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pacerdude
June 16, 2009, 09:43 AM
JohnKSA suggested I start a new thread about what to do when your car or home is broken into. Two nights ago my car was broken into in my driveway. The people who did it are probably the thugs my mom reported tothe police. They know that my mom reported them to the cops and last week while my mom was home alone, several instances happened in which these same people attempted to get into the house. My mom was so afraid that she did not sleep last week and instead took her pistol and tried to stay awake all night. Well, fast forward to this week and my car was broken in to. Yes that annoys me, but its only a car.
My problem is that they have been scaring my mother and it escalated into an actual theft and brake in. Now, after my car was broken into, we installed a really expensive camera and digital recording system. Well, they came back last night and parked their car at the edge of our driveway and got out to snoop around and point at the house (they also took a picture or two of our driveway), then they saw the Infrared light and freaked after looking right at it. Well they drove off in a hurry with their tires squealing.
Everyone says call the police, and we did. They pulled the same car over and they said they were waiting on a friend. As to the previous incidents with my mom they said they cant do anything until a physical threat has been posed. To me that is unacceptable. Last night after they came back I stayed up all night with my mom and watched them circle the house some more. I am worried they will try something when she or my sister is home all alone. Yes she and I have guns and Georgia has Castle Doctrine, but after seeing them case our house in person and then watching it again on video, I am not happy.
So what would you guys suggest/and what are your opinions?
I would never shoot anyone over property but these idiots came back right after this clearly planning something.

bdturner
June 16, 2009, 10:03 AM
I would first contact the police commander not just the shift supervisor but the chief. Let him know what is going on and be sure that a report is made. Ask for a copy of the report and store it in a safe place. Request that the police do an extra patrol of your neighborhood. Get together with your neighbors and form a community watch program. You cannot be home all the time and the chances of the thugs coming back and getting caught increases. Are your neighbors having the same problem with these people?

samurai30047
June 16, 2009, 10:07 AM
Motion detector lights are reasonable these days. That's a good deterrent. Putting the house up for sale is something else that could be checked into. These guys seem bent on confrontation. Obviously locks are also an option and that can all get expensive. I feel for you man. Keep reporting stuff to the police. Be a pain in their ass, they'll either keep an eye out or avoid the place depending on their work ethic or load. Fact is you are showing a pattern of harassment of your mom. You also need to keep a running journal of times and dates of instances of trouble. This thing may end up in court and any documentation you can present to the prosecution will show pattern and intent.
Keep the video of the faces recorded somewhere safe for future references. That could be huge.
I bought a Sharpei, Shepard mix from the humane society and she's a 41 pound centurian. She'll alert me to stuff all the time and she looks like a pitbull so people naturally give us room when I walk her. Which is frequent. Good for both of us and for local jerks to see the muscle and teeth that is as fond of me as I am of her. If somebody was messing with my mom I'd be going crazy right now, I feel for you bro. Keep your cell phone on you so if somebody does need a police response the phone is there.
When I go out for a walk or store run, I have my Glock 27, extra mag, cell phone, keys and badge wallet. If something happens be very cooperative with the cops and tell them on the phone what you are wearing so they don't get you mixed up with the bad guy(s). I'd keep the line with the dispatcher so she can relay everything as it happens. Years ago a c/o had to shoot an escaped prisoner and kept his radio keyed the entire time. He was cleared.

TailGator
June 16, 2009, 10:09 AM
Keep calling the police every time they show up. You may yet get an officer who takes a personal interest in your problem, and you will have a record of their harassment should ever be forced to fire. Those may records may also help you in getting . . .

An injunction. Violation of an injunction gives the police something to act on.

You can also hope that the security camera is going to provide a deterrent, especially since they seemed to react to it when they first saw it.

I can understand you being concerned and frightened. You, your mother, and your sister should be prepared for something serious happening. It is time to call a family meeting and discuss such things as which room is safest, making sure that you have a telephone to use if you have to retreat to a safe room, and yes, the reality of self defense with lethal force. It sounds like you should also be discussing situational awareness with your family, especially with regards to such things as getting to and from the car safely, having keys out, and so on.

I have read a couple of your posts, and I am still not clear on what started all this. Might some insight into history help people here advise you? Also, how old is your sister? That might help folks advise you on how to coach her in safety matters.

pacerdude
June 16, 2009, 10:15 AM
The video surveillance system we bought is pretty cool and the cameras show scary detail. I think they are mad because my mom called the cops on them a while back. We also called the sherriff out last night and he pulled them over but chose not to watch our video. Anyway, it was surreal to watch them get out of their car and snoop around on the video. I was looking at them in person and never noticed that they actually got out of the car and took a picture. My mom is going to get a shotgun and practice on my grandpas land. I know confronting them at night with my gun drawn is a terrible idea, but watching them on my front yard casing the house and taking pictures really rubs me the wrong way. What else would you guys do?, we have an alarm system, video surveillance and motion sensing lights...

Freakdaddy
June 16, 2009, 10:18 AM
As stated, maintain the paper trail with the police plus many other good ideas regarding lights and a dog. More importantly, your mom and sister need to have some kind of safe word so they don't end up shooting each other by mistake. My kids are at the age where they just come down for visits here and there. They know they do not come in the house without calling and talking to either me or my wife. That may be something that your family needs to do as well. Even though your mom and sister have access to guns, are they in the mindset to use it should things go south? You should really enforce that to them as it would be terrible for these thugs to take the gun away and use it on them. Good luck with all of this.

pacerdude
June 16, 2009, 10:20 AM
It all started when my mom was at home alone and guys were screwing around outside our house, in the yard and she called the police. Since then it has escalated, my car was broken into yesterday morning. And last night they came back and were brazen enough to get out of their car and take what appeared to be pictures. Then they saw the infrared light of one of our cameras, looked at it and drove off. I am concerned because in the Fall I will be back in school at UGA. Athens is an hour and a half drive without traffic from where my mom lives. My little brother is 15 and my sister is 13, and in the fall they and my mom will be the only ones home.

pacerdude
June 16, 2009, 10:25 AM
Bdturner, to answer your question yes the neighbors are having trouble with them. On the same day my car was broken into, a car down the street was broken into as well (although his car was unlocked and they busted his window out unneccesarily). But our neighbors keep to themselves and apparently no one saw anything.

john in jax
June 16, 2009, 10:42 AM
Go shake hands and get face to face with the officers that cover your mom's neighborhood, express your concerns, see if they'll watch the video. Ask for extra coverage.

