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Tucker 1371
May 29, 2009, 03:16 AM
I have been thinking about it quite a bit lately and I've realized that my current plan of response in an HD scenario doesn't take into account how other members of my family may be reacting to the situation and this could present a problem.

I am the oldest son and oldest gun owner in my family, home from college this summer. My 15 year old brother also has a few guns (not legally his yet). If I have to respond to a bump in the night my go to gun is a 5.45x39 AK kept on Condition 3 leaning next to my bed (would rather have a handgun or 12ga but money has not allowed).

Considering I will have to come downstairs to check out a disturbance my parents (who are downstairs) will probably already be out of their room for a look or even confronting an intruder.

Q #1: If my parents are already out and about (obviously they will be unarmed) and have confronted the intruder (which I know my father will if he is awake) who is not leaving the house but not threatening anyone should I enter the situation just to hold a gun on the guy while the LEOs respond for good measure or leave it alone and avoid escalating it?

If the guy is threatening anyone he is going to be shot if I have a clear shot. Period.

Also, my little brother (who has a Tapco'd SKS and 20ga shotgun) may want to help. I don't like the idea of this at all. He does not keep his cool very well and I can just picture myself taking a 7.62x39 round or some birdshot in the rear because of him (Yes he is familiar with the 4 rules and does a good job practicing them, it's other areas of his behavior that bother me, he tends to blow up in high stress situations). Ideally I would have him stay upstairs and make the 911 call, I trust him with that. Problem is he's hard to reason with and arguing with him will waste valuable time and likely make noise.

Q #2: Should I let him come (with warning of course) or try to make him stay upstairs?


To the mods: I read the sticky about the endless asinine scenarios. The above is a genuine concern for me so if you will please allow it to be addressed.

martin08
May 29, 2009, 08:45 AM
A fifteen year old in possession of a firearm in a home falls under parental control, consent and supervision.

Is this your problem? Or, is it your truly (and under the law) your father's issue?

scottaschultz
May 29, 2009, 09:00 AM
You're not going to like this, but it is your parent's house, not yours.

I will be 52 years old tomorrow. I have 3 children and 7 grandchildren (with #8 due by Thanksgiving), but when I go to my mother's house, it is still her house and I abide by her rules... period... end of story!

I know you want the best for your family, but if they don't want guns in THEIR HOUSE, then what choice do you have? You can live by their rules or move out.

Scott

Tucker 1371
May 29, 2009, 10:20 AM
but if they don't want guns in THEIR HOUSE, then what choice do you have?

You are missing the issue and assuming things. First, my parents are not anti-gun in any way at all, my father has been considering buying a handgun and I am advising him on that. He is not a firearms enthusiast but would buy a gun solely for the purpose of home defense. Right now a decent reliable handgun is not in the budget, food and bills come first. When money allows I will make sure he get's a decent gun like a Glock (not my favorite but good for someone like my dad).

Until then it is my job, I am 19 (20 in October), you probably think differently but I consider myself an adult and so does the law. I can legally own long guns in my state (1 more year for handguns and CCW).

Now, if you would or are able to, please give my question some attention.

Niisan2309
May 29, 2009, 10:35 AM
My brother is in college, and stays with my family about 25% of the time. We have our basic plan that if anything needs investigating I (and only I) will go out and investigate. Both wife brother and child are to stay in their rooms and depending on the situation call 911. If any shots are fired they are to call 911 (if they haven't already) and listen for me to yell our (previously and mutually agreed upon) phrase. If they don't hear it, they are to turn the hall lights on, and shoot any hostile who comes down that hallway whether they have me (somehow) hostage or not. Now there are a variety of things that could possibly go wrong with this, however simple instructions I've found are the best thing for my wife.

In your situation, I would have my brother stay up stairs, with out his guns. It just seems that would be "safer". You said money was tight, and trust me I understand that. I would see if your dad would be willing to have your brother's (or technically your dad's?) shotgun by his bed. Then establish responses to what ever scenarios you want.

Just my opinion, so take what you deem useful out of it, and toss the rest. :)

Tucker 1371
May 29, 2009, 10:41 AM
Thankyou Nissan.

Sixer
May 29, 2009, 10:49 AM
I've got a younger brother (19) that reminds me of yours... Truth is, by the time he wakes up the whole thing would probably be over with :)

Seriously though, if it was me I'd still want my brother next to me in that situation. I'd also wan't my dad checking with me before confronting any pontential BG's unarmed. For all he knows it could be you or your bro stumbling around the kitchen at 3:00am fixing a bowl of cereal.

