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View Full Version : To stir up old discontent... MA training


MLeake
May 4, 2009, 08:44 PM
I know, I know, there are posters here who feel that any mention of martial arts training is pointless. After all, we have guns, right?

Just thought I'd point out that a narcotics detective buddy of mine was commenting the other day that he has had several dealers pull weapons on him at close range, but that he has not so far fired his own weapon. Without thinking about it, he's instinctively just jammed the guys up and taken their guns away from them.

Please note, I know this guy from the dojo - aikido and ju-jutsu. He's formidable.

Anyway, I mentioned his comments to another friend over the weekend. That friend and I decided to conduct some experiments, from arm's length.

First, he unloaded his SP101, then holstered it. Next, from an arm's length away, he tried to draw, point, and pull. My job was not to let him. We did this from standing, and we also tried it from a seated position, simulating side-by-side in the front seat of a car.

Long story short, over the course of a dozen attempts, he didn't pull the trigger on me once. He did end up with the weapon stuck under his chin nine or ten times. I took it from him every time.

We reversed roles. He didn't have the same luck with me. I "killed" him every time.

The difference? When he tried to draw, I knew to jam him up using all my body weight against his wrist and/or forearm, or to trap him and turn, rotating him around me. OTOH, when I drew, he'd try to overpower my arm using just his own arms (as most people without training will do), so I just stepped back or pivoted out of his grip, using all of my mass against his arm/arms, then "shot" him.

I did the same thing to an Army drill sergeant/weapons instructor last August; we were also playing around with trying to take the M9 out of battery so the attacker couldn't fire. It works well enough, until the attacker fends with the offhand and steps back. Just try to hold the slide out of battery against a retreating, pivoting shooter....

MA training doesn't have to be about knowing how to punch, kick, or grapple somebody into submission. However, knowing how to fend an attacker off could be critical to being able to draw one's own weapon. Knowing how not to get jammed up is very useful. So is knowing how to jam the other guy.

Bear in mind that most of us aren't wearing competition rigs when we CCW; even if we practice clearing the cover garment and then speed-rocking, it will take time. Since it's a mantra in this forum that most attackers will be at close proximity, the conservative assumption is that the BG will be on top of you by the time the weapon clears.

Learn how to move. Learn how to break contact. Learn how to slow him down while you draw.

Later on, you might get fancy and also learn how to disarm, but first you should learn how to just move.

GojuBrian
May 4, 2009, 10:07 PM
I'm with it!! I'm in the white.

I know exactly what you are saying, but you can't tell people, you have to show them. It's easy to think you know what to do, but if you don't train it...

http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv360/sanchin31/IMG005.jpg


http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv360/sanchin31/IMG006.jpg

http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv360/sanchin31/IMG007.jpg

http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv360/sanchin31/IMG009.jpg

:)

5whiskey
May 4, 2009, 10:16 PM
I'm all about martial arts, I don't see why anyone would be against it...

My only concern is that MA be used properly... to buy time to draw a firearm in cases where your life feels threatened. If your life is threatened, then martial arts is a delay tactic until you can bring out the big guns. If your life isn't threatened, then you shouldn't be using MA or drawing a firearm.

Basically, don't use MA as a means to try and incapacitate attacker. That's a good way to get killed. You should do no form of fighting unless it's sanctioned competition, in a dojo or practice field, or if your life is truly in danger. If it's the later option, I'm not going to fight with just feet, fists, armbars, and takedowns unless they decide to run before I've fully drawn my firearm.

To sum it up... yes MA is a good thing. I think everyone should take MA... it may keep you from getting stabbed in the vitals while you are drawing your firearm for SD.

guntotin_fool
May 4, 2009, 10:32 PM
It may have a point for people in law enforcement. but I had a lot of buddies who were into it big time. winning matches, traveling all the time, talking this dojo and that sensei. then cagematches started to show up, and these guys kept showing up for work on about thursday looking like someone had used their head for batting practice. Its like comparing chess to the battle field, there may be some useful concepts, but ones a game, ones real. MA is not real.

5whiskey
May 4, 2009, 10:49 PM
MA is not real.

That's exactly why thousands of police departments, the Marine Corps, Navy Seals, and many other agencies in the world spend millions of dollars to develope MA programs:rolleyes:

Now if you're talking about kids Karate classes... well that's geared more toward developing athleticism and self respect, but with SD aspects mixed in. I wouldn't call it a "real world" martial art though. Brazillion Ju-jitso, among others, are very useful "real world" martial arts.

Kyo
May 4, 2009, 11:53 PM
MA is not real
I wanna see you get on the training mat with some "not real" MA professionals. I am not talking about Tae Kwon Do in a fluffy class. I am talking about Aikido/Jujitsu trained folks.

GojuBrian
May 5, 2009, 02:27 AM
It may have a point for people in law enforcement. but I had a lot of buddies who were into it big time. winning matches, traveling all the time, talking this dojo and that sensei. then cagematches started to show up, and these guys kept showing up for work on about thursday looking like someone had used their head for batting practice. Its like comparing chess to the battle field, there may be some useful concepts, but ones a game, ones real. MA is not real.

HA HA HA!!!! :D Spoken like a true ignoramous!!!

FYI,

Our dojo trains for self defense, not for art, not for competitions. One of the guys is FBI, the other a SWAT member for local PD. :)

Brainflex
May 5, 2009, 03:12 AM
Isn't SD training with a firearm a martial art? To me, it is just an extension of "traditional" martial arts.

GojuBrian
May 5, 2009, 04:09 AM
Yes, but a firearm without hand to hand skills at close range the firearm can/will be used against you.

People seem to think a firearm is an alternative to self defense training, it's not at all.

:)

mikejonestkd
May 5, 2009, 09:05 AM
There is a difference between the skill set that you can obtain by training specifically for SD situations and the art of the sake of the art. I teach the art and have no misconceptions that it is real world situational training, and I am content with that.