Keep collecting video evidence and keep copies off site. If the police choose to do nothing or can't do anything contact your state's attorney.

Keep a detailed log of WHO you spoke with, WHEN, and WHAT was said. If the situation gets worse seek out a reporter at a news station, scary video + sensational story of a nice old lady harassed by a gang should get a response.

BikerRN
June 16, 2009, 10:54 AM
You've been given some good advice, that I will reinforce.

"Keep a paper trail." Documentation may be what save you all if it turns ugly.

Biker

OuTcAsT
June 16, 2009, 10:55 AM
I can understand you being concerned and frightened. You, your mother, and your sister should be prepared for something serious happening. It is time to call a family meeting and discuss such things as which room is safest, making sure that you have a telephone to use if you have to retreat to a safe room, and yes, the reality of self defense with lethal force. It sounds like you should also be discussing situational awareness with your family, especially with regards to such things as getting to and from the car safely, having keys out, and so on.


Quite correct, you need to be pro-active in coming up with a plan that your Mom and Sister can implement so that there is no confusion when things turn ugly. Find the safest room in the house, preferably one that has no easy window access from outside, put a good lock on the door to that room, and have them bunker down in there. They should have the firearm, a cell phone with the power cord and one should call 911 and stay on the line until help arrives, if someone breaches that door, they need to be prepared to defend themselves. Practice this drill, several times, until it is automatic. As advised earlier, contact your police department's administration (Chief,Commissioner,Watch Commander) and explain in detail what is happening, they are in a better position to order more patrols.

The thing that sticks out in my mind (from personal experience) is that there seems to be some "personal" connection between these thugs, and your Mom's house for some reason. I have no Idea of you, or your sister's ages, but this sounds suspiciously like some sort of "teenage grudge" type thing, you might want to question your sister about that, or think if someone might have cause to be targeting you. Not accusing, just curious.


ETA: I see this started when your mom called the police on the first occasion, You have been given some good advice as far as keeping good records, and making contact with the police, and states atty. You should also get the neighborhood involved, go door to door and tell everyone what is happening, give them descriptions of the thugs and their vehicle, the more eyes you have on the problem the better.

45guy
June 16, 2009, 10:56 AM
You might arrange a lay off for a semester and stay home as much as possible. Get your mom, sister and brother good training in fire arms and strengthen your doors, windows etc. There are several good books on this. Be armed at all times (all of you). Cover the house and all, with CCTV units and place a recorder on your phone. Store all information with your lawyer, a remote video/audio feed tho his computer would be nice, so they would be covered by lawyer/client confidently and can not be seized.
KYA

Ricky B
June 16, 2009, 11:27 AM
I am little concerned that you not get into the frame of mind that these idiots are planning a home invasion and act as though that were the only explanation for their behavior. They may be planning on more criminal mischief or it may simply be harassment. In fact, they may have been scared off by the camera and being pulled over. So while I don't disagree with preparing for worse behavior, it's important not to slant your thinking so you misjudge a situation.

The high-end camera and digital recording system was a brilliant first step. The fact that the police pulled them over and now have a record of the incident is also very good.

The ideal next step (from a protection viewpoint) would be to get a mature large dog that is well-trained (such as a German Shepard). Interviews with burglars in prison indicate that burglars fear a large dog more than a homeowner or the police, but for many that is impractical.

You say you have an alarm system, which is a good thing, but you should opt for central station monitoring if you don't have it. Also alarm systems have to be designed properly, not just for low cost, like ADT often does in residential installations. You should wire all accessible doors and windows. And you need to test the system periodically. I wouldn't use motion sensors inside while people are home, but they are great for when the home is empty.

You might even consider adding a couple of motion sensor zones outside the home which don't trigger the main sounding device or call the central station but simply trigger a beeping device (like the large trucks have when they back up). The outside motion sensors would have to be adjusted so that only large objects triggered them, not birds or cats or dogs, but that can be done.

It seems to me that if they come onto your property again and you have video proof, the police should be able to cite them for criminal trespass. Speak to the watch commander about that now and take any necessary steps to facilitate that.

pacerdude
June 16, 2009, 11:57 AM
There is a central monitoring station that is hooked up to a Digital Video Recorder, also we have it set up so that we can monitor it online as well. Last night, i kept an eye on the actual monitoring station, and my brother kept another eye on it from his room via his laptop. We are not trying to over react, if we had not seen that same car both before and after the people got out, and earlier in the day a silver truck that has also been seen, pulled in to our driveway and sat there not 15 minutes after we left our house.

45guy
June 16, 2009, 12:06 PM
The normal door or window is a very flimsy thang, normally just a 1x4 or 1x6 box held by a couple of shims and finishing nails, with 2 or 3 in of space on all sides, covered by molding. A good kick will drive it, frame, door and all, across the room.
You need to reinforce them.
Remove the facing, exposing the door frame and the house framing. There will be a gap, cut wood to fit this gap tightly top to bottom. Remove shims and fill gap, top to bottom, with wood, it should fit snug but not move frame. Using 1/4 x 10 or 12 in flush head lag screws attach frame to house frame. Use at least 6 per side. run through frame, filler and in to house frame the full length. Drive the screw head flush so door will not jam.
Work one side at a time and use care not to disturb door frame. Do both sides.
Replace door with sold door with small window ( to small to reach through ) and a good dead bolt. Attach hinges with the largest and longest screws you can. Place a 10 or 12 in long pipe behind the dead bolt striker plate so the bolt enters pipe and is held by pipe, not plate.
Use the same approach on windows except ( because of glass ) you may have to use bars or replace with casement. If casement, drill almost through the latch and ears and cut a nail to fit and lock he latch, use a magnet to withdraw nail.
Use steel casement with small pains that they can not fit through.