Bottom line is that it's very difficult to guess how any one of us would react to the situation until it's actually happened. Your best bet is to have a sit down with the boys and figure out who's doing what in that scenario.

P.S. the thought of your brother having a hot temper AND guns doesn't give me the warm fuzzies either. Just sayin.

hogdogs
May 29, 2009, 11:14 AM
"Level of responsibility" and "communication" are what needs hashed out. In military units think of chain of command. Junior, my son, knew he could respond to a threat but not with the silence I was allowed as he had to hail me as he advanced to mitigate risk of either of us being shot. He knew I would be silent unless I heard his voice then I would give a "PSEEET" or such so he knew my general location...
Brent

martin08
May 29, 2009, 11:21 AM
Q1. No.

Q2. No.

Scenario #3 - You are first to confront. Then the responsibility for decisions rests upon your shoulders. Prepare yourself for scenario #3.

Tucker 1371
May 29, 2009, 11:33 AM
P.S. the thought of your brother having a hot temper AND guns doesn't give me the warm fuzzies either. Just sayin.

You're not the only one. We're both wrestlers and I've seen him blow up on the mat and make an @$$ of himself, he's gotten at least a few penalties for unnecessary roughness per season wheras I got maybe 2 in 4 years (I wasn't gentle by any means though). Granted he is going through that stage where he hasn't really learned to control his testosterone. Also, he is very mindful of the four rules and understands the possible consequences of a screw up with a gun. I will sit down and talk to him about it, probably my parents too.


"Level of responsibility" and "communication" are what needs hashed out.

I agree. Given that my parents are not armed and not very familiar or practiced with guns (not that consider myself practiced enough but I am very familiar with mine and my brother's guns' controls) I think the responsibility falls first on me, at least until my dad has gotten a gun and practiced with it. Since little brother and I will both be coming from upstairs I think as long as he keeps his head on straight I will be better off for having him with me.

rburch
May 29, 2009, 12:00 PM
Any other siblings besides the 15 year old? I'm in a similar situation when I at home, me and siblings on the 2nd floor, parents on 1st.

My brother is 15, we've worked out that if we have a intruder his job is to grab a shotgun from my room (doesn't have his own yet) and guard the upstairs.

My sister just turned 21 and is getting a handgun, so the 2 of them should be safe enough up there.

So if you have other siblings, just give him the task of protecting them while calling 911.

Slightly off topic, if your dad isn't really into guns, a revolver might be a better choice than semi-auto.

scottaschultz
May 29, 2009, 01:04 PM
You are missing the issue and assuming things.I am sorry for making assumptions, but had you provided the information you provided in your second post about your family situation, that might have avoided some confusion.

I apologize. Be safe.

Scott

MLeake
May 29, 2009, 01:08 PM
Oddly enough, I had assumed his parents weren't anti-gun because they allow his 15yo brother to have guns (legally his father's)....

Mr. James
May 29, 2009, 02:13 PM
I don't doubt your good faith, or your abilities, for that matter, but this has the potential for true catastrophe all over it.

Lessee, we've got an intruder in the house, we've got unarmed parents wandering around the ground level investigating the bump in the night, we've got one armed son on the second level intent on clearing the house, and we've got a second hot-headed son with an SKS looking for something that needs killin'.

Q1: No.

Q2: No.

You also need to sit down with your entire family and seriously hash this out before the need arises. Who goes where, who investigates (you might give consideration to letting the po-po do this, unless your house is really out in the sticks), and who stays the hell in his room (guess who that is? ;))

Presence of other/younger siblings obviously colors your plan, as does the physical plant - the actual layout of the house, number and location of available exits, surroundings, etc.

God bless you for taking your responsibilities seriously, but do be careful! As mentioned, you need clearly delineated responsibilities and a plan in hand (and mind) before the fact.

martin08
May 29, 2009, 02:55 PM
Everything that Mr James said.

And the head of the household must be responsible for the plan's implementation.

Lee Lapin
May 29, 2009, 03:01 PM
See http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/basictraining.asp , and read the class description for the Personal Protection In The Home Class. There's a class locator tool on the site also, to let you know if the class is available near you.

