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BillCA
June 19, 2009, 07:37 AM
This is based on a situation in which a friend of mine in another state experienced. I'd like to get your take on what you'd do.

You are at home and it is "trash night". You decide to take out the trash, then put the trash can out by the curb. You're still wearing your CCW pistol, covered with a shirt or light jacket. Additionally, you live in the suburbs, so this is not a rural area.

When you leave the house to dump the trash, you hear strange noises from the driveway. When you look, you see the passenger door is open and one leg sticking out below the door of your still kind-of new 2008 car. Next to the leg is your car's CD player and a piece of dashboard trim. You can hear the whirring of a ratchet tool from inside the car.

You slip to a window and tell a family member what's happening and to call 911. When you return, you decide to confront Carl Carthief to prevent further damage to your car.

You tell him not to move and to raise his hands slowly. He looks over his shoulder, sees you have your weapon (if you'd use it at this point) and says "No." Then resumes his disassembly of your car. Again you repeat the commands and he raises one hand slowly, then drops your car's stereo on the ground. He tells you to go commit some anatomically impossible act and returns to wrenching on your car. Whatever order you give him, he simply replies "No" or tells you to go away and stuff yourself.

Your wife, thinking she's being "helpful" yells from the window that she's called the police and that "they said it'll be about 30 minutes!" [thanks a lot, dear]. You hear Carl Carthief chuckling inside the car and then your car's steering wheel airbag unit lands next to the radio and CD player.

Now what?

TailGator
June 19, 2009, 07:43 AM
I don't think you can shoot the guy with the gun, so what about shooting him with a camera?

scottaschultz
June 19, 2009, 07:55 AM
Why are you even waiting to decide what to do with your gun? Fire a shot, or two or three, into the air. That way he knows it isn't a cap gun or water pistol. And since you are in urban area, this might also alarm some of your neighbors. Perhaps a few more calls to 911 might hasten their arrival... perhaps. If the "gentleman" continues to help himself to your car's interior, just go up to him and place the barrel of your gun against behind his ear and remind him that thus far, you have asked him politely to leave.

Scott

zxcvbob
June 19, 2009, 08:01 AM
Slam the car door on his legs? (there's a lot of leverage there)

Mr. James
June 19, 2009, 08:09 AM
What an intriguing scenario! Well done.

You can't shoot him (at least not in most states), and I don't believe you would be morally justified in using lethal force even if the law gave you the green light.

I suspect I'd do the stupid thing, such as trying to forcibly evict him from the vehicle, probably accompanied by a torrent of profanity. But that would reflect exasperation and anger, not clear thinking. Alternatively, I might give him a liberal marinating with pepper spray to see if I could make the current location too unpleasant for him.

With that helpful update from the wife, you don't have a strong hand to play here.

Perhaps the smartest thing to do would be to document the entire incident on video/photographs for Johnny Law when he finally is able to show up. At least you could enter the footage in America's Funniest Videos, and maybe win enough cash to repair your ride!

TailGator
June 19, 2009, 08:11 AM
just go up to him and place the barrel of your gun against behind his ear

This guy has already shown that he is pretty brazen - I personally wouldn't approach him. He hasn't been frisked yet, and his ear is, along with the rest of his head, in a pretty cramped area where I would have to join him. I'd rather he have my car than my life.

scottaschultz
June 19, 2009, 08:24 AM
This guy has already shown that he is pretty brazenYou've shown him that you have a gun and asked him to leave. He says NO. That's not brazen, THAT'S STUPID!

If you're not going to shoot the guy (OK, maybe that wasn't the smartest suggestion), then start putting a few rounds into the stereo and airbag and whatever else is sitting on the ground. Make it worthless to the guy. But count your rounds carefully just in case you have to place the last few into the "gentleman".

Scott

Kishido
June 19, 2009, 08:34 AM
Baseball bat across the shins, that oughta stir things up :D

Donn_N
June 19, 2009, 08:39 AM
Why are you even waiting to decide what to do with your gun? Fire a shot, or two or three, into the air.


What goes up must come down and you're responsible for what happens when they do.


If you're not going to shoot the guy (OK, maybe that wasn't the smartest suggestion), then start putting a few rounds into the stereo and airbag and whatever else is sitting on the ground. Make it worthless to the guy.

Firing the gun at all may be considered use of deadly force. And rather than shooting up your stuff, why not just pick it up and take it into the house?

Donn_N
June 19, 2009, 08:42 AM
Now what?


Pick up your stuff and take it in the house.

OldMarksman
June 19, 2009, 08:44 AM
Fire a shot, or two or three, into the air.

Where I live, and in most if not all of the other populous counties in Missouri, discharging a firearm like that would be unlawful.

It's also very likely that I would run afoul of a state law (exhibiting the weapon in an angry or threatening manner--there's an appellate court case finding on that).

But most importantly, in my view, I would expose myself to extreme civil liability, with potential losses a couple of orders of magnitude greater than the value of the property, not to mention the insurance "deductible."

supergas452M
June 19, 2009, 08:54 AM
I believe I might put my cell phone on speaker, call 911 and tell the dispatcher an ambulance was needed at my address for a shooting injury. Depending on the reaction of the thief, he may then lose a couple of toes.
I have a legal right to protect my property.

scottaschultz
June 19, 2009, 09:03 AM
Where I live, and in most if not all of the other populous counties in Missouri, discharging a firearm like that would be unlawful.And someone breaking into your car and stealing its contents IS lawful? At least I am trying to protect my property, not steal something that belongs to someone else. So which offense is greater?
It's also very likely that I would run afoul of a state law (exhibiting the weapon in an angry or threatening manner--there's an appellate court case finding on that).I can understand that might be the case if you do not have just cause in displaying your weapon, but you have just caught someone removing the contents of your car on your property. Don't you have a right to be angry and even a little threatening?

There are countless threads on this forum about people having absolutely no compunction about using their weapons against someone who has broken into their home. There seems to be this mentality of "shoot first and ask questions later" if someone is in actually inside your home, so why is there such reluctance to use the same response if you witness someone on your property committing a crime? You have no idea what their ultimate intentions are and if they are armed. Someone breaking into your car is a criminal, so why give them the benefit of the doubt that they are only there to steal your radio?

If I go outside and see someone helping themselves to the contents of my car, it will turn out very badly for them, I promise you!

Scott

skydiver3346
June 19, 2009, 09:09 AM
Wow, this bad guy is really brazen. Even though you probably can't shoot for stealing a radio (in most states), this would be a great time to have a baseball bat close by. Maybe bust up his knee and/or give him an attitude adjustment. We will see what he says then.........

Of course, if he decides to attack you afterwards, draw you weapon while backing up and if he still approaches you: He is toast!

shurshot
June 19, 2009, 09:11 AM
No one's life is being threatened, no one is kicking in your front door.

The smart thing; call police and video tape him, from a safe distance and avoid confrontation. You have no idea how dangerous this guy is, or if he is armed. No property is worth risking your life for.

Gut instinct? I second the bat across the shins. Multiple blows in fact...:D Or spray his eyes/nose/mouth w/a jetstream of Peppermace, the entire can, and see if his attitude improves...

OldMarksman
June 19, 2009, 09:27 AM
And someone breaking into your car and stealing its contents IS lawful? At least I am trying to protect my property, not steal something that belongs to someone else. So which offense is greater?

Doesn't matter. Both acts are punishable. Unless, of course, you were firing in lawful self defense.

I can understand that if you do not have just cause in displaying your weapon, but you have just caught someone removing the contents of your car on your property. Don't you have a right to be angry and even a little threatening?

Persons who are engaged in a lawful act of defense pursuant to section 563.031, RSMo would have "just cause" to exhibit the weapon.

You may use physical force to the extent that you believe it necessary--but someone else will grade you later on the appropriateness of your belief and on the degree of force used, at which time everything will be completely out of your hands.

Could prove costly--better to file an insurance claim.

There seems to be this mentality of "shoot first and ask questions later" if someone is in actually inside your home....

Unfortunately that's true, and anyone so acting unnecessarily stands to lose everything. The evidentiary burden for defense of justifiability isn't all that great, but the law does not give license to commit murder.

....so why is there such reluctance to use the same response if you witness someone on your property committing a crime?


Unlawful almost everywhere, including where I live.

You have no idea what their ultimate intentions are and if they are armed. Someone breaking into your car is a criminal, so why give them the benefit of the doubt that they are only there to steal your radio?

You got it all upside down.

Study this--all of it. Too long to paste.

http://www.useofforce.us/

pax
June 19, 2009, 09:32 AM
Even though you probably can't shoot for stealing a radio (in most states), this would be a great time to have a baseball bat close by. Maybe bust up his knee and/or give him an attitude adjustment. We will see what he says then.........

If it is illegal to use lethal force, it is illegal to use lethal force - and it would not matter what instrument you used to inflict said force.

Here's the definition of deadly force in Washington state, where I live. Betcha your state has a similar definition in the law books:

"Deadly force" means the intentional application of force through the use of firearms or any other means reasonably likely to cause death or serious physical injury.

Whacking someone's kneecaps with a baseball bat is entirely likely to cause a serious, permanent, crippling injury, which is something that any "reasonable" person knows ("reasonable" by legal standards, not an insult toward anyone on the thread).

That makes the use of a baseball bat to kneecap your thief every bit as illegal (or every bit as legal) as it would be to shoot him anywhere on his body under the same circumstances. If it is illegal to inflict serious physical injury or to kill the man, it won't matter what instrument you use to do it - whether it's a firearm or a baseball bat, it would fit under the "deadly force" statute just as well.

pax

bababooey32
June 19, 2009, 09:33 AM
Throw rocks at him...hit him with a shovel...turn the hose on him...a little weed killer in the eyes....I have 4 sets of golf clubs in my garage - certainly one of the 56 clubs would suffice to convince him to move on...slam door on legs...swift kick to the 'nether region.

Finally, I can shoot him if none of the above works. Here in TX I can shoot him if "the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means" (Texas Penal Code - Section 9.42. Deadly Force To Protect Property (http://law.onecle.com/texas/penal/9.42.00.html)), which appears to be the case here.

Edit: Furthermore, Texas' Castle Doctrine extends to my vehicle:

The bill creates a presumption of reasonableness for the belief of a person who takes such action that the use of force or deadly force to protect the actor was immediately necessary and provides that the presumption would be reasonable if the actor:

1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force or deadly force was used unlawfully and with force entered, or attempted to enter, the actor’s home, vehicle, or place of business or employment; unlawfully and with force removed, or attempted to remove, the actor from the home, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or was committing or attempting to commit certain serious crimes emphasis mine

buzz_knox
June 19, 2009, 09:40 AM
You're pretty much screwed. If you pick up the stuff, you are likely to get nailed. If you slam the door, while you may have a self-help defense for the use of nonlethal force in the recovery of property (depending on your state) but you also risk the accusation that you escalated the situation, especially if you end up shooting him.

The best option might be to go back inside, have the wife badger 911 while you turn on every exterior light, grab a camera and start taking photos, set off you car and/or home alarms to wake the world, and start working on your insurance claims.

The real problem is that this individual is not your typical car thief. He is willing to risk confrontation with an armed homeowner (who tend to be of greater concern to theives than cops are) over nothing. So, if you antagonize him, he might decide to pay a return visit no matter what you do. Unfortunately, while nature tends to cull such idiosyncratic predators (they get wiped out when their stupidity gets them into conflicts they can't handle), society tends to protect and promote them.

Tucker 2
June 19, 2009, 09:41 AM
1. Since the perps leg is stretched out below the door still, give the door a good kick holding it closed.

2. Get in the car, start the engine and drive the perp to the lock up. If he resists it's car jacking.

Footnote:

This is a good time to reconsider your choice of weapons. Turn in that plastic pistol for a steel one you could use as a club, should the need arise; like your momma told you to.

rampage841512
June 19, 2009, 09:45 AM
Pepper spray. Always keep it on me for just such a situation.

skydiver3346
June 19, 2009, 09:48 AM
Okay Kathy, let's get real here for a minute. You say you can't use a gun, use a bat, use any kind of "weapon" that might seriously injure a scum bag, (who is laughing at you while he is stealing your car radio right in front of you)???

Yeah, right... Like I am just going to ask him nicely to stop stealing my property. How bout this "PRETTY PLEASE stop stealing my property"....

I don't know about the laws where you live but here in Florida, I do believe you have the right to stop someone who is burglarizing your home/property. Maybe not shoot them but you still have some kind of right to stop the crime in progress. By the time the cops probably get there, this guy is long gone more than likely. Not only that, he will probably come back again as he knows you are a "WUSS" or chicken sh-- and you are easy takings.

Dave P
June 19, 2009, 09:49 AM
Sure sounds like a lot of folks would just stand there twiddling their thumbs, waiting for the po-po.

This sounds like a forcible felony to me, where I think I have the legal backing to stop him with force. Not lethal force, but a tire iron on the shin would surely get his attention.

If I was a little old lady, the advice for taking pictures would be OK, but come on guys - man up and stop this punk from stealing your stuff.

Great idea too about shooting your own stereo so the BG can't use it :barf:. Maybe shoot your tires out while you are at it, so he can't drive away - sheesh, gimme a break!

Wildalaska
June 19, 2009, 09:54 AM
Pee on him

WilddidsomeonesaypeppersprayAlaska TM

scottaschultz
June 19, 2009, 10:10 AM
OK, so I walk outside with my weapon and see this fine upstanding young citizen helping himself to my car's sound system. According to the OP's scenario, the "victim" (and he is a victim because his mother is a raging alcoholic and his father beats him on a regular basis) is aware that I am armed but yet refuses to comply with my politically correct request to cease and desist. At this point, I think it is fair to assume that the only reason someone would refuse to comply with the request of someone pointing a (presumably) loaded weapon at them would be because they either a)have a death wish or b)can stop me from using my weapon before I get the opportunity to use it on him in which case I AM BEING THREATENED.

Either way, I am willing to comply with his wishes.

Why did I bother to buy a gun in the first place, take a CCW class and diligently practice so that I can place 2 COM shots + 1 to the head if not to protect my life AND property and that of my loved ones?

I absolutely refuse to stand by and take pictures of some low life scum bag breaking into my car and hope that the police might eventually catch the guy and put him in jail for 90 days just so he can come back and do it again!

Scott

OldMarksman
June 19, 2009, 10:15 AM
Bababooey, if the crime was committed moare than thirty minutes after sundown, you are correct, Code Section 9.42 would apply.

(Note to non-Texans: don't try this at home.)

However, you overlooked a key provision of the Texas Castle Law:

Sec. 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:

(1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and

(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or

(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

(b) The actor's belief under Subsection (a)(2) that the deadly force was immediately necessary as described by that subdivision is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:

(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the deadly force was used:

(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;

(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor's habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or

(C) was committing or attempting to commit an offense described by Subsection (a)(2)(B);

(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and

(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used.

(c) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the deadly force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the deadly force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the deadly force is used is not required to retreat before using deadly force as described by this section.

(d) For purposes of Subsection (a)(2), in determining whether an actor described by Subsection (c) reasonably believed that the use of deadly force was necessary, a finder of fact may not consider whether the actor failed to retreat.

In Bill's hypothetical scenario, the "actor" was not in the automobile at the time.

KingEdward
June 19, 2009, 10:19 AM
I've thought of this one a few times.

had to pull my weapon one night at end of drive just after rolling trash to street. it was the biggest possum ever and it shot out towards me from under the back of the car. He hissed and turned tail and I put the gun away.

If this scenario (brash car thief) happened on my property, I would probably do the following...

a) have wife call 911 and say someone is on the property destroying our vehicle

b) if time / situation permits I would go inside and retrieve 20 gauge pump

c) at a safe distance between the perp and my back door (in my case about
1/2 way down the side walk toward the gate), I would pump the mossberg
and simply level it at the perp.

My choice at this point is keep my gun leveled from a distance while being close enough to the back door to retreat if necessary.

That's my choice.

His choices are many and I cannot control. He could hear the pumping action and tell me to play with myself. He could hear it and wonder if the next sound was going to be the blast noise a shotgun makes. He could get up, come towards me and draw. He could gather his tools and vamoose off my property.

It doesn't matter to me. I'm on defense and I will not shoot him for car damage. Now if he charges me then all bets are off.

If the cops show up while he is knee deep in my car and I am 60 feet away with my shotgun, then my wife has identified me and my position.

The law will sort it out from there.

Donn_N
June 19, 2009, 10:40 AM
Why did I bother to buy a gun in the first place, take a CCW class and diligently practice so that I can place 2 COM shots + 1 to the head if not to protect my life AND property and that of my loved ones?


I don't know, but do the laws of your state allow you shoot someone to protect your property? If you don't know, you might want to check into it.

