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Mr. Davis
May 6, 2009, 11:38 AM
This was reported May 4:

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/19365762/detail.html

COLLEGE PARK, Ga. -- A group of college students said they are lucky to be alive and they’re thanking the quick-thinking of one of their own. Police said a fellow student shot and killed one of two masked me who burst into an apartment.

Channel 2 Action News reporter Tom Jones met with one of the students to talk about the incident.

“Apparently, his intent was to rape and murder us all,” said student Charles Bailey.

TOM JONES: College Student Shoots, Kills Home Invader

Bailey said he thought it was the end of his life and the lives of the 10 people inside his apartment for a birthday party after two masked men with guns burst in through a patio door.

“They just came in and separated the men from the women and said, ‘Give me your wallets and cell phones,’” said George Williams of the College Park Police Department.

Bailey said the gunmen started counting bullets. “The other guy asked how many (bullets) he had. He said he had enough,” said Bailey.

That’s when one student grabbed a gun out of a backpack and shot at the invader who was watching the men. The gunman ran out of the apartment.

The student then ran to the room where the second gunman, identified by police as 23-year-old Calvin Lavant, was holding the women.

“Apparently the guy was getting ready to rape his girlfriend. So he told the girls to get down and he started shooting. The guy jumped out of the window,” said Bailey.

A neighbor heard the shots and heard someone running nearby.

“And I heard someone say, ‘Someone help me. Call the police. Somebody call the police,’” said a neighbor.

The neighbor said she believes it was Lavant, who was found dead near his apartment, only one building away.

Bailey said he is just thankful one student risked his life to keep others alive.

“I think all of us are really cognizant of the fact that we could have all been killed,” said Bailey.

One female student was shot several times during the crossfire. She is expected to make a full recovery.

Police said they are close to making the arrest of the second suspect.

I would love to hear your assessments: here are mine.

One student had a concealed firearm, but waited until it was exceedingly clear everyone's life or well being was in jeopardy before acting. He was (I think rightfully) willing to comply with requests for wallets and cell phones without escalating the situation, but acted when it was clear the BGs intended to kill and rape. I think this was good restraint, especially considering the potential collateral damage in a packed apartment.

Speaking of collateral damage, when the GG started shooting, that decision directly or indirectly resulted in injury to one of the women in the apartment, who was "shot in the crossfire". I think, even if the GG's bullets were the ones that hit her, he acted in the right because the possibility of collateral damage was outweighed by the near certainty of rape and murder at the hands of the thugs.

So a question for the gallery: In the case of a cramped apartment bedroom, with an armed rapist probably already on top of one woman, and four others in unknown positions around the room, is it a good idea to shoot? I think yes - I can't think of another alternative, and the guy just heard his friend get shot at, so he's ready to pull the trigger himself.

5whiskey
May 6, 2009, 11:43 AM
My take is I think there is greater danger in this world of letting evil men get away with murder while good men are too paralyzed by fear of litigation to act.

My .02

doh_312
May 6, 2009, 11:44 AM
I think this turned out as best as it could. GG was out numbered and out gunned plus they BGs separated. Certainly hope if I'm ever in this kind of problem I come out as well.

KingEdward
May 6, 2009, 11:52 AM
okay to shoot in a cramped apartment with rapist and BG already committing crimes.

Would have to say yes, okay to shoot to stop crime / threat.

It is clear that during and after in this situation, most of them thought they were going to die regardless.

This is not a fun thought but do I want to die fighting (and/or shooting)
or die on my knees the way they choose.

Terrible that the girl got hit in the crossfire but thankful that she is recovering.

Everyone is alive. Could have been an absolute tragedy.

Brian Pfleuger
May 6, 2009, 11:53 AM
Sounds like he did what he should have done.

