U.S. Arms Abilene SA Revolvers

[AUTiger73]

Are there other owners of U.S. Arms Abilene Revolvers out there?

Other than Gun Parts Inc.(formerly Numrich)does anyone have a source for parts? Gun Parts Inc. is out of some of these parts but still has the all important trigger spring.

I have 2 of these revolvers that were made prior to Mossberg's takeover of production.
Both are .357 Magnums. The one with a serial number below 2000 that has the cylinder pin screw on the right side and cross-ways in the frame. The other one has a serial number in the low 3000 range and has cylinder pin angled in the front of frame.

I've found these guns to be extremely accurate and durable. The only parts breakage so far has been the trigger spring. The fit and finish is excellent. The cylinder in the earlier gun has about .001 barrel gap and not much better at the rear of cylinder.

These guns are a reloader's dream. The .357 is really a .44 Magnum cylinder blank simply drilled for the .357 caliber. Unlike the Ruger Blackhawk, the frame is all steel as is the ejector rod housing. However, they are absolute intolerant of high primers and care must be taken in full resizing of brass and seating of primers. Very tight tolerances here.

History has it that Ruger sued U.S. Arms over the patent infringements related to the transfer bar safety. The company fell upon hard times and Mossberg bought them out. Like everything else Mossberg has acquired, the company died from neglect.

I would welcome any comments or experience others may have with these guns.



[This message has been edited by AUTiger73 (edited February 18, 2000).]

[Seville]

see www.singleactions.com

John

[Mal H]

Strictly out of curiosity, John, what made you decide to answer a question that is about 7 years old? How did you even find it?

For what it's worth, AUTiger73 hasn't been back to TFL since 2002.

[Seville]

I am a collector. I found your site about 4 months ago. But am not all that savy about how to get on. I post a lot on sixgunner. My Father Sig Himmelmann designed and produced the Abilene in Riverhead New York. I was about 8 at that time. All I did was search Abilene. He also designed and produced the Seville and El Dorado made in Hauppauge New York. Then we moved to Az and made the Seville and Seville Stainless. I thought it would be nice to see if someone would repond to the thread again. Do not know whether the man is even still here.

John Himmelmann

[RJay]

How you doing John, I read your posts on e-gunparts forum a while back. I found them very informative and interesting Where in AZ. I'm down in the Goodyear area.

[SIGSHR]

I have had my AIG Abilene in 44 Magnum (short barrel) for over 20 years,
someday I will get another.

[Seville]

I settled in Tucson. This is where my dad moved the company in 1980 from Bisbee. I like it here most of the time. Dad lives a little north of Tucson. The Mossberg abilene's are ok but I think the ones made prior are smoother, mostly because of the action changes Mossberg had to make in the wake of the Ruger lawsuit. Agian Lee Martins web site is very informative www.signle-actions.com. I also post at www.sixgunner.com

[Seville]

The web site is www.singleactions.com.

Sorry for the error.

John Himmelmann

[IRRebel]

Wow, Sig Himmelmann's grandson, and in Tucson, what an honor. I am a fan and in great respect of what your grandfather designed and built. Rumour has it he was the catalyst that split US arms and started United Sporting Arms over quality, and for that, thanks. The world needs more men with commitment to quality.

Ray

[Seville]

Hi Ray,

I am actually his son. My son who is 10 also lives here in Tucson. Sig is alive and well, just turned 78. I now realize how much what he did really meant to the gun industry. Althoght looking back now he does not get the accolades some did.

John Himmelmann

[Lee Martin]

John,

Your dad hasn't gotten the credit he deserves. Hopefully our article will bring to light many of his accomplishments, such as:

1) The first stainless 44 Magnum
2) The first use of 17-4PH stainless in a single-action
3) The first single-action to handle the Maximum & SuperMag rounds (pre-dating the Ruger Max by almost a year)
4) One of the first revolvers Elgin Gates used for his 375 SuperMag
5) The first commerically available 454 Magnum (one year before Freedom Arms released the Model 83, though Dick Casull had been building them on a custom basis)
6) And most importantly, the first commercial premier grade single-action. Some folks think they shoot like a Ruger....then they put Sevilles & El Dorados on paper and see why the model was so special.