Any hand to hand SD training is better than none, I strongly suggest that basic hand to hand SD be a part of everyone's total SD preparedness training.

Dragon55
May 5, 2009, 09:16 AM
A detective friend of mine made me feel like a fool when he demonstrated he could take the top part of my gun off with one swipe.... floored me! (Taurus PT100 ..Beretta Clone)

Good MA training in regards to 'you have the gun' involves creating distance between you and the BG. From 2 feet in you're actually better off with a good dagger.

One more thing BJJ is a sport. It can be a form of self defense but only if there is just 1 BG.

JackL
May 5, 2009, 09:41 AM
I wanna see you get on the training mat with some "not real" MA professionals. I am not talking about Tae Kwon Do in a fluffy class. I am talking about Aikido/Jujitsu trained folks.

From what I've seen, most BJJ folks don't consider Aikido any more "real" than TKD.

On the other hand, if I could resume training in any of the MAs I've taken, I'd go back to Aikido in a shrew's heartbeat.

Then again, I'm far from convinced that BJJ/UFC/whatever they're calling it this week is any more applicable than Aikido for anyone other than a full-time cage fighter.

5whiskey
May 5, 2009, 09:41 AM
One more thing BJJ is a sport. It can be a form of self defense but only if there is just 1 BG.

Yeah, this is true. I think most professional organizations that incorporate MA take a blend of akito and ju-jitsu, with some other stuff mixed in. I know the Marine Corps MA program collects from several different styles.

Housezealot
May 5, 2009, 09:42 AM
A detective friend of mine made me feel like a fool when he demonstrated he could take the top part of my gun off with one swipe
your friend wouldn't happen to be jet li would he?
and you wouldn't happen to be mel gibson would you?:p

Dragon55
May 5, 2009, 09:49 AM
Obviously No on both counts. Just made me feel goofy. He sez gangstas practice this.

MLeake
May 5, 2009, 09:50 AM
I've done this trick, too; I wouldn't say I could do it reliably, maybe 25%-30% of the time. I certainly wouldn't want to count on it working. However, you don't have to be Jet Li.

But pushing the slide slightly out of battery disables the M9 and its clones from firing (trigger disengages), which may buy you a second or two to draw and fire.

There are ways to keep somebody from doing this to your weapon. They are worth learning, and not all that hard to learn.

guntotin_fool
May 12, 2009, 12:47 AM
I may be an ignoramus in your mind, but i have seen what I have seen, and I have yet to see a MA fighter win in a real fight. I bounced for several years, I have seen a couple of thousand real fights, and I stand by my post.


For cops and other law enforcement who are bound by ROE's that do not allow for massive escalation of force without clear reasons, MA does have some points in getting a subdued or resistant person into cuffs. I can see why some would take those classes as an adjunct to real fighting. in a real drop the gloves and spit out the teeth fight, it does not work.

Blue Steel
May 12, 2009, 01:18 AM
But pushing the slide slightly out of battery disables the M9 and its clones from firing (trigger disengages), which may buy you a second or two to draw and fire.

If you're close enough to try this technique you'll probably have better luck with a disarm technique and just take the turds gun away from him.

I bounced for several years, I have seen a couple of thousand real fights, and I stand by my post.

You can stand by your post, but my experience tells me that someone with realistic martial arts combat training with an emphasis on striking & grappling will not be dominated by some drunken brawler.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/MCMAP1insignia.jpg/250px-MCMAP1insignia.jpg

MauiDoc
May 12, 2009, 01:31 AM
I haven't experienced this guy's training personally yet, but I have learned a LOT from his free e-letters and videos that he sends out if you are interested. The free stuff is mostly about the psychology of violence, and the use of violence as a tool when you have no other--and it's being used against you!! He's coming to Hawai'i in July, and I'm hoping to take his course then--will post (if I make it through!).

targetfocustraining.com

Interested to know if anyone on-forum has experienced his stuff--he does teach gun defense, but not per se--it's just another form of fighting to him.

Doc

JustDreadful
May 12, 2009, 04:34 AM
I may be an ignoramus in your mind, but i have seen what I have seen, and I have yet to see a MA fighter win in a real fight. I bounced for several years, I have seen a couple of thousand real fights, and I stand by my post.

The thing is, blanket statements like "MA is not real" ARE ignorant, and indicative of intellectual sloth. Some are good, some aren't. Benchrest target shooting isn't very good preparation for gunfighting, but you can't take that and then say "Shooting practice isn't real." Come to Vegas, look up Frank Mir or Randy Couture, demonstrate to them that their training isn't worthwhile. (Mir was a bouncer for a long time, too, at a well-known local "gentlemen's club". May still be.)

my experience tells me that someone with realistic martial arts combat training with an emphasis on striking & grappling will not be dominated by some drunken brawler.


And that goes too far the other way. There are dirtbags who fight, for real, every weekend. They like it. Some of them are very dangerous.

GojuBrian
May 12, 2009, 10:59 AM
I may be an ignoramus in your mind, but i have seen what I have seen, and I have yet to see a MA fighter win in a real fight. I bounced for several years, I have seen a couple of thousand real fights, and I stand by my post.


And you know these "ma fighters" personally? You've seen them train? I'll bet you've seen people talking trash that said they were trained because they got their green belt when they were 14. :rolleyes:

A real martial artist that utilizes resistance training can whoop any bar brawler any day. A real martial artist trains for several hours a week, is in good physical condition, and this does no good because you say so? What kind of training to you have?

For cops and other law enforcement who are bound by ROE's that do not allow for massive escalation of force without clear reasons, MA does have some points in getting a subdued or resistant person into cuffs. I can see why some would take those classes as an adjunct to real fighting. in a real drop the gloves and spit out the teeth fight, it does not work.