Compliance until it becomes clear that compliance is too dangerous, then act, and act decisively.

hogdogs
May 6, 2009, 11:58 AM
+1 to Wheeler... My sentiments zackly!
Brent

David Armstrong
May 6, 2009, 12:10 PM
Compliance until it becomes clear that compliance is too dangerous, then act, and act decisively
Exactly. Compliance usually works, use it first. When it becomes apparent that compliance creates more danger than fighting, fight. Minimize the loss of resources, whatever that might entail.

csmsss
May 6, 2009, 12:10 PM
The injuries to the female are, of course, very regrettable, but the most regrettable aspect of this event is that one of the criminals survived.

Kudos to the good guy who put an end to things.

markj
May 6, 2009, 12:44 PM
He did good. Too bad the other guy got away. More of them should have been armed in my opnion.

MLeake
May 6, 2009, 01:22 PM
I believe the student with the weapon was in Marine Corps ROTC; not sure if prior enlisted.

PhoenixConflagration
May 6, 2009, 02:11 PM
It would be interesting to find out if the girl's injuries were caused by the GG's or the BG's bullets. I imagine that the BG's erratic and panicked return fire is the likely culprit, but even if the GG was the only one to fire shots, he did the best thing he could have in an f'd up situation. Kudos to that guy. He saved ten lives, no question about it.

Mr. Davis
May 6, 2009, 02:30 PM
Yeah, it's probably a fair assumption that the BG fired over his shoulder as he dove out the window. Overpenetration of the GG's bullets could also be a culprit at the very close ranges involved. Here's hoping the girl was shot by the BG. I'd hate to see overprotective parents sue this hero for saving the life of their child and her friends.

Mr. Davis
May 6, 2009, 03:57 PM
More information from HotAir.com. Here's a video. I can't see it at work, so hopefully it's good coverage.

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/05/06/video-would-be-rapistmurderers-receive-second-amendment-lesson/

skoro
May 6, 2009, 04:23 PM
For the student who decided to act: well done.

I don't think anyone who has a weapon at hand should assume good intentions on the part of armed intruders.

Dubs
May 6, 2009, 04:27 PM
I wouldn't be surprised to see the college subsequently ban the student for having a handgun on campus. They would have expected him to picket the thugs.

elrod
May 6, 2009, 05:33 PM
I wouldn't be surprised to see the college subsequently ban the student for having a handgun on campus. They would have expected him to picket the thugs.

Hopefully not. I'm thinking this is an off-campus apartment where the adminstration has no say-so about the students carrying arms. I would be interested in hearing the reaction of those female students. Kudos to the armed student!

Tennessee Gentleman
May 6, 2009, 05:34 PM
Compliance until it becomes clear that compliance is too dangerous, then act, and act decisively.

Peetza, I am curious, what criteria would you use to determine when compliance is too dangerous? Do you have rules of thumb?

I have watched several debates on TFL about compliance vs resistance so I decided to look about a bit.

I am not a criminologist (although my bachelors degree was in criminology too long ago to mention) but there is a guy guy named Dr. Gary Kleck who is and is well known. I have read a lot of articles by Dr. Kleck and since the NRA likes him and the Bradys don't, I take that as a ringing endorsement:D

Anyway, here is what his take is on the resist/comply issue:

This is a documentary by a fellow named Larry Elder and it is very good

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYxGVIMVohw

Pay attention to about 8:21 till the end of the segment.

And here is another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glHMRVafFZI

and pay attention on this clip to 01:54 to 02:07.

I will let you all draw your own conclusions but my take is that the conventional wisdom (which I think was intended for the unarmed public) that you should comply to avoid injury might not be so good an idea today if you are armed and can resist.

Finally, what I seem to see as good advice is; comply only if you do not have the advantage (cover, distance, weapon or concealment etc) and only comply until you have the advantage and then never relinquish it if you can get it (advantage) and then use it to protect yourself.

tshadow6
May 6, 2009, 05:50 PM
Congratulations to the good guy. I love it when the bad guys get what's coming to them. Think of all the taxpayer money that was saved. Now, the woman that got shot, better to be shot than raped then murdered. I always carried when I was attending college.

jjyergler
May 6, 2009, 06:15 PM
Peetza, I am curious, what criteria would you use to determine when compliance is too dangerous? Do you have rules of thumb?

