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Tucker 1371
May 30, 2009, 01:35 PM
So I am aware of the difference in OC and CC and my state allows both, this much I know, not that I would ever OC, it's just not for me. I also know that the law probably varies from state to state.

The other day a friend told me that some concealed carry rigs/holsters are illeagle when I mentioned having a cold weather rig that was somehow secured to the inside of an unzipped jacket (my usual attire during the winter) or possibly a shoulder harness type system where the pistol rested under the arm w/ facing grip out (I've seen them). Most of my jackets have decent sized pockets so I could conceal a compact or subcompact in them but I would like to take advantage of heavier clothing and have a 5" 1911 or similar duty sized pistol. Also I feel I could draw faster from one of these positions as opposed to a holster on my hip.

I am 20 (in October) so I have about a year to go and I have been putting a lot of thought into how I will carry after I get my CCW. I suppose something like this would be covered in a CCW class but I just thought it wouldn't hurt to know beforehand.

Thanks,




-Tucker

comn-cents
May 30, 2009, 01:38 PM
Never heard of illegal holsters??? Sounds pretty darn silly!

jhenry
May 30, 2009, 01:39 PM
Have you considered reading your states concealed carry law? I have 2 guesses. 1. You will find your answer there, and 2. Your friend is an idiot.

Tucker 1371
May 30, 2009, 01:49 PM
Your friend is an idiot.

One unfactual statement does not an idiot make, if there's anyone reading this who has never been wrong about something in their life they can correct me.

As for checking the law I will but GA carry laws are notoriously difficult to find and decipher, their HD laws are much clearer.

comn-cents
May 30, 2009, 01:50 PM
http://www.georgiapacking.org/law.php

took 3 seconds to find. Didn't read it yet...

comn-cents
May 30, 2009, 01:57 PM
Read most of it. It looks like it has to be in a holster of some kind.This law does not permit, outside of a person's home, motor vehicle, or place of business, the concealed carrying of a pistol, revolver, or concealable firearm by any person unless that person has on his or her person a valid license issued under Code Section 16-11-129 and even then the person may only carry the pistol, revolver, or concealable firearm only in a shoulder holster, waist belt holster, or any other holster (ankle holster, crotch holster, fanny pack holster, pocket holster,ect) and also a hipgrip or any other similar securing device (a hipgrip is a type of grip that has a clip sticking out to hook on to your belt or pants, a similar device to the hipgrip is a clip) at which point the weapon MAY BE concealed by the person's clothing, or handbag, purse, briefcase, or any other close container. (Concealed carry is an option but is NOT required to carry a firearm. Firearms can be openly carried. However if you are concealing, the firearm MUST be carried in a holster, clip or similar type of securing device)

Tucker 1371
May 30, 2009, 02:02 PM
I found the same thing just before I read your post comn-cents and I think my question has bee answered; here it is:

c) This Code section shall not permit, outside of his or her home, motor vehicle, or place of business, the concealed carrying of a pistol, revolver, or concealable firearm by any person unless that person has on his or her person a valid license issued under Code Section 16-11-129 and the pistol, revolver, or firearm may only be carried in a shoulder holster, waist belt holster, any other holster, hipgrip, or any other similar device, in which event the weapon may be concealed by the person's clothing, or a handbag, purse, attache case, briefcase, or other closed container

My only question is (I know this is somewhat mall ninja-esque) if I can't find a rig that sits the way I want it does "any other similar device" cover a homemade rig that buttons/velcros/or otherwise secures to the inside of my jacket? I would think so but I don't want to risk it.

zxcvbob
May 30, 2009, 02:37 PM
if there's anyone reading this who has never been wrong about something in their life they can correct me.

Once I thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken. ;)

Donn_N
May 30, 2009, 02:52 PM
I think the intent of the law is to ensure that the gun is secured in such a way that it isn't likely to be easily dislodged and fall on the ground, so a carefully and sturdily constructed homemade carry method that meets that criteria is probably okay. However, I don't live in GA, I am not a lawyer, and my opinion is worth bumpkis if I'm wrong and you're arrested.

James K
May 30, 2009, 03:01 PM
It sounds like the intent of the law is to ban just sticking the gun in your belt. Given the way laws are written, there may have been some safety concern (like a gun falling out of your belt and going off) or a desire to keep folks from casually arming themselves (a holster implies forethought and due diligence). In general, CCW laws have an element of reassurance to the public that folks are not going to be allowed to carry in an irresponsible way or in places of ill repute (e.g., bars). Those provisions are pure nonsense, but a price that usually must be paid to get legal carry.

