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View Full Version : I made a pretty dumb deal on a Garand, but I wanted one bad. Have a few questions


Doug S
May 1, 2009, 01:20 PM
I might have just made the stupidest gun deal that I’ve made to date. I’ve been wanting a M1 Garand for some time for my WWII collection. I recently posted concerning a Winchester receiver (Underwood barrel) M1 Carbine that I acquired at a pretty good deal. I bought it with the idea of using it for trade fodder. After getting it, I liked it so much that I considered keeping it, but I couldn’t get an M1 Garand off my mind (I guess I’ve been watching too many WWII movies). Anyway I went to Cabelas today to see what they had on the shelves. They had 3 Springfield Garands, and I selected the one with the lowest serial number (2,932,xxx). According to what I’ve read on the net, this would make it approximately early June of 1944 production. Anyway, I tried to get them to trade me even up for my M1 Carbine, which of course the wouldn’t do. So, I decided to try a “two-fer” deal with my M1 Carbine, and SKS paratrooper. Of course they were more interested in this, and were willing to make a trade with no money exchanged. I should have held out, and sold these guns, and then got a Garand, but I went for the deal. Anyway, I know next to nothing about Garands, but I have a book ordered which should be here in a day or two.

What I can say from a quick look over the gun barrel marked S-A-1-52, and I the bolt is marked D28287-19SA 0-15. Are these Springfield manufacture? The stock is fairly rough, but a nice dark military looking color which I like. I can find no markings on it so far except for a serial number 9231 on the buttstock. Is there an easy way to tell if this is an American military stock, or something other. It appears to be walnut based on the dark color. Otherwise, I no nothing about the Garand, so I can’t comment on the other parts yet. I don’t see an import mark, but I figure I’ll find it when I disassemble the rifle after getting my book.

I would appreciate any feedback on the markings. Also feel free to laugh at me for the two-fer deal. I really wanted a Garand. I know the CMP would have been a better route, but I’m impatient, and impulsive. I guess I should mention, I had $750 in the two guns that I traded, and the Garand was marked $899 (of which they came down $100 on the price).

bufordtjustice
May 1, 2009, 01:45 PM
I personally don't think you got completely ripped off. Yes, the CMP Garands are a much better deal for the money but you yourself said you had less in the two you traded.

Learn all you can about your Garand. Their is a ton of stuff online also Scott Duff's book is first rate. You can leave it as is or redo the stock, replace any worn parts, etc. Of course shoot it first to see how it performs but you may have a good project gun if nothing else. You could do everything from rebarreling it with a krieger to converting to .308, etc. The list is endless.

Post some pics too!

Nick-Mc
May 1, 2009, 01:48 PM
should have sold the M1a and the sks, would off gotten a hell of a lot more than $799 in todays hype.

Bart Noir
May 1, 2009, 01:52 PM
Those are great guns and with any luck yours will have had the arsenal rebuild(s) to be in good shape.

Probably your June 1944 rifle has the 2nd generation rear sight. There were problems with the first sights but the improved version should have been on a rifle made then. I think. I'm no expert.

Now you had better attend guns shows and browse the web, for surplus 30-06 ammo. And consider every round to be corrosive ammo, no matter when and where it was made.

And do be careful with your thumb!

Bart Noir

Doug S
May 1, 2009, 02:05 PM
I appreciate the comments.

I thought maybe I'd try to sell first, but the Garand was there...I was there..., and I just couldn't wait. I did have less in the two I traded that the price of this Garand.

I'm looking forward to getting my book, and researching the parts. I need to find some ammo, I had no luck today. I have a fried who had a Garand. One day in church I noticed his black and blue, bandaged up thumb. He told me it was "M1 Thumb", and he had to learn the hard way. Judging by the condition of his thumb, I sure do want to avoid the condition. Seriously, it was pretty beat up.

savage36
May 1, 2009, 03:00 PM
A fool proof way to avoid the M1 thumb is to use one hand to load the clip (with your thumb) and hold back the bolt (with the side of your hand) at the same time. Lock back the op rod and, while holding the front portion of the stock with your left hand, hold the clip in the right hand. Put the clip in place and use the side your right hand to hold back the op rod handle while pushing down the clip in with your thumb. When the clip reaches bottom and releases the op rod, the side of your hand will hold back the handle. You won't be able to release the op rod handle until your thumb is clear anyway so the bolt will never slam down on your thumb. Being left handed I had always loaded with the left and held the stock with my right so I learned this the hard way.

