threat is down... 911 is called...what to say/not say [Archive]

KingEdward

May 4, 2009, 12:14 PM

If anyone has personal experience or suggestions or especially legal knowledge/view, please submit

BG has broken/entered. Has either threatened me or is proceeding with visible weapon towards sleeping area (it's late night / early morning).

In lieu of threat (opportunity, ability, jeopardy) BG is fired upon and hit multiple times and falls and breathes last in the hallway of a 2 BR apartment.

I don't touch anything. I re-secure/close door and make sure no other threats are present (and let's say there are no other threats). Then I lay firearm on dining table and call 911.

as it progresses and the stress level builds, what do I say/not say, do/not do?

IMO this is a trying time to keep your emotions in check and not make a verbal/mental mistake.

Flapjack23

May 4, 2009, 12:22 PM

This is my home. This is my firearm. I would like to speak to my attorney.

hogdogs

May 4, 2009, 12:24 PM

While I may not be able to maintain intended composure, My planned and practiced call is basically to state that there has been an intruder shot and he is down. I need police. I cannot hear you as my hearing is temporarily diminished and my weapon is safe and I am awaiting the patrol to arrive...
Of course address is given.
Once police arrive I will respond with up raised hands until they are confident no threat is posed.
From TFL I have decided I need to decline questioning without a lawyer present...
Brent

onthejon55

May 4, 2009, 12:29 PM

Just let them know there was an intruder and that you fired and need police. All 911 calls are recorded so say just enough to get the police there so they can decide what happened. It would really suck to accidentally say something that could jurt you in court.

A_McDougal

May 4, 2009, 12:40 PM

On the 911 call, I would advise to say 'shots were fired' rather than "I shot". Don't deny or conceal anything, but focus on only giving the information that is critical at that moment.

While you are waiting, depending - take photos. Without disturbing evidence, if you can get your camera, or cell phone camera, preserve information for yourself (and your lawyer, if it comes to that).

KingEdward

May 4, 2009, 12:42 PM

I never gave one thought to photos. I have digital cam as well as
video cam ready to go.

rainmaker870

May 4, 2009, 12:45 PM

Ask them to send an ambulance along with the police. Speaks to a demonstration of concern for your attacker.

hogdogs

May 4, 2009, 12:49 PM

With taking pics... Isn't there a possible risk of coming across too callous or even "pre-meditated" that you were able to think clearly to take pics and record evidence? It is kinda understood that most everyone involved in an SD/HD shooting is going to be lost in hysterics or passing a manslaughter off as a SD shooting. I hope I am wrong and only a few officials think this way.
Brent

edmondsonpr@yahoo.co

May 4, 2009, 12:52 PM

Since you are being recorded, say there was an intruder in your house and you were afraid for my life and my families safety. I shot him, send an ambulance and police immediately. Give your address and hang up.
That tells the lawyers you were acting in self defense and did not have a desire to hurt the intruder. That keeps the prosecuting attorney for the dead person's family a hard time attacking you.

R1145

May 4, 2009, 12:58 PM

1. Establish personal safety, and safety of others;

2. Secure the scene: Don't touch or remove anything, or allow anyone else to. Do not clear or reload your weapon.

3. Get witnesses' contact information. Get license plate numbers, or ask them to remain to talk to the cops. Get business cards or phone numbers.

4. If appropriate, offer first aid and/or call for medics.

5. Secure your weapon, and anticipate the arrival of police. Avoid getting shot by them. Cooperate if they prone you out, etc.

6. Answer basic questions directly and briefly. Use common sense, don't be evasive, but stick to the facts. Don't make any statements except for basic facts the first responders need to do their jobs (descriptions of other suspects, possible witnesses, which way they went, location of weapons, etc.). Other than that, request to speak with an attorney and respectfully refuse to answer questions without one present. Stick to the truth. Don't lie, even a little.

7. When in doubt, keep your mouth shut. Prepare to be taken to jail. Definitely don't talk to anyone in jail about anything related to the case. Don't blog. Don't talk to the press. Tell your family not to talk to the press. Don't worry about anything you read in the paper or see on TV.

8. Let the chips fall where they may. The system makes some allowance for mistakes but not lies or cover-ups. You're the good guy. Tell the truth (with your attorney present...).

hogdogs

May 4, 2009, 01:02 PM

Depending on how you post on TFL or other such forums, you may want to send a few balls of hot lead thru the hard drive area of the chassis.
Brent

KingEdward

May 4, 2009, 01:03 PM

i am thinking defended myself vs. saying shot or fired.

on second thought, I might take a picture or two but
response time where I live is 2 min or less usually (I have experience with south Nashville police response) and I can see where me holding a camera over a fallen person could raise eyebrows.

R1145

May 4, 2009, 01:18 PM

Reading some of the other replies, I want to add:

Don't try to "spin" the story. Semantics like "I shot" vs. "Was shot" are when things start to slide down the slippery slope. Lawyers will twist anything you say, so don't over-think it. Yes, your 911 call is being recorded, but avoid trying to justify it on the phone. What about "A man has been shot. Please send paramedics and police." ?

Don't do things for appearance sake. Call the ambulance because it's the right thing to do, not because it will look good in court.

Once you shoot someone, regardless of circumstance, you ARE the investigation. Photos or a video may help identify witnesses, but, overall, I think you'll be too busy and flustered for it.

Keltyke

May 4, 2009, 01:31 PM

i am thinking defended myself vs. saying shot or fired.

Say NOTHING except the barest of facts until you talk to a lawyer and have him present during questioning - as is your right. Do very little. Safety and/or holster your gun.

Yes, you're the good guy, but the cops don't know that.