Jim

jhenry
May 30, 2009, 03:02 PM
Durn it! Now I'm the idiot. I hate when that happens.

Tucker 1371
May 30, 2009, 03:02 PM
It sounds like the intent of the law is to ban just sticking the gun in your belt

Which I saw a guy doing in a gun store yesterday, this was before I knew of this stipulation of GA law though.

Jim March
May 30, 2009, 05:38 PM
Anything that holds the gun securely in place SHOULD be considered by this law a "holster", homebrew or otherwise.

If it also covers the triggerguard providing an extra layer of safety, I would think that would be a bonus in the "is it a holster?" legal sweepstakes.

Kyo
May 31, 2009, 01:01 PM
actually guys there is no law against open carry in GA, and no law saying it has to be in a holster in GA if you open carry.
http://www.georgiacarry.org/cms/category/action-items/paulding-county-man-with-a-gun/
best example. guy with no shirt with gun in pants open carrying with a CCW permit. its legal. I do it when I walk to the dog in the morning cause im too lazy to put on a rig to just take it off in a bit. As long as its in plain sight IE open carried, you don't need a holster. When I do put on the rig I open/conceal whenever I feel like it in the holster. Point is you have an option.

and any holster is fine. it has to be a "retention device" so you could make your own and as long as it retains it its cool. it doesn't even need to cover the trigger. it says any other similar device or any other holster. you should be fine really. your friend needs to read.
I just wanted to clear up the confusion on open carry in GA
http://www.georgiacarry.com/county/paulding_carry/Brief%20in%20Support%20of%20MSJ.pdf
page 19 of that pdf.
A holster or similar device is required when the firearm is concealed, but not
when it is carried openly.
The concealed carry statute, O.C.G.A. § 16-11-126(c),
provides:
(c) This Code section shall not permit, outside of his or her home,
motor vehicle, or place of business, the concealed carrying of a pistol,
revolver, or concealable firearm by any person unless that person has
on his or her person a valid license issued under Code Section 16-11-
129 and the pistol, revolver, or firearm may only be carried in a
shoulder holster, waist belt holster, any other holster, hipgrip, or any
other similar device, in which event the weapon may be concealed….

Tucker 1371
May 31, 2009, 01:14 PM
Kyo: actually guys there is no law against open carry in GA, and no law saying it has to be in a holster in GA if you open carry.

My OP: So I am aware of the difference in OC and CC and my state allows both, this much I know, not that I would ever OC, it's just not for me.

I understand the open carry part. And for concealed carry a holster is required.

your friend needs to read.

Probably, I'm guessing it was one of those "heard from someone who heard from someone" deals. He tends to be highly cautious when it comes to anything firearms related (which is good) but it sometimes leads him to conclusions that will end up handicapping him.

gunokie
May 31, 2009, 02:12 PM
comn-cents Never heard of illegal holsters??? Sounds pretty darn silly!
Yesterday 01:35 PM


It is indeed silly, but that never stopped the BATF! In fact, they designate some holsters as "AOW's" "any other weapon" making them ILLEGAL to use!( Your tax dollars in action!):

There's a very professional magazine called "Small Arms Review" (SAR) that has a lawyer who answers legal questions like this in his column called "The Legal Side". The URL for SAR is:

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/

The magazine's main focus is restricted weapons (machine guns, silencers, etc., ie, "Class 3" weapons, aka "Title II" weapons), particularly in the context of civilian ownership.

I've learned some very scary legal stuff from SAR. I knew that saying, "Officer XYZ told me it was okay" wouldn't hold much weight in court.

But... what I was horrified to learn was that what the ATF tells you also can't be relied upon for your defense in court. EVEN IF THEY GAVE IT TO YOU IN WRITING!

Yup, it's true. Here's a quote from "The Legal Side" article on p17 of the Nov '99 issue of SAR:

"While the ATF administers the National Firearms Act, attorneys from the Department of Justice, not the ATF, will prosecute you for a violation of that law. Ultimately, what DOJ thinks the law means, not ATF, will determine whether you go to trial. Indeed, sometimes courts and DOJ attorneys will disregard the ATF view on what a law covers. There are a number of published cases in which that happened, and the defendant was convicted even though ATF apparently didn't consider the conduct unlawful, and said so."