KingEdward
June 16, 2009, 12:31 PM
since you can't sit on the front porch 24/7 with a glass of lemonade and a 12 gauge, all the other advice here is good.

Dog(s), lights, neighbors watching each others back, communication with police, documentation, training with firearms and self defense training, etc.

If they keep coming and seem to get bolder, you will just have to stay IN the house. Don't go outside and for now, the ladies need not be outside any more than necessary. NEVER go outside in the middle of the night as you will not know how many there are, and what they have or plan to do. Protect from within.

If they break in, you (and others) have to be prepared to stop the threat.

If this persists but does not necessarily escalate (violence or breaking in) I would keep documenting and I would probably hire a private investigator for a week or so to do survelliance work and find out who these people are and
what their patterns and tactics are. Include any evidence (photos / video) of them committing other trespasses and/or criminal activity from an investigator's report and get that to police also.

Slopemeno
June 16, 2009, 12:35 PM
Consider getting low or no-cost legal advice.

I'd go to the city manager as well. HE's the one who holds the purse strings. Also, have you considered starting a neighborhood watch? You have some momentum right now- how about inviting all your neighbors over to watch the video together?

Say what you want about California, but at a Neighborhood Watch meeting, the cops are THERE. Let them explain what the video shows....

Also, start documenting everything now in a notebook- have a timeline where you note "Called the cops on 6-12, spoke to...told them...at 10:00 AM.

Tombstonejim
June 16, 2009, 12:38 PM
Take every thing that you have said that you have done on here.

Write it down in the order that things happened.

Go in person to the police office sheriff office which ever jurisdiction you are in and file a written complaint at that office.

The officers that respond to your calls do not have the time nor do they want to get involved in long reports. They probably have to write them on their own time.

You will get a better response that way and get a copy of your filed report.

If you can print pictures off of your security tapes print those also and take with you.

cracked91
June 16, 2009, 01:15 PM
My family has always dealt with problems like this in a different way than this. .. it was more along the lines of
since you can't sit on the front porch 24/7 with a glass of lemonade and a 12 gauge


But the advice is good, maybe get another more discreet camera facing at an angle that gives it a view of your primary camera, because Im thinking their next move is going to be tampering camera, since they know its there, and if you can get them damaging your property on surveillance your gold

bdturner
June 16, 2009, 01:16 PM
Good advise from everyone.
When I was the police chief of a small town in eastern NC I asked for more officers to help patrol problem neighborhoods (gangs and drugs 24/7) and was turned down. My budget was tight and my resources were very low. So I bought four fake video cameras with led lights and three signs and had the town workers install them with a bucket truck pointed at the street. Overnight the complaints of drug sales went down to zero. Folks from out of town shopped elsewhere. Total spent less than $200. Sometimes you have to think outside the box.

bdturner
June 16, 2009, 01:19 PM
If you need some spy cameras they can be had pretty cheap these days and are so small that they will never be noticed.

pacerdude
June 16, 2009, 01:22 PM
Cracked 91 we currently have several cameras running and will be adding more in the next week. Thanks guys.

Tucker 1371
June 16, 2009, 02:02 PM
I guess they haven't shown up since noticing the cameras? If they do show up again then they're either extremely dumb (which wouldn't be surprising) or they have a plan for getting around your cameras.

My grandparents were broken into a few years back and the thugs had slashed all the vehicles tires and cut the phone lines; I think they were obviously planning on meeting the owners and not wanting them to call for help. They didn't need it though because my grandfather met the thugs at the door with a .44mag and they hightailed it on outta there without anyone firing a shot.

Just keep an eye out and have a plan if the cameras aren't enough of a deterrent. Stay in contact with LE too, hopefully they can put these guys away for something like harassment before they become a bigger problem.

EdSky
June 16, 2009, 02:22 PM
What kind of camera system did you get, and where? I saw some advertised recently in a CompUSA flyer and they looked pretty nice.

The more you can document the better, and don't be afraid to call the police. Especially if your mom does. Also, if you can take the video to them, since the Sheriff didn't want to watch it, it might help.

Believe me, if something happens to any of you (and we hope nothing does) and word gets out, your family will own the town. All the more reason for the police to help you now.

pacerdude
June 16, 2009, 02:24 PM
Actually GSUeagle after noticing the camera, they drove back by a few times but didnt get out of the car anymore.

Tucker 1371
June 16, 2009, 02:31 PM
Being the semi paranoid person that I am I would guess that they're trying either to intimidate you, figure out a way around the cameras, or figure out who's home when. Any way you cut it it's not good. Do the cameras catch cars driving past the house? If so you could probably show the video to police and so they could see that they're the same people that were snooping around your mom's place. I honestly have no idea how the police operate but maybe you could have a squad car parked up the road so that next time they drive by they can tail them on their way out and scare them a little.

Sixer
June 16, 2009, 03:04 PM
It's sooooo easy to sit here at a keyboard and tell you the "proper" behavior to display when in this situation. It's a WHOLE different story when you actually have thugs in your driveway breaking into your vehicle and damaging your property.... Let alone the peace of mind they are taking from you and your mother.

If it was ME (this is not a suggestion) I would not be hiding in my house while someone is on MY property stealing or vandalising. That is PLENTY enough reason for me to confront the threat and deal with it. I'm not saying I'm going to go out "guns blazin" but I will be well armed. You can only stand by and watch this happen for so long. The cops aren't doing their job and you evidently cannot count on them to resolve your problem.

You can't go looking for trouble, but if trouble comes looking for you... then you might as well be prepared. I live in MO where the Castle Doctrine applys to your property as well as your home. My house, my property, my family = fair game.

That's not chest beating or blood thirsty... the last thing I would want to do is take anothers life... that's just how it is, nothing illegal or outrageous about it.

pacerdude
June 16, 2009, 03:11 PM
Sixer, thank you for your support. I could feel the adrenaline pumping when they were wandering around my front yard taking more pictures of our cars and snooping around. It sucked to just sit in my house and watch them. We had the police on the line and they said they were coming. But an hour later we called to find out where they were and the dispatcher told us the officer decided not to come and speak with us. Its a terrible feeling to watch them on our property and be too afraid of the consequences to do anything about it. I heard though that here in Georgia our "castle doctrine" extends to cover our whole property.