I'm sure I'm forgetting a few things, but I feel it's important that folks know your dad brought forth these advances.

Lee Martin
www.singleactions.com

[Seville]

I truely beleive it is your article that takes the credit for helping people to understand more about the history of Unted Sporting Arms. I am and was glad to have been able to help you in your writing of your article. I beleive your original writings were what started a process to get information out there to help everyone to really understand the blood , sweat , and frankly some tears that went into the company. Dad today, even at 78, still thinks about the company and with some small series of changes, and maybe some better luck, where it could be today. If only the issue of the big money that is needed today to start over. I have been to Prescott and toured the Ruger investment casting company. Even back then it was a hugh facility. I can not think of what it is today. Just as the original Seville in Hauppauge were made with NO CNC equipment as it could be today. It is really nice to see, even after so many years people still have an interest to learn aout the guns. As I read things that are written it sometimes takes me back to realize just what dad did. I remeber telling you that when Elgin Gates sent a Dan Wesson to us for a 375 Barrel. Well dad still has the original 357 barrel on his bench at his home in his garage.

Also to add I always love these sights (spelling noted) as they bring the thoughts back of everything I remeber.

John Himmelmann
Seville

[Lee Martin]

John,

Like you and your father, my dad and I have been building guns and wildcats for years now. Long after we're gone, they'll still be around and maybe someone will want to know their history. What's important is that the history is recorded and that's why I'm so thankful for all of your help on documenting Sporting Arms, Inc.

As for the Seville, El Dorado, and Abilene, they were truly special guns....I too am glad that there's a renewed interest in them. When I first started collecting them in 1992, most people viewed them as a Ruger clone. Hopefully you and I have changed (and will continue to change) that opinion.

BTW, my first Seville was 10.5" 375 SuperMag. The first time out, it cut less than an 1" at 25 yards off the bench (using old WW680 and a 220 grain Hornady). Needless to say, I was hooked on them from the get go.

Lee Martin
www.singleactions.com

[Seville]

I remember test firing the 375. There was an older man here in Tucson, who is now gone, named Lee Klink. He ran Klink's Custom Ammo. We had bought like 10,000 rounds of 375 winchester brass and cut it all down to size, on a manuel lathe, I might add. Lee loaded all that ammo for us to use for testing that first gun. I loved the feel of the 375 USA MAG. I even had a personel license plate for my car that read that. Which I still have. the plate, unfortunately not the 1967 Firebird. That Caliber really shot well. Flat, less recoil then the 44 mag, I thoght anyway. But it was just such a pleasure to shoot.

I hope people read this and really get an understanding of the guns. Well all of my guns will someday go to my son, bow 10, and hopefully with the understanding of how lucky I was to work with and for my Dad. They will be around long after me and hopefully he will pass them along as well.

By the way what was the nuber of your first Seville?

John Himmelmann
Seville

[Lee Martin]

John,

I think it's SN 3-00382. I'll have to dig it out of the safe and check. It's your basic 10.5" model with Pachmyrs and a 2 pound trigger. Like you mentioned, those sights are hard to beat.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

[Seville]

Do not worry about pulling it out. I was just wondering on the number if new or old series. Is the cylinder fluted or not, if you know?

[jimj]

Just picked up a 357 Abinene. Very nice.
Read all your posts...Thanks for the info on everything- Seville. U da man
10-0020xx is the SN.
One of the Riverhead, NY Abilenes.

[Seville]

Your first post, Nice to have you here. I am somewhat new here too. Chime in anytime. Does it have the transfer bar?

[jimj]

Thanks, for the reply.
Yes it is in very good condition. Also has a transfer bar.
What kind of gun is this a collectable or some rare piece. I've read the big article on the Seville very good info. I'm not sure if I want to shoot it, it's
tooo prettty.

[Seville]

I guess you need to decide. the early Abilene's with the transfer bar are rather hard to find. I have 2 a 44 and a 357 that I have never fired. One nib, New in box 44.