My instructor (local PD SWAT member) is a 4th degree blackbelt, his brother who trains with us is an FBI agent. They both have used our training with great success on th3 d34dly st4eets!! :)

markj
May 12, 2009, 02:49 PM
A real martial artist that utilizes resistance training can whoop any bar brawler any day.

MA is good trasining, however my first Judo instructor told us fiorst day that holding a belt will not make you invincible and a good street fighter will kick our rear ends every day so be careful and always use it in a defensive style.

Now on the other hand I have personally knocked out several black belts in my work as a bouncer, one hit and out went the lights. Not everyone that does MA is a bruce lee, otherwise we would have no need for competition now would we? :)

How do you CCW while wearing a Gi? :)

Them 2 wood things on a chain hurt the back of the head too...

GojuBrian
May 12, 2009, 07:07 PM
MA is good trasining, however my first Judo instructor told us fiorst day that holding a belt will not make you invincible and a good street fighter will kick our rear ends every day so be careful and always use it in a defensive style.


Judo is a sport which can be used as self defense. Not adequate enough though. Judo implements no strikes where is where it starts.

Now on the other hand I have personally knocked out several black belts in my work as a bouncer, one hit and out went the lights. Not everyone that does MA is a bruce lee, otherwise we would have no need for competition now would we?


You know they were blackbelts? I can get a blackbelt off ebay,doesn't make me a blackbelt now does it? I can get a blackbelt from my local tkd in 18months with no prior training. Doesn't make me a blackbelt does it?

You knew these people were blackbelts and you watched how they train? Just a bunch of talk.
Doesn't sound like you were a very good bouncer either. A bouncers job is not to"knock people out." lol...:rolleyes:

How do you CCW while wearing a Gi?

Easier than summer clothes my friend. ;)

Them 2 wood things on a chain hurt the back of the head too...

I have no use for them. :rolleyes:


It's all in the training, the training has to be good. Going twice a week for one hour and working on your kata does not equal good ma training in my book. :rolleyes:

Hirlau
May 12, 2009, 08:00 PM
No response from the OP in over a week; for his post:(

Wake Up, OP !

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk73/typhoonwinds/sleeping.gif

Kyo
May 13, 2009, 01:22 AM
From what I've seen, most BJJ folks don't consider Aikido any more "real" than TKD.

On the other hand, if I could resume training in any of the MAs I've taken, I'd go back to Aikido in a shrew's heartbeat.

Then again, I'm far from convinced that BJJ/UFC/whatever they're calling it this week is any more applicable than Aikido for anyone other than a full-time cage fighter.
Well, most folks are ignorant about it. In a close range situation, I don't want training to hit the guy. I want the training that will let me disarm him, pin him, and make him cry like a little girl with one hand. The fact that Aikido has no attacks is testament to how focused it is on disabling someone instead of hitting/kicking someone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN7yn0XOSMQ this is a half way example. It is another form where they do include attacking. but in close quarters I don't think you can get better then this, you are moving, and forcing them into movement that they don't know.

MLeake
May 13, 2009, 08:51 PM
Morihei Ueshiba himself said that his aikido was 90% atemi, or the strikes and feints that help set up a technique. Most of the good aikidoka I know have backgrounds in karate, TKD, jujutsu, judo, kenpo, wrestling, etc. It's rare to find a serious aikidoka who started with aikido. So there are a wide variety of atemi potentially available to aikido folk.

As far as MA vs bouncers vs brawlers, it depends in large part on who the MA, bouncer, or brawler are.

I will say this, though: If you don't train in one way or another for physical confrontations, you will most likely have your butt handed to you by most MA, bouncers, or brawlers.

But since this is a firearm tactics forum, and we don't want to get too far afield, one of the main benefits to aikido is that it offers a lot of good ways to evade an initial attack or slip out of a grab, hence buying the time necessary to get to your weapon.

Face it, none of us are in condition yellow all the time. Bad people who aren't incredibly stupid will probably do their best not to give advance notice of ill intentions. Training that helps build up evasion and avoidance relexes at first contact could come in very handy; this becomes more true, the deeper your concealment rig is buried.

Obviously, if we had advance notice, we would either a) not still be in the area or b) already have weapon in hand. a) is the better option, when available and ethical (IE we don't leave an elderly woman in harm's way when we leave, etc)

MLeake
May 13, 2009, 08:56 PM
(with regard to pushing a semi-auto's slide out of battery to disable it)
"If you're close enough to try this technique you'll probably have better luck with a disarm technique and just take the turds gun away from him."

First, I agree. Please not post 1 on this thread; if the shooter knows what he's doing, it's very easy to counter this technique. I don't advocate the pushing the slide technique unless you are point blank and have no other option but to do anything to buy time.

It's a lot better idea to get out of the way of the muzzle, and do something along the lines of kotogaeshi to turn the muzzle back on the shooter, and either take the gun away or break his trigger finger - if it works. In any case, getting out of the way and redirecting the muzzle gives you a twofer strategy, while you go for your own weapon.

It's a better idea to not be there in the first place, but we don't always have that option.

Wanpaku1
May 14, 2009, 01:50 PM
I am not claiming to be some sort of master of MA. Just giving my viewpoint. Over the years I've trained Aikido, Judo, Sambo, Muy Thai, boxing and mixed. I've learned a lot of useful and completely useless information for the real world (from alll of them), but I have learned a lot about mindset, body movements, anticipation of opponents actions etc. Just for that, I would say that the training has been worthwhile.

The group I work out with now has a pretty diverse MA background and we all bring what we know, but one of the most interesting and useful things we have is a bunch of training knives, guns and other weapons. It is interesting to see the dynamic of a training session change when, in the middle of sparring, a knife or a gun or a bat (or multiple weapons) is thrown on the mat. It is a totally different mindset when it changes from a "how do I disable/control this guy" to "how do I get control of that weapon or keep him from getting control of that weapon." Changes your priorities real quick.