Chipperman
May 1, 2009, 03:02 PM
You could have done better, but you did not get totally ripped off.

You traded for somthing you really wanted. If it makes you happy, that's the most important consideration.

barrel marked S-A-1-52, and I the bolt is marked D28287-19SA 0-15. Are these Springfield manufacture?
Yes



WE NEED PICS!!

Doug S
May 1, 2009, 04:39 PM
Thanks all for the additional comments/info. Here are some pictures.

http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/dmattaponi/SpringfieldArmoryM1Garand.jpg

http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/dmattaponi/ReceiverMarkingsCloseup.jpg

http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/dmattaponi/BarrelMarking.jpg

http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/dmattaponi/Boltmarkings.jpg

http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/dmattaponi/Receiver.jpg

Chris_B
May 1, 2009, 06:31 PM
Avoiding M1 thumb is easy-

rack the operating rod back like you mean it, and then look to make sure the bolt is not resting on the follower

Your M1 appears to have a USGI Springfield manufactured buttstock. The numbers stamped on it...where are they located? These are almost certainly rack numbers and not serial numbers

The wood matches pretty well. If my memory serves, the grooved clip on the rear handguard is something worth having on your rifle. The numbers you see on the metal parts are almost all drawing numbers, not serial numbers incidentally. As noted, the barrel and bolt are Springfield (SA). Your rifle is only a few months older than my Springfield M1

The guard on your trigger group is the stamped version, which is technically speaking superior to the milled ones, although from an aesthetic standpoint I prefer the milled. Some folks will tell you that the stamped guard version was only on rifles that went to the PTO, which is not true, I have seen photos of M1 rifles recovered from Normandy that were recovered in the 21st century that have the stamped guards (web slings, too)

Looks like your rifle has been through at least one rebuild, but then again most have. Your wood is a nice example of the sought-after "Springfield Red" or "Arsenal Red" color, which is the product of years of oxidation of impurities trapped in the oil the wood was originally dipped in. Looks like the wood could stand some cleaning to me; if it were mine I would rub it down with boiled linseed oil which should clean it up some but this is not my rifle and that's your choice

When you shoot your M1, please use only M2 ball ammunition unless you modify your gas system. The rifle was made to use M2 ball .30-06 ammunition; commercial ammo made today is not M2 ball. The powder is not the same and all 30-06 is not the same, use of modern commercial loads will damage and fatigue your operating rod, and can fatigue your receiver as well. Today's powder is too 'hot' for the rifle. When looking for M2 ball, you may run across some "HXP" ammunition. This is Greek M2 ball and it shoots well, I currently have three cans of it and I've shot roughly 400 rounds of it. I have had one clip that didn't like to feed ammo, and that was the extent of my troubles. If you want to use commercial ammo, you need an adjustable gas plug. Even on your rifle right now, the gas plug is a valve. The adjustable plug allows you to set that valve for the loads you're firing

Your M1 looks pretty good, a nice honest M1 rifle. You did not pay "a lot" for that rifle in my opinion. You paid the going rate (unless you go through the CMP that is, and they have a long wait right now)

That rifle could be 'correct' with either a USGI web sling or the model of 1907 leather sling. I prefer the leather sling as I find the web slings can slip. Damn near dropped my M1 because of that, and if it had hit the floor, the floor might have broken ;)

Congratulations on your 'new' M1. You will love it :)

Dave P
May 1, 2009, 06:58 PM
If my memory serves, the grooved clip on the rear handguard is something worth having on your rifle.

Yes, those can be valuable.

Nice rifle! Do not do anything drastic to the stock. I would wipe it down with 0000 steel wool and a bit of thinner to clean off the gunk. Might be nice cartouches under there!

Doug S
May 1, 2009, 07:41 PM
Chris,

Thanks for a lot of good info.

Your M1 appears to have a USGI Springfield manufactured buttstock. The numbers stamped on it...where are they located?

