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cloud8a
June 20, 2009, 05:28 PM
We talked before about a girl knocking at your door and barging in, in need of the bathroom. Here is a very very recent example of needing to stay on your toes no matter gender or age.

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Five-Teens-Invade-Rob-Sansom-Park-Home.html

#18indycolts
June 20, 2009, 05:52 PM
so the 3 masked gunmen were hiding behind the girls? :rolleyes:

djohn
June 20, 2009, 06:40 PM
And this all falls back to using common sense,do not open your door for any one unfamiliar.Talk through the door or look out a window if you can to get a view to whom is outside the door.Using a young lady that may be attractive and knocking on the door or whatever is a pretty clever way to get a guy off guard or even a women,but most men are not thinking with his head on his shoulders...;);)Then again some people have all the intellegence and lack any common sense and then wonder what went wrong how did this happen to me.:rolleyes:

Wildalaska
June 20, 2009, 06:47 PM
so the 3 masked gunmen were hiding behind the girls?

The worst are those Girl Scouts...I was reading in the latest issue of Armchair Warrior magazine an article which shows how the spirit of Aileen Wornous is conjured up at Girl Scout meetings to help them with their goal of the destruction of hetero males!!!!! They get merit badges if they bring back fleshy proof of a death (need I add to THAT visual:eek:)


Anyway what is recited in that fact laden news articled quoted in the OP is quite a common tactic...happens every day:rolleyes:...thats why I have Claymores set up along the walkway

WildibethereismoretothestoryAlaska ™

tony pasley
June 20, 2009, 07:57 PM
Well where I live they would be to tired from the hike up the mountian. Second they will trip motion sensors letting me know company is comming. Third the motion alarm on my DVR will alert and show the entire front of the house when triggered.

Zilmo
June 20, 2009, 08:24 PM
Well where I live they would be to tired from the hike up the mountian. Second they will trip motion sensors letting me know company is comming. Third the motion alarm on my DVR will alert and show the entire front of the house when triggered.

When do the claymores get set off?:D

bdturner
June 20, 2009, 08:41 PM
Watch the movie "The Devils Rejects" you will never open the door to a stranger again.

Nnobby45
June 20, 2009, 08:45 PM
The only thing more shocking than the crime itself, the suspects' ages -- 19-year-old James Vallejo of Fort Worth was arrested along with two 16-year-old boys and two 16-year-old girls.



I wish it was unusual enought to be shocking, but 16 (and younger) violent criminals aren't uncommon.

Not to steal the thread, but in a related incident in the early 80's I lived in a Trailer Park (yes, I admit it:D). A gal knocked on my door and when I opened it, she walked right in, went past me, sauntered over to my stove, and said "hey, those shrimp you're boiling?".

She was part of a magazine subscription team. She left when it became clear I wasn't buying and also because they're under strict time limits. In the early 80's, things were different. I hadn't felt threatened and foolishly let her walk right in.

It's not the 80's anymore, I don't live in a trailer court, and I don't approach the door without without a little security.

MLeake
June 20, 2009, 09:59 PM
... but on the other hand, I'm amazed at how many people, particularly men, don't seem to view women as potential threats.

I don't mean this in a paranoid way. I mean this in the sense of a guy who works out in the dojo with a female narcotics cop, and works in an office with a woman who's killed enemy forces in combat (former Apache pilot). One of my rifle instructors at an Army CRC course was female, for that matter, and she can outshoot most of the boys.

I also know that anybody can find a way to secrete a weapon somewhere about their person. A woman with a knife or gun is as much a potential threat as any man is likely to pose.

Note I am not addressing mindset, or statistical odds of an attacker's gender. All I'm saying is "she's just a woman" is a pretty stupid way of looking at things.

supergas452M
June 20, 2009, 10:18 PM
My front/rear door/porch are protected by security iron and my doorbell outside of it is disconnected. If you are coming to my house, come expected.

Nnobby45
June 20, 2009, 10:50 PM
but on the other hand, I'm amazed at how many people, particularly men, don't seem to view women as potential threats.


Amen, Bro!:D

JohnKSa
June 20, 2009, 11:04 PM
My nextdoor neighbor had something similar happen. He was awakened at night by a knock on the door, but didn't open the door since it was late and he didn't recognize the person at the door. Instead of answering the door he went to a window with a view of the door and watched to see what was going on.

After waiting awhile and receiving no answer, the man at the door turned and left. As he did, his accomplice who had been waiting just around the corner of the house came out of hiding and left with him. The accomplice had been waiting just a few feet from the door but out of sight of the door and also out of sight of the window from which the neighbor was observing the first man

I wonder if he would have opened the door had the person knocking been a woman instead of a man.

djohn
June 21, 2009, 12:08 AM
When I was younger, single and really stupid,I seen this very pretty young lady hitching for a ride.I thought hey why not she looks hot typical guy thing and maybe I'll hook up get a date.I just keep thinking how risky it was for a lady to hitch a ride especially a nice looking lady that tends to get more attention.Well not thinking at all about my safety, I pulled over and as she approached the car I noticed in the side mirror a dude also comming up from behind.He was not visable when she was hitching,So I guess he was hidding behind a tree or shrubs and I drove off. Afterwords when my stuck on stupid left I realized the potential danger I put my self in all for stopping for a young lady hitching.

cloud8a
June 21, 2009, 12:17 AM
Im like another guy on another thread. If the doorbell rings and I don't know you I am back to the couch.

MikeGoob
June 21, 2009, 12:43 AM
We had a friend of the family who was robbed. He was a jewelry dealer and some nice sweet women needed to use the restroom. He let them in and when they were leaving the door opened and in came their accomplices with guns. Always a good ploy for criminals...

Lost Sheep
June 21, 2009, 01:16 AM
Do the terms, "Stalking horse", "Judas goat", "Trojan horse" or "Decoy" apply to these tactics? Ancient and well-used tactics and now updated.
Lost Sheep

DougO83
June 21, 2009, 01:39 AM
Why do idiots still open their doors for strangers? If I don't know you or you aren't some form of public safety, I don't open the door. For anyone. Jesus Christ Himself is probably gonna need to show me some ID to get in...

djohn
June 21, 2009, 01:56 AM
Another scarry thing I just remembered is Door stop fraudsters.Here in CT some one was going around as I think it was a utility worker or the like and once inside the imposter would keep them busy while another would steal valuables from other parts of the homes.

MLeake
June 21, 2009, 10:50 AM
.... in MA, around 30 years ago, my dad's cousin had a close brush with a serial rapist. He was posing as a flower delivery guy, complete with van, and his ploy was to pretend he was lost, and ask if he could use the phone to verify the customer's address. My dad's cousin actually let the guy in the house. Luckily for her, her German Shepherd (named "Pup", and the dog was usually a big baby) keyed on this guy and started growling.

This is when the light bulb went on for her.

The guy asked, "Does your dog bite?" She said, "Do you want to find out?"

The guy left.

My dad's cousin called her husband, at work; he, in turn, called the cops, who came out to the house in numbers. They told her this guy had raped four or five other women, using the same ploy.

They also told her, living out as far from town as she did, that she really should buy a gun and learn to use it, due to 20+ minute response times. Yep, Massachusetts, in the late 70's, cops told a woman to buy a gun.

Sorry to veer off on a branch, but opening doors can be a real risk, even when people look like they might belong.