"This person broke into my house and I was in imminent fear for my life. I shot him." Do not answer unsolicited questions. Cops have a way of getting you relaxed and off guard and then you say something you wish you hadn't.

scottaschultz

May 4, 2009, 02:17 PM

You keep a loaded firearm (or more than one) in the house because you truly believe there is a real possibility that at some point in the future, you might need it to defend and protect your family and property. You very carefully chose the weapon(s) and loads and practice religiously with them. You might have even taken an NRA class and/or a CCW class. Since you have put so much thought and time into preparing for that time you pray (or hope) never comes, why not take this one step further by writing out a brief list of things to say when you call 911 and post it next to all of the telephones that could be used after the threat has been taken care of. You might also want to print this out on a small card, laminate it and put it in your wallet/purse in case you can't get to your phone or use a cell phone.

You have just shot at and possibly killed someone and it is likely you may not be thinking too clearly. There are a lot of great suggestions here and maybe we can collectively come up with a list of things to put on this card. Input from LE personnel would be most welcome.

1. Stay calm (or at least try to)
2. Don't touch anything
3. Call 911
4. Call your lawyer. (Don't have one? Get one! If you think that one day you may put a bullet in someone, you will NEED a lawyer and trying to find one after the fact is probably not the best time to go looking)

As far as taking your own crime scene photos, I am not sure how the court will look on this. If the pictures were not taken by a recognized crime scene investigation unit, it is probably doubtful they will be allowed to be used as evidence, especially if they were taken by one of the parties involved.

Scott

KingEdward

May 4, 2009, 02:36 PM

so keeping it simple it might look like this:

1. call 911 - prior to this, do not disturb the scene.

2. give location (address) and give my description

3. the emergency is: shots have been fired.

4. please send an ambulance

5. make sure whomever arrives does not perceive me as a threat (gun in secure condition and away from my person)

6. keep any reponses initially to brief words and be truthful

7. call my attorney and get him present before any statements are made or
any lengthy question/answer sessions take place

8. have a cooperative and willing attitude with Police and others and if taken in custody, be relaxed and calm.

9. Let my attorney earn his money.

Lee Lapin

May 4, 2009, 02:37 PM

If the 911 tape includes sounds of the B&E in progress, the homeowner yelling stopdropyourweapontheolicehavebeencalledstoporI'llshoot etc, there would be less to be explained to lots of people later. You'd be surprised how much a phone microphone will pick up...

In other words, call 911 as soon as possible.

lpl

Hellbilly5000

May 4, 2009, 06:20 PM

best advice I can give is even if you know the guy is dead have 911 walk you through live saving measures (laugh as you might but it just may save your butt in court)

Coyote Hitman

May 4, 2009, 07:11 PM

Odd how being honest, forthright, doing the right thing, and accepting responsibility for one's actions takes a backseat.

I recommend calling the police and answering the questions the dispatcher asks you. They are trained to handle the incident, most citizens are not. Responding officers need facts, fail to provide them and you will place yourself in undue danger.

It amazes me the number of folks who see an attorney as a saving grace. Attorneys care about being paid--nothing more, nothing less.

Anyone who thinks they are going to shoot someone and say nothing about it to first responders are living in a fantasy land.

Jofaba

May 4, 2009, 07:20 PM

I actually learned something from this thread, and so I thank you all.

Yes, we are training for that moment. We chose a specific weapon, a specific brand of ammo, a specific load of ammo, and personally trained for this exact scenario. So going the extra distance and conferring with YOUR lawyer (not just A lawyer) on how you should word your call, is excellent advice. Even if anyone answering has the proper answer for you, you shouldn't be trusting your life and freedom to our opinions.

So I will definitely be getting a lawyer before carrying once my CCP goes live.

Now here's a question, what does "getting a lawyer" even mean, to those of us who never had one. Do you pay for a single meeting, discuss why you need one, keep the card and store it for when you might need it? Does that make him "on call"? How do you choose a lawyer who will be available for when you need him? I'm not rich, and in the end this guy just wants money, so do I have to get approved by him? If I don't have much cash when I need him, how do I secure his services and build up that debt? It's not lilke this kind of court case would be short and inexpensive.

rjrivero

May 4, 2009, 07:21 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

The 5th Ammendment is your friend.

Coyote Hitman

May 4, 2009, 07:33 PM

Jofaba, you can place an attorney on retainer. Fees will vary. Simply talk to a few "reputable" ones, wade through their BS, and choose the best of the worst--kinda like voting.:rolleyes:

Only S&W and Me

May 4, 2009, 07:58 PM

Yes, same question here....BG breaks in and you defend yourself...how to get lawyer at say 3-4am? What to do if you can't get one and you get taken into the station?

Keltyke

May 4, 2009, 09:01 PM

how to get lawyer at say 3-4am?
You can use the Public Defender temporarily. You don't have to keep him. Use your one phone call to call someone who will get a lawyer to you ASAP. If you're charged, you may have to spend the night in jail until bail is set.

troy_mclure

May 4, 2009, 11:50 PM

always, always, ask for an ambulance, even if the guys brain is splashed on the wall.

hogdogs

May 5, 2009, 12:17 AM

Good point Troy, They gonna need a bone wagon anyway so may as well come across as a caring feller no matter what...
Brent

Nnobby45

May 5, 2009, 12:42 AM

I don't touch anything. I re-secure/close door and make sure no other threats are present (and let's say there are no other threats). Then I lay firearm on dining table and call 911.

I don't lay my firearm anywhere until I see flashing lights coming down the street. Certainly not while I'm calling 911. You can assume Bubba was alone, but, as Clint Smith says, Wolves travel in packs.

Some legal authorities have changed their opinions about doing a perfect imitation of a guilty person by immediately lawyering up while Bubba lay on the sidewalk in a pool of blood, making a great immitation of a victim.