On these forums, I see this kind of thing debated endlessly. Unfortunately, I don't think this question really has validity. The answer is completely case by case. Without seeing the BG, their actions, their body language, and their state of mind, the answer to this is going to be different in every situation.

Anything in life is subject to interpretation, and unfortunately, this kind of after action nitpicking is what drives our shameless litigation. The situation determines what the answer is. If it is a couple of nervous teenagers, the "how many bullets" question might be a sign of fear. If it is a couple of mob hitmen, this question becomes an entirely different matter.

Mr. Davis
May 6, 2009, 06:39 PM
I just watched the video (firewall at work prevented that earlier).

Very good coverage from the local news station - no criticism of the hero who acted in defense of his life and those of his friends. The video confirms that the two perps "had been watching him", meaning the guy who lived there.

pacerdude
May 6, 2009, 06:49 PM
I support the actions of the student who chose to defend himself and his friends. I think he did the right thing. God Bless him!

Deaf Smith
May 6, 2009, 06:59 PM
The fact that they broke into a appartment with people present, had guns drawn, and talked about how many bullets they had, is enough to do anything, even a banzi change, to try to stop them.

The student did well. In fact, I'd give him a medal!

Hate the woman was shot (and I hope she makes a 100 percent recovery.)

The one that got away needs to be caught and changed with murder (they started it and thus it's all on their head.)

Nnobby45
May 6, 2009, 07:00 PM
Reno, Nv., Halloween night, 2007. Two men crashed a party. One rather big fellow picked a fight with a University of Nevada basketball player while he was dancing and beat him senseless, while the man's friend, armed with a gun, kept others at bay.

The player was relieved of his wallet in the process. When some of the young men (unarmed students) attempted to intervene, three of them were shot dead by the one who initiated the fight--- at least one student was chased down and executed with shots to the head.

Things went from party crashing, to armed robbery, to triple murder in no time flat. Don't know what the initial intent of the two assailants was.

Their car was stopped down the road as they were leaving the scene, and they were taken into custody.

Samisoni Taukitoku will spend his remaining days in prison after three murder convictions (after some how avoiding the death penalty). His partner, Saili Manu will be in prison for a while, also on somewhat lesser charges. Neither men had prior criminal records.

The ball player was dismissed from the team for violating team rules.

Double Naught Spy
May 6, 2009, 07:22 PM
Speaking of collateral damage, when the GG started shooting, he directly or indirectly caused injury to one of the women in the apartment, who was "shot in the crossfire".

NO, the GG did not cause indirect injury to the woman in the apartment if she was shot by the BG. Now if the GG shot her, that is another matter, but you can't blame him for protecting his life and the lives of others if someone is injured by the BG, especially when it became clear they intended to shoot people. That became evident here...

Bailey said the gunmen started counting bullets. “The other guy asked how many (bullets) he had. He said he had enough,” said Bailey.

Blaming the GG for injuries caused by the BG is ridiculous.

Exactly. Compliance usually works,...

Sure enough, but certainly not always.

Enoy21
May 6, 2009, 08:24 PM
Dear God. I have a 13 yr old daughter .... I printed this thread off for her to read and realize how dangerous and often such a thing happens.


THANK YOU for making this post.

and THANK GOD and the student who took actions for those actions.

Mr. Davis
May 6, 2009, 09:36 PM
NO, the GG did not cause indirect injury to the woman in the apartment if she was shot by the BG. Now if the GG shot her, that is another matter, but you can't blame him for protecting his life and the lives of others if someone is injured by the BG, especially when it became clear they intended to shoot people. That became evident here...
I think you're arguing semantics here, but I won't argue your point because I know from experience that semantics win and lose battles in the court of public opinion. Especially when guns are the subject - assault weapons vs. assault rifles, anyone? ;)

I certainly don't think I "blamed him". If he hadn't acted, she would have worse than just gunshot wounds.