BlindMansBluff
June 16, 2009, 03:38 PM
1. this sounds extremely personal and we aren't getting the full story
2. we can't advise you unless we get the full story
3. where I come from, a couple trips around the house to case the house and then it was hit, weather it was running inside kicking in doors with bats swinging, guns shooting, or knives stabbing.
4. There is more to this, I am not sure what it is but remember you can't shoot until they violate you directly, you can't kill over your car getting pics taken but, as soon as they kick your door or break a front window don't hessitate one sec to start laying them down, all COM shots and lay them all down.

they are cowards and the whole parading around your house knowing you are inside is a scare tactic for them.

but you have to tell us the whole story for the best advice.

comn-cents
June 16, 2009, 03:39 PM
How about a BIG DOG? That may offer a bit of comfort to your MOM.
I have a few hundred pounds of dog in my house that are loud. When I'm away I know that it would almost be imposable to get into my house without stirring them up and warning my wife someone is here.

I have motion lights (someone mentioned) all around my house and I love them. I also just installed a light that was less than 30 bucks at home depot. It goes on at dust and off at sunrise and it lights up a 30 sq foot area very nicely. It's not overly bright either more like a street light.

Shotgun is a great Idea the sound of that when they are on your property just says GO AWAY.

Good luck, that's a tough situation. My sister had a stocker once (old boyfriend) that use to come to the house. We had a security screen on the front door, I stood behind that and asked him never to come back. He couldn't see me and I just took a deep breath and tried to sound as calm as I could. He never came back. I really wanted to steep out with my Louisville and show him a good old time. Good Luck again.

pacerdude
June 16, 2009, 03:43 PM
Unless they come in my house and threaten my family, more than they already have, I wont even draw my pistol. I just wish I could make them leave my family alone.

KingEdward
June 16, 2009, 04:11 PM
earlier, I posted to not go outside in the middle of the night (3am) but stay in and observe / defend Simply because you are not oriented well and who knows who or how many are out there.

But I'll add....

If it's 10pm and these clowns are on your property, taking pictures, messing around, loitering, you have every right to be present and turn a high powered spotlight on them and say get lost.

Being armed or not is up to you and I would be via CCW. My first priority would be to spot light their vehicle(s) and then them personally.

My second priority would be to have someone in the house watching and calling police to come and remove the trespassers.

Lastly, I would not turn my back to them but I would stand my ground on my property. You have that right and they need to leave.

As for them confronting or turning on you, it's all on camera and just make sure you do not threaten them but you can defend yourself if they force the issue.

Maybe they think a couple of defensless women only live there.

OuTcAsT
June 16, 2009, 04:34 PM
Your decision to not go outside and confront an unknown number of thugs is very wise.

While the "castle laws" are in full force in GA, and do extend onto your property, you are still dealing with a great number of variables, for instance, is there more than one bad guy ? you have no way to tell. Is he/they armed? again no way to know, If you are injured or killed, is there another weapon for your family to protect themselves?

Most rational thinking individuals will err on the side of caution and defend from inside their home, where you have a better chance of controlling the unknown.

Does this mean that you have to be a prisoner in your own home? No, but you do need to make sure you are situationally aware of your surroundings, and teach your family to do the same. If confronted outside, that is a different matter. You must be prepared to defend yourself.

Good Luck, and stay alert.

Sixer
June 16, 2009, 04:43 PM
Pacerdude, I had a somewhat similar situation happen at my parents house not too long ago. Long story short, some punk ass meth head thought my 19yr old brother was talking to his girlfriend. The guy showed up in broad daylight (nice, quiet neighborhood) and played home-run derby on his Jeep. This kid (a 24yr old) also left a threatening message on my brother's phone while in my parent's driveway.

Luckily my parents were not home and my brother was fast asleep when all of this was happening. The only thing damaged was the Jeep ($3000 in glass and body work) but the thought of this guy coming back for more was no good.

I found out about the whole incident about an hour after it happened. I was at my parents within minutes. I was seeing red, shaking, furious! My brother can hold his own.... but this dude crossed a serious line by coming to my parents house with a baseball bat. It took about 1/2 hour to calm myself down.

An hour later I had this guys phone #, home address, and name. I was no longer in "revenge" mode so I called and left a very short message for him to call me, which he did. I was calm but deliberate on the phone. This guy knew he got himself in too deep and was almost begging me not to "tell the cops". He offered to pay but nobody wanted his dirty money. I told him I wasnt going to come after him or anything like that. I just made sure he knew that coming back to my parent's home would be a very big mistake... I don't play with ball bats. We ended up pressing charges and found out this guy was already on probation and will likely be looking at jail time.

Anyway, that's my story, sorry to rant but I can relate to the overwhelming feeling of anger that you experience when you feel your family's safety has been compromised. Property in itself is not a big deal, you and your family's well being IS. Just think of how you want the situation to end and try to reach that conclusion without doing anything dumb :)

skydiver3346
June 16, 2009, 04:49 PM
Sorry to hear about your troubles Pacerdude. I would show the authorities your video and see if they can set up a stake out of your Mom's house and/or yours. Doubt they will spend the $$ but its worth a try. Whatever you do, wait for the bad guys to make the first move, (don't let them goad you into something you might regret later) and then with your prior video evidence and also having reported these incidences to police you should be justified in responding to a real threat.
Best of luck to you. Sorry to hear about dirt bags like that putting your Mom in such fear. That kind B.S. really ticks me off.........

only1najeep
June 16, 2009, 05:49 PM
I had a situation last summer with someone vandalizing my vehicle on and off for 2 weeks. I even parked my car in my parents back yard and it was still vandalized. It took a fake camera and leaving my parents dog outside to get it to stop. I never found out who it was or why they were doing it, but I can say I understand somewhat how you feel, and I hope everything turns out okay.

dabigguns357
June 16, 2009, 05:54 PM
I had something similar happen to me when we lived down in Huntington WV.My wife and i had both our cars broken into no less than 7 times within 4 months.They even vandalized 12 other cars along with ours,slashing tires knocking dents into cars also knocked out headlights and stole stuff off porches.Anyway we all called the police and nothing was done so i installed night vision camera's all around and started recording.Sure enough i caught them and called the police several times with no effect at all.