OldMarksman
June 19, 2009, 10:44 AM
OK, so I walk outside with my weapon and see this fine upstanding young citizen helping himself to my car's sound system. According to the OP's scenario, the "victim" (and he is a victim because his mother is a raging alcoholic and his father beats him on a regular basis) is aware that I am armed but yet refuses to comply with my politically correct request to cease and desist. At this point, I think it is fair to assume that the only reason someone would refuse to comply with the request of someone pointing a (presumably) loaded weapon at them would be because they either a)have a death wish or b)can stop me from using my weapon before I get the opportunity to use it on him in which case I AM BEING THREATENED.

Scott, you evidently have not read the link I posted. It also appears that you didn't pay attention during your Missouri CCW class. You cannot point a gun at anyone (when you are outside of your domicile or automobile) unless you or a third person are in imminent danger of death, serious physical injury, or any forcible felony (felony involving the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual).

And the only "requests" that you can lawfully enforce with a threat of deadly force, or with deadly force itself, are (1) that a perp not enter your occupied dwelling or automobile or (2) if he reasonably presents an imminent danger, that he stop advancing toward you or a third person.

The remedies (against you) are both criminal and civil.

Why did I bother to buy a gun in the first place, take a CCW class and diligently practice so that I can place 2 COM shots + 1 to the head if not to protect my life AND property and that of my loved ones?

If you bought your gun to protect your property in Missouri, you might have gone to Casablanca for the waters ("Casablanca is in the desert." "I was misled.")

I absolutely refuse to stand by and take pictures of some low life scum bag breaking into my car and hope that the police might eventually catch the guy and put him in jail for 90 days just so he can come back and do it again!

I suppose you could go out unarmed and try a full nelson, but I'd rather submit a claim. Safer.

Mr. James
June 19, 2009, 11:12 AM
pee on him.

Figuratively, or literally? :D

This would probably work - could you sit still while a man micturated all over you? Thought not!

sakeneko
June 19, 2009, 12:02 PM
I don't think you can shoot the guy with the gun, so what about shooting him with a camera?

That's not a bad idea, if you're sure he won't then try to attack you.

(JOKING)

You could also call some big, tough friends to come and forcibly evict him from the vehicle, preferably in a manner painful and undignified to him. You could point a stereo at him and play the kind of music he likes least. (I recommend classical, Gregorian chant, or Muzak if you have it.)

I also might consider asking the hellfire-and-brimstone preacher at a good local Bible-believing church to come preach to the guy, or simply put on that persona and do it myself, but I don't know if you'd want to. (EVIL grin)

(/JOKING)

What you do *not* do unless he has a weapon and is threatening you is shoot him or threaten to shoot him. The life of any human being, even one that's behaving more like a cockroach than a man, is worth more than a piece of property. I'd say this regardless of whether the law would let you get away with shooting him or not; this is a moral issue, not a legal issue.

Brian Pfleuger
June 19, 2009, 12:12 PM
You cannot point a gun at anyone (when you are outside of your domicile or automobile) unless you or a third person are in imminent danger of death, serious physical injury, or any forcible felony (felony involving the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual).

That's not always true. There are places that allow for the threat of escalating force, including the presentation of a gun, even when the actual use of the gun would not yet be justified.


It would be perfectly justifiable to use a considerable level of non-deadly force to stop this guy, in most places. Slamming the door on his leg would be a possible starting place. Personally, I'd probably start with a camera. I'd possibly follow him when he left. All "possible" I say because it would depend on an analysis of the unfolding situation and surroundings.

Heck, I might even call my neighbors and say "Hey, come out here and give me a hand with this guy." In NY state, preventing a trespasser from leaving your property by use of force is legal.

Hornett
June 19, 2009, 12:53 PM
Tie a rope (or better a zip tie) around his legs while he is working.
I have some of those 12 to 18 inch zip ties in my garage.
Now that he is immobilized, I could drag him out by his tied together legs.

Then pee on him.
HAHA +1 WildAlaska

svaz
June 19, 2009, 01:30 PM
Holster the gun & bust out the camera (w/ flash), or better yet, the high-capacity assault filming device, err, I mean the camcorder.

If he's not an immediate threat to you, or your family, and you assault him (and I would dearly love to slam the door on his leg), you will probably end up getting sued, losing your home instead of your radio - welcome to America.

OldMarksman
June 19, 2009, 01:39 PM
It would be perfectly justifiable to use a considerable level of non-deadly force to stop this guy, in most places.

Yes indeed.

My comment about not pointing a gun pertained to Missouri, where scottashulz lives. It applies in a lot of places, including Arizona, to name one.

One can use reasonable physical force to protect property in Missouri, but there's no protection against civil liability when you do that.

In NY state, preventing a trespasser from leaving your property by use of force is legal.

Interesting. In most places you cannot prevent a trespasser from leaving, the reason being that such an act defeats the purpose of the law against trespassing.

scottaschultz
June 19, 2009, 01:40 PM
OldMarksman, I know you are only trying to help and I really appreciate the fact that you are citing examples of Missouri law, but I think it all comes down to one's perception of what constitutes being threatened.

Yes, I know what the law says, but I gotta tell ya, if I see someone on my property that does not belong there doing something they are not supposed to do, I have a real problem with standing by watching them violate my rights and hoping that justice might eventually one day be served.

Scott

Glenn E. Meyer
June 19, 2009, 01:49 PM
The reason for learning the laws and training is so that you can overcome that tendency to have a 'real problem'. If you think the best outcome is emotionally satisifying as compared to having the best rational outcome and consequences, don't complain if you do get into legal trouble.

One can have a real problem with lots of things - doesn't mean you can shoot 'em up.

ezenbrowntown
June 19, 2009, 01:56 PM
I believe my game plan would be to stay put, with the gun still aimed at the guy. To be at my car, he's in the garage of my house, so his only way out would be through me. I'd verbalize any movement in my direction will be considered a threat and I will shoot. The guy either stays in the car until the cops show up or tries to come through me to escape, and I shoot.

Brian Pfleuger
June 19, 2009, 02:00 PM
Interesting. In most places you cannot prevent a trespasser from leaving, the reason being that such an act defeats the purpose of the law against trespassing.

See? NY's not as backasswards as some people think it is... always.;)

35.20
2. A person in possession or control of any premises, or a person
licensed or privileged to be thereon or therein, may use physical force
upon another person when he or she reasonably believes such to be
necessary to prevent or terminate what he or she reasonably believes to
be the commission or attempted commission by such other person of a
criminal trespass upon such premises. Such person may use any degree of
physical force, other than deadly physical force, which he or she
reasonably believes to be necessary for such purpose, and may use deadly
physical force in order to prevent or terminate the commission or
attempted commission of arson, as prescribed in subdivision one, or in
the course of a burglary or attempted burglary, as prescribed in
subdivision three.

This person clearly falls under the "criminal trespass" definition which is different, at least in NY, than simply "trespass".

wickedrider
June 19, 2009, 02:02 PM
In my jurisdiction, you can never take a life in the defense of property. You may defend life only.

I don't know if suburban means that you there aren't any neighbors. However, if there are after calling the police, have your wife call the neighbors to see whether she can enlist them in keeping track of the culprit. Take your phone and stay within a safe distance if possible and stay on the phone with 911 and try to give them as much info as possible. If at all possible follow culprit whether on foot or in a vehicle, if you can do it safely. Also, the idea of a camera or camcorder is excellent if you can do that.

Donn_N
June 19, 2009, 02:34 PM
I believe my game plan would be to stay put, with the gun still aimed at the guy. To be at my car, he's in the garage of my house, so his only way out would be through me. I'd verbalize any movement in my direction will be considered a threat and I will shoot. The guy either stays in the car until the cops show up or tries to come through me to escape, and I shoot.


Another poster willing to kill to protect property. Amazing and a more than a little scary.

Bailey Boat
June 19, 2009, 02:39 PM
I can't speak to other states since I live in NC but breaking into someone's car and stealing stuff will get you a free can of whoop ass opened and served. I'm lucky that my vehicles are garage kept so the chance is unlikely but in the event it did occur I would have to serve up said can of WA. I'm late 50's and ain't as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever was....... I've worked too damned hard for what little I have and if you're going to take it then you're going to have to work for it.......just like I did....

markj
June 19, 2009, 02:50 PM
In my case, I would turn my 4 dogs on him. After they got thru with him.....

Why complicate things? I would never shoot someone over a car radio, that is why I have insurance.

mskdgunman
June 19, 2009, 03:05 PM
I vote for dumping a can of pepper spray on him. It may take a while to get the car to a point where you can drive it and not have your eyes water but it would probably make it hard for they guy to finish yanking your stereo. We'd see how things develop after the application of the liquid fire to determine if we take things to the next level. Once you spray the guy, things may escalate quickly so I'd have a firearm in hand and the cops in route.

I'm also partial to the baseball bat accross the shins:D

Dwight55
June 19, 2009, 03:54 PM
Since I don't conveniently have pepper spray in my house, . . . that option would not be available.

But I do have ammonia, . . . and I have clorox bleach. I have several cans of aerosol brake cleaner, . . .

I think I could entice him into getting the heck out of my vehicle.

And after all, . . . it is my vehicle, . . . I am entitled to clean it, . . . too bad he was laying where I was cleaning.

May God bless,
Dwight

OldMarksman
June 19, 2009, 03:59 PM
Another poster willing to kill to protect property. Amazing and a more than a little scary.

Yes it is. Even more amazing to me is that they would commit to virtual paper a statement that they would commit what would almost certainly be judged to constitute a crime in almost all states.

Nothing like handing the prosecutor a damaging piece of incriminating evidence to make his score higher.

buzz_knox
June 19, 2009, 04:01 PM
In my case, I would turn my 4 dogs on him. After they got thru with him.....

Why complicate things? I would never shoot someone over a car radio, that is why I have insurance.

I know you're kidding but for those who might take the comment seriously, use of a pack of dogs (especially the type that can "get thru" with someone) can and most likely will constitute deadly force. There've been successful prosectutions on the principle of a dog as a lethal instrument, no different than a pistol or blade.

hogdogs
June 19, 2009, 04:06 PM
Kick the door on Carl's leg! Jerk door open, grab Carl's leg and drag him out... pummel him about the head and face until compliance is garnered...
Stand on throat until the cops arrive:D
Brent

OldMarksman
June 19, 2009, 04:07 PM
I thought this post by David Armstrong on 05 June on another thread said it very well:

Rather silly to use deadly force to protect your property, for example, if you are going to lose all your property because you used deadly force.

TEDDY
June 19, 2009, 04:56 PM
thats why there are so many thieves,people to cowered to take any action.
but I think you will find attitudes are changing.
now I wonder what would happen to the smart ass if you fired one next to his ear.
in my county there are 4 deputies for the entire county.the sheriff sort of figures you have to take care of your self.and the AG backs deadly force.
I think most of you should get rid of your guns and just let people help themselves.it would be better for the perp and you would not have to confront them.:rolleyes: :eek:

KLRANGL
June 19, 2009, 05:16 PM
thats why there are so many thieves,people to cowered to take any action.
I'm pretty sure the lack of personal action is not the cause of an increase in theft... That's a "garbage cause flys" argument if I've ever heard one...

In a situation like this, you got to weigh the risks and the benefits. I have no problem with someone going out there and trying to stop the guy, but to me it just isn't worth it. I'll confront him, but if he just says go away and keeps going at it, I'll let him. Car radios are a dime a dozen anyway...

BillCA
June 19, 2009, 06:18 PM
Wow... lots of discussion about what you can't do -- which most of us know by now.
A few options ranging from urinating on him¹ to pepper spray to weed killer. Even dogs.² Most popular seems to be whacking him in the leg with a bat.

I've also noted that some people like to criticize the posts of others but never offer a solution either.

My friend used a non-lethal option that's often available in your average home.
I want to see if anyone thinks of it.

One friend I sent this to had the most creative solution.
Living in Nevada, his son has a nice collection of about 8 tarantulas³... :eek:


¹ Wild: It's probably best to open the driver's door so you can whiz in his ear.
² Attack Chihuahua anyone? Most effective up a pants leg. :D
³ Yeah... I'd come out of that car like a flippin' rocket too.

Wildalaska
June 19, 2009, 06:24 PM
My friend used a non-lethal option that's often available in your average home.
I want to see if anyone thinks of it.

Sigh...wait till hes distracted a bit, fill your hand full of Hot Sauce...rub in eyes...

Or shampoo....

Or Fire extinguisher

Then when he is rolling around on the ground, puke in his face. Then kick him in the oysters as hard as you can

WildhewillsayuncleAlaska ™

James K
June 19, 2009, 06:28 PM
Trying to subdue or arrest him by force could lead to your losing the gun, which could be either bad or very, very, bad.

I wonder if it would be considered excessive force if some 250 pound force (me), while using persuasion and sweet reason, accidentally stumbled into the car door and broke the guy's legs. Of course the door would be damaged, but I would explain that I do have this problem with tight shoes, and...

Jim

Mike in VA
June 19, 2009, 06:36 PM
I'd be inclined to close the door on his leg and lean on it until the cops arrived (I'm 6'3", 245#), & have the wife hit the panic button on the alarm and call the neighbors to come help (I have good neighbors).

Gun would be last resort if the guy was a threat and coming at me. I would do what any "prudent man" would do - assume that someone coming at an armed man after being reapeatedly, loudly warned off - would try to take my weapon from me and use it on me, and I would respond "appropriately" . . .

KLRANGL
June 19, 2009, 06:47 PM
My friend used a non-lethal option that's often available in your average home.
I want to see if anyone thinks of it.
Oh the suspense! :D
Garden hose?

zxcvbob
June 19, 2009, 06:50 PM
Aerosol air freshener?

wahsben
June 19, 2009, 07:14 PM
Did your friend use a dirty diaper?

Wildalaska
June 19, 2009, 07:16 PM
Aerosol air freshener?

Ouch. I didnt say Oven Cleaner because that can cause permanent damage.

WildvinegarisgoodasisalcoholandwhiskeyAlaska ™

pax
June 19, 2009, 07:27 PM
From Florida statute 776.06
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/STATUTES/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0776/ch0776.htm

776.06 Deadly force.--

(1) The term "deadly force" means force that is likely to cause death or great bodily harm ...

Skydiver, if you will reread my first post, I expressed no opinion whatsoever on what the homeowner should do. I only pointed out that whacking the robber's knees with a baseball bat was every bit as legal - or as illegal - as shooting him right through the heart under the same circumstances. And I stand by that, even for those who live in Florida.

pax

Brian Pfleuger
June 19, 2009, 07:37 PM
Is there a standard legal definition of "great bodily harm"?

Certainly the home owner has every right to get physical with the BG. If you grab him by the leg and drag him out of the car he could hit his head on the ground, potentially under some circumstance, somewhere, a fatal injury. Is that "great bodily harm"?

Considering that virtually ANY action by the home owner could, under some conceivable circumstance prove fatal or severely injury the BG then it seems as if such a strict understanding of the term would render the home owner legally impotent. I mean, you could kick the guy in the leg and cause a blood clot that kills him. There has to be a reasonable continuum between standing there with a lemonade for the guy and shooting him in the face.

pax
June 19, 2009, 07:46 PM
peetzakilla,

It varies from state to state, but the commonlaw understanding of "great bodily harm" would include any disabling or crippling injury that lasts. A broken finger would probably not qualify; a broken skull probably would. (In my jurisdiction, a cop last year told me any broken bone would definitely qualify - but he was trying to scare the snot out of me when he said it, so I'm not sure that our local prosecutor's office would agree.)

It would be measured by the "reasonable" standard: what would an ordinary person reasonably expect to happen to him physically when you whacked the guy's knees with a baseball bat? ... when you shot him? ... when you dragged him out of the car? ... when you grabbed him by the scruff of his collar and shoved him up against the wall? ... when you pepper sprayed him? ... when you Tased him?

Of course there are always freak accidents, but a "reasonable" person would realistically expect serious injuries or even a fatality from some of those actions, and would realistically expect only temporary or transient injuries, or no injury at all, from the others.

pax

skydiver3346
June 19, 2009, 08:17 PM
Pax's quote: "I expressed no opinion on what the home owner should do"...

Of course you did PAX. That is exactly why I commented on your response to my comment. You enlightened us about the Florida statutes concerning what would happen if someone actually used a baseball bat on some sorry SOB (who is laughing at the man while stealing his radio). You compared using a bat on the thief as the same as shooting him through the heart!!
Puleeeeese..... Now let's see here: You can't use a gun on him, you can't use a bat on him, you can't use anything on him, (because it is excessive use of force, etc). You would not have posted it if you didn't feel that way about the situation. Of course, that is your right to express those beliefs and quote the statues (as to what we can and can't do)...... I respect your right to say it, I just don't happen to agree with you.

We are losing our individual rights as a free and law abiding citizens in this country. When you can't respond to a criminal who is committing a felony againist you, then where are we heading in the long run?

