of my TV chair. I'd bunker up, get the non-fighting family members locked in the basement, and watch the doors from my favorite chair. If I wasn't on my home turf, I'd get in the Ford and put the hammer down. Move it or lose it.

scottaschultz
July 30, 2009, 10:05 AM
If I wasn't on my home turf, I'd get in the Ford and put the hammer down.You do have a death wish, don't you!

Scott

jack404
July 30, 2009, 11:07 AM
Kosovo

A UN (Australian ) patrol of 4 men where abandoned by the french troops who pulled out all of a sudden , leaving them in the wrong place without transport or back up and a WAP radio ( weak as p***)

they where confronted by 1200 rioting folks including women

they about faced and started double timing it back to the safe zone but where cut off

a few rounds slowed the crowd down some so thats how they played it

kept double timing until the mob closed in and they set off some rounds again

16 kilmeters or just over 10 miles they did this for

shot where fired at them from the odd AK but mainly shot guns etc but nothing too accurate,

they KEPT THIER HEADS and so they kept thier backsides intact

in situations like this THINK..

shooting into the road a few meters in front of the crowd ensures plenty of small "bits" hits the crowd which will deter the not so willing , while keeping you moving

its when your stopped moving that situations like this get bad

keep mobile, keep calm, and keep thinking

and keep the other side off balance if you can

cheers

jack

JustDreadful
July 31, 2009, 03:37 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaster_(flamethrower)

Steve1911
July 31, 2009, 08:49 AM
A mini gun and a really fast dirtbike...:D

Michiana1
August 1, 2009, 10:24 PM
It sounds like you'd have time to flee. I'd try that first just incase they maybe armed. But if I couldn't flee I'd take cover try to take a reating braced shooting position and get ready to take out the front guy after a verbal warning. If they are dead set on hurting me I'd leave out the verbal warning and take as many as I could at as far away as possible.

BigCheeseStick
August 2, 2009, 09:05 AM
Yell one of the following until the focus of attention turns.

"It was like that when I got here!"

"He did it!" (With the obliged finger pointing)

"I've got a scorching case of herpies, and wear braces!"

:cool:

Gunforall
August 2, 2009, 10:26 AM
Join em!! :D

Glenn E. Meyer
August 2, 2009, 11:14 AM
Last night, they reran The Mummy. In it, the mummy sends a mob of zombie like folk to capture Rachel Weisz and some magic artifacts. They chant Imhotep-Imhotep. One of the good guys falls in with them and starts chanting Imhotep but walks slowly and passed out the back.

This is your strategy for mummy mobs. Later, one guy just throws himself at the mob as a sacrifice for his buddies.

Poseidon28
August 11, 2009, 11:40 AM
How do you defend yourself against an angry mob?
This is one low probability-high risk event that does happen and is not out of the realm of imagination. Examples of these occurrences are the following:

- Security contractors and soldiers getting attacked by angry mobs in Iraq and other parts of the middle east.

- Citizens being attacked during the LA Riots.

- Citizens being attacked by roving gangs during various hurricanes and other natural disasters.

Lets say you find yourself on the street and there is a group of 20 loosely organized males moving your way at a medium to high rate of speed. They are about 300 feet away. Under your shirt is a Glock 17 and you have 3 extra magazines stuffed somewhere on your person. You might be able to outrun them, but some of the group appear to be healthy 18 year old males and seem to be coming fast. Some of them appear to have clubs and pipes. They are yelling and charging in a hostile manner. No one appears to have a firearm.
JohnH1963 is offline Report Post

Do everything you can to get away from the mob. Now, if it's the LA riots, and you are white, you know what color the mobs where, and, you AREN'T going to be able to fit in.

What did happen was as soon as the verdict came down, everyone got out of the city, and, headed to their different areas. Citizens banded together, put up barricades, and turned back everyone that did not live in their area.
They used any, and every firearm they had present: Rifles, shotguns, etc.

The police gave up, pulled out as did the firefighters, since they were great big bullseyes for the rioters, who shot them.

Another lesson is if you live in an area where the rioters are coming after you, always shoot from cover, so the press helicopters can't get film of you protecting yourself, your family, and your property.