Failing that, the classroom portion is available on DVD at http://materials.nrahq.org/go/product.aspx?productid=ES%2026840 . The textbook is available at http://www.nrastore.com/nra/Product.aspx?productid=PB+01781 . These resources will help you better prepare to deal with home defense situations by developing a plan, rehearsing the plan with ALL family members, and preparing to put the plan into use if necessary.

You can also evaluate Louis Awerbuck's video, Safe At Home, at http://www.paladin-press.com/product/129/73 . And there's more training material out there.

First thing, though, is to make your home less inviting to would-be criminals. Good strong doors and windows, secured with good locks, are basic. So is motion activated exterior lighting, alarm systems, clearing out potential hiding places for criminals, dogs, fences... you get the idea.

hth,

lpl

Tucker 1371
May 29, 2009, 03:23 PM
unless your house is really out in the sticks

It is, my neighbors are the 300+ head of cattle in the next pasture over if that gives you any idea. With that piece of information you would think that I wouldn't have to worry about a break in so much but my grandparents who live just down the road have been broken into twice, both times tires were slashed and phone lines were cut, the first time a .454 Casull followed them out the door, the second time the alarm system did it's job. Still the degree of premeditation involved was quite alarming, makes one wonder what they had in mind.

Edit: motion activated exterior lighting, alarm systems, clearing out potential hiding places for criminals, dogs


Check on all but the fence, also the alarm is just a noisemaker, it is not monitored (another budget issue).


Thanks for all the input guys, I will have a serious talk with my little brother and parents on what our response should be in this situation.

Vanya
May 29, 2009, 04:44 PM
who would u rather have protecting u me a teenage straight A athlete who has masterd a hunters safety corse (should be called a firearm saftey corse cause thats mainly what we talked about) or a 64 year old diabetic with heart problems who has bad legs?

Actually, I'd rather have the grownup -- especially if he's "masterd" the English language a bit better than this. :cool:

And the head of the household must be responsible for the plan's implementation.

Exactly. I like that the OP is thinking seriously about these issues, and that he's listening to the various suggestions posted in this thread, but in general -- there's a reason teenage boys have, oh, way higher car insurance rates than the rest of us: they're mostly not known for being level-headed under stress. I find the idea of a 14 or 15 year old boy (or girl, but especially a boy) with a gun in a home defense situation a bit scary, to say the least...

And I wonder about the potential liability for the parents.

Tucker 1371
May 29, 2009, 05:06 PM
Well sir, I am not 14 or 15, I'm 19 and legally an adult. Yes I would prefer my father have a gun and be familiar with it but those aren't the cards that I have been dealt. Maybe another day and time, until then it falls on me and I want to be as prepared as money will allow.

Right now "as much as money will allow" is me with an AK. As soon as I get a summer job and have bought myself an old beater set of wheels I will be using any extra funds on either an 870 18" express/police model or an Ithaca 37 HD model.

And I wonder about the potential liability for the parents.


I have read Georgia's home/self defense laws several time over, as I understand them I am a member of this household and am justified in the use of deadly force with no duty to retreat from such if a forcible entry has been made into my place of residence. See for yourself and correct me if I am wrong: http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/2005_06/fulltext/hb1061.htm

Vanya
May 29, 2009, 05:26 PM
Well sir, I am not 14 or 15, I'm 19 and legally an adult.

No need to take offense, GSUeagle. My comments were not directed at you, but mostly at bamafan4life, who did say he was 14... As I said, I like that you're thinking seriously about this, and wanting input from folks with experience.

I was also trying to reinforce the concern you expressed about your 15-year-old brother -- I think you're right to be worried about how he might act:

Also, my little brother (who has a Tapco'd SKS and 20ga shotgun) may want to help. I don't like the idea of this at all. He does not keep his cool very well and I can just picture myself taking a 7.62x39 round or some birdshot in the rear because of him (Yes he is familiar with the 4 rules and does a good job practicing them, it's other areas of his behavior that bother me, he tends to blow up in high stress situations).

And I still wonder about parental liability for the actions of a 14-year-old with a gun...

Tucker 1371
May 29, 2009, 05:34 PM
Sorry, I guess I was being a wee bit defensive Vanya, my bad. Yes, he and I will have a talk and definitely spend some time at the range this summer. We will get this hashed out and have a plan.

ECHOONE
June 4, 2009, 03:21 AM
Sorry but your parents should have the guns,not that your not capable but them being down stairs and being the first to respond it's there call! what do you think an intruder is going to do if he sees you coming down the stairs with a gun? First thing is grab your mom or Dad,now you have a hostage situation it just esculated!