Martial arts is very useful as long as you are training for the real world and not just to get a pretty colored belt or compete in an overly refereed match.

Kyo
May 14, 2009, 02:30 PM
Priorities change, but when it comes to a weapon too many focus on the weapon part. Instead of worrying about the weapon shouldn't you be worried about disabling the guy who is focused on the weapon?

markj
May 14, 2009, 02:49 PM
Judo is a sport which can be used as self defense.


Judo teaches you how to land on the ground and not get hurt, I recommend learning this first in any MA training program. Also useful as a bouncer with the holds etc. This was in the early 70s BTW.

You know they were blackbelts?

Yes I knew they were, but as a boxer I simply knocked them out, this was not during work tho. Had my rear end handed to me once tho by a Korean guy weighed like 90 lbs wet. Had no belt that I know of.

Doesn't sound like you were a very good bouncer either. A bouncers job is not to"knock people out." lol

I did have a life outside of work dude. Used to fight golden gloves way back when.

MA isnt the end all, do not get into the mind set that it is or you will get your rear handed to you. Lots of very tough people out there.

So just how do you carry in a gi? mine had no pockets :)

I also disarmed a few at work, took their weapons right from them but I have training. Got shot once too, also stabbed in the back of my neck. A bouncers life isnt all looking good and picking up chicks. Was over 20 years ago, I have moved on....

grymster2007
May 14, 2009, 03:06 PM
I'm not real big on the MA. I've just seen too many "expert" MA guys get the crap kicked out of them by a good street fighter. I've been in quite a number of street fights myself and the MA guys I've fought have fared no better and no worse than others. I'm a pretty big guy, but had the most difficulty with little guys and really, really big guys, but their MA experience seemed to matter not.

I have a brother that wrestled throughout high school, into college, then some amateur free style and made it to the Olympic tryouts in '92. I think I could have made a lot of money matching him up against martial arts guys.

Don't get me wrong. Training in hand-to-hand combat is a good thing for most people. I just think a lot of people learn a lot of over-dramatic fluff that merely serves to build dangerously inflated confidence.

MLeake
May 14, 2009, 10:14 PM
For that matter, I wrestled back when. And a lot of the guys I work out with are cops and prison guards. You might say we have a pretty practical mindset. I avoid schools that are too kata or tournament oriented. Not my thing.

You may have missed the earlier post about one of the guys from my current school successfully disarming criminals on multiple occasions, in his work as a narc. I think he found his jujutsu and aikido training up to the task. Then again, he trains hard, with survival as a motivator. Some people just train for their ego.

Note the fable about the hound and the hare: the hound was only running for his dinner, whereas the hare was running for his life...

I'll agree that flash is overrated. Belts may be utterly meaningless, depending on the organization. OTOH, distance, timing, movement, and balance are always useful. I've found myself incorporating aikido principles in activities ranging from skiing to piloting aircraft to handling horses.

Did you ever stop to think that the MA guys you were so unimpressed with either: a) went to a belt mill type of school, or b) weren't truly serious practitioners?

I've seen some street fighters that I would not want to have to take on. However, it's kind of hard to train by street fighting, at least if you can't afford an arrest record or the attendant court costs.

grymster2007
May 14, 2009, 11:00 PM
Did you ever stop to think that the MA guys you were so unimpressed with either: a) went to a belt mill type of school, or b) weren't truly serious practitioners? Nope. The McDojo guys are a joke, I'm talking about the real deal. In my experience, while the serious ones were better, I still didn't think their efforts quite prepared them for what they faced.

I've seen some street fighters that I would not want to have to take on. However, it's kind of hard to train by street fighting, at least if you can't afford an arrest record or the attendant court costs. The good street fighters I've known didn't really care about the life-cost; it's just what they did. But from what I've seen and experienced, martial arts experts and boxers didn't stand a chance against these guys. Not that I recommend gaining hand-to-hand combat abilities through dangerous and/or illegal activities.

... these days I actually recommend love, not war. :)

riggins_83
May 14, 2009, 11:53 PM
A detective friend of mine made me feel like a fool when he demonstrated he could take the top part of my gun off with one swipe
your friend wouldn't happen to be jet li would he?
and you wouldn't happen to be mel gibson would you?

A classic :). That's why I carry a 1911.. let's see Jet Li try to take that gun down with one hand!!!

samurai30047
May 15, 2009, 09:07 AM
I've been hearing the same argument for years. What styles best. Sounds like a bad B movie. It depends on the person of course. I've been in law enforcement for 22 years and half of that in prison. Not all of us take our job seriously but those of us that do have gotten into some type of fighting style. Even my 350 lbs coworker that is somewhat famous for his butterbean style k.o's has had some training in jujitsu. It depends on the situation. For disarm techniques I have to think that Commando Krav Maga is the best one out there. I did it for a while, it's expensive but so are hospital bills. There's no substitute for hands on. I love videos and movies but when we have a minute at work we'll spar a little. Getting choked only hurts till you tap.

5whiskey
May 15, 2009, 09:24 AM
The good street fighters I've known didn't really care about the life-cost; it's just what they did.

And that is why you see some great Martial Artists knocked out by them. It's not that the Martial Artist isn't proficient, or couldn't be VERY dangerous. It's the mindset. Most MAs don't have a desire to do Mortal Combat for lifestyle, regardless of consequences. It's that attitude that "I want to be the baddest man on the block, even if I have to go to prison to do it" that makes one ESPECIALLY dangerous... as they've been in more life and death situations than anyone else just because they choose to put themselves there.

On the other hand, most MAs are taught discipline and restraint. They don't have the desire to cause physical harm, they just know how to should the need arise. They doesn't mean they have a weak mind, it's just an apples to oranges comparison on mindset.

