Colt 2nd generation [Archive] - TheFiringLine Forums

Poordevil

May 24, 2009, 10:54 PM

There have been countless tales how Colt's dusted off the old tooling from the 1851 and began manufacturing new guns at Hartford, which would have been very interesting had the tooling not been destroyed when a fire razed most of the factory on Feb. 4, 1864. As for the tooling used to make the later percussion models produced through 1873, it was simply discarded over the years, so Colt's could never have brought back the 1851 Navy, or any other percussion era model had it not been for Forgett, Uberti and, ultimately, Lou Imperato.

Imperato, who founded Colt Blackpowder Arms Co. in 1993 (which produced the 3rd Generation Colt Blackpowder line through 2002), recalls that Forgett sold Colt's the components (rough castings) to build the first 2nd Generation 1851 Navy revolvers, which were completed at the Hartford factory from 1971 through 1973

Okay all the Colt bp tooling was either lost to fire or "discarded" So, how did the Italians ever get all the specs for these Colt pistols in order to reproduce the first replicas? Did they copy Colts old tooling or just have access to specs and build modern tooling from those? Or maybe they actually had old Colt pistols to use for reference and produced copies from them? And what ever prompted them to even consider producing bp replicas in the first place? That seems like a bizarre business venture for an Italian gun maker to take on.

I read different histories of the Colt repos and these fundamental questions are never addressed.

Fingers McGee

May 24, 2009, 11:36 PM

I thought the preceding two paragraphs answered that question:

The tale of the 2nd Generation Colt black-powder line actually began in the late 1950s with Val Forgett, founder of Navy Arms, and Italian gunmakers Vittorio Gregorelli and Aldo Uberti. They chose the Colt 1851 Navy as the first percussion revolver to be reproduced in Italy in 1958.

After a dozen years and thousands of Colt reproductions, the success of the Italian-made '51 Navy--which Aldo Uberti frequently supplied to filmmaker Sergio Lione and Clint Eastwood for early spaghetti westerns--had finally come to the attention of the company that invented it.

IIRC, specs for the pistols was obtained by reverse engineering a 2nd Model '51 Navy.

Poordevil

May 25, 2009, 12:06 AM

IIRC, specs for the pistols was obtained by reverse engineering a 2nd Model '51 Navy.

Okay that answers one of my big questions, the other is how did a small gun maker in Italy even see a market for reproducing obsolete firearms for sale in the US? It is a big investment starting up a business like that.

The tale of the 2nd Generation Colt black-powder line actually began in the late 1950s with Val Forgett, founder of Navy Arms, and Italian gunmakers Vittorio Gregorelli and Aldo Uberti. They chose the Colt 1851 Navy as the first percussion revolver to be reproduced in Italy in 1958.

I guess it was Val Forgett who actually saw the market and Uberti and Gregorelli were his business partners.

Gaucho Gringo

May 25, 2009, 06:26 AM

I read that the original gun they used to reverse engineer had a dent in it. They made the prototype so well, it even had the dent. Needless to say the dent was removed in the

Hawg Haggen

May 25, 2009, 07:54 AM

Yeah, the trigger guard was bent.

Poordevil

May 25, 2009, 09:39 AM

Did they get their hands on originals of all the models they eventually copied? Did someone loan them a Walker for them to reverse engineer?

Hawg Haggen

May 25, 2009, 10:00 AM

Probably so or the lever on the repros wouldn't fall like the originals did.:D

Wobble

May 25, 2009, 11:53 AM

I have heard the modern Italian replicas, are good enough such the parts will actually fit and work with original guns. Since I don't have any orginals, I can't verify that, but I don't doubt it's true.

I've also read that the real driving force behind the Italian replica gun industry was the American movie business. It was too expensive for moviemakers to buy original antique weapons. Western movies were big in the 1950's and 1960's. Then when the Italian-made spaghetti Westerns came along in the 1960's and 1970's, there were no original guns to buy in Italy.