Remember: the media has to have a bad guy with a gun, so they can discredit firearms at all costs. So, if your Korean, and you want to protect your life savings, store, and family, do not shoot from the roof of your building.

akamdg
August 28, 2009, 07:02 AM
Here's an article I found about a lone police officer who held off an angry mob of 60 individuals with his sidearm.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Officer, dog square off against Modesto mob of 60

EVENING UPDATE - The lone Modesto police officer who confronted a hostile crowd early Sunday morning was punched in the face and forced to dodge glass bottles that were thrown at him, according to new details police released Tuesday. The case is receiving nationwide attention.

According to witnesses and police, some in the crowd taunted the officer, shouting, "Shoot me, shoot me!" Another said, “You know you’re not going to make it out of here.”

Residents on the 1700 block of Pelton Avenue described the scene as “horrifying” and “like something you would see on Cops,” the TV show that showcases confrontations between police and criminals.

The officer and his canine companion were both slightly injured during the struggle, said Police spokesman Sgt. Brian Findlen.

The office was alone with the crowd for five to eight minutes.

The case has been featured much of today on the Drudge Report Web site.

***
A Modesto police officer had to pull his gun to keep a hostile crowd at bay early Sunday.

The officer sustained minor injuries in the southwest Modesto incident, said police spokesman Sgt. Brian Findlen. Police are not releasing the officer's name. The officer's dog was assaulted but not seriously injured, Findlen said. Police arrested several suspects in connection with the incident. A loaded assault rifle was found later at the scene of the struggle, which unfolded about 2 a.m.

Findlen said the officer pulled his gun only after other deterrents, including his police dog, failed to keep the crowd under control. "In a situation where you really feel that your life is in imminent danger, your options become very few," Findlen said.

Some members of the crowd told the officer that "he was not going to leave the scene alive," according to police.

The crowd of as many as 60 people included some known gang members, Findlen said. Police believe the group was gathered for a party in the 1700 block of Pelton Avenue. The officer happened upon the group when he was responding to another call in the area.

The officer saw several people assaulting one man, Findlen said. As the officer tried to break up the fight, the crowd's attention shifted from the assault victim to the officer. The crowd surrounded the officer. The officer sent his dog into the crowd in an attempt to stop the group.

The dog apprehended one suspect, who police later identified as 18-year-old Alfredo Espinoza of Modesto. As the officer tried to arrest Espinoza, the crowd pulled Espinoza away from the officer.

According to police, some in the crowd then challenged the officer to a fight. One suspect attacked the officer, police said.


Officer's radio broken

The officer's two-way radio was broken during the struggle. The officer then used his gun to hold off the crowd as he tried to tell neighbors to call 911. Someone in the crowd had a police scanner, Findlen said, and told the rest of the crowd that other officers weren't responding to the scene. It was then that the officer was told he wouldn't be leaving the scene alive, according to police.

Backup units responded after calls from other residents.

Other officers responding to the scene stopped a vehicle and found Espinoza inside, Findlen said. The driver, 20-year-old Modesto resident Andrew Mitchell, and the passenger, 19-year-old Modesto resident Matthew Reyes, were arrested on suspicion of resisting and delaying a police officer, assaulting a police dog, and "lynching." Lynching is a law enforcement term that means forcibly removing a suspect -- in this case, Espinoza -- from police custody.

Two police scanners were found in the vehicle.

Two other suspects were arrested at the scene of the struggle. William Rodriguez, 29, of Modesto was arrested on suspicion of assaulting a police officer, false imprisonment of a police officer and lynching. Junior Suarez, 19, of Modesto was arrested on suspicion of resisting and delaying a police officer and lynching.


Assault rifle found

Officers reportedly found a loaded assault rifle magazine near the scene of the assault.

During a follow-up investigation later Sunday morning, police said, officers found a loaded, banned assault rifle that police believe was used at the scene of the party. Gabriel Avila, 21, of Modesto was arrested on suspicion of possessing an assault rifle.