And, to reinforce one of my favorite themes, dogs are good, and big dogs are even better as deterrents.

OldMarksman
June 21, 2009, 11:05 AM
Why do idiots still open their doors for strangers? If I don't know you or you aren't some form of public safety, I don't open the door. For anyone. Jesus Christ Himself is probably gonna need to show me some ID to get in...

Forty years ago, my mother let in a woman who had (really) run out of gas who wanted to use the phone. She was followed in by a man who tried to attack her and who then knocked down my mother, threatening murder. He was dissuaded by Smith, Wesson, and me. Close call.

Different scenarios of this kind of thing (bell ringer and accomplice) have been shown on PDTV. In a recent episode, an intercom was recommended.

Cheap insurance, IMHO. Maybe a closed circuit camera would also be a good investment.

BillCA
June 21, 2009, 01:35 PM
Well where I live they would be to tired from the hike up the mountian. Second they will trip motion sensors letting me know company is comming. Third the motion alarm on my DVR will alert and show the entire front of the house when triggered.

Why not mount an Apache's remotely controled 30mm chain gun covering your front porch? :D

The use of a woman is an interesting ploy, because it also works on the upbringing of a lot of men to be courteous to women. Guys want to think others would help their wives, girlfriends, daughters, etc. when the car breaks down or for the courtesy of a restroom.

I know a young woman who lives her life in "condition white" most of the time. Yet, she refused to let a girl into her apartment for the bathroom ploy. Why? She looked through the peephole and watched her and said she didn't urgently need to use the bathroom. When I asked how she knew that, she said "Simple. She wasn't doing the pee-pee dance that girls do when waiting in lines at the restrooms. Now... consider yourselves "enlightened". :D

ilbob
June 21, 2009, 03:58 PM
If I am not expecting you, don't come by.

I might be willing to make a call for you from behind the locked door.

besafe2
June 21, 2009, 08:04 PM
As others have said if I don't know you I'm not opening the door & I also have a few "suprises" with me.

On the other hand great job by the neighbour in calling 911. This is why community watch works. Neighbours looking out for each other.

tony pasley
June 21, 2009, 09:42 PM
Why not mount an Apache's remotely controled 30mm chain gun covering your front porch?

Because the ammo is to expensive.

Rich Miranda
June 22, 2009, 01:44 AM
We live in an apartment which has three doors that lead outside. We never use the front door because our cars are directly behind our place. All of our friends and neighbors (that we know) know this and knock on the kitchen door (the third door also is rarely used and is never knocked on).

If we get a knock on the front door, right away we know it's someone we don't know (or the apartment manager :D ). We use the peep hole first. If the person looks shady, we say through the door something like, "I'm sorry, we can't open the door right now." They just walk away.

If they look OK, we tell them to hold on a minute (while I get my Ruger P90). If they are still there in the 30 seconds it take me to get the gun (sometimes they leave!) I peep again to check for anything suspicious. Only then will I open the door.

Of course, a knock on the kitchen door is also answered with caution. But that's easier because the door has a window in it and only people who we have told to knock there, knock there.

To stay on topic, we try to treat the caller the same regardless of gender.

Nnobby45
June 22, 2009, 02:57 AM
My nextdoor neighbor had something similar happen. He was awakened at night by a knock on the door, but didn't open the door since it was late and he didn't recognize the person at the door. Instead of answering the door he went to a window with a view of the door and watched to see what was going on...............


Ayoob wrote up a very similar story (potentially) about a knock on the door and an accomplice hiding in wait. The knocker wouldn't leave until the citizen, home with his young son, held his Glock up in the window.

The two teens later murdered a couple of college professors in an adjoining state when they were let in posing as college students. The man and woman professors were brutally stabbed to death for their kindness.

Back to the man and his young son. The next day a grave just big enough for the two of them was found near the front yard.

The plan was to murder people to see what it was like, and travel thru Europe on the stolen credit cards.

I know some of you saw the story.

BikerRN
June 22, 2009, 04:10 AM
Male or female I will try to treat each the same.

In my three defensive encounters women were a part in two of them. The worst night of my life involved a 70 something year old lady and an 8" kitchen knife.

If I don't know you, or expect you I'm probably not going to open the security door. I will talk to you through it.

Biker

dabigguns357
June 22, 2009, 05:50 AM
And people think i'm paranoid sitting around with my gun on my hip while watching everything that goes on through night vision camera's that i set up around my house.

Rich Miranda
June 22, 2009, 10:24 AM
And people think i'm paranoid sitting around with my gun on my hip while watching everything that goes on through night vision camera's that i set up around my house.

Not me. I'd call you smart and prepared.

only1najeep
June 22, 2009, 03:57 PM
I live in a "not so great" part of a medium sized college town. I keep a .38 hidden downstairs but even with it available quickly I'm still not opening the door. When I first moved into my place I was told that a man was going door to door with a lawnmower asking if he could mow for a few dollars, if you allowed him to he would mow and ask for $5, If not he would rob you at Knife point. Seemed stupid to me (we live in an apartment with no grass) But I heard someone fell for it.

comn-cents
June 22, 2009, 04:02 PM
Over the last few months I've finally got my wife to not open the door.
I will open it if I know you, otherwise it stays locked. The two 90lbs dogs barking "bloody murder" helps people get the hint.
I feel it's my job not to be a victim.

Skans
June 22, 2009, 04:36 PM
A couple of comments on this:

I've noticed that there is some kind of sleazy magazine subscription company out there that targets people in drug re-hab to sell subscriptions door-to-door. Someone drops them off, they have to go door to door and then someone comes buy to pick them up. I can generally spot them a block away and most of the time, won't open the door for them.

Once, I saw one of them just standing on the corner of my yard. Now, mind you I live in a spread out neighborhood where most of the losts are one acre or more. So, this looked really out of place. I approached her and asked what she was doing hanging around out here. She explained, and I determined that she really wasn't a threat. If anything, she was being exploited by some sleazy magazine company. So, I left her alone and conspicuously noted the license tag of the car that picked her up. I havent' seen these folks come around since then.

Now, I carry a gun with me to the door, and place it in a spot where i can grab it quickly. I still don't genrally open the door, even during the daytime, unless I recognize the kids or their paraents.

On another note. About 10 years ago I was riding my motorcycle going by a neighbohood. I noticed that another motorcycle was laying in the ditch. I got off my bike and approached the other motorcycle wondering what happened - thinking perhaps it was stolen. Then, I looked about 10 yards in front of me and noticed a guy just lying in the dirt - no helmet and he wasn't moving. It was late at night and I ran to get help. I knocked on several doors, but no one would help. I never asked to come in - just told them to please call 911 or an ambulance. Fortunately someone did. I think the guy lived, don't really know what ever happened to him. Ambulance came, I gave a statement to the cops and left.

The only point is, be careful. Be prepared, but there are times when people do need help. If someone asks you for help in the middle of the night, grab your gun, but dont' forget to call the cops.

OJ
June 22, 2009, 04:37 PM
All this reminds me of a funny thing that happened half a century ago - in kinder times before we had "intruders".

Actually, it was really closer to 60 years ago - I was a medical student, it was a warm Saturday afternoon, and I was catching up on sleep by taking a nap on my sofa. The door was open (as we did in those days) but, the screen door was hooked. The fad of the time was people selling magazine subscriptions citing the most imaginative reasons for their need to get income from their sales.