[AUTiger73]

AUTiger73, after a long absence, is back. I left when the FiringLine Forum was closed, and only recently noticed activity had resumed on this discussion board. After doing a site search for U. S. Arms, I found my original posting received a reply 7 years later. That must be a record for this forum. I also see other discussion threads on this subject. It appears that the U.S. Arms Abilene is finally achieving the respect it deserves.

As stated in the original posting I have 2 of these guns. One of them has been holstered and carried frequently and the other is in 100% as new condition. Both of these guns are of pre-Mossberg manufacture, but there are differences. The lower serial numbered Abilene's base pin (or cylinder pin) is simply held in place by a screw that enters the frame at a 45 degree angle. The higher serial numbered Abilene's base pin has a horizonal spring loaded device that secures the cylinder base pin similar to the earlier Ruger SA. I have no earthly idea why this was changed.

I would be interested in hearing from someone that is knowledgeable of the history and design changes in the Abilene.

Much has happened since my original posting. My U.S. Abilenes have been retired to my gun safe in favor of 2 modified stainless steel Ruger Birdshead 45Colt SA revolvers carried in a double shoulder holster. But that is another story.

It is good to be back with the FiringLine folks. I'll try to drop by more frequently in the future.

[Seville]

I found the site and started looking around for posts of things that interested me. I started with the Abilene, Seville and Kart names. I actually heard from a site administrator about the post I put on being some far from the original post. I like to beleive everything happens for a reason and finding the site and also the topics was for a reason. You can read a lot more info about Abilenes and Sevilles at www.singleactions.com under United Sporting Arms. The site and article are by Lee Martin who is a collector and shooter.

the frame at a 45 degree angle this was done to combat recoil. The bae pin would "jump out" under heavy loads. The screw was added to keep it from jumping out.

Please continue to post as I am interested in keeping the history alive .

[AUTiger73]

Seville:

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I'm aware of the base pin recoil issue with the Ruger guns. I experienced this problem with a 44 Magnum Super Blackhawk. However, I thought it rather strange that the my older (earlier serial numbered) U.S. Arms Abilene has the frame drilled and tapped for a base pin screw. This screw enters the front of the frame at approximately a 45 degree angle to the base pin. The newer Abilene (having the later serial number) is the one with the "Rugerish" horizonal spring loaded base pin retaining device. Therefore it appears that later production changes moved to the horizonal spring loaded device which would be prone to recoil upset. All of this was prior to the Mossberg production of these guns.

Nevertheless, both of my Abilenes are .357 magnums and heavy enough that recoil would not likely be a problem in dislocating the base pin.

Yes, I agree that the U.S. Arms Abilene's history needs to be kept alive. While I own a number of Colts and Ruger SA guns, my Abilenes are the most treasured. My first Abilene was acquired at a Ft. Lauderdale, FL gun show in trade for my Winchester 94. That Abilene has a 4-5/8" barrel and, even though a bit heavy, it was the gun I carried into sawgrass country. I had a holster custom made for it and carried it frequently on my excursions south of Everglade City. Unfortunately it now shows a lot of holster wear and some rust pits on the ejector rod housing. It could be easily restored with a new ejector rod housing, but they are NIS at Gun Parts Inc. (However, I do have a few spare trigger springs and varous screws for these guns.)

My older Abilene is the most accurate of my .357 revolvers, having consumed many factory loads and some of my nastiest reloads. This Abilene is more accurate than my S&W Model 19 and various Ruger revolvers both SA & DA.

My newer Abilene was acquired a few years ago at a gun shop in Dothan, AL.
The first owner apparently never fired it and I've since fired it 6 times to confirm it is at least equal to my first Abilene. The deep blue finish reminds me of the early Colt revolvers (i.e., Python et.al.). It will remain in my gun safe and will receive periodic cleaning and maintenance. It is a treasure that is not likely to be found again.

You have much to be proud of in your father's involvement in the design and manufacture of the Abilene. In time, I believe the U.S. Arms Abilene will be recognized for their high quality, accuracy, and collectibility.

Hope we hear from other Abilene owners, especially related to the various production changes found before the sellout to Mossberg.

