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Old Iron and Wood
May 11, 2009, 12:00 PM
I' ran into an issue that stumped me regarding C&R qualification; I was interested in an Enfield that had a 'SPORTERIZED' stock and per the seller he could not list it as a C&R because of that modification. I emailed the ATF about this issue and I'm awaiting word from them on this issue but, I'll ask you guys your opinon; first, per C&R requirements as long as a military rifle is 50 years old or older and all parts are original it will qualify as a C&R; however new parts to replace old non working parts is acceptable and does not change the rifle's C&R classification; HOWEVER, if you change the original stock out for a synthetic stock that rifle looses it's C&R qualification. OK, I can agree with that however, my question to the ATF is 'why would modifying an original stock change the rifle C&R qualification? Techinquely your not replacing the original stock out, but simply modifying it, the stock is still the original.'

Orlando
May 11, 2009, 12:23 PM
double post

Orlando
May 11, 2009, 12:24 PM
You can replace old worn out parts with modern reproductions and still be C&R elidgeable but change the configuration such as sporterize it with synthetic stock, cut down the barrel , cut down the stock ,etc and it is not longer a C&R as it is no longer original configuration

jsmaye
May 11, 2009, 02:40 PM
I asked this once before but got a non-answer (since it wasn't really important, I blew it off) - isn't a 50+ year-old rifle eligible for C&R regardless of its configuration?

Orlando
May 11, 2009, 02:47 PM
It must be 50 years old or older to be elidgeable and in original unaltered condition. Its all in the rule book you got with you license or on the ATF website
I suggest you review it, the answers are ther to most simple questions
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/2001index.htm

Just exactly what did he change on the stock? If its the original stock and he just reshaped it and nothing else is different on the rifle it "could" still be elidgeable. Bottom line is if he doesnt feel comfortable shipping it to a C&R he doest have to

carguychris
May 11, 2009, 04:29 PM
Here's how I understand the "original configuration" rule.

If the part is designed to be readily removable in the field, it's OK if it's incorrect or missing. Examples include rifle slings, pistol magazines, and cleaning rods.

Incorrect or clumsy repairs are OK to some degree, as is clearly unintentional damage. An example of an acceptable incorrect repair would be a replacement handguard that's the right shape but made from non-matching wood, or an armorer-replaced rifle magazine that has the wrong serial number but is correct for the type.

Modifications and/or missing parts do fall into a grey area, but most collectors- and the ATF- would probably agree that a hacked-up stock crosses the line, especially if the profile of the original has been obliterated.

Hkmp5sd
May 11, 2009, 05:32 PM
To be C&R, a firearm must be 50 years of age OR for some reason be collectible and added to ATF's C&R list by name.

NOTE: For US made firearms, none of this matters. It can be C&R based on age alone. This applies only to imported military surplus firearms.

When we speak of the "original configuration" description, we are generally speaking of "military" firearms.

Remember that none of this existed prior to 1968. Before that date, guns could pretty much be imported, bought and sold at will. After that date, we were introduced to things such as 01-FFLs, C&R 03-FFLs and "sporting" firearms.

The 1968 GCA banned the importation of any former "military" firearm with the exception of those imported under the C&R clause.


(d) The Attorney General shall authorize a firearm or ammunition to be imported or brought into the United States or any possession thereof if the firearm or ammunition—
<snip>
(3) is of a type that does not fall within the definition of a firearm as defined in section 5845(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954 and is generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes, excluding surplus military firearms,except in any case where the Attorney General has not authorized the importation of the firearm pursuant to this paragraph, it shall be unlawful to import any frame, receiver, or barrel of such firearm which would be prohibited if assembled; or
<snip>
(e) Notwithstanding any other provision of this title, the Attorney General shall authorize the importation of any licensed importer, by the following: (1) All rifles and shotguns listed as curios or relics by the Attorney General pursuant to section 921(a)(13), and

This is were the "original configuration" comes into play. Any military firearm that was imported after 1968 had to be on the C&R list as a collectible firearm. It is only considered a C&R if it remains in its original configuration. (Remember, JFK was killed with a imported military rifle that was not in its military configuration.)

If you change the configuration, you remove it from the C&R list and it is no longer a legal import. A prime example is the current crop of Yugo SKS rifles. They are legal in their military configuration. If you slap a folding stock, pistol grip and 30-round magazine onto it, it becomes an illegal rifle for two reasons. First, it isn't a C&R any more and cannot be imported because it is "military surplus" and second because it violates 922(r) which prohibits the assembly from imported parts any firearm that it not legal for imporation in its assembled form.

If the Enfield was imported prior to 1968, it is a C&R based on age alone, regardless of configuration.

BobbyT
May 12, 2009, 03:08 AM
Just to reiterate, since I see this misinformation so often:

50+ years old = C&R status.

Not eligible for C&R consideration by the ATF; when it turns 50 it's on the list. Other <50 year old guns are also added, but age alone automatically makes a gun C&R.

jsmaye
May 12, 2009, 07:23 AM
Some of you say 50+ years and unaltered, some say 50+ years regardless of condition, some of you say 50+ years if domestic and 50+ years and unaltered if imported, as long as importation took place before 1968.

