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JohnH1963
May 18, 2009, 12:30 AM
Is it better to play the hero or be a "good witness"? In many of these active shooter scenarios, I honestly would rather play the hero engaging them with direct fire. I believe that waiting around for a tactical swat team to arrive only increases the chances that I or another person would get hurt or killed.

R1145
May 18, 2009, 02:19 AM
How's that for a useless platitude?

Seriously, the question is flawed: It's not an either/or proposition. Also, "hero" is a loaded word with emotional baggage attached.

Every situation is different. If you can help, get involved, but use restraint. Take action to defend life, otherwise call the authorities and report information.

The Golden Rule is a pretty good guide.

"Being a hero is about the shortest lived profession there is." Will Rogers

scottaschultz
May 18, 2009, 04:55 AM
Many years ago I had a job (not security related) that required security clearance at our airport. In order to get this clearance, I had to go through a training class with the airport police department to make sure I understood the rules.

One of the people in the class asked the instructor, "What if someone comes up behind you and threatens you with bodily harm unless you open the door to a secure area?"

Of course the answer was, "OPEN THE DOOR!"

The instructor then imparted these wise words to us...

The Army's motto is "Be All You Can Be", but as a vendor doing business at the airport, your motto is "Be All They Pay You To Be!" In other words, do NOT be a hero. Its not your job to put yourself in the line of danger.

Scott

Bob F.
May 18, 2009, 07:37 AM
Post #2 & #3 are both right on. Every scenario is fluid/dynamic. Trust your instincts! Are you gonna wait until the BG actually starts shooting? But many incidents are not what they seem.....................

Stay safe.
Bob

PoorSoulInJersey
May 18, 2009, 07:46 AM
The big question before you take any action: can you make a difference?

If you shoot at him, fail to stop him, and just become victim #4 (aka, the "Guy in the Red Shirt" to Star Trek fans), you didn't accomplish anything other than making yourself feel better (for a couple seconds).

If you are going to engage, make sure you have tactical advantage and don't endanger anyone else. How would you feel if you shot him and two other people standing beyond him?

If you can make a difference, then make it.
If you can't make a difference, then be a good witness.

Ed K
May 18, 2009, 09:22 AM
I have first
hand experience on this with 2 eppisodes both bank robries. I walked into my bank with my dog very large trained Mamamute I realized a robery was in progress saw guy with gun he saw me and dog I turned walked out he made no effort to stop me. Me and my dog got out alive it could have been different.
Second was in Rome Italy my wife and I walked in on bank robery perp was on way out she got thru door then it locked because I'm in door with cameras and metal dectors locked doors, he grabs my wife and her Uncle trying to get out I'm screaming in American b/g is screaming in Italian I'm gonna kill this SOB finnally some one tells this b/g let go of my wife and he'll get out of doorway I.m thinking how good my Nikon will look embeded in this guys head B/G comes out I move another B/G comes out other door 2 more pull up on motor bikes I freeze rethink my options it's not my money every one is safe I'm no hero but a very smart guy still here

djohn
May 18, 2009, 10:10 AM
No gun fire, then don't draw a weapon and be the aggressor.Do as they say let them have they money its federally insured you will not lose a dime.



All the bank robberies that happened in recent yrs in CT have not resulted in shootings or dealth within the bank,at least I am not aware of.


Why because they did what they asked and left with out incident and then the police handled it from that point on.


If you try to play a hero by drawing a weapon when no shots are fired,Its almost certain you will start the gun fight and perhaps be the cause of lives and or your own.


IMO that makes you the aggressor and not a hero.

Glenn E. Meyer
May 18, 2009, 10:25 AM
Question is way to simplistic. Are you talking about being in the actual fire zone or running to the sound of cannons?

You might search for a post here by Chindo18Z on how some guy almost got killed charging to the fight.

Keltyke
May 18, 2009, 10:28 AM
Is it better to play the hero or be a "good witness"?

