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View Full Version : Armed Citizen: Something tells me we're going to see more of this.


Chris2121
June 3, 2009, 03:39 AM
http://wcbstv.com/watercooler/bizarre.deli.robbery.2.1028715.html

The story had a great outcome, but unfortunately, this is a perfect example of what I think will start happening en masse thanks to this economic downturn. I really like this story, because it couldn't illustrate better how I feel about guns: be ready to use it (I would have had it loaded), but avoid pulling the trigger at all costs.

omkhan
June 3, 2009, 06:07 AM
Nice outcome, but personally I think its stupid to point an empty weapon towards a BG in such circumstances. Glad that no one got hurt.

TDR911
June 3, 2009, 06:31 AM
Unfortunatly the trend is that petty crime as well as more serious crimes will likely go up in this country as the economy tightens.
I suggest anyone who has purchased a weapon to get as much experience at the range, start out with some simple training on self awareness and self defense. And keep up with at least some form training once a year or more.

skydiver3346
June 3, 2009, 07:31 AM
Point an unloaded gun at someone? That is the quickest way I can think of to get into big time trouble if the bad guy wants to call you out. He may end up shooting you and others around you, etc. Drawing your gun is one thing. Actually pointing it at someone is another (and if you point it at someone, it had better be loaded). When and if you ever have to actually do that, you had better be ready to shoot it....

THEZACHARIAS
June 3, 2009, 07:43 AM
A gun is, at its core, a tool for causing injury and death to whatever is on its recieving end. If you dont have ammo, your tool doesnt work, and theres no point using it. I could understand if it was your last or only option, but until all other avenues have been exhausted, theres likely a better way to go.

That being said, I am impressed that the guy pulled it off. If nothing else, itll be a lesson to him (with huge flashing lights) to always keep his shotgun locked and loaded.

BlindMansBluff
June 3, 2009, 07:59 AM
You people are unbelievable. this is a beautifl story and the op was trying to point that out. but you paranoid wanna b milisha troopers have to shoot the story down, with out taking in the facts.

1. the [] robber had a bat, what he going to do, shoot me with splinters?
2. you can probably tell from the robber's dameener (sp?) that he really wasn't a hardened criminal.
3. please can some one send all these Barny Fifes to another threads because its obvious they don't belong here.

Ok off soap box now, but [] dude why does everything have to be so [] "Tough Guy" with you all. No wonder the Gun Owners and the NRA have a bad name, because look at you guys. always have to find a killer point of view (and rabbits and squirrels don't count) even when there is an act of kindness.

Double Naught Spy
June 3, 2009, 08:13 AM
A gun is, at its core, a tool for causing injury and death to whatever is on its recieving end.

No. A gun is simply a means by which a projectile(s) can be launched in a controlled manner via combusting expanding gasses. Whether or not it is used to cause death or injury is just a type of application for which it may be used.



1. the damn robber had a bat, what he going to do, shoot me with splinters?
No, but he could beat you to death with it.

What is up with all the cussing?

THEZACHARIAS
June 3, 2009, 08:18 AM
Guns where built for killing things. That was the purpose and the application for their initial design, just like arrows and spears before them.

Target shooting is a relatively recent concept compared to thousands of years of hunting and warfare.

Lee Lapin
June 3, 2009, 08:20 AM
be ready to use it (I would have had it loaded), but avoid pulling the trigger at all costs.

At all costs? No, sorry, not me. If possible I would ADEE, but if not... that's why I carry a gun, as the last resort. And I agree, any amount of cash I have in my pocket is a small price to pay to avoid having to shoot someone. But some thugs are not content with robbery, they want mayhem or murder too. That part I won't go along with.

lpl

pax
June 3, 2009, 08:53 AM
What you choose to do with a surrendered attacker is between you & your conscience. It really is a beautiful story with -- I think -- a happy ending.

I agree with other posters in this thread that the outcome could & perhaps should have been reached more safely by using a loaded gun rather than an unloaded one. If the robber hadn't immediately surrendered, the shop owner would have been in an uncomfortable and dangerous position indeed.

Pointing a gun at someone is guaranteed to frighten them, whether the gun is loaded or not. Unfortunately, there's no way to tell, in advance, what the other person will do in response to that fear.

