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View Full Version : Good guy 1, Bad guy 0, CCW in action unedited


311unity13b
May 22, 2009, 09:11 PM
Not sure if this has been posted on the forum yet. But this is pretty intense:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AA_dgRdDhk&feature=related

Bud Helms
May 22, 2009, 11:29 PM
Let's get some opinions in Tactics & Training.

fastforty
May 22, 2009, 11:59 PM
I don't get any sound on the video, so I might be missing some important points. I couldn't see what the "bad guy" did, but I'll assume that he had a gun & was threatening with it. Kudos to the mom for having the where-with-all to get the heck out of the way, most people would have froze. As fast as the action took place, I guess the good guy could get off from a "shooting a fleeing suspect in the back" charge because he was trained to fire multiple fast shots until the threat was down & was firing as he turned away, or that the perp could have spun around at the door & returned fire. The good guy did look like he had good training and responded VERY well.

hoytinak
May 23, 2009, 12:07 AM
Yep, seen it before but it's still a good one. The CCW holder (shooter) was a NRA intructor and has had some good training. I think it was a good shoot, but from the video angle it looks as if he was firing a little close to the little girl, but the mother did a great job of getting outta the way...but then again from a different angle it might actually not be that close. All in all, I say good job on all parts.

Shadi Khalil
May 23, 2009, 12:44 AM
Looks to me like a fired at a fleeing suspect within feet of a Mother holoding her baby. Are we all watching the same video?

B. Lahey
May 23, 2009, 01:08 AM
It looked to me like the balaclava dude fired a shot right as the ninja guy cleared the lady at the cash register, and then he fired back as the badguy dipped sideways to make his escape.

It's all pretty much simultaneous. I'm not going to screech "bad shoot".

Does anyone have a link to a newsreport or otherwise know how this turned out? I didn't see any obvious injuries in the video, it looks like everyone avoided nasty flying metal things.

samurai30047
May 23, 2009, 01:17 AM
Good shoot

Nnobby45
May 23, 2009, 01:18 AM
As indicated, this is not new. What you can't, hear because of the lack of audio, is that Bubba came in shooting. The citizen/manager used his employeee for concealment while he accesses his weapon unnoticed by Bubba. Yet, another reason not to discrimminate against heavy set hotel employees:D .

I think the citizen was cognizant of how far he needed to move to get clear of Mom and her little one. It may look from our angle that he was shooting close to them but the only thing hit by bullets was Bubba.

Since Bubba had a gun in his hand and represented a danger, I don't think the citizen should have been required to wait and see if he was going to fire shots at them as he left, especially when he got to the door.

Rich Miranda
May 23, 2009, 02:26 AM
As for legality, it probably depends on jurisdiction. In some places, that would definitely be a good shoot.

As for the safety of the child, I think that the clerk is very careful about not shooting in her direction. It's very fast, but he only points the gun at where she "was" after the mother moves her over.

Some YouTubers make comments like "he almost killed the kid!", etc. As defenders we have to sometimes make tough calls on the fly. What if the clerk decided not to shoot because of the baby and the robber just starts shooting everyone in the head? Sometimes, in these situations, an innocent being wounded or killed is not only a possibility, but a necessity that will reduce the overall number of deaths. It's scary to have to admit that, but we don't create these situations, the bad guys do. (Of course, I'm not advocating sacrificing people, just stating the obvious.)

Some possible alternate outcomes:

1) Clerk decides not to engage, robber just shoots all of them with one shot to the head. All four dead.

2) Clerk engages, hitting the bad guy AND the baby, wounding him, killing her. One dead.

3) Clerk engages, misses all or most shots, and bad guy returns fire killing some or all of them.

There are endless other possibilities.

Based on the video as I see it, the clerk made some good, tough calls in just seconds, and made excellent use of the training he had previously acquired. I'm not inclined to second guess someone who, while staring down a barrel, manages to stealthily unholster his CCW and hit the bad guy with 100% of shots fired.

Bartholomew Roberts
May 23, 2009, 08:10 AM
This happened in Ohio in 2006. The clerk was an NRA Instructor as well as an active member at AR15.com and discussed the shooting in some detail. The Arfcom thread is archived now; but you can find snippets of that discussion here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=187561&highlight=Ohio+hotel+clerk) as well as an expired link to the Arfcom thread.

dipper
May 23, 2009, 11:47 AM
I can't tell exactly what happened by watching that video.

Just going by what I see on the video, I would question the shoot.

You see the bad guy come in, but I see no reaction from mom and baby that he ever fired a shot...they didn't startle or jump.
The video has no audio so maybe he was waving a firearm around and threatening to shoot everyone.
Maybe the BG raised his pistol to fire...just can't tell.

The mother COULD have reacted differently and moved INTO the line of fire by accident and sheer panic....either way, he fired past the mother and baby in very close proximity...he took a chance.

If ALL I had to go on was the Video posted here, I would question the reaction of shooter.

I would need a lot more information before calling it a good or bad shoot.