If that scum bag thief would have laughed at me (while stealing my radio from my car) I promise you, I would have taken care of business immediately. My baseball bat, would be very busy giving that low life a serious attitude adjustment. It's not a macho thing, but rather a principle thing. I just don't believe you can commit crimes like this and just walk away laughing at the victims. No way would I ever let that happen. I just wasn't raised that way. This guy is going down, one way or another. Hopefully the police can get there before it goes south, way down south............

OldMarksman
June 19, 2009, 08:47 PM
We are losing our individual rights as a free and law abiding citizens in this country. When you can't respond to a criminal who is committing a felony againist you, then where are we heading in the long run?

Losing our individual rights? Some years ago a law abiding citizen could not carry a weapon in Florida or where I live, and now we can.

If that scum bag thief would have laughed at me (while stealing my radio from my car) I promise you, I would have taken care of business immediately. My baseball bat, would be very busy giving that low life a serious attitude adjustment. It's not a macho thing, but rather a principle thing. I just don't believe you can commit crimes like this and just walk away laughing at the victims. No way would I ever let that happen. I just wasn't raised that way. This guy is going down, one way or another. Hopefully the police can get there before it goes south, way down south............

Certainly an expeditious way to ensure the loss of individual rights and personal freedom by not abiding with the law.

supergas452M
June 19, 2009, 09:07 PM
Well said Scott.

pax
June 19, 2009, 09:17 PM
Skydiver,

I'm sorry you do not like what the law says about use of force.

Again, I've expressed no personal opinion here - only told you what the law actually says. If you hate the law, work to change it. But I think you'll find most people agree that dead is dead (in the immortal words of Archie Bunker, "Wouldja rather they wuz pushed outta windows, little girl?") and maimed is maimed regardless of the instrument used to inflict the damage - so most folks are probably going to be happy to hear that the law makes no distinction between maiming someone with a baseball bat or maiming them with hobnail boots or maiming them with a golf club or maiming them with a firearm.

Me? I agree with Archie Bunker. ;)

pax

skydiver3346
June 19, 2009, 09:31 PM
What the hell are you suggesting, do nothing? Just call the police and sit there while the thief is robbing you blind (right in front of you)?

Your quote kills me Old Marksman: "Certainly an expeditious way to ensure the loss of individual rights and personal rights by not abiding by the law".... So someone can rob you and you can't do a damn thing about it but call the police? What about the guy coming back later and doing something worse to you next time? The way you explain it, you would probably help them load up the goods they are stealing from you. As of yet, I have not read one word about what you would do in this situation: All you keep saying is what will happen, if I do something to the poor thief...

I have to believe folks, that the law is on the side of the victims to some degree (and if its not, then we are in deep doo doo). I respect the law and I believe that the law is on our side. Victims have rights too and we just can't let the bad guys of the world abuse citizens and nothing is ever done about it. No way in my book would I let that happen, (that's just me).

I just would have to do something besides a phone call in this scenario. But I guess that is the difference between you and me. I don't ever want to start any trouble with anyone, but I will not be robbed (especially right in front of me) and do nothing about it. Sorry....but that is the way it is.

hogdogs
June 19, 2009, 09:35 PM
Skydiver, Have you failed to be up to speed on what you are legally allowed to do? It is public info in florida and if it is not a "violent felony" you cannot detain or use force to stop the crime so you would be charged with crimes and some are a felony... Shredding the car is not in that description.
Brent

buck9
June 19, 2009, 09:38 PM
I do not have a ccw so the gun is out. I would find a stick, many laying around my driveway. Yell hey honey let the dogs out. As my two 100 pound male Boxers came rushing out the door I would wave the stick and say get it boys and then toss it in the car.

skoro
June 19, 2009, 09:45 PM
Now what?


Put away the gun. Replace it with a sledge hammer. Aim at the creep's ankles. Fire away.

skydiver3346
June 19, 2009, 09:50 PM
Wow hogdogs, I thought you might be a little tougher on the thief than that, (from your past threads).
At any rate, let me ask you, "what exactly would you do if you heard and saw someone stealing equipment from your vehicle and when you approached him, he just laughed at you and went on ripping your radio out"?? Just make a phone call, right?

I live pretty much out in the boonies and the police would take a long time to get to my home.

rantingredneck
June 19, 2009, 09:55 PM
Take the bag of trash up to your car, open top and dump it all over the guy.

Chances are he ain't gonna like the smell.

hogdogs
June 19, 2009, 10:08 PM
I would later inform the officers that he got his face beat in when he exited my truck (cars are for city slickers) after I politely asked him to stop tearin up the truck and kindly leave my land. "officer, he then rushed out and approached with clenched fists and jist a cussin me, my wife and my momma! So I took him down..." Can't be lumpin' him up or shooting him as he lays across the car seat though!
Brent:cool:

skydiver3346
June 19, 2009, 10:11 PM
Okay, what if he is bigger and tougher than you and kicks your ass instead? Then what are you going to do?

From the original post, this perp laughed at the home owner even as the owner held a gun on him... Uh, I gotta believe this is one tough hombre and/or a nut job. Either way, you are going to get a butt whipping just fighting him (even if you win).

Wildalaska
June 19, 2009, 10:16 PM
Okay, what if he is bigger and tougher than you and kicks your ass instead? Then what are you going to do?

The only person tougher than the Hog is Spiff...:D

WildyaeverseeapicofhimwowAlaska TM

hogdogs
June 19, 2009, 10:28 PM
Bigger and tuffer has been the demise of many who wish to take on the smaller and determined nut job like me. If sober, I am like a 30 pound pitbull lookin' at a hundred pound dog... Lemme at 'em!
I never really go lookin' to scrap but rarely walk away from one. If on my place and involving my transportation.... IT'S ON!!! The laughin BG has no chance as he thinks his condescending chuckle is gonna make me walk away... WRONG!!! A solid jerk of his ankles puts him on his back and I immediately go to droppin' bombs... Heck I wouldn't even have time to size him up. I treat everyone equal... like a 2,000lb bull.

But if he kicks my butt... he wins! Simple really, win some lose some just don't ever want my record to be upside down.
Brent

skydiver3346
June 19, 2009, 10:45 PM
Hey Hogdogs,
I would want you on my side any day of the week (if I got in some trouble).

Us Floridians have to stick together... Especially nowadays since I am getting to be an old fart and not as scrappy as I used to be (like back in the day). So, with that said, I would need that baseball bat againist the "laughing thief" if you weren't around to help me out.....

Donn_N
June 19, 2009, 10:47 PM
But if he kicks my butt... he wins! Simple really, win some lose some just don't ever want my record to be upside down.


And if he wins by shooting you in the head? Still all good?

hogdogs
June 19, 2009, 10:56 PM
Donn, I reckon so... we all gonna go someday. But thus far none of the lead sent my way ever hit me. If he hasn't already got the gun in hand, he ain't got much chance of bringing it to bare.
And if he does have it visible I am free to use any force i wish against the armed criminal brandishing a weapon on my property.
Brent

pax
June 19, 2009, 11:32 PM
Skydiver,

Again, I've suggested nothing at all.

I've only told you what the law is.

pax

BikerRN
June 20, 2009, 02:44 AM
Going back to the original post, four pages ago, here's my response.

If I'm at home, I am off duty. Therefore I have no legal duty to intervene and knowing that my agency considers any actions taken off duty as not being within the scope of my employment, I'm making some popcorn and watching a movie while I wait for the On Duty LEO's.

Heck, the stuff in the ride is insured. I doubt many people outside of law enforcement have considered that the badguy may be non-compliant. I'm sort of chuckling to myself over this scenario. :)

Me, I'd be looking for the Insurance Company to "make whole" my ride, and looking forward to it too. As long as the industrious disadvantaged individual doesn't make any actions that I perceive as threatening harm to me or a loved one he can have whatever he wants when I'm not working.

No, I don't "lay down" and I'm not a "push-over", I just know how much rope I have to play with in this locality and with my current employer. BTW: I know how to legally turn that 30 minute response time in to three minutes, and it's available for anyone to do, LEO or not.

No, I will not tell you how, as that is something you will have to figure out on your own. ;)

Biker

grammythunder
June 20, 2009, 04:44 AM
Wooh! I'm glade I live in Texas!!!!!!!!!!!!!

skydiver3346
June 20, 2009, 07:11 AM
I am just getting so tired of all the assaults, robberies, etc. going on around the the country nowadays and it seems we just have to take it, (because of all the "rules/laws" that seem to protect the perp more than the victim). I really get bummed out about it............ I know you are just trying to help.

TailGator
June 20, 2009, 08:08 AM
The statute as quoted by Pax prohibits action that is likely to cause death or great physical harm, so all that speculation about freak accidents is not in the same league as talking about shooting him or breaking his legs with a baseball bat.

Back to tactics: All of this talk about rubbing Tabasco in his face, grabbing his legs to drag him out, etc., brings me into way too close contact with a guy who has clearly demonstrated that he has no respect for law and ethics and therefore very likely may not value human life. I personally am not getting killed over a car radio or an airbag. I will, as I said some days ago, take pictures. I will keep track of the guy from a safe distance and stay in touch with the 911 dispatcher.

And I will darn sure make sure the sheriff knows that I was told to wait 30 minutes for a response with a crime in progress and a perpetrator, who could have turned violent at any moment, in my immediate presence. And if I didn't get a satisfactory response from the sheriff, I would make equally sure the electorate knew about it at the next election.

Lots of chest thumping on here, but I don't intend to be one of the ones who joins the choir silent or lives in the jail cell next to the guy who did me wrong.

OldMarksman
June 20, 2009, 08:08 AM
So someone can rob you and you can't do a damn thing about it but call the police?

Not true.

To my knowledge you can use physical force but not deadly force anywhere, and you can use deadly force if necessary in a few states--Texas at night, probably Georgia, and maybe others.

By the way, the guy is not robbing you. He's stealing. Very key distinction there.

Or just maybe he's committing burglary. More on that later.

What about the guy coming back later and doing something worse to you next time?

There is no state or territory in which it is lawful for a citizen to use deadly force, or any other kind of force, to prevent someone for doing something later. The operative words are imminent and necessary.

The way you explain it, you would probably help them load up the goods they are stealing from you.

?

As of yet, I have not read one word about what you would do in this situation: All you keep saying is what will happen, if I do something to the poor thief...

(1) Dial, (2) File, (3) Stay out of jail.

I have to believe folks, that the law is on the side of the victims to some degree (and if its not, then we are in deep doo doo).

It is. You can defend yourself and family and usually others, prevent unlawful entry if you are inside in many states, and in some places, use deadly force to prevent some kinds of felonies.

I respect the law and I believe that the law is on our side.

Yet you keep implying that you would break the law.

Victims have rights too and we just can't let the bad guys of the world abuse citizens and nothing is ever done about it.

That's probably just about what the prosecutor and the judge would say. When you are referred to as "the defendant", you will also hear the other person described as a "victim".

I just would have to do something besides a phone call in this scenario. But I guess that is the difference between you and me.

Again, you could use reasonable, non-deadly physical force, but that's risky in several ways. I'm not fit enough to risk it. Maybe you are.

Maybe that's the difference between you and me. Maybe it's knowledge of the law. Maybe it's respect for the law. Maybe it's just that I don't want to risk giving up my clean record, gun rights, personal belongings, and/or personal freedom to protect something I would most likely lose anyway.

Note that it is possible that, in Florida, the fact of the perp's being inside the car establishes justification for acting against a forcible felony.

Don't decide that based on lay research. See an attorney and spend $250 or so. Cheap insurance. Also, friends who have taken the Florida CCW course tell me that it is informative.

That still wouldn't mean that shooting would necessarily be a wise choice, if you compare what attorneys fees could amount to with the value of the loss. You might give up the cost of a few Corvettes even if you win.

Kyo
June 20, 2009, 08:09 AM
to the OP: in GA I could shoot him for felony burglary, and trespassing. That no is just the invite to do it. A non compliance is dangerous in my mind because it can mean lots of things. He has someone looking out for him, he knows something you don't, he has a weapon of his own.
technically you can even argue that you really are scared for your life because the guy who sees the gun said no, meaning to a normal person his state of mind is not normal, and a person could reasonably assume he would be dangerous. So, if he got out of the car or even moved while you told him not to, he's pretty much dead.
Thats why you say "don't move" and he says no, and he moves to get something, and you shoot him. and then cops will be there in like 3 minutes.

BillCA
June 20, 2009, 08:12 AM
Okay, before I tell you what my friend's solution was, I'd like to comment on some of the responses. They were enlightening.

We had a only one response that said do nothing -- i.e. call the cops, watch tv until they arrive, file an insurance claim. Surrrre. you would. :rolleyes:

A lot of folks indicated the use of some kind of force in a manner that suggests you'd want your "pound o' flesh" outta the guy before letting him go or turning him over to the cops. I can sympathize -- hours of hard work to buy the things you own and some slimeball thinks he can ruin them without true consequences. That's like someone crapping in your livingroom. However, think of the consequences if your use of force just crosses that legal line between "reasonable force" and battery or ADW¹ charges.

I find it interesting that my OP asked "What now?", as in what is your solution? and the majority of the 80-some-odd posts quibble over what the law says you can't do. Very few people were thinking outside the box to solve the problem. The few that did seemed to offer their thoughts in a half-joking manner.

This tells me that when or if a criminal does something very unexpected that is not threatening, most of our members are unable to improvise a solution. Well, other than using some kind of brute force.

A bold or brazen thief? Perhaps. Fortunately, most thugs don't know how the law works for honest & law abiding people. But the few that do know, or have had some "jailhouse training" can be dangerous to good citizens. Three recent cases, one of them here in the SF area, showed that thieves caught in the act, raised their hands, apologized and then simply walking out/away. One (in Oregon) walked off with a $400 impact hammer set while saying "it's illegal to shoot me in the back for just taking property". Frightening.

In this case (#3), the thief revealed that another thief told him not to threaten anyone, but just walk off or tell the guy he can't shoot over mere property. And it had worked for him four times so far! This speaks well of our citizens in that they don't seem to go overboard using force. The thief also risks getting killed or shot by someone ignorant of the way the laws work.

Potential solutions:
Donn_N: My friend did think about taking his stuff into the garage, but that required getting too close to the thief's feet. Or within striking distance of that ratchet. A non-starter solution.

Knee-Knockers: Bats, golf clubs, sticks, etc. on the knees might work, though I think too many people would be overly generous in the application such tools. However, using the edge of a 4-iron or the handle-end of a bat to "bark" the guy's shins several times (painful but not permanently damaging) -- might have gotten him out of the car. But then you'd have a possible fight to deal with.

Dwight55 gets the runner-up award for offering the closest thing to the solution used. The only reason you didn't get first prize was due to the way it was phrased.

The resolution used was, as Dwight55 suggested, ammonia. Dwight suggested ammonia and chlorine bleach which can be deadly and damaging to the lungs.

Since the guy was, from what could be seen, working on getting the GPS unit out, there was plenty of time before he tried to leave. So, walk into the garage, put several shop towels in a mop bucket and pour half a gallon of ammonia on them. In his case, my friend used old baby diaper "polishing rags" which are very absorbent.

Walk up the the car, kick the door into the guy's shin. When he retracts his leg, fling about five ammonia-saturated rags into the car and slam the door shut. Wait. Lean on the door to prevent him from tossing the rags back out easily.² When the thief crawled out of the driver's side, he was ready with some rope to lasso the guy, who offered little resistance. Once controlled, he pulled the rags out of the car and put them slightly upwind of the guy. By the time the cops arrived the thief was relieved to be taken away.

¹ ADW: Assault with a Deadly Weapon
² Most modern cars require ignition-switch power to lower the windows.

Dragon55
June 20, 2009, 08:39 AM
"Officer.. I was standing there watching this guy take apart my car. I asked him to please don't do that and leave please. At this time time he lunged at me with a small tool. I feared for my life so I shot him 3 times. He fell back into the car. That's when I called you guys."

pacerdude
June 20, 2009, 10:16 AM
I would use OC spray to slow him down and maybe save my car. Bill, was the home remedy, lemon juice? :)

pacerdude
June 20, 2009, 10:24 AM
Another option is a can of wasp spray that can shoot 100 feet... you can pick it up at your neighborhood Wal-Mart.... And a good shot in the face should stop him. :D

Doc Intrepid
June 20, 2009, 10:40 AM
Killing someone is something I would prefer not to do.

Especially over a car stereo. I'm an old guy with lots of insurance, and car stereos keep getting better ever six months. I'll replace it with a better one.

Where I live, killing is only justified in self-defense. In this scenario, this guy is not threatening my life.

Like other's have said, if I kill the guy to defend my property, which I then lose because I have to sell it to make bail, pay a lawyer, and possibly pay fines and jail time, what have I gained?

If the cops are on the way and 911 has an open line going, I'm going to hold the gun on him until the cops arrive.