And here's a related quote from the editor of SAR, on p14 of the Nov '97 issue of SAR:

"I can name three prominent Class III dealers [ie, dealers who are allowed to sell Title II weapons: machine guns, silencers, and Any Other Weapons like your pocket holster --navaho] who had years of problems with the federal government because they got a determination IN WRITING, from the local ATF office. They then acted on the letter, and Washington later overruled the regional office which left the dealers in violation."

The editor then goes on to point out:

"The gun laws in the US do not make any sense because they are NOT the laws that they writers intended to write."

He then explains that in 1934, the government wanted to ban machine gun ownership by civilians. The attorney general told them that they couldn't (2nd Amendment), but... they could TAX them. Nudge, nudge, wink wink. So in 1934, the federal government imposed a $200 tax on machine gun ownership. This is 1934, when $200 is a huge amount. Even huger considering that 1934 was _the_ worst year of the Great Depression, and we had an unemployment rate of 35%!

In other words, what the feds really want to do is ban ownership of firearms. They can't, so they have created a legal mishmash of laws that makes the US Tax code look logical and trivial in comparison.

----

One last note. The June '98 issue of SAR contains an article about the Galco wallet holster. Here are some relevant excerpts:

"The ATF defines an Any Other Weapon (AOW) as, 'any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive'. By using this definition alone, this could one day be used to cover almost any concealed firearm, for example a pistol that can be discharged through a coat pocket."

...

Since the wallet doesn't have a serial number, the ATF required the _firearm_ and wallet to be registered as a combination, on an ATF Form 2.

"The Galco line discontinued these items as of Oct 2, 1997... due to 'extreme customer service attention needed to field dealer questions' which has 'made it unprofitable to continue its sale'."

...

"After all the paperwork and red tape required to register the pistol/holster combo, one is left with the question, 'Was it worth it?' Truthfully, probably not. The holster combo does make an excellent backup piece for concealed carry. However, due to the classification of the holster combo as an NFA weapon, the holster will end up in the back of my safe as a curio only. It will probably never be taken out except as a conversation piece."

Steviewonder1
May 31, 2009, 09:28 PM
As a resident of Georgia for several Decades and have gone thru one blue card per pistol and now CCW since day 1, I do not OC. I CCW also known as GET it Out of Site! OC is legal in Georgia, but why do it?? All it does is create problems and issues you have to deal with. CCW is what we all want to do. I really liked John Wayne and his 6 gun, but I do not want to walk the streets of the USA like he did in the old West. Outta sight is best!

Kyo
May 31, 2009, 10:50 PM
dude I work in John's Creek. its a 15 min drive from Duluth to there. I OC just fine with no problems. People look for 2 seconds and go about their business. I don't ever OC without a holster unless its my neighborhood in the morning, but I do OC at the local QT's and publix, walmart, wherever I feel like it. No one says a word, and no one even looks mean or scared or anything of the sort.
I guess out of sight is good, and I did it today while I walked for 3 hours straight, but if there isn't a law against it, I will do it cause I can.

FM12
June 1, 2009, 03:50 PM
Keeps you from walking around with the gun in your hand, like you're looking for action.

Tucker 1371
June 1, 2009, 06:29 PM
Good. Grief.

Read my OP. I know I can OC in GA. That was not the question. The question was wether or not some holster rigs were illeagle.

Come on people, read before you post.


Apparently some idiot cop in Cedartown told my friend's dad that the shoulder harness rig where the pistol sat under the arm was illeagle.

This one is resolved I believe, request to close as people are getting confused and missing the point.

Lost Sheep
June 1, 2009, 11:24 PM
Durn it! Now I'm the idiot. I hate when that happens.
__________________
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of smart.
That's OK, JHenry. Everybody needs a change of clothes now and then.

Lost Sheep

I really like your signature line.

BMSMA
June 2, 2009, 12:21 AM
actually guys there is no law against open carry in GA, and no law saying it has to be in a holster in GA if you open carry.
http://www.georgiacarry.org/cms/cate...an-with-a-gun/
best example. guy with no shirt with gun in pants open carrying with a CCW permit. its legal. I do it when I walk to the dog in the morning cause im too lazy to put on a rig to just take it off in a bit. As long as its in plain sight IE open carried, you don't need a holster. When I do put on the rig I open/conceal whenever I feel like it in the holster. Point is you have an option.

This is something that I did not know. As a CC licensed GA resident I always thought that it had to be in a holster if not at home.

The code seems to say differently. I still plan on caring securely at all times, but it is good to know that it is still a freedom and choice that I can make.