Uberti and others still supply most of the guns for modern movies such as the recent (great film) Appaloosa, in which all the revolvers were Uberti, as they did for most the Clint Eastwood westerns and Civil War movies.

My guess is that the public and BP enthusaists soon saw the opportunity to own these same guns and created the industry as we know it now.

Fingers McGee

May 25, 2009, 11:58 AM

There are some who claim that the Italians found a prototype of a DaVinci time machine buried in the Gardone Valey around 1956 and once they got it working, used it to travel to 2003 to collect examples of replicas they could reverse engineer. :D

Can't remember where I heard it; but......... it could happen :).

Noz

May 25, 2009, 02:46 PM

Really??

CaptainCrossman

May 25, 2009, 03:18 PM

OldMontana-very interesting- same author I quoted in the "for sale" forum- now this quote from the article states the same info- it reads as if the barrels, cylinders, backstraps were Italian castings, finished in USA- but the frames, center pins, nipples, screws, springs were made in USA parts start to finish. It specifically states one set of parts was Italian cast/finished USA- but the others were made by Ivers Johnson- giving the impression the frames and arbors were not Italian at all.

In this case, the 2nd gen guns would be superior and the guns to buy

from the OP link, scoll down to the 10th paragraph- a deliberate, specific effort was made by Imperato, to avoid the Italian frames, and use made in USA frames by Ivers Johnson I've seen a few vintage Ivers Johnson BP CB guns at recent gun shows, one was a Rogers & Spencer, they appear to be a premium made gun:

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/Cap+%2526+Ball+Resurrection

"Unlike their first arrangement, Imperato was now responsible for the entire production of Colt black-powder models. "They were all hand-fitted. There was no way to do mass production," explains Imperato. "We had the barrels, cylinders and backstraps cast in Italy (as Forgett had done), but we finished them off in-house. We made the frames, the center pins, nipples, all of the screws, springs, and built every F Series gun at Iver Johnson Arms. We even used the old style color-case hardening method with the charcoal and bone meal, and Colt's exclusive Colt Blue Finish. They turned out pretty good. In fact, I think our finishes were actually better than Colt's single actions being done in Hartford."

Mk VII

May 25, 2009, 04:56 PM

William B Edwards (with Val Forgett) was responsible for a lot of the early efforts at getting BP revolvers (Colts at first, then others) back into production. He sent guns out to Italy by various means for them to study. The story is told in a final chapter of his Guns Of The Civil War. At the time the collecting fraternity were very hostile about it, fearing that the appearance of brand-new guns would devalue the worth of their own collections. Such fears have proved groundless; the market was perfectly capable of distinguishing between the value of originals and of reproductions and pricing them accordingly. Forgery also proved to be largely a groundless fear, with several features, e.g. threadforms, to differentiate between old and new.

CaptainCrossman

May 27, 2009, 08:53 AM

Today I contacted both Ivers Johnson and Imperato, to get more information on this 2nd Generation/Ivers Johnson parts issue. They're going to get my message later this week, and reply.

we're gonna peel this onion, once and for all

madcratebuilder

May 27, 2009, 09:17 AM

Today I contacted both Ivers Johnson and Imperato.

Lou Imperato owned the Iver Johnson Co. I believe his son is the owner now. You'll need to tune up your Ouija Board to contact Lou, Mr. Imperato has passed.

CaptainCrossman

May 27, 2009, 10:37 AM

I didn't say Lou.

his son

;)

Hawg Haggen

May 27, 2009, 06:56 PM

This message is hidden because CaptainCrossman is on your ignore list.

