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View Full Version : A "Distraction Blow". What is this bull scat?


Dust Monkey
May 16, 2009, 09:25 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,520379,00.html

A distraction blow? Now I admit, I have been out of LE since 1998. In all the training I have received as a peace officer, never have I even heard of this term. If you have to use physical force, fine as long as you can justify it. From this article it seems this officer can read the subjects thoughts to know he is about to do something.

Me, well my BS detector is lighting up. The kick to the head is excessive force, plain and simple. This distraction blow crap is a neat way to CYA.

Now. I do not want this to become a bash all cops thread. Let's discuss this incident, this officers actions, and this "new" training method of the distraction blow.

Dragon55
May 16, 2009, 09:45 AM
Yes, this definitely BS. If this officer is representative of the training he has received I can say it is very sad indeed. Obviously he only needed to place a knee in his back and cuff him. Crap like this is what makes it so hard on well trained police that do have a clue.

vranasaurus
May 16, 2009, 09:58 AM
You don't kick someone in the head to distract them and if he was trained that way that department needs to look at their policies and procedures.

madmo44mag
May 16, 2009, 10:24 AM
My oldest daughter is a LEO and I sent this story to her.
I can't repeat what she said here but the drift is that any LEO that even though trained to do so is a complete idiot to use such tactics.
It's just not right and sets you and you're department up for a civil suite.
I do hope this jerk and his department gets sued.
I can see in some very remote situations where this tactic has merit but dam few, and this was not one of them.

Dust Monkey
May 16, 2009, 11:00 AM
From the article. A distraction blow is employed to prevent the suspect from doing something they were planning on doing. That just does not make sense. It sounds like mind reading police practice. Physical force is justified when a threat is eminent. A visible threat. Not a movement, I did not see a movement in the video to justify a kick to the head. All the officer had to do was detain at gun point until backup arrived, then cuff him. With my background and training in kuba baton and pr24, a strike to the head is a big NO NO.

I pray that this is not a new police tactic inserted in the use of force levels. If this is being taught, it's a sad day for LE. I can see kickng a suspect in the head if you are in eminent fear of your life or serious injury. But the officer had his weapon drawn. If in fear of his life, why not employ deadly force.

IMO this is a department in full CYA mode and playing "let's invent a new use of force " buzz word. Throw it on the wall and hope it sticks. I would like to see this go to court. But with the police investigating the police, it is not likely to happen.

Hirlau
May 16, 2009, 08:00 PM
I hope the P.O.S. (poor old subject) has a good dental plan. :D:D

DustMonkey,
I am hereby citing you for "Cop Bashing", son ! :mad:

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk73/typhoonwinds/CopBashingCitation.gif

OuTcAsT
May 16, 2009, 08:12 PM
I am hereby citing you for "Cop Bashing"

As opposed to what the LEO in the video did ?


I hope the P.O.S. (poor old subject) has a good dental plan.

^ Excellent example of the "us vs. them" mentality^
And why a rift exists between LE and the public at large.

Hirlau
May 16, 2009, 08:14 PM
Exactly !;)

Erik
May 16, 2009, 08:30 PM
I've been trained in the past to deliver "distraction blows," the term used by the trainers, in a manner designed to facilitate the application of another physical technique.

As in:

1. Attempt technique unsuccessfully,
2. Deliver distraction blow.
3. Perform technique successfully.

I have seen individuals in the training environment utilize distraction blows outside of that parameter, subsequent to the application of pressure and the presence of adrenaline.

It is quite possible what we have here is a similar case. Distraction blows fall well short of one's "best shot," so the tale of the tape should substantiate, and likely did, the officer's claim. Has the footage been made available to the general public?

Now that said there's a difference between explainable and justifiable.

Gary L. Griffiths
May 16, 2009, 08:32 PM
OK, let me get this straight: He kicked the suspect while he was lying on the ground unresisting under the rationale that he needed to distract him so he could 'cuff him? :rolleyes:

I do happen to be an expert on police use of force, including deadly force, having taught these topics full time for the last fourteen years. (I'm listed in several expert witness databases.) In fact, just finished evaluating a case for a law firm in MN.

Somebody Puhleeze give the suspect's attorney my name and phone number! I would love to trash the defense's experts, if they can find any willing to testify.

Hint: Can we say, "End-of-Chase Syndrome?" :eek:

Hirlau
May 16, 2009, 08:52 PM
Oh Gary, Puhleeze !:rolleyes:

Now, you are gonna get a citation for "aiding" a subject who had no concern for human life around him. Alot of money to be made "on the Dark Side".