Detectives are continuing their investigation. Anyone with information is asked to called the Modesto Police Department at 572-9500 or Crime Stoppers at 521-4636. Tipsters also can text information to 274637. Type "TIP704" with your message.

Bee staff writer Leslie Albrecht can be reached at lalbrecht@modbee.com or 578-2378.

http://www.modbee.com/local/v-print/story/648161.html

TailGator
August 28, 2009, 07:42 AM
I would love more details, but what is apparent to me is that this officer managed to escape an extremely dangerous situation without firing shots. While I would not have faulted him for firing in that situation, his restraint and professionalism may have saved his life; I admire his cool head and hope that more of us can emulate it.

zxcvbob
August 28, 2009, 11:29 AM
Residents on the 1700 block of Pelton Avenue described the scene as “horrifying”...and yet none of them came to his aid (maybe they didn't have a rifle, being good Californians). I wonder if anyone even called 911? Too busy popping popcorn.

pax
August 28, 2009, 11:36 AM
zxcvbob ~

Yes, they did.

Backup units responded after calls from other residents.

Safest thing to do. 60 to 1 is horrifying odds. 60 to 2 isn't much better.

pax

zxcvbob
August 28, 2009, 11:51 AM
Thanks Pax, I missed that (subconsciously probably wanted to miss it.) If I witnessed something like that in my neighborhood, I'd call 911 and then watch from the safety of my window -- through a rifle scope aimed at the head of whoever looked like the leader. Wouldn't shoot tho' unless it suddenly got pretty bad.

Skans
August 28, 2009, 11:57 AM
If someone hasn't already said this..............RUN!:

AmmoSphere
August 28, 2009, 12:23 PM
Do zombies count as a mob?:D

MLH
August 28, 2009, 07:54 PM
Dust off and nuke from orbit.:D

Leave no witnesses.

Dannyl
August 29, 2009, 12:30 AM
calling in a fire mission from 81mm mortars seems like a reasonable thing to do :eek:

greywalker
August 29, 2009, 12:45 AM
run if possible, myself, I have less than great lungs from a bout of walking pneumonia that left me with lung scarring- so I would retreat to the side and away, hoping they were not fixated on me in particular- if followed, I would attempt to preserve my life by any means available- and hope that if it came to it I took a lot of them with me If I did go down.....

Regular Joe
August 29, 2009, 03:10 AM
300 yards you say. If they haven't started shooting at me, I have no reason to shoot them, yet. If they're that far away, I have scared people running toward me, trying to outrun them, so it may be hard to just rain a few rounds of buckshot in their direction. Yea then. I have the Glock 17 ready to rock (always) and jump in the car.
If they're closer than that, and I don't have time to scoot, I just use loaded mags. 30 of them, armed with pipes, against 250 rounds..... OK.

Rich Keagy
August 29, 2009, 09:28 AM
I've seen surveillance video showing crowds react when shots are fired.
It's like a great wind just blows everyone away.
Once you've fired, you won't see anything other than people running away.
Everyone knows stray bullets kill. It's on the news all the time.
Everyone runs as fast as they can.

obxned
August 29, 2009, 01:58 PM
Conan the Barbarian was always polite to the mobs and would ask "Who dies first?"

Edward429451
August 29, 2009, 02:52 PM
Mobs are fueled by numbers and loudmouths. The large numbers of people give them security to follow the loudmouths direction. So it's simple, speak louder then the loudmouths, at the loudmouths (with a gun), and the crowd will listen to you instead and disperse.

Any questions?:D

Moloch
August 29, 2009, 06:23 PM
1. be sure that they target you
2. run, if you cant outrun the mob take cover
3. wait until they are close enough to make 100% kill shots
4. shoot till you run out of ammo or the barrel melts away
5a. when the first few members catch the flying lead the rest runs away or
5b. you shoot and drop all attackers, or
4c. you run out of ammo and die kicking and stabbing the sob's with your knife taking as many as possible with you.