Cool Beans!:cool:

olmontanaboy

May 27, 2009, 06:58 PM

Cool Beans!
Lol:D

Fingers McGee

May 27, 2009, 06:59 PM

CaptainCrossman

May 28, 2009, 07:41 AM

Imperato got back to me last night- that previous quote about the frames/nipples/screws/springs/cylinder pins, was his dad's- his email below:

"I can only assume that we have to take his quote as gospel. I believe those parts were made here in the US but how the frames were made I do not know. The market is really becoming very small, insignificant. With the Italian-made spaghetti westerns of the 50's / 60's they (Italians) decided to get into the business. Colt had no interest as they were on the verge of making a ton of M16's for Vietnam. Honestly I think the blackpowder repro market is dead, and I don't forsee anyone tooling up to make better guns. The market calls for $99 imports, that's what most people want to pay."

sounds to me, like the later 2nd Gen Colts had made in USA frames, and those cheap POS import brass frame guns, flooded the market, and ruined it- and drove overall quality down.

madcratebuilder

May 28, 2009, 08:03 AM

Quote:
This message is hidden because CaptainCrossman is on your ignore list.
Cool Beans!

Makes my day.

CaptainCrossman

May 28, 2009, 08:43 AM

Makes my day.

boy, I'll say...

That reply from from Anthony Imperato.

He doesn't run Ivers Johnson.

He owns/runs the Henry Repeating Arms Co.- the original inventors of the lever action rifle of the 1800's, that Winchesters were later patterned after. All their guns are made in USA- he's putting a picture of my son on their website, opening his new Henry 22 lever action rifle on Christmas Day 2008.

Here's the company logos:

"HENRY RIFLES WILL BE MADE IN AMERICA OR THEY WON'T BE MADE AT ALL"
"Made In America and Priced Right"
"Load On Sunday, Shoot All Week Long"

you won't see any crappy import parts, or soft, low-quality steels in the Henry guns. I suggested they make cap/ball revolvers, because I firmly believe if they made them, they'd sell like hotcakes with this high standard of made in USA quality. It appears the market volume is insufficient, to justify the investment needed to produce cap/ball revolvers in USA.

check this movie out

http://www.henryrepeating.com/videotour_wmv.cfm

if I was going to buy a big bore lever action cowboy gun, it wouldn't be an Italian import- it would be another Henry. This 22 we have, blows away the import stuff- and it only cost $250 at Walmart

http://www.henryrepeating.com/rifles.cfm

CaptainCrossman

May 28, 2009, 08:50 AM

Lou Imperato owned the Iver Johnson Co. I believe his son is the owner now. You'll need to tune up your Ouija Board to contact Lou, Mr. Imperato has passed.

please post the source of this statement of yours, because it's obviously incorrect- not even the same company.

CaptainCrossman

May 28, 2009, 12:21 PM

I've heard lots of conflicting storys on the 2nd Colt percussion revolvers (I had two and let them slip through my fingers) and thought this article very interesting.

I got a few more replies lately- the Colt Factory called me today. They said the Colt 2nd Gen guns are far better made than the Italian replicas. Referred me to an author on the subject who wrote the 2nd Gen Blue Book.

So I called the author, he verified Colt 2nd Gen is a much higher quality gun than the Italian replicas- and he has a 5 sheet internal Colt document, that states the various QC specs on the Colt 2nd Gen.

He could not prove or disprove Dennis Adler's statement, that the frames/nipples/springs/screws/cylinder pins in later 2nd Gen guns, were made in USA by Ivers Johnson.

He did say, 1000's of Italian parts were REFUSED by Colt, and sent back to Uberti and ASM, because they didn't meet spec for the 2nd Gen guns. Some of the specs were:

cylinder to barrel clearance must be .001"-.008" when assembled.
spring on wedge must protrude out other side of barrel slot, when assembled
cylinder pin must be firmly in place in frame- any looseness means rejected
cylinders and barrels must must not have any voids or delineations/lines in it, or casting imperfections

and much more- I intend on getting a copy of the tech sheet for reference, from him

He also stated: all 2nd Gen guns were cast frame, but 1st Gen guns were FORGED FRAMES. I replied in that case, 1st Gen guns from the 1800's are superior to any replicas.