BTW, I edited the original post to clarify my thoughts.

cschwanz
May 6, 2009, 10:40 PM
And people question why i carry my gun to my friend's houses/apartments (I just graduated college last year).

From the info ive read, i see nothing wring with the students actions. he acted only after trying to comply with demands and saw the situation escalate to a degree in which he had good reason to fear for his life. I would like to think i could act the same way if ever put into a similar situation.

Hope the woman who was hit makes a full recovery.

ActivShootr
May 6, 2009, 11:24 PM
My assesment would be to give the kid a medal.

The percentage of people with ball$ has dramatically declined over the last few years. I nominate this guy for "biggest ones of the year".

Kyo
May 6, 2009, 11:35 PM
That is not too far from me. I emailed it to CCN and told them to run that! They should, since all they do is run the bad gun stories

cracked91
May 6, 2009, 11:40 PM
Its people like this that do give us a good name,

B.N.Real
May 7, 2009, 03:11 AM
It is wonderful to see our students being instructed to defend themselves and actually doing it.

I am tired of seeing our students being told to be helpless sheep.

These are the young people we hope to entrust the free world too.

This was a horror story in process that one outstanding young man stopped from happening.

As usual the chicken xxxx bad guys probably used a defenseless female as a shield.

I hope she recovers qiuckly.

ssilicon
May 7, 2009, 03:22 AM
One student had a concealed firearm, but waited until it was exceedingly clear everyone's life or well being was in jeopardy before acting. He was (I think rightfully) willing to comply with requests for wallets and cell phones without escalating the situation, but acted when it was clear the BGs intended to kill and rape. I think this was good restraint, especially considering the potential collateral damage in a packed apartment.

The second they threaten to shoot you if you do not do what they say, and show guns that can back up their threat, from that moment on when you have what you believe is your best opportunity, blast him.

I think it is COMPLETELY unreasonable to suggest that one should somehow trust the word of such a person that you will be unharmed if you do what he says. Not only that, but you should be able to use force on him to avoid having to do what he says (even if you think he might allow you to live). Once he points that gun at you he gives up any notion that using force upon him is worse than letting him force you to do things. What I mean by that is that no one is obligated to comply with the demands, and if the threat is you will be harmed if you do not, then shooting him is completely justified as self defense.

Speaking of collateral damage, when the GG started shooting, that decision directly or indirectly resulted in injury to one of the women in the apartment, who was "shot in the crossfire". I think, even if the GG's bullets were the ones that hit her, he acted in the right because the possibility of collateral damage was outweighed by the near certainty of rape and murder at the hands of the thugs.

I think he should have placed his shots better if it were his that were hitting innocent bystanders. But yeah, engaging the BGs was the right thing to do.

Transport
May 7, 2009, 04:57 AM
I think the chap showed good restraint until the moment came when he knew these BG's wanted more than thier money.

About opening fire in the crowded room, let training take over-
1. Breath
2. Sight alignment, sight picture.
3. Steady squeeze to the rear.

Chuck

Jofaba
May 7, 2009, 07:51 AM
They were all very lucky to have that guy there.

If he was carrying instead of it being in a backpack, I wonder if he would have acted at a different time.

As soon as they started separating the men from the women I'm sure everyone knew why. I bet it was torment waiting for an opening to get his gun.

I think the most troubling moment must have been after shooting the first intruder. Obviously the other one hears it and either starts shooting the women or has a chance to prepare for the oncoming gun fight. Or, obviously, even taking a hostage.

Glad it worked out the way it did. Obviously a shame that one girl got shot, but I hope she realizes that things were going to go very badly for everyone involved.

I saw a special on tv about a similar situation. The intruders forced the male and female friends to have sex, the women to have sex with each other, and raped the women themselves. Then brought them (naked I believe) out into the snow and killed them one by one. I believe one woman survived being shot and ran through the snow for quite a while to get help. Incredibly sad story. Immediately popped into my head when I read this thread. The killers were caught and found guilty but after those kinds of crimes no legal punishment fits the bill.