[AUTiger73]

Correction:

Looking at my original post, I may have gotten the base pin change backwards. It would appear the earlier serial numbered Abilene has the spring loaded horizontal base pin retainer and the later serial number Abilene has the 45 degree screw entering the from of the frame to retain the base pin.

Oh well, it comes with age (62) and a full gun safe (29). Could be that I finally reached the point of having too many guns ??? or maybe it is the years of collecting and shooting that has fogged-up my brain.

Nevertheless, knowing that Ruger had a patent infringement suit again U.S. Arms, maybe the change in base pin retention was to appease Ruger. In fact, I never heard the outcome of that law suit.

[Seville]

My understanding is the cross lock for the base pin was the original. That is what my dad says. The front 45 degree angle screw came after he left US Arms in Riverhead. So the lower number would be the original gun. The latter being Mossberg but with some of those having a transfer bar. As to the lawsuit, Ruger sued both US Arms and United Sporting Arms. My dad went to William B Ruger SR. office in Conn and basically settled the lawsiut with him. The big problem was Ruger had all the money. As dad tells it Ruger told him the only ones benefiting from the law suit was the lawyers. It was really creating a going broke situation for United Sporting Arms. Dad and Ruger agree to end the litigation between the 2. Then United Sporting Arms agreed Ruger had a valid patent and Mossberg was sunk. They had to change the transfer bar as Ruger, at that time, licensed us to use his patent. The company had never done that before. Ruger told dad the only reason he did it was the quality of the Seville and El Dorado line.

[Toothpicks]

Bump for some old friends.

Hey John, how the heck are you?

I used to hang out at your shop in Tucson back in the late 80's, and got one of the .454 Sevilles (which I still shoot and show proudly). I still remember test firing a "Competitor" in that caliber, and I'd give an arm and a leg to find one of those puppies today! Do you remember how many of those were produced?

BTW, I just found an old 7.5" .44 Abilene in beautiful condition in a small shop near Seattle. Don't know why I hesitated, but he'd better still have that thing when he opens on Tuesday because I WANT!

Say Hiya to Sig for me please.

Ty

[CraigC]

Where are all the big bore Abilene's hiding? All I ever see is .357's.

[rogertc1]

Perhaps you could get some import parts from http://www.vtigunparts.com and modify them to work??

[Seville]

Be sure to check out www.singleactions.com

[Supermagfan]

Seville,

Looking for some help. I just bought a 375 USA made in Tucson. SN 364. I managed to stick the first and only 4-cases in the cylinders that I've fired through it. Are the case dimensions fifferent on these Seville's than that of a Dan Wesson 375 Supermag? I have never had a problem with any of my rounds chambering or extracting from the Dan Wesson's. Do you think my Seville has a problem?

Any help would be appreciated.

[Seville]

Go to www.singleactions.com.

I also forwarded your post to Lee. He wrote the article. I helped him but he really knows things like this.

[OLD LOADER]

Bought my 44 abilene in the late 70's.I had looked at 2 other abilenes before, sloppy trigger on both found a 3rd great crisp trigger ,7/12 the screw will flatten at the tip this makes it hard to remove,then I have to file down the tip of the screw.
It is a great shooter .It is also a river head and 4 diggit sn.no. gun shops did know anything about It all said never heard of it.I am 74 now need to start selling my collection of guns now.

____________________________________________________________________________________________
JIM

[OLD LOADER]

:D :D

[TLAR]

Need some help. I've owned an Abilene in 44 mag for about 10 years now. It was made in Riverhead with a Sn of 50-004031. I took it to the range for the first time in several years and after 20 rounds (light target loads) the anvil link broke in half. The part lists for about $10 with Numrich, but it is the old style link (1.825") and has been out of stock for some time. What other options do I have...can I replace a few parts to convert it to the new style link or are there other parts dealers out there that may stock the piece? Thoughts/advice?

[CraigC]

Seems to be a common malady. Got a picture? Does it look like Ruger's transfer bar? If it looks like a Ruger transfer bar, you're in luck. The same thing happened with Dad's .357 and I had Jim Stroh replace it with a Ruger part for a minimal charge.

[Seville]

Got your email and was thinking the same thing, to see a picture?