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk73/typhoonwinds/CopBashingCitation.gif

Why not "Pro Bono" your services to the officer's department. Teach them about, "End of Chase Syndrome"; as you put it .:rolleyes:

birdshot
May 16, 2009, 08:52 PM
try this; have someone hold arm out at shoulder height, palm down, now you try to push their arm down, they should be able to resist the movement.
now again have them hold arm out at shoulder height, palm down, but this time slap their other shoulder, as you begin the push of the extended arm.

in my limited martial arts training we were taught to always do a distraction technique before attempting a restraint manuever. nerve points were the recommended targets.

Dust Monkey
May 16, 2009, 09:40 PM
What kind of move can you physically make to apprehend a suspect, with your weapon drawn and no backup around? Holding a felon at gunpoint, no back up around you, what do you need to distract from? You only need to keep holding said felon until backup arrives and arrest him. End of chase syndrome, you bet. POPO. You bet.

Hirlau,

Please take those posters you cut and paste, your "cops do no wrong" attitude back over to coptalk. We like to have adult, real world discussions here. This is not bashing cops. This is one officer who IMO went a giant leap over the line and used excessive force. I wont even begin to discuss if this is actually being taught as this officer used it.

I can see using a strike or blow as a means to an end. Strike to diaphram to knock the breath out of someone so you can place them on the ground and cuff them. That does not apply here. Employing hand to hand combat with your side arm drawn is not a healthy thing, for you not the suspect.

Their are techniques for arresting a violent person by yourself, I have been trained on and taught others as well. Funny thing. None involved kicks to the head (or any kick to the body) with you gun out of it's holster.

Hirlau
May 16, 2009, 09:52 PM
Quote, " We like to have adult, real world discussions here."

Not when your OP is so drenched in "bias' my friend, humor is all this thread deserves.:(

OP quote; "Now. I do not want this to become a bash all cops thread"

You knew from the beginning where this was going.;)

Dust Monkey
May 16, 2009, 10:15 PM
Unhitch your blue wagons. The only officer and their actions Being discussed is the officer who was taped kicking a compliant suspect in the head. No one is bashing LE. See this is why I left coptalk. Infants over there can not take questions and critisims about wrong doing on the cops part. Your post above about the suspect hopefully having a dental plan is bashing. It's bashing citizens, even the criminals need their rights protected. You should have been taught that as a rookie.

Now back to the discussion. Any police trainers want to chime in here. Opine on this. ?

sholling
May 16, 2009, 10:23 PM
Not when your OP is so drenched in "bias' my friend, humor is all this thread deserves.The only one I see with a huge bias is you my friend. You have the same attitude the LAPD has - a cop can do no wrong. I think you can now count your credibility as zero. I've seen the tape and this was a blatant case of felony assault under color of authority.

Per SOP LAPD will circle the wagons. Plan A was probably to say that the suspect attacked the officer's shoe with his face, but since the video ruled that out they went to Plan B - it was a distraction blow. The next step is that LAPD will issue a ruling that the blow was within policy. At that point they will hope the case just goes away. Most of the time the DA follows a gentleman's agreement not to prosecute officers so it probably will just go away. But if the DA is backed into a corner by publicity and forced to file charges he/she will simply neglect to offer any evidence at the trail and blame "brain damaged jurors" - the officer walks and returns to the job - SOP.

I personally feel that the officer should be terminated and should be allowed to plead guilty to misdemeanor battery charges and accept a few years of probation. However I'd settle for a 30 day unpaid suspension and loss of all rank - if and only if there were no previous incidents.

madmo44mag
May 16, 2009, 10:27 PM
Now that said there's a difference between explainable and justifiable.

Exactly and when watching this video the action "Does Not APPEAR" to be justified.

It can also be a matter of time on the force.
Younger officers has less experience and perceive a threat when there may not be one or the threat can be neutralized in another fashion.

Hirlau
May 16, 2009, 10:32 PM
Quote; "See this is why I left coptalk. Infants over there can not take questions and critisims about went doing on the cops part. "

This confirms it all, maybe your not a cop basher; just a cop hater.

Why would any experienced officer want to have a discussion with you? They will never change your attitude or convince you of their actions.

In closing; everybody who watched that video ( citizens and LEO'S...me included) knows the officer was wrong, made a bad mistake. What never ceases to amaze me is people like you, who after seeing a mistake made by an officer; jump to the aid of the P.O.S. (poor old subject :D). Suddenly the actions of the P.O.S. are out-weighted by the single kick to the head.

You are not interested in the lack of training in todays law enforcement; the main reason for this incident. :(

Hirlau
May 16, 2009, 10:36 PM
Hey sholling,
How many times have you been in the back of a cruiser?:D

OuTcAsT
May 16, 2009, 11:19 PM
In closing; everybody who watched that video ( citizens and LEO'S...me included) knows the officer was wrong, made a bad mistake. What never ceases to amaze me is people like you, who after seeing a mistake made by an officer; jump to the aid of the P.O.S. (poor old subject ). Suddenly the actions of the P.O.S. are out-weighted by the single kick to the head.