MLeake
May 15, 2009, 01:46 PM
So, you are basically saying that if you can't take on the baddest of the bad, there's no point in training at all.

In which case, there's no point in taking on anybody, but why worry?

fastbolt
May 24, 2009, 02:32 PM
In a way this thread reminds me of conversations among martial arts students back in the early 70's, especially when I read the term "streetfighter". That takes me back.

Most self defense students, and even many intermediate beginners with their shodan or nidan ranking (for those arts which offered belt rankings), were always talking about being able to defend themselves against 'a streetfighter'.

There were always the 'dojo tigers' to be found, too. ;)

I've had an active involvement in the arts for 38 years and spent the better part of almost 3 decades in LE. I have yet to figure out what an actual 'streetfighter' is supposed to be, although I've met a fair number of folks who were willing to fight anyone else, including LE. Some had training and some didn't. Some had local jail & prison time behind them and some didn't. Some had US or foreign military time behind them and some didn't. Some had some foreign criminal activity behind them and some didn't. If they weren't in-custody somewhere they were walking around on the streets. I guess you could say that if they fought while on the streets they were 'streetfighters'. Dunno.

Training in the arts can be a very worthwhile pursuit, although the reason for becoming involved many vary quite a bit from one person to the next. Self defense, sport, physical fitness, physical activity as a hobby or to compliment another favored physical pursuit, because of a job/profession, pursuit of the art, spiritual aspirations, etc., etc. Sometimes people come to it for one reason and stay for quite another. Sometimes people dabble in it and lose interest.

Hobby, rounding out a skill set for a specific set of anticipated circumstances, mindset, lifestyle, etc ... lots of choices.

GojuBrian
May 26, 2009, 06:16 AM
My best guess is the term 'streetfighter' is used for the everyday non-trained brawler one might encounter while out on the town or something along those lines,lol.

Martial arts ,like gun defense, is best implemented by training the way you would fight, but first determine why you are doing martials arts, then determine the best tool for the job.
There is a mindset to have and there is no way to train for every scenario.

Barking that a thug would own a martial artist is very generalized stereotyping typical of someone too lazy to train imo. :p

rburch
May 31, 2009, 11:45 AM
Yes I knew they were, but as a boxer I simply knocked them out, this was not during work tho. Had my rear end handed to me once tho by a Korean guy weighed like 90 lbs wet. Had no belt that I know of.

I may be wrong, but to my way of thinking that Korean was the only true Martial Artist you fought.

Although really streetfighting and boxing are Martial Arts in the basic meaning of the term.

markj
June 1, 2009, 04:27 PM
that Korean was the only true Martial Artist you fought

Wasnt a fight, he was to wrestle me in our training. I was like 245 he was 95 or 100. He could use my weight against me, made me miss knee drop take downs and such. Had a way of just touching me in a place to make me flinch away from him then he would take me down. Hard to describe. He could get a person off balance then he had them.

Tucker 1371
June 1, 2009, 04:52 PM
The two most important things in a hand to hand situation are center of gravity and momentum. The one with the lower CoG has a decisive advantage and the one who can use his opponents momentum against him effectively also has a decisive advantage. The one who has both wins the day.

The most important thing is to be thorough in your training. Practice it until you can't get it wrong. My high school wrestling coach always told me it took something like 4000 repititions before a move would be committed to muscle memory. I hated having to practice the new beginner moves at the beginning of the season until I saw the value in it and now I'm thankful I did.

I would recommend standard folkstyle wrestling as a good base to build off of. From there there are a thousand different ways to go. Right now I'm working on my jiu jitsu along with some kick boxing.

If you've got the funds I'd recommend Krav Maga, the MA used by the Israeli Special Forces. I wanted to do it but my local Martial Arts studio charges something that would come out to about $1800 per semester... only a hair less than I was paying for rent, cable, internet, and utilities combined.

When the SHTF I would rather have a gun but it's always preferable to be able to end a confrontation without one, MA just give you one more step in your response levels.

Naterstein
June 1, 2009, 05:02 PM
A detective friend of mine made me feel like a fool when he demonstrated he could take the top part of my gun off with one swipe.... floored me! (Taurus PT100 ..Beretta Clone)


HAHAHA!!!

nitetrane98
June 1, 2009, 06:16 PM
Just to bring this back into the realm of everyday instances. I have no idea from which disciplines these moves derived but we were taught some "basic come along" or "pain compliance" holds and moves in LE academy. These were so simple and so effective. We had to be so careful not to hurt our training buddy. We were also cautioned about what could happen with overzealous application. They could easily escalate resistance if the guy just didn't get the memo. Later we had gun retention drills, several of which would just about guarantee a broken bone for the BG somewhere if done at full speed. It definitely had to be practiced to stay sharp with. I wished I could have afforded some real training.

MauiDoc
July 3, 2009, 03:34 AM
And there is a problem with this. If the guy you're choking in a real-life situation 'taps out,' whether on purpose or inadvertently, YOU'RE GOING TO LET HIM GO!!! It's [I]ingrained[I] into you, carved into to your psyche by repetition and by socialization. What you train is what you'll do. If you doubt this, walk around to your co-workers, look them in the eye and smile and stick out your right hand. THEY WILL SHAKE IT. It's automatic. You can do it over and over. They'll look at you funny, but they can't stop. The same applies to training--never train to tap out--pay attention as you train, don't (overly) injure or kill your partner, but NEVER let your partner determine when a technique is completed. It could cost you dearly.