Oh, one more thing, this one with the moderator hat on. We can discuss this without insulting those who disagree with us. Please do so.

pax

David Armstrong
June 3, 2009, 09:04 AM
If a bluff works it is as good as the real thing. In this case the bluff worked, and that is a pretty good risk I think. Many would be surprised at the number of robberies that are done with broken, empty, or toy guns, and the number of defensive uses that involve empty guns.

KingEdward
June 3, 2009, 09:07 AM
The thief was successful and got free money and food.

His MO was to put on sobbing act when the shotgun was introduced.

A complaint should have been filed regardless.

Glad there were no injuries.

Dragon55
June 3, 2009, 09:13 AM
Mr Sohail's compassion is commendable ... unfortunately he is now down as an 'easy mark' for others who are 'down on their luck'.

djohn
June 3, 2009, 09:27 AM
Wow that was a heart felt story indeed and a happy ending, but I have to agree with the empty gun could have turned out bad.This is a good example for not shooting first asking questions latter,thats if the gun is loaded.:p


This robber was very lucky he didn't try to rob a different store owner with a loaded gun,it may have been his last robbery attempt.

Brit
June 3, 2009, 10:28 AM
Well one thing is for sure, the hooded Gent saw his life flash before his eyes right at the moment he looked down that barrel.

I know of people who changed how they lived their lives for less graphic reasons! Let's just hope that happens in this case.

stephen426
June 3, 2009, 10:37 AM
It certainly was a suprise ending. Most shop owners would have either shot him, held him for police, or at least told him to get the bleep out of the store. I hope his compassion does not get him in trouble in the future.

I would not have told the robber that the gun was unloaded. If the robber was really bad, he could spread the word and the store owner would get robbed for sure.

BlindMansBluff, I know the idea of this post was to show a store owner's compassion, but don't be fooled for a minute that a bat is not a deadly weapon. What if the robber's sob story was just a ploy? Most people would be knocked unconscious by a single blow to the head. Multiple blows would lead to serious head injury and possibly death.

I am really starting to see how difficult things are becoming out there. I am in the fast food restaurant biz and we are tons of people asking for applications. My recent hires tell me that they have been looking for a long time and that they have been applying at many places. Fast food jobs are normally pretty easy to come by due to the low starting pay and high turnover. Even if things got really bad, I don't know if I could turn to crime. I guess when you are desperate and you have kids to feed, you do what you can. I'm sure most shelters fill up really quickly and I'm not even sure how many people they can feed any more. Since times are so tough, charitable contributions have plummetted.

I'll have to agree that this kind of thing (people being "forced" to rob stores to survive) is going to be more common. I will still meet deadly force with deadly force, but if all aggression stops, I will certainly not shoot. My gun will be loaded though. All in all, a good ending for the bad guy and a good deed by the shop owner.

Glenn E. Meyer
June 3, 2009, 10:43 AM
I actually saw a gentleman wanting to buy a pump shotgun and blanks to scare bad guys at Cabela's. The clerk suggested some rubber buckshot to be less than lethal.

sakeneko
June 3, 2009, 11:34 AM
I read this story yesterday evening. :-)

I hope the shop owner keeps his shotgun loaded in the future; *that* could have led to a tragedy if the bad guy had been more of a bad guy. But I really like the shop owner's compassion on the bad guy after he backed down, and his willingness to help him out. Owners of small convenience stores are not rich; they often operate at the ragged edge of profitability. His generosity was all the more impressive given that it cost him money and supplies he probably needed for himself.

Unlike many Americans, I know and have been around a fair number of Muslims. I've met Muslims like this before, and they're the salt of the earth, just like Christians, Jews, and non-religious people who don't walk past when they see somebody in pain or in need. Wish we had more people like this out there.

hogdogs
June 3, 2009, 11:54 AM
I would have been glad to show compassion being sure he got free food and shelter down at county!
Give a bum $40 and he will eat, drink or do drugs for a day...
Teach him to work and he can feed his family for a lifetime...
Tuff enuff to rob... Tuff enuff to work...
Brent

djohn
June 3, 2009, 12:29 PM
Sometimes people ask for spare change,I had this just happen recently as just about to enter a little store when a man approached and asked If I could spare some change and that he was really hungry.I was thinking yea right probably for drugs.So I offered the man to come in the store and I will buy you whatever sandwich you want.


He couldn't get through the door fast enough and I bought him a philly cheese steak sub by the way there really yummy:D The store gave him a free soda and some snacks free.