You could end up being a dead hero, too. Hero really isn't a good word in that instance. Remember, you are only allowed to draw and fire if you feel yourself to be in imminent mortal danger. You're not carrying to prevent robberies. Most states have a "third party defense" clause (look it up for your state), but that's walking a fine line and you could find yourself hung out to dry.

It depends entirely in the specific situation (you don't state what it is) and you gotta do what you gotta do.

Remember, the only good gunfight is one that never happens.

KingEdward
May 18, 2009, 10:37 AM
quote: "I believe that waiting around for a tactical swat team to arrive only increases the chances that I or another person would get hurt or killed".

It may be that you are talking about something pretty intense if a swat team is en route. If armed, there are so many variables that as others have mentioned, each situation is fluid.

My simple view is first things first. Which means observe and try to get descriptions, license tags, etc. Be a good witness. Now if this cannot be done without finding cover (due to agressor) then it can turn into fight or flee very quickly. Self preservation may take over and it may involve one shooting as a third party.

Making a decision to shoot at someone (not in my home as a threat and not directly assaulting me or spouse on "the street"), that is a tough call. Maybe one of the toughest.

MUCHO liability for me and my household if I make a wrong decision or a bad shot.

Mr. James
May 18, 2009, 12:38 PM
And remember, Monte, Door No. 1, Live Hero, or Door No. 2, Dead Hero, aren't the only possibilities.

If you mis-interpret the situation and the players, you might just find yourself the villain (Live, Dead, or just Maimed) of the piece.

fixxervi6
May 18, 2009, 12:59 PM
Too broad of a question, but the way I always tell my friends is,

My life isn't worth risking for 711's money, if someone is holding the place up I'll get in line and play, no reason whatsoever to put myself or bystanders at risk over something as simple as money.

Now, if he comes in blasting or shoots someone or something like that the situation has now escelated.

p99guy
May 18, 2009, 02:00 PM
The thing is, from experiance...in all but rare cases you will not be able to tell the good guys from the bad if you walk into a mutual exchange of gunfire.
That is why responding Police treat every one as bad guys when they get there(till things get sorted out) And BG's hardly work alone anymore....and thier "backup" may purposely look like a bystander woman(till they shoot you)

Now if they are herding everybody(and you) into the back of the store to kill witnesses, you feel free to open fire.....better to go out trying than down on your knees with a bullet to the back of your head....may the spirits of Norse Viking Berzerkers be with you during the bout.

markj
May 18, 2009, 03:58 PM
I think being a good witness is being a hero. Dead you are only good for feeding the plants. A CCW isnt a ticket to go shoot someone. Get some trainig then think about it. Cops get killed doing this stuff and they have some fine training. and equipment. Not just a CCW and a gun.

BikerRN
May 18, 2009, 04:54 PM
The thing is, from experiance...in all but rare cases you will not be able to tell the good guys from the bad if you walk into a mutual exchange of gunfire.
That is why responding Police treat every one as bad guys when they get there(till things get sorted out) And BG's hardly work alone anymore....and thier "backup" may purposely look like a bystander woman(till they shoot you)

I look like a "dirtbag" off duty.

Guess what, I'm one of the good guys. :) My biggest fear is getting shot off duty by the responding on duty LEO's.

Things aren't always what they seem and unless you are 100% positive of what's going on you would be better served to be a good witness and provide vital and necessary information.

Now, let's say you see me holding someone at gunpoint, unlikely but possible, as I don't get involved in gunplay off duty if it can avoided. OK, so here you are, walking down the sidewalk and see an unkempt long haired, looks like a "tweaker" dirtbag holding a gun on a guy in a shirt and tie.

The situation developed too fast for me to do anything but place the individual on the ground and draw my gun. Now, before I can issue verbal commands and identify myself, here you are. You would probably think I'm going to shoot the individual in the tie, and I may if that person commits certain actions that place me in fear of my life, or the life of a third party.

Guess what HERO, the "tweaker" looking individual is an off duty LEO.

THINGS ARE NOT ALWAYS WHAT THEY SEEM!

So, unless you are 100% certain of what is going on, you are better off reporting whom/what you see and hear. My life may depend upon it, as might your's. There's no guarantee that I will go home every night alive, but by God I will do what I have to do to try and make that happen. If that means not getting involved off duty, so be it.

