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Enoy21
April 28, 2009, 03:42 PM
So as I read through many of the tactics and questions from so many people about " What would you do if ... ? " " How would you handle ... ? "

While I think it's fantastic to imagine the various scenarios and try and drill into ourselves a reaction and how we would want to handle it... kind of like mentally training for it .... I was just wondering...

How many of us have actually been in situations where drawing your weapon was necessary or saved yours or someone elses life ?

Upon that : If shots were fired .....



What was the scenario and what happened ?

How did you handle it/them then ? ( please no shame if it wasn't as bravado as you had hoped or planned , be honest )

What was your comfort level with guns and defense prior to the event ?

How do you wish you had handled it ?

What have you done since then to try and make sure you handle it differently (if so desired) the next time ?




I'm interested to hear real, true experiences of what has actually happened, something to remind the rest of us how different training is to real life ... or just how well training can truly help.

Thanks in advance.

Brian Pfleuger
April 28, 2009, 03:47 PM
This sort of thread has been brought up before, generally it has encountered a hostility that I find odd. Anyhow, we'll see how it goes this time....

Enoy21
April 28, 2009, 03:52 PM
I really hope there is no hostility and will allow others to draw on the reality of personal experience and help many of us to better train and understand what happens to us as humans in these situations...

I think it can be very educational provided honest posters and understanding readers.


BTW , I'm glad that anyone who has been through these situations are still here to type about them. Thank you !

hogdogs
April 28, 2009, 04:08 PM
The ones that matter to me do not get discussed for any number of valid reasons... Too personal to discuss being tops...
Brent

comn-cents
April 28, 2009, 04:24 PM
I was in a situation. I was lucky it didn't turn into a shooting.

Going on three years ago on New Years Eve I was headed out to have a drink around 11 pm when I decided not to. Thinking about all the drunks out driving and not wanting to deal with them. The reason I bring this up is that I was very glad that I was sober.
At around 3am the dogs went crazy. I had three at the time with a combined weight of 270 lbs. I grabbed my phone, light & gun and dialed 911 while heading for the back door, following the dogs. Two of the dogs went out back through the dog door as I was looking out the window. One of them yelped and it ****** me off that whoever had tried to enter my house had hit my dog. I didn’t see anyone out the window so I checked the dog door and saw no one there. I must admit that some of this is fuzzy, some of the times blend into each other and I'm not clear on the order. That is something I didn't expect. So after looking out the dog door and not seeing anyone I opened the door only to be 2 feet away from a 19-20 year old standing on my porch hand rail and holding onto my rain gutter, trying to avoid the dogs. I'm standing there in my underwear talking to 911 and now crouching down to create more distance between the BD and myself pointing a gun at him. He tells me he was at a party and someone pulled a gun and he was running from the party and decided to come into my house. I tolled the 911 operator this and she says "that doesn’t give him the right to come into your house" I agreed whole heartedly. He asks if he can come in and says he will give me his id and reaches for his wallet. I tell him to keep his fn hands up and he tells me to keep it down so that the other BG with the gun won't find him. The 911 operator tells me that there has been other calls confirming his story and that there are 5 or 6 cars in the area. So I'm know in a shooting stance that I have never shot from, squatting down with a cell phone to my ear and pointing my gun at some kid with both eyes open (something I didn't practice before) instead of a two had hold looking down my sights.
The operator tells me they have the car stopped that had the armed BG in it. I called the dogs in, told the kid he's on his own and he's lucky. Closed the door locked the dog door and turned out the light.
I watched as he jumped the fence and I told the operator which way he went and what he was wearing. I was very thankful to have large dogs and that I had gone through some handgun training. If I hadn't had the training I was so pumped I was shaking and if I would of had my finger on the trigger I would of shot this kid. the next day i called the place that I had gone through training with and thanked them. Glad I didn't intentionally or by accidentally shoot this kid.

grymster2007
April 28, 2009, 04:27 PM
I'm gonna have to take the fifth on this one.

David Armstrong
April 28, 2009, 04:32 PM
This sort of thread has been brought up before, generally it has encountered a hostility that I find odd.
It's not so much a hostility as a general dislike. Doing it once is bad enough. Reliving it over and over on an internet forum with a bunch of people you don't know is something else entirely.

KingEdward
April 28, 2009, 04:37 PM
these forums from months and years past prepared me. A home invasion happened in an apartment below mine. Midnight. two armed men with ski masks. Door was kicked in and couple was held at gunpoint in their bed. place was ransacked/robbed. I secured HD and light, was a witness to the BGs running to the parking lot and driving away and I called the Police. I knew from reading and preparing, Do not leave my apartment, wait for the police and also, don't go downstairs to "check it out" after the BGs left.