His reply, with laughter, was "WITHOUT A DOUBT"- 1st Gen guns are superior to replicas.

He stated, 2nd Gen guns are superior to 3rd Gen- because overall the quality is better, and 2nd Gen was boxed/sold/lettered by Colt- whereas 3rd Gen was made/sold/shipped outside of Colt, and only licensed by Colt. You can get a good or bad 3rd Gen gun. But all 2nd Gen guns will have a higher standard of quality.

source: he's the author who wrote the 2nd Gen blue book on gun values.

The Colt employee who called me, stated the bluing, material hardness, and case hardening on 2nd Gen guns, is far superior to any Italian replica. He bought a Uberti from Cabela's, just to compare to a 2nd Gen Colt- he said no contest, the 2nd Gen is vastly superior in quality.

Wobble

May 28, 2009, 12:46 PM

CaptainCrossman

May 28, 2009, 05:50 PM

Captain, thanks for the effort and the very enligntening information but I'm not sure I understand what it means in terms of the BP guns available to us today -- secondary-market 2nd and 3rd Gens, and Italian replicas. Should I throw away my POS NIB 3rd Gens I recently bought? And all my Uberti's? I love them all, regardless of where the parts came from.

This info is only to help the OP, and get the information out there- you do as you please, or what suits your tastes and budget.

I'm selling off my Colt open top Italian replicas, with cast frames. The 1860 Army is already sold, the Walker goes tomorrow. No more for me. I'll keep the 1851, 'cuz my dad bought it for me, he passed away in 1998. I'd like to get a Colt 1st Gen or 2nd Gen gun- and preferably a 1st Gen. I'd avoid the 3rd Gen., the experts spoke somewhat spotty about them. I'll keep my 2 Remington imports, because they are topstrap designs and strong guns, and have proven it with full chambers fired repeatedly, one has lasted 22 years. If I buy any more Italian open top Colt patterns, they will be the forged frame Ubertis. I believe Uberti went to the forged frame, to give the market a shot in the arm. There was definitely a quality issue, that needed to be addressed.

Fingers McGee

May 28, 2009, 06:54 PM

This message is hidden because CaptainCrossman is on your ignore list.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh:)

Captain, thanks for the effort and the very enligntening information but I'm not sure I understand what it means in terms of the BP guns available to us today -- secondary-market 2nd and 3rd Gens, and Italian replicas. Should I throw away my POS NIB 3rd Gens I recently bought? And all my Uberti's? I love them all, regardless of where the parts came from.

Wobble.

Buy, collect, and shoot what ever appeals to you, regardless of where, when or who it was made by. And regardless of what anyone else thinks.

I think I'll gou out and buy a couple Brass, ASM .44 cal '51 Navies just to aggravate a few people. :D:D

Oldfalguy

May 28, 2009, 09:23 PM

Excellent bit of information gathering-

Just for my own edification when was the
1st generation Colt produced ?
2nd " " ?
3rd " " ?

Without knowing it would seem a 1st generation would be an original wouldn't it? Now that would be rather spendy!!!!!!!!

My Uberti 1860 must be at least 25-30 years old and probably only fired a dozen times. Am getting it tuned, fire blued and parts hardened now- no telling when it will be finished.
Might look into finding a Colt 2nd gen sometime in the future-

Mark

mykeal

May 28, 2009, 10:16 PM

The so-called '1st Generation' Colts are the originals, and you need to specify model to determine years of manufacture.

2nd Generation Colts were produced from 1971 to 1982.

3rd Generation Colts were produced from 1994 to 2002.