Since I don't care to alter my milsurps, I'll just leave this debate to you all...:rolleyes:

BobbyT
May 12, 2009, 08:06 AM
Period-alterations are fine.
Non-period alterations, as long as they're historical, are fine (Nazis taking over Russian arsenals and putting new scopes on old surplus rifles).
Alterations made as repairs are fine.

It's only alterations that were never done to that gun and have no historical relevance that could cause them to lose C&R status. And it's not illegal to do...you can hack as many C&R rifles into as many configurations as you want. They'd just technically lose C&R status for future sales.

And I'm curious if the ATF has ever decided to go after anyone, ever, for a milsurp rifle he bought, tweaked to his liking, and later sold. I guess if you sell it down the road just reverse any non-historical, non-collector-y modifications you've made to be on the safe side.

jsmaye
May 12, 2009, 08:19 AM
It's only alterations that were never done to that gun and have no historical relevance that could cause them to lose C&R status. And it's not illegal to do...you can hack as many C&R rifles into as many configurations as you want. They'd just technically lose C&R status for future sales.

I can see the potential pie fight with the BATFE if they find you have an "unapproved" alteration on a C&R firearm. Would you have to prove that it was unaltered, and therefore C&R-eligible, when purchased?

BobbyT
May 12, 2009, 05:29 PM
Not any more than you'd have to prove you've never shot anyone...the onus is on them.

But I was talking about the actual likelihood that you'd ever pop up on their radar, that they'd notice someone like that, and that they'd care.

I mean you'd have to have them paying you a visit already, and someone familiar with that particular multiple-decades-out-of-production-and-probably-foreign rifle would have to be there to notice that that particular scope was never paired with it, and they'd have to have reason to believe you bought it from out of state as C&R instead of going through an 01, AND they'd have to go after you for it.

We're not talking about chopping Garand barrels down to 10" here; we're talking about a period-incorrect stock. Again, worst case is you swap it back to original before you sell to an out-of-state 03...or you just sell it to an 01 or whomever you want in-state since it's just a regular rifle at that point. It's not illegal to un-C&R a C&R; C&R rules just don't apply to it.

Hkmp5sd
May 12, 2009, 05:32 PM
ATF has ruled that only permanent changes will cause a C&R firearm to lose its status. They say that as long as you retain all of the original parts and can "readily" convert the firearm back to original, it is still a C&R.

James K
May 12, 2009, 08:07 PM
As I understand, and have been told by BATFE, the gun must be 50 years old in its current configuration. So a Mauser made in 1944, and unaltered, became a C&R in 1994. But if the rifle has been restocked, rebarrelled, a scope mounted, etc., it became a "new" gun when that work was done. So if the work was done in 1989, the rifle still has 30 years to go before it becomes a C&R.

Jim

BobbyT
May 12, 2009, 08:17 PM
No, that's incorrect. We've been discussing the finer points of what exactly kicks a rifle out of C&R status, but restocking/rebarreling certainly don't.

madcratebuilder
May 19, 2009, 01:16 PM
No, that's incorrect. We've been discussing the finer points of what exactly kicks a rifle out of C&R status, but restocking/rebarreling certainly don't.

You may want to check your source on that info. If you put a sporter stock or custom barrel on a mil-surp c&r it is no longer c&r. It must retain it's original configuration.

BobbyT
May 19, 2009, 03:29 PM
Sorry, by REstocking or REbarreling I meant replacing a (presumably worn or broken) one.

If your barrel wears out in your Mosin and you replace it in 2009, that doesn't suddenly reset its C&R eligibility to 2009...even the ATF isn't that ridiculous. If you saw your Mosin barrel off to 16", then yeah that would kick it out of C&R status.

Likewise, if you mounted a scope on something that never had a scope, you wouldn't suddenly have a "2059 C&R". You'd have the same gun, you'd just need to pull the scope off before you resold it as a C&R.

johnwilliamson062
May 19, 2009, 03:53 PM
Likewise, if you mounted a scope on something that never had a scope, you wouldn't suddenly have a "2059 C&R". You'd have the same gun, you'd just need to pull the scope off before you resold it as a C&R.

That is an interesting assertion. I am under the impression that, technically speaking although you would never be caught, if you put a stock that does not model the original issue stock on an SKS it loses it's C&R status even if you then return it to original configuration. I find it odd that this would not be true concerning a scope.

I can see why there would be a general exception for sights and optics though.