An attractive young woman rang the doorbell and, still half asleep, I answered it.

Her opening question was, "Would you be willing to help my husband out?". Not quite awake my answer was "certainly, step right in!" as I flung the screen door wide open.:rolleyes:

She blushed a bright red, stepped back, and hurried to explain the help he needed was that he was blind and he could get some medical help from the money she would make if I bought a subscription to one of her magazines.

I declined but had difficulty keeping a straight face realizing the implications of our conversation.

:D

markj
June 22, 2009, 04:44 PM
Another situation where a dog would have helped.

Living out in the country we hav e a different perspective on folks that just drop by. Most get run off, then a call is made to the next neighbor to give them a heads up and so on.

1/4 mile up the road the old folks were working the garden when 2 guys snuck into their house and stole a bunch of stuff, they sold and moved. We now have our own ver of watch. Some retired folks keep a sharp eye and a phone at hand. A good dog in almost every yard too. Then agsain we also have them killer steers, they know whats coming, they know.... dont let em catch ya...

comn-cents
June 22, 2009, 04:49 PM
If someone I didn't know came to my door needing help, I would have no problem calling 911.
But opening myself up for them not knowing what was going on.
What an easy set up. Woman in need, of grabbing your attention so her partners in crime can invite them selves in. No thanks, may sound paranoid but when it comes to my family safety everyone else comes last.
Don't get me wrong, a few months back saw a kid doing a grab & dash at the local 7/11 I visit often. I chased him, he out weighed me by 50-60 pounds. As I chased him and threatened to beat his ... when I caught him he dropped the beer he stole and started to face off with me. So I just made sure he heard the description of him I was giving to the 911 operator. He took off running and he was caught 3 min later. I'm not heartless or afraid of confrontation I just tend to sway to my families safety first and foremost.
Would I have done this with my family in the car? NO... just a call to 911.

Mannlicher
June 22, 2009, 05:01 PM
I can say "NO" to a strange girl as easily as I can to a strange man.

jondar
June 22, 2009, 06:43 PM
Reading these posts is like deja vu all over again. We have some good friends that live in a large city in Kansas. We keep in close contact with them and the scenario described by the OP actually happened to them a few weeks back. I'll call our friends Mark and Linda. About 8:30 AM one morning the doorbell rang, Mark went to the door, a lady about 35 yrs old standing there, hair disheveled, she cried, please help me, my boyfriend just threw me out of the car and drove off, let me come in and use the bathroom. Before Mark could stop her she shoved by him and came in. She kept crying let me use the bathroom so they showed her the bathroom. Twenty minutes later she was still in there. Linda went to the bathroom door and pounded on it telling the woman in a loud voice to come out. She came out, crying, "I have two unattended children at home, you have to give me a ride there, they are all by themselves." Mark said okay, "I'll get the car out" and told Linda to stay with the woman while he was opening the garage door. After he went out, the woman told Linda to go help Mark and she would wait inside, Linda wasn't having any part of that, and she got the woman out into the car and it was a twenty minute ride to where she wanted dropped off which was a shopping center at the west edge of the city. She said she would walk the rest of the way.

When Mark and Linda got home, they found the bathroom medicine cabinet was stripped bare of all the prescription drugs, and in the linen closet Linda's jewelry box had been rifled and several items taken including two items which had been gifts from her children. They called the police and when they described the woman the cop kind of laughed and said we know exactly who she is, she has pulled this four times this month. She has no children and she doesn't live anywhere near that shopping center. We haven't heard whether the woman was aprehended. Even if she was the stolen items are long gone into some crack seller's hands. Mark and Linda made a tough choice, and a wrong one, they believe in doing the right things for people but this time it was their loss.

comn-cents
June 22, 2009, 06:49 PM
There was a story going around about 10 years or so ago.

Guy goes out to his car and the battery is gone.
Note says wife went into labor, my car wouldn't start I took your battery.
Here is 50 bucks and tickets to the basketball game for next Friday night.
So went to the game to find their house cleaned out.
Crooks gave themselves 3 or 4 hours of free rain to clean the place out.

Steve1911
June 23, 2009, 08:17 AM
Everyone that knows me that you don't knock on my door after about 8pm. And if they need to they know to call... or they know they will meet me at the door with at least 1 weapon. I have kids and a wife. Before that you "might" have caught me off guard...but not now.

There is no reason for anyone to knock on my door late at night. If they hope for an "easy score" they would do better to look elsewhere.
:D

pax
June 23, 2009, 09:16 AM
On another note. About 10 years ago I was riding my motorcycle going by a neighbohood. I noticed that another motorcycle was laying in the ditch. I got off my bike and approached the other motorcycle wondering what happened - thinking perhaps it was stolen. Then, I looked about 10 yards in front of me and noticed a guy just lying in the dirt - no helmet and he wasn't moving. It was late at night and I ran to get help. I knocked on several doors, but no one would help. I never asked to come in - just told them to please call 911 or an ambulance. Fortunately someone did. I think the guy lived, don't really know what ever happened to him. Ambulance came, I gave a statement to the cops and left.

Skans,

Good reminder.

We live on a rural highway, have lived out here nearly 15 years now. During all that time, probably once a month and sometimes more often, we've needed to call the police and ambulance for car accidents after dark that happen on our corner. There's nobody else around to do it, and most cell phones don't get signal here. And if we don't hear the accident ourselves, our first knowledge that the phone call is needed is nearly always someone pounding on our door.

I still feel pretty awful about the young man who died in the car that rolled into the ditch across the street a few years back. Accident happened maybe around 10 or 11 at night - we never heard it - and they found his body the next morning at 9 am. Cold freezing night and I think he would have made it, if someone had heard and called when it first happened.

pax

KingEdward
June 23, 2009, 10:19 AM
most people would think twice or simply not open the door after say 10pm

why do some of the same people just easily open the door at 10am

just don't understand it.

keep door CLOSED... PERIOD.

I can look through a window and decide how to proceed.

Mark B
June 23, 2009, 10:31 AM
bdturnerWatch the movie "The Devils Rejects" you will never open the door to a stranger again.

So true ha ha! Thats exactly what I thought of when I read the title of the OP.

MarineCorpsAT
June 23, 2009, 06:26 PM
Just a couple of months ago I was sitting in the living room on the computer and I heard the front door handle being manipulated. I knew the wife and kids were in bed so I went to the bedroom and got my Glock and went back to the livingroom. I verfy that the door is locked and now there is kicking and punding on the door. So I yell for my wife to call the cops and confront the person through the door telling them to leave and that if the door opens they will be shot. I hear a female reply and lookout the window to identify her( We have a neighbor that might come over if her husband showed up at the house) after realizing that I did not know her I told my wife to let the cops know that this person was kicking the door trying to get in and that I was armed and prepared to shoot if it came to that.

5 Cop cars were at my house in 2 minutes and the woman at the door was arrested on numerous charges. One of the officers saw my Glock on the coffee table and commented that her night could have been much worse if she had gotten in. This woman was saying she knew us to which the cop replied "You can thank God you are going to jail tonight because if that door had come open you would be in the morgue."

My wife thought that having the gun drawn on the door was overkill until I explained that we had no idea what or who was out there and that I will always error on the side of caution when it comes to my family's safety. She understood after that and said that she thought the gun was only if they got in the house but then she said "I guess then it could be too late."