In all honesty, the curiosity was literally eating me alive but I stayed put. The cops questioned me and I was fairly helpful in recalling what I saw. As they always say, it all happened so fast.

As to any differences for me, yes, now I carry in the apartment (vs. leaving on the nightstand in the bedroom) and I reinforced the door. Also, I have a catalog of forum articles by subject and I re-read and highlighted everything I could find on home invasion, defense plans, etc.

It is all helpful. I realize now that armed robbery and home invasion is not just on the news or in the paper.

Enoy21
April 28, 2009, 06:57 PM
comn-cents , Thank you or that ... I'm glad the actual innocent was not shot , even though he seemed like the perp. I'm also glad you remained on the phone to know so and get what information you needed.

Mr. Armstrong , while I agree and understand the sentiment .... To me this is like a situation of a speaker who was formerly into drugs , or a policemen formerly shot and going to schools of information to share their story ... While incredibly hard to live through over and over , I'm hoping that by sharing the traumatizing experience with others just might help another , will make the sharing not only worth it , but therapeutic...


While I don't have any Gun related stories , I've had many "relationship" type events that have traumatized me over the years ( Single dad of two kids , raising them both as well as a very introspective philosophic thought process ) ... while sharing them on an internet blog , I was able to not only release that concern and bring my demons to the surface.... I have often heard feedback from others who also had been dealing with the same demons and were able to relate.

Those that hadn't been able to relate were able to step abck and really truly put themselves in those shoes long enough to have a better understanding of the reality and no longer relied on " hollywod " scenerios....


Sometime sthe anonymity of the internet helps to relase the past and the struggles without ear of judgment ...



Either way , I appreciate and look forward to any real stories experienced.

OldMarksman
April 28, 2009, 07:27 PM
I have been involved in three incidents in which my having a gun deterred criminal action.

The question, however, was about people who have been involved in "shoot-outs."

Not sure what that means. Two sides shooting at each other? If so, the number of such incidents, if military combat is excluded, will not be large. And if one excludes law enforcement actions, it will be much smaller.

I've never met a combat veteran who wanted to discuss his combat experiences. Never. And that includes people I have known who have fought in WWI, WWII in multiple theaters, Korea, Viet Nam, and Iraq.

I do not know whether law endorsement agencies would endorse the idea of one of their current or former members discussing their experiences in a combat shooting on a public forum. Frankly, I doubt it.

What about private citizens? First, the number of experiences is low. Second, as David armstrong points out, few people are going to like rehashing the story publicly.

And consider something else: if someone died in a shooting, anything brought out in the retelling could prove damaging from a criminal standpoint unless there has been an actual acquittal in a trial court, and there's also the possibility of civil liability. Now, would it really be wise for anyone to post anything on this?

No, I wouldn't expect anything worthwhile to come from this.

comn-cents
April 28, 2009, 07:35 PM
twellons

I posted this with the hope that it may help someone if they have someone enter their house. It has helped me.

I now practice with a hand up to my ear (as if on the phone), both eyes open and not just in a good strong stance. I try not to go to the range in my skivvies just so I don't scare the natives.

Enoy21
April 28, 2009, 07:40 PM
Old Marksman ... I definitely meant a broader spectrem of perhaps a better title of " When has your firearm served you in life or death situations" ... Poor question forming on my part.

I guess I can see some validity to the point of not wanting to discuss it for various reasons ... Perhaps it was a poor subject to ask for information on...
yet. In the interest of learning and understanding....


Someone in a previous thread mentioned ... Tomaca Mall? and "something" courthouse shootings as examples of real life events and how it goes down in situations ... All I had to go by in those was a Wiki report and news , which often skew the actions and events...


I would be interested to hear how :


I have been involved in three incidents in which my having a gun deterred criminal action.

went down ....


For me me personally, my hope and view is that in the best case scenerio for me is that with someone else who intended to do harm to me or another just "knowing" that I had a firearm and that there is someone there ready to defend themselves would help to avoid any shootings of any kind.

The Threat of the situation, while also being prepared for the totality of the event, would deter a would be attacker.


If you have some specifics of how that helped you I would be grateful to hear them.


If not , I understand.

Lee Lapin
April 28, 2009, 08:05 PM
These might help...

http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/quips.html

http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/Default.aspx

besafe2
April 28, 2009, 08:13 PM
One time while I was in le & lets just say we went home.

David Armstrong
April 29, 2009, 12:38 PM
Mr. Armstrong , while I agree and understand the sentiment .... To me this is like a situation of a speaker who was formerly into drugs , or a policemen formerly shot and going to schools of information to share their story ... While incredibly hard to live through over and over , I'm hoping that by sharing the traumatizing experience with others just might help another , will make the sharing not only worth it , but therapeutic...
It has nothing to do with trauma, therapy, or any of that stuff, at least for me. OldMarksman pretty well coverd it. I don't mind discussing LE shootings with LE or one on one with folks, I don't mind discussing military experiences with military or one on one with folks, there is something somewhat distasteful to me about tossing them out for general consumption and discussion on an unregulated public forum. Sorry.

comn-cents
April 29, 2009, 01:01 PM
David A

If you don't like the thread why waste our time and yours posting things on it.
I understand that you have your opinion on it but others of us think differently.