Koz
July 6, 2009, 08:02 PM
And there is a problem with this. If the guy you're choking in a real-life situation 'taps out,' whether on purpose or inadvertently, YOU'RE GOING TO LET HIM GO!!! It's [I]ingrained[I] into you, carved into to your psyche by repetition and by socialization. What you train is what you'll do. If you doubt this, walk around to your co-workers, look them in the eye and smile and stick out your right hand. THEY WILL SHAKE IT. It's automatic. You can do it over and over. They'll look at you funny, but they can't stop. The same applies to training--never train to tap out--pay attention as you train, don't (overly) injure or kill your partner, but NEVER let your partner determine when a technique is completed. It could cost you dearly.

Socialization by your friends and training partners

Not by some guy that has attacked you and you are trying to severely injure.

Re4mer
July 6, 2009, 10:58 PM
Just thought I'd point out that a narcotics detective buddy of mine was commenting the other day that he has had several dealers pull weapons on him at close range, but that he has not so far fired his own weapon. Without thinking about it, he's instinctively just jammed the guys up and taken their guns away from them.

No offense, but I have to comment on this story. First of all I have also trained in martial arts for many years myself and I can assure you that if a guy gets the drop on you, with a loaded gun, with a round in the chamber, there is little that can be done if the person is reasonably proficient and willing to pull the trigger. All the ninja skills in the world wont save you because the trigger finger is almost always faster than any full body,arm, or hand movement can be. Its just reality.

The reason why your friend was able to disarm these guys was probably that they either had no clue what they were doing with a gun or they weren't really willing to go all the way and they were just show boating with the gun trying to act tough as drug dealers often do. Had they really wanted to shoot him they just would have done it no questions asked and not just pulled the gun and waited for his ninja move.

I was doing "gun defense" with an MA instructor one time years ago. He said that he could disarm me easily. As he walked over to demonstrate I pulled out the fake demo gun and went bang bang bang! He said "That wasn't fair you didn't let me get ready..."

This not to say that martial arts are no good I just think that these kind of stories are the exception and not the rule.

MLeake
July 6, 2009, 11:20 PM
The point is to not let the guy get the drop on you, by not letting him get his weapon aimed at you in the first place.

Up close and personal, the idea is to jam the draw. My friend has done exactly that, on multiple occasions. Your analysis is off because it assumes the BG has the drop in the first place - the fact that hasn't happened to my friend isn't a matter of luck, it's a matter of awareness and aggressiveness.

Undercover narcotics officer watches for any indication that BG will draw a weapon of any sort. At first indication, undercover officer closes from arm's length to full contact, and wraps the guy up as brutally and quickly as possible. Muzzle of weapon is directed at BG from moment weapon begins to clear. BG can choose to pull trigger on self, or release weapon. BG sometimes gets arm or wrist broken while figuring this out.

You've trained, you say? Have you ever tried to draw a weapon with a jujitsu guy on top of you? Not across the room, but in the front seat of the car with you. Or on the stool next to yours at the bar?

I'm guessing the "martial arts instructor" you had your training episode with wasn't a cop or an infantryman. When my friend is working a dealer, he doesn't have to get ready, he's mentally already there.

At the schools where I've trained, 1/3 to 1/2 of the students have been police or corrections officers. A high percentage have been active or prior military. Many of the guys have had to defend themselves against blades or clubs, and at least a couple have had to deal with firearms.

Sorry if this is outside your statistical norm. It's not outside for my training circle's. If you want to try your weapon drill with my friend or one of our other instructors some time, drop me a PM and I'll give you directions to the dojo. Bear in mind, though, the scenario would be starting out at close range, with the weapon concealed, and your hand not on it.

grymster2007
July 7, 2009, 08:48 AM
If you doubt this, walk around to your co-workers, look them in the eye and smile and stick out your right hand. THEY WILL SHAKE IT. It's automatic. You can do it over and over. They'll look at you funny, but they can't stop. They looked at me funny all right, but no one shook my hand. Maybe that's because I'm so popular? :)

As for taking someone's gun away, I think that often people with a gun don't expect someone to just take it from them and that makes it much easier to just take it from them. Maybe the fact that they have a gun in their hand gives them some false confidence.

matolman1
July 7, 2009, 09:25 AM
I have been taking Krav Maga since my time in the IDF in the late 90's and I continue to take and instruct (lower levels) here in TN. Krav Maga is the Israeli Military hand to hand combat. Very much a "to the point" fighting style and not difficult to learn.

I think that unarmed combat is very important and probably more useful than armed combat in the general day to day interactions most civillians and LE come into contact with.

sakeneko
July 7, 2009, 11:22 AM
I'm not a martial artist: last time I took any martial art was when I was twelve or thirteen years old. (Summer camp karate.) However, I've known some military guys, some of them with a full 25 or more years, who learned martial arts right along with their weapons training. They tell me that, properly taught and learned, the skills from any non-weapon martial art are at least 90% applicable to a fight using a gun or other weapon.

I'm seriously considering taking up judo, mostly to improve my physical fitness but figuring it will also help me be more aware of my body and more able to make *it* behave the way my mind tells it to. :)

fastbolt
July 7, 2009, 03:32 PM
They tell me that, properly taught and learned, the skills from any non-weapon martial art are at least 90% applicable to a fight using a gun or other weapon.

Good observation and comment.

MLeake
July 7, 2009, 08:45 PM
... when taught properly, martial arts teach: balance; timing; breath control; ability to focus and move under duress; ability to read a potential opponent, based on both body language (what does he seem likely to do) and stance (what will his current position and balance allow him to do in the next instant?); self-discipline.

Which of those things would not be beneficial to anybody, armed or unarmed, who might have to defend against those who would do harm?

grymster2007
July 7, 2009, 09:15 PM
Which of those things would not be beneficial to anybody, armed or unarmed, who might have to defend against those who would do harm? Granted, those things would prove beneficial.... given someone that understands their limitations and more importantly, doesn't let over-inflated self-confidence put them at undue risk. And therein lies the thing I see wrong with most people practicing MA. My personal perception is that most (not all) people that practice the arts, can't help but develop misguided confidence that places them in more danger than had they not. Some flaw of the nature of humans I suppose, but in my mind it renders the whole idea useless..... or worse, for most people.