Like most here male or female if I do not know you you are a threat until you show otherwise. If you need help say so through the door and I will call the authorities for you. It is sad that we live in times where we can be more open to taking people at their word and offering help if they need it.

Wildalaska
June 23, 2009, 06:30 PM
So I yell for my wife to call the cops and confront the person through the door telling them to leave and that if the door opens they will be shot.

Shot for what:cool: Kicking your door in? Was she a threat? was she committing a burglary? What is the governing statute in your jurisdiction ? Can you shoot someone who kicks down your door and enters without more?

WildimportantquestionsAlaska ™

cloud8a
June 24, 2009, 01:30 AM
wildalaksa
"Shot for what Kicking your door in? Was she a threat? was she committing a burglary? What is the governing statute in your jurisdiction ? Can you shoot someone who kicks down your door and enters without more?"

wait a minute. When someone is kicking in your door and then does kick it in what is the proper response? Especially after you told them you were armed?

Let us say she kicked it in because she was freaking out that someone was after her. Are you not drawing down ready to fire if she is the threat or what was following behind a threat?

In my "jurisdiction" someone kicking your door in is a major threat.

Are you against warning someone who is kicking down your door that you are armed? Are you against being armed at all when somebody is kicking down your door? Are you in a "jurisdiction" where someone kicking down your door is not cause for alarm?

Wildalaska
June 24, 2009, 05:41 AM
When someone is kicking in your door and then does kick it in what is the proper response? Especially after you told them you were armed?

Cover, cower, conceal...and evaluate.......

In my "jurisdiction" someone kicking your door in is a major threat.

I assume you are in gun'em down Texas, where folks can be shot for property crimes

Are you against warning someone who is kicking down your door that you are armed? Are you against being armed at all when somebody is kicking down your door? Are you in a "jurisdiction" where someone kicking down your door is not cause for alarm?

Did I say any of that?

WildlosethetestosteronepleaseAlaska TM

TailGator
June 24, 2009, 11:01 AM
Did I say any of that?

Not word for word, but your post conveyed general disapproval, as did your signature "lose the testosterone please."

Let's look at this post in the TACTICS forum:

Situation: Unknown person, working the doorknob, kicking at the door, trying to get in the house.

Response: Verbal warning, call the police, and make sure a weapon is handy if needed.

How can that be criticized? I know a bit about endocrinology, and I would respectfully submit that adrenaline was much more active than testosterone in the situation, and even then MarineCorpsAT gave a considered, measured, controlled, and responsible response.

Tactically, should he have not considered even the possibility that a stranger beating on his door late at night might have unwelcome intent? Is that a time to have his gun in the safe? Should he not even have called the police. Was a verbal warning out of line?

If his tactics were bad enough to deserve your obvious ridicule, please suggest what he should have done differently.

I personally commend his actions, and hope that I will be as collected as he if I face the same situation.

DougO83
June 24, 2009, 11:18 AM
Cover, cower, conceal...and evaluate.......

Cover...got it. Gun in hand.
Cower...so ridiculous it doesn't even warrant comment
Conceal...in my own home. Got that covered.
Evaluate...Trying to enter my home, uninvited and after being warned of the consequences of entry. Ok...evaluated as threat.

I assume you are in gun'em down Texas, where folks can be shot for property crimes

That's pretty uneducated, but ok. Someone trying to force themselves into an obviously occupied domicile is no longer a property crime. It is now viewed, not only by me, as a threat on the welfare of the occupants.

PS. Why the obsession with cowering? Is this a proven strategy that accomplishes anything? No. Cowering is not going to make a criminal stop. Cowering is not going to prevent, slow, or deter crime. Measured, sometimes violent, response and reaction will. Of course, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, but to suggest cowering is ludicrous at best. Most BG's won't think "Oh hell, that guy Bob just runs to the closet when we try to kick the door in. That's not even worth the effort. Let's go down to Jimmy's house, at least he'll shoot at us."

Brian Pfleuger
June 24, 2009, 11:23 AM
Ok...evaluated as threat. Someone trying to force themselves into an obviously occupied domicile is no longer a property crime. It is now viewed, not only by me, as a threat on the welfare of the occupants.

Or.... she could be running FROM a threat (rapist, mugger, murderer), or she could be freaked out by being in or witnessing a bad car accident and looking for help.... I wouldn't expect her (he/she/them) to necessarily be doing the "logical" thing in one of those instances....

So she finally makes it into your house and..... you blow her away..... oops, turns out she's a mom of 3 that just got carjacked with her kids still in the car... oh well, anyone banging and kicking on your door should just know that they're seen as a threat, you just can't take chances withe these things. That'll teach her.

DougO83
June 24, 2009, 11:33 AM
Or.... she could be running FROM a threat (rapist, mugger, murderer),

Highly unlikely. Regardless, it doesn't matter who the threat is, if someone comes through my door uninvited, I will be very well-prepared to drop him/her/them in his/her/their tracks. It depends on the situation highly, and I will likely repeat this fact: if I am alone, I will be more likely to allow a strange person into the home. If I have additional liability issues, i.e. brother, gf, parents, around nobody gets to barge in the house, regardless of the reason. I have a much greater duty to protect my loved ones than I do myself or anyone else.

or she could be freaked out by being in or witnessing a bad car accident and looking for help.... I wouldn't expect her (he/she/them) to necessarily be doing the "logical" thing in one of those instances....

BS...I would venture a guess that nearly 80% of Americans have cell phones now. You see a wreck? Ok. Call 911. Also, if I tell you "if you come through the door, I will shoot." You should take the time to explain yourself. If I didn't have any family in the home, I may let you in. If family is around, I won't let you inside, but you are more than welcome to sit on the front deck and call 911 when I toss the phone out the window.

So she finally makes it into your house and..... you blow her away..... oops, turns out she's a mom of 3 that just got carjacked with her kids still in the car...

Hmm..."If you come through that door, I am armed and I will shoot." It doesn't get much more clear. I will make every effort not to shoot, even explaining that I will if forced to. If she is the victim of some sort of event like this, what is barging into my home going to do?


oh well, anyone banging and kicking on your door should just know that they're a threat, you can't take chances withe these things.

If I say that you are a threat, then you are. It is my home, my family, my safety that concerns me first. Again, if I tell you to back off, you damn well better do it.

Sorry, I didn't grow up in a generation where, by and large, society was full of good people. I am 25. My entire life has seen the scams and cheap tricks that 'people' pull on each other. I am a little more cavalier when alone, but if I am surrounded by my loved ones, I prefer to err on the side of caution and throw general concern for the whole of society out the window.

Brian Pfleuger
June 24, 2009, 11:37 AM
Highly unlikely....BS...Hmm...If I say that you are a threat, then you are.

I'll let your own words speak for themselves on this one. I should think no further comment necessary.

Mike Irwin
June 24, 2009, 11:39 AM
"so the 3 masked gunmen were hiding behind the girls?"

So, out your front door, either through the door window or the (worse) peephole, you have an absolute view of ALL angles of attack, even those that might be hidden around corners?

I'm envious. I wish I could see around the corner from the peephole in my front door. My entrance door is offset to the one side of the front of my house. The house next to mine is set back, giving a very good hiding spot for someone who wants to decoy his way in.

I have a simple rule.

If I don't recognize the person knocking, I don't open the door, especially at night.

If I DO happen to open the door for whatever reason, it's with a .357 in my hand.