Glenn E. Meyer
June 4, 2009, 02:47 PM
Why not get everyone together and as a group work out an explicit and rehearsed action plan? Then rehearse it again.

Personally, I wouldn't want a person who is not able to handle stress behind me with a high powered gun. There are sad cases of family members shooting each other in HD situation because of misunderstandings, booboos, etc

People should not be wandering around with unknowns in the dark and you two guys blindly joined the fray.

I recall a scenario in FOF, when afterwards, a buddy finds out that he 'shot' his son.

This needs to be a group discussion. Last, if the homeowner (parents)disagrees then that's it. Your choice is to go elsewhere.

SP Shop Foreman
June 5, 2009, 07:04 PM
Young man, Lee Lapin gave you some advice to which you didn't bother responding. You're not even on the front doorstep of being prepared either emotionally, mentally or factually. Step back, get some hands on classroom and range experience, instruction and then pick up your firearm.
At this point you're a lawsuit waiting to happen and a prosecuting attorney's dream.
Best of luck and please find a qualified instructor.

SP


I need to say that the post was from my Father. He was walking by and read over my shoulder and responded. He's a CC certifier for the Sheriff's Department.
Sorry it this is a breach of board etiquette.

Latigo

Kyo
June 6, 2009, 02:28 AM
Have a plan that everyone knows.
My plan is if ever needed take the safety off the gun, get everyone inside 1 room including the dog, lock the door, keep dog at your side, call 911, defend said door from intruders.

Tucker 1371
June 6, 2009, 03:03 PM
Young man, Lee Lapin gave you some advice to which you didn't bother responding. You're not even on the front doorstep of being prepared either emotionally, mentally or factually.

My apologies to both you and Mr. Lapin. I did look into some of the NRA courses offered and I plan to attend at least two when I have a handgun and time and money allow.

However, there is no need to belittle me because of my age. I am trying to be as ready and prepared as I can given my current experience. Can you fault me on that? I have a full understanding of my state's self defense laws and have read as much as possible about individual self defense cases in my state, barring any foolish actions (i.e. Oklahoma pharmacist) on my or another family member's part I have a very good idea of how my state's laws would apply in the aftermath of a use of lethal force in defense of our home. I know I am not ready mentally, but who is who has not had the unfortunate experience of taking a human life? I know I have one skill that is important to have in a high stress situation and that is the ability to detach emotionally and fall back on training or a plan of action. I know that if I do not do this when I have to defend my home then I will surely fail, I will either hesitate and be killed or make a very costly mistake that causes me to take the life of a family member or close friend. Short of the formal training mentioned above I believe I am as prepared as I can be, for now.

I have discussed this with my family and we have decided on a best course of action, I still have some talking to do with my younger brother but he will get straightened out and know his role.

Edit: My plan is if ever needed take the safety off the gun, get everyone inside 1 room including the dog, lock the door, keep dog at your side, call 911, defend said door from intruders.

I like this, low risk for me and hard to construe as me being a "bloodthirsty vigilante". My parents will (should) be guarding their own door with my brother's 20ga. That said and my dad being the very authoritative ex-navy officer that he is will probably still try to remove an intruder just by barking orders at him. If that fails I have a feeling that we're in for a rough night.

SP Shop Foreman
June 6, 2009, 06:14 PM
Well, I'm only 10 years older than you are, but my Dad is 44 years older than me. I think anyone under 40 is a young man to him.:D And he didn't mean his comments to be demeaning, but think about this.
NRA certification classes are the next best thing to worthless unless you're going hunting. You have no real idea about what can and will happen to you after you pull the trigger on a human being, bad guy or not. There's state laws and prosecutors, and then there's the one you should hope you never face. Civil law suits. Thats the one that seems to be able to dodge the laws and land you in a jail cell for a very long time to come.
You have no way of knowing which direction the whole thing will take after there's just you, a body, the Sheriff and the vultures waiting in the wings.
The best you can do is be as well educated in the ramifications of pulling a trigger. You need to find a CC instructor that has references. The responsibility to find the right instructor and the most thorough course is yours.
My Dad almost never posts anything on the net anymore, but I'm going to go find the one that he did post for a guy who was sort of in the same boat as you. You might find it good reading, and at least it will give you something to think about.