When a few regulars that hang out there some off duty LEO incuded figured out what was going on, that a few gave the man a couple of bucks as well.I never heard a man say thank you so much.


What a Great feeling to help and If I can I will. IMO just small little things can help someone in desperate need to survive another day and possiable prevent a crime, at least for that day.

Hank D.
June 3, 2009, 12:34 PM
That guy In the store in Long Island just painted a giant bullseye on his head, Don't get me wrong, I'm glad everything turned out well, but that guy wanter the money and not the milk and bread and I bet his next stop will be the neighborhood crack house, This guys biggest mistake Is telling everyone that the shotgun was not loaded, he should have kept that little thing to himself!!! I know that it will come back to haunt him big time. I wish him well.
I hear all the people out there that hate guns, It's not the gun, a gun is a tool just as a hammer can be a deadly weapon, and I well know the can of worms I just opened. It isen't what you have it's the way how you use It that counts, the deadelyest weapon that we have at our disposel is the auto, car, truck or bus. Just how many people are killed on any giver hoiday weekend, the summer vacation season comming up and how many will be killed? Now the talk of the town is smaller cars, I just saw this little 4 seatter, and all it needs to round this thing out Is 4-6 handles on the sides so that you can be burried In It and save on a cofin cost, I dont hear them talking about smaller trucks and or busses that use the very same roads as we drive on. There is always many sides to to everything, so we don't look at everything with the same eye. Right now how many people that you know can say that a car saved there life, now ask the same question about a gun, Just how many people that you know of were saved by a gun! Now play along with this can of worms, How many people do you know of that were killed by a gun, and with the same eye, how many people that you know of were killed by a car??? So when you look at this from another view, it tends to look a little differant. A gun is an inanimate object, just as a car In it's a machine, like a machinegun, It takes someone to run the machine, someone to drive the car, some one to shoot the gun, but once we hange this magic mistery to It, it seams to change Into something else!!! sorry for the spelling!
Semper FI to all, Hank D.

LuckyStrike
June 3, 2009, 12:38 PM
Great end to the story. If an empty gun is all you got against a guy with a bat who wants to beat you and take your money then its worth a shot.

I'm not bagging on this guy but I agree with most here that it would be very foolish to bet your life on a bluff...

have ammo.

Housezealot
June 3, 2009, 01:37 PM
That guy In the store in Long Island just painted a giant bullseye on his head,
Sad but true, I would never condem someone for finding a peaceful solution but the next guy with a bat, or knife or gun may not blink an eye at taking out a shopkeeper publicly know for being soft on a robber.
I hate to think that a persons generosity would be used against them, but we have all seen it a hundred times in one form or another:(

stephen426
June 3, 2009, 01:43 PM
I guess a lot has to do with the robber's demeanor after the store owner pulled a shotgun. While the typical reaction would be fear, maybe the robber expressed genuine remorse. Maybe he really DID have a family to feed rather than a drug habit that so many are quick to assume. I'm not saying what the robber did was right, but we weren't there to witness what really transpired.

I bet that if I put up a poll to see how many people have been affected by the economy, I bet almost everyone would have to vote yes. I'm sure that there are many on here that have lost their jobs as well. Many people have worked hard all of their lives and got messed up because their employer went under (Dodge, Chrysler, GM, etc...). They were pretty responsible with their money, but jobs are hard to come by and there are bills to pay and mouths to feed. Government assistance is trickleing in at best and many people are losing everything. I'm sure few people would admit it, but if things really went to heck, I'm sure there are some of us on here that would consider criminal activity. There was a movie with Jim Carey that was kind of like this situation... Only in real life, it isn't funny.

MLeake
June 3, 2009, 02:41 PM
Presentation of a firearm may immediately defuse the problem, but it may also escalate it. If you run the risk of escalation, you should be prepared to deal with that escalation.

Bluff if you want, but realize it's better to have ammo and not use it, then not have it and suddenly realize you really needed it.

I'm happy nobody was hurt, and I think it was commendable that Mohail wanted to help somebody who had just tried to harm him, but I think it was a bad idea for him to use an unloaded shotgun and an even worse idea for him to tell the media that he keeps it unloaded.

Shadi Khalil
June 3, 2009, 02:43 PM
Was that a shotgun or a Hi-point?