Think I'm over reacting? There have been a number of home invasion robberies in Northern Virginia over the years, several relatively close to my house. And with a title 13 housing development up the street that has known gang issues, you do the math.

TailGator
June 24, 2009, 11:40 AM
Good Lord, can't you people read? He DID NOT blow anyone away! He called the police, gave a verbal warning, and prepared to defend himself and his family IF THE SITUATION ESCALATED TO A SERIOUS THREAT.

That deals with the situation very effectively. If the woman needed help, she got it from the police. If she was drunk, high, demented, or homicidal, she dealt with the police. The man kept himself and his family safe without bloodshed, and IF the woman needed help, he got it for her, and folks on here want to crucify the poor fellow. Maybe we should put him in jail for staying inside and calling the cops when he felt threatened and was unsure of the situation?

Again, this is a TACTICS forum. What tactical suggestion do you have that is better than the action taken? Is it good a good TACTIC in 2009 to open your home at any hour to anyone who knocks?

Am I having a bad day, or this getting to be a serious waste of time?

DougO83
June 24, 2009, 11:41 AM
I'll let your own words speak for themselves on this one. I should think no further comment necessary.


Ok? If someone is beating on my door and I tell them that entry will have some pretty undesireable consequence, like the 12-ga blast, and they continue trying to enter, there is a serious problem. It is all about location, etc. Where I live, there is almost 0 chance of someone beating down my door for any reason. I live well outside populated areas for a reason. I might have a different reation if: A. I lived in a metro area and/or B. I never watched the news and was oblivious to the crime that occurs in the world.

We are, of course, going to disagree on this subject. I will do what is best for me and mine first. That's the end of it for me. If that involves taking someone else's life, that's the price I must pay. Is it glorious? No. Is it desireable? Absolutely not. Every day, when I wake up and holster my duty weapon, I come to grips with the fact that I may have to use it today. I tell myself to exhaust all other options, but it doesn't make me any less accepting of the fact that I may be forced to end a life to preserve mine.

Way to go with the quote chop, btw. It proves nothing. Read the rest of the statement...:)

Hank15
June 24, 2009, 11:50 AM
Ha, all this planning just to steal some electronics?

KingEdward
June 24, 2009, 11:56 AM
just don't open the door.

if someone or something seems odd then it probably is odd.

odd isn't ALWAYS threatening but still just leave door closed.

take position to call authorities and cover door.

if intruder (girl, boy, man, grandma) kicks the door in, then they will
surely see the barrel of the 20 gauge and decide accordingly.

Hopefully they will leave.

If they stay then it is for potentially harmful reasons.

Mike Irwin
June 24, 2009, 12:03 PM
"I assume you are in gun'em down Texas, where folks can be shot for property crimes"

Lodge this in your cranium for later access...

In quite a number of states someone committing a forcible entry into an occupied home is NOT committing a "property crime."

It is considered to be an imminent threat of bodily harm to the residents of the dwelling and can be met with deadly force even if a weapon is not displayed.

For example, black letter law in California's Penal Code:

"198.5. Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or
great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to
have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great
bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that
force is used against another person, not a member of the family or
household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and
forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or
had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred."

At least two dozen other states have variations of what is known as either Castle Law or a "Make My Day" law.

As such, there either a very limited requirement, or none at all, for the homeowner to retreat from an intruder in the home and in many of these states lethal force response is outright sanctioned against the intruder on the LEGAL premise that said intruder is, by his very presence, poses an imminent, deadly threat.

Mike Irwin
June 24, 2009, 12:07 PM
"Or.... she could be running FROM a threat (rapist, mugger, murderer), or she could be freaked out by being in or witnessing a bad car accident and looking for help.... I wouldn't expect her (he/she/them) to necessarily be doing the "logical" thing in one of those instances...."

Yes, and she COULD be Glinda The Good Witch of the West, or whatever that was.

ANYthing is possible.

But, are you willing to bet YOUR life, or the lives or your wife and kids, that said individual, who has just forcibly gained entry to your home, is simply so traumatized by seeing an auto accident that she poses NO threat at all?

Just who would you be more worried about in that kind of hypothetical situation?

pax
June 24, 2009, 12:10 PM
As such, there either a very limited requirement, or none at all, for the homeowner to retreat from an intruder in the home and in many of these states lethal force response is outright sanctioned against the intruder on the LEGAL premise that said intruder is, by his very presence, poses an imminent, deadly threat.

Absolutely true. That's why it's so important that each person should know whether their own state has such a law on the books, and how that law has generally been interpreted by the courts.

See WildAlaska's earlier questions, which were good ones. Do you know the law in your jurisdiction?

pax

Brian Pfleuger
June 24, 2009, 12:14 PM
Yes, and she COULD be Glinda The Good Witch of the West, or whatever that was.

ANYthing is possible.

But, are you willing to bet YOUR life, or the lives or your wife and kids,...

No, I'm not, and that's my whole point. I'm not going to ASSUME she's there with evil intent, I'm not going to ASSUME she's selling Girl Scout Cookies. I'm going to get my family in the safe room, get 911 on the phone and arm myself. The ONLY assumption I'm going to make is that something is happening which requires LEO intervention.

I most certainly AM NOT going to stand there with a gun and wait for her to come through the door so I can justify killing her, or give her a cup of coffee, I'll let LE figure that out.

Getting the law on the phone will solve ALL possible scenarios. If she needs help, she'll get it. If she needs arresting, she'll get it.

Mike Irwin
June 24, 2009, 12:28 PM
"Do you know the law in your jurisdiction?"

Yes.

In Virginia, it's very simple.

We have no Make My Day Law, we have no Castle Law.

However, in similar situations that have occurred over the years, most prosecutors seem to fall back on the customary tenets of English Common Law which treats a man's home as his castle and allows him to defend it as such.

Of course there have been some examples where prosecutors decide to throw their weight around. Those always make the news then fade away.

Wildalaska
June 24, 2009, 12:31 PM
I'll let your own words speak for themselves on this one. I should think no further comment necessary.

Excellent analysis

Cower...so ridiculous it doesn't even warrant comment

really? Cower....definition:to shrink away or crouch especially for shelter from something that menaces, domineers, or dismays

Now how is that ridiculous, except as it may offend masculinity

That's pretty uneducated, but ok. Someone trying to force themselves into an obviously occupied domicile is no longer a property crime. It is now viewed, not only by me, as a threat on the welfare of the occupants.

Hanging was viewed as the appropriate penalty for stealing a bolt of cloth under the Bloody Code. I don't consider my disdain for the bloody nature of the Texas penal Code to be uneducated...perhaps you would care to debate about the political and economic background of draconian laws to demonstrate our relative educations in this regard.....

Why the obsession with cowering? Is this a proven strategy that accomplishes anything? No. Cowering is not going to make a criminal stop. Cowering is not going to prevent, slow, or deter crime. Measured, sometimes violent, response and reaction will.

Well if you knew the definition of "cower" the first part of your statement would have been obviated. Regardless, who appointed you judge, jury, and superhero to deter crime by your "measured, sometimes violent" actions.

It aint deterrance, its self defense

Sorry, I didn't grow up in a generation where, by and large, society was full of good people. I am 25. My entire life has seen the scams and cheap tricks that 'people' pull on each other.

LOL.