I eventually stopped calling the police and contacted the local news who then started doing stories and airing the video.The cops started coming around more and the street urchins(11 total) were arrested.

Keep records and video and send them in to your local news,hopfully they will air them and the situation will get handled.

pacerdude
June 16, 2009, 08:11 PM
Well we just got home with my moms brand new shotgun a Mossberg 500 series. Its a 20 gauge shotgun and we bought it quick this evening at Walmart. I have a feeling they will be back.

OuTcAsT
June 16, 2009, 08:34 PM
Then relax, take a deep breath, and work with your entire family to formulate a plan for the possibility.

Find a safe place for everyone, make sure they know what you intend to do, and practice your response a few times.

A corporate plan, and a bit of common sense can go a long way to helping you get a good nights sleep. Possibly monitor in shifts, and if things get ugly outside, get everyone to a safe location, preferably a single room, arm yourselves, call 911, and keep your cool.

1) Tell 911 you have an intruder that is trying to enter your home. (do not lie, only tell them if they are trying to enter)

2) Tell them you are armed.

3) Tell them your exact location inside the house,( North west corner, Southeast corner etc.) and how many you are.

4)Someone stay on the line until police arrive and you are satisfied it is safe.

5) If you believe they have entered your home do not come out of your safe room until the 911 operator confirms that police have cleared your home.

6) When you are satisfied that the police are indeed the only people outside your door, secure your weapons before you go out, and make sure the 911 operator communicates this to the officers.

This is the best advice I can give, Godspeed my friend.

OttoJara
June 16, 2009, 08:35 PM
Good luck Pacerdude, I feel for ya man, we have some little thugs in my nieghborhood too but nothing that bad. Do you have any friends that will hang with you for a couple nights and a place for your mom and sister to go to? I'm not saying to start something but if a couple of big guys come out of the house instead of your mom, they might think again about coming back. Good Luck tonight, I'll say a prayer for you and your family to be left alone.

OuTcAsT
June 16, 2009, 08:40 PM
I'll say a prayer for you and your family to be left alone.

Same Here.

ImprobableJoe
June 16, 2009, 08:47 PM
The whole thing sounds completely unreal... I could give you better advice for zombie invasions or nuclear war, because both scenarios seem more likely.

I'm not saying that you or your mom are lying, but the alternative is that these guys are mentally ill, and there's no way to anticipate the behavior of psychos.

OuTcAsT
June 16, 2009, 08:55 PM
The whole thing sounds completely unreal... I could give you better advice for zombie invasions or nuclear war, because both scenarios seem more likely.

I'm not saying that you or your mom are lying, but the alternative is that these guys are mentally ill, and there's no way to anticipate the behavior of psychos


Thank you. We're all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view. :rolleyes:

Mike Irwin
June 16, 2009, 08:57 PM
How does your camera system store what has been recorded?

It should, ideally, upload it to a secure website, NOT just record it to a tape or disk in the house. That could be stolen and destroyed in a break in, and then you have nothing.

bdturner
June 16, 2009, 08:58 PM
I feel truly blessed to live so far off the road and in the back country that we don't have problems like this. It is hard to imagine living in fear of just parking your truck in the driveway. Pacerdude I hope everything works out for you. I wish I lived closer we could sit on the front steps and clean guns some night:)

pacerdude
June 16, 2009, 09:21 PM
Our camera system records everything to a Digital Video Recorder (kind of like a Tivo), the video is also stored on the companies website. Guys, I also wish this was unreal and my mom was paranoid, but I saw these perps with my own eyes and they werent just lost...

tpareloader
June 16, 2009, 09:43 PM
Pacerdude I hope everything works out for you. I wish I lived closer we could sit on the front steps and clean guns some night

I agree.

VA9mm
June 16, 2009, 09:50 PM
Someone already suggested it, a big dog would be good if that's something you want to explore. I have 2 pittbulls and know the family will be there when I get back. Any large breed will do.

It's a shame that someone has to live in fear and nothing can be done except make note of it. Talk to your neighbors and tell them the situation, have them keep an eye out for you as well.

Hope your family is safe and everything works out.

Beentown71
June 16, 2009, 10:09 PM
I hope that everything works out for you and yours. Hopefully they get bored and decide that there are easier targets with the addition of the security cams. If all else fails... punji sticks and a moat:rolleyes:


Beentown

pacerdude
June 16, 2009, 10:45 PM
If the shotgun doesnt make the point, I might move on to the punji sticks and the moat. :D

djohn
June 16, 2009, 11:08 PM
Dogs are mans best friend and a great deterent. After my mom and dads house was broke into some yrs back,my brother gave them a half grown Doberman pincher that turned out to be a 90lb grizzly to unwelcomed quests.Dogs hear things we dont as humans and will let you know that something is up when your not even aware of it.I would a least consider at least a midsize dog.Good luck and hope the thugs dont return.

Sixer
June 17, 2009, 12:08 AM
Pacerdude, what's up with these guys anyway? Maybe I missed it... but are they just some punk teens, or in their 20's to 30's? How many are you dealing with? Do they look like street bred gang bangers or just your neighborhood troublemakers?

Maybe it doesn't matter either way... but it would help to know EXACTLY what type of people you could possibly confront before actually doing it. If it's just a group of neighborhood teenagers, then one rack of the Mossy should do the trick for good... Otherwise, a bit more caution may be needed before any kind of confrontation. Sometimes the older ones can be a bit more determined and more difficult to persuade.

BlindMansBluff
June 17, 2009, 01:56 AM
I'm still not conviced we have the entire story. I can't put my finger on it but there is something more we aren't being told.

OuTcAsT
June 17, 2009, 08:53 AM
Pacerdude, Did you and your family make it through the night OK ?

Any more visits from the thugs ?

mp25ds4
June 17, 2009, 09:18 AM
put up a no tresspassing sign and tell them to leave if they are on your property.