CaptainCrossman

May 29, 2009, 07:04 AM

The author of "2nd gen price guide" stated, the 3rd gen Colts were a license only deal- they didn't go through the rigorous Colt QC inspection, that the 2nd Gen Colts had to meet. The bottom line is, the 3rd is not as desireable. The author shoots an 1860 2nd Gen, for the past 30 years, and stated to me on the phone yesterday- the barrel/cylinder/wedge interface is just as tight, as the day he bought it.

Now that's impressive.

When the subject of brass frames came up, both Colt employee and author stated "you don't want to buy brass frame guns"- the Colt employee also had a few choice adjectives that I can't repost here, if you get my drift- both stated in their experience, the brass frames can shoot apart/loose in as few as 20 rounds.

an older fella who's buying my Walker, and has been shooting BP for 40 years now, stated he also had bad experiences with brass frame Remingtons- he said after about 100-150 shots, the frames would stretch and the gun would start malfunctioning, due to cylinder pin misalignment

CaptainCrossman

May 29, 2009, 07:13 AM

Quote:
This message is hidden because CaptainCrossman is on your ignore list.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Quote:
FCaptain, thanks for the effort and the very enligntening information but I'm not sure I understand what it means in terms of the BP guns available to us today -- secondary-market 2nd and 3rd Gens, and Italian replicas. Should I throw away my POS NIB 3rd Gens I recently bought? And all my Uberti's? I love them all, regardless of where the parts came from.
Wobble.
Buy, collect, and shoot what ever appeals to you, regardless of where, when or who it was made by. And regardless of what anyone else thinks.
I think I'll gou out and buy a couple Brass, ASM .44 cal '51 Navies just to aggravate a few people.

Wobble,

Fingers conveniently leaves out a few very important facts- his recommendation assumes a brass frame or soft steel frame gun, is going to shoot forever and never break. The fact is, a cheap gun with inferior metallurgy, doesn't last- they do break- quickly.

Ask Fingers if he'll fix these brass frame guns he's telling you to buy, for free, when they break- parts and labor, free shipping too.

Then ask him how much powder he puts in his "brassers". They can only handle 60% maximum loads- not exactly a great personal protection/hunting load. For that, you need full chambers.

The main reason arms mfrs. use improved materials/processes, it to make a stronger, more durable product- that lasts generations. For some reason Fingers doesn't get that.

I'm not the one blocking posts- so who's really aggravated ? The test of a real man, is being able to keep your composure, when another man confronts you, and disagrees with you. Pressure makes diamonds.

This is a technical discussion, we need to rely on facts, not emotions of what we "like". That's why I contacted Henry Arms, Colt, etc.- we need the facts, straight from the source.

Fingers recommendations on gun options, are akin to telling you, buy a Yugo or Vega if you like it- they start and go, how bad can they be ??...:rolleyes: I'm saying no, don't do that, they are junk and you'll regret it, they have a terrible service history record. They are a lemon.

Buy the best you can afford, not the worst- and do the research first. Then you'll have a gun that lasts for generations. Not a paperweight.

I just bought an 1860 stainless Army for $300. Fingers has my blessings, to buy up all the "1851 brassers" he can afford.:D

crstrode

May 29, 2009, 09:59 AM

Crazy Captain wrote:

the Colt Factory called me today.

What a load!

madcratebuilder

May 29, 2009, 12:20 PM

Crazy Captain, stop with the personal e-mails. I really don't care to argue who owned what when. I find it nessacary to apply my standard disclaimer.

Standard Disclaimer:
All answers are given assuming that the person giving the answer understood the question to begin with, which is a dubious prospect at best. In addition to knowing what you thought you asked, you now have the added responsibility of figuring out what you thought I said in this response. Keep in mind, this may or may not be what I thought I said, which I only have a fairly good clue of on a good day anyway.
All answers shown were prepared by a trained professional on a closed course. You should not attempt to give answers at home,
Incorrect answers can cause side effects. Side effects include nausea, shortness of breath, palpitations, headache, dry mouth, bloating and/or gas with oily discharge, increased bowel movements and the inability to control them. Erections lasting more than 4 hours are not normal, but they are a nice bonus and there is no extra charge, so be sure to call all your friends and brag. Side effects occurred in 1% of test subjects. If 99 of your friends feel fine, you are the one percent.
Answers can become habit forming and should only be used while under the care of a medical professional or answer abuse specialist.
Portions of this answer not affecting the final outcome have been edited.
Not available in all states. Void where prohibited. Batteries not included. Not drawn to scale
;)