WildithoughttwicesoleftitatthatAlaska ™

Wildalaska
June 24, 2009, 12:40 PM
Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or
great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to
have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great

To respond in your exact words:

"Lodge this in your cranium for later access"

Viz: Presumptions are rebuttable.

Of course there have been some examples where prosecutors decide to throw their weight around. Those always make the news then fade away.

And that dose of reality, along with the vagaries of the law and the financial cost of making things "fade away", makes me again scream from the rooftops.....Last Clear Chance...pulling the trigger is the last, absolute last resort.

WildknowyourlawsAlaska ™

cloud8a
June 24, 2009, 12:43 PM
I think if someone was kicking in my door and I took cover under the stairs, in the bathroom, or in a closet, then concealed my weapon, and cowered there, my wife would probably divorce me if the family survived the home invasion.

And she would be right. I offered zero protection to my family. What good would I be to my family if I had such an extreme squishy point of view on home defense? According to that logic an outside the house SD situation gives the BG the right to shoot you.

wildalaska might be a run no matter what kind of guy on the SD/HD front, but I think the majority of Americans disagree with that attitude entirely. The evidence being the implementing of CCW laws and Castle doctrines. Americans do not think running and hiding as a rule is the right thing to do, for a number of reason. Among those reasons, fiercley protecting your family.

Brian Pfleuger
June 24, 2009, 12:54 PM
Why is "cower" assumed to be out of fear? Why is "cower" assumed to have a negative connotation?

What would those who despise "cower" be doing? Standing tall and proud, uttering the words "Come what may..." with the sights trained on the door?

cloud8a
June 24, 2009, 12:59 PM
Wildalaska
"I don't consider my disdain for the bloody nature of the Texas penal Code to be uneducated...perhaps you would care to debate about the political and economic background of draconian laws to demonstrate our relative educations in this regard"

So then the Castle Doctrine is according to you a bloody draconian law. CCW in your car without a license is a bloody draconian law. CCW is a bloody draconian law. you think all these are the result of bloodthirsty masculine insecure men.

I think you have gone a little overboard with the 'getting in touch with your feminine side' philosophy. Masculinity has a purpose, or it would not exist. In American culture there are unwritten rules of honor which men have carried down from the dawn of time. These things have enabled MEN to survive and protect there families through MASCULINE qualities that are unique to their gender. And now in civilized times these have been turned into LAWS in order to continue that survival.

DougO83
June 24, 2009, 01:01 PM
Excellent analysis

Ahh...personal attack. When all else fails, go for the flame attempt stand by.

really? Cower....definition:to shrink away or crouch especially for shelter from something that menaces, domineers, or dismays

Now how is that ridiculous, except as it may offend masculinity

No...why on earth should I have to cower in my own home? That is beyond ridiculous. Where, if not my home, can I find solitude, peace, and protection? Being behind my door is about all the 'cowering' I should have to do. I have no obligation to protect someone who is acting in a manner that is perceived as a threat. That is just not how it works.


Hanging was viewed as the appropriate penalty for stealing a bolt of cloth under the Bloody Code. I don't consider my disdain for the bloody nature of the Texas penal Code to be uneducated...perhaps you would care to debate about the political and economic background of draconian laws to demonstrate our relative educations in this regard.....

Show me where this is in the Texas Penal Code. Go on...I'd love to see it.

Oh, "Bloody Code?" Are we now bringing England into the discussion?

Well if you knew the definition of "cower" the first part of your statement would have been obviated.

I am well aware of the definition of 'cower.' Once again, you come out with the snide attempt to degrade the intelligence of others. :rolleyes: You still did not answer why you are so obsessed with allowing the criminal to have their way. Cowering is hiding. It is crouching in fear or shame. That is all. It is not heroic, it is not a manner of defense.

Regardless, who appointed you judge, jury, and superhero to deter crime by your "measured, sometimes violent" actions.

Always just fabricating away, aren't we? I am none of the above and never made such claims. Protecting my home and property from a threat is a right I have. As I stated before, if my family is around, it is no longer a right, but a RESPONSIBILITY.

Mike Irwin
June 24, 2009, 01:04 PM
"Viz: Presumptions are rebuttable."

When it comes to penal law as quoted, WRONG. Those aren't my words, once again, they are the black letter law of California.

That wording means that the homeowner has the absolute right to act in such a situation and state penal code is automatically on his side, even if the prosecutors are not.

Prosecutors would have to prove that the homeowner acted outside of the confines of 198.5, say by actively luring the individual into the home, or presenting the individual with an open door invitation.

But an intruder FORCING his way into an occupied dwelling? The homeowner is then permitted under law to act as he sees fit in response, up to and including the use of deadly force.



"makes me again scream from the rooftops.....Last Clear Chance...pulling the trigger is the last, absolute last resort."

Did I, or anyone else, EVER say anything to the contrary? I don't see anyone here saying "Shoot BEFORE they start knocking on the door!"


And, I raise the question once again, Ken...

"Regardless, who appointed you judge, jury, and superhero to deter crime by your "measured, sometimes violent" actions."

WHY are you selling firearms that you KNOW have a very high liklihood of being used defensively? That just screams of hypocrisy -- I abhore it, but I'll gladly make money from it!


"Bloody law"

??? Unless you can show a legal citation that the Texas Penal Code is so named, and that doesn't stem from anyone's very active imaginations, back off on such terms, people.

Brian Pfleuger
June 24, 2009, 01:07 PM
I am well aware of the definition of 'cower.' ... Cowering is hiding. It is crouching in fear or shame. That is all. It is not heroic, it is not a manner of defense.


Merriam Webster:

cower

One entry found.

Main Entry:
cow·er
Pronunciation:
\ˈkau̇(-ə)r\
Function:
intransitive verb
Etymology:
Middle English couren, probably from Middle Low German kūren
Date:
14th century
: to shrink away or crouch especially for shelter from something that menaces, domineers, or dismays


Apparently not, since what it means is crouch or hide behind cover for shelter from a threat.

Most everyone would agree that finding cover is of primary tactical importance in a SD/HD situation.

Seeking "shelter" ("cover" in SD) is not out of fear or shame. It is out of SMART.

I'm not trying to be heroic. I'm trying to protect my family AND still be alive AND out of jail when it's over. Seeking a good hiding place while the actual paid enforcers of the law do their thing is not cowardice, it is intelligence.

Wildalaska
June 24, 2009, 01:11 PM
I think if someone was kicking in my door and I took cover under the stairs, in the bathroom, or in a closet, then concealed my weapon, and cowered there, my wife would probably divorce me if the family survived the home invasion.

LOL.......I think she should divorce you for abandoning her.

Anyway, please show me where I advocate anyone abandoning their family to the predation of a criminal

So then the Castle Doctrine is according to you a bloody draconian law. CCW in your car without a license is a bloody draconian law. CCW is a bloody draconian law

LOL.....nice try.

you think all these are the result of bloodthirsty masculine insecure men.

I think you have gone a little overboard with the 'getting in touch with your feminine side' philosophy. Masculinity has a purpose, or it would not exist. In American culture there are unwritten rules of honor which men have carried down from the dawn of time. These things have enabled MEN to survive and protect there families through MASCULINE qualities that are unique to their gender.

Somehow I dont see bloodthirstyness, rage and chestthumping as masculine qualities:rolleyes:

WildbacktomyneedlepointAlaska ™

pax
June 24, 2009, 01:22 PM
Guys, I'm sitting here with my hand on the close-switch for personal attacks & borderline personal attacks.