A BRIEF account of what happened before you zip it up can work to your benefit.

I highly recommend the tapes put out by the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, LLC.

Especially the one: "Handling the Immediate Aftermath of a Self-Defense Shooting" by Mas Ayoob and Marty Hayes.

When you join, as I did, you get all the tapes anyway. Ayoob, Hayes, Tueller, Farnum and others make this new org. worth taking a look at.

http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/

hogdogs

May 5, 2009, 12:46 AM

Nnobby, not all of us are blessed enuff to afford a 10 dollar DVD at El Marto del Wal let alone a membership to a top notch SD/HD .org like you mention although I do see the value...
Brent

Nnobby45

May 5, 2009, 12:55 AM

Nnobby, not all of us are blessed enuff to afford a 10 dollar DVD at El Marto del Wal let alone a membership to a top notch SD/HD .org like you mention although I do see the value...
Brent

I suppose that's true, but even fewer can afford to lose our life savings defending ourselves in a matter where we had no choice.

Don't remember for sure, I think I paid $90 for a membership plus tapes. That's less than I shoot up in ammo in a month.

Great site even if you don't join.

scottaschultz

May 5, 2009, 01:08 AM

hogdogs

May 5, 2009, 01:09 AM

I ain't shot 90 bucks of ammo in the last several years put together:o... sux to be po' folk where every centerfire round has to put meat in the freezer and 25% of the .22LR is to feed dogs and snake...:o
Brent

skydiver3346

May 5, 2009, 08:17 AM

This is what I would do in this particular scenario:
KEEP IT SIMPLE: Get straight to the point and no extra embellishments, etc.

Example: Call 911 and asked them to please send police to your home/apt asap. That intruder has broke in your home. Shots fired and the intruder is down. Please come as quickly as you can........YOU ARE SCARED!

Thats it, nothing more! No matter if they try and get you to say more (other than your address, which they should automatically have on their screen). As others have already mentioned, these 911 calls are recorded and anything else you say could be misconstrued and maybe used againist you. Put down your weapon as soon as you have "cleared" the house and secured doors, etc. Then just try and remain as calm as possible (hard to do I am sure) and wait for police. Then YOU tell the story.....

NOTE: This advice was given to me by a homicide detective friend of mine with our city police dept.

goodspeed(TPF)

May 5, 2009, 08:29 AM

Call your Attorney FIRST!

Lee Lapin

May 5, 2009, 09:36 AM

KE,

Go to http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/02_StudyDay.htm and study a bit. There's a glossary at the end of the thread at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=396584 that might help with the article linked above.

Find yourself a good criminal defense attorney who knows case law in your jurisdiction. Most don't charge for a first consultation. Even if you have to buy an hour of time to get your basic questions answered though, it's worth it. And keep the attorney's business card handy afterward.

If you can manage it, LFI-1 is great training- http://www.ayoob.com/LFIschedule.html .

hth,

lpl

Enoy21

May 5, 2009, 09:47 AM

Can they legally use the 911 call to prosecute you , given the fact that you had not yet been read your rights ? I realize this is often movie mumbo jumbo and that reading of the rights is not a court dismissive technicality.... but I was just wondering.

I know they record it for information , but I'm with the guys who say tell the truth , don't over think it.

For me , I would think I would want to try and see if the person is still alive , check for pulse , administer CPR if possible etc... ( screwing with the crime scene though ) I would want an ambulance regardless of legalities.

And I would imagine , in 90% of the cases they will know that you are in a heightened sense of terror/fear/adrenaline.

Be honest , tell the truth , answer all questions from the 911 operator... She/he's not trying to " set you up" She/he is trying to protect her policemen and provide them with as much information as possible pruior to arriving on site.

hogdogs

May 5, 2009, 09:51 AM

I assume they can use the 911 call as you have not yet been "arrested" when the call was placed, thus you haven't come under the miranda rules yet. Also the call is public information...
But I am just guessing...
Brent

Enoy21

May 5, 2009, 09:58 AM

I was not aware they were public information .... Here is an interesting site :

http://www.911callers.com/

I plan on checking out several of them when time allows.

hogdogs

May 5, 2009, 10:04 AM

You ever hear a 911 call played on the evening news?;) Thus it is public...
Brent

Enoy21

May 5, 2009, 10:09 AM

lol yes , I assumed it was only released on approved circumstances. Perhaps in cases where the trial was finished and could not skew jury selection process.

Is it something you can find locally .....

Can I search my local law enforcement records ? Or is it a special request only or what ?

My neighboring City had it's first murder in the past 10 years last year. ( at the grocery store I often shop and had planned to be at that very day )

I would like to hear the 911 calls at that store.

KingEdward

May 5, 2009, 10:18 AM

Thanks Lee,

the Legal principles info will be reviewed today. Great information.

thanks much

5whiskey

May 5, 2009, 10:22 AM

I think the important thing is to use only that force necessary. Shoot BG until he no longer becomes a threat. Now, I understand that will be a panic situation (trust me I've been there), but you should be able to recognize when BG no longer presents a threat. Then immediately secure him via any means possible and make sure there are no other weapons on him. I keep flexi-cuffs, and I think it's perfectly acceptable to use them initially. Then call 911 and administer first aid. You may have to take the cuffs off for first aid, but this will be a judgement call. You should keep your weapon on you in case any other BGs do happen to be present, but there is a danger of it being used as you provide first aid. Be wary of un-securing someone, but sometimes it has to be done.