Brian Pfleuger
May 7, 2009, 10:45 AM
I emailed it to CCN and told them to run that!

If they do it will be from the standpoint that the BGs were not really going to hurt anybody and this poor girl only got shot because of some wacko with a LEGAL gun who thinks he's Rambo and look how bad is is for people to carry guns around with them.

Dingoboyx
May 7, 2009, 10:59 AM
The report baffles me tho... the quote at least.....

Was there 3 invaders or 2?

The GG shot the guy watching, the gunman jumped out the window & ran? was he the one who was shot?

The second gunman was in a room about to do nasty things to the girls? I thought the gunman jumped out the window? Why would this gunman be about to no nasties to a girl in a small apartment just after a shot was let go in the other room? Surely he would have heard the shot and at least checked it out? (maybe he had other things on his mind? :eek:)

Oh, ok, the first gunman got shot & jumped out the window and died soon after....

Wow, scarey situation..... Good on the GG, I reckon he saved alot of lives....

Whew, +1 for the guy to be carrying, well, packing (back packing) at least

Hope the young lady gets better (fully) real soon

PhoenixConflagration
May 7, 2009, 03:06 PM
I imagine he complied initially because either (like Jofaba said) he needed the chance to get into his backpack, or the fact that the room was full of his friends made him wait until no other option was available. I fully agree that this guy should be given a medal by the mayor (or even the governor) on the steps of city hall. People can armchair quaterback all day long, but all I can say is, "Please, let me be able to act as well as he did if it happens to me."

TMann
May 7, 2009, 03:38 PM
Has this story popped up on any national news sites? I did a quick search of Foxnews and CNN and didn't see it there.

TMann

Mr. Davis
May 7, 2009, 08:20 PM
Not that I've seen. I pulled it from the conservative blog Hot Air.

pax
May 7, 2009, 09:16 PM
Has this story popped up on any national news sites? I did a quick search of Foxnews and CNN and didn't see it there.

Nope, not that I've seen either.

But you know if 10 people had been shot near a college campus, it would have received significant national air time for weeks.

pax

Nnobby45
May 7, 2009, 09:23 PM
Not that I've seen. I pulled it from the conservative blog Hot Air.

Ah, Jeez. :D

http://www.kolotv.com/home/headlines/10930546.html

Kyo
May 7, 2009, 09:27 PM
yea that is what sucks about this crappy media these days. Its all about anti guns this and that. CNN is the largest news out there internet wise, and maybe TV wise too. And they ignore stuff like this. What a horrible news station

onthejon55
May 7, 2009, 09:30 PM
Good shoot!!

Jofaba
May 9, 2009, 07:49 AM
Looks like "the net" is starting to pick this story up;

http://digg.com/world_news/College_Student_Shoots_Kills_Home_Invader?FC=PRCT1

Warning: to anyone not familiar with Digg comments, be prepared to become VERY irritated.

ExtrahoProeliator
May 9, 2009, 08:35 AM
Way to go!!! I think this guy acted responsibly, calmly and with proper restraint. He waited until there was no doubt that he and his friends were in imminent danger of death before he decided to act with the proper force at hand, to end a possible massacre at worst, and a hostage situation at best.

The anti's out there should take note of this story, if they were in this young man's situation, would they have acted as he did, or would they have tried to rationalize the situation and come to a passive conclusion outcome? It was clear that this was not a social call, and these men were not there to sell Avon. They were there for one reason, to commit a crime!!! They came, they saw, they got their asses kicked.

I salute this young man, you did good son...you did good.

YARDDOG(1)
May 9, 2009, 10:41 AM
He done good just hope the girl recovers ;)

Double Naught Spy
May 9, 2009, 01:53 PM
Has this story popped up on any national news sites? I did a quick search of Foxnews and CNN and didn't see it there.
Nope, not that I've seen either.

But you know if 10 people had been shot near a college campus, it would have received significant national air time for weeks.