Biker

5whiskey
May 18, 2009, 05:11 PM
I would like to reflect the general sentiment here. Unless you know the circumstances that you are dealing with, have a tactical advantage, are reasonably sure you will not do more harm than good, and if it will save human lives... well then in those cases, and only ones that meet all of the criteria, I would consider intervening.

If you ARE in the fire zone and you still don't know the circumstances, then get down/get out unless it is not possible in any way. If you shoot a cop or some other good guy, even though you did not know it at the time, then the odds say you will most likely be in serious do-do and lumped in with the Bad guys. There may be no good guy, they may both be bad guys... black and white these things many a time aint. Only respond unless it meets criteria for a SD scenario (your life is legitametly in danger from a person)

If you ARE NOT in the fire zone but you are 100% sure of the circumstance, and you could save a life/lives, and you have a tactical advantage... well then MAYBE you could consider intervening. You better know what the deal is before you get your gun off, though.




I am actually a very big believer in doing the right thing. I believe if we are too paranoid over our personal/legal safety to do the right thing, then we'll have to answer for the good things we didn't do one day. That's not to say that you should be trigger happy. The chances of actually getting the opportunity to use force to do some good that would be justified is 1 in 100k or something. You need to make sure you do it right.

David Armstrong
May 18, 2009, 05:42 PM
There is a pretty good reason virtually every business, LE organization, security outfit, and safety consulting organization says forget about being a hero, just sit back and be a good witness. Certainly every situation differs, but that should probably be the default position for most.

PhoenixConflagration
May 18, 2009, 05:47 PM
The OP mentioned an active shooter scenario, so I'll play to that. I have no desire to end up dead, nor do I discount the possibility that when it goes down, I'll $#!* myself and run (no one likes to think they would, but if you haven't been there, who knows how you'll react). Barring that, if someone is just plugging any target they can get in their sights, I don't feel as though I could just sit by and do nothing about it. I have an overinflated sense of righteous indignation, and while I've always tempered it with reason and moderation, in a situation like this it may just get the better of me.

All one can really say is, "I hope I do the right thing for the situation, whatever that may be."

ECHOONE
May 19, 2009, 07:58 AM
I have to just shake my head at these people who want and need to fulfill there life by becoming a HERO! Getting a concealed carry permit does in no way make you a LEO, it's not your job and most don't have the slightest bit of training to know how to handle such a situation! If your life is ultimately on the line or someone else's, MAybe if you are very very sure it won't cause a more severe threat in doing so, In most cases your the Hero by remembering as much intel as possible for the police!
Seems like some just are dying to pull the trigger on a BG, A little advice if, God Forbid you find yourself having to take another person's life, even if it's a BG, Don't think for one minute that for a long long time your not going to be effected by the image and picture of killing someone haunting you in your dreams! Live with that for a year then decide if your ready to be a so called HERO! It's not the glorious scenerio most think it is, LEO's have problems with it, Soldiers have problems with it, You think you won't! one misplaced rd and you'll be sitting in jail! The only true Hero's are the guys that didn't come back!

KCabbage
May 19, 2009, 08:05 AM
Don't "play" hero. Be yourself and do what's right(good).

--Another thing, when I was young I was in a a few life or death incidents and I would have loved someone to be there for me. So whenever I see someone in desperate need of help i'm there!

OldMarksman
May 19, 2009, 08:41 AM
In many of these active shooter scenarios, I honestly would rather play the hero engaging them with direct fire.

Well, I had to look up "active shooter scenarios" to see just what the heck this is about.

Every reference I can find has to do with law enforcement or SWAT team training or training for campus security organizations.

That says to me we're talking about trained, indemnified, sworn officers acting as teams.

I'm not trained, I'm not indemnified, I'm not sworn, and I am one person.

And I'm not stupid.

Nor do I engage in fantasies about gunfights. My gun is for use as a last resort, period. I do not see my CCW endorsement as a kind of badge that confers upon me police powers.