This is my thought of a response. I think you should be honest, tell the truth, and not play posturing games. The truth comes out 99% of the time anyway, especially with the advancement of forensic evidence. The most important thing is that you have regard for human life and try your best to only use what force is necessary to protect yourself and family. Once the threat is gone, then you administer first aid... preferably with your back against the wall so you can still observe for other BGs. Yes, that means keep the weapon on you. Regard for life is how we should feel regardless, not just to put on a show for the court room.

BTW, I'm aware that there will likely be instances of semi "panic fire". There's a good chance that if I pull the trigger once there will be a minimum of two more following. TRY TO TRAIN ON THE NUMBER OF INITIAL SHOTS FIRED... because I feel it's really important to use only that force that is necessary.

hogdogs

May 5, 2009, 10:22 AM

I do not know how to go about getting a copy but I expect a nominal fee. what ticks me off is these tapes are often aired even before charges are filed so it could easily taint a jury pool before selection.
Brent

onthejon55

May 5, 2009, 10:28 AM

Enoy21

May 5, 2009, 10:40 AM

Hogdogs :

It seems it's different from state to state.

http://www.postchronicle.com/commentary/article_212227925.shtml

..... More than a dozen states have banned the broadcasting of 911 calls, and a similar bill is pending here in Ohio. The bill, sponsored by Republican state Sen. Tom Patton and supported by police organizations across the state, would levy a $10,000 fine against any news organization that broadcasts a 911 recording or posts one on a Web site. Patton is quick to point out that written transcripts of recordings may be published.

But nuances and inflections of conversation are sometimes difficult to convey without the real voices of real people. Especially in an emergency. And broadcasting 911 calls is an issue of public safety and public accountability. The content of 911 calls reveals when dispatchers fail to perform their jobs and when they are heroic. The calls can back up legitimate complaints about police response and prove when such claims are false.

Sometimes, publicizing the calls helps the police do their jobs. As the Marietta Times recently noted, before police arrested a man for making bomb threats against public buildings, they made the calls public to see whether anyone recognized the voice.

The senator's chief argument for the bill is that many crimes go unreported because witnesses fear that their 911 calls will be made public.....

GuyMontag

May 5, 2009, 03:35 PM

It's really interesting to see the varied responses. I am wondering how many are what you THINK you should do versus what you have been TAUGHT to do by a professional.

hogdogs

May 5, 2009, 03:52 PM

written transcripts of recordings may be published.
Thus it is still public info... SUX as they say inflection could show a totally different intention on the part of caller or background voices/sounds...
I think the 911 call should be treated as private as medical info until after the trial at least...
Heck I can snitch on you for a crime you didn't commit and remain anonymous while being paid $1,000 so long as I do it on the private tip line number:mad:
Disclaimer: Only if I "think" you did it... not malicious intent...
Brent

Nnobby45

May 5, 2009, 06:06 PM

Call your Attorney FIRST!
__________________

Attorneys who actually represent citizens who acted in SD are (actually have) been re-thinking that approach.
Most other attorneys represent people who are guilty---almost 100% of the time. Guilty people are better off keeping their traps shut, and are so advised by their "mouthpieces".

If you AREN'T guilty, then saying the RIGHT things to the police can help your cause and portray yourself as one who acted in self defense.

Nobody is saying that, when the police show up, you start yacking like a well caffeinated Magpie. There's a method to briefly stating your case so you establish yourself as the one who was in the right.

There are also things you say to the 911 operator that can help establish you as the victim. Same principle applies in your home or on the street when the cops show up.

If you haven't checked out the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network, then you might find their way of approaching the matter interesting, and perhaps even agree.:cool:

Can they legally use the 911 call to prosecute you , given the fact that you had not yet been read your rights ?

Yes, It's EVIDENCE! Can hurt you or help you, same as what you say-- OR DON'T SAY-- when the police arrive.

lefteye

May 5, 2009, 06:54 PM

Three comments:

(1) If there is anything I've learned as a government attorney (not criminal law)for nearly 35 years, it is this: It is much easier to remember the truth than lies, fabrications, distortions, etc. Tell the truth on 911.

(2) It is hard enough to react to a situation properly before shooting an intruder in your home; so hard, in fact, that the need for learning self/home defense has created an industry in the US. After shooting and killing an intruder, few, if any, of us would be able to remember and do the proper 10, 15, or 20 things recommended in this thread.

(3) All humans - including police, prosecutors, judges and juries - make mistakes, but a lawful, self defense shooting of an intruder in your home will, almost always, be recognized by police, prosecutors, judges and juries as a lawful, self defense shooting.

Shadi Khalil

May 5, 2009, 07:53 PM

According to Ayoob...

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1541138791?bclid=1527680698&bctid=16359316001

5 Things To Do After A Shooting:

-Point out the perpetrator to the police
-Tell the police you will "sign the complaint"
-Point out the evidence to the police
-Point out the witnesses to the police
-Will give full cooperation in 24 hours after speaking with an attorney

Lee Lapin

May 5, 2009, 08:28 PM

KE,

Thank Skip Gochenour and the folks at ATSA. I sat through the lecture those notes cover twice, it was that good.

Stay Safe,

lpl/nc

Nnobby45

May 5, 2009, 09:13 PM

5 Things To Do After A Shooting:

-Point out the perpetrator to the police
-Tell the police you will "sign the complaint"
-Point out the evidence to the police
-Point out the witnesses to the police
-Will give full cooperation in 24 hours after speaking with an attorney
__________________

Lots of us have plenty of time and money invested in training and equipment, guns and ammo. How many of us have memorized the simple phrases, above, so we can rightly establish ourselves as the victim?

Marty Hayes

May 5, 2009, 09:30 PM

A couple points here folks. First, because each event will be different, I would not rehearse what to say, as much as understand what you need to accomplish, then devote your spoken work to accomplishing that goal.