I think that it is in bad taste that you post things here.

Go post on another thread that you might be interested in.

NRAhab
April 29, 2009, 01:03 PM
I'd conjecture that the reason threads like this often encounter hostility is because the guys that have actually BT;DT don't particularly feel like sharing their experiences, and find it kind of rude when people ask them about them unsolicited. This applies equally to real life as online.

markj
April 29, 2009, 01:03 PM
Just this last dec I was standing by a tree with my shotgun when the BG came out of the forest at a full run. I shot him a little high breaking his back, he tryed to crawl into a cut corn field when I stepped up to him and shot him thru the back of his head. Then I dressed him and ate him. Got 2 deer that day, was first day of the season.

Years ago when I was a bouncer in a rough part of town, 2 guys were causing a problem so I asked em to leave. I was walking them out the door, I got them outside and asked them to not come back when one turned and levelled a gun at me he shot 6 times missing me each time we dug slugs out of the wall very close to where I was standing. So to everyone thinks he will get the BG with the first shot, I say doubt it unless you have nerves of steel and tons of training.

I have other situations but wont post them in any public forum, hate to think about some of them.

Creature
April 29, 2009, 01:05 PM
On the other side of the coin, I find the experiences that DO get shared to be enlightening and educational...

NRAhab
April 29, 2009, 01:07 PM
It's more the nature of the beast itself - if a combat vet wants to share his wisdom with you, that's one thing. However, these threads are sort of the 'net equivalent of rolling up to a gunfighter and saying "TELL ME ABOUT THE TIME YOU KILLED SOMEONE". It seems impolite, whether or not that's the intention of the person who posted the thread.

Brian Pfleuger
April 29, 2009, 01:22 PM
The problem with the "don't like to talk about it" argument is that the answer to that is way too simple: Don't.

These threads are not a demand for information. It's a request. "Hey, anybody, if this has happened to you, please share."

It's not even a question directly to any individual, where you might feel awkward to refuse to talk about it.

If you don't want to share, don't. Not commenting at all means no one ever even knows anything happened.

The hostility is unexplainable.

I don't understand why it would be "distasteful". There are TV shows about combat, video documentaries, tv shows outlining SD strategy and reliving events to show what was done right and wrong. Why is this any different?

So far as the legal aspect, I would guess that it would be self-evident that if you are or could be in any form of legal jeopardy then you should keep your mouth shut.

Enoy21
April 29, 2009, 01:25 PM
NRAhab , I can see that point of view and completely respect it, although that was in no way how it was intended to ask.

Not like a drooling teenager excited to hear how someone killed the big bad wolf... because it's keeeewl. ( which I fear is how you took it )


This is just an inquiry to hear real life stories of how shaken one can get in a life or death situation , how hard it is to stay on target and not to panic/misdraw/AD/ remember how to dial 911 etc.

I am not asking for details of a death , and am not glorifying death or a shooting... more so to hear how the person reacted in the Real life situation , good or bad , and how their training helped them or what they want to improve upon ....

Kind of a "What was your weak spot when it came to reality?" So that the rest of us can learn about scenerios we may not have expected , or learn more areas we need to train ourselves in.


Either way , no one is forced to answer , I was just looking for further education straight from the first hand account.

Enoy21
April 29, 2009, 01:28 PM
Markj .... I'm assuming that like here you as a bouncer were unarmed correct ?

If so , I think I might have shat myself when it was leveled on me and I being defensless ( unless very close range ) . 6 shots is alot to miss, do you remember approximate yardage/distance at all ?

NRAhab
April 29, 2009, 01:29 PM
Back easy there, everyone - I'm just a humble servant trying to explain why folk would have a hostile reaction to these threads.

Me personally, I don't like 'em because of the number of folk that show up to talk about using a firearm like it's that time at the high school football game where they caught the winning touchdown pass. For various reasons, I find that distasteful. Legit discussions of sound tactics is one thing, being regaled with tales of "I told him to keep his fn hands up" is something else entirely.

markj
April 29, 2009, 01:39 PM
Markj .... I'm assuming that like here you as a bouncer were unarmed correct ?

Completly unarmed and as surprised as can be. I never would of thought that would happen.

They were 2 or 3 steps away from me. Didnt mess me undies as I was in a state of shock, couldnt even move it happened so fast. Another time I was shot in the upper left back, never saw who did it, just felt it burn in.