Nor am I under the impression that if I try "engaging them with direct fire" that I will necessarily be regarded as a "hero." Where I live I have the duty to retreat, and if I injure or kill a bystander, it will not be the community that makes them whole--that will be done at my expense, as will my defense.

To me it's a complete no-brainer.

I really think ECHOONE has it right in every respect.

djohn
May 19, 2009, 08:53 AM
My buddy got hit on his custom Harley Davidson by a small pick up truck.The guy was drunk as a skunk driving the truck.


My buddy had a broking leg and Hip and the bike was on top of him,he was stuck under it.


A gentlemen or he calls a guardian angle came out of the blue and pulled him out from under the bike to safety.Shortly after the bike caught fire,it bursted into flames.


The gentleman disapeared in the crowds,the funny thing is not one witeness remembers seeing Him or what he looked like.know thats a hero in my book.




IMO getting into a gun battle is not being a hero unless you absolutley took out a BG that was just on a shooting spree and have prevented other casualty.

scottaschultz
May 19, 2009, 09:01 AM
And if you are really that serious about engaging with active shooters, why not join the Army? They will train you on the proper use of a wide variety of firearms, even fully automatic ones! Way cool, eh? And after basic training, I am sure they can be very accommodating when it comes to shipping you off to a place where you can almost be assured that you will be engaging active shooters. And unlike being a civilian, you will actually get paid for the privilege of being shot at!

Scott

Keltyke
May 19, 2009, 01:00 PM
If you shoot - you life WILL be forever changed.

You may be disarmed, handcuffed, and even spend some time in jail until the cops get the situation sorted out. You will be interrogated. You WILL need to hire a lawyer.

If there's anything slightly off center about the shooting, you will be charged and may have to stand a criminal trial. You stand to lose your right to own guns. If you're convicted, you may spend prison time - away from your family and loved ones.

You will probably be civilly sued by the BG or his family. Even if you're found innocent of criminal charges, a civil lawsuit can be won by "a preponderance of the evidence". 50.1% does it there. You could lose everything you own.

You will become famous instantly. Your name, if not your picture, will be published in every local paper. Your friends may shun you. Even your family may not understand. Some people may even hate you. You may see and hear mailed and verbal threats.

You will probably relive the scene again and again in your mind. You may have nightmares about it. I've never shot anyone and frankly, I don't want to think what it would be like. It may affect your emotions and personality. It's called post-traumatic stress syndrome. It's very real and very incapacitating. You may need medical or psychiatric treatment. Your family will have to live with you as a changed person.

If you draw your weapon and don't succeed, you may die or be maimed for life. Your family will have go on without you.

Now, I've outlined some worst-case items, but think it over...is it worth it?

I'll shoot to protect my life or my family's lives, or another person's life. Make no mistake about that. I won't shoot to protect another's property or money.

scottaschultz
May 19, 2009, 01:16 PM
You will probably be civilly sued by the BG or his family.The only exception to this might be if you shot someone in your home. Many "castle laws" have a provision that state that IF you are found to be criminally innocent of the shooting, the "victim" or his family can not bring a civil suit against you. If you shoot someone away from your home, its a whole different ballgame.

But still, this follows being legally cleared, and this can be a lengthy and expen$$$ive process. And even if you are found to be in the right, the sheriff or chief of police will NOT thank you for doing their job for them by taking another BG off the streets. The mayor will NOT give you the key to the city or a medal of honor. John Walsh will NOT come to your house and feature you on AMW and give you an award for bravery.

As I have said in other threads, "Dead is forever!"

Scott

fixxervi6
May 19, 2009, 01:22 PM
The safety in the PT 1911's is my main issue with them, Taurus has released a high capacity 1911 .45, to me this would make a great woods gun as in its cheaper and higher capacity. Wouldn't worry as much about scratching it bu the safety design takes it off my list.

Don't get me wrong, there are 4 taurus's in my house along wth Kimbers and Rugers and I find them to be reliable etc, but that saftey design takes it off my list for anythingother than a range gun.

