Legal "concealed carry" without a permit

[Prof Young]

Pistol Packers:

A relative who is in law enforcement tells me that here in Illinois, the law is such that if you carry an unloaded fire arm in a bag or fanny pack or briefcase that is zippered shut or other wise closed in a sealed manner, then it is legal "carry." In other words you can have your gun and you loaded clip separately in a fanny pack, zippered up, and it's legal. The clip cannot be in the gun, and the chamber must be empty. As I think about the laws governing the transport of firearms in Illinois, this makes sense and seems right. Thoughts and comments?

Live well and be safe
Prof Young

[GojuBrian]

I wouldn't take his word for it, LEO or not. Look it up or consult a lawyer first.

[T.A.Sharps]

And if you exposed the firearm, or even used it.....

[Sixer]

You could always just carry it around in a Cabela's shopping bag. If anyone asks just tell em you're on your way home with your new plinker :)

Not advising BTW.

[scottaschultz]

How else are you supposed to get your guns to and from the range??

Scott

[Kreyzhorse]

Look it up or consult a lawyer first.

As Scott mentioned above, there has to be a way to move a gun from point a to point b, but I'd want to make sure I understood all of the details before I decided to use that as a CCW.

[cecILL]

According to the information from the Director of the Illinois State Police, there are three conditions that have to be met in order to transport a firearm legally in Illinois. "1. Unloaded and, 2. Enclosed in a case, and 3. By persons who have a valid FOID card." (If a person had to use a firearm in a defensive situation, he had better be able to prove that the three conditions had been previously met.) "The Criminal Code refers to "a case, firearm carrying box, shipping box, or other container." However the Wildlife Code is more specific, defining a case as "a container specifically designed for the purpose of housing a gun or bow and arrow device which completely encloses such gun or bow and arrow device by being zipped, snapped, buckled, tied, or ortherwise fastened with no portion of the gun or bow and arrow device exposed." So, I believe the LEO is correct. And as scottashultz said, "How else are you supposed to get your guns to and from the range?" I am not a lawyer. But this information is quoted directly from the "Transport Your Gun Legally" / "Commonly Asked Questions on Transporting Firearms" issued by the State of Illionois.

[MontyCop05]

The clip cannot be in the gun, and the chamber must be empty.

This is a "CLIP"
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/Juicemn82/M1Clip.jpg

This is a MAGAZINE
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y241/Juicemn82/glock_mag.jpg

Even if what you describe is "legal," its stupid. An unloaded gun is just a pretty stick. SD situations usually occur in a matter of seconds.

[ISP2605]

The "fanny pack carry" issue came to light in about 2001. Some were advocating that it was legal, some didn't think it was, most didn't know for sure. My agency was getting called many calls everyday from the public and other LEAs/LEOs asking for an opinion on the legality. I personally fielded a lot of such calls. In order to get a statewide interpretation of how the law was applied and intent of the law we contacted the IL AG. The AG at the time was Jim Ryan who was running for governor. His office refused to give an opinion and deferred to each of the 102 states attorneys. We contacted each of the states attorneys. We got answers ranging from "it's illegal and I'll prosecute" to "it's legal and there is nothing to prosecute". The most common answer was "make the arrest, seize the firearm as evidence, then bring me the case and I'll decide on each case whether to prosecute." Not much guidance was it? What we ended up with was in 1 county fanny pack carry would not be prosecuted, cross the road into another county and the person would be prosecuted, then cross the road into a 3rd county and the person would be arrested and wouldn't know if they're going to be prosecuted until after the SA decided. It wasn't any help to the citizen or LEO. It all depended on the particular SA and court.
Since then the AG has changed and so have a lot of the SAs. However I believe if we did the survey again the results would most likely be about the same statewide.
I recommend that if you decide you want to fanny pack carry that you first contact the SAs in the counties you frequent for their current stand on the issue. Make sure you fully understand what the SA says. Do NOT try reading into his comments or trying to make them fit what you want them to say. I also recommend that you retain the services of an attorney on call because you'll most likely need someone to represent you in negotiations with the SAs. The next thing you need to consider is if you get arrested and charged are you prepared to pay the legal fees to resolve the matter. Are you prepared to possibly spend the night or weekend in jail until a judge sets bond? And the last thing to consider is are you prepared for the consequences if the court rules against you and you find yourself with possibly a felony conviction on your record and therefore never allowed to possess a firearm again, have to pay many thousands of dollars in fines and attorney fees, and possibly face jail time. At the very least, win, lose or draw, expect to spend several thousand dollars in legal fees. In other words, before you fanny pack carry make sure you are fully informed of the circumstances and your fully understand the repercussions which may result.