We had several shootings at that bar and one other I worked at. Was a long time ago.

David Armstrong
April 29, 2009, 02:50 PM
If you don't like the thread why waste our time and yours posting things on it.
I understand that you have your opinion on it but others of us think differently
Peetzakilla posted a comment that included an issue I felt was worth responding to: "This sort of thread has been brought up before, generally it has encountered a hostility that I find odd."
The next post of mine dealt with another issue I felt was worth responding to, the perception that folks don't want to talk about things because of trauma and such. So rather than a waste of time, my posts were in direct response to a subject of interest to me and a direct response to an issue brought up in another post.
I think that it is in bad taste that you post things here.
You have no idea how little that concerns me.
Go post on another thread that you might be interested in.
I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that you were the magical internet pixie who determined what everyone else was interested in. If you don't want to read a response, don't read it. Don't try to tell folks who should and should not post on a topic.

I will point out that there is probably nothing that is a greater waste of time than posting about how someone else's post is a waste of time.

OldMarksman
April 29, 2009, 02:54 PM
So far as the legal aspect, I would guess that it would be self-evident that if you are or could be in any form of legal jeopardy then you should keep your mouth shut.

Well, it should be self evident, and I'm confident that it certainly is to you, Peetzakilla, but I'll wager that to many, it isn't.

To wit: a person who, according to Mas Ayoob, was involved in a "good shoot" was nonetheless convicted and sentenced to prison because the prosecution was able to use what he said to the police after the shooting against him in court. Thus, we are advised to not talk to the police after an incident until we have conferred with counsel. There has been a link posted here to a pretty good lecture on the subject.

Similarly, we are advised to not make any statements to the media, and for the same reason.

And so on--any statements that cannot be suppressed as hearsay could be damaging. That could include email or statements in other media.

I'm sure we've all heard those things, but many people might think that those concerns simply go away when the incident seems to have been resolved without charges having been filed or an indictment having been returned.

But--since there is no statute of limitations for murder, it is my lay understanding that the only sure way to know that a "good shoot" involving a justifiable homicide cannot be re-evaluated upon the emergence of new evidence is a trial and acquittal. I do not know the limits on a case that may have involved a shooting or just the production of a weapon but no death.

Nor do I know the limitations on civil remedies.

I just know to be very careful, and I think that's worth sharing.

I agree with the OP and with Creature that real accounts can be enlightening, and toward that end I read books on the subject. I have also learned from postings here, but none have involved a "shoot-out." I would not want anyone to put himself or herself in danger because of not knowing the pitfalls, however.

Earlier, the OP asked if I would mind relating three incidents I've been involved in. I do not mind.

In 1964, when I was home alone, a man began attempting to break through the kitchen door. The speed and violence were such that calling the police was out of the question. I started to run out through the front but I realized he would have access to my gun rack, which was not properly secured. I grabbed a revolver and tapped on the glass of a small window with it. He took off. My take on lessons learned? (1) Have the weapon readily available (which I did), and (2) call the police immediately (which I stupidly did not).

Four years later, my mother let a woman into the house to use the telephone after her car had run empty. I heard a scuffle downstairs, grabbed a Smith & Wesson 9mm, and slipped down quietly, staying out of sight. A man had followed the woman into the house. After he had knocked both women down (no potential for a hostage situation then) and announced his intention to kill them, I showed the weapon, said some things that changed his mind, and ordered him out. My take on lessons learned? (1) Don't let strangers into the house, and (2) report the incident to the police (I was dissuaded at the time).

Some time after that I was in a cabin in Colorado far from any town. No phone (or pool, or pets:)).

You can see Black Angus cattle by starlight up there in the mountains at night, and on this night there was a full moon. I heard someone jimmying the back door with something, and then a side window, and then another window, and then another. I could see his silhouette through the curtains. He finally turned his attention to the front door and gained entry. The bright moonlight through the open door and the windows may have even given him a view of the rifling in my Colt SAA revolver in .45 Colt. Hippie, very stoned, naked except for a peace medallion and a headband--I'll never forget watching him run away toward a moraine. Lesson: Don't cock a revolver unless you are going to fire! Dumb! I had wanted to make sure I was ready, and did not consider the risks. And maybe I had heard the sound ("C-O-L-T") in too many movies.

Perhaps the overarching lesson is that one should not count SD shootings as a measure of the effectiveness or value of civilian gun ownership. I never fired a shot, but had I not been armed, these outcomes would not have been reported here!

Enoy21
April 29, 2009, 03:12 PM
Great post Marksman !!

I too hope that in ANY situation that I may need to draw that the realization that I have a firearm and that I nor anyone around me totally defenseless will be enough to dissuade a would be perpetrator. ( Best case scenario )

As a matter of fact , I ask my GF to keep her nightstand gun loaded but with one not in the chamber , so that in the event she hears someone enter, she can announce " I HAVE A GUIN AND AM CALLING THE POLICE " while also racking the slide so that any intruder will hopefully hear the sound and know she is not making empty threats...