Second, understand that if you clam up and don't say anything, (as many well meaning people advise) you are limiting law enforcement's ability to investigate the crime which was perpetrated against you, the crime which gave you the statutory right to use deadly force to begin with!!!

dadofsix

May 9, 2009, 09:07 PM

"It amazes me the number of folks who see an attorney as a saving grace. Attorneys care about being paid--nothing more, nothing less."

It amazes me that people with such a low opinion of attorneys will, nevertheless, expect their attorney to create miracles after they have, in a moment of panic or remorse, inadvertently provided the police and prosecutor with the evidence needed to convict them of a serious crime.

I have been an attorney for nearly 20 years. I practice, among other things, in the arena of criminal law. If I ever had the misfortune of having to shoot someone in my defense or the defense of a loved one, you can be sure that after my short 911 call, my next call would be to another attorney. Counsel is needed to calm nerves and provide insight. Someone has died at your hands and the police are going to want answers.

Only those who have actually taken a human life with their gun can say, with any type of certainty, how they will react. It is foolish to speculate as to how we, who have not done it, will react. It is because the negative ramifications of foolish, or poorly thought out, reactions to unfortunate circumstances can meet with such severe consequences that your attorney's number should be on your speed dialer. I speak specifically of the pressure to give a sworn statement, or other type of statement, as to what happened in response to police questions while you are still in shock -- and probably don't even realize it.

As an attorney I would also point out that, if you have chosen an attorney, take the time to get to know him or her outside the context of "the office." His or her kids may play in sports, or go to school, with yours. You may go to the same church as he or she does. In other words, be more to him or her than just "a client" when that emergency call comes in. Not an easy task, yea, I know, but still, something certainly worth trying. Who knows, he or she might just be intrigued by an offer to go shooting with you sometime.

<><Peace

Enoy21

May 10, 2009, 07:02 AM

I personally think it's rather sad , that we as people who feel the need to defend our homes , must prepare and plan for a defense. It's a sad state of the court systems.

m&p45acp10+1

May 10, 2009, 11:25 AM

In Texas the "castle act" is if you are found justified in use of deadly force you are not liable in a civil court. Basicly you go before a grand jury and they look at the facts of what ocoured and then decide if actions where justified. If justified no further criminal or civil charges will follow.
Check the laws of you state.
Also if you are being sued it means you are still alive. So it is not that bad all things being considered.

Creature

May 10, 2009, 01:43 PM

It amazes me the number of folks who see an attorney as a saving grace. Attorneys care about being paid--nothing more, nothing less.

Many attorneys actually care very deeply about their clients and "doing the right thing". Many work pro bono.

txbirddog

May 10, 2009, 02:45 PM

Call your Attorney FIRST!

I would call 911 first. If at all possible I want to be the one to tell the operator exactly who I am and what I am wearing so the LEO responding doesn't fear me as the perp.

I don't have an attorney yet, but am looking. I was told by my CCW instructor (retired LEO) to use an attorney that was used to representing people in court and within the county of the shooting. Your estate or corp attorney may not be the best in this instance. Criminal defense attorneys would be the best speciality to look at.

Maybe dadofsix could shed more light on this.

dadofsix

May 10, 2009, 04:27 PM

I'd be glad to share what I know, and help folks in finding an attorney qualified to be the one to receive the "emergency call." Just PM me.

A caveat though, I am only licensed to practice in two states. That means that I will respectfully have to decline to give any meaningful "legal advice" to those living in other jurisdictions.

<><Peace

Dallas Jack

May 11, 2009, 02:33 PM

OK, I've read what others would do. This is my idea of what one should do.

Make sure it is safe and there is no other threat. At once call 911 and ask for the police and EMTs. It's very important when this call is made. Try to remain as calm as you can. On the phone stick to the bare facts. Do not say you shot anyone. You fired a shot, do not embellish. Do not volunteer any information. Just the barest of facts.

Do not take any pictures or do anything that appears you are preparing a defense. If it was a good shoot the scene will be your witness. The police have no reason to issue blame, they just collect the evidence. Do not give them anything that the DA's office can twist and use against you.

Appearances mean everything to a jury. Don't give anyone any reason to poke around in your personal life or background.

Smewhat OT:
And of course the most important thing. Do not take the shot unless you are indeed in fear for the safety of your family or yourself. Shooting is always the last defense.
Dallas Jack

Blue Steel

May 13, 2009, 03:56 AM

Man, it sounds like some of your people are Phil Spector trying to figure out how to get away with shooting your girlfriend. If you are legally armed and have a legitimate reason to defend yourself with deadly force then you should not be so paranoid. That does not mean you should not prepare for the aftermath and protect yourself.

Here are my ideas on this subject:

Avoid bravado. Taking a human life is a sobering event, and you most likely won't feel like backslapping, but if you do suppress the urge. Bragging about how you "smoked" someone isn't endearing, and doesn't make you look like the victim.

Tell the truth. If everything is kosher there shouldn't be an issue, and if you made an honest mistake covering it up will only increase your problems.

If you are in your home and you think you hear an intruder, make every effort to call 9-1-1. Listen to the questions and answer them as best you can. Contrary to another post here, often times the 9-1-1 operator does not have your address (and even if they do they have to verify it). If you are forced to engage an intruder you will have the event on tape, including your commands for the person to "Get out of my house" or "Drop the knife" or whatever the situation may be.

Don't hang up on the 9-1-1 operator. They are only going to start trying to call you back. Hanging up stops the flow of information to the police, and keeps them from being able to give you instructions. Hanging up only increases the potential for you to accidentally be treated as a hostile by the police.