These are almost certainly rack numbers and not serial numbers

The number is consists of 4 digits stamped horizontally across the right side of the buttstock (approximately in line with the bottome sling swivel).

I will try yours and Dave P's recommendations on the stock.

Glad to here I found a decent M1 Garand because I really hadn't done my research beforehand. I like the idea that it's mostly springfield, including the stock. Does this mean the the rifle probably didn't go to a foreign government after the war?

Also, what does "PTO" stand for.

Thanks again for any info.

Tom2
May 1, 2009, 08:01 PM
You need an eggspurt to examine it if you want to know if it were ever a reimported rifle. Actually, most of them out there now, are. If it was reimported by the CMP it should not have import marks. If it were imported from say, Korea, by a commercial importer, it should have import marks that are quite clearly as such. Importers name and basic address, usually. Later on they started making the marks really pretty small and not so much so that they stood out, like maybe the bottom of barrels instead of the sides, etc. Whatever. A big deal with the Garand is that you do not get one with a rewelded receiver, which usually entails a refinish. Yours appears to have an old mil. finish on it. And the barrel and bore condition. Your barrel is Korean war era, so it is alot newer than the receiver, but not a big deal for shooters. Factors are muzzle erosion and throat erosion numbers, and general bore condition. Lot of Garands surfaced since the commercial imports dried up, that are honor guard rifles from VFW posts or Legion posts that closed. Check to be sure the barrel does not have a spot weld to the receiver(hidden till you field strip it). But often a blank adapter was welded to the ends of the barrels and yours does not have that. Someone who knows the rifle well ought to put a hands on inspection, they can tell you alot more than we can from pictures. Your rifle has metal work that is a bit "aged and patinated" with "character" Mine was the same. I went ahead and had it refinished with some substantial repair work that was needed, it looks nice, but lost it's "character" quite a bit. I would keep it cleaned, rub off any loose rust spots, not down to shiny metal, perhaps, and keep it oiled and protected, it looks like a vet! A stock cleanup to some extent is not out of the question either, to maybe improve apperance a little, but a total refinish will erase it's character too.

Chris_B
May 1, 2009, 08:16 PM
The number is consists of 4 digits stamped horizontally across the right side of the buttstock (approximately in line with the bottome sling swivel).

I will try yours and Dave P's recommendations on the stock.

Glad to here I found a decent M1 Garand because I really hadn't done my research beforehand. I like the idea that it's mostly springfield, including the stock. Does this mean the the rifle probably didn't go to a foreign government after the war?

Also, what does "PTO" stand for.

Thanks again for any info.

That series of stamped numbers is not an uncommon sight. It was an ID for a place in rack or something similar and is probably un-traceable.

Having all one maker's parts or another really doesn't mean much...the rifle could have gone to many places since 1944. Hard to say what happened along the line. I wouldn't take all the same manufacturer as evidence that it was not sent to a foreign government. It may be true that it did not go to a foreign government, but I don't think you can go on just having mainly one manufacturer's parts as evidence that was what happened...but who knows. It's rare to find an M1's history but it has happened

PTO is "Pacific Theater of Operations", as opposed to ETO (European Theater of Operations) or MTO (Mediterranean Theater of Operations) or the CBI (China-Burma-India theater), all as referenced during WWII. I've heard Korea called the KTO but it's a curiously odd way to put it...where else was the Korean war fought, after all ;)

Doug S
May 1, 2009, 08:21 PM
Tom and Chris,

Again, thanks for the great info. I'm really getting a history lesson.

Tim R
May 1, 2009, 08:26 PM
What I can say from a quick look over the gun barrel marked S-A-1-52, and I the bolt is marked D28287-19SA 0-15. Are these Springfield manufacture?

Yes those are Springfield parts. Not to be confused with Springfield Inc. which is different than the old govermemnt owned Springfield. Your Barrel was made in Jan 52. From this I would think your rifle was re-built in 52. You no longer have the WWII period correct sights which really is not a bad thing.

I have a CMP rack grade which is about 3 parts away from being WWII correct. The lock bar rear sights are not so easy to use when shooting a John C. Garand match. The front sight would be rather narrow if WWII correct and sometimes I would find myself lining up on a target with a wing instead of the center post. I shoot in the Master class for NRA High Power, just so you know I know how to shoot the sights and not some newbe.