This is absolutely one of the most "biased" quotes I have ever seen. Since I have been here at TFL I have read posts by many of our LE members and, have come to respect most of them as they seem to be rational, and professional. I have even had debates over LE tactics with them and we all left the table with a bit more than we came with. It is a shame when an exception pops up and tarnishes the good will, and mutual respect, that is commonly found here.

Do you honestly think that anyone is so naive as to not know what your "POS" comment implies?

As far as the "subjects" actions being outweighed by a "single kick to the head" Pardon me if I expect a Law Enforcement Officer to act a bit more professional than a street thug.

I have never visited the Coptalk forum but, if it is as full of machismo (among other things) as your posts are, then perhaps you would be more comfortable amongst your peers.

LE Bashing is not tolerated here, at least I have not seen it in the years I have been a part of this community. But, pointing out a particular Bad incident ( you even admitted it yourself ) occurs, It is only bashing the moron who made the head kick.

Dust Monkey
May 16, 2009, 11:21 PM
Why would any experienced officer want to have a discussion with you? They will never change your attitude or convince you of their actions.


I was in LE, and very expedrienced at that. I do not hate cops, have many cop friends. I also have been used as an expert witness at trials where small arms are concerned. And no my attitude will never change about what actions and use of force is right and what is criminally wrong.

What never ceases to amaze me is people like you, who after seeing a mistake made by an officer; jump to the aid of the P.O.S. (poor old subject ). Suddenly the actions of the P.O.S. are out-weighted by the single kick to the head.


I hate the "cops can do no wrong" ideology. And yes, I come to the defense of the, as you say, POS suspect. You as a cop are charged with protecting the POS's rights as well. That is fact. Just because the suspect has committed a crime, just shot someone, or what ever, he still has rights. Did you miss that lecture in the academy, out sick. Just because a person is being pursued as a criminal, and caught, does not mean you can ignore his rights. Nothing is out-weighted. Just because the POS committed a crime, does not mean you get a "free" shot at him. Thats militant thinking, vigilante attitude. Like, you made me do my job I applied for, you made me run after you, so I feel I get to kick you. It does not work that way. If you think it does, please quit LE now, you dont have what it takes to safely patrol and protect citizens.

Hirlau
May 16, 2009, 11:35 PM
You now get one for "Senseless Ranting" :mad:

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk73/typhoonwinds/CopBashingCitation.gif

OuTcAsT
May 16, 2009, 11:36 PM
You are not interested in the lack of training in todays law enforcement; the main reason for this incident.

Question Hirlau, Do you feel that you have a lack of training ?

OuTcAsT
May 16, 2009, 11:42 PM
...deleted....

Hirlau
May 16, 2009, 11:44 PM
Yes, I do; in some areas of law enforcement.
But considering the fact that I'm retired and finding a breakfast location each day is my only task; I probably won't be supplementing my "Training File" anytime soon. :D

Hirlau
May 16, 2009, 11:46 PM
Not fair, OutCast :mad:

You posted the same "rant" twice.

That could get you another citation.;)

sholling
May 16, 2009, 11:52 PM
I suspect that our troll has never been in law enforcement except in his dreams. I for one am through feeding the troll. :rolleyes:

OuTcAsT
May 16, 2009, 11:56 PM
Not fair, OutCast


No problem, I can just get my peers to back me up, either stating that it was a "distraction post" and saying that it was perfectly acceptable, or they can bemoan my lack of proper "forum training" as a defense.

Dust Monkey
May 16, 2009, 11:59 PM
More coptalk infant posts.

Back to my initial post if any LE trainers in use of force would like to chime in, opine on this, please do. This "distraction blow" is BS. I just got off the phone with a retired State Trooper (retired this year). Read him the article and some of the posts here supporting these actions. His reply, ***. That's about all I can relay on what he said on his forum without getting banned.

What bothers me, if some cops think this distraction blow is ok, what happens if I or another citizen get pulled over. You know, jus happen to match the description of a vehicle that robbed a bank or shot someone. We comply, lay prone and do as we are told. Is there a chance we get kicked in the head?

The very idea that this incident is OK is mind numbing.

Dust Monkey
May 17, 2009, 12:03 AM
OuTcAsT you owe me a keyboard. I just spit tea all over it reading that last post of yours.

And I agree. Let's talk about this in incident and ignore the trolling.

Hirlau
May 17, 2009, 12:08 AM
Quote; "any LE trainers in use of force would like to chime in, opine on this, please do"


Again, I ask , "Why would they want to? ":rolleyes:

Sarge
May 17, 2009, 12:19 AM
I won't claim to know every current training doctrine related to force-on-force.