Hank D.
June 3, 2009, 02:44 PM
The store keeper gave the guy $40.00 and a loaf of bread and a gallon of milk, he kept the $40. and left the bread and milk, why???
Some time ago my wife and I were In the Florida Keys, ( Key West ) on vacation and we were walking around the town and it was a cool night and I had my Marine jacket on, and some guy came up to us and ask me, Hay Bro can you spare some money for a fello Marine so I can get something to eat, and with that because we were on our way to do just that, Eat, and I said to him, I'll tell you what, we are on our way the get dinner and I want you to join us for dinner and do you know what I got In return? F--K You and he turned away and left. In the passed I have paid for other meals for people, If I see some one that truly down on there luck I will buy them a meal but I will never give someone money for booze or to stick It in there arm, no way. My dear Mother always told me " If you have enough water in your well, let others drink " Some other guy wrote In about buying a guy a cheese steak sandwich, which I think is great, I have no problem with something like that. But I will never help someone destroy themselves, no! Sorry for the bad spelling, Semper FI to all, Hank D.:)

Playboypenguin
June 3, 2009, 02:49 PM
One, he better load the gun now that everyone with a TV knows it is unloaded.

Two, that is not a shotgun. It is a Hi-Point carbine.

markj
June 3, 2009, 03:20 PM
Sometimes an act of kindness is all a person needs from another. Folks just dont seem as charitable but I can understand with all of the imposter poor folk on the corners with their signs. I have offered food to these folk and all they wanted was the money. I even offered to take a few to the farm and do work for cash, was turned down.

davebig
June 3, 2009, 03:24 PM
^ A got taken for a dollar by a bum with a crazy limp. I turned the corner
| and looked back and he was magically cured... Needless to say I think
| twice about my charity efforts

Shadi Khalil
June 3, 2009, 04:43 PM
You people are unbelievable. this is a beautifl story and the op was trying to point that out. but you paranoid wanna b milisha troopers have to shoot the story down, with out taking in the facts.

This is the tactics and training forum, people are examing and commenting on the tactics used. Why are you so worked?

Playboypenguin
June 3, 2009, 04:50 PM
...it is nice to see that they are referring to it as a "rifle" now and not a "shotgun." :)

It seems now that the store owner is receiving calls from all over the country praising his behavior and restraint.

I did notice that Jack Cafferty referred to it as an "automatic rifle" though when he said "I guess if you point an automatic rifle at someone you can convert them to anything."

2cooltoolz
June 3, 2009, 10:15 PM
Maybe I don't get it. I hated almost everything about this story. The fact that it is such an unlikely outcome is why it is news. And it's a bad object lesson from both sides.
Don't brandish a deadly weapon during a robbery and expect mercy.
Don't brandish an empty weapon (the bat was actually more lethal) in defense and expect success.

I'm not advocating shoot first, convert later; just be ready to shoot if the bad guy doesn't fall down crying and begging for (fill in prophet of your choice).

Trooper Tyree
June 3, 2009, 11:09 PM
I read this story yesterday evening. :-)

I hope the shop owner keeps his shotgun loaded in the future; *that* could have led to a tragedy if the bad guy had been more of a bad guy. But I really like the shop owner's compassion on the bad guy after he backed down, and his willingness to help him out. Owners of small convenience stores are not rich; they often operate at the ragged edge of profitability. His generosity was all the more impressive given that it cost him money and supplies he probably needed for himself.

Unlike many Americans, I know and have been around a fair number of Muslims. I've met Muslims like this before, and they're the salt of the earth, just like Christians, Jews, and non-religious people who don't walk past when they see somebody in pain or in need. Wish we had more people like this out there.

I too have known Muslims like you talk of, one in particular who started out in this country working in a gas station, was nursing and going to school to be a doctor the last I heard of him. Great person. He carried a spent shotgun shell on his keyring, it was one a robber had discharged at him back when he was clerking at the gas station. It missed.

I can see him doing just what this clerk did though, had he been in that situation.

Many of them are very good and caring people.