Also try to make them think that you have gone away.... for instance park your car a good ways away from the house, they are more likely to make a move if they think you are gone, it sounds like they are going to try to break in eventually but this way at least you wont be in Athens when they do.

teach the 15 year old how to use and operate the shotgun as best you can, the same for your mom and at least make sure your sister knows how to shoot it

the cops probly wont be much help here they will just think these thugs are taking pictures of the house because they think its pretty

just like when some pedafile was waiting in his car watching my cousin go inside his house from where the school bus drops him off at least 3 times in a 2 week period then moved his car into the exact spot my cousin walks by every day to get to his house, my mom happend to be taking him home from school that day thank god, when we called the police they said it was most likely he was stealing wifi internet from houses,

Also there are these things you can buy now that will prevent people from kicking in your door better than a dead bolt lock, i forget what they are called but i think they attatch to your floor

Steviewonder1
June 17, 2009, 09:33 AM
If you reside in the City of Atlanta, I really feel for you with all of the layoffs and vacancies in the PD. Get to a range and practice with that shotgun.
Good Luck and Straight Shooting if you need to.

easyG
June 17, 2009, 09:50 AM
Anyway, it was surreal to watch them get out of their car and snoop around on the video. I was looking at them in person and never noticed that they actually got out of the car and took a picture. My mom is going to get a shotgun and practice on my grandpas land. I know confronting them at night with my gun drawn is a terrible idea, but watching them on my front yard casing the house and taking pictures really rubs me the wrong way. What else would you guys do?, we have an alarm system, video surveillance and motion sensing lights...

[deleted illegal advice]

TailGator
June 17, 2009, 10:08 AM
deleted illegal advice

I hope that was tongue in cheek. If not, it is just about the worst advice imaginable, placing the OP at risk of being charged with assault with a deadly weapon, conspiracy, and God only knows what else.

pacerdude
June 17, 2009, 11:19 AM
I actually live outside Atlanta, in Rockdale right across from the DeKalb county line. When I saw them they appeared to only be in their teens maybe 18 or 20.... And this is all of the story that I know... I have told you guys everything about what led to the break in of the car, and everything after that. We made it through the night fine :). Thanks for the concern and the advice.

pacerdude
June 17, 2009, 11:36 AM
They drove by once in the middle of the night and that was all they did. I think the shotgun worked. One of our friends came over last night and he showed my mom how to load, unload, and cock the shotgun as well as how to work the safety. My brother is well trained with guns and knows how to handle the shotgun. My sister is all of 5'6" and 90 pounds and the shotgun would knock her flat on the ground.

P.S. He taught my mom how to do this inside the house and then they practiced on the porch.

45guy
June 17, 2009, 11:41 AM
Retain a lawyer. Fallow his advise.

The police have been less than enthusiastic in this and if any thing "goes down" they may try to lay it on you to cover there a---s.
Keep good records and give your lawyer all copies, keep up dated. Retain only the copies he recommends. Have all video/audio down loaded to his office, this way attorney client privilege applies. Other wise the police WILL seize and you can have a hard time recovering a complete copy. This way you have control and can disperse as you need.
It keeps every one honest.

djohn
June 17, 2009, 12:15 PM
Agree with tailGator,I also hope that was tongue and cheek because thats the kinda talk as lawbidding gun owners we do not need.That's got to be the worst advice of a thread yet.Congrats for just giving the Anti's more ammunition to feed on.:rolleyes:

Donn_N
June 17, 2009, 01:36 PM
My sister is all of 5'6" and 90 pounds and the shotgun would knock her flat on the ground.


Its a 20 gauge shotgun, not a howitzer. If she is taught to fire it properly it won't knock her flat on the ground.

pacerdude
June 17, 2009, 01:41 PM
Donn N, I hadnt considered that, I have a pacemaker and will not be using the shotgun as I am not allowed to use a gun with so much kick.

jfrey123
June 17, 2009, 02:38 PM
If they keep coming around, even with the camera, they've got a bad plan for you. I can't admit here that I'd be able to control myself and watch them take photos and walk around on closed circuit tv.

One thought might be a PA system. Some kind of outdoor speaker you can talk through from the inside. "Hey mother f'ers, I see you in my drive way, I'm calling the cops... Again!"



I also agree that a second camera may be necessary, somewhere pointed that it can see the first camera. My suspicion too is that they're coming back and going to trash your surveillance as step #1.

MLeake
June 17, 2009, 06:04 PM
Pacerdude, FWIW I grew up in semirural Maine. In one friend's family (they had a farm), his little brother received a 16ga for his 5th birthday. He had to learn to shoot it with it lying across a fence rail.

I'm pretty sure your sister can learn to handle a 20ga, especially if you find some lower recoil loads.

Ricky B
June 17, 2009, 08:49 PM
That's got to be the worst advice of a thread yet.

You were too kind!

easyG
June 17, 2009, 09:55 PM
Quote:
That's got to be the worst advice of a thread yet.

You were too kind!

Don't knock it till you've tried it! ;)

Tucker 1371
June 17, 2009, 10:17 PM
One thing to keep in mind is to not let it get personal. These guys obviously already have and they have a bone to pick with your family. Just keep your wits about you and stay cool no matter what happens and don't let the "they're after my family I'm fighting mad" syndrome take over. Do exactly what needs to be done and nothing more (i.e. no pumping rounds into a BG that's already down).

Like I said before, work as much with the police as possible; Show them the video and try to get a squad car to tail them out and give 'em a scare next time they drive by your place.

Again, I might be letting my paranoid side show here but since they've already shown so much persistence I wouldn't put it past them to be trying to figure out where you or your mother are during the day. Just stay alert and if you have a permit then CCW.

Ricky B
June 17, 2009, 10:20 PM
Don't knock it till you've tried it!

Kindness or drive-by shootings?

easyG
June 17, 2009, 10:54 PM
deleted illegal advice

teeroux
June 17, 2009, 11:43 PM
I had a similar experiance as well as one of my brothers after I moved on out the nest.

Well in both instances the BGs stopped harrassing our momma but then broken jaws, missing teeth, and cracked skulls from being pistol wipped and struck with brass knuckles will do that.