[Delaware_Dan]

other words you can have your gun and you loaded clip separately in a fanny pack, zippered up, and it's legal.

A loaded magazine is just like having a loaded gun.

[Webleymkv]

As a former Illinois resident, my understanding is that this is something of a grey area in the law. I remember back when Makarovs were widely available at bargain basement prices, they were quite popular for this role as they were good quality guns but if they were confiscated, the owner wasn't out much. It is certainly not a stunt that I would reccomend because, as ISP2605 pointed out, you'd basically be at the mercy of the SA if caught.

[gwnorth]

I'd assume too that any half-way intelligent attorney can make a very cogent argument of the difference between transporting a firearm from point A to B, versus routinely walking around anywhere or everywhere with one in a fanny pack.

[ilbob]

I think most cops and SAs in Illinois now realize this method of carry is perfectly legal. The problem is a fair number do not care about the legality, only about making a political point. You have no way of knowing just who you might run into. At present it is best to error on the side of caution.

I think the question of whether a loaded magazine is equal to a loaded gun was put to bed a long while back. Its not, as long as it is not in the gun.

I'd assume too that any half-way intelligent attorney can make a very cogent argument of the difference between transporting a firearm from point A to B, versus routinely walking around anywhere or everywhere with one in a fanny pack. You might think so, but as of this moment all of the known cases in the last few years where someone has been arrested solely for "fanny packing" has eventually had the case dropped or dismissed, although there is an egregious one currently in the system that is still in progress. Granted it was painful for those involved, so unless you are willing to be another test case, it is probably not worth it.

[ISP2605]

I think most cops and SAs in Illinois now realize this method of carry is prefectly legal.
That's an assumption not based on fact and one that could cost a person several thousands of dollars and several nights in jail in an attempt to prove one way or the other.
I sure wouldn't bet my freedom and financial life on someone who is neither an attorney, state's attorney, nor anyone not in the legal field nor from someone who hasn't done made calls to any of the SAs and just assume they know what the current legal feeling is.

I think the question of whether a loaded magazine is equal to a loaded gun was put to bed a long while back. Its not, as long as it is not in the gun.
It's not illegal in IL however it may be illegal in other states. Again, you're making assumptions without knowledge. Delaware Dan posted that and if he is from Delaware he may be correct for his state.

[ilbob]

There is a case before the IL Supreme Court right now that ought to settle it. Its more about whether a center console is a case for the purposes of the UUW act, but the decision may well discuss the fact that the gun being unloaded meant it would not be UUW if it is in a case as defined by the UUW act.

It will be nice to have a SC case on point along with the two appeals court rulings that have supported fanny pack carry.

But, as ISP mentioned, it is best not to be a test case. In some areas they will lock you up for the brownie points.

[ISP2605]

Its more about whether a center console is a case for the purposes of the UUW act, but the decision may well discuss the fact that the gun being unloaded meant it would not be UUW if it is in a case as defined by the UUW act.
Nope, it won't because those aren't the facts before the court. It will only deal with that specific case and the console.