Also I believe you can use a synthetic material as long as the stock is the same shape as the original issue.

smoakingun
May 19, 2009, 05:36 PM
are you guys reading from the same book I am? 478.11 definition of curio and relics: firearms which were manufactured at least 50 prior to the current date, but not replicas thereof.

that is all there is regarding age. and nothing about modification.
I can't find anything about modifing an import after it is imported making it c&r inelligible.

so to answer your original question, buy that sporter

Orlando
May 19, 2009, 07:00 PM
Keep reading

smoakingun
May 20, 2009, 05:05 PM
Keep reading where? The only other info I can find involves import. For import the weapon must be in origional configuration, but there is provision for barreled actions to be imported as c&r. I can't find anything about a modification made by an individual causing it to loose it's c&r status. Now if a manufacture, like gibbs rifle company, imports them for remanufacture, then follows through, that is a different provision entirely.

Orlando
May 20, 2009, 05:32 PM
Read your book of rules, frequintly asked questions, the ATF website. Its in all three. I dont have time to look it up for you. Still dont understand call the ATF
Just as if you have a C&R fiearm and you strip it down for parts and sell them off. The receiver is no longer a C&R because it is not in original configuration

smoakingun
May 20, 2009, 10:26 PM
check your info. No such question in faq section. However, check the introduction section of your curio and relics list.

Importation Restrictions:
"...A surplus military firearm is defined as one that belonged to a regular or irregular military force at any time. Alteration of the firearm does not change it's status. Therefore, a sporting firearm with a surplus military frame or reciever is a surplus military firearm, because a frame or reciever is classified as a firearm as described in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3)"

The fed does not care what stock configuration you have, buy or sell, unless the barrel is less that 16" long.

I did read my rule book. Now it is your turn.

Orlando
May 21, 2009, 05:32 AM
Its in there, I have also personally talked to the ATF about this very subject. Hey, you dont have to agree
I know the rules, I dont have to defend my stand.

smoakingun
May 21, 2009, 06:04 PM
ok

Hkmp5sd
May 21, 2009, 07:40 PM
I did read my rule book. Now it is your turn.


Unless it was imported. ALL imported C&R firearms must remain in their compleletely assemble military configuration or they are no longer C&R firearms and must be considered "Modern". If you do alter an imported military C&R firearm from its original configuration, you must ensure you do not voilate 922(r).

27 CFR 178.118: IMPORTATION OF CERTAIN FIREARMS CLASSIFIED AS CURIOS OR RELICS (Also 178.11 and 178.26)

Surplus military firearms frames or receivers alone not specifically classified as curios or relics by ATF will be denied importation.

ATF Rul. 85-10 Section 233 of the Trade and Tariff Act of 1984, 98 Stat. 2991, amended Title 18, United States Code, section 925 to allow licensed importers to import firearms listed by the Secretary as curios or relics, excluding handguns not generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes. The amendment had the effect of allowing the importation of surplus military curio or relic firearms that were previously prohibited from importation by 18 U.S.C. section 925(d)(3).

Congressional intent was expressed by Senator Robert Dole in 130 CONG. REC. S2234 (daily ed.,Mar. 2, 1984), as follows: First. This provision is aimed at allowing collectors to import fine works of art and other valuable weapons.

Second. This provision would allow the importation of certain military surplus firearms that are classified as curios and relics by regulations of the Secretary of the Treasury.

Third. In order for an individual or firm to import a curio or relic it must first be put on a list by petitioning the Secretary of the Treasury. The Secretary must find the firearm's primary value is that of being a collector's item.

Fourth. The only reason a person would purchase these firearms is because of their peculiar collector's status. And, in fact, they must be special firearms and classified as such in order to import.

This language clearly shows that Congress intended to permit the importation of surplus military firearms of special interest and value to collectors and recognized by ATF as meeting the curio or relic definition in 27 CFR 178.11. The regulation defines "curios or relics" as firearms of "special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is ordinarily associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons." The regulation further defines curios or relics to include "firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period or event."

In classifying firearms as curios or relics under this regulation, ATF has recognized only assembled firearms as curios or relics.

Moreover, ATF's classification of surplus military firearms as curios or relics has extended only to those firearms in their original military configuration.

Frames or receivers of curios or relics and surplus military firearms not in their original military configuration were not generally recognized as curios or relics by ATF since they were not of special interest or value as collector's items.

Specifically, they did not meet the definition of curio or relic in section 178.11 as firearms of special interest to collectors by reason of a quality other than is ordinarily associated with sporting firearms or offensive or defensive weapons.

Furthermore, they did not ordinarily have monetary value as novel, rare, or bizarre firearms; nor were they generally considered curios or relics because of their association with some historical figure, period or event.

It is clear from the legislative history that Congress did not intend for the frames or receivers alone of surplus military firearms, or any other surplus military firearms not in their original military configuration, to be importable under section 925(e). It is also clear that only those firearms classified by ATF as curios or relics were intended to be approved by ATF for importation.

Held: to be importable under 18 U.S.C. section 925(e), surplus military firearms must be classified as curios or relics by ATF. Applications by licensed importers to import frames or receivers alone of surplus military curio or relic firearms will not be approved under section 925(e). Surplus military firearms will not be classified as curios or relics unless they are assembled in their original military configuration, and applications for permits to import such firearms will not be approved.

[ATFB 85-3 46]


http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/rulings.pdf