Lee Lapin
August 29, 2009, 07:24 PM
Trainer John Farnam is fond of saying- "When it's least expected, you're elected." It's not possible to predict what is going to happen were, when, or why. A news story from the small town that's the county seat of the place I grew up is an illustration of that from earlier this week:

http://www.tuscmoms.com/article/20090824/WVUA01/908249966/1007/RSS?Title=Feuding-Families-Cause-Riot-in-Marion
August 24, 2009

Alabama State Troopers say at least eight people have been arrested and four injured in what is being called a full-scale riot in the town of Marion. Perry County officials say a long-running feud between the Moore and Sawyer families erupted into a fight Monday morning at a high school.

One parent said it started when her son was jumped Sunday night after a basketball game. Cynthia Walter says he was threatened by a family in a gang. The windows were also shot out in another person’s car Sunday night. Marion Police say some of the people arrested for the riot Monday were responsible for shooting into that car. Walter says something more should have been done to protect the students at school. She says, “the school called us and told us not to let the kids come to school because some threats had been made on their lives. However, she says when they got to school the people who threatened her son carried out their threats.

Two people were arrested at the school, but another disturbance broke out at Marion City Hall. Compared to the four police on duty, Chief Tony Buford said the police were stuck in the middle of the riot – outnumber. “We called in outside resources right away because there was no way the four police officers… and the deputy sheriff here on the scene could control 110 people.” The mob grew to about 175 people, according to police. At least six more people have been arrested.

Chief Buford was hit in the head with a tire iron and the mayor was also assaulted. Law officers from throughout west Alabama were called in to the area to help. Some are staying in the area to maintain peace.
========================

So, what do you do?

Best answer is, don't be there.

lpl

procopper7005
August 31, 2009, 01:23 AM
I have faced an angry mob more than once in my career. The best bet is to retreat to safety and call as much backup as possible.
We were serving a drug search warrant in a large section 8 apartment complex and while inside the house doing the search the officer pulling security in the front advised us of a large crowd throwing rocks at our raid van which was parked out front. We had to call the entire patrol shift, 14 officers (one of which had a patrol dog), and the 5 state troopers who were on duty in our area to the scene. The troopers ended up having to pop smoke in the street out front (we didnt use tear gas becuase of children in the area). Our raid van had half of its windows broken out and we made 4 arrests from the crowd in addition to the 2 coke dealers inside the apartment. There was also several shots fired from about a block away into the air.
Why were they so mad? The guy we had raided had a safe inside with about 100 grand in drug money. He was holding the money for 2 other dealers who operated in the complex. All of their relatives, girl friends, children, etc lived off of their drug money and didnt want to see their lifestyle go down the tubes with the seizure of this money and the drugs.
This is the crap cops deal with which is why we now carry large canisters of crowd control pepper spray foggers.
If for some reason we had no back up we probably would have got into the van with our two prisoners and the small safe and just left in a hurry.

zxcvbob
August 31, 2009, 10:37 AM
Trainer John Farnam is fond of saying- "When it's least expected, you're elected." I just figured out where I'd heard that before (it's been bugging me) "...You're the star today. Smile! You're on Candid Camera!" :D

scottaschultz
August 31, 2009, 02:18 PM
Wherever I am when this happens, I just hope there is a free WiFi hotspot closeby so I can get online with my laptop and check with the experts here on TFL before I make bad tactical move!

Scott

markj
August 31, 2009, 04:04 PM
I had some camo made up like the pink panther wore at the end of the newer make. Blends me right in.

Safest way has been explained already

Imohtep

Imohtep

Just like in the movie...

GLK
September 20, 2009, 12:45 PM
As I have posted here before (and was apparently ignored), street gangs have their own brand of justice. They take this "An eye for an eye" thing very seriously and very literally. If you kill or even injure a gang member, you have upset a delicate balance and the only way to right the scales is for them to take out retribution on the person who took out one of their own. Don't underestimate their abilities. They have the manpower, the firepower and the money to follow through. They will not rest until your are dead... period! They have no respect for human life. The would just as soon kill you as give you the time of day. They have been known to shoot people just for wearing the colors of a rival gang on their turf.

So if you think this crowd will dispurse once you have doubled tapped one of the gang members, may god have mercy on your soul!