[Doc Intrepid]

"The "fanny pack carry" issue came to light in about 2001. Some were advocating that it was legal, some didn't think it was, most didn't know for sure. My agency was getting called many calls everyday from the public and other LEAs/LEOs asking for an opinion on the legality. I personally fielded a lot of such calls. In order to get a statewide interpretation of how the law was applied and intent of the law we contacted the IL AG. The AG at the time was Jim Ryan who was running for governor. His office refused to give an opinion and deferred to each of the 102 states attorneys. <good stuff snipped>

... The next thing you need to consider is if you get arrested and charged are you prepared to pay the legal fees to resolve the matter. Are you prepared to possibly spend the night or weekend in jail until a judge sets bond? And the last thing to consider is are you prepared for the consequences if the court rules against you and you find yourself with possibly a felony conviction on your record and therefore never allowed to possess a firearm again, have to pay many thousands of dollars in fines and attorney fees, and possibly face jail time. At the very least, win, lose or draw, expect to spend several thousand dollars in legal fees. In other words, before you fanny pack carry make sure you are fully informed of the circumstances and your fully understand the repercussions which may result."Thank you. Appreciate the detailed post.

I'm not sure why someone who wanted to carry in Illinois would not simply go through the process to obtain a CCW permit, however, I don't live in Illinois. It may be an impossible task...

Given the legal fees, court costs, and other negative outcomes involved in a conviction for firearms-related arrests, though, I would think that a considerable amount of jumping through hoops would be justified to try to obtain the CCW permit before carrying concealed.

Sounds crazy, I know...

[ISP2605]

I'm not sure why someone who wanted to carry in Illinois would not simply go through the process to obtain a CCW permit, however, I don't live in Illinois. It may be an impossible task...
There is no CCW permit in IL. Not allowed.

[goodspeed(TPF)]

They make fanny packs for M1 Garands? Time to stock up on clips I guess.

[dav]

It's not illegal in IL however it may be illegal in other states.Yep, the states vary a great deal. For instance, in California the ammunition cannot be in the same container as the firearm, and the container must be lockable. Zipper is not adequate.

[Doc Intrepid]

"There is no CCW permit in IL. Not allowed."Guess that qualifies as an impossible task, then.

(Until the law changes...)

[ilbob]

Guess that qualifies as an impossible task, then.

(Until the law changes...)
Maybe in a couple decades.

[shurshot]

Just tuck a big, long screwdriver (reg, not phillips) in your belt. A great tool, and in a pinch, not a bad self defense weapon either.

[ursavus.elemensis]

That state prohibits citizens from carrying guns. What part of that prohibition do you have trouble understanding? I did not ask if you agree with it, I just ask if you have trouble understanding the rule they have imposed. If it was me, I would not have moved into Illinois in the first place (or California, New York, or New Jersey). But if you do live there, and you know the law prohibits carrying a gun, why would you risk your legal status by trying to play word games with people who are very, very serious about restricting firearms? Work to change the law. Work to change your state of residence, but for goodness sake, why would you risk breaking a LAW? Anyway, the point is that we should all be advocating the responsible use of firearms and the fact that law abiding citizens should be allowed to own/carry handguns for self-defense because we follow the laws and are resposible enough to be trusted with exercising our natural right to self-defense. When we bend words and try to find loopholes, all we're doing is what the drug dealers and gang-bangers do which is to say that the ends justify the means.

Ps. Cracks me up that every single time the letters C - L - I - P are entered into a posting on an Internet discussion forum, someone has got to post the same old stuff about the "difference" between a clip and a magazine. Get over it. The word clip is commonly used interchangably with the word magazine in firearms discussions all over the planet, and always will be. It is common usage to say "clip" in place of magazine and everyone reading the word knows exactly what the writer/speaker means when he/she/it says, "clip." I use the term magazine, but I don't much care if other folks say clip. I know, and you know, what they are talking about.

[Lashlarue]

I get so tired about this PC crap about clips and magazines.I would have been laughed off the range if I referred to my 30 round banana clip for my M2 carbine as a banana magazine. So if clip was correct in 1958, I consider it correct for 2009. If all you can do is mistakenly correct people about word usage, I suggest you get a life..Most people think a magazine is somethiing you read. Only mall ninjas get upset about a gun clip being called a magazine or vice versa..

[Prof Young]

Forum Followers:

Well, I'd say we've generated a lot of heat here and even some light.

Montycop, good point about the difference between a clip and a magazine. Some of us don't shoot so much that we've thought about the difference, but you are right.

As to SD situation happen in seconds . . . some do and some don't. The one time I almost got robbed all I had to do was make eye contact with the guy and he took off. I was lucky. I'm sure there are plenty of SD situation when there is time to put in the magazine and slide the rack back. It is called a rack isn't it?