I don't understand the concern over semantics of "I shot" or "shots were fired" or "there has been a shooting". It's your house, it's your gun, you're the victim, you shot the assailant. The more vague you are, the more likely you are to accidentally be treated as a hostile by the police. From the time you call 9-1-1 your goal is to place yourself squarely in the VICTIM column. "There has been a shooting." doesn't really tell the police much other than they are going into an armed encounter.

Don't worry about taking photos, that is what the crime scene photographers are for. They are trained, have better equipment, and will do a better job. Your goal is simply to help preserve evidence and witnesses.

Don't call your lawyer first, unless by first you mean talking to one before you have an armed encounter. You don't want to be trying to call your lawyer while the neighbors are calling in the shots fired call. You want to be notifying the police and getting an ambulance started. Remember, its your house, its your gun, you're the victim.

You will need to give the police the basics. "That man tried to harm me, I want to press charges." is a good way to start. Make sure you are placing yourself in the victim column, and let them know you want to cooperate fully as soon as you speak with your attorney.

Expect to be detained and to be transported to a detective squadroom. This process will take hours as they investigate what occurred, but when its done they will have a good idea of what happened and you may not be arrested. In 15 years of public safety I can't think of an armed citizen that defended himself in his home or from a violent attack that was put in jail. If you're prosecuting attorneys aren't friendly to armed citizens maybe you ought to think about moving.

Dismantler

May 13, 2009, 06:29 AM

I tend to agree with Blue Steel on one thing. If you shot the intruder, tell the 911 operator that you shot him. The police are going to come to your home. They will find your fired gun. They can give you a paraffin test to find powder residue on your hand. I mean, it's not like the gun came off of the night stand and shot the guy by itself. :p

After that I would say, "Here's the bad guy. Here's my gun (pointing to it). I will cooperate with the investigation fully as soon as I talk to my attorney. Please do not ask me any questions.

Guys and gals...I know two attorneys that do gun law, one specializes in it. They both advise all of their clients to remain silent. And as mentioned before, do not talk to a person sharing your cell.

The same would go for a shooting outside of the home.

csmsss

May 13, 2009, 08:38 AM

The less you say to the police, the less that can be twisted and distorted against you later - either in criminal or civil court. The decision to actually charge you with a crime (as opposed to take you to jail) is NOT made by responding officers but by a district attorney or assistant district attorney, and talking to the responding officers will have little to no effect on that charging decision.

Call 911, then shut the hell up until you've had the opportunity to speak (in private, of course) with a competent attorney.

IZZY

May 17, 2009, 03:32 PM

(Nnobby45) I don't lay my firearm anywhere until I see flashing lights coming down the street. Certainly not while I'm calling 911. You can assume Bubba was alone, but, as Clint Smith says, Wolves travel in packs.

Some legal authorities have changed their opinions about doing a perfect imitation of a guilty person by immediately lawyering up while Bubba lay on the sidewalk in a pool of blood, making a great immitation of a victim.

A BRIEF account of what happened before you zip it up can work to your benefit.

I highly recommend the tapes put out by the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, LLC.

Especially the one: "Handling the Immediate Aftermath of a Self-Defense Shooting" by Mas Ayoob and Marty Hayes.

When you join, as I did, you get all the tapes anyway. Ayoob, Hayes, Tueller, Farnum and others make this new org. worth taking a look at.

http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/

Other than making sure you really are safe, this advice will not help you, and could ONLY hurt you long term.

Police work for the prosicution. Plain and simple.

You dont lie, but you don't want to be jacked up on ADRENALINE and talking to them either. This is why police LOVE to ask questions right after the event...people ussully yap, yap ,yap.

by all means call 911.:rolleyes:

Lawyers are not a sign of guilt... they are a sign of understanding the system.

sclay

May 17, 2009, 04:46 PM

armsmaster270

May 17, 2009, 05:09 PM

My shooting I said "Shot fired, one down send me an ambulance and supervisor" then waited for the backup to arrive. Had an excellent witness, BG's girlfriend who stated if I haden't shot him he would have stabbed me. but that was an on duty shooting and before I was questioned in detail my Association president and lawyer were with me at the station.

Nnobby45

May 17, 2009, 05:21 PM

Lawyers are not a sign of guilt... they are a sign of understanding the system.

Well, Izzy, wouldn't that include the lawyers who have actually represented citizens in shootings who now advocate a BRIEF description of what happened in order to establish yourself as the victim?

Nobody said you shouldn't call your lawyer or that you should ramble away.

Once again:

5 Things To Do After A Shooting:

-Point out the perpetrator to the police
-Tell the police you will "sign the complaint"
-Point out the evidence to the police
-Point out the witnesses to the police
-WILL GIVE STATEMENT IN 24 HOURS AFTER SPEAKING WITH AN ATTORNEY.

I guess #6 could be: then shut the hell up!:D

pax

May 17, 2009, 07:19 PM

by all means call 911.

And when you call 911, what do you SAY?

***

"911. Please state your emergency."

"Yes, I want an attorney."

"Excuse me?"

"I have a right to an attorney. Please send one."

"Sir, where do you want me to send your attorney?"

"I don't have to answer any questions without a lawyer! Please send me my attorney."

"Sir?"

"I'm not answering any more questions. I want my attorney now."

"Sir, I do not understand the nature of your emergency."

"I want my attorney."

*click*

***

Somehow, I don't think that's going to work real well. I think if you call 911, you have to say something about the nature of your emergency. Since you have to say something about the nature of your emergency, it makes sense to me that you would frame that sentence in terms of, "I was attacked..." -- thus establishing yourself as the victim of a crime.