Although ... she has a huge Weimaraner ( damn that's hard to spell ) dog and a little yappy toy fox terrier that will give plenty of head notice ( they bark at the slightest noises or smells )... and the more I think about it , the less likely an attacker would even be able to hear her over the dogs barking...


I'm glad you didn't shoot the naked hippy ...

Creature
April 29, 2009, 04:12 PM
But--since there is no statute of limitations for murder, it is my lay understanding that the only sure way to know that a "good shoot" involving a justifiable homicide cannot be re-evaluated upon the emergence of new evidence is a trial and acquittal. I do not know the limits on a case that may have involved a shooting or just the production of a weapon but no death.

Nor do I know the limitations on civil remedies.

I just know to be very careful, and I think that's worth sharing.

I agree with the OP and with Creature that real accounts can be enlightening, and toward that end I read books on the subject. I have also learned from postings here, but none have involved a "shoot-out." I would not want anyone to put himself or herself in danger because of not knowing the pitfalls, however.

If someone chooses to post their experiences, so what? We are all big kids here. If a person chooses to reply, then we should read it and learn from their experience. It is not in our realm of responsibility to caution him or her on the possible legal ramifications of doing so.

OldMarksman
April 29, 2009, 04:50 PM
If someone chooses to post their experiences, so what? We are all big kids here. If a person chooses to reply, then we should read it and learn from their experience. It is not in our realm of responsibility to caution him or her on the possible legal ramifications of doing so.

I'm afraid I cannot agree with that sentiment. If I happen to have learned something through experience or otherwise--how to expose a photograph in certain light, how to cast a lure, how to breathe when shooting a rifle off-hand, what neighborhoods might best be avoided, how to get from one place to another in rush hour, or how to avoid unwittingly creating unfavorable evidence,I believe it altogether proper to share it.

If you choose to not help your fellow man, that is your decision. It is not mine.

Wasn't the man Mas referred to, who was imprisoned for homicide, a "big kid"? Might he not have benefitted from some help before the fact?

You would "read it and learn from his experience", but not offer your own? I do not understand that point of view at all.

Creature
April 29, 2009, 04:53 PM
So you would rather censor and silence your fellow forum members?...for their own good?

If they want to share their experiences, then they should be able to share...unmolested.

hogdogs
April 29, 2009, 05:09 PM
Is there a SoL on RICO? Not everyone was a Military, LEO or armored car guard...
Brent

OldMarksman
April 29, 2009, 05:11 PM
So you would rather censor and silence your fellow forum members?...for their own good?

Absolutely not! I choose to censor or silence no one. I simply believe that everyone should know in advance the possible ramifications of discussing or putting to paper certain kinds of things except in the context of privileged legal communications. Mas Ayoob refers to the subject (the dangers of internet postings) in some of his books, along with what to say to the police and what not to say, and along with advice to avoid the media. Not everyone has read them. Also, it may not be obvious to everyone that that "curtain" may not magically lift except in the case of a trial.

By the way, this extends far beyond the subject of self defense. People have lost employment, been subjected to investigations and trials, lost judgments, and have even served time simply because of what they said to whom, wrote down, or sent electronically. That does not always mean that they were necessarily guilty of anything--it just means that there was evidence that may have seemed to indicate as much, or that cast doubt on their credibility, at least when taken out of context.

Of course, I'm sure you know all of that.

If they want to share their experiences, then they should be able to share...unmolested.

Unmolested?

Tennessee Gentleman
April 29, 2009, 05:45 PM
Mas Ayoob refers to the subject (the dangers of internet postings) in some of his books, along with what to say to the police and what not to say, and along with advice to avoid the media. Not everyone has read them. Also, it may not be obvious to everyone that that "curtain" may not magically lift except in the case of a trial.

And he is right. A security guard around here is going through a civil law suit right now because he shot a fellow (apparently a legal shoot) but went on a Forum (I hope not here) and shot his mouth off and they are using what he said on there in the case against him. Every single post I make on here I make with the idea that it will be in the NY Times tomorrow and it may be!

David Armstrong
April 29, 2009, 06:19 PM
So you would rather censor and silence your fellow forum members?...for their own good?
Offering suggestions and giving advice does not constitute censoring anyone, and I believe the only people that can silence forum members are the mods and staff.
If they want to share their experiences, then they should be able to share...unmolested.
They are able to share, but any posts on an open forum become subject to and available for "molestation". Which is why some folks don't like to post some things.

Deaf Smith
April 29, 2009, 06:48 PM
Long time ago, on our honeymoon, my wife and I were in the Virgin Islands. We were in Charotte. Walking in one of the ondoor malls. Well, a purse snatcher snatched a womans purse behind us and ran past. My wife, pointed at him and said, "go".