Right, it isn't so much the amount of those threatened that matters so much as body counts and the like. Had the good guy shot 10 bad guys, that WOULD be on national news in a heartbeat.

Simply put, hero stories are not nearly as exciting as mayhem stories. Hero stories play well on Oprah, but not the 6 o'clock news.

ZeSpectre
May 9, 2009, 06:47 PM
Simply put, hero stories are not nearly as exciting as mayhem stories.
They are to me :mad:

usnavdoc
May 9, 2009, 10:58 PM
I wanted to adress everyones curiosity about why this hasnt made top news headlines. Im from atlanta, College park is firstly nowhere near a college. It is a small town down near our airport. It is in fact the compton of atlanta. when we turn the news on at night and see someone was shot it is generally in this area as it is a high crime/gang/drug environment. I have no idea what college the people involved attended but the nearest one(Ga state) is 20 miles away from college park. Also not sure why college park is named college park lol.

glock06
May 10, 2009, 02:02 AM
And my wife wonders why I carry some type of firearm when I am out all the time??

fatboy02
May 11, 2009, 10:27 PM
This is the reason I carry all the time and tend to stay away from areas I can not carry. This guy went to a friends party planning to have a good time.

This is why we carry all the time,
we carry to to be prepared,
we practice to be prepared,
we hope to never have to draw our weapons, but if we do we are prepared.

txbirddog
May 11, 2009, 10:56 PM
Kudos to the GG.

Compliance UNTIL you think bodily injury (rape, murder etc.), then it changes to OPPORTUNITY to neutralize threat(s). If you do too much second guessing; will they hurt us or not, can and probably will, get you hurt.

Cash can be replaced, credit cards cancelled, but my loved ones, my life and innocents are worth more that any BG's!!

Double Naught Spy
May 12, 2009, 08:05 AM
They are to me

I understand. I too like hero stories. Unfortunately, the media doesn't feel such stories capture the attention of their audience nearly as much. The problem seems to be that hero stories tend to return a situation back to the norm. Mayhem stories take the situation away from the norm and that is what is attention grabbing.

Beentown71
May 12, 2009, 10:25 PM
I wanted to :barf: while reading the comments on Digg and the blog from the local news coverage. I do not understand the "liberal" mind:confused: How do they come to there conclusions? Is there no basic logic in the general publics line of thinking?

Hmmpff!!!

Beentown

enerum
June 8, 2009, 03:41 PM
I also love the whining on Digg about people "hijacking" the article to forward the "Pro-Gun" agenda, when the posts were essentially just praising the GG for a job well done... They seem to have no problems doing the same when it suits their purposes. The way they can twist even an inspiring story makes me want to :barf:

BTW: First post, been trolling for a while though... :o

Tucker 1371
June 8, 2009, 06:28 PM
I normally don't say things like this becuse I normally don't mean them, especially about joe burglar, but in this case I do: I'm glad that little Lavant bastard is dead. In my book, planning to murder and rape a bunch of innocent people puts you in the same category as Hitler, Herman Goering, bin Laden and the like; those kind of people deserve nothing other than to be removed from the earth as quickly as possible as they are the bane of humanity's existence.

This story is especially startling to me because I live in Georgia and I am a college student and I go out to parties and small little get togethers with friends occasionally. To think that someone would want to or even think about doing something like this to people just having a good time makes my blood boil.

sakeneko
June 8, 2009, 07:06 PM
I pretty much agree with the rest of you. If I'd been one of the women in that apartment, I'd have wanted the person with the gun to do exactly what this guy did. Don't escalate the situation as long as it was just a robbery. But once it became clear that they were going to shoot everybody, don't let the possibility of wounding me keep you from shooting them first.

If the bad guys hadn't been stopped, the wounded woman would probably have been dead.

Jofaba
June 8, 2009, 07:10 PM
I'm sorry if I missed it but do we know the fate of the ccp shooter? Do we know the outcome? Is there any link to any web based statement from the girl shot? Or anyone involved, for that matter? I'm interested in how this worked out legally and how it worked out for those involved mentally.