If the scenario changes, and he starts to walk away, I may be in his path and therefore begin to feel threatened.....but thats a different scenario...

I'm not going to kill a guy to protect my car stereo. I don't even like my car stereo that much...

(And to you guys with all the other options - do you really take pepper spray or wasp spray or impact weapons or other implements out with you when you take out the trash at night? Just wondering... mostly it seems to me that a gunfight is a "come as you are" proposition.)

Bill --

How long did it take your buddy to get the smell of ammonia out of his sort-of-still-new 2008 car interior?

BillCA
June 20, 2009, 10:53 AM
For what it's worth, breaking into a locked car to commit theft or some other crime is called burglary. It varies from state to state, but it's typically some form of felony. However, be sure the car was locked before assuming burglary, since theft from an unlocked car may fall to a misdemeanor theft or "tampering with vehicle".

Kyo: I believe the correct word you want is that someone who doesn't even blink when you're pointing a gun at him is irrational. A rational person could (believe it or not) "fear for his life" with the vehicle owner pointing a gun at him.¹ But if you give him orders, it will be up to you to make sure they are clear and concise and you don't overreact.²

Dragon55: The state of the art in foresnics is quite good, so I wouldn't tell any "tall tales" about his making a lunge, unless he really does so.

pacerdude: Read my post above.

My friend said it's luck for the thief he didn't hit the neighbor's house -- he owns a pair of Irish Wolfhounds (http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images15/IrishWolfhoundFrankBrendan.JPG) that average about 120 pounds each and are somewhat territorial. A pair of them could play "make a wish" with an intruder. :p

¹ He could fear for his life, but because he is instigating a crime, he lacks the legal right to claim it for self-defense. Unless, of course, you state you will, or attempt to, kill him unlawfully.
² If you tell him "Get out of the car!" and he moves to the other side to exit, he is complying with your command. Shooting him because you lose sight of his hand when he goes to open the door will get you prosecuted (how did you expect him to open the door?)

hogdogs
June 20, 2009, 10:59 AM
Another option is a can of wasp spray that can shoot 100 feet... you can pick it up at your neighborhood Wal-Mart.... And a good shot in the face should stop him.
Actually that is a violation of federal law... Says so right on the label of every type of chemical pest control product...
The misuse statement is a reminder that it is a violation of Federal law to use a product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling.
Misuse statement

All registered pesticides, including all end-use and manufacturing-use products, will bear labeling which has the following statement immediately below the Use Classification: “It is a violation of federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling.” Other statements related to misuse may be seen on residential/household use products in addition to the previous general misuse statement:

*

“STOP! – Read the label before using.”
*

“Use only as directed on this label.”
*

“Read label very carefully, including any special requirements which pertain to your growing area.”
*

“Failure to follow all precautions and directions is illegal.”
If application to a human's face is not listed or a warning to avoid contact with skin than you breakin federal law!
Brent

Dragon55
June 20, 2009, 11:06 AM
I live 30 minutes from the top forenSICS school in the world. Forensics in actual practice resembles very little what you see on tv. Someone that was that arrogant or confident or stupid would make me fear for his returning later for even worse acts. This has happened.
In my community in this situation the homeowner would prevail. I could site numerous similar instances where it has. Our LE encourage self protection.

samurai30047
June 20, 2009, 11:13 AM
I can't believe that a gun oriented site like this attracts sooooo many pacifists. Your property is being stolen and you stand by and do nothing? Calling the police and video taping is basically doing nothing. Reminds me of the towns folk in the movie "High Plains Drifter". Too afraid to do the right thing.
I like the bug spray idea, but your car is getting hosed too. It's still something though and bad guys are probably going to get provoked by that so be ready to deal with a charging felon at that point. I'm fine with that. Pop pop. I feared for my life, yada yada yada.
Car door to the leg is good too, again, minimum use of force to that which is legally allowed. He then gets tired of his knee being force side ways with about 230 pounds of force repeatedly and turns on you. Again Pop pop pop. Bad guys aren't all cowards so expect reaction, especially from intoxicated bad guys. A woman in Plymouth Michigan was beaten almost to death by a would be rapist when she sprayed him with pepper spray. He used a pipe to the head. She survived but didn't have a back up plan and was almost killed. Career criminals are probably sprayed or beaten several times in a career so be ready to go there. Fast.
I think the best so far is the spray, in the left hand, accompanied by gun in the right. Gun held down at your side until immediately after the spray is deployed so as not to mistakenly use IT first. Be sure of your back drop and maybe aim a little low of center mass since usually stress makes people statistically shoot high right. I'd check the laws of the state in question too, I'm just stating what I'd do.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfLRT83S2YQ

skydiver3346
June 20, 2009, 11:38 AM
I agree 100% with you guys.

As I stated earlier, (letting this guy go) you risk him coming back later for something else. Why, because he saw you watch him stealing and you did nothing..... You now risk another visit by him or his friends and maybe an assault to you or your family member is next??

Me thinks it best to end this situation when it happens. How, I am not 100% sure (from all the responses I got from my posts). However, I can assure you that the bad guy is not just walking away scot free. That's for sure!

I just really got to think on this (call my attorney buddy) and figure it all out. Best to be prepared for exactly what you would do (when and if something like this ever happened to you). Hopefully it never does.

Wildalaska
June 20, 2009, 11:45 AM
"Officer.. I was standing there watching this guy take apart my car. I asked him to please don't do that and leave please. At this time time he lunged at me with a small tool. I feared for my life so I shot him 3 times. He fell back into the car. That's when I called you guys."

I dont know whats worse, the fact that you would post that or the knowledge that some gun owners think that way:barf:

I can't believe that a gun oriented site like this attracts sooooo many pacifists.

I for one am not insulted by the word pacifist, especially in light of the company that implies...like Ghandi and Jesus

WildguessitshowsthatgunownersaregoodfolksAlaska TM

samurai30047
June 20, 2009, 11:50 AM
I like the quote I read here, once. Beware of pacifists, they're willing to sacrifice others for their ideals.

And you are incredibly arrogant to compare yourself with with either Jesus or Ghandi. Come on!

Did you see the link I posted? How did you like the poor womans head wound? She'll never be the same. What if that was your daughter?

Unlike some people, I have to go to work now. I'll be back later.

OldMarksman
June 20, 2009, 11:51 AM
I can't believe that a gun oriented site like this attracts sooooo many pacifists.

Pacifists? How about persons who elect to not assume the risks of getting hurt or killed (not to rehash getting prosecuted or sued) over an item of property that can be replaced?

Some time back, a guy in Texas heard someone doing something around his trailer and went outside with a shotgun to investigate. The perp had a knife.

No, the citizen was not charged or tried for any kind of unlawful act.

He was overcome by an accomplice, stabbed, disarmed, shot, and maimed, and can no longer work as an airline mechanic.

Every single recommendation I've seen from anyone on this forum with a law enforcement background and anyone whom I know to have taken force-on-force training, with one exception that I can recall, is to not go outside at night or at any other time to handle miscreants. Too much risk of ambush. Same thing regarding "clearing a house."

The exception? Well, it came from the OP. However, as much as I respect Bill in California, the pics he posted of his residential layout made it look to me like an ideal place to be accosted and hurt, and others far more qualified than I by virtue of their training and experience pointed that out.

All downside, very little potential upside, IMHO.

Calling the police and video taping is basically doing nothing.

Not if it works and keeps you from getting hurt, killed, or paying for a lawyer.

samurai30047
June 20, 2009, 11:51 AM
Jesus tossed the money changers out of the temple when they ****** Him off.

hogdogs
June 20, 2009, 12:03 PM
Did you see the link I posted? How did you like the poor womans head wound? She'll never be the same. What if that was your daughter?
Sorry to burst yer bubble but your link has nuttin' to do with passive behavior...
According to... A woman in Plymouth Michigan was beaten almost to death by a would be rapist when she sprayed him with pepper spray.
She did not exhibit passive compliance when she used a less than satisfactory burst of spray which did not incapacitate the BG. So pacifists and the case you are trying to relate together are not in the same building.
Brent

Wildalaska
June 20, 2009, 12:09 PM
And you are incredibly arrogant to compare yourself with with either Jesus or Ghandi. Come on!

I'll send you a free gun if you can show where I compared my humble self to either of those men.:rolleyes: Reading comprehesion is a tool too. Do it by PM so as to to waste bandwidth in your futile efforts

Jesus tossed the money changers out of the temple when they ****** Him off.
Today 12:51 PM

Somehow I doubt he thereafter started screeching: Wooooooooooohooooooooo, clean the gene pool, blow 'em away, its my property, off with their heads :p

WildbacktobugsprayAlaska TM

MLeake
June 20, 2009, 01:09 PM
... might be viable options.

I still say that medium and large dogs can solve all sorts of issues. I somehow think a burglar would be much less complacent when looking at my friend's American Bulldog. Up until last year, I'd have called 911, and if I went out it would have been with a concealed .45 or .357, and the dog (on a leash, to protect against civil suits, to protect the dog in case officers arrived, and also because a leashed dog is a bit more menacing - he hasn't attacked yet because he's held back - if loose and not attacking, maybe the dog isn't really a threat), with cell phone in pocket.

Need to get another big dog myself; my Catahoula made it to 13.5 years, but that was a year ago. Big, friendly baby, but you'd be surprised how many iffy people opted to move away from my property when they saw him. Most dogs are really good at picking up the monster vibe from people, and the teeth that are never shown will become more noticeable, and the snarls that almost never happen will start up.

Had a Rott/Shepherd mix a few years back who was also a big sweetie, but she recognized BGs when she saw them; whole different personality emerged. Kept some would-be attackers back from my ex long enough for her to produce a 9mm and send them running. (One of the two was a known stalker, so we assumed his buddy was probably an accomplice.)

Mello2u
June 20, 2009, 01:57 PM
In many jurisdictions firing a firearm in the presence of a bad guy may be considered use of deadly force. If so, are you justified in using deadly force? Are you in imminent danger of great bodily harm or death? I would argue no. The bad guy in the original scenario was merely non-compliant and not a threat to you.

Unless you are in Texas I doubt that the state's law allows you to use deadly force to protect your property.

The suggestions to hit the bad guy with a baseball bat might also be considered use of deadly force or at least the use of a dangerous weapon. It might depend upon there you struck the bad guy. In training with the PR24 there were three gradations of points of the body that you could hit with escalating levels of force. The highest level was deadly force.

I would suggest using available cover (something that should stop a bullet) while keeping the bad guy covered. While waiting for the police you might take some photos of the guy to identify him later. If the police did not arrive before the bad guy decided to leave with my property, maybe I would place myself blocking his path. If he advanced on me, I would then be justified in shooting.

For those who would hit the bad guy with a bat or sledgehammer and break some bones or incapacitate the bad guy, you would most likely be charged with aggravated assault and battery or possibly attempted murder (each state has their own standards and definitions). Regardless of the name of the charge, you would likely be convicted of a felony and sentenced to many years in a prison. If you survive prison and got out, you would be an ex-con. Think that is a resume enhancement?

Because of your righteous indignation and act of anger you would lose your freedom, the right to vote, probably your family, and the right to bear arms. Would you pay that enormous price to indulge your anger? Your insurance would pay for any loss on your property.

Shane Tuttle
June 20, 2009, 07:08 PM
I can't believe that a gun oriented site like this attracts sooooo many pacifists. Your property is being stolen and you stand by and do nothing? Calling the police and video taping is basically doing nothing. Reminds me of the towns folk in the movie "High Plains Drifter". Too afraid to do the right thing.

You know, I'm thinking almost the opposite:

I can't believe that a board like this has a cardinal philosophy of having a community dedicated to the discussion and advancement of responsible firearms ownership only to attract soooo many gung-ho chest thumping kill 'em all let God sort 'em out enthusiasts.:barf:

Your car stereo is being stolen and you want to shoot 'em up if they laugh at you? This is basically going to accomplish nothing. Well, I guess it would accomplish a few things. You being arrested, cough up money for bail (if you are granted one by the judge) and an attorney. Pretty sure you're going to be broke by the time it's all said and done. That won't matter since you'll be enjoying an 8x8 cell shared with fellow cellmate by the name Bubba (or whatever name he makes you call him). Kinda reminds me of fans that fantasize being their favorite professional "wrestling" superstar; gratuitus physical violence without even the need for referees...:rolleyes:

Whatever chest thumping one may think they'll do, we have laws of the land to abide by. Yak all you want on what's perceivably right in your mind. But when the dust settles, you have to be responsible for your actions as set in the State and Federal laws. On top of that, when the anti-gun crowds get ahold of the story, we all look like a bunch of hooligans.....all for a stupid, lousy stereo. Now, tell me. What good does it really do by carrying out your way?

Oh, and IIRC, nobody in High Plains Drifter gathered incriminating evidence, called the authorities, and kept their eye at a safe distance with a firearm just in case their life was in imminent danger...

skydiver3346
June 20, 2009, 07:54 PM
I just got off the phone with an attorney who told me this:
If someone threatens me (while he is in the commission of a felony, i.e. buglary for example) that I am within my rights to defend myself, especially while on my own property, garage, etc.

No doubt, I'm sure that if I try and stop him, he will threaten me in some degree and maybe want to kick my butt (or worse). I have seen numerous and corny suggestions about pouring chemicals on him, slam the door on him, etc. Yeah, like he is just going to sit there and take that...
As a lot of you suggest, we can't shoot him "for just stealing a radio", so what do we do? Beg him to stop? Yeah, that should work...

So, lets see now? You have the choice of calling the police (and who knows when they will get there, as I live way out of town) and standing away at a distance while the thief steals all your property and he knows you are watching him. Maybe the bad guy is thinking, "man, this guy is a real wimpy SOB.. I'll bet I can come back later and really load up"?? I can't believe he is watching me do this and is not trying to stop me. Who knows??

Other than Hogdog's suggestion (which is taking action), I have yet to hear one concrete suggestion on what someone would do if this really happened to them. Silly things don't count and doing nothing does not count.
You have to realize, that this person could possibly come back again at a later date (and maybe do worse next time). Its happened before and will no doubt, happen again.

Actually, this is an excellent thread and has a lot of people trying to explain the rationale of why they would do something or not. Maybe there is no perfect soulution. To each his own and let the chips fall where they may?
Good luck, I'm done.....

OldMarksman
June 20, 2009, 08:58 PM
I can't believe he is watching me do this and is not trying to stop me. Who knows??

I wouldn't stake my life on the assumption that his armed accomplice in the getaway car isn't watching me, either.

Expert trainers say don't go out there. I'll take my advice from them.

sakeneko
June 20, 2009, 09:20 PM
Sheesh.... Lots of chest-thumping he-men in this thread insisting that they'd shoot the bastich for stealing, messing up their vehicle, and having a mouth on him. I hope most of you who were in that crowd were just venting.

Just for the record, I don't at all mind BillCA's original question, nor his redirect suggesting that we think outside the box and focus, not on what we can't do, but on what we might be able to do to stop the guy. I have no problem with using a reasonable degree of force to stop the guy. I'm not sure about pepper spray (it can kill, although rarely), but tossing some ammonia soaked rags or other stuff the perp won't want to breathe into the vehicle sounds workable. I also think that documenting what he's doing is a good idea.

But what's wrong with deciding that stopping him isn't worth the cost and just claiming on your insurance? Why do so many people here seem to think that they have to prove something to a thief?

Mr. James
June 20, 2009, 09:31 PM
Other than Hogdog's suggestion (which is taking action), I have yet to hear one concrete suggestion on what someone would do if this really happened to them. Silly things don't count and doing nothing does not count.

Did you read BillCA's post at no. 87? He related not just a hypothetical solution, but the car owner's actual (and successful) resolution to this bizarre scenario. Silly? Maybe, but the bad guy was stopped, and the victim didn't end up in the hospital, the morgue, or the local jail. That's a three-fer.

supergas452M
June 20, 2009, 10:03 PM
It is not having to prove something to a thief, it is a refusal to have my life dictated by scum. All (well most) of those that have posted in this thread have very good points and reasons why they will react in the manner they will.

I have my reasons also. I have been at different times, burglarized, had my home invaded and physically assaulted. So have members of my family.

Noone knows exactly how they will react in any situation and all scenarios are different.

I know this...

I will act with a sudden and violent attack (in whatever manner necessary and appropriate) meant to immediately stop any threat to myself, my family or my property and for the defense from bodily harm of any innocent.

You all have to make and live with your own decisions and I understand that. I also accept that. See, I know the world is full of all kinds of good people, all doing the best they can.

It's the predators I have an issue with.

Dwight55
June 20, 2009, 10:12 PM
Bill wrote: "Okay, before I tell you what my friend's solution was, I'd like to comment on some of the responses. They were enlightening.

Donn_N: My friend did think about taking his stuff into the garage, but that required getting too close to the thief's feet. Or within striking distance of that ratchet. A non-starter solution.