John

[TLAR]

Hopefully the pic uploaded successfully. If not, it's part #41 in the Numrich diagram at the following link:

http://www.e-gunparts.com/productschem.asp?chrMasterModel=4390zABILENE

[Seville]

Is # 41 shorter or longer? If shorter find a welder to weld a little on. If shorter you can always sand it down shorter.

Let me know?

[TLAR]

My Abilene has the old style link...1.825". This part is currently unavailable. The new style is 1.440".

[Socrates]

You might contact Jack Huntington Advanced Gunsmithing.

Jack can make pretty much anything that goes in a gun, by hand.

[CraigC]

My Abilene has the old style link...1.825". This part is currently unavailable. The new style is 1.440".

Then yours is the same style as Dad's. A Ruger transfer bar can be fitted to it with minimal effort. I had Jim Stroh do his. He said that welding on such a small casting would be tricky at best. He opted to replace with the Ruger part, rather than fix the original. It would cost a hell of a lot more to build a new one from scratch.

[44abilene]

I shot my 44 Abilene for the first time the other day. I got it off a guy who decided he was gonna be a fellon. So it's been packed away for 3 yrs. One guy previously told me that I probably wouldn't be very impressed and that it is just a replica(but he owns a 380 made of pot metal). You guys are painting a different picture. I am curious as to what it's worth. It's #1200 and does say A.I.G. Inc on the 7 1/2" barrel. This gun has been shot very few times, and the front sight had been reinstalled once before. A very nice piece. And I was very impressed with the way the building shook when I took it to the range.

[Seville]

Congrats on your 1st post here !!!:cool:

Whoever told you that your Abilene would not be impressive probably wanted to buy it from you real cheap:D

They are worth around $300 depending on condition. You can always go to the gun auction sites to see what they are selling for.
You can read more about them at www.singleactions.com and there is also a forum over there.

[KLongmire]

First time post here, but I just picked up an Abilene 357 10-0026xx and I must say I am very impressed. Perfectly balanced and what a shooter!! I am actually going to strip and re-blue this beauty. It's great to learn about the history here and hear from the creator's son. Any suggestions on which blue or black to use? I want to make this gun look like a show piece.

[Cash]

This is a great thread and I will make this my first post.
Just wondering if there any features that mark the transition from U.S. Arms ownership to Mossberg built guns?

I have a U.S. Arms Abilene in 44 mag., serial in 4000's(number 50 appears just before), transfer bar ignition and 45 degree screw to hold in base pin, with Riverhead, NY on barrel and frame. It has gold US Arms medallions on the wood grips. The trigger is wide and serrated, well back toward the rear of the guard. I was immediately struck at how finely finished and fitted the gun is. My brother bought it, he thinks, in 1979 or 1980 in Phoenix, Az. I lusted after it for many years, and recently he gave it to me. Did I mention he is a wonderful brother?:D

[Seville]

re blueing a gun it is more important to prepare it with a great polishing job.

[Cash]

Correction......the reason the trigger is so far back on mine is because the half fcock and trigger return are broken. Gonna have that fixed. It's in the 50-4400's range. I would think that it is some of the first of the Mossbergs, but the transfer bar and Riverhead markings have me wondering what time frame this was made and if it might be pre-mossberg. Have a good one.

[Cash]

Based on info fom Lee Martin, a gun with the Riverhead marking is pre-Mossberg. I had the serial wong. Mine is in the 50-004200's range so US Arms made it that far. The busted half cock, hair trigger and trigger return problem all turned out to be a simple trigger return spring. That one little spring be muy importante! Alan Harton has it done and ready to rock and roll. What a gentleman he is to work with. Can't wait to try some Keith 250's in it.

[rudy270]

mine is a 10 inch 44 mag serrial # is A004077 don't belive it was ever fired no box or papers love the dark wood grips deep rich blueing and sights don't know a thing about this gun been serching then by luck found this sight thanks and seville tell your dad thanks for this wepond

[Trigerhppy]

I recently came into posession of a Mossberg Abilene, S/N A001XXX that my Grandfather purchased. Nobody in the family knew about it, my Grandmother just found it, 21 years after his death. How much of a quality drop off was there after Mossberg took over manufacturing?