MLeake
July 7, 2009, 09:23 PM
... the harder it should be to get over-confident. Stuff works, except when it doesn't. There are plenty of times in training when it doesn't. Ideally, though, that teaches not to fixate on any given technique, and just keep moving and looking for openings.

To paraphrase Sun T'zu, the man who knows his enemy is powerful, but the man who knows himself (strengths and limitations) is stronger still.

buck9
July 7, 2009, 09:46 PM
I live and loved the arts. Was very confident with who I was and what I could do. Then came mma it changed my mind. Then I learned about guns and it changed my mind again. In my humble opinion if a person no matter their stature can maintain their distance and see the laser dot and pull the trigger they will win every time even against even the best in the arts.

MLeake
July 7, 2009, 10:07 PM
However, there is merit in saying that if you can prevent the draw in the first place, it's to your advantage.

There is also merit in suggesting that sometimes, the only options available are all pretty bad; if you have no idea how to pursue them, but have to try anyway, your options are that much worse.

And there is merit in suggesting that sometimes having at least some amount of training in handling a physical altercation will give you time to get your own weapon into play.

Of course, not every BG will have a firearm, or even a weapon. Now what will you do? Strongarm robbery may not justify deadly force in your area. Do you have any other options, or are you stuck with 1) do nothing and be a compliant victim, or 2) draw a weapon and risk aggravated assault charges if you are in one of those jurisdictions that does not allow deadly force or its threat against strongarm robbers?

grymster2007
July 8, 2009, 08:20 AM
However, there is merit in saying that if you can prevent the draw in the first place, it's to your advantage. Agreed. I once took a guy's gun from him. I was not quick enough to prevent the draw, but I closed the gap between us so fast that it completely shocked him when I wrenched it from his hand and knocked him to the floor. I think the gun made him over-confident and he assumed that merely pointing it would keep him safe.

OTOH, while I prevailed, my actions weren't so bright.... but that's what 20 year old kids do sometimes. These days, thirty years later, I would express my grievances against him in a courtroom. :)

Kishido
July 8, 2009, 09:18 AM
+1 on Krav Maga training, it's simple enough to be assimilated quickly but it does work on the street. I have trained in several traditional arts and they are all great but there is a need to tweak them for SD. Marc MacYoung has a great book called "Taking It To the Streets" a must read for practitioners of all types.

I think it better to train thoroughly with a handful of techniques and be able to perform them during an adrenaline dump than to know 50 ways to defend against a firearm but get confused when tired and scared.
I also humbly submit that any technique which is designed to take an opponent to the ground be avoided, since you don't know where his buddies are.
That being said, knowing some good groundwork is helpful if the fight does go to the ground. I'm 5'10 and 170lbs, and there are plenty of wayyyy bigger people out there. Over the years I've gotten pretty good at not going to ground but it does happen. (busted a couple ribs on one of those concrete wheel stop thingys in a parking lot)

stephen426
July 8, 2009, 09:32 AM
I think a lot of you guys are missing the point of the original post. We are not talking about martial artists against street fighters or martial arts against a loaded gun. I'm pretty sure the main point of the original post was to encourage us to supplement our self-defense training with some form of martial art.

I did a few years of Tae Kwon Do back high school and I still practice a little on my own. Am I going to find some street fighter to hone my skills? Heck no! Is it possible that a good street fighter will kick my butt? Most probably. Is it better to not know anything? DEFINITELY NOT!

It has also been mentioned several times, but I will say it again... It is often times the fighter and not the style that determines the outcome. Boxers will take shots that would knock most people down, if not out. They also know how to hit pretty darn hard. If you take a martial artists that competes based on points or contact, the boxer will mop the floor with him. Now if you take someone who is serious about their art and trains regularly, their chances of success improve dramatically.

stephen426
July 8, 2009, 09:43 AM
This post is totally unrelated to my previous post so I figured I'd start a new post:

I was thinking that if I was confronted by a person holding a gun at me, what would be the most effective way to defend myself. I know that most people would say just give up whatever the bad guy is asking for. The problem is that many people have been shot after giving up without resistance. For arguements sake, lets assume that the there is an opportunity to resist and that the bad guy has given indications that he will probably shoot you no matter what.

Assuming that the bad guy was within striking distance, (has the gun pointed at you with his arm extended), what do you feel would be the most effective disarming technique. My concern with gun grabs is you are dealing with an unknown attacker. His reaction time may be very fast and he may be very strong. Gun grabs require fine motor movements and a missed gun grab will probably be deadly.

I was thinking the best thing to do is feign compliance first. You have to make sure you don't project your intentions by staring at what or when you are going to attack. I would go for a simple sweep if the gun and a good hard groin kick. You have to follow this up immediately with additional strikes and get a hold of the weapon. Do you guys think this would work (as a last ditch effort)?

Kishido
July 8, 2009, 09:55 AM
You mean I misunderstood the OP and posted something unrelated? Wow what are the chances of that? :D Sorry Stephen. I have a couple of friends here in Colorado Springs that I have pestered to get training and even offered to bring in some sparring equipment but with little success. The idea that "I don't need that stuff, I have a gun" is the response I usually get... You guys know who you are! I'm looking at you Ed! :)

Anyways, check out this vid with Darren Levine it might help:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1tvk6r2DXY&feature=related

sakeneko
July 8, 2009, 09:57 AM
Anything could work, especially if the choice is between doing it and doing nothing. IMHO the biggest advantage to martial arts training is that it increases the number of options you have when facing an attacker, and in many cases provides the mental discipline necessary to make good choices from those options.