Knee-Knockers: Bats, golf clubs, sticks, etc. on the knees might work, though I think too many people would be overly generous in the application such tools. However, using the edge of a 4-iron or the handle-end of a bat to "bark" the guy's shins several times (painful but not permanently damaging) -- might have gotten him out of the car. But then you'd have a possible fight to deal with.

Dwight55 gets the runner-up award for offering the closest thing to the solution used. The only reason you didn't get first prize was due to the way it was phrased.

The resolution used was, as Dwight55 suggested, ammonia. Dwight suggested ammonia and chlorine bleach which can be deadly and damaging to the lungs.

Since the guy was, from what could be seen, working on getting the GPS unit out, there was plenty of time before he tried to leave. So, walk into the garage, put several shop towels in a mop bucket and pour half a gallon of ammonia on them. In his case, my friend used old baby diaper "polishing rags" which are very absorbent.

Walk up the the car, kick the door into the guy's shin. When he retracts his leg, fling about five ammonia-saturated rags into the car and slam the door shut. Wait. Lean on the door to prevent him from tossing the rags back out easily.² When the thief crawled out of the driver's side, he was ready with some rope to lasso the guy, who offered little resistance. Once controlled, he pulled the rags out of the car and put them slightly upwind of the guy. By the time the cops arrived the thief was relieved to be taken away. "

And Bill is perfectly correct (see bold area above). Bad phraseology on my part, . . . ammonia and chlorine together produce phosgene gas, . . . it is at least very very irritating to your lungs, . . . can do irreversable damage, . . . and can cause death. It was used in gas warfare during WW1 I was told.

My attempt was to advocate pouring or throwing a substance on him that would be very irritating both as a smell and physically. Both clorox and ammonia will do that. The brake cleaner will do so also, . . . and can be used with the squirter tube that doesn't make you get too close.

And if Mr. Non-compliance is wearing a tee shirt and shorts, . . . you can get enough of either on him in short order that you may make some $$$$ renting him your garden hose before the LEO folks arrive.

May God bless,
Dwight

Hornett
June 20, 2009, 10:16 PM
From my experience, relying on insurance is just not acceptible.
When I turn in a claim, it goes on record.
Enough claims (like 2 or 3) and my rates go up.
Any more than that and I can get cancelled.
I have insurance because it's the law, but I only use it if my car gets totaled or something catastrophic like that.
Sorry to all the insurance agents out there, but somebody had to say it. :)

I can't tell you what I would do, really, but I am sure that I would take some kind of unpleasant action against the burglar.
I would want him to be there when the police arrive so he can be arrested.

Old Wanderer
June 20, 2009, 11:10 PM
Whewww a lot of post to read...

Me, I want this guy arrested. I agree, I cannot shoot him without major problems for my self,,,but really these genes should not be passed along.

I always carry a knife besides my Kimber 45 Ultra. Feet sticking out of my car door, unless he is wearing boots, the Achilles tendon is mine for the taking. Take them both...(now the bleeding hearts will say that is a deadly attack, but there are 2 sides to every story...I tried to restrain him with my knife and he kicked cutting himself). Ever see someone try and stand with no Achilles tendons....they are not going anywhere but on hands and knees.

He is putting stuff on the ground next to my car, where is his car, it better have 4 flat tires...or you are not doing your job.

Put the wife back on the phone yelling there is blood everywhere, get the police here now...get some ambulances too...then say Oh no and hang up.

Only 1 person mentioned zip ties....your best friend.

Sometimes you cannot just let other people get their hands dirty, you have to do your own work. And going back to the OP, when you told him to get out of your car, he did threaten sexual violence. Were you fearful, not only for yourself but your family.....quaking in my boots. Who know what might have happened in 30 minutes. :confused:

Kyo
June 20, 2009, 11:26 PM
Tuttle as I agree that no one needs to be shot over a radio, I would still assume that the person is being irrational(forget who corrected me) or in the wrong mind set to be dealing with them safely.
Would you be more on guard if someone complied with you or if someone disregarded everything you say?
Maybe the solution would be to call the cops and tell them you are witnessing a burglary after you hold them there. I am not waiting for someone to kill if they try to take my stereo. But I don't know if I would just let them walk away. The thing is, what if you say "don't move or I will shoot" and he moves? Is this morally right?
This reminds me of the recent example of the guy who told some kid to leave his yard. He came back and was warned again only to not listen. I would think this would be the same situation. That if I am armed and my instructions aren't followed I would have to fire. Do you shoot him in the leg to prove a point? Do you fire a warning shot?

Doc Intrepid
June 21, 2009, 12:02 AM
With respect, if you discharge your firearm it ought to be because you or a loved one are in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm.

Shooting someone in the leg (deliberately), firing a warning shot, and so forth are not defensible in court (where I live - it may be different where you live).

At the risk of sounding dickish, part of being a responsible gun owner is abiding by all the laws. You certainly don't need to tolerate a life threatening attack, but if there IS no immediate threat.....thats when Plan B is called for, however you define it.

But we don't really have the option of picking and choosing which laws we agree to abide by...

Donn_N
June 21, 2009, 12:06 AM
Expert trainers say don't go out there. I'll take my advice from them.


+1.

Shane Tuttle
June 21, 2009, 12:27 AM
I just really got to think on this (call my attorney buddy) and figure it all out. Best to be prepared for exactly what you would do (when and if something like this ever happened to you). Hopefully it never does.

I just got off the phone with an attorney who told me this:
If someone threatens me (while he is in the commission of a felony, i.e. buglary for example) that I am within my rights to defend myself, especially while on my own property, garage, etc.

One KEY problem, Sky. You didn't tell your lawyer the correct story. The perp never threatened Bill's friend's life. This very issue is the dividing line that provides two drastically scenarios on what to do.

From my experience, relying on insurance is just not acceptible.
When I turn in a claim, it goes on record.
Enough claims (like 2 or 3) and my rates go up.
Any more than that and I can get cancelled.
I have insurance because it's the law, but I only use it if my car gets totaled or something catastrophic like that.
Sorry to all the insurance agents out there, but somebody had to say it.
I can't tell you what I would do, really, but I am sure that I would take some kind of unpleasant action against the burglar.
I would want him to be there when the police arrive so he can be arrested.

So, you don't know what you'd really do. That's an honest statement, I'm sure (not being condescending nor sarcastic). I'd want to take reasonable action to keep the perp there until he/she is arrested, also. 100% certain I could? No. But I don't think I'll be playing "security guard" which is observe and report, either.

One issue with your statement about insurance claims is agents rely on you not making a claim on the smaller stuff. You're paying premiums plus you're paying out of pocket to replace the items that are damaged. You lose both ways, the agency wins both. Granted, a $550 stereo isn't worth claiming if your deductible is $500.

He is putting stuff on the ground next to my car, where is his car, it better have 4 flat tires...or you are not doing your job.

So, you're performing willful destruction of anothers' property to keep them from destructing yours? Not good. The jury of your peers probably won't be so simpathetic on that one...

But I don't know if I would just let them walk away. The thing is, what if you say "don't move or I will shoot" and he moves? Is this morally right? This reminds me of the recent example of the guy who told some kid to leave his yard. He came back and was warned again only to not listen. I would think this would be the same situation. That if I am armed and my instructions aren't followed I would have to fire. Do you shoot him in the leg to prove a point? Do you fire a warning shot?

Your questions are too vague. I wouldn't shoot if he moved to flee. I would if he advanced in a manner that my life is about to end if I didn't fire my gun. No, I wouldn't shoot in the leg to prove a point nor would I fire a warning shot.

Listen up folks. NONE of us are Clint Eastwood in Gran Turino. Everybody get this in y'all's head and this discussion will flow much easier dealing with reality.

BillCA
June 21, 2009, 12:40 AM
Someone that was that arrogant or confident or stupid would make me fear for his returning later for even worse acts.

You have to realize, that this person could possibly come back again at a later date (and maybe do worse next time). Its happened before and will no doubt, happen again.

As a civilian, you cannot employ deadly force for something that the person might do at some future date, especially if you have no evidence he ever did something violent in the past. But let's look at it another way...

Homeowner wakes up at 11:55pm to odd noises. Eventually he steps outside with a flashlight and sees someone starting to walk away from the garden spigot with a water filled bucket... his bucket. He calls for the person to stop in rather harsh language and the trespasser calls back "I'll be back and we'll settle this."

Can he shoot because of what this person might do when comes back? With no evidence of violence or violent threats, not a prayer. Even if he threated to come back and beat the owner to a bloody pulp, he would not be justified in shooting. Now... think of the above situation where the trespasser is your father, brother, sister, wife, daughter, son... who's car was overheating in a rural area late at night and decided to borrow 2 gallons of water and the bucket to get home... with the intention of leaving a few bucks in the bucket for the use -- instead of waking people up late at night. You'd be insisting that the law prosecute the owner, now wouldn't you?

And going back to the OP, when you told him to get out of your car, he did threaten sexual violence. Were you fearful, not only for yourself but your family.....quaking in my boots. Who know what might have happened in 30 minutes.
Watch out... if you stretch it too far, it'll break and slap you silly.

You can stretch a point only so far. If someone tells you to go F-- yourself or to F-- off, the court is not going to find that those words were a threat of sexual violence.

And if Mr. Non-compliance is wearing a tee shirt and shorts, . . . you can get enough of either on him in short order that you may make some $$$$ renting him your garden hose before the LEO folks arrive.
Classic! I love it Dwight!
Accept no checks or cards, cash only, and in small bills.

The Goal
The goal of this post was to exercise the gray matter and get people to think rationally instead of with their gonads or emotions.

Jumping up and down on a thief's hands until they quit crunching might be satisfying to someone's sense of revenge or "justice". But it can also get you some serious jail time if you exceed known limitations on the use of force.

The whole point is to ask yourself what will you do if a criminal type or even a potential criminal type just passively fails to comply with your instructions? By doing the unexpected (and/or illogical or irrational) the BG can get inside your OODA loop and distract you long enough to make his move. Or allow his unseen partner to make a move on you.

Have more than one solution!

That guy walking out of your open garage, carrying off your expensive golf clubs just keeps walking away with no threat to you... think outside the box. How about that 15-ft electrical cord? Tie a knot in one end and swing it 'round and try to hobble his legs. Or use it like Indiana Jones' bullwhip.;)

Shane Tuttle
June 21, 2009, 12:45 AM
Have more than one solution!

Yeah, what would MacGyver do? :D

Great thread, Bill. I'd figure if you were the host of a thread you'd get our brains to work overtime...

supergas452M
June 21, 2009, 01:01 AM
I know quite a few expert trainers that would not hesitate to go out there and take whatever measures necessary to take this low life off the steets. I would be very happy to refer them if you so desire. These people are not just "expert trainers" they are warriors. Kind of makes the "expert trainers" argument moot doesn't it?

Shane Tuttle
June 21, 2009, 01:09 AM
Name 'em. And they better not be John Q. Public from Podunk, Iowa. Plus, links to their written documentation on incidents when the perp NEVER displayed actions that caused the defender to be fearful of imminent death.

Lost Sheep
June 21, 2009, 01:09 AM
Interesting thread.

I don't know how many of the readers of this thread have been following this one

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=363031
thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=363031

but the situation seems similar, but is an ongoing harrassment and intimidation scenario.

Any thoughts?

Lost Sheep

I will now quote an unnamed source: If you find youself in a fair fight, your tactics ---- (are inadequate).

Wildalaska
June 21, 2009, 01:20 AM
I know quite a few expert trainers that would not hesitate to go out there and take whatever measures necessary to take this low life off the steets. I would be very happy to refer them if you so desire. These people are not just "expert trainers" they are warriors.

Horrorshow! Names please...I need to become a warrior...I'm tired of skulking like a yellow coward in my house while the cheloveks and prestoopniks crast and crack as the millicents take their time in rescuing me.....

WildyermysaviorAlaska TM

supergas452M
June 21, 2009, 01:21 AM
Tuttle8, you doubt I can name them? What rock have you been hiding under?

You can find them here...

www.warriortalk.com

Wildalaska
June 21, 2009, 01:30 AM
Tuttle8, you doubt I can name them? What rock have you been hiding under?

You can find them here...

www.warriortalk.com

So you are alleging that mr Suarez and his ilk advocate the murder of unarmed folks who steal radios?

Wildwa'llmaybeiwilljustemailthemAlaska TM

DougO83
June 21, 2009, 01:34 AM
Ok...I simply step back from the vehicle and then throw as much body weight as I can into the door. Now we have a perp on the ground with a broken knee cap if he's lucky...

supergas452M
June 21, 2009, 01:42 AM
Did I say these folks would murder the scumbag??? No, I did not. I guarantee you they would take appropriate actions which would NOT include hidng in their homes waiting for the police to show up. If you doubt that why don't you ask Gabe, Sonny, and others how they would handle this scenario. For that matter, get hold of Chuck Norris and ask him what he would do.

Go ahead email them with your scenario.

Trooper Tyree
June 21, 2009, 01:55 AM
Go inside, start burn on CD, get boombox, retrieve freshly burned CD, go outside, plug in Boombox, plunk it down next to perp and start playing your freshly burned Britney Spears CD circa 1998 or so at earsplitting levels while dancing with an improvised miniskirt on. If that doesn't make him leave I think you're out of luck. :D

Seriously though, when you're dealing with crazy, you just have to make them think you're crazier.

That situation would never happen to me because of how my property is set up, fenced, dogs inside that are not friendly, but, since this is really just an exercise in thinking outside the box...

I have a Daisy BB pistol, chrome, can't tell it's not real at night. I'd walk up to the door opposite him, open door, toss it inside to the floorboard or seat beside him. Grunt "throwaway gun". Slam the door. Walk around to the other side, pull my piece and wait.

Note I'm not advocating throwaway guns or giving him a fake gun so you can shoot him. Not at all. We're just thinking outside the box.

What I am doing is guessing that someone cool enough to know that you can't shoot them for what they are doing, will know that the situation dynamics have changed dramatically now that they think I put a gun in the car with them. They will know that from the legal standpoint, you can shoot an armed robber. I'd expect them to get a whole lot more cooperative in a hurry.

They might ask to give themselves up, they might bolt and take off, or they might toss the gun out the window and tell you to quit interrupting them you're disturbing their concentration. If you have the right persona though, you could throw them off their game. :p

That's just thinking outside the box though. It would be better to not confront at all. I'd stay inside, maybe ban supergas for something to do, he's kind of annoying.

supergas452M
June 21, 2009, 01:59 AM
The silence is deafening isn't it Tuttle? Wild?

DougO83
June 21, 2009, 02:12 AM
supergas...if you have an issue, take it to PM. Do not sit around and attempt to incite flame wars. All that is going to do is get the thread locked. You are taking this way too seriously...it's teh interwebz...

RedneckFur
June 21, 2009, 02:53 AM
Pepper spray is cheap, and easy to find. Every gun owner should have a can for situations just like this. I keep a big can of it handy, and should I ever run into a situation like this, the robber will get sprayed.

teeroux
June 21, 2009, 04:44 AM
Well you could turn the garden hose on em and if he doesn't like it and comes out with a screw driver then shoot em.

Also I think here (La) technically you would be legal but still wouldn't look good on your part so much, you could jump in the car with him and then shoot him since he made forced entry. Though it would be hard to convince a jury its not bloodthirsty premeditated homicide since in this case you knew he was there.

La RS 14:20

(4)(a) When committed by a person lawfully inside a dwelling, a place of business, or a motor vehicle as defined in R.S. 32:1(40), against a person who is attempting to make an unlawful entry into the dwelling, place of business, or motor vehicle, or who has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, place of business, or motor vehicle, and the person committing the homicide reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the entry or to compel the intruder to leave the premises or motor vehicle.

No stipulation on you being in the vehicle when the entry is made.

http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=78338

BillCA
June 21, 2009, 06:44 AM
Thinking outside the box

I have a Daisy BB pistol, chrome, can't tell it's not real at night. I'd walk up to the door opposite him, open door, toss it inside to the floorboard or seat beside him. Grunt "throwaway gun". Slam the door. Walk around to the other side, pull my piece and wait.

Note I'm not advocating throwaway guns or giving him a fake gun so you can shoot him. Not at all. We're just thinking outside the box.

What I am doing is guessing that someone cool enough to know that you can't shoot them for what they are doing, will know that the situation dynamics have changed dramatically now that they think I put a gun in the car with them. They will know that from the legal standpoint, you can shoot an armed robber. I'd expect them to get a whole lot more cooperative in a hurry.

They might ask to give themselves up, they might bolt and take off, or they might toss the gun out the window and tell you to quit interrupting them you're disturbing their concentration. If you have the right persona though, you could throw them off their game.