But every time I start to hit the button ... well, there's enough good stuff here that I'd hate to close it.

So here's the deal: please tone down the rhetoric. No more calling the other guy a GIRL. No more accusations of "chest-thumping" or "bloodlust." Stick with the point under discussion, or go post somewhere else.

And if you find yourself getting hot under the collar, give yourself a break and go do something else for awhile. It's not worth getting ulcers over.

Thanks,

pax

DougO83
June 24, 2009, 01:28 PM
Apparently not, since what it means is crouch or hide behind cover for shelter from a threat.

Most everyone would agree that finding cover is of primary tactical importance in a SD/HD situation.

Seeking "shelter" ("cover" in SD) is not out of fear or shame. It is out of SMART.


Oops...try again:

cow·er (kour)
intr.v. cow·ered, cow·er·ing, cow·ers
To cringe in fear.[/COLOR]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Middle English couren, of Scandinavian origin.]


cow⋅er  /ˈkaʊər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kou-er] Show IPA
Use cower in a Sentence
–verb (used without object) to crouch, as in fear or shame.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:
1250–1300; ME couren; c. Norw, Sw kūra, MLG kūren, G kauern

Related forms:

cow⋅er⋅ing⋅ly, adverb


Synonyms:
cringe, recoil, flinch, quail.

cower (ko̵u′ər)

intransitive verb

to crouch or huddle up, [COLOR="Red"]as from fear or cold
to shrink and tremble, as from someone's anger, threats, or blows; cringe
Etymology: ME couren, prob. < ON base seen in Dan kūre, Sw kura, to squat; akin to Ger kauern < IE base *geu-, to curve, bend > cod, chicken


Emphasis mine...

Wildalaska
June 24, 2009, 01:33 PM
When it comes to penal law as quoted, WRONG. Those aren't my words, once again, they are the black letter law of California.


I suggest you look at the Evidence code, dont have tiime to give you the full reading...its page after page of presumptions....Fell free to PM me and we can go over the elements of the offense and how the defense of justification under the CA penal code is applied, as well as the burden of proof and burden of going forward on each and every element of the offense and the defense......

WHY are you selling firearms that you KNOW have a very high liklihood of being used defensively? That just screams of hypocrisy -- I abhore it, but I'll gladly make money from it!

I'm not again going to debate that with you, not get into tu quoque ad hominems, especially since you have moved into you Mod status.

??? Unless you can show a legal citation that the Texas Penal Code is so named, and that doesn't stem from anyone's very active imaginations, back off on such terms, people.

Really...So it's impermissble here to claim that those portions of the Texas penal law that allow the use of deadly force on those stealing...say...a two dollar shovel from someones yard at night are the functional and social equivalent of the Bloody Code?

WildatleattheretheygaveyouatrialfirstAlaska ™

Brian Pfleuger
June 24, 2009, 01:39 PM
Most everyone would agree that finding cover is of primary tactical importance in a SD/HD situation.

Seeking "shelter" ("cover" in SD) is not out of fear or shame. It is out of SMART.

I'm not trying to be heroic. I'm trying to protect my family AND still be alive AND out of jail when it's over. Seeking a good hiding place while the actual paid enforcers of the law do their thing is not cowardice, it is intelligence.



If cower CAN be out of fear it does not NEED be out of fear. How about addressing the SUBSTANCE of the question, rather than finding countless internet adjectives?

The correct response in this situation is to remove oneself from the threat to the maximum degree PRACTICAL and SAFE. It is neither practical nor safe to stand in front of ones door while someone is trying to break it down, kick it in, or is banging away like a nut job.

The most practical and safest response is to retreat to a safe area in your house and let LE do their job. That would be the job that YOU pay them to do.

Would your wife feel better about your gathering her and the children in a safe area, arming yourself for defense and calling the police or you standing in the open with a gun to address the threat head-on?

TailGator
June 24, 2009, 02:43 PM
My blood pressure is a little lower than it was on at least one of my earlier posts, so I will, a bit more calmly, revisit some points that have not been addressed by those who criticized the tactics of Marinewhatever whose story precipitated this last flurry of activity.

He responded to a person trying to get into his house by taking a position in the living room in sight of the front door, but leaving it closed and locked. WA, that would seem to fit your definition of cowering, wouldn't it? I cannot argue that he should have retreated further, because my home is arranged with one bedroom of the living room within sight of the front door, and the other two bedrooms off of a hallway the entrance to which is also within sight of the front door; the living room is therefore the furthest I can retreat and still be certain that my family is safe. I don't know if the home of the poster is arranged like that, but my parent's home has that in common with mine, and so does that of my best friend, and one of my two next door neighbors, so I am inclined to think that it is not rare.

So he very well may have retreated as far as he could and still command access to the places where his family was. He gave a loud and clear verbal warning and called the police. He maintained his position until qualified law enforcement personnel arrived. If the person attempting to gain access to his home through a locked door was attempting to do so illegally, she was now in the hands of the police. If that person needed help, she had ample opportunity to respond to his warning by verbally conveying her need so that he could evaluate it and respond appropriately, but she chose not to do so. Even though she made no request for any assistance, the homeowner's summoning of police allowed her to request assistance from them upon their arrival.

If we are to discuss tactics rather than character, I have to ask, for the third time, what should he have done differently? He has been harshly criticized hereon, but I have not read a post that suggested a viable alternative to his actions. I will answer my own question by stating unequivocally that I think he acted appropriately and thoughtfully to what could well have developed into a threatening situation.

Thank you, Pax, for your note, and I sincerely hope that this post is taken as it is intended, as a plea to return to a discussion of tactical options in the given situation.

Wildalaska
June 24, 2009, 02:48 PM
If we are to discuss tactics rather than character, I have to ask, for the third time, what should he have done differently? He has been harshly criticized hereon, but I have not read a post that suggested a viable alternative to his actions.

I for one havent critisized his actions, I merely asked him a series of questions in response to his averment to the door pounder that she would be shot

These questions were, again:
"Shot for what Kicking your door in? Was she a threat? was she committing a burglary? What is the governing statute in your jurisdiction ? Can you shoot someone who kicks down your door and enters without more?"

None of which have been answered by the poster.

WildandithinkhedidwellnottoanswerthedoorAlaska ™

comn-cents
June 24, 2009, 02:51 PM
I still don't get it.

Don't open your door if you don't know the person.
Call 911, if she is running from someone and you see this person attacking her/he on your front door step. Put a bullet in them (the attacker)
I don't see it getting more complicated than that.
The End!

There are so many "what if's" that I can think of but it's pretty simple.

People have created this untrusting world and I'm willing to be part of the village to help make it better. But I won't put my family in danger.

This reminds me of the same people who hate the police the most, also scream the most when they aren't there fast enough to help them.

DougO83
June 24, 2009, 03:22 PM
These questions were, again:


"Shot for what Kicking your door in?

Nobody has shot anybody yet. We are discussing whether or not we should be prepared to do so. And yes, you can be shot for kicking a door in. B&E of an obviously occupied dwelling is a situation where lethal force can be justified.

Was she a threat?

If one has drawn their weapon, sought out concealment or what have you, and has decided to call 911, the person is CLEARLY a threat. The average citizen has no responsibility to even attempt to determine the intentions of someone attempting to beat their door down.

was she committing a burglary?