As to living in Illinois with it's restrictive gun laws, well if guns were my life I suppose I wouldn't live here. In the mean time I don't have any trouble getting the guns and ammo I am interested in, and I belong to the NRA.

I suppose this raises the question of "open carry" and I have no idea what the law is in Illinois, but when I hunt, I'm very much engaging in open carry.

An yea, save for law enforcement there is no concealed carry of a loaded gun permissible in IL. And even if I could get concealed carry I don't know that I would. At the very least I'd need some training. All I know about firearms is what I can read in about and see on the "outdoor channel." I've learned a lot but if I was going to "carry" I'd want instructions from a pro.

As to this topic being worthy of forum discussion . . . well unless you are sure you have the absolute answer to all situations . . . then yea it looks like this is worthy of discussion.

Live well, be safe.
Prof Young

[ursavus.elemensis]

it's actually "rack the slide" but whatever....

[Prof Young]

Urvaurs (sp?)
You made me laugh out loud. Thanks. Good shooting to you.
Prof Young

[Micahweeks]

I get so tired about this PC crap about clips and magazines.I would have been laughed off the range if I referred to my 30 round banana clip for my M2 carbine as a banana magazine. So if clip was correct in 1958, I consider it correct for 2009. If all you can do is mistakenly correct people about word usage, I suggest you get a life..Most people think a magazine is somethiing you read. Only mall ninjas get upset about a gun clip being called a magazine or vice versa..


Here, here, Lashlarue!!! Don't worry about the grammar nazis, mall police, and just overly gorged, basement dwelling, guns and ammo junkies who have to spout terminology corrections to keep their fragile egos intact in between eating their mama's pancakes and planning their next D&D session.

Lol.

****For clarification, I really do just mean that as a joke. It's not directed at anyone. It's just a funny way of saying that I really don't care if you say magazine or clip (although, I completely accept that it might be funny to only me, but I'm ok with that. :) ****

[SundownRider]

go here and do some research.

www.illinoiscarry.org

[cecILL]

Excellent posts ISP2605. It' is certainly amazing how attorneys can twist the language/law around. What if the fanny pack was "specifically designed to house a firearm"? I am most language challenged.

[ilbob]

It' is certainly amazing how attorneys can twist the language/law around. What if the fanny pack was "specifically designed to house a firearm"? I am most language challenged.
Its not really about what the law actually says.

In at least some jurisdictions there is a good chance you will be prosecuted for it regardless and have to spend an enormous amount of money on lawyers, maybe spend some time in the pokie.

Thats just the way it is.

[mrray13]

in MOST southern counties, you won't get prosecuted. we even have a term for that kind of carry, 7 seconds to safety. as you can have a fanny pack, belt looped case or whatever, as long as it's designed to hold the firearm and can be zipped up, and the magazine can be loaded, just not in the gun, but in the same case, one can indeed carry it like that. well, you have to have a valid FOID card too.


yes, some cops don't like it, and will try to arrest you, but in the county where i live, and in the counties i have work/still work as an LEO, nothing will come of it. you will get your gun back, and you will retain your FOID. all bets are off the further north you go, and i'll wager cook county will try to fry your butt.


open carry in illinois? doesn't exist except under one condition, other then LEO, the firearm must be broken down and in an inoperable state. or just broken, as in doesn't work, doesn't matter if it's stolen or not and not broken down......oops, sorry about that last sentence, ignore it, lol....

[ninjatoth]

Here in Michigan,purchasing a pistol is very easy now,no wait period,only felonies or misdemeanors involving violence keep you from buying.But getting a CCW is a whole other story.Even with slight depression,even though you are allowed the purchase,you are denied the right to obtain a CCW.That is what it was in my case anyways,so I looked into the laws for reguarding concealment,and there is only one exeption,and that is you can only conceal on your private property,or if you own a business,you can there also.But for me,if I take one step into the woods outside of my property concealing,iv'e broken the law.I can carry it open in appropriate areas like the woods or a gun range,but if my shirt happens to fly in the breeze and cover my weapon,boom,i'm busted.