For a good ole Southern boy who's mama didn't raise him to be makin' guesses in front of Yankee Captains, that's pretty good thinking Tyree. :p

A little psy-ops to play with his mind. If he tosses the gun out the car you could always mutter "Good. Fingerprints." to keep him wondering. :D

BillCA
June 21, 2009, 06:52 AM
If you doubt that why don't you ask Gabe, Sonny, and others how they would handle this scenario. For that matter, get hold of Chuck Norris and ask him what he would do.

*Sigh* - You miss the point Supergas.
I don't care if Gabe would use his ultra-tactical Akido wrist-grip to subdue the guy, or if Chuck Norris would beat the guy silly with a cream cheese dildo. The point of the exercise is to get YOU to think about alternative methods and tactics for dealing with someone who passively resists your orders, even at gunpoint. Once someone passively resists, the threat and/or use of your lethal force becomes legally questionable. So what can or will you do to stop him from committing a crime?

BillCA
June 21, 2009, 06:58 AM
Pepper spray is cheap, and easy to find. Every gun owner should have a can for situations just like this. I keep a big can of it handy, and should I ever run into a situation like this, the robber will get sprayed.
Absolutely. It's one place to start when his passive resistance negates the threat of your firearm. Depending on his position inside the car, you might spray some about his head & shoulders to see what kind of reaction that gets. If that's not possible due to body position, soaking the crotch area or the rear-end of his pants will probably take his mind off the theft business in less than 60 seconds.

And, as Dwight55 said, you could make a few $$ renting him your garden hose afterwards. ;)

But like anything else, have some idea of a backup plan in case it turns out that he's not bothered by pepper spray.

OldMarksman
June 21, 2009, 07:07 AM
I cannot shoot him without major problems for my self,,,but really these genes should not be passed along.

I always carry a knife besides my Kimber 45 Ultra. Feet sticking out of my car door, ...

Someone actually thinks using a knife is OK when a gun is not?

Time to get some training.

Dragon55
June 21, 2009, 07:20 AM
Bill I see this thread is still alive today. Cudos!

My post yesterday which was a feeble attempt at comedy apparently started a flame war.(right before I went to play golf)

I've thought about this scenario some since yesterday. I guess the most sensible thing to do would be to get the video camera like someone suggested and film the guy.
If he is as self assured as he sounds in the description maybe he would tell you his name and where he lives. Even better, maybe you could get a closeup of his ID card.

It's just that I still have concerns for him or his friends return visits because:

1. Thanx to the wife he knows response time for the cops is 30 minutes.
2. In this neighborhood folks will watch you rob them while holding a gun on you.
3. And... they got really nice stuff such as GPS units and nice stereos in their
vehicles.

OldMarksman
June 21, 2009, 07:40 AM
I know quite a few expert trainers that would not hesitate to go out there and take whatever measures necessary to take this low life off the steets. I would be very happy to refer them if you so desire. These people are not just "expert trainers" they are warriors. Kind of makes the "expert trainers" argument moot doesn't it?

Not at all. Ya missed the point.

What you say a "warrior" would do is moot--thought I doubt your claim.

The comment was that expert trainers advise against it.

Usually, the advice includes both legal aspects and tactical aspects.

Referring to Suarez, he says that combat is something to be avoided if you can. Not that anyone reasonable has yet advocated going outside for the purpose of entering into combat (illegal everywhere), but has he ever recommended that a single person not sworn to enforce the law go outside alone to deal with a perp in the dark?

Do LEOs do that in non-emergency situations? Where I live they always come in twos or threes.

Shane Tuttle
June 21, 2009, 10:16 AM
The silence is deafening isn't it Tuttle? Wild?

Yes, it is....when it's 2 a.m. Most people that work during the day usually are sawing logs at night. I'm no exception.

As the OP and OldMarksman stated: It isn't the point and Mr. Suarez wouldn't have advocated avoidance. Your source is invalid to the topic of discussion.

Taking the high road, I'm sure your schedule is different from mine and I patiently await for your response.

Doc Intrepid
June 21, 2009, 10:17 AM
"I don't care if Gabe would use his ultra-tactical Akido wrist-grip to subdue the guy, or if Chuck Norris would beat the guy silly with a cream cheese dildo." Heh. :D

claymore1500
June 21, 2009, 11:35 AM
Evidently the bad guy knows the laws that YOU have to live buy, otherwise he would have complied to your order to remove himself from the car.

However, I would keep the gun handy, As quickly as possible, ZIP TIE a rope to his ankle and tie the other end to the trailer hitch, then enter the drivers seat and tell him that we are going for a ride, I think his reaction would be PRICELESS.

DISCLAIMER: This SHOULD NOT be taken as advice, I was mearly attempting to inject some HUMOR into a senario that pretty much leaves you with your hands tied by any legal definition:mad::mad::(:rolleyes:

Wildalaska
June 21, 2009, 12:18 PM
I still like the discharge of Tactical Spew...one could load up with grape juice for colour, polenta for texture and baby shrimp for that o gawd get them off, GETTHEMOFF response....

The get out the ropes and chains...

I'm going to the market today, my food choices and meal planning will be based to tactical applications versus nutrition and flavour..

Ken chan, why you eat pea and oreo soup with squid? Disgusting!

WildwellhoneyjustloadingupfornoncompliantcarthievesAlaska TM

jjyergler
June 21, 2009, 12:35 PM
I don't know about the laws where you live but here in Florida, I do believe you have the right to stop someone who is burglarizing your home/property.


Also I think here (La) technically you would be legal but still wouldn't look good on your part so much, you could jump in the car with him and then shoot him since he made forced entry.


"Think?" "Technically?" What the hell are you guys talking about? I have seen several posts like this, and it horrifies me. If YOU OWN A GUN, YOU MUST, MUST, MUST, MUST ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY HAVE TO KNOW WHEN AND HOW IT CAN BE EMPLOYED IN YOUR STATE! If you don't know, sell your guns. If you don't know, you are a danger to yourself and your family as you might go to jail and leave them in the lurch. The Skydiver said he lives in Florida, and I can assure you that the CASTLE doctrine DOES NOT APPLY in this situation. In Florida, using a gun in this situation is going to get you in jail.

What you guys are saying is that you've read the laws, and in your states you believe that you would be justified. Are you willing to go to jail over "I think," and "technically?" Not me dude!

One other thing, when you guys and gals post with testosterone (I know, but gals produce testosterone too) fuelled bravado on this forum, understand one thing. If you ever are involved in a shooting that isn't absolutely righteous, everything you've ever posted will be blown up on the big display screen in front of a jury.

I don't always agree with WildAlaska, but be sure of one thing, you don't want to end up like the Pharmacist after a bad shoot. The difference in his case between heroism and jail is apparently one shot.

Sorry about the rant, I just had to get that off my chest. :cool:

BTW, TeeRoux, it looks like you are right, the LA law seems to justify you in this case, I wasn't attacking you particularly, I don't think you are the type of poster I am referring to.

hogdogs
June 21, 2009, 12:37 PM
Since there can be some issues with "recoil" using spew... I prefer to prepare in advance and use exhaust fumes... Just last night I was testing a new formulation using egg salad samiches, grilled chicken salad with a raspberry vinagrette dressing and mangos topped off with several Ice House beers... Brought tears to my daughters eyes without direct dispersal. One of them let loose in the vehicle and slam door shut and I WIN!!!
Brent

Wildalaska
June 21, 2009, 12:47 PM
mangos topped off with several Ice House beers

Dude thats covered under the NVA, I didnt know you had a tax stamp!

WildisittransferableAlaska TM

g_avery
June 21, 2009, 01:07 PM
dawg.

or pepperspray

jjyergler
June 21, 2009, 01:12 PM
Brought tears to my daughters eyes without direct dispersal.

Not only is that probably a violation of the laws of the state of Florida, it is probably in violation of several international treaties and conventions. I'm not sure whom I should call, DCF or the UN.:eek:

TailGator
June 21, 2009, 02:09 PM
egg salad samiches, grilled chicken salad with a raspberry vinagrette dressing and mangos topped off with several Ice House beers...

I don't think the car could be salvaged. :D

claymore1500
June 21, 2009, 02:13 PM
And whatever you do, DON'T LIGHT ANY MATCHES

Can anyone say W.M.D.

hogdogs
June 21, 2009, 02:38 PM
I don't know about the laws where you live but here in Florida, I do believe you have the right to stop someone who is burglarizing your home/property.
I don't know how I missed this... maybe it was posted while MY eyes were watering.

But under no circumstances is it legal to use lethal force to stop a property only crime. If you are in the car and a thug tries to jack it from you, you can feel that the risk to your life was elevated to the point that lethal force is justified but you cannot walk up to your car to stop the theft of car or contents with lethal force.
If you are in the home and it is intruded upon you can use lethal force to protect your life or health not your property.
Brent

Lost Sheep
June 21, 2009, 04:17 PM
A little off-topic, but only a little.

I observe an acceptance of laws that seem to have turned us into cast members of the novel/movie A Clockwork Orange.

Depressing.

Contact your legislators. Become a legislator.

Lost Sheep.

pacerdude
June 21, 2009, 07:30 PM
Wow I love this thread! And I will stick to OC spray, I didnt realize the wasp spray stuff was illegal( I have never held a can of it, and my mom suggested it). :D

Mike in VA
June 21, 2009, 08:12 PM
Yeah, hose him with OC, then hose him some more.

Just for idle speculation, though, I wonder what the scummie's reaction would be if you doused him with flamable liquid, stepped back and let him hear the 'ker-clink' of snapping your Zippo open . . . . :D

DougO83
June 22, 2009, 03:19 AM
Speaking of the hose, use a pressure washer. It won't cause any permanent damage (usually) and can hurt like hell...

Jim March
June 22, 2009, 01:16 PM
There would sure as hell be some temptation to blow a hole in his foot...

Glenn E. Meyer
June 22, 2009, 01:31 PM
By the time, I dig my pressure washer out of the garage and hook it up, the guy is probably gone.

The OC sounds like a good bet. Keep one by the front door and/or in the garage.

BTW, in the garage - I have one of those 25 foot range Wasp sprays (which are bad for you). That's a nice treat.

markj
June 22, 2009, 04:50 PM
For wasps, use diesel fuel in a plastic spray bottle, wont ignite and the wasps will die as soon as it hits em. Diesel needs high temps to ignite a lighter or match wont do it.

It also works in a BGs eyes, spray then run to a phone...

Mannlicher
June 22, 2009, 05:00 PM
I'll admit I did not read all the thread, but how did the guy get there? Is his car parked in front of your house? You could do a little pay back right then with a ball bat against his head lights and windshield.

Speaking of that ball bat, a few hefty whacks against the soles of his feet would put him in a different frame of mind as well.

Bigfatts
June 22, 2009, 06:21 PM
So let me get this straight, a leg's hangin' out the door of my Mustang and some ass-hat is yanking the stereo I installed myself? He does not respond favorably to my commands. I know I can't shoot him but I'll slam his leg in the door hard enough to get his attention and hold it to keep him there. If he wants to get froggy after that it's his call. Either way, before he decides there'll be 85 pounds of fur, teeth and mad at being woke up comin' in the other door of the car. My dog always goes out with me at night. Takin' the garbage out, gettin' something out of the car, etc.

WeedWacker
June 22, 2009, 09:59 PM
The way I see it, from a legal standpoint, deadly force is out of the question as is assault. However, if it falls within the law that force can be applied to prevent him from leaving, just lean on the door and wait the half hour for the cops. :D (Worst case scenario is he loses a leg or his foot due to loss of circulation to his extremity at which point he probably could sue you and win... :barf:)

teeroux
June 22, 2009, 10:09 PM
Well that all depends on where your from reading the laws for your home states is the best way on finding out what you can do and can't do. Where you are from it may be illegal to put a whoopin on him but where I'm from if he is up to anything not good on my property I can whoop em and throw him in the ditch for the cops to scoop up and take to jail.

Hornett
June 23, 2009, 08:48 AM
Diesel needs high temps to ignite a lighter or match wont do it.Not entirely true.
I use diesel all the time to burn brush piles because it doesn't explode like gasoline does.
Gasoline evaporates very quickly and fills the surrounding air with fumes.
When you touch a match to the pile (or get a match close to the pile)... FOOM! a big scary mushroom cloud like explosion occurs.
Diesel fuel doesn't evaporate like gas does and burns more slowly.
Diesel ignites in an engine because of the high pressure and temperature.

And as a result of this thread, I am going out to get some OC spray.
It seems like a good idea to have some around.

zxcvbob
June 23, 2009, 08:59 AM
Since there can be some issues with "recoil" using spew... I prefer to prepare in advance and use exhaust fumes... Just last night I was testing a new formulation using egg salad samiches, grilled chicken salad with a raspberry vinagrette dressing and mangos topped off with several Ice House beers... Brought tears to my daughters eyes without direct dispersal. One of them let loose in the vehicle and slam door shut and I WIN!!!

I still think a can of air freshener spray (mentioned 100-ish posts ago), in that enclosed space would be worse. Plus, it'd probably be easier to salvage the car afterwards. Egg salad and cheap beer fumes could ruin the upholstery and etch all the windows :D

OldMarksman
June 23, 2009, 09:53 AM
Something to consider.

Some months ago in New York State, there was a real incident along the lines of the scenario described

Before anyone jumps to the conclusion that the state in question is the reason, be aware that NYS is one of the very few places in which a non-sworn citizen can legally use deadly force to effect a citizen's arrest (under limited circumstances, of course). Not applicable here but intended to put things in perspective. You cannot do that in Florida, for example.

A law abiding citizen and licensed handgun owner want outside at night to investigate noises from some guys who were getting into parked cars.

A couple of them fled, but one approached the man. He fired, killing the perp.

The citizen said it was self-defense. No weapon was found.

The DA, who supports the right of law abiding citizens to have guns, filed charges of murder in the first degree.

The grand jury reduced the charge to manslaughter.

Back to the OP: there's the civil and criminal legal risk if things do go south fast, and I'm not fond of going out under the preconceived notion that the guy doesn't have an armed accomplice in the getaway car.

A_McDougal
June 23, 2009, 07:46 PM
Is there a state that doesn't allow citizen's arrests, when you actually witness the felony occur?

For example: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=17276

Brian Pfleuger
June 23, 2009, 07:52 PM
Is there a state that doesn't allow citizen's arrests,...

It's not the arrest part, it's the lethal force to affect the arrest part.

BillCA
June 23, 2009, 08:56 PM
Time to recap some of what we've learned.

Passive resistance negates the implied force of a firearm.
It also reduces your options in how much force you can legally use.
Be prepared to use alternative levels of force at all times.
As long as he passively resists, your use of force must be the minimum necessary to stop or apprehend him.
Permanently injuring him will likely be deemed an illegal assault. Use caution in your application of force.
Provoking him to violence may be viewed as escalating the situation so you could shoot him. Use care.
You do not need to be polite, courteous or nice about your commands or application of force. But you must be within legal limits.
If nothing else, video or photos of him in the act are always good evidence.
It is unwise to attempt to capture - handcuff or tie him up - alone. It's better to drive him away.
If you incapacitate him, you're responsible for his safety (i.e. not allowing him to suffocate, drown, etc.)
The use of non-lethal and non-permanently injuring equipment is preferred -- OC spray, taser, stun gun, etc. - but only to enforce his compliance, not as a punitive action.
Always look for his accomplice(s) and/or his means of escape (car, bike, bicycle, etc.)
Know your state laws regarding arrests and using force to protect your property.


As satisfying as it may be to get your "pound of flesh" for his damaging your property, the legal system does protect him (and everyone else) from excessive and unnecessary force.

Wildalaska
June 23, 2009, 10:13 PM
* Passive resistance negates the implied force of a firearm.
* It also reduces your options in how much force you can legally use.
* Be prepared to use alternative levels of force at all times.
* As long as he passively resists, your use of force must be the minimum necessary to stop or apprehend him.
* Permanently injuring him will likely be deemed an illegal assault. Use caution in your application of force.
* Provoking him to violence may be viewed as escalating the situation so you could shoot him. Use care.
* You do not need to be polite, courteous or nice about your commands or application of force. But you must be within legal limits.
* If nothing else, video or photos of him in the act are always good evidence.
* It is unwise to attempt to capture - handcuff or tie him up - alone. It's better to drive him away.
* If you incapacitate him, you're responsible for his safety (i.e. not allowing him to suffocate, drown, etc.)
* The use of non-lethal and non-permanently injuring equipment is preferred -- OC spray, taser, stun gun, etc. - but only to enforce his compliance, not as a punitive action.
* Always look for his accomplice(s) and/or his means of escape (car, bike, bicycle, etc.)
* Know your state laws regarding arrests and using force to protect your property.


Sounds like a training sesssion for cops in handling civil disobedience...I think I will go chain myself into a porno booth to protest smut... :)

WildhellnoIdontwannagoAlaska TM

Kalindras
June 23, 2009, 10:39 PM
...Where the original post falls, legally, in a Use of Force Continuum?

1) Offender has illegally trespassed on your property. You counter by telling him to leave.