I think when the police arrive on scene, you could choose to say nothing to them. But you're standing there with a smoking gun over a dead body. That you shot the guy is obvious at a glance. What isn't obvious at a glance is that you were attacked. It isn't immediately obvious to a cop whether there are other suspects getting away, whether there were any witnesses (who may otherwise vanish into the woodwork if not specifically called from anonymity), whether there's evidence of the crime against you anywhere on or near the scene, and that you are willing to cooperate fully as soon as you've talked to your lawyer. Those things all require some sort of verbal communication. Some of them will wait, maybe. But some of them won't.

What you choose to say to the police as they arrive on scene, amped up and ready to arrest a criminal -- whether you take the advice of experts who have been defending innocent parties in self-defense cases for years, or the advice of lawyers who specialize in getting better deals for guilty clients, or the advice of anonymous internet strangers who aren't going to chip in to pay your bail, well, that part's up to you.

But I think you should probably plan to say something besides "I want a lawyer" when you call 911. If you just stick with that, you're going to confuse the poor dispatcher, and won't get any help at all. And I think you should have a plan for what to say to the officers on scene.

As for joining the Armed Citizens Network, I'm all for it. Good people, reliable advice, good value.

pax

pax

May 17, 2009, 07:36 PM

Incidentally ...

http://www.laaw.com/highstress.htm

The link above is to an article written for Law Enforcement supervisors, explaining what they should and should not tell their officers to do in the moments after a shooting. Very interesting stuff!

One of the things that struck my eye was this:

All you, as the supervisor, really need to know (from the involved officer) is:

1. Are there any other casualties, other than what are apparent?

2. Are there any other suspects in need of apprehension?

3. Is there any evidence that is likely to be lost or compromised by delay?

4. Are there any witnesses that we need to nail down right away?

... From the officer, insist upon only that information that is actually needed right away. Then, advise the officer that (s)he has the right to remain silent and the right to an attorney, and that (s)he is well advised to exercise his/her rights.

... Get the officer in contact with HIS/HER attorney as soon as possible.

This reads very, very similar to Massad Ayoob's advice and to the advice given by the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network. Ayoob tells students that if they are ever involved in a defensive shooting, they need to state the following:

1. That person attacked me. (Or those people attacked me). Point out the assailant, or point which way they went if they escaped.
2. “I will sign a complaint.” (I'm the victim.)
3. The evidence is there (point it out)
4. The witnesses are there (point them out)
5. I want a lawyer and will give a statement after I have my lawyer. Then shut up.

Hmmm. Laying one over the other, we get something like,

Casualties -- me, anyone else injured, we're the victims
Suspects -- there he is, there they are, they went that-a-way (flip-flop the first two items on the list)
Evidence -- there it is
Witnesses -- there they are
Shut up & get a lawyer

Kind of interesting that the advice cops give to each other for what to do after a shooting so closely parallels what we're hearing innocent armed citizens should do after a shooting. You'd almost think some people had studied this topic ...! :)

Go read the article. It's really good.

pax

glock06

May 17, 2009, 07:56 PM

I have always hear that if you have a cell phone and can take pictures of the assailant and weapon to do so. Also any car licenses and individuals present.

Yes or No??

newkahr

May 17, 2009, 10:44 PM

I would be scared if I had to shoot a robber and the cops were coming. They get there and see a hyper person esp if you have your gun out, and might be making a split second decision about whether you are the offender or the homeowner. Without info from their dispatch, I reckon they'd treat you as the offender till they found otherwise.

"
Don't hang up on the 9-1-1 operator. They are only going to start trying to call you back. Hanging up stops the flow of information to the police, and keeps them from being able to give you instructions. Hanging up only increases the potential for you to accidentally be treated as a hostile by the police."

newkahr

May 18, 2009, 12:08 AM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/Alabama_Wild_Man/LadysGunControl.jpg

CorpITGuy

May 18, 2009, 08:18 AM

ALWAYS have your lawyer's cell # in your wallet.

When talking to the police:
(1) He came at me.
(2) I told him to stop. He kept coming.
(3) I stopped the attack.
(4) I want to cooperate fully with your investigation, but I want my lawyer present. Thank you.

KingEdward

May 18, 2009, 09:04 AM

thanks all for the replies.

the main points seem to be honesty, simplicity, knowing a little about the different sides and expectations, being co-operative and pointing out the truth.

this would be a very stressful moment in one's life and it will be important to be able to help police and to ask for medical assistance and to have in mind these "basics" so that whatever else is spinning around in the mind will not come out of the mouth.

pax

May 18, 2009, 10:17 AM

KingEdward ~

The main point is don't talk too much. Say what you absolutely need to say, and no more.

The people who suggest you say nothing at all have a good point: many people do find it easier to keep their lips entirely closed than it is to say only what needs to be said. But you won't help your case if the witnesses walk away and the evidence that supports your story disappears before you tell it.

pax

Glock26

May 18, 2009, 10:39 PM

Call 911 and tell the dispatcher someone has broken into your home and they are shot. Tell the dispatcher you have a weapon. When the police arrive before they approach you place the weapon in a visable area away from your person. Put your hands in the air palms towards them, be prepared to be atleast handcuffed don't resist and don't talk smart to them. Be polite and cooperative. Weather or not you are charged will depend on the circumstances. If the subject was running from you and you shot him in the back as he made it for the door. Be ready to go to jail.

Fabonz

May 18, 2009, 10:56 PM

Since you will no doubt be pretty upset, it's not a good time to give a statement to the LEO. Unfortunately, LEO are trained to try to get you to make a statement right away.

Best advice I've heard: Tell the first officer on scene that you are having chest pains and numbness in your arm and you would like to get checked out by the hospital. That should buy you several hours to clear your head and have your attorney next to you when you tell what happened.