So, dummy me, threw off my hat and glasses and ran after him. In front of him a guy grabed him in a hug. I got up there and put on a wrist lock on his free hand. Between both of us he went down, tried to get up, and then stayed down. A rather large Virgin Island cop (read overweight) came by and cuffed him. My wife, who saw the snatcher throw the purse down, retrieved it and give it back to the woman. He never threw a punch, and I suspect he knew if he did that he would be in more trouble legal wise.

BTW they had Glocks back in the VI. And us tourist have zero. No pepper spray, no knives, no nothing.

Yes it happed fast. So fast I didn't even think of things like, what if he has a knife? I really didn't have time to think of it was 'right' or if it was safe or not. Just ran and grabbed.

And yes, he could have had a knife and stabbed the other guy, and as he fell I'd have been alone with a rather tall crazed crook with a knife and me having him in a wrist lock (but NOT head lock or any serious way to keep him from using that knife.)

People here would have read about a newly wed who was stabbed to death on his honnymoon has he confronted a purse snatcher.... and I have no doubt that has happend before.

The thing I remember most is I did the basics without thinking. If I had of had no training I guess I would have stood there and grabbed a leg or something.

So after that, I spend much more time on SD than on the 'art' of the martial arts.

That was way back in '92!

Housezealot
April 29, 2009, 07:09 PM
Well at the risk of being accosted for sharing my experiance I will proceed with my story any how.
I learned one thing from my incident, even if you didn't need to pull the trigger call the police when you are in the right.
when I was 22 or 23 I was stuck at home for several months after a surgery, My truck was parked at my parents house being that I could not drive it. and my wife had left for work so there was no vehicle in our parking spots outside our apartment. It was probably about 6:30 in the morning and I had just got off the phone with my wife when I heard our front door open. I knew it wasn't my wife and she was the only other person that had a key aside from the apartment managment. I had several pins and a plate in my leg and of course had moments before tossed the phone out of reach, so I got out of my lazy boy as quick as I could muster (which was not quick) and picked up my carry piece which was not far away and before I could even consider getting the phone, our bedroom door opened and there was the maintance drunk holding a pint looking just as suprised to see me as I was to see him. as he was trying to stammer out a explanation, I trained my gun on him and managed something to the tune of "get the &*^^% out of my apartment, and he did fast. I then picked up the phone (and here is the part I regret) and decided not to call the police. I was still pretty young and not that confident in my rights, I was worried that I would be held at fault for a couple of reasons. 1) he used a key to get in. 2) I was on pain killers at the time. 3)I was young, tattooed and thought that would be held against me.

when the apartments leasing office opened at 8 or 9 I got my walker out (proud moment, Iknow:() and dragged my but down there to raise hell.
they were shocked, sorry sorry sorry...... there was no maintance schedueled... sorry sorry sorry and so on. they told me they would check into it. I am sure that the guy must have still been sauced when they caught up to him because I never saw him again.
but boy do I regret not calling the police, I was in the right and knew it, but still I was worried. I hope I never have the oppurtunity to make that mistake again, but I can tell you this I will not make that mistake again.
for what its worth I hope telling this story helps someone else make the right decision.

stilettosixshooter
April 29, 2009, 07:35 PM
I hope I never have the oppurtunity to make that mistake again...

Also, always have a keyless deadbolt if you rent!! It's required by law in Texas, and I always have mine bolted when I am home. I never want to be disturbed by a landlord/maintenance person - either intentionally or otherwise! It might be a very dangerous encounter.

Housezealot
April 29, 2009, 07:39 PM
and thats the sads part, I did have a deadbolt but after my wife left I was too lazy to drag my temporarily crippeled but over to lock it.
lesson learned

stilettosixshooter
April 29, 2009, 07:41 PM
Ohh, I didn't think of that :( Sorry, dude!

Housezealot
April 29, 2009, 07:42 PM
no I was capable, just lazy:p

comn-cents
April 29, 2009, 08:20 PM
House
Thanks for sharing & staying on subject.
I was hurt a few months back and never considered being armed in my house at the time. Of course I have two large dogs. But next time it will be closer at hand.

OldMarksman
April 29, 2009, 09:15 PM
Every single post I make on here I make with the idea that it will be in the NY Times tomorrow and it may be!

Tennessee, that's an excellent way to look at it. We were told the same thing repeatedly when I was in corporate life. And for some people, it proved to be true.

Of course, an ill-considered post may not ultimately put the poster at risk; it could, however, give ammo to the antis.

Well at the risk of being accosted for sharing my experiance I will proceed with my story any how.

House, your story sounds like some of mine--the presence of the gun prevented trouble. no shots were fired, trouble was avoided, and we should have called the police.