I agree though, the clerk should have never spilled that his gun was not loaded, nor should it have not been not loaded, and it had better be loaded now. :o

Owens187
June 4, 2009, 03:02 AM
I highly agree, I really hope he has the sense to have that thing loaded in the future, now that everybody knows it wasn't.
I absolutely refuse to give money to someone who is begging, I would much rather buy them a meal instead.
As for the robber, nobody knows if he really did have a family to feed, he may have just wanted to get the heck out of there before his "luck ran out", we'll never know.
But I do know that if I had to look at my own kids and know they were hungry, and I had no means to feed them, I know I would d*mn sure resort to whatever I HAD to do to get food in their bellies. And I would hate to have to say it, but if that means I have to steal from your family to feed mine, than you better believe thats what I'm going to do.

And most of you will agree with me if you really take some time to think about it.

markj
June 4, 2009, 04:07 PM
Well now seems that guy with the rifle was caught in a sting selling bongs and such. Ya just never know about some folks. He claims he didnt know selling that stuff was illeagal.....

surg_res
June 4, 2009, 07:33 PM
No good deed goes unpunished...

Is the clerk a US citizen? Is that gun legal in his hands?

How many clerks have had their brains blasted out during robberies this year across the country? Do you honestly think this one bizarre event underscores the hundreds of robberies that went not-so-well for the clerks? The guy was probably high on pot--hence the uncontrolled bawling.

Anyone here honestly think that the criminal had some sort of grand epiphany and is now, as we speak, out on a street corner preaching the quran? I'd bet a cool quarter hes casing his next victim.

There is the newspaper, then there is reality.

Playboypenguin
June 4, 2009, 07:36 PM
Anyone here honestly think that the criminal had some sort of grand epiphany and is now, as we speak, out on a street corner preaching the quran? I'd bet a cool quarter hes casing his next victim.
Not really. As Jack Cafferty said..."I guess if you point an automatic rifle at someone you can convert them to anything." Cynical as that may sound, I am betting his change of heart lasted only until he managed to flee the scene. The one thing I would have never done is give him the money. The food I was okay with.

hogdogs
June 4, 2009, 08:22 PM
About conversion...
A protestant moved into a completely Catholic
community. Being good Catholics they welcomed
him into their community. But, also because they
were good Catholics, they did not eat red meat on
Fridays. So, when their neighbor began barbecuing
some juicy steak on Friday nights, they began to
squirm.
They were so annoyed that they went to talk to
him about it. After much talk they convinced him
to become Catholic. The next Sunday he went to
the priest and the priest sprinkled holy water on
him and said:
You were born Protestant.
You were raised Protestant.
But now you are Catholic.
And so, the next Friday, as the neighbors sat down
to eat their fish, they were disturbed by the smell of
roast beef coming from the neighboring house. They
went over to talk to the new Catholic because he
knew he was not supposed to eat beef on Fridays.
When they saw him, he was sprinkling BBQ sauce on
the steak saying:
You were born a cow.
You were raised a cow.
But now you are fish.

Or this one...

An atheist was walking through the woods one day when suddebly an 8-foot grizzly bear began to charge towards him. He ran as fast as he could down the path. He looked over his shoulder and saw that the bear was rapidly closing on him. Somehow, he can't ran even faster, so scared that tears came to his eyes. His heart pounding in his chest, he tried to run faster yet. But alas, he tripped and fell to the ground. As he rolled over to pick himself up, the bear was right over him, reaching for him with its left paw and raising its right paw to strike him.

'OH MY GOD! ...' Time stopped.......... The bear froze ........... The forest was silent...........Even the river stopped moving ...

As a brilliant light shone upon the man, a thunderous voice came from all around, 'You Deny My Existence For All These Years, Teach Others That I Don't Exist; And Even Credit Creation To Some Cosmic Accident. Do You Expect Me To Help You Out Of This Predicament? Am I To Count You As A Believer???'

Difficult as it was, the atheist looked directly into the light and said, 'It would be hypocritical to ask to be a Christian after all these years, but perhaps you could make the bear a Christian?'

'Very Well.' said The Voice. The light went out....... The river ran....... The sounds of the forest resumed and the bear dropped down on his knees, brought both paws together, bowed his head and spoke:

'Lord, thank you for this food which I am about to receive.'

Naw... I think he was "A muslim for a moment"...
Brent

lefteye
June 4, 2009, 08:53 PM
Did the deli owner violate the first two rules of gun safety? Would you rather buy a lottery ticket, "defend" yourself with an unloaded firearm, or tell the perp your firearm is not loaded? It looks like the deli owner had a winning lottery ticket.:rolleyes: Extremely lucky IMHO.

bogieb
June 5, 2009, 05:14 AM
1. the [] robber had a bat, what he going to do, shoot me with splinters?