AHHH MOD HELP

NOt sure how this posted here I meant to post this in another thread, please remove.

anythingshiny
May 19, 2009, 02:00 PM
a friend and his wife were recently dining out. while seated and enjoying a meal, a man entered and started a ruckus and started waving a gun. the gentleman, active duty and just back from the sandbox, id'd the threat, made sure there were no others around, drew to 'covert ready' ( essentially muzzle down and held near your rump behind you) and directed others toward cover.

the guy waved the gun around but mainly pointed it at his own head and raved a bit.

now i GUARANTEE my friend was WAY more than capable of putting one thru the guys eyeball at 25yards while blindfolded...but he had cover and the guy was not directly threatening anyone. he was prepared to act..but the guy yelled a bit, pointed at his head and then made off to his car.

ability and opportunity...but no intent.

cops called, bad guy identified and dinner finished.

pretty cool cumcumber and in the end everyone went home safe.

FF/EMT
May 24, 2009, 10:31 PM
Ya, it's a big Q. Every situations different. It's like EMT school, in a perfect world, here's how you treat an overdose. But, not one call's the same.

Now if I see a guy with a weapon to someones head and I have a close, easy, clear shot. Ya, I would take it. Even if I could maybe knock him with something, I would still rather remove another piece of scum from the earth.

txbirddog
May 25, 2009, 03:32 PM
Maybe topic should have been: Engage Shooter or Be A Witness

Have to have many more parameters.

Echoone said, God Forbid you find yourself having to take another person's life, even if it's a BG, Don't think for one minute that for a long long time your not going to be effected by the image and picture of killing someone haunting you in your dreams!

Being a witness to the shooting of one or more, will also haunt you for a long time to come.

Many have expressed that they are not trained to deal with it. Maybe you should get training!!! Just because you have CHL doesn't mean shooting paper targets coorelates to a shooter situation. Training could save your life and possibly others.

There is a pretty good reason virtually every business, LE organization, security outfit, and safety consulting organization says forget about being a hero, just sit back and be a good witness.

Yeah, detective I saw the guy in the ski mask and the gun, shoot the teller. He then shot the lady and the little girl in the stroller standing in line next to him. He then shot the man in line behind him. He used 2 rounds in each of the first three victims and 4 in the next one. He then reloaded and got his money from the next teller. On his way out of the bank, he shot the security guard, once in the head and once in the chest. He was wearing a red Nike sweatshirt, black jeans and tennis shoes. He was between 6' and 6'4" and weighed maybe 200 to 250#'s.

I wonder how many of those organizations would want you to "just sit back and be a good witness.", if one or more of the above victims were their loved ones.

See, it truly depends ENTIRELY on the situation.

Glenn E. Meyer
May 25, 2009, 03:38 PM
Interesting motivational comment:

I would still rather remove some scum from the Earth.

----- Now, isn't our goal to prevent loss of life and/or grievous bodily harm rather than being a self-appointed executioneer?

Such attitudes might come back to haunt one - esp. when found on the Internet. Tsk.

One argument against CCW was that some folks would see themselves in this light. Luckily most folks don't.

raimius
May 25, 2009, 11:41 PM
Never "play" the hero. It's a good way to wake up one day and discover you are no longer amongst the living! :eek:

It's a judgement call. Can you intervene safely? If not, are you increasing or decreasing the level of risk for all the innocents involved? (or for the BGs, but I usually leave concern for their well-being out of the SD hypotheticals) In other words, are your chances of success good? If no, you might be better off making a quick exit/hasty barrier (and that might go for everyone else too!)

For most active shooter cases, the key to ending the threat/reducing casualties is introducing armed resistance as fast as possible. In that case, I'd say the odds favor intervening (if choosing between counter-attack and being a witness). Personally, I'd say the best options would be a HASTY exit or a counter-attack. It's hard to be a victim when there are 3 concrete walls between you and the shooter! Then, there is the emotional/moral aspect. Personally, I despise the thought of knowing I could have helped but chose to safely exit while leaving others with the threat. That's just me. I'd rather try to stop the guy and risk my own health than not (that is very dependent on exact circumstances and my estimations for likelihood of success--I'm probably not going to run into the building!)