Fingers McGee

May 29, 2009, 12:51 PM

Quote MCB
Crazy Captain, stop with the personal e-mails. I really don't care to argue who owned what when. I find it nessacary to apply my standard disclaimer.

MCB. :D Great disclaimer. Can I plagiarize it??? :D

I've found bliss in the ignore button. Helps keep the blood pressure down and doesnt aggravate the carpal tunnel due to much reduced keystokes in not formulating replies.

CaptainCrossman

May 29, 2009, 01:09 PM

Crazy Captain wrote:
Quote:
the Colt Factory called me today.
What a load!

Colt Blackpowder rep called me, and then referred me to the author Dennis Russell- who wrote 2nd Gen Price Guide/history

if you don't believe me, contact Mr. Russell

CaptainCrossman

May 29, 2009, 01:15 PM

Quote MCB
Quote:
Crazy Captain, stop with the personal e-mails. I really don't care to argue who owned what when. I find it nessacary to apply my standard disclaimer.
MCB. Great disclaimer. Can I plagiarize it???
I've found bliss in the ignore button. Helps keep the blood pressure down and doesnt aggravate the carpal tunnel due to much reduced keystokes in not formulating replies.

"nessacary" ?

I pulled this up to quote, the Firing Line forum spell checker went berserk, and started smoking...:D

yes, by all means, we'll take this above post/advice seriously, rather than Anthony Imperato, Val Forgett III, Dennis Russell, or Colt Blackpowder Rep.- any day...

after all, they only MADE the guns, and compiled the documentation...:rolleyes:

you actually...did...uh...er...wait a minute...nothing ?? well, you fellas "learned" them a thing or two anyway, didntcha.. (laughter...)

NOT !!!:D:D

crstrode

May 29, 2009, 02:13 PM

Crazy Captain wriote:

Colt Blackpowder rep called me

What is the name of the "Blackpowder Rep."?

Another 40 grain load of BS

Wobble

May 29, 2009, 02:16 PM

Captain, not sure where the dissertation on brass guns came from but I have no brass guns, don't want any, and will never buy one. I think Fingers was making a little joke.:D

In a review of my copy of "Colt Blackpowder Reproductions and Replicas" by Dennis Adler, there are no 2nd Gen or 3rd Gen BP Colts with brass frames unless they were 3rd Gens manufactured between 1995 and 2002, which are not covered by the book. My own 3rd Gens are steel. I also don't think Uberti currently makes any brass frame guns either, although some other Italian companies do. Some, however, are true reproductions of Confederate copies originally made with brass.

Hawg Haggen

May 29, 2009, 03:30 PM

Captain, not sure where the dissertation on brass guns came from but I have no brass guns, don't want any, and will never buy one. I think Fingers was making a little joke.

In a review of my copy of "Colt Blackpowder Reproductions and Replicas" by Dennis Adler, there are no 2nd Gen or 3rd Gen BP Colts with brass frames unless they were 3rd Gens manufactured between 1995 and 2002, which are not covered by the book. My own 3rd Gens are steel. I also don't think Uberti currently makes any brass frame guns either, although some other Italian companies do. Some, however, are true reproductions of Confederate copies originally made with brass.

Dunno what drivel the Capt. is spoutin now but Colt didn't make any brass frames. Brass frames are fine if you know their limitations. A .36 in a brass frame will handle max loads fine but a .44 in a brass frame won't. Probably one reason .44's were never offered in a brass frame.