There are several cases around here of bats being used to kill people. There is no way to tell how this guy would react - he might have decided he had nothing to lose by swinging at the guys head. Then, the shopowner would have had real trouble.

Just because the ending was good, this time, doesn't mean it couldn't have ended a whole lot different if it had been somebody else with that bat in their hand.

Double Naught Spy
June 5, 2009, 06:25 AM
Right...
http://www.startribune.com/local/45690797.html
http://www.waff.com/Global/story.asp?S=10274532
http://www.insidesocal.com/news247/2009/01/teen-robbers-attack-ice-cream.html
http://www.accringtonobserver.co.uk/news/s/1099209_baseball_bat_robbers_beat_up_barman
http://www.courant.com/news/local/hr/hc-web-hartford-robbery-0506.artmay07,0,5320157.story

Baseball bat wielding robbers certainly are at least sometimes successful and can easily do real harm or cause death of victims.

billy1258
June 8, 2009, 09:17 AM
Just read the following article (http://www.csnews.com/csn/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003981224). Seems like the store owner might be fined $30,000 for selling drug paraphernalia.

LightningJoe
June 8, 2009, 02:02 PM
Very silly story.

MTMilitiaman
June 8, 2009, 02:30 PM
I am glad everything worked out for him as it did, but I am with agreement with the majority here. Using an unloaded firearm for defense is foolish, and the results could have been a lot less favorable. When it comes right down to it, some guns make decent clubs when they are unloaded. A Hi-Point Carbine is not one of them.

Additionally, I think keeping an unloaded firearm for defense is foolish because it undermines the basic concept. We all accept that weather they are designed for it or not, firearms are capable of inflicting deadly force. If this fact is nearly as sobering for you as it is for me, it accounts for what has been, so far (knock on wood), a completely pleasant and accident free 26-year life heavily infused with guns on a daily basis. This fundamentally accepted fact is the reason why firearms are legally considered lethal force by most states and jurisdictions, regardless of whether they are discharged or even loaded.

So most states will hold brandishing a firearm, even if it is unloaded, as brandishing a lethal weapon, at least by my understanding. Most states will hold you accountable if you shoot to wound an attacker for this same reason. This is because presenting a firearm is legally considered lethal force. If wounding or frightening an attacker is all that is required, many states will hold you legally accountable for escalating the situation with lethal force when it was not necessary. So presenting an unloaded firearm at the very least holds you to all legal risks associated with using a firearm without providing you with the capabilities to defend yourself if the firearm is actually necessary. This guy would have been better off, morally and legally speaking, with a baseball bat. As he was clearly unwilling and unable to use lethal force, he had no business using a firearm for self-defense. Being ready, willing, and able to use lethal force is a responsibility we all accept when we decide to keep firearms for self-defense. Even though most of us acknowledge that this is almost the worst case scenario, we accept the risk and that is what makes us legal, responsible gun owners. Those unwilling to accept these risks are best served pursuing other means to defend themselves.

It sucks that we live in a day and age where our fellow man often proves to be untrustworthy, and where charity and good-will are often taken as signs of weakness. But there is a difference between an act of kindness and an act of foolishness. This was clearly more of the latter.

stephen426
June 9, 2009, 09:33 AM
So most states will hold brandishing a firearm, even if it is unloaded, as brandishing a lethal weapon, at least by my understanding. Most states will hold you accountable if you shoot to wound an attacker for this same reason. This is because presenting a firearm is legally considered lethal force. If wounding or frightening an attacker is all that is required, many states will hold you legally accountable for escalating the situation with lethal force when it was not necessary. So presenting an unloaded firearm at the very least holds you to all legal risks associated with using a firearm without providing you with the capabilities to defend yourself if the firearm is actually necessary. This guy would have been better off, morally and legally speaking, with a baseball bat. As he was clearly unwilling and unable to use lethal force, he had no business using a firearm for self-defense. Being ready, willing, and able to use lethal force is a responsibility we all accept when we decide to keep firearms for self-defense. Even though most of us acknowledge that this is almost the worst case scenario, we accept the risk and that is what makes us legal, responsible gun owners. Those unwilling to accept these risks are best served pursuing other means to defend themselves.