Ian0351
May 26, 2009, 12:09 AM
I am also curious about the OPs use of the word 'play'... The only playing I do with bullets is "Call of Duty". That being said, I think the after-effects of watching innocent people get murdered and not doing anything about it would be worse than the after-effects of dispatching an cold-blooded killer.

FWIW: Approximately 20% of all Americans suffer from some sort of mental illness, including PTSD; approximately 20% of all returning combat troops suffer from PTSD, Depression or anxiety. Statistically speaking, about 1/5 of all people are pre-disposed to mental instability, and will suffer PTSD if exposed to traumatic situations, the rest will utilize healthy coping skills and find peace with his/her actions

My pedigree for this point of view is my 8 years in uniformed service, including combat service in Afghanistan, and my 6 years of working in mental health including emergent involuntary inpatient work with Iraq veterans.

I would be interested to hear Glenn's take on this, he is certainly better educated in the fine art of psychology than I am.

David Armstrong
May 26, 2009, 12:26 AM
I wonder how many of those organizations would want you to "just sit back and be a good witness.", if one or more of the above victims were their loved ones.
All of them. One of the really neat things about good advice is that it doesn't change based on who the participants are.

Glenn E. Meyer
May 26, 2009, 09:43 AM
Ian - interesting question. There is a fair bit of work on PTSD after being a crime victim and for police after shooting someone. However, I don't know of differential effects of being able to help, or feeling one should (even if you couldn't) and great stress effects.

I'll ask around.

Glenn

Glenn E. Meyer
May 26, 2009, 10:41 AM
So here's a take on it from my colleague (a stress expert and ok on guns).

1. Guilt about inaction is probably not a predictor of getting a stress disorder. Other things and factors predict your vulnerability.

2. However, you do get a stress disorder from an incident and feel guilty, that adds a different flavor to treatment. Exposure therapies work better with stress disorders to deal with the incident itself. However, dealing with guilt would probably add the need for some cognitive restructuring to deal with that added part.

Note - this is not therapuetic advice for anyone but a statement of what is in the literature. YMMV.

GEM

txbirddog
May 26, 2009, 09:33 PM
I wonder how many of those organizations would want you to "just sit back and be a good witness.", if one or more of the above victims were their loved ones.

All of them. One of the really neat things about good advice is that it doesn't change based on who the participants are.

David,

Just so I really get the "good advice", I should watch your wife and child be shot and you would want me to do nothing?

If they are mine and you are able, please put an end to the BG so mine can come home.

Deaf Smith
May 26, 2009, 10:07 PM
Is it better to play the hero or be a "good witness"? In many of these active shooter scenarios, I honestly would rather play the hero engaging them with direct fire. I believe that waiting around for a tactical swat team to arrive only increases the chances that I or another person would get hurt or killed.

John,

Skip the hero biz. The question should be, "Do I try to stop them or observe and get as good descriptions as I can?"

If it's an active shooter, someone who is going about killing people and probably won't stop till they run out of ammo or are killed, then if you can try to stop them,, do it! If you think you can't, then don't.

If it's a simple robbery, you might very well want to just get a good description of you can unless what they do goes past a line you have defined as unacceptable, like herding you into a back room and telling you to lie down.

But what you don't want to do is stand there and start thinking, "To be, or not to be"....

scottaschultz
May 26, 2009, 10:25 PM
Is it better to play the hero or be a "good witness"?
If you have a clear shot at the BG and can save lives, of course that is what you should do. I think what has some people here concerned is the OP's motivation. If you are going to "engage an active shooter", do it for your love of humanity, not because you want to be grab the headlines and be a hero!

Scott

David Armstrong
May 27, 2009, 05:39 PM
Just so I really get the "good advice", I should watch your wife and child be shot and you would want me to do nothing?
That is up to you. The question was if any of the organizations would want you to "just sit back and be a good witness.", if one or more of the above victims were their loved ones.
If they are mine and you are able, please put an end to the BG so mine can come home.
Just out of curiosity, if I try to put an end to the BG and and it causes yours to be shot and killed, will you still say it was a good thing to do?