Latigo

Tucker 1371
June 6, 2009, 06:22 PM
Thankyou Foreman, I'll be sure to read it.

to amend Article 1 of Chapter 11 of Title 51 of the Official Code of Georgia Annotated, relating to general provisions for defenses to tort actions, so as to provide immunity from civil action for the use of force in defense of self or others

Taken straight from Georgia code pertaining to self defense.

Read the rest of it, I feel pretty well covered if I shoot someone I don't know who forced their way into my home in the wee hours of the morning:
http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/2005_06/fulltext/hb1061.htm

I've read and re-read this about 15 times over so I feel like I know it pretty well. Let me know if you spot something you think I missed.

SP Shop Foreman
June 6, 2009, 06:58 PM
Its this one. And I'm glad you're protected in your state, or at least I hope it stays that way.

http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=60859

Interesting reading at the very least.

Latigo

cracked91
June 6, 2009, 07:52 PM
Sorry but your parents should have the guns,not that your not capable but them being down stairs and being the first to respond it's there call! what do you think an intruder is going to do if he sees you coming down the stairs with a gun? First thing is grab your mom or Dad,now you have a hostage situation it just esculated!


Im sorry but I disagree with this statement. If the father is not willing to mentally condition himself or does not really care that much to have a gun, then as long as he is okay with it they son who actually knows what he is doing should be the one armed. If one of the inexperienced parents grabs the gun, then gets it taken away from them because they are not actually ready to kill someone, then the situation really just escalated. As for your brother, Until he really gets some experience with it you should have him bring his 20 ga just unloaded. I think the scare factor for the BG would go up when confronted with two people with long guns vs. just one. I would say get to where your family is as quickly as you can and then assess the situation from there.

MosinM38
June 6, 2009, 08:18 PM
First, I'd just recomend you get the family together and talk it over.

If everyone looks over the facts, it may be easier to work something out ;)

Right now, I'd see if your brother would leave his SKS or 20 gauge with your dad.

What I'd recomend: Dad has a gun, you have one as well. Work it out a "Plan" on what do do. Ask your brother (Phrase it this way as well), to remain upstairs and call 911, this way there is a always-open 911 line, and as "backup" (All of this will sound important). If there are shots fired, pre-arrange some kind of signal, and then decide on what to do.

Right now, our plan is no one leaves the rooms. Me and dad's rooms are within 15 feet of each other. We stay within the doorways, so anything in between AIN'T US. Only after we sorta figure out who's who, we look around more. Everything's one floor, and really open (Only 2 closed off/unseeable rooms), so it is alot easier for us.

Regardless, I sortof plan on getting a home-alarm system. Only problem is we have a driveway alarm, and all the freakin animals keep setting it off ;) I don't know what we'll do with something circling the entire house!!!

To the comment above: I was under the impression that the father was willing to learn,etc. just that money is tight enough that he didn't want to yet?

Tucker 1371
June 6, 2009, 09:54 PM
Until he really gets some experience with it you should have him bring his 20 ga just unloaded.

An unloaded gun is one of the most useless things in the world. I believe I'll just have him grab his phone and hold down the upstairs.

First, I'd just recomend you get the family together and talk it over.

We have. I still have some convincing to do with little brother but he will come around. As for my parents they will be staying in their room with a 20ga while I respond. They really barely know "come here" from "sic 'em" about guns so this is best for now until I can get my dad to get a gun and log some range time.

Senator Vitaman
June 6, 2009, 10:07 PM
Have you considered letting your brother lead, so he won't accidentally shoot you? Then again, there's a risk he'd accidentally shoot someone else.

onthejon55
June 7, 2009, 12:22 PM
If the BGs are confronted by your parents then they arent likely to be worried about or aware of your presence. This gives you alot of time to sneak down the stairs and either set up and wait for the BGs to turn the wrong corner or to sneak up on them and take control of the situation. Since your parents are unarmed then you do not have to worry about them accidentally confusing you with an intruder which makes your job a whole lot easier.

Also if someone has illegally entered you house, the situation has already escalated to the point where a gun is necessary.

Is there anyone else who lives in the upstairs part of the house with you and your brother? you could put your brother in charge of defending them. If not just explain to him the importance of dialing 911 and convince him thats the best way for him to help out.

cracked91
June 7, 2009, 12:53 PM
An unloaded gun is one of the most useless things in the world.

Not necessarily true, I would rather attempt to beat someone to death with an unloaded cobra then try to shoot them with a loaded one.