I don't see that you had a choice, and I can't for the life of me see any reason for anyone "accosting" you for sharing.

Rifleman 173
April 29, 2009, 09:30 PM
People who know me already know that I've been through too many of these incidents. I spent 19 months with the paratroopers in Viet Nam. In those days every single day somebody in my battalion was exchanging shots with the enemy. You can actually grow numb to the sound of gunfire, bullets whizzing by, helicopters beating the air into submission and the whang of artillery fire. You also find yourself in some very unusual situations too.

One night I was part of a recon team that was running an ambush a couple of hundred yards from an American position. Sometime after midnight a firefight erupted between some V.C. and the American position that we were near. As a result of that conflict all six of us on the recon/ambush team found ourselves tucked down into some holes in the ground as both red and green tracers arced through the night sky directly over our heads. None of us on the team got hurt but that was one hell of a fireworks display we saw that night.

So the amount of gunfights and such depends on where you live, what you've done in the past, the job you hire on to do. Some of us have had the high number of shootings but most of us just don't want to talk about them a whole lot.

Hunley
April 29, 2009, 09:46 PM
I was involved in a scenario in Atlanta where I had to draw. No shots were fired.

It was mid-April of last year. I was moving back down from NW Georgia to the college town of Statesboro near Savannah. I had loaded up my band new car, and was four months post-op from having most of my lumbar fused (L3-S1). I had just that week completed my last physical therapy, and, as any college kid would be, had my car loaded down with 90% of everything I owned at the time. I had gotten a 24oz. cup of coffee before I got on the highway, and by the time I hit Atlanta, my eyeballs were floating.

I was taking I-285 (the Atlanta bypass) to go around the usually horrible traffic found on I-75. It was longer, but usually quicker and less hectic. As I said, I had to pee like a racehorse. I pulled off on an exit and whipped into a parking spot on the front, right-hand corner of the convenience store. I was the only car in the parking lot and no one was on the pumps (it was about 9 in the morning on a Sunday).

There was a payphone on the corner which I had parked, and a woman was standing in front of it. I stepped out, and she politely asked me for 50 cents to use the payphone. I had it to spare, and didn't really mind. Besides, there was a cold front in the area that had brought a cold, misty rain.

I started digging in my pockets when her buddy, an African-American male, started running towards us from around the other corner of the building. I glanced over in time to see him jump off the curb onto the pavement while pulling something out of his pocket. He was running towards me, and she was backing up. I put my hand on the grip of a still concealed S&W 66-2 with a 4"bll in a Fobus paddle holster under my windbreaker. He pulled his hand out and whipped open a small tactical folder. I don't even remember drawing, but I whipped it out, pulled the hammer back, and had my finger on the trigger guard.

He froze, dropped the knife, and lost control of his bladder at the same time. His baggy, bright red sweatpants had a growing dark red spot. The woman looked at him, looked at me, then back at him. He looked at her, then back at me. I told him to slowly pick up the knife and put it back up. He did, and I reholstered my revolver. I threw the 50 cents at the woman and said "God bless. Y'all have a nice day." I walked in the store after making sure they walked off and making note of where they went. I asked the clerk, who was on the phone, if he had seen what just happened. "What?" was his response. He had been iting down yacking on the phone behind the counter. Missed the whole damn thing. No cameras out front either. I went and used the bathroom as I was about to wet my own pants.

Never called the cops. I remember what they look like to this day. In a way, I regret not calling the police. Hopefully he learned his lesson.

Now, before anyone says I shouldn't have cocked the hammer (which in hindsight may have been a no-no), keep in mind what condition I was in. I had just recovered form a 5 hour surgery fixing my lumbar. The three disks not removed were decompressed and had a laminectomy performed around them. My neurosurgeon said something like this would have taken me 9-12 months to recover from if I was 40. My back may have been strong enough to stop PT and move back, but it was not strong enough to have someone stab and/or tackle me. Just glad I'm okay.

OldMarksman
April 29, 2009, 09:56 PM
Great story, Hunley!

You had had a pint and a half of coffee, and it was he who, uh, lost control.

Well, as they say, it was you or him!:)

I think we really have to train ourselves to not cock the hammer and to shoot double action. Frankly, that was new to me when I took the CCW class last summer. At least you had your finger on the guard.

That's another one of those no-shots-fired events where having the gun proved crucial.

Enoy21
April 29, 2009, 10:08 PM
Marksman , While again I respect and understand your views ....



If you choose to not help your fellow man, that is your decision. It is not mine.



This is a decision of the poster ... weather to help his fellow man by sharing his experiences.... It is up to us to as the readers to read them and try to understand them and put them into practice. To try and better understand the real life emotions and scenarios that we may not have otherwise expected or planed on.