Tucker 1371
May 27, 2009, 05:48 PM
While I hope to God I am never put in this situation I know exactly what I will do if I am. I will go with my gut.

It's been my short life's experience that every time I check myself or second guess myself I end up regretting it. That's why I don't do it anymore. If my gut says "shoot", I will shoot. If my gut says "stand down" I will stand down. For me it is as simple as that and it should be so for everyone else, as none of us can truly know what we will do or how we will do it until we have actually been there.

txbirddog
May 27, 2009, 08:52 PM
If they are mine and you are able, please put an end to the BG so mine can come home.

Just out of curiosity, if I try to put an end to the BG and and it causes yours to be shot and killed, will you still say it was a good thing to do?

Yes sir, I would rather have it by your hand trying to save their lives as opposed to a POS BG who wants only to end it. I would look at you just like a surgeon that couldn't save them, or as someone who did CPR and did not prevent their death, but did do THEIR BEST. To me, that is all anyone can ask of another person.

ilbob
May 28, 2009, 09:59 AM
There is no way anyone else can tell you what is right in a hypothetical situation.

As a private citizen, you have a primary duty to take care of yourself and your family. Putting yourself in unnecessary danger is a violation of that primary duty.

You do have some moral responsibility to other people though, and its possible at some point that responsibility might outweigh the responsibility you have to yourself and your family. Where that line is drawn is strictly an individual decision.

If the situation dictates, you may be in a position where danger to yourself or your family forces you to take appropriate action. Its an easy decision to protect yourself or your family.

If it is solely about property, stay out of it. That is also an easy decision.

If there is an almost certainty that an innocent third party will die if you do nothing, you have to make a hard choice very quickly. Its better if you give that choice some consideration up front rather than waiting for it to happen.

MTMilitiaman
May 29, 2009, 01:27 AM
I'll admit I've run through the scenarios in my mind and had a good deal of fun imagining playing the hero. But when it comes right down to it, fantasies aside, the reality of the matter is that I am not in a hurry to do anything that is going to draw gunfire in my direction. If I can find cover or leave the area, that is a much safer and saner option, IMO.

Call me a coward, but if I can avoid being a target and avoid future legal scrutiny, I am going to. Not playing the hero means I don't have to explain to a jury why I had a semi-automatic rifle in my truck, why I was so willing to be Rambo, and also reduces the chance that one of my rounds kills or injures an innocent bystander to exactly 0%.

Plus, from both a legal and ethical standpoint, anytime there is doubt in your mind as to whether you should shoot, you probably shouldn't be shooting.

Now if I find myself in the crossfire, then things have already gone terribly wrong. In that case, I will absolutely return fire.

Ian0351
May 29, 2009, 02:04 AM
Plus, from both a legal and ethical standpoint, anytime there is doubt in your mind as to whether you should shoot, you probably shouldn't be shooting.

And if there is no doubt, Fire when ready.

cloud8a
May 29, 2009, 03:10 AM
The one thing i decided when carrying was that i had given myself more responsibility.

Now that I carry I must be passive. A guy flips me off on the road, I smile and wave and mouth sorry for whatever it was i did.

It helps filtering the true bad guys. If someone cusses you on the road or on the street. Whatever.

The real bad guy will take it to the next step. running you off the road and coming at you putting you in a corner. Let the bad guy write his own fate.

When you know at the end of the line is a bullet from your gun fired into the body of someone who decided to attack you, you should be more secure in life.

B.N.Real
May 31, 2009, 10:54 AM
If I was armed and there was a guy pointing a gun at someone,obviously trying to rob them,I would feel that I did not do what was right if that robber killed the person right in front of me.

That said,I would not pull my gun and try to reason with that robber.

I don't like getting shot.

The rest is for what happens if it ever happens.

VA9mm
June 3, 2009, 10:15 PM
Here is something you can read about being the "hero."
http://www.stoppingpower.net/commentary/comm_dangers_in_intervention.asp