Sorry, but I'm not quite sure that I follow your reasoning here. If you shoot and wound an attacker, how are you liable in anyway? That is called self defense. As I mentioned in an earlier post, a baseball bat is considered a deadly weapon and you are justified to meet deadly force with deadly force.

You have every right to defend yourself while the attacker is still a threat. Now if you shoot the attacker after he a no longer a threat (he surrenders or is no longer physically capable of defending himself), that will most likely be manslaughter on your part. I'm not sure how the pharmacist will fare since he shot the attacker that was unarmed and already down on the ground. If the kid was still in possesion of a weapon and was attempting to use it, it would certainly be a justified shoot. We will have to wait and see.

Stevie-Ray
June 9, 2009, 02:22 PM
Nice outcome, but personally I think its stupid to point an empty weapon towards a BG in such circumstances. Glad that no one got hurt. Nah. It was a Hi-Point carbine, which basically means at worst, it was bat against bat. I'd take those odds.:)

MTMilitiaman
June 10, 2009, 02:22 AM
Sorry, but I'm not quite sure that I follow your reasoning here. If you shoot and wound an attacker, how are you liable in anyway?

Not shoot and wound...

Shoot to wound.

If you shoot an attacker and wound him, but he ceases aggressive action towards you, that is fine.

If you shoot to intentionally wound or maim an attacker, then as was explained to me, many if not most states will still allow you to be held accountable legally and in civil court. The reasoning is that if shooting to wound was sufficient to stop aggression, then a firearm was not necessary at all, and therefore your use of a firearm escalated the situation. This as I recall from years ago in a 400-level law and government course I took back in college. I am not sure if I necessarily agree, but as was explained to me, legally if not ethically, you are better off aiming COM. If you only wound the guy because he is tough or you are a crappy shot, so-be-it, as long as you get him to stop aggression towards you. But the use of a firearm at all is considered lethal force. Aiming COM affirms that you reasonably thought you were in danger of grave bodily injury or death, and having no reasonable or applicable less-lethal means to defend yourself, you used lethal force to stop the assailant in the quickest and safest method at your disposal.

Might be a good question for Massad Ayoob, actually.

stephen426
June 10, 2009, 10:05 AM
If you shoot to intentionally wound or maim an attacker, then as was explained to me, many if not most states will still allow you to be held accountable legally and in civil court. The reasoning is that if shooting to wound was sufficient to stop aggression, then a firearm was not necessary at all, and therefore your use of a firearm escalated the situation. This as I recall from years ago in a 400-level law and government course I took back in college.

I hate to say it but a justified shoot is a justified shoot. If the attacker posed a real threat that would result in your death or serious injury, then you are justified to shoot (in the state of Florida). If you shoot the attacker and hit him in the leg, causing the attack to stop, that does not make it a "bad" shoot. If the attack stops and the attacker no longer poses a threat, then you are not justified to continue shooting. I guess that is why you always tell the officer that you were in fear for your life and that you shot to stop the attacker.

One other thing to think about is shooting "off center" to prevent taking a life does not seem like a chargable offense to me. Like I said, if the it was a justified shoot and the attack stopped, then it should be a good shoot.

MadSammyboy
June 10, 2009, 11:56 PM
Was that a shotgun or a Hi-point?

I wondered the same thing.

Brit
June 12, 2009, 04:38 AM
Shoot to wound.

Most law, in a self defense situation is quite clear, you as a reasonable person, on seeing a threat that would cause you death, or grievous injury, can use as much force as reasonably necessary, and again "up to, and including causing death" to stop that threat.

A bad end to shooting to wound comes from Israel, a young Army Officer, on leave, is awakened by neighbor, "there is a man, crazed, stabbing people in the market" he goes outside with his pistol (a BHP) the young soldier calls on the man, to drop the knife, he does not, and is shot in the leg, then the other leg (thigh? hard ball 9mm) by this time the distance is a mere 3 feet, and the soldier is stabbed to death.

Shooting to stop a threat, one you, the armed for self defense person sees as real! Shots to center of mass, repeated till the threat is no longer there, that is a valid, and legal response.

And let us face it, why would you shoot someone if your life was not in danger? or the life of some one under your care and protection.