Thanks for starting this post GSUeagle1089.

Tucker 1371
June 2, 2009, 12:28 AM
Keep in mind no holster applies only to open carry not concealed carry.

BMSMA
June 2, 2009, 01:06 AM
Very true.

I greatly enjoyed being able to get an indepth understanding of the that can be found at
http://www.georgiacarry.org/cms/category/action-items/paulding-county-man-with-a-gun/

especially the information found at
http://www.georgiacarry.com/county/paulding_carry/

Props to Kyo for the submission.

armsmaster270
June 2, 2009, 02:33 AM
The only rig I know of that is illegal is in CA wallet holsters are outlawed. It's stupid but that's the law.

Housezealot
June 2, 2009, 08:30 AM
so is the belt clip on a p3at legal?
I'll be looking into that, its not open carry so I think I'm cool.

Housezealot
June 2, 2009, 08:34 AM
I just came across this holster, boy talk about breaking rule number 2:eek:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/ktvert-1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/04/30/neck-chain-holster/&usg=__d8pI2LWzLVCDXD4ullML3khpiFs=&h=407&w=272&sz=163&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=hywuTCOrTm_FpM:&tbnh=125&tbnw=84&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dkel%2Btec%2Bneck%2Bholster%2Bvertical%2Bcarry%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:*%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

Tucker 1371
June 2, 2009, 08:45 AM
^^ No kidding


so is the belt clip on a p3at legal?

Google your state's concealed carry laws, as you can see from earlier posts in this thread that's what we did.

Mr. James
June 2, 2009, 09:00 AM
Great guggamugga.

I'll pass on that particular model. :eek::eek::eek:

Housezealot
June 2, 2009, 09:14 AM
Google your state's concealed carry laws, as you can see from earlier posts in this thread that's what we did.

I just can't really be sure with the way it worded. ity really doesnt seem to state anything about manner of carry.

TailGator
June 2, 2009, 10:07 AM
>I just came across this holster, boy talk about breaking rule number 2
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...a%3DN%26um%3D1<

What's the big deal? Not like it's pointed at a vital organ - just the BRAIN:eek:

PhoenixConflagration
June 5, 2009, 05:40 PM
GSUeagle, I'm curious as to why you're looking so hard at a shoulder rig. I think most people will tell you it's not that great a method of carry. For one thing, the barrel will constantly be pointed at whomever is behind you.:eek:

A good IWB holster is about the best way to go for most people, and will work well in hot or cold weather. Check out Crossbreed holsters or Comptac holsters, and search TFL for holster threads.

Kmar40
June 5, 2009, 06:38 PM
deleted.

Tucker 1371
June 6, 2009, 03:30 PM
Phoenix,

I'm not really sure, I just don't feel like I could draw very quickly or well from a IWB/OWB holster although I have none to practice with. And yeah now that I think about it I'm not too terribly comfortable with the idea of having my carry gun pointing at the folks behind me. If I went with a belt holster I think I would have to explore some of the different methods of drawing from it.

Thanks guys.

zxcvbob
June 6, 2009, 03:40 PM
The necklace holster looks just fine for carrying, if you never *ever* intend to draw. I can't think of a safe way to draw from that holster without violating the safety rules (and it's not like you have the gun pointed at your *foot*)

Lost Sheep
June 6, 2009, 04:42 PM
Oops. Obviously I messed up the subject line. Should be, "Not all shoulder rigs point rearward".


GSUeagle, I'm curious as to why you're looking so hard at a shoulder rig. I think most people will tell you it's not that great a method of carry. For one thing, the barrel will constantly be pointed at whomever is behind you.

A good IWB holster is about the best way to go for most people, and will work well in hot or cold weather. Check out Crossbreed holsters or Comptac holsters, and search TFL for holster threads.
__________________
There is nothing quite so dangerous as a pacifist, for they will readily sacrifice others for their ideals.

I beg to differ.

I have one shoulder holster (for a large revolver) that has the barrel pointed straight down. I have another (for a small frame short barreld revolver that has the gun pointed straight up. Depending on how I have it adjusted and my body position, the gun might be pointed in front of, into or slightly behind my armpit.

Other shoulder holsters have the gun pointed rearward or rearward and up.

I have yet to see a shoulder rig the points rearward and down, but would not rule out the possibility.

About the only holster I would rule out or the realm of possibility is one that has the gun pointing out.

The primary active safety with any firearm is between the ears.

Lost sheep.