We were taught to hit/kick/throw/choke in response to being attacked. I was taught that if you have reason to hit/kick someone, you hit them like you intend to take them out of the fight with the first one you land. The object was to win and win fast, avoid injury and not lose your gun.

We were taught that beating/kicking proned-out, compliant suspects was an excellent way to get to meet FBI agents and have the unique distinction of getting criminally prosecuted & sued simultaneously, under federal statutes.

Still, I think this term 'distraction blow' is another way of saying 'diversionary tactic'- which sort of tattles on the motivation behind using it, in the first place.

Dust Monkey
May 17, 2009, 12:59 AM
Sarge

You summed up what I was taught and was attempting to explain.

Distraction blow, diversion tactics, all good uses of force. They just don't apply in this incident. The officer had a prone, compliant subject. He had his weapon drawn pointed at the subject. Why the kick. There was no justifiable action to do so. What if during the kick, the officer AD/ND his weapon hitting the suspect? He had to get close to the suspect to kick him, too close, no backup. What if the suspect had taken be weapon from the officer? Now you have a dead officer and a suspect that was unarmed now armed and could kill another officer or citizen. This officer had his head in his nether regions. He has no business wearing a badge. This incident proves he is not able to make correct decisions in a heated situation.

Wagonman
May 17, 2009, 01:07 AM
Is a full copy of tape available online. Without seeing a full tape I cannot opine inteligently. If he was moving his hand toward his body the copper might be justified in giving a stunning blow. If it was a extra biff for being a P.O.S. it should've been done in private.

Sorry, but if the element thinks it's ok to play the role without ramification we will lose the street.

maestro pistolero
May 17, 2009, 01:21 AM
Cops who beat compliant subjects are doing a disservice to their profession that, in the long run erodes trust of the citizen and eventually will endanger more officers.

LE "techniques" like kicking compliant, prone subjects in the head, is about the best way imaginable to CONVINCINGLY teach the public that compliance itself is dangerous behavior.

If this unlawful activity continues unchecked, it will ultimately result in more injuries and possible deaths to both suspects and officers, because more suspects will resist with greater and greater force due to legitimate fear.

An officer's power, and control comes as much from trust, and respect as it does from force. If officers lose the respect and trust of the bulk of the citizenry, they have lost a lot more than just 'the street'.

Dust Monkey
May 17, 2009, 01:25 AM
"Should have been done in private".

You condone actions like this? The street element should be afraid of ramifications? From police officers? Cops do not dish out justice. That is the job of the courts. Cops doing this in private. That makes you worse than the criminals. Man I hope you don't wear a badge.

"We will lose the street". Sounds like gang talk to me. Gangs with badges. It's sickning.

Hirlau
May 17, 2009, 01:53 AM
From the OP, nothing to do with firearms, shooting or promotion of our (TFL) interests. (Firearms)

Dust Monkey,
Have the dignity to call this one a draw and close your own thread.

Goodnight!

maestro pistolero
May 17, 2009, 02:08 AM
It has nothing to do with dignity, Hirlau, and it doesn't have to be about firearms to be relevant here.

From the Forum Rules for Law and Civil Rights:
Discussions in this forum will be centered upon legal issues as they relate to the 2nd Amendment and other Civil Rights. Constitutional law (which would encompass separation of powers, the impairment of contracts clause, the full faith and credit clause, etc., as well as the Bill of Rights) will also be on topic.

You think this is a DRAW? Maybe it's just me, but I think a face-down, compliant, subject with his arms and legs outstretched has a civil right not to be kicked in the head, no matter what the POS did before that moment. One can't justify one criminal act because of another. It's assault, any way you slice it.

Dust Monkey
May 17, 2009, 02:20 AM
It's not a draw. It's a topic covered under the TFL charter. I don't see why you want a draw called. You are the only one I the minority thinking this cop was in the right. Then posting childish retorts trying your best to turn this into an anti cop thread.

This is a pro civil rights discussion. The suspect had his civil rights violated under color of law (which is a Federal Offense). Hopefully a fed case will come out of this. If it does and the officer gets arrested, let's hope he does not get kicked in the head while being compliant.

maestro pistolero
May 17, 2009, 03:41 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLE0CMGz4m4

Or just search police abuse on youtube and it pops right up. The Chief was at a loss for words, weakly suggesting that the subject may have had his hands under his body. You be the judge.

Al Norris
May 17, 2009, 06:39 AM
The only tickets being issued at TFL, are those given by the moderators.

This thread has been dragged way off topic by a single individual. It would have been better had no one responded to the obvious troll. That report post button is there for a reason, folks. Please, use it next time.

Should new information come to light, this topic may be brought up again. Until such a time....

Closed for trolling and taking the low road.