Creature
May 23, 2009, 12:06 PM
The mother COULD have reacted differently and moved INTO the line of fire by accident and sheer panic....either way, he fired past the mother and baby in very close proximity...he took a chance.
We "could" this one all day long. But in the end, a hit is a hit...and a miss is a miss. Good shoot based on that.

dipper
May 23, 2009, 12:17 PM
Whether a hit or miss, that is NOT the criteria for a good shoot....never has been.
The only thing that makes it a good or bad shoot is if the shooter is justified in using deadly force---that's it.
The second and third shots were very close to the mother and baby...in fact, if the mother froze and had not moved, it could have turned out differently.
Like I said, just from the video, I think it is hard to make a call.

2cooltoolz
May 23, 2009, 12:18 PM
Here is a link to the CCW guy posting about it. His link to the video set to music has apparently expired. His userid is "rooftop voter".

Word to the wise...the Site linked doesn't set the same high standards for language that we observe here.

Click Here. (http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?t=274058&highlight=rooftop+voter)

Nnobby45
May 23, 2009, 01:05 PM
You see the bad guy come in, but I see no reaction from mom and baby that he ever fired a shot...they didn't startle or jump.
The video has no audio so maybe he was waving a firearm around and threatening to shoot everyone.
Maybe the BG raised his pistol to fire...just can't tell.


As indicated, I saw the video before quite some time ago. It isn't new.

The robber came in shooting. As in "BANG"--he fired his gun. Had he not fired a shot, the gun in his hand displayed his intent whether he was waving it or not. Having already fired his gun, the citizen was correct, IMO, not to wait for him to fire it again, and the fact that he was headed for the door did not preclude him in the least from firing--AGAIN-- as he fled.

As for tactics, the citizen wisely used his clerk to cover his draw, got her out of there, moved far enough away from the innocents to expose his target, fired until the threat went down and then he stopped firing. He then ordered his clerk to call 911.

And don't forget another important tactic. Hitting the target--fast and often.
Every one of us should hope that we could handle a situation as well as he did. Perfect? Perhaps not, but what shooting is?

While most on the board are generally supportive of the clerks' actions, we're still taking many thousands of seconds (between us) to second guess what he had mere seconds to decide, and the lack of audio hides the effect of Bubba's shot firing grand entrance that instantly changed the dynamics of the robbery. In retrospect, that shot that alerted the armed citizen may have been a disguised blessing.

dipper
May 23, 2009, 01:20 PM
Nnobby45, I just read what the actual shooter had to say at the link posted by
2Cool in post #14.

Shooter says the BG DID NOT FIRE his revolver...he did not come in shooting but raised his weapon AFTER the shooter pulled his.

Again, not saying it was a bad shoot....but we should get all the facts straight to discuss this properly.

Creature
May 23, 2009, 06:09 PM
any person who demands my money while holding a gun probably isnt selling cookies.

Nnobby45
May 23, 2009, 06:24 PM
Nnobby45, I just read what the actual shooter had to say at the link posted by
2Cool in post #14.

Shooter says the BG DID NOT FIRE his revolver...he did not come in shooting but raised his weapon AFTER the shooter pulled his.



Apparently the error is mine, but that was the one detail I thought I remembered, except for him using the clerk for coceallment. My oppologies. My vivid recollection remains a mystery--maybe confused it with another similar innci:odent.

Nnobby45
May 23, 2009, 06:26 PM
Nnobby45, I just read what the actual shooter had to say at the link posted by
2Cool in post #14.

Shooter says the BG DID NOT FIRE his revolver...he did not come in shooting but raised his weapon AFTER the shooter pulled his.



Apparently the error is mine, but that was the one detail I thought I remembered, except for him using the clerk for concealment. My oppologies. My vivid recollection remains a mystery--maybe confused it with another similar inncident.:o I'd better go have a Red Bull.

djohn
May 23, 2009, 06:43 PM
IMO the only tatical point I see in this shoot was he used the laddy at the register as a human shield why he open fired over her right shoulder,if you want to call that tactical. Sending bullets by a mother and child looked to close for comfort to me.Did he even hit the perp at all.Some might disagree with me but IMO it looks of a reckless shoot and he is very very lucky he did hit the child.

BobR
May 23, 2009, 07:33 PM
Some might disagree with me but IMO it looks of a reckless shoot and he is very very lucky he did hit the child.

Well, that is probably because you have only seen the video and not read the accounts of the shooter anywhere.

Bottom line is that a guy came into the hotel waving a pistol. He got shot, survived and went to jail for 7 years.

Angle of the cam makes the woman and child look much closer than they were.

Cops were happy, and I would guess the DA was also becasude nothing happened to the shooter.

gunsnet.net, an AK 47 board still has some threads on it.

Here is one, but in true AK47 fasion it veers and gets profanes in parts. But it does have some of what happened that night straight from the horses mouth.

http://gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?t=260037&highlight=rooftop+voter+video+shooting

bob

bbqbob51
May 23, 2009, 11:51 PM
I wonder if the kid suffered any hearing damage, that had to be VERY loud that close. Still it's good to see that scum be thwarted.