Tucker 1371
June 17, 2009, 11:59 PM
deleted illegal advice

Effective maybe, efficient or legal? Doubt it. Doing what you posted earlier might work in a bar fight but in a use of force situation it will get you in a lot more hot water. The idea is to not be the party that escalates the situation easyG, if you respond with lethal force in GA you need to have a reasonable fear of imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury to himself or herself or to another and you are believed to have such if the person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcibly entering or had unlawfully and forcibly entered upon an occupied habitation and the person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry was occurring or had occurred.

It will be very hard to justify having you and a few of your friends blow the hell out of some folks sitting in your driveway or standing around in your yard unless they're visibly armed and even then the fact that you had friends help you shows a little too much premeditation IMO.

That's got to be the worst advice of a thread yet.

+1, now let's get back on topic.

samurai30047
June 18, 2009, 12:06 AM
Getting a lawyers advice is important and having the right kind of lawyer give it to you is the most important. The vast majority of lawyers are lefty libtards that will discourage any type of self defense. Check the laws yourself particularly the newer ones on protecting property. I have a lot of experience with confrontations and this sounds like a good time for one. These guys stop a car in front of your house, I would either go to a window facing the street or open the front door, shotgun across my chest. The window is nice because you have a wall(hopefully brick) as cover. They've been trespassing and doing a lot of harassing. It's your house. If they've already brazenly walked around your house and car with a camera after a smash and grab, they probably are going to up the ante eventually. You have to have the mindset that something bad can happen to your family. Call 911 and keep an open line. I might use a head set for hands free operation. You can always put the phone on a table or something.They approach you, you give loud repetetive verbal commands. Get back in the car, get out of here! You are trespassing, the cops are enroute!!" Remember, in court, a judge will WANT to see a clear cut case of self defense. If you have to shoot the shotgun tuck it under your arm pit on the opposite side of the pacemaker, or let fly from the hip. If you have neighbors across the street or close on either side you have to be accurate. No maybes. I'd maybe let them get within 15 ft unless they brandish weapons. Then the distance gets longer. Problem here is you don't have any training so the bad guys have a huge advantage.
I was enjoying a movie with my family in the living room about 5 years back. Out of the blue I see about 7-8 teen agers walking across my lawn, across my neighbors lawn into her back yard. It's 11:30 p.m. and she's a 40 year old single mom. I go out to my drive way and see they're using her back yard for a party place AND snooping around the garage. I yelled at them to get the hell out of there, this is a quiet neighborhood. They slowly did but then I thought what if one of this big goofs decides I should mind my own business. So yeah, I got my pistol from the house. And stood in my drive way as cars were driving off. No problems since.

Trooper Tyree
June 18, 2009, 12:10 AM
Getting your own gang together to deal with a threat.

It works most of the time.

Right. Gangs and vigilantism violence are so effective.

It's why urban areas are so tranquil and peaceful. All the gangs.

There's something queer about this thread I can't put my finger on. Also that other thread, the Attacked in a parking lot thread. Perhaps it's just that the posters are young and this shtlick is still an exciting event/adventure to them.

Lost Sheep
June 18, 2009, 01:55 AM
There has been a lot of good defensive advice offered, tactical and legal. The only thing I have to add to that would be to (if you have the money) hire a security consultant (in addition to the lawyer) to advise what measures would be most effective in making your house safe. None of us here on the forum have seen your house, so cannot advise in defensible space, perimieter protection, best placement of detection devices, etc. (Dog, multiple layers of cameras, off-site storage, safe room with cell phone and independent power etc.)

What really prompts my post is to suggest taking a proactive approach. Find out who these guys are. Get an injunction against them if you can (was suggested already) and then go a little further. Without becoming a stalker or violating their rights/privacy find out what you can about them. That may give a clue as to how to get them prosecuted (maybe not for the crimes against you, but at least for SOMETHING).

Knowing some of their history, you may also get a clue as to who else might wind up targeting you. The fact they took pictures of your house's exterior indicates a great deal of planning and they may, having already been identified by the police, turn the job of your home's invasion to other criminals whose faces you don't have on camera.

I feel for your predicament. It is unfair that you should have to spend your time, worry and money to make you and yours safe, but that is the situation. As long as you are faced with this unfairness, you might as well get out ahead of the events.

Is there a victims' rights advocate in your jurisdiction? They may be able to help get extra police effor, since your burglary and continued harrassment/stalking is ongoing and apparantly escalating. It seems pretty clear you are being actively targeted and the usual advice of "Make yourself a less inviting target and the criminals with be discouraged and look elsewhere" is definitely NOT applicable. You are not a victim of opportunity, but an active target and the odds of an escalation are pretty near 100%.

So, point by point, my advice:

Contact (if there is one) the victims' services office with jurisdiction in your area. See what assistance/advice they have.

Consult a professional security specialist for how to harden your house. The same security specialist might have advice on what to do with the information of the next step.

Find out who these guys are and the people they run with and everything you (legally) can about them. This may start with an internet search of court records (usually public records, but with juveniles usually protected, but there are sometimes legal ways around that)

Get an injunction against them if you can. Or, find out what their beef is and if there is more to the story than you know, perhaps a truce could be negotiated. Or, at least, the knowledge might make you better armed against them in their criminal trials.

Consult a lawyer with two questions: 1) What are our rights with regard to self-defense? 2) Can I go after these guys with criminal charges or civil charges (in court) with or without the police? If you can find a lawyer in private practice who used to be a prosecutor, so much the better (my opinion). You want to find an attorney equally adept at 1) defending you if you should have to explain use of force and 2) figuring out how to gather evidence to prosecute or sue these criminals.

And a VERY BIG caution. These guys are not just burglarizing for fun and profit. You have been targeted and are now being actively hunted. Let that fact inform your decisions. I don't want to scare you, but if they are determined enough arson is not out of the question, nor is a hit on any of you in some other location.

Good luck. and prayers be with you. God helps those who help themselves, and remember, God is observing how you do that.