2) Offender has broken and entered your vehicle. You counter by calling the police, who offer no useful solution.

3) Offender is burglarizing your vehicle. You counter by giving direct, forceful orders to cease and exit the premises.

4) Offender refuses to comply with your legitimate orders. You counter...how?


It would seem to me that the incident has escalated to the point of physical force usage at this point. The problem is, do you risk litigation and/or imprisonment by using "enough" force to ensure that the offender is unable to respond violently? Or do you play it "safe," and take the chance that you are overmatched?

In this situation, I would err on the side of it being better to be judged by twelve than carried by six. The problem is, if you let that creep walk off with your stuff, unless you have some sort of iron-clad evidence of your ownership of the stolen objects, once he's off the property (or in some cases even finished with the act of removing from your vehicle), it becomes a he said/she said court battle. It could be possible for the offender to even claim that you kidnapped him! And that you forced him, AT GUNPOINT, to pose for incriminating photos or video...

Sure, it sounds ludicrous, but that we have to actually concern ourselves with such a patently silly situation in the first place pretty well illuminates the corner we've been painted into, societally.

I wouldn't shoot unless my person was threatened, but I certainly would call 911, inform them that I was in the process of apprehending a criminal on my premises and then put the phone on speaker. Then, at least, the entirety of the incident would be recorded and there could be no question that I made every effort to resolve the issue non-lethally. Additionally, if it goes horribly south, medical help could be readily summoned by the operator. From there, it's a crapshoot. There are just too many variables to predict how it would play out. I can play the "What if" game all night on this one (it's a LULU!), but it's all just supposition.

I guess any and/or all of the solutions offered COULD be necessary, but as to which way I'd go on a given day, who can tell?

Sorry that it's not the answer the OP was looking for, but it's the only I've got right now.




P.S.--All that talk about biological warfare in the car...I would report that as W.A.D.'s...Weapon of A$$ Destruction!!! :eek:

:p

Michael Anthony
June 23, 2009, 10:48 PM
If we had some way of rating users Bill, you'd get 230489 Kudocookiefwobs for a thread well done and particularly your last post.

It's amazing how common sense seems like fresh air. Nothing common about common sense right?

I would agree that OC is the most realistic, legal and effective means of getting involved for the majority of people.

Unarmed or hands-on combat is a distant second for most people in my humble opinion. This is based on the probability that he is armed or could improvise a weapon quickly coupled with the requirement to be proficient and confident in your ability.

Both would satisfy your urge to act and meet most legal requirements. In my state you can use a reasonable amount of force to make a citizens arrest. If the situation develops into one requiring deadly force, so long as your actions leading up to it were all legal, you could successfully defend yourself in court against any accusations that you were "party to the difficulty."

Ricky B
June 24, 2009, 04:08 AM
BikerRN gets my vote for the most rational solution. Post #81.

I agree with it so I might be biased. But in terms of "rational," you have to agree that it's free from emotion, and many of the proposed solutions were emotional, not rational.

For example, a thief breaks into your car, the solution is not to stink it up. Isn't that a tad counter-productive? Haven't you just made a bad situation worse? Your car is being broken into and now you make it undriveable (for at least a period of time). Wouldn't people be asking you "What were you thinking?"

In terms of legalities, it's quite clear that the thief has you dead to rights, so to speak. You don't like it? Persuade your legislature to change the rules. This is a democracy, and the majority makes the rules. If you don't like that, so sorry.

If you don't want to follow BikerRN's advice, and if you don't want to crap up your car, the way I see it, you have limited choices:

1. Let's get this one out of the way right up front. Just shoot the guy a soon as he gets out of the car. Lie like hell and testify that he was about to attack you and you feared for your life. If you do a good enough job, and the cops don't investigate adequately to uncover any discrepancies in your story, not only will you not be charged but you will also beat the thief at his own game--you become the bigger criminal.

2. Use some kind of force that the thief finds unpleasant but (a) doesn't damage your car further and (b) is not considered, in the light of 20-20 hindsight, to have been an unreasonable application of force. Zip ties around the ankles has some appeal. Of course, this can be a bit tricky, what with having to use two hands for the zip ties, and of course, having to come closer to the thief, who so far isn't being cooperative. And you have to hope he doesn't have a look-out for the cops who comes to his aid. Or the thief might be as tough as hogdogs or you might be just as much a candy-ass as I am.

One poster said: "Just for idle speculation, though, I wonder what the scummie's reaction would be if you doused him with flamable liquid, stepped back and let him hear the 'ker-clink' of snapping your Zippo open." Technically that could be a battery (in most states) and possibly a terroristic threat, which in CA can be treated as a felony. But amusing to contemplate.

OTOH, a stun gun while he's in the car might be workable. And pepper spray outside the car is also worthy of consideration. (For you, that is. For me, I'll be dialing, whiling away the time (Mossberg 500 by my side), and filing with the insurance company.) I might also be filing a complaint with the PD about the slow response to a crime in progress.

3. Effect a citizen's arrest using reasonable force. Get it right, you just saved your deductible and you're a hero! If necessary to defend yourself, you might be privileged to use deadly force to protect yourself while effecting the arrest. Keep in mind that this is not a variant of 1 above. This option assumes that you legitimately try to restrain him physically and he in fact starts to get the upper hand and you honestly and reasonably believe that you are in danger of being killed or suffering great bodily injury. For me, this is way too complicated to analyze on the spot. Get it wrong and you've just bought into a jackpot. From hero to zero in the time it takes to pull a trigger.

Oh, and just to make it a bit more tricky, state laws can vary on this point. Unlike peace officers, in most states, citizens have immunity for a wrongful arrest, and if you use unreasonable force, you might face criminal charges for battery. Doing so while armed with a handgun in CA, even though it is not used in the offense, can be a big, fat sentence enhancement. You could end up doing way more time than the thief.

4. Just physically harm the guy as you see fit. Now re-read the last sentence of 3 above.

5. As one poster note, what about the thief's car? He had to get there someway. If it's parked nearby, you could get the license plate number.

For the most imaginative solution, I like Trooper Tyree's throw-down gun plan.

My small contribution to the solution would be to train my wife to say something different. Something like: "Honey, the police are on their way and they'll be here in a few minutes. I told them that he was kicking some cop's ass for pulling him over."

It might not be legal for her to misreport, but there's nothing illegal about her making the thief think she did so. :D

Glenn E. Meyer
June 24, 2009, 09:25 AM
Rather than stinking up your car by having your tactical chimp through poop at the guy, I was just thinking one could use an annoying strobing flashlight as a nonlethal response. Just a thought - since I have one.

KingEdward
June 24, 2009, 09:38 AM
Lob a couple hundred M-80s (fused together in the brick package)

in his direction. He will probably skeedaddle.

fireworks are illegal in town where I live but people shoot them off
all summer long anyway. Not once have police responded.

OldMarksman
June 24, 2009, 09:43 AM
Effect a citizen's arrest using reasonable force. Get it right, you just saved your deductible and you're a hero! If necessary to defend yourself, you might be privileged to use deadly force to protect yourself while effecting the arrest.

Any idea what the case law on that might be in different states?

DougO83
June 24, 2009, 09:46 AM
I think that a Taser C2 would be a great option. IIRC it is a 30 second ride. You have the obvious distance advantage over a stun gun and might be better off legally. Also, the dude is obviously nuts and OC has been proven rather ineffective. I had been sprayed 3 or 4 times now for training and it hurts less every time. Outside of my initial reaction to throw my body weight into the door, which would probably destroy a knee since I weigh 270, I would suggest releasing the hounds. "My dog always goes out with me when I take out the trash, your honor." Other less conventional means are great to discuss. Maybe throw the trash on the perp. The water hose is a great idea, especially if it's cold (something we don't see here in Central Texas) Unfortunately, I know my temper and the moment the thieving a-hole laughed at me when I present my weapon I would probably see red and drag him out of the car, disregarding the fact that he may be armed.

Doc Intrepid
June 24, 2009, 09:50 AM
Another alternative is when phoning 911 call it in as a "man with a gun" call, (and you're the man with a gun) rather than a "thief breaking into my car" call. May reduce the delay in response time!

Otherwise, I agree that OC is the optimal alternative given these specific circumstances - if you either (a) habitually carry a can of OC with you when you take out the trash at night; or (b) have it handy in your garage. Also agree that have an alternative "less than lethal force" Plan B available is a wise idea.

Out of the universe of scenarios you may encounter, however, I suspect that this level of bozonity is relatively rare...

DougO83
June 24, 2009, 09:52 AM
Another alternative is when phoning 911 call it in as a "man with a gun" call, (and you're the man with a gun) rather than a "thief breaking into my car" call. May reduce the delay in response time!

We have a solution! And...it isn't a false report if somebody there has a gun. Good call.

Otherwise, I agree that OC is the optimal alternative given these specific circumstances - if you either (a) habitually carry a can of OC with you when you take out the trash at night; or (b) have it handy in your garage. Also agree that have an alternative "less than lethal force" Plan B available is a wise idea.

You can buy the ASP Key Defender or Palm Defender that goes on the keychain. I keep the Key Defender on my flashlight that travels with me when I go out walking at night.

Brian Pfleuger
June 24, 2009, 10:28 AM
Another alternative is when phoning 911 call it in as a "man with a gun" call, (and you're the man with a gun) rather than a "thief breaking into my car" call. May reduce the delay in response time!

That is such an obviously bad idea that it shouldn't even need to be explained why.:eek:

Ricky B
June 24, 2009, 12:21 PM
That is such an obviously bad idea that it shouldn't even need to be explained why

Apparently, some people do need the explanation. :( But you put them on the right track. ;)

Ricky B
June 24, 2009, 01:09 PM
Old Marksman, this is not directly responsive to your inquiry but might of some help in this situation. I came across the standard jury instructions that a CA judge will give in a criminal case where the defense is "defense of property." These instructions are based on CA case law. Note that there is a different set of instructions for intrusion into your dwelling. These instructions below relate only to defense of property:

The owner [or possessor] of (real/ [or] personal) property may use
reasonable force to protect that property from imminent harm. [A
person may also use reasonable force to protect the property of a
(family member/guest/master/servant/ward) from immediate
harm.]

Reasonable force means the amount of force that a reasonable
person in the same situation would believe is necessary to protect
the property from imminent harm.

When deciding whether the defendant used reasonable force,
consider all the circumstances as they were known to and
appeared to the defendant and consider what a reasonable person
in a similar situation with similar knowledge would have believed. If the defendant’s beliefs were reasonable, the danger does not
need to have actually existed.

The People have the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt
that the defendant used more force than was reasonable to protect
property from imminent harm. If the People have not met this
burden, you must find the defendant not guilty of
<insert crime>.

The key here is the sentence: Reasonable force means the amount of force that a reasonable person in the same situation would believe is necessary to protect the property from imminent harm.

So if the thief is injured in CA (and my guess is that this would be an issue only if there were either a serious injury or a permanent injury) and the police believe that you used unreasonable force, the jury will decide, after the fact, whether the force you used was reasonable. In other words, if the situation is at all unclear, one would have to decide on the spot what 12 people who he's never met would say about his actions in retrieving a stereo, air bag, and other car parts.

As far as citizen's arrest goes, I can't imagine any state granting a citizen the privilege of using force greater than what a sworn peace officer is permitted to use.

Hornett
June 24, 2009, 02:09 PM
Don't compare with police officers.
They are entirely different.
At some point a police officer can take you down (really hard) for not complying with commands because the BG is then resisting arrest.

markj
June 24, 2009, 02:22 PM
The anti theft device in robo cop is what every car should have factory.

Lob a small package of c4 into the car. close the doors, run and ignite.

The tactical chimp would need the trunk to be opened as that is where mine is most of the time.

A cat that poops when thrown could come in handy here.

Ben the rat and his friends come out of the sewers and do their job?

No I will whip out the mighty cell phone and dial that majical number 911 and report a guy is getting tore up by a dog in my car. Make sure you can hose it out later.

No reason for gun play here.......

scottaschultz
June 24, 2009, 05:39 PM
Lob a small package of c4 into the car. close the doors, run and ignite.If you do that, make sure your car is a Volkswagen Polo!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSSWeGBkf9o

Scott

Walter
June 24, 2009, 06:03 PM
:mad:I believe I would retreat to the house, collect my wife's ONE MILLION VOLT stun gun. :D If several jolt of that didn't change his mind, I
might just let him have the car.:rolleyes:

Walter

hogdogs
June 24, 2009, 06:21 PM
If they steal my junker truck, THEY DESERVE IT!:D It would take $500 in my hand to take it back!:cool:
Brent

bestbod85
June 25, 2009, 05:34 AM
GOOD thread!

I had a similar experience last year, someone was trying to steal my lights off of my garage (don't ask me why). i came outside after i heard some scratching against the house ( around 2am) and there was a guy standing there with a screwdriver trying to get our decorative lights off of our garage! i was dumbfounded and told the guy to leave - they guy said "not until i get my lights" "you stole em' " at that point it was clear he was on something so i call local pd. he was mad at this and dropped the screwdriver and tried to tackle me! long story short he ended up in the hospital trying to convince the cops that he was going to press charges on me for stealing his lights - weird stuff out there

XpatBubba
June 25, 2009, 11:52 PM
If they are already inside my truck and have already got my stereo, hell I know they would have found at least one gun in there. My girlfriend would have released the dogs and been on the 2nd story deck with shotgun without instruction. I think I would have a hard time making a lot of rational decisions with the guy actually laughing. I would not be able to handle that. It would have already have gotten to the face stomping, unless of course he wanted to try and draw that smokewagon he was trying to steal...

ImprobableJoe
June 26, 2009, 12:02 AM
You slip to a window and tell a family member what's happening and to call 911. When you return, you decide to confront Carl Carthief to prevent further damage to your car.

Fail. Once you walk away, you don't really have a right to walk back over to the guy. Lethal force should only be used to protect yourself and your family, IMO. Your car stereo shouldn't be worth killing for, no matter how insecure you feel about your manhood. The fact that you have time to walk past the criminal, knock on a window, wake someone up and talk to them about calling the police means that you did not feel that you were in danger. Returning to the place where the crime is happening means that YOU are escalating the situation, and if you then shoot the person you are at least partially at fault.

Not being required to retreat doesn't give you the right to advance and engage.

Ricky B
June 26, 2009, 10:27 AM
Not being required to retreat doesn't give you the right to advance and engage.

That's true as far as self-defense goes, but the owner or lawful occupant of real property also has the right to use reasonable force to eject a trespasser (and to protect personal property), at least in CA. See the initial (and currently only) post in the thread on "California law on self-defense, defense of property, etc." that I started. Therefore an owner or lawful occupant does have the right to advance and engage a trespasser and use reasonable force to make him leave.

If the trespasser then raises the stakes to where the owner or lawful occupant reasonably fears death or great bodily injury, and the owner or lawful occupant has to use deadly force to defend himself, he would be privileged to do so.

This situation differs from the typical bar fight where the aggressor loses his right to self-defense. The trespasser has no right to be where he is and the owner or lawful occupant has every right to try to make him leave. That doesn't make the owner or lawful occupant the aggressor.

The risk that one runs in this scenario is that the facts get jumbled and the owner or lawful occupant is deemed to have used deadly force to eject a trespasser or to protect property.

A more serious risk is that the owner or lawful occupant gets seriously injured or killed by the thief.

ROGER4314
June 26, 2009, 06:06 PM
In Texas, the rules change as soon as the sun goes down. You are not bound by the reasonable expectation that the bad guy will kill you once it gets dark. You may defend your property as needed. Daytime in Texas.....it is clearly not a shooting situation. Night time.....you may get a pat on the back from authorities as long as a stray slug doesn't hit your neighbor.

What I can not understand in these posts is why we gag on the lethal force issue when there are so many other ways we could defend our property? Make no mistake, I would NOT shoot this thief. At 6'1" and 260 pounds, that guy would beg me to shoot him after I got done correcting his behavior.

How about a bucket of cold water? That is using NON lethal force to protect my property. Make it so darned unpleasant for him to continue, that he will change what he's doing. If he had enough and came at me with a weapon, it is time to pop a cap and no court would convict me.

I worked for several years in the Texas prison system. There are lots of hard a-- guys who could whip me in there. For behavior correction, you find what hurts them and use that. If a guy is immune to physical pain, take away visitation with his children and he will cry like a baby. Use whatever works .................and .......it isn't always violence. Same goes with lethal force.

Flash

Texas Man
June 26, 2009, 09:41 PM
Since he didn't want to comply in your gunpoint orders to stop dissasembly of your car I would put a shot through his ear and when he's daised put him on the ground until the cops show up.

And if he wasn't trying to harm me or my family I wouldn't try kill him, because you are probobly puttin him in hell for eternity.