Theojt

May 19, 2009, 09:49 AM

Lots of great information in this thread. My UT CCW class was taught by an LEO. I also attended a 8 hour class on the legal aspects of CCW - this was taught by an attorney and was attended primarily by other attorneys, NRA trainers and LEOs of various flavors. I was the only citizen attendee.

A couple of key points I noted:

(1) If you have the opportunity, make defensive statements in a loud voice before the incident - "Stop, don't rob me", "I have a gun, I will defend myself", "Stay away", etc. This gives a warning to a potential attacker, and may provide supporting evidence if witnesses are within earshot. It demonstrates that you attempted a lower level of response before going to deadly force. Keep in mind however, people may hear but not see you. Still good to do, IMO.

(2) Call 911 ASAP, if you are with your significant other you should already have a plan where your SO immediately moves away, placing you between them and the attacker and dials 911. They should identify you and describe what you are wearing.

(3) If you did indeed have to defend yourself, tell the 911 operator only that "someone has been shot, please send help and an ambulance".

(4) If the threat is no longer present, place your firearm out of reach, open your wallet to your ID and hold it and your hands in the air. This is what an off duty officer would do - as responders arrive, you will look less threatening.

(5) Describe the situation with the least amount of detail possible. Again, "someone has been shot" is better than "I shot that guy". Respectfully offer that you will fully cooperate once you have had a chance to speak with your family and an attorney.

(6) If pressured (and maybe this is a good idea anyway), request medical attention. This will remove you from direct interface with the responding LEO's and give you a few minutes to get your bearings.

Also, if you have pepper spray - use it first. And if you carry pepper spray, expose yourself to it at least once so you know what to expect. You wouldn't want the spray coming back in your own face unexpectedly, rendering you more incapacitated than your attacker. There is a chemical, Sudacon I think, that will offset the affects of the pepper spray after you conduct this experiment. (I haven't done this yet).

Another recommendation is that you keep a folder with a record of any classes, training, practice, etc. related to Self Defense and firearm training. Even range time could be/should be logged. This would demonstrate to a court that you maintained a level of knowledge and proficiency in self defense.

Daugherty16

May 20, 2009, 04:28 PM

The scenario, as i recall, was shooting a BG in your home. The cops and the DA are going to view this very differently from a shooting in a parking lot. Even without a true castle doctrine on the books, most states recognize that a BG who breaks and enters while you are home inherently presents all 3 necessary conditions - opportunity, intent, and ability.

Shooting a guy out front of Walmart involves a lot more variables - collateral damage, witnesses, instigator vs victim - things that leave much more open to interpretation by the DA. But Pax summed things up pretty clearly.

In either case, you have to call 911 as soon as it is safe to do so.
You have to tell the dispatcher enough to get LEO and EMT on site.
You have to tell the reponders - look at PAX's list - enough to seal off the crime scene, gather evidence, and identify witnesses.
Then you respectfully add that part about making a full statement after discussion with your attorney.

I would add that you should never, ever give first aid or medical assistance to the BG. Even if you are a medical professional. You compromise your personal safety, your situational awareness (what if the BG partner isn't really gone), and open yourself to additional liability ("he would have lived if that nasty rich homeowner hadn't touched him"). The Good Samaritan laws in my state only apply to doctors and nurses rendering emergency first aid.

On similar posts i have seen it recommended that your should wet your pants. Gross and disgusting, yes. Uncourtly and unpleasant, yes. But will it help in establishing or supporting your fear of imminent harm or death - that which caused you to shoot in the first place? I don't know. I am sure the LEOs will notice your wet pants though and ask about them.

armsmaster270

May 21, 2009, 02:51 AM

I have been there you don't put your weapon down it may develop feet. put it in your holster have your ID not your wallet in your hand keep your hands in sight away from your weapon and wait for directions from the police.

scottaschultz

May 21, 2009, 05:09 AM

On similar posts i have seen it recommended that your should wet your pants.This event will have probably taken place long before the police ever get there!

jfrey123

May 21, 2009, 12:16 PM

Wow, this question again...... :rolleyes:

Take my advice, say the following:

You:"Hi 911? There's a man who bust in my house. I shot him."
911:"You shot him?"
You:"Hell yeah, pumped him full of lead. He is dead, deader than a door nail. I'm glad this mother f'er is dead. Doesn't look like he had a gun, but I didn't care. I shot him til he fell down, but then he tried to get up so I stood over him and shot him again. Can you guys recommend a cleaning service for this sort of thing? There's a lot of blood and I want this cleaned up quick."

Dragon55

May 21, 2009, 12:20 PM

here you go

www.AdvancedBio-Treatment.com

Mannlicher

May 22, 2009, 12:46 PM

I did not read the entire thread, but my advice would be, since the threat is no longer among the living, to call your lawyer first.
Each and every one of us here should have already spoken to an attorney, and make sure that he or one of his trusted associates is available in a time of need.
Say NOTHING to the police until your attorney shows up, and then let him do the talking for you.
Everything you say to the police can, and may well be, used in a negative manner against your best interests.

scottaschultz

May 22, 2009, 01:16 PM

Mannlicher wrote:...my advice would be, since the threat is no longer among the living, to call your lawyer first.With all due respect, I think this is really bad advice. Unless you are a trained medical professional who examined the body, you are not qualified to determine whether the person you shot is alive or dead, even if they are laying in gallons of blood and their brains are splattered all over your walls.

Secondly, I can not see a situation like this not going to court. When the prosecution puts together the timeline of events, the fact that you did not call 911 first can not look good. Your first responsibility must be to summon law enforcement and medical aid to the scene. Not doing so can be seen as negligent on your part. As has already been mentioned, you will be able to make a phone call even if you are taken "downtown" for questioning and that is when you should call your attorney or a family member who will call on your behalf.

Scott