GojuBrian
May 24, 2009, 12:10 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhZKvtOy6Vw&feature=related

Shadi Khalil
May 24, 2009, 12:37 AM
Ok, I read the accounts from as far as we know is the shooter. From what he says the angle of the camera makes it hard to see he is not very close to the baby. Also, the gunman can not be seen when he points his gun at the shooter. I guess I spoke before I has any good info. My bad.

As for the question about hearing loss, the shooter says he didnt notice the noise from his gun, a G27.

Shadi Khalil
May 24, 2009, 12:38 AM
Goju, I hope you know thats fake.

Brit
May 24, 2009, 09:59 AM
Strange what you notice... on his third, and last shot, no follow through, he (the good guy shooter) abruptly pulled the pistol back to his chest, quite possibly affecting that last shots accuracy, a habit a few of my students have picked up.

Bulls eye shooters develop follow through, the good ones.

The above was what you notice from the eye of a fellow shooter/instructor.

His tactics, well executed, lock up and focus real good, and what can not speak, can not lie, THREE SHOTS-THREE HITS! And no hits on the other individuals in the office.

When a person is holding a gun in this instance, they are a instant target, instant! You have no control of their hand or brain! None, turn wrist, press trigger, bullet leaves gun... a second, half a second?

Your only recourse, the control factor you have, fire rapid aimed shots, which he did, and bad guy down, bad guy in jail, good results.

Shot in the back? nose? or big toe? Who cares, at any time a criminal is holding a gun, he can fire it! Solution, like our night employee did, shoot quick accurate shots. Two hands, two eyes, all hits.

Creature
May 24, 2009, 03:11 PM
Shot in the back? nose? or big toe? Who cares, at any time a criminal is holding a gun, he can fire it! Solution, like our night employee did, shoot quick accurate shots. Two hands, two eyes, all hits.

Bingo.

= good shoot.

cloud8a
June 8, 2009, 01:34 AM
WOW! that is really scary. No matter how close or far away that little girl is it is a painful thing to deal with.

The shooter is a responsible trained CCW owner. The bad guy is a reckless, dangerous BG with a deadly weapon on who knows what committing a felony right next to a mother and child. Forget about the money. The shooter was protecting innocent life. I bet he knew that.

A ricochet could have killed the child, the mother, the female clerk, the shooter, a guy across the street, or a person asleep in one of the rooms. If the clerk did not open fire or have a gun the BG could have killed whoever he wanted however he wanted.

erwos
June 8, 2009, 08:15 AM
Well, assuming the angle isn't as bad as it looks, the only other thing I might complain about there is that it looks like he put a whole bunch of rounds through the glass. It might have been less than pleasant to be in that parking lot...

hsccox
June 21, 2009, 10:26 PM
Might, could, should, would,...Lordy .:barf:

johnwilliamson062
June 22, 2009, 08:47 AM
Legally:
Pretty sure that would be legal in my jurisdiction and in fact all of Ohio with very little question. I also question what happened to the baby's hearing, and the mothers. They were certainly in a location where the muzzle report would be very loud and they likely would not have "tunneled" like the shooter did, as they were likely unaware of what was going on.

Safety:
I have scanned through the links provided and have seen nowhere that the robber shot before the hotel employee, although some have claimed to see dust falling from the ceiling prior to the employee opening fire. If the robber did open fire, even into the ceiling I have absolutely no problem with the hotel employees actions.
Otherwise:
There was recently a video posted here with an instructor standing between two silhouettes taking pictures as his students did a live fire drill, a somewhat controlled circumstance. I would say he was as far from the vector of those shots as the baby was in this video. His behavior was universally condemned as being unsafe and generally idiotic.
In SD the need to shoot obviously far exceeds the need to shoot in a live fire exercise, but so do the preponderance of variables. What if the woman holding the baby, who I will assume has no training or experience, or at least any known to the shooter, had moved the wrong direction. Maybe they were "old buddies from Nam" and the shooter knew she had BTDT and would react correctly. Without the baby I would feel very comfortable with the way that unfolded. If he had moved to his right more drastically as he fired I would feel more comfortable, although this obviously introduces tripping and is going to make his shooting platform less stable.
I disagree with some others in that i believe that in a robbery such as this the perpetrator holding a gun does not necessarily mean you should take action. There are many cases where the robber has no intent to use the gun and there is no real reason in my mind to escalate it when there is a third party in between you and the shooter. Without the hotel employee firing in this case I very seriously doubt anyone would have been hurt and there would have been much less risk to the woman and baby, who I assume are his customers.

I find it very possible I would have done the some(or attempted to) in the same situation, but I probably would have thought, "wow, that was really dumb later." Split second decision his choices were certainly within the spectrum of reasonable and responsible. Like most things, he pulled it off, so he gets a pass on the shoot. I find some of the supposed shooters posts after the fact to be a little tasteless, especially his post with a link to the edited video, and for that I will judge him.