ImprobableJoe
June 26, 2009, 09:46 PM
I think automatic lights and loud alarms are a good idea, and would eliminate most situations where shooting someone would become necessary. Anyone who doesn't run away when a loud alarm and floodlights go off is someone who you probably wouldn't have to think once about shooting.

I liked ROGER4314's idea about a bucket of cold water for about 3 seconds, and then I thought about it. Then, it seemed like a TERRIBLE idea. All cold water will do is **** someone off, and make them more violent. Tasers and pepper spray might work better... although pepper spray in your car might linger, it can't be much worse that getting out blood and brains from the seats.

Hardtarget
June 26, 2009, 11:25 PM
I'm not talking to "dirt bag" at all...yet.
Leg sticking out?...my body weight hard on the door...broken leg...now I'll talk.

We will wait for the police and medical transport. If he gets aggressive, we'll wait for the coroners wagon.

I've had five break-ins of vehicles. The last one broke a $700.00 window to get a $150.00 radio...it will get ugly quick if I catch the next one!

Mark

m&p45acp10+1
June 27, 2009, 12:55 AM
I think my statement would be gee officer I was reaching into my car to get a pack of smokes and spilled my coffee. I heard a sream and noticed there was someone in my car.:D
200 degree coffee to the groin may make him change his mind. Honestly the alarm on my truck would have gone off before that more than likely detering somone from attempting to steal something out of it.

OldMarksman
June 27, 2009, 07:09 AM
I wonder what this guy had in mind when he went outside?

He had a gun, and went to confront what he thought was one man, who turned out to not have a gun but who did have a knife, near his trailer parked outside. He didn't go out alone, either.

The article doesn't include much detail about the initial encounter.

Do you suppose the homeowner told the man "not to move and to raise his hands slowly?" Do you suppose that the man looked over his shoulder and said "no?"

Well, even if it did happen to start out as passive non-compliance, it didn't stay that way.

What do you think the man intended to do with the gun, anyway?

All meaningless conjecture of course, but I somehow doubt that the homeowner was chuckling to himself about how he might use hot coffee, cold water, fireworks, zip ties, ammonia, brake cleaner, etc., and more importantly, I doubt that any of those things would have had a positive effect on the outcome.

A car up the street from me was burgled the other night (one of four or five in our peaceful community that night).

There were prints from two perps on the car, and the police believe that there may have been a third person in a car.

My neighbor was angry that he had not heard the commotion and gone outside to confront them. Normal reaction, I guess. Me? I'll stay inside.

One of the ideas behind the castle doctrine is that if you are in your home, you are supposed to be safe in it. That's usually true.

Not so when you venture out to confront someone in the dark.

Doctors had to amputate the arm of a Watauga, Texas homeowner Wednesday morning after he was injured in a fight with a crook. The man interrupted a robbery attempt in front of his house and ended up getting stabbed and then shot with his own gun, reports CBS station KTVT-TV in Dallas.

Debris – including the homeowner's shotgun – from the scuffle was scattered in the yards of several homes as police continued their investigation nearly seven hours after the man first interrupted the robbery, authorities said.

According to reports, the homeowner heard some noise near his portable trailer parked outside his house in the 6000 block of Sundown Drive and went outside. His wife called 911 and woke a friend who had stayed the night at the house.

The robber, who was armed with a knife, struggled with the homeowner and his guest in the driveway. During the scuffle the homeowner dropped his gun and as the men clamored for the weapon, it went off and hit the homeowner in the arm. The house guest was also stabbed during the altercation.

Officials later said doctors amputated the man's arm because his injuries were so severe. The injury is a detrimental loss for the victim, who works as a mechanic for American Airlines and was also a part-time contractor.

One neighbor heard the gunshot, but dismissed the noise because he did not suspect it would have been a gunshot in his neighborhood.

Police continue their search for the alleged thief/attacker. "Since daylight we found a few additional items that came out of the trailer," explained Watauga Police Det. Jason Babcock. "Apparently whoever broke in to this trailer took some items and stashed them along the way in between houses."

Residents in the neighborhood say they will now be more diligent about their personal safety, including Nancy Bennett, who usually works nights and comes home in the early morning hours. She thinks the man could have been searching for an easy target.

Police believe there may have been more than one suspect. There were security cameras set up on the garage but they weren't working.

Authorities urge residents to call police instead of confronting anyone at any time of the day.


http://wjz.com/watercooler/texas.stabbing.burglary.2.852306.html

Bigfatts
June 29, 2009, 05:42 PM
My wife's cousin had an alarm installed in his SUV that had tweeters inside the car. One under each front seat and one under the rear. He set them off one time as a joke when I was sitting in the car. Ear piercing doesn't even begin to describe it. Not only could I not hear for about an hour, I couldn't walk straight. But once I got my equilibrium back he quit laughing. Seems like that would be a good choice, though it would have to be already installed in the car. Hit the panic button and watch him squirm.

Stevie-Ray
June 29, 2009, 06:27 PM
BTW: I know how to legally turn that 30 minute response time in to three minutes, and it's available for anyone to do, LEO or not.Well, that'd be to have the wife call 911 again and lie, "I think my husband just shot the guy; remember when you come that the guy with the gun is the good guy.:D

Personally, here I usually have a DVD camera handy and charged, so I'd probably slam the door on his legs, and then start filming his egress. Even if he simply fled, he'd be limping. If he wanted more than that, well....

jfrey123
July 7, 2009, 09:12 AM
Wow, looks like this party is over already, but felt compelled to add my .02:


State of Nevada allows for any person to make an arrest of a suspected criminal. State of Nevada also allows for defense of ones property, which I'm sure plays along with the "reasonable amount of force". I'm not one to shoot and ask questions later, but I wouldn't be able to sit and watch, hoping the police come. I'd be hands on somewhere, probably whooping some sort of hiney.

So I'm different from the primary example. I'm not going to be gun drawn when I walk out the door, so when he looks at me and says "no", I'm going to reply "um.... YES!" and proceed to yank him from out of my car by his exposed legs, mount him and hold him like a high school wrestler (familiar turf for me).




NRS 171.104 Arrest defined; by whom made. An arrest is the taking of a person into custody, in a case and in the manner authorized by law. An arrest may be made by a peace officer or by a private person.

NRS 171.126 Arrest by private person. A private person may arrest another:

1. For a public offense committed or attempted in his presence.

2. When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in his presence.

3. When a felony has been in fact committed, and he has reasonable cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it.

OldMarksman
July 7, 2009, 10:26 AM
State of Nevada allows for any person to make an arrest of a suspected criminal.

I believe you will find that all states except North Carolina provide for citizen's arrests under at least some circumstances.

There are two problems: (1) you have to know what you are doing, and how, to avoid the risk of criminal prosecution, and (2) (probably much more serious) your civil liability may exceed your net worth by several fold.

When sworn officers make an arrest, they have approved procedures and rules of engagement to help ensure not only that their actions are proper but also that the evidence protects them to the greatest extent practical from charges of wrong-doing--and they are trained. Even so, a perp and his lawyer may allege that unlawful force was used.

Both the cost of the defense (which could be stratospherical) and the cost of any out-of-court settlement or civil judgment (either of which could be astronomical) are borne by the taxpayers.

Not so for the citizen.

Twist his arm to hold him, and listen to the experts whose fees you will probably end up paying describe afterward how said action on your part has impaired his earnings ability, prevented his spouse from enjoying consortium, etc.

Hold him and discover that he is having a seizure and see what develops.

Attorneys I know strongly advise against trying a citizens arrest. I won't even think about it.

Further, before the law here was changed to shield citizens from civil liability stemming from a legally justifiable use of deadly force, attorneys advised that while one who had lawfully defended himself against forcible home invasion, for example, might easily avoid criminal sanctions (his requirement is to show reasonable doubt), the invader's family might nonetheless become wealthy at the citizen's expense (their burden is a preponderance of the evidence).

It is said that the law was amended because that had been happening. Helps in a self defense case. Not when you are detaining someone.

I'm sure that many will think the laws are unreasonable--that they favor the "BG" over the "law abiding citizen".

But we found a long, long time ago that we have to have laws to prevent one person from violently attacking another in a dispute over property, for example, to keep gangs from running our neighborhoods, to keep the crooked sheriff and his co-conspirators from extorting money from the ranchers, and to keep bad policemen from doing bad things to the "good guys." That's why each and every one of us is guaranteed due process. That's why we have police departments, prosecutors, courts, and attorneys, both civil and criminal. That's why we have contracts, deeds of title, etc., not to mention laws about theft, robbery, rape, murder, counterfeiting---and justifiable homicide.

Sorry for the rant, but a lot of people seem to believe that if they have a gun, they are always the "GGs" and that everyone else is a "BG," and that any constraints on their behavior are unreasonable.

State of Nevada also allows for defense of ones property, which I'm sure plays along with the "reasonable amount of force".

Do you know of anywhere in the country in which that is not true?

Hornett
July 7, 2009, 12:54 PM
My money is on the wrestler. :D

taz1
July 7, 2009, 01:55 PM
Old joke as noise.

sakeneko
July 7, 2009, 01:58 PM
Reasonable response to noise but since noise was deleted, so shall this be.

BillCA
July 7, 2009, 11:33 PM
Actually the funniest idea was suggested by someone in a PM -- letting your pet ferrets loose up the guy's pants legs. :D

Fail. Once you walk away, you don't really have a right to walk back over to the guy. Lethal force should only be used to protect yourself and your family, IMO. Your car stereo shouldn't be worth killing for, no matter how insecure you feel about your manhood. The fact that you have time to walk past the criminal, knock on a window, wake someone up and talk to them about calling the police means that you did not feel that you were in danger. Returning to the place where the crime is happening means that YOU are escalating the situation, and if you then shoot the person you are at least partially at fault.

Not being required to retreat doesn't give you the right to advance and engage.

Ricky B's post after yours was well written and, I think, mostly correct. If you spot someone committing a crime (or possible crime) on your property or suspect they are trying to take your property, you do have the right to "confront" them to order them to stop. "Disengaging" to have a 2nd party call police is simply a prudent step.

WRT civil lawsuits everyone seems to be so afraid of...
Sure, any lawyer can try to tweak the facts to his client's benefit. But if we're doing things right, we remind the jury that;
1. The so called "plaintiff" was engaged in criminal conduct;
2. On your property;
3. And failed to cease his criminal conduct when ordered to do so;
4. Was given ample opportunity to depart the area or surrender;
5. Refused either of those options;
6. Would not have been hurt had HE made the right decision (leaving).
7. Was seriously injured only after threatening or using force to resist lawful citizens arrest or capture.

Had he not been engaged in criminal conduct OR had he departed OR not used force to resist -- all of which are HIS choices -- he would not have suffered injuries.

sylathnie
July 11, 2009, 02:01 PM
I didn't read all of the posts so I'm not sure if someone mentioned this or something similar:
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x79/sylathnie/IMG_3747.jpg

Short flash to make him lose his night vision. Back off to put him in the dark... repeat. It will get considerably harder to take apart a car and make him much more inept at other tasks.

slabsides45
July 14, 2009, 08:23 PM
Apologies if this has already been posted, I was too lazy to read 9 pages of responses. My answer is:

-go tell the wife to call 911 and tell them there's been a shooting and this guy's really hurt bad. That'd get them there in under "30 minutes."
-Next, I'd close the door of the vehicle. If his leg were in the way, so be it, but it would be closed very quickly. "Officer, when I confronted him, he tried to get up and turn, so I kicked the door to slow him down..."
-If he then came at me with a screwdriver or drill, hey, that's a deadly weapon.

Imperfect, but hey, it might work...

jgcoastie
July 15, 2009, 04:07 AM
- Get in and start driving?
- Walk across the street to MILPOL and tell them to get their fat hindparts over to my house?
- Do what I have been trained to do with active resistors; kicks, punches, stuns, takedowns, and/or OC spray in an effort to gain control of the situation...
- If he tries to go hands-on, I'd step up to an intermediate weapon; idealy a baton, but a maglite or similar blunt striking tool would suffice.
- Deadly force is not morally justified for a friggin stereo, regardless of how you read the state laws. All of these Billy-bada**es that think that a gun, a CC license, and a castle law gives them the right to go outside guns a' blazin' no matter what need to seriously reconsider their so-called tactics, their moral fiber, and keep a very expensive lawyer on retainer.

buzz_knox
July 15, 2009, 07:43 AM
go tell the wife to call 911 and tell them there's been a shooting and this guy's really hurt bad. That'd get them there in under "30 minutes."


That would constitute making a false report in many jurisdictions. If they caught the guy, you might find yourself sharing a ride to the station with him.

- Do what I have been trained to do with active resistors; kicks, punches, stuns, takedowns, and/or OC spray in an effort to gain control of the situation...
- If he tries to go hands-on, I'd step up to an intermediate weapon; idealy a baton, but a maglite or similar blunt striking tool would suffice.
- Deadly force is not morally justified for a friggin stereo, regardless of how you read the state laws. All of these Billy-bada**es that think that a gun, a CC license, and a castle law gives them the right to go outside guns a' blazin' no matter what need to seriously reconsider their so-called tactics, their moral fiber, and keep a very expensive lawyer on retainer.

Why are you willing to approach the suspect or get into a fight over a stereo? As for "intermediate weapon," those are also called bludgeons/ deadly weapons in many jurisdictions. He zigs when you think he's going to zag, and you are going to need that very expensive lawyer.

GetYerShells
July 15, 2009, 08:16 AM
So glad I live in Texas

Hornett
July 15, 2009, 08:25 AM
I would just like to take a minute or two and vent on a couploe of what I believe to be misconceptions.

Many people have said "Whay risk a fight (or whatever) just for a stereo.
While I probably would not immediately confront the BG (not my way), it's really about more than a stereo.
It is a flagrant disregard for me, my property, my family, and everything that I believe in.
This BG does not care about anything.
To me, it proves that he is capable of anything, including harming my family.
If he gets away today, he will do this or worse to me or someone else. Guaranteed.
I can't say that I would know what I would do, but my ultimate goal would be to get this guy in jail.
I want him to meet a police officer... tonight.

The other thing I see is so many people willing to lie to the police.
I would say he came at me.
I would say I thought he had a gun.
It sounds cute and fun but in reality it puts you in the same place the BG is at.
Twisting the law to get your way.
All this hokey making up stories to be able to do the right thing comes from litigation.
We are a lawyer heavy society.
To me, I do what I feel I must do and no more.
Whatever I decide to do, I would make no apologies for it and I would not make up stories about it.
With actions come consequences.
Made up stories won't really help in the long run, it just turns you a little bit to the dark side.

onthejon55
July 15, 2009, 05:27 PM
id have my wife bring me a baseball bat and beat then have the policed follow the blood trail when they arrive.

OldMarksman
July 15, 2009, 05:51 PM
id have my wife bring me a baseball bat and beat then have the policed follow the blood trail when they arrive.

Either you missed post #17, or you are willing to risk the consequences of using deadly force unlawfully, or both.

If it is illegal to inflict serious physical injury or to kill the man, it won't matter what instrument you use to do it - whether it's a firearm or a baseball bat, it would fit under the "deadly force" statute just as well.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3551526&postcount=17

Keep in mind that the origins of almost all of the laws in this country that relate to the use of deadly force trace back to a time before people had firearms.

I'm sure you understood that and were being facetious.

Ricky B
July 15, 2009, 10:32 PM
Whatever I decide to do, I would make no apologies for it and I would not make up stories about it.
With actions come consequences.
Made up stories won't really help in the long run, it just turns you a little bit to the dark side.

Amen.

I find the posts about taking certain actions and then lying about what happened to be disturbing.

Trooper Tyree
July 15, 2009, 10:42 PM
Thinking outside the box

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trooper Tyree
I have a Daisy BB pistol, chrome, can't tell it's not real at night. I'd walk up to the door opposite him, open door, toss it inside to the floorboard or seat beside him. Grunt "throwaway gun". Slam the door. Walk around to the other side, pull my piece and wait.

Note I'm not advocating throwaway guns or giving him a fake gun so you can shoot him. Not at all. We're just thinking outside the box.

What I am doing is guessing that someone cool enough to know that you can't shoot them for what they are doing, will know that the situation dynamics have changed dramatically now that they think I put a gun in the car with them. They will know that from the legal standpoint, you can shoot an armed robber. I'd expect them to get a whole lot more cooperative in a hurry.

They might ask to give themselves up, they might bolt and take off, or they might toss the gun out the window and tell you to quit interrupting them you're disturbing their concentration. If you have the right persona though, you could throw them off their game.


For a good ole Southern boy who's mama didn't raise him to be makin' guesses in front of Yankee Captains, that's pretty good thinking Tyree.

A little psy-ops to play with his mind. If he tosses the gun out the car you could always mutter "Good. Fingerprints." to keep him wondering.
__________________

Exactly along the lines of what I was thinking Bill, and I see you know who Trooper Tyree was. :D Pity they don't make'em like they used to.

Cheers!