GojuBrian
July 8, 2009, 02:27 PM
Martial arts training is also beneficial in that it will teach you what you CAN do and what you thought you could do.
The biggest thing I've learned from martial arts is my own abilities and limitations and how to use them to my best advantage.

http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv360/sanchin31/IMG007.jpg

http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv360/sanchin31/IMG008.jpg

http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv360/sanchin31/IMG005.jpg

Do a style where you'll get hands on training in striking distance, clinch, and ground training.

porkskin
July 9, 2009, 07:23 AM
GojuBrian,

There is a place to test your skills, and make some cash too. The cage. It bothers me when people from any Karate based art try to equate their training to Muay Thai, BJJ, Judo< Wrestling, or Boxing. GojuBrian, I will grant you that you appear to be training with live resistance, so training looks good. Google Charles "krazy Horse" Bennett. You will see a Cage fighter with no formal training and a criminal record who has beaten many well trained fighters. In my mind's eye, the people we are training to defend ourselves more closely resemble Charles that our training partners. The bad guys don't always do what we who train together know to do

MLeake
July 9, 2009, 08:49 AM
Porkskin,

there are people out there who will kick most of our butts regardless of our training levels. So what?

There are plenty of BG's out there who are not cage fighters. In fact, the vast majority of them probably are not all that skillful.

Are you suggesting that if you can't take the baddest of the bad, that training is useless?

porkskin
July 9, 2009, 08:58 AM
What I am saying is I have known many people who had confidence in an unapplicable MA, and when needed for real world applications, were let down. I am saying that if there is no realistic MA in your area, then select the best school you can, but something in krav maga, combatives WW2, western boxing, or wrestling will get you the furthest. A street fight has more in common with a hockey fight than a MMA event. Anyone who rebuts that is in denial. Go to Southnarc's forum or Gabe Suarez forum and see what force on force really looks like. It is unpredictable and people are wearing street clothes, not gi's. My expirience, which is mostly what not to do, would be to clinch an opponent, use dirty boxing strikes, and then get the hell away.

DT Guy
July 9, 2009, 10:00 AM
In every population (the people currently shopping in the same store with you, the people at the same ballgame as you, the people in your neighborhood, etc.), you will have a proportion of those people whose fighting skills exceed your own, a proportion of those people whose skills do not match your own and a very large number whose skills so closely match your own that circumstances, variables and luck will determine who prevails.

The job of training is to decrease the relative size of the first and last groups, and increase the relative size of the second to increase your odds should a fight develop.

That's all MA really does-it slightly shifts the odds for and against you in any population, with the nature of the population having great impact on how much the MA helps.

Rumble in the preschool? You may be all set. Bar fight? Could be trickier. 'Roid rage at the local Gold's Gym? Hmmmmm........

MLeake
July 9, 2009, 10:01 AM
... is that I know many police officers and corrections officers who have defeated real world attacks by real, not theoretical, BG's using a blend of aikido and jujutsu.

What I am also saying is that the style matters less than the practitioner's training regimen, which I think is a point of agreement.

In the case of one of the CO's, before he started training, he was attacked by a prisoner with a shiv. He froze up, and took the shiv in the shoulder. Other CO's subdued the attacker.

He hadn't been training with us for a year before the next attack. This time, a trustee on a road crew the CO was supervising got mad over being told to extinguish a cigarette, so he attacked the CO with a bush axe. This time, CO moved to inside the attack radius, took the bush axe, and hip threw the attacker in one move. Attacker was knocked out when his head hit the ground.

There are other real world examples I could list, from people with whom I have trained.

It's better to have more tools available, given the option to acquire them. MA training of some sort is a potentially useful tool. The practitioner is responsible for the quality of his own training, and for his own expectations.

stephen426
July 10, 2009, 05:59 AM
What I am saying...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

... is that I know many police officers and corrections officers who have defeated real world attacks by real, not theoretical, BG's using a blend of aikido and jujutsu.

What I am also saying is that the style matters less than the practitioner's training regimen, which I think is a point of agreement.

In the case of one of the CO's, before he started training, he was attacked by a prisoner with a shiv. He froze up, and took the shiv in the shoulder. Other CO's subdued the attacker.

He hadn't been training with us for a year before the next attack. This time, a trustee on a road crew the CO was supervising got mad over being told to extinguish a cigarette, so he attacked the CO with a bush axe. This time, CO moved to inside the attack radius, took the bush axe, and hip threw the attacker in one move. Attacker was knocked out when his head hit the ground.

There are other real world examples I could list, from people with whom I have trained.

It's better to have more tools available, given the option to acquire them. MA training of some sort is a potentially useful tool. The practitioner is responsible for the quality of his own training, and for his own expectations.

Excellent point. I only trained for a few years and don't practive that frequently, the training I received greatly improved my reactions and blocking ability. Basically, I was taught how to move more effectively and to use my force more effectively.

Edward429451
July 18, 2009, 09:22 PM
:D

Deaf Smith
July 19, 2009, 10:49 AM
At close range you do not have to be good.... just fast.

Inside a few feet, as long as you do not telegraph your moves, you can get inside another persons OODA loop. Just takes practice.

I highly recommend the martial arts. The ones like TKD, or Shotokan, or Shorin-Ryu, are more formal and have kata, lanuage studies, and are very styalistic. Some of these are 'hard styles', while others, like many of the Kung Fu, are soft styles. Some belive in attack, others counter-attack.

Others, like Krav Maga, are pure self defense and do not have anywere near the regimentation as the others. No language, no kata, not much bowing, etc.... But they do have alot of PT, good SD methods, and contact, all to the good.

I say this being a 5th dan TKD and a Krav Maga practitioner.

So get off your duff and go work out. It will do wonders for you and give you a backup skill just in case you don't have a convenient weapon. In fact, as has been said by many, the real weapon is your mind.