[ronto]

I wouldn't live in States like Illinois even if you gave me free rent.

[cecILL]

Ok, if it is legal to transport your firearm unloaded and cased, what if the case had some belt loops? So it would be legal to carry if you "carried" the case but then be illegal if the case were secured with a belt? Or how about a case with a sling over the shoulder? At any gunshow attended, LEOS present, many persons carry their rifles in a case/with sling, on shoulder. There seems to be no distinction between carrying a rifle or pistol. Aaarrrrgh! I just can't seem to make any sense of this.

[ilbob]

Ok, if it is legal to transport your firearm unloaded and cased, what if the case had some belt loops? So it would be legal to carry if you "carried" the case but then be illegal if the case were secured with a belt? Or how about a case with a sling over the shoulder? At any gunshow attended, LEOS present, many persons carry their rifles in a case/with sling, on shoulder. There seems to be no distinction between carrying a rifle or pistol. Aaarrrrgh! I just can't seem to make any sense of this.
The powers that be in Illinois want the people carrying guns to be beholden to them via their paychecks.

Its pretty simple really.

[DCR]

ISP 2605 has it right - it's inconsistent all over the state. I seem to recall a discussion around the time frame he was talking about regarding a man who was either advocating that fanny pack carry was legal, or maybe he had been criminally charged for doing it...? Help me out, old timers - I don't have time to search the archives that far back for the story...

[ISP2605]

The case you may be thinking of was in Winnebago Co IIRC. His charges were dismissed but he also had other problems.
I was involved in the process of calling quite a few of those state's attorneys trying to get an opinion. It was so frustrating to the point we didn't care what stand the SA took, it was just trying to get most of them to take a stand one way or the other. Most were non-committal and didn't want to be on record one way or the other. We had the public and other LE agencies calling us constantly all wanting a consistent opinion statewide. That wasn't to be. Don't forget state's attorneys are politicians too.

[ilbob]

The case you may be thinking of was in Winnebago Co IIRC. His charges were dismissed but he also had other problems.True and true.

I think the states attorney appealed the dismissal of the UUW charges.

I am not quite sure what his motivation is but he ended up getting himself into all kinds of other legal troubles.

Perhaps he just enjoys being in cuffs for some reason. :)

The weird thing is you talk to him in person and he comes off very well. Personable, friendly, reasonable, smart, got all kinds of things going for him. But there is also the 9/11 truther side, and some other things that are troubling that eventually work their way out.

[LaBulldog]

The clip cannot be in the gun, and the chamber must be empty.

This is a clip.
http://kjun.smugmug.com/photos/577273750_nvkZT-M.jpg

This is a magazine.
http://kjun.smugmug.com/photos/577273821_CE77c-M.jpg

Any questions?

[Les Auten]

From ISP2605
The "fanny pack carry" issue came to light in about 2001. Some were advocating that it was legal, some didn't think it was, most didn't know for sure. My agency was getting called many calls everyday from the public and other LEAs/LEOs asking for an opinion on the legality. I personally fielded a lot of such calls. In order to get a statewide interpretation of how the law was applied and intent of the law we contacted the IL AG. The AG at the time was Jim Ryan who was running for governor. His office refused to give an opinion and deferred to each of the 102 states attorneys. We contacted each of the states attorneys. We got answers ranging from "it's illegal and I'll prosecute" to "it's legal and there is nothing to prosecute". The most common answer was "make the arrest, seize the firearm as evidence, then bring me the case and I'll decide on each case whether to prosecute." Not much guidance was it? What we ended up with was in 1 county fanny pack carry would not be prosecuted, cross the road into another county and the person would be prosecuted, then cross the road into a 3rd county and the person would be arrested and wouldn't know if they're going to be prosecuted until after the SA decided. It wasn't any help to the citizen or LEO. It all depended on the particular SA and court.
Since then the AG has changed and so have a lot of the SAs. However I believe if we did the survey again the results would most likely be about the same statewid

I believe this is the reason the NRA would not back the recent concealed carry bill in IL, if crossing the street makes you a criminal the law is no good.