Doug S
May 1, 2009, 09:37 PM
You no longer have the WWII period correct sights which really is not a bad thing.

I'm anxious to get my book so that I can start going over this part by part. Thanks for the info on the sights. I was able to find some pictures on the web.

I haven't had it out of the wood yet, but I did spend some time looking over the exposed metal for an import mark. I wasn't able to find one.

ronl
May 1, 2009, 10:45 PM
Decent Garand there. The D28287 is the drawing number. The 19 is the revision number of the bolt. I am pretty sure the 0-15 is a heat lot number. You can pull the trigger assembly and check out the revision numbers on your particular rifle. Interesting stuff. Glad to hear there's another WW2 collector on this forum. I especially like the steel pot in the background.

Doug S
May 1, 2009, 11:17 PM
I especially like the steel pot in the background.

I kinda lucked out on that one. Local Army/Navy store was selling a few Vietnam Era helmets. I went in and looked at them, and mixed in with them was one front seam World War II helmet. The buy behind the counter didn't know the difference between the WWII, and the later rear seem helmets. I paid $20 w/liner.

Wleoff
May 2, 2009, 08:20 AM
Doug, This site lists all the correct numbers that would be on the parts in your SA M1 for the initial build:
http://battlerifle0.tripod.com/id3.html
Since you have a 1952 barrel, your M1 has been through at least one rebuild. Most have.

Chris_B
May 2, 2009, 08:30 AM
Wleof, I've book marked that page myself. Thanks for the link!

Doug S
May 2, 2009, 09:34 AM
Wleoff,

Yes, thanks for the link!

Doug S
May 7, 2009, 10:22 PM
I got around to partially disassembling my Garand today. So far the rifle seems to be all Springfield. According to the drawing numbers the SA marked op-rod dates from early 1942. I guess both Springfield and Winchester made a grooved metal clip on the top hand guard, so I'm not sure about that one. According to the book they stopped using those in early 1942. The trigger assembly is either very late war, or post war Springfield. I didn't measure the cloverleaf to be sure which, but it is also stamped SA. The number/arrangement of diamonds/square, on the buttplate indicate Springfield. The stock is a Springfield USGI replacement stock. The receiver drawing number matched the serial number. Some day I'd like to have an original WWII Garand, but this one at least has some WWII parts (receiver, bolt, op-rod, top handguard/grooved clip, and possibly the USGI replacement stock). Didn't check the gas tube, so I'm not sure about that one. Also didn't check the smaller parts. Pretty fun doing the "investigative" work.

Flatbush Harry
May 7, 2009, 10:35 PM
As a serious statement, CMP M1s can be trusted to be:

1. what CMP says they are
2. properly headspaced
3. test-fired at CMP (unless a collector grade or special so noted as not test fired)

Provenances of non-CMP rifles are open to question. Sorry about that.

BTW, I have 2 correct grade SAs and an HRA special grade that is "new metal" in a "new CMP Walnut stock with new stock metal". All three have TE =0-1 and MW=<1. I use one as a shooter...am still evaluating what to do with the other two.

FH

Ruger4570
May 7, 2009, 11:46 PM
I bet you don't wanna hear about the M-1 Carbine I got for $69 and the Garand for $129. It was a deal for law enforcement folks and all guns were returns from the "lend Lease" program. You had to be a LEO and get a letter from your Chief or ranking officer it was for duty purposes. I still have the carbine but the M-1 was morphed into a Ruger #1 in 7 mm Mag, a Burris 3 X 9 scope loading dies and a few other goodies. Back when I traded it, in the early 70's the gun dealer drooled seeing one available and his chances of buying it. He did good, so did I.

Doug S
May 8, 2009, 11:42 AM
I bet you don't wanna hear about the M-1 Carbine I got for $69 and the Garand for $129.

And I thought $500 was a good deal on my carbine. Those were the days. I remember a friend getting a carbine back in the early 90s for something in the $100 range. If only I knew that what I know now.

armsmaster270
May 8, 2009, 12:42 PM
NRA sold 1911"s and carbines thru DCM 17.00 for a 1911A1 and 35.00 for the Carbine can't remember what the garands went for.