Lost Sheep

With regard to EarlG's advice. Forum rules forbid a specific response, but I gotta respond. I know the impulse is to gear up and go hunting, or as you suggest, set up with an overwhelming response team. Gratifying. But the fact is that private armies (or even just a fire team or two) is beyong the reach of most of us. Vigilantism 1) is not Legal 2) is too easy to make a mistake and get the wrong people killed 3) seldom the end of the matter (at least not satisfactorily).

pax
June 18, 2009, 08:24 AM
Moderator Note

I just went through and deleted some illegal advice - some of it visible to members, some not. Going to go ahead and leave the thread open, but any further illegal advice on this thread WILL result in a ban of the offending member(s). This includes chest-thumbing, bloodlust, and all related behaviors.

On TFL, we will discuss what can be done within the law and within an ethical framework, and we will do so in a calm and chest-thumping free environment. There are lots of other places around the 'net where you can advocate for irresponsible firearms use, but TFL is not one of them.

pax

pacerdude
June 18, 2009, 09:25 AM
Thank you Pax, and do you have any advice? They came back last night, three or four of them in the car and one person was brazen enough to come into the yard, and then run through to the back yard. We went out to the front porch and called the police. By the time the police came everyone was gone. But we have the video of the SUV and the person in our yard. I dont want any of this to come to violence, I just want them to leave my family alone. Thanks in advance for the great advice.

yourang?
June 18, 2009, 09:33 AM
even worse than proposing illegal behavior, it isnt a long shot
that some of these guys might even be reading this board and
enjoying the buzz they are creating

you never know

if that is the case, you could be telegraphing every move
you are doing, which might actually work to your disadvantage

gives you pause for thought, although there has been much good
advice and support offered throughout......

good luck!

TailGator
June 18, 2009, 10:36 AM
This may be stupidly simple, but if you put up legal "No Trespassing" signs, and then they do the stuff they have been doing, don't the authorities have a charge against them?

Sixer
June 18, 2009, 10:53 AM
even worse than proposing illegal behavior, it isnt a long shot
that some of these guys might even be reading this board and
enjoying the buzz they are creating

Ummm, yeah... I'm gonna have to say that's a longshot.

In the meantime, I'd be sitting on my front porch with a shotgun and a smile:D

raftman
June 18, 2009, 10:56 AM
this may be stupidly simple, but if you put up legal "No Trespassing" signs, and then they do the stuff they have been doing, don't the authorities have a charge against them?

Isn't trespassing always trespassing, whether a sign is present or not?

OttoJara
June 18, 2009, 08:20 PM
Hey Pacerdude, I know you said you have multible cameras, do you have enough to cover the whole outside of your house? Do you have any pointed on the entry points of your house on the inside? Some of these could be very helpful if they do enter you house in any way. Again, prayers are coming to you and your family, I do hope to God that this ends soon. Our military are scattered all over the world fighting terrorists, why can the police help you with these terrorists? Good Luck. Otto

djohn
June 18, 2009, 10:15 PM
To my understanding the Police are in no way obligated to protect us.They cant do anything until the law is broken by the perps and have proof or they are caught red handed.I suggest do your own private eye work thats pefectly legal,sit in your car near by watching and trying to Get a license tag number,discription get pictures maybe even email them to the police.Make a a lot of noise until some one listens but just keep it legal.If you know or find out who is harasing your family you can file a restraining order.It may or may not help but at least breaking a protective order is grounds for a immediate arrest.

Beentown71
June 18, 2009, 10:31 PM
If you know or find out who is harasing your family you can file a restraining order.It may or may not help but at least breaking a protective order is grounds for a immediate arrest.

More great ideas. I believe you said before that you had the tags of a vehicle on tape. Get that number and take it to the police and file the restraining order. CYA as much as possible.

Beentown

pacerdude
June 18, 2009, 10:39 PM
Thanks again for everything fellas. Our whole house is covered by the cameras, but the Sherrifs Department still wont look at our videos to see the people and their vehicles. Maybe last night was it and we wont see any more of them. God bless you all.

Lost Sheep
June 19, 2009, 01:06 AM
Thanks again for everything fellas. Our whole house is covered by the cameras, but the Sherrifs Department still wont look at our videos to see the people and their vehicles. Maybe last night was it and we wont see any more of them. God bless you all.
As much as we can hope these guys are done, knowing how much time they have invested in you and your family, I doubt if this situation is going to go away by itself. I opine that they have an agenda, if not a vendetta. Try to find out what it is, if you can.

I don't know what it would take to make the Sherrif's office take a more active interest.

Does your local government have a community outreach program that encourages things like Neighborhood Watch? is there an Ombudsman's Office? Maybe a Civilian Liason in the Sherrif's Department? Is there a way you can get the identities of these guys and file charges directly with the prosecutor's office?

I am not a big fan of appeasement, but if these guys do have something they are after, if you find out what that is, you may be able to either give it to them or completely destroy their ability to get it. Either way, the incentive to get it by going through your family is reduced.

It would be most satisfying to see them get their reward in jail, but sometimes peace and justice are not simultaneously available.

Again, good luck.

Lost Sheep

ttman
June 20, 2009, 09:18 PM
No Trespassing only works when the perp has been ID'ed by a witness (while trespassing) & given a warning/citation by the Police. then further trespassing, witnessed, will be dealt with by PD.

how do I know? a teenage perp got caught in my vacant for sale house (he broke in) by my real estate agent in GA. a No Trespassing sign does NOTHING.

doc540
June 22, 2009, 02:50 PM
1. Do NOT discuss such matters on a public forum.

2-10 don't matter now

SAIGAFISH
June 22, 2009, 03:04 PM
I suggest you and some friends hideout across the street and the
the next time they show pile out and ask them what @#@@$%blank
they are doing

bababooey32
June 24, 2009, 10:00 AM
Pacerduded...can we assume the interaction with these humps has slowed/stopped? We haven't heard from you on this in a week, so I assume they have moved on?

ZeSpectre
June 24, 2009, 10:25 AM
Just brainstorming because you've been given a lot of good advice.

I suppose you could also dust a few areas with something like this UV "tracing powder". http://www.staclean.com/Trace-it-Powder.html

If the cops then pulled the suspects over it would provide quick proof that they'd been on your property.

Ze

pacerdude
June 24, 2009, 11:22 AM
Thanks for all the help guys, as of today everything has slowed down and no body has come around for a while. I will let you guys know if anything changes. Thanks again.