Double Naught Spy
June 12, 2009, 07:43 AM
Brit, nice story. Have a source? The only reason I ask is because it has all the earmarks of an internet myth. These earmarks include being a lesson learned tragic hero story with too much detail about the event without necessary detail to be able to actually research or identify it. In other words, we know the main actor was an army officer on leave and was asleep when awakened by his neighbor. We know he has a BHP and is shooting 9mm ball. We know the opposition is in the market stabbing people with a knife and ends up shot in each leg, the last time from a very specific distance away from the hero.

What we don't know is when this happened, where it happened, or the names of any of the participants.

The story may be true. I don't know. How it is presented, however, is in the form typical of internet myths.

Brit
June 13, 2009, 06:59 AM
Hi Double naught,

Sorry I can not be more specific, this was told to me by one of Station Chiefs of the Israeli Consulate in Toronto, not an Embassy, that was (and still is) in Ottawa.

I leased a Range for my classes, and in turn sub let to the El Al and Consular armed staff. The last time I was involved was 2003, otherwise I would not be mentioning this on a site such as this. No detail of their training was to be discussed, and no one, other than them, and I, knew the days they were down the range.

There must be more detail, but not known, or remembered by yours truly.

Is this a true event? I believe so, but have no facts to add.

Micahweeks
June 16, 2009, 01:57 PM
Blindmandsbluff, while I don't agree with your language, I do agree with your point. I actually said something along those lines recently in the L&CR forums under the Assault Weapons Ban discussion.

Most of the people on this forum have never shot anyone or come close to having to shoot someone. Statistically, only a very small percentage of Americans ever had. So it stands to reason that an internet forum should follow suit as representative sample.

I agree that, often times, the pro-gun crowd is its own worst enemy. People being so preoccupied with the notion of killing someone gives all a bad name. Many of them have a point in that you must be prepared to use your gun if necessary. That is true. But, their delivery and choice of words often makes it sound like they are just looking for a reason to shoot someone, a task most people aren't psychologically prepared to handle as well as they might think.

Just so you feel better, I posed a question about obviously, mentally impaired people who have a history trying to harm themselves. The idea was that someone with a history of violence, toward one's self or others, and who is under the influence of a mind altering drug should have not have access to firearms. Most posters have been very insightful as to how we, as a nation, could or could not handle that in a Constitutionally sound way, but some people just screamed, basically, let the crazy folks have all the guns they want until they shoot someone. I'm just thinking, "Way to give the anti-gun folks some easy ammo, guys. Way to go."

In this case, of course its a great thing that the outcome is what it is!!! But, BMB, you're going to have to accept that not everyone is as reasonable and appreciate of human life as you or I or most of the people on this forum are. Most of us carry guns to protect that which hold so dear, life. Some want guns because they just want some excuse to go Jack Bauer on something.

TEDDY
June 19, 2009, 05:49 PM
robber come in store,clerk gives him the money he has her lay down in back room shoots her in back of head.manning sc may 2009.
two men enter house want money get money walk out one turns around an shoots home owner in face kills him sumpter sc june 2009.
in depresion men went all over country looking for work crime low.2009 crackheads go around robbing and killing.
good luck to you do gooders.:rolleyes:

Brit
July 7, 2009, 01:55 PM
The mind set of shoot them all, and let God sort them out, is not that prevalent on the Firing Line.

Maybe a few, individuals who joined two months ago!

Mind set is a learned response, so to speak, instinct? well that is body operating on an instant open circuit, not a switch, but rather pressure behind a gate that causes the gate to open, but just as a pressure gate, more of a toggle than bolt pulling, a device that swivels, instant application of power.

Steve1911
July 7, 2009, 04:06 PM
They called it a shotgun??? Stupid reporters. That is a hipoint carbine, looks like a 9mm...

That is the same idiocy that makes everyone think that every AK47 style rifle is an "assault rifle". And helps nurture fear in the minds of the ignorant.

:barf:

Nnobby45
July 8, 2009, 06:20 PM
[QUOTE]A gun is, at its core, a tool for causing injury and death to whatever is on its recieving end. If you dont have ammo, your tool doesnt work, and theres no point using it

Didn't work? Come on Zack. The empty shotgun induced a guy to surrender, become a begger, and convert to Islam. All that before leaving with enough money to buy a case of beer and go see Johnny Depps' new Dillinger movie complete with coke and popcorn, and have money left over.

And let's not forget the warm feeling left with the store owner, PLUS the promise never to rob anybody again.:D:cool:

Jeez, all that accomplished with an unloaded shotgun.:D