Scott


Ok Scott what is your answer, just let them kill you then and there so they won't kill you later:confused:. I won't live my life in fear of the what ifs in the future. I would hope that I would have the courage to die fighting rather than to live my as a coward of the future possibilities. Like I see quoted so many times on the Internet, "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to stand by and do nothing", or something to that affect. Can I assume that if you witnessed a murder committed by a verified gang member you would suddenly go deaf mute and blind? Personally I realized long ago that some thing are indeed worth risking death for and there are far worse things than death.

P.S. I realize that I am a bit late to this discussion but perspectives and attitudes likes Scott's just floor and sadden me.

Stevie-Ray
September 20, 2009, 02:52 PM
Not much of a choice here, other than...I only have 6 rounds, so which one of you low-life cowards wants to be first? I don't think you can take us all, badass![/Brave tough guy] [Steven Seagal][B]Bang...tough guy dies. No, but I'll get an A for effort![/Steven Seagal]..........Above the Law:D

rauke
September 20, 2009, 03:08 PM
1) Assess the threat: are they really after you?
2) If they appear to be, try and hightail it out of there.
3) If you can’t, cheat! Step into the middle of their path, Glock in one hand, physically blocking their path. Appear to be signalling to two (non-existent) buddies of yours on their left and right flanks. This show of bravado displays equal and proportionate aggression, which should give them some pause to think---“Are we sure he’s alone? How many others are with him? What sort of weapons are they armed with?” Remember that it's what we don't know that frightens us.
4) Order them to stop and warn them that you will open fire if they do not.
5) If they decide to call your bluff and start charging in earnest, open fire. Shoot down the noisiest members first. Try to pick off their leader(s).
6) When your first magazine runs dry, veer away sharply and reload behind cover.
7) Open up again, this time from behind cover, and try and use up your entire ammo supply.
8) Reserve the proverbial last bullet for your self. If you are afraid to die, you have no chance of controlling the situation at all.

scottaschultz
September 21, 2009, 10:39 AM
Ok Scott what is your answer, just let them kill you then and there so they won't kill you laterMy preference is not to get killed at all!

My point was supposed to be that some people think that carrying a gun somehow makes them invincible and they will be able to shoot their way out of any situation. Where ever I go and whatever I do, I do it as if I did not have a gun with me. I have never drawn my weapon and I would have to say that I have never even "postured" in a situation to let someone else know that I have a weapon.

I know some of the answers here were made in jest, but some people in many of the T&T threads, not just this one, are clearly not thinking of the consequences of their actions. Carrying a lethal weapon is an incredible responsibility and even though I am sure I will get in a lot of trouble for saying this, some people here don't "get it" and shouldn't be carrying!

There is the old saying, "I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6" and some of the people here should be very careful in what they ask for!

That is my opinion. I understand that yours may be different, but that's what makes the world go 'round!

Scott

GLK
September 21, 2009, 11:07 AM
Thank you for making it easier for me to understand, I pretty much totally agree with your last post and also conduct myself accordingly. I was looking at it from a no way out other than fight scenario(so much gets lost or doesn't read as intended during online conversations). No need to worry in regards to; I am sure I will get in a lot of trouble for saying this, some people here don't "get it" and shouldn't be carrying!
We will get in trouble together as I absolutely agree with you on that.

wyatt3d
September 23, 2009, 06:39 AM
I didn't think this thread would have much effect on me but going hunting this weekend (I'm from South Texas) and hunt in a very remote area with lots of illegal alien traffic.

I've had several encounters in the past 30 yrs I've hunted and lived down there and most everyone of them has been a non issue, they either avoid you completely or ask for water, food, or work. But you can bet your a$$ when you are talking to one or two there are usually another 5-10 hiding in the brush, waiting to see if it's safe to come out. I've always sent them on their way and for their saftey called the Border Patrol to pick them up before they die of starvation and dehydration.

Now in the last 5 yrs or so I have heard of some bad encounters where the illegals have become a little more brazen and aggressive including a break in at our place last month!!

I've always open carried my .45 (7+1) when on the ranch but I believe I'll be carrying my XD-9 from now on with an extra magazine!!