Also, thanks for the history lesson. Glad people are remembering those who've been so instrumental in the firearms industry.

[Seville]

check out www.singleactions.com

[rudy270]

I did and i can't find info thanks

[MKD]

Not to high jack this thread but I have a question and since I found this site and topic about the gun when I was researching the firearm I thought I would ask this question. I have had this gun for about 20 some odd years and have taken it hunting with me many times. (actually shot some deer with it) Well I am older and I am having a scope mounted to my pistol to use for deer hunting exclusively. Has anyone else done this? I know the gunsmith said he needs to custom make the scope mount because stock mounts will not work. Any feed back will be appreciated.

[Seville]

as long as a qualified smith does the work to maintain the integrity of the frame you should be fine.

[MKD]

Thanks

[Resjr73]

I have an Abilene .44 mag, magnaloy with an original 6" barrel. The barrel was pinned, the firing pin hole welded shut and I got it with a new firing pin, a new 7 1/2" barrel, original box with the wood lid, original papers and I need a frame. Numerich Arms said that the frame is no longer available and a good gunsmith said he wouldn't drill and mill it cause the temper in the metal was changed when it was welded. This hand cannon is beautiful, ser. # A003558 and I don't want to see it on a wall. Can anybody help me please?

[Static8]

Hi folks,

Yesterday morning my brother-in law called me from an estate sale and asked if I was interested in buying a revolver. He described the piece to me and told me that it was a U.S. Arms .45 in beautiful condition. He knew that I'd been wanting to buy a revolver for quite a while and I'm glad he called me. I asked him how much they were asking. They wanted $400. He said that while he's not interested in revolvers, he thought this was one of the most beautiful revolvers he'd seen and though I'd heard of U.S. Arms, I didn't know much about the company. I asked him to purchase it for me and I would pay him back. Anyhow, when I first saw the gun yesterday it looked like it had only been fired a few times if at all. We shot 24 rounds through it and it was surprisingly smooth. He told me that if I changed my mind about purchasing the gun after seeing/firing it he would understand and would keep it for himself. I immediately fell in love with it and purchased it on the spot. Last night I was scouring the internet trying to find out as much information on it as I could but surprisingly I couldn't find much on the .45. Most of the information I found on this forum was on the .357 and .44 variants of the weapon. I don't know much about the changes made to this gun besides the angle of the screw facing the cylinder. At any rate, I thought I would post some pictures of this beautiful revolver and hope that some of you fine folks can help shed some light on this .45 model. I don't question that I got a good deal on this, but I was wondering as to it's rarity and estimated value. It's a true beauty and a joy to shoot. I enjoyed reading the previous posts regarding the history of the U.S. Arms company. Thank you in advance for any input.

Below is a link to pictures of the gun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW-wKOqE1FQ

[Supermagfan]

Seville,

I own a Hauppage NY .44 mag in Stainless that I need a replacement rear sight for. Do you know of a source for one? Lee does not know of one.

Desperate for a rear sight

[The Shadow]

Thanks to ..... John Himmelmann and Lee Martin for detailed reminders like this to help keep the memory of US Arms & US Sporting Arms alive today. I purchased my new .44 Mag, Abeline with 7.5 bbl and the rare Magnaloy (brushed chrome) finish sometime around 1979 +-. It's a tank, with beautiful fit & finish, and comparable in many respects to my FA's. As you can see, it's still 100% w/wood lid box and papers.

the Shadow

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/jumbojxl/New_2AbelineOptimize-CropVI.jpg

[KateKrueger]

That is a beautiful Abilene you have and as I write this reply I'm looking at an identical version of it EXCEPT this one has a 4 5/8" barrel.

It is 44 MAG and has Magnaloy finish with pristine wood grips and the cylinder has never even been turned (not a mark on it). SN A005010. It is nestled in its original box with wood cover and resting on it's original papers.

Can someone tell me how old it is or it's value or anything? According to the books I've read these were made in 7.5 and 8.5 barrel lengths.

Thanks for the help,
Kate