Who knows? It is not my job, or any citizen's job to figure this out. Burglary, per Webster's, is all about intent: the act of breaking and entering a dwelling at night to commit a felony (as theft) ; broadly : the entering of a building with the intent to commit a crime How, wild, does one judge another's intent? I understand that this works both ways. Most assume the affirmative in this situation. It isn't very common for someone to break into a home with good intentions.

What is the governing statute in your jurisdiction?


This is the most important bit of discussion out of all 4 pages. What does your state say? Mine says I can shoot. As I have mentioned, I will try other options first, but rest assured that I am running every scenario, even the absolute worst, through my mind. I don't advocate 'daring' someone to come through the door, but they will certainly be made aware that I feel threatened by their attempts.

Can you shoot someone who kicks down your door and enters without more?

Well, yes, you can. "I was in fear of my life." Regardless of age, gender, number, etc...one can consider it quite reasonable to be in fear of their life if a person kicks, or is attempting to kick, a door down to enter a residence.

It all boils down to two things it seems: Jurisdiction issues and Morality. This is not to say that lethal force in this situation is moral or immoral. I feel that it is a strictly amoral choice. Sure, it has consequences, but I think it is a personal decision that cannot be rebuked or questioned by those not personally involved with the incident. When I read about homeowners defending themselves or another criminal killed by LE, I do not jump for joy and praise the death of another. OTOH I do not pine away at the loss. I am rather indifferent on the matter, the only solace I see in a shooting death situation is that a crime was stopped. Death is a tragic thing, violent death is much more so. I do not hope to deal it out to anyone, but I will if forced into that situation.

If cower CAN be out of fear it does not NEED be out of fear. How about addressing the SUBSTANCE of the question, rather than finding countless internet adjectives?

You were soundly proven wrong, now we are going to discuss substance? :rolleyes:

The correct response in this situation is to remove oneself from the threat to the maximum degree PRACTICAL and SAFE. It is neither practical nor safe to stand in front of ones door while someone is trying to break it down, kick it in, or is banging away like a nut job.

Neither is hiding in a safe room. Many homes are not equipped with one. All the rooms in my home have a window to the outside. Nothing "safe" about that.

The most practical and safest response is to retreat to a safe area in your house and let LE do their job.

There is a small problem here. We call it 'response time.' Police departments have taken budget and staff cuts hard this year. That means less manpower without a decrease in reasons to need police assistance. It's been in the news for a while now...

That would be the job that YOU pay them to do.

I pay the police to do a plethora of tasks. That doesn't make them any less overworked. Even right now, at 1530, if I was to call the local PD, I could be guaranteed about a 20 minute wait on a call. They are busy and they are few.

RevJim
June 24, 2009, 03:29 PM
I must say, I find some of the comments quite interesting! Texas has always had a different culture, some would say a gunslinger mentality. For those who have not lived in Texas or were not born in Texas, it is easily misunderstood. Many laws were written when Texas was a sovereign nation, so they are different than other states.

Texas is indeed a bloody, violent state. We really can shoot people for stealing a $2 shovel, but only at night. So you can imagine that thousands upon thousands of criminals get gunned down every year for petty larceny and shoplifting. Gunfights in the street, bullets spraying across neighborhoods! We really live in the Wild, Wild West!

Actually, Texans pride themselves, not on gun-toting rights, but on common sense and common descency. We do not shoot people for stealing shovels or hats or even cars. In Texas, we know that our stuff is not worth a life, even someone who cheapens his life to the value of a $2 shovel. But we also believe in right and wrong! Our laws are designed to deter crime and allow law-abiding citizens to live and let live.

In theory, one should cower as far from a threat as possible (one should consider both denotation and connotation of a word), but in reality it may not be that easy. When someone starts banging on the door in the middle of the night, it is not always a swift task to get the whole family in one place to cower, seek shelter, and evaluate. I am envious of those of you who can. I would need to carry children from different rooms to a common area. I am sure many of you could do that while carry a gun, calling 9-1-1, and staying vigilent as to the actions of the person/persons banging on my door. I do not possess these qualities. I would, however, place myself between the door and my family. If anyone burst through the door, I would start blazing away Jesse James style! :rolleyes:

Please understand: Texas has different laws because we have a different culture and mindset. Our laws would not work in another state, and another state's laws would not work here. So please do not refer to our laws as Draconian or Bloody, and please do not insinuate that we love to gun people down for petty offenses.

The homeowner in Texas opened the door to strangers. As has been stated, this ploy has been used many times. I have heard of several such attempted home invasions being thwarted by the display of a weapon. Perhaps the homeowner woRarely do I hear of innocent people gunned down in the dark of the night (I can only think of one, and that happened 15 years ago).

I know Texans are weird and we have weird laws. But they work for us!

TailGator
June 24, 2009, 03:46 PM
I for one havent critisized his actions, I merely asked him a series of questions . . . None of which have been answered by the poster.

I am often in your camp, WA, but I have to say that I took your posts as being highly critical of his actions, not the least because you signed it with a reference to testosterone.

Considering the accusatory tone of the responses to his post, it may well be that he has chosen not to participate further in the discussion.

May I remind you, in a friendly way, that neither you nor any of those participants who joined you in questioning his actions and motives, have responded in any way to my questions about alternative courses of actions? Your point that we need to know the laws in our jurisdiction are well taken, but in a forum on tactics and training should we not be discussing tactics? The question, honestly and sincerely, remains open, what other tactic besides taking a defensive position and calling the police do you have to recommend? If you prefer, perhaps I should rephrase the question this way: Are there jurisdictions in which kicking the door in on an occupied dwelling would not be considered a threat justifying the use of lethal force, and if so, what defensive tactics remain in those jurisdictions?:o

Brian Pfleuger
June 24, 2009, 03:50 PM
I pay the police to do a plethora of tasks. That doesn't make them any less overworked. Even right now, at 1530, if I was to call the local PD, I could be guaranteed about a 20 minute wait on a call. They are busy and they are few.

Irrelevant. A tactical position in a relatively safe area of your house is the wise thing to do. Police response 2 minutes or 2 hours. Stay there until the police arrive. If someone attempts to breech the final sanctum, then the use of lethal force is almost certainly warranted. Placing yourself (or staying) in harms way because of long police response time is completely illogical. It is the absolute wrong thing to do. Think about it. If your going to do something dangerous, wouldn't you want help to be sooner rather than later and if you knew help was going to be long in coming wouldn't that be the time when you most wanted to play it safe?

They are busy and they are few, yes. They also drop things like traffic tickets and load muffler complaints when someone is kicking in a house door. Just because it takes them 20 minutes to respond when you call about your neighbor being loud doesn't mean they take 20 minutes with an actual trouble call.


neither you nor any of those participants who joined you in questioning his actions and motives, have responded in any way to my questions about alternative courses of actions?

That is simply not true. I haven't stated before, and again in this post, exactly what he SHOULD have done.

DougO83
June 24, 2009, 04:00 PM
Not even worth the time anymore...I have a special place for ya...

Brian Pfleuger
June 24, 2009, 04:18 PM
Ok you're right.

Stand and fight. Defend your castle. Don't make tactical decisions, don't attempt to find a safer place to defend yourself from, don't worry about whether the person could be an innocent instead of an aggressor.

pax
June 24, 2009, 04:26 PM
Shoulda listened to my instincts earlier.

Closed.

*sigh*

pax