I created this thread in the hopes that others (my fellow men ) may help me and others to better prepare and understand what to expect in given situations... It is often said " The likely hood of you ever having to draw your gun is so rare ..... " and while this may be true , I would like to be better educated in how to handle the situations where it IS necessary and how others handled it... to learn from their mistakes or to follow their lead... ( as is also often said) " A wise man learns from the mistakes of others "



For the posters that have given their experiences and information , I thank you , each one has given me another perspective to look at situations and has better ARMED me with knowledge of the possibilities .... I hope to see me more following this post.

Enoy21
April 29, 2009, 10:15 PM
Hunley , Thank you also for that .... Between you , Marksman and others I have seen a few replies that CONFIRM the need to carry a weapon ... Thankfully with no shots fired , the presence of a weapon for self defense ( under 2nd right ) has avoided a very dangerous situation.



Please , continue to share your stories !!

Brian Pfleuger
April 30, 2009, 10:03 AM
Also, always have a keyless deadbolt if you rent!! It's required by law in Texas, and I always have mine bolted when I am home.

It can be illegal in other places. I used to own rental property in NY state, the landlord must be able to gain access to the apartment in an emergency. Keyless deadbolts or others locks they cannot open are a no-no. (At least they were 4 or 5 years ago.)

SquidWarrior
April 30, 2009, 10:54 AM
This is a valid thread and a valid question, completely in line with Tactics and Training. For many who have been involved in shootings, its hard to talk about. This group involves me. I was involved in a shooting once while working plane clothes at a military sponcered concert that was open to the public. Like an earlier poster said:

One time while I was in le & lets just say we went home

+1

I shed teers for a man that tried to kill my shipmate that night.


Bottom line, give only the information that you are comfortable giving. No one says you have to answer.

Creature
April 30, 2009, 01:01 PM
They are able to share, but any posts on an open forum become subject to and available for "molestation". Which is why some folks don't like to post some things.

The point is that members who post their experiences dont need to be warned of the potential legal problems of doing so by other members who harbor a need to be nannys.

David Armstrong
April 30, 2009, 01:47 PM
You make an unsubstantiated claim that such warnings are done because one needs to be a nanny. Such warning advice is no more nanny-ish than any other form of "be careful out there" commentary. One can give advice for a number of reasons.

Willie Lowman
April 30, 2009, 01:55 PM
I had a thread where I told the details of pointing my shotgun at a drunk kid who had broken into my apartment. He and his buddy took off when one of my roommates said that he was calling the cops.

That happened 8 years ago. I made a lot of "tactical" mistakes in that brief encounter. No body got hurt. The cops got called and the drunks got arrested later on.

I received some good advise from that thread but I was shocked by the number of responses that told me that I had made a mistake by not taking the lives of two guys who were out numbered, out gunned (they were unarmed), and so drunk they could hardly stand.

David Armstrong
April 30, 2009, 02:10 PM
I received some good advise from that thread but I was shocked by the number of responses that told me that I had made a mistake by not taking the lives of two guys who were out numbered, out gunned (they were unarmed), and so drunk they could hardly stand.

Some folks seem to take to heart the immortal words of Weird Al Yankovic;
Got an AK-47, well you know it makes me feel all right
Got an Uzi by my pillow, helps me sleep a little better at night
There's no feeling any greater
Than to shoot first and ask questions later
Now I'm trigger happy, trigger happy every day

Creature
April 30, 2009, 02:21 PM
You make an unsubstantiated claim that such warnings are done because one needs to be a nanny.

Unsubstantiated? Of course they are nannyish. Those posts offer nothing but admonishments based on an unfounded claim that the posts in question have created legal problems for the poster.

Okay...since he opened that door: has there EVER been a substantiated case where a narrative forum post that recounted a first-person experience which involved a firearm ended with a conviction or any other legal problems? If there has, please cite them.

Until then, his admonishments are nothing more than an increase in the noise to signal ratio of the original post's asking for forum members to relate and share their personal experiences.

KingEdward
April 30, 2009, 02:22 PM
I am not too interested in the statements some make. Like "I'll grab my XD and go COM until they're on a stretcher" or when I read statements such as, "in my house, at 3 am, there will be no asking questions".

I too can make bold statements or can speak before thinking.

I am very interested in doing the best job I can in staying aware, being prepared, and if/when duty calls (SD in home or on street) only shooting to protect my life and/or family life.

I think the hardest thing I think about sometimes is being woken up at 4 am. standing my ground near the bedroom (I will not clear or go inspecting if the alarm is sounding) and then here comes the BG in my house towards the sleeping quarters and it's a kid. Not my kid but some 13 year old either stealing for drugs or maybe being gang initiated. Shooting all of sudden still seems a possibity and I'm not one to want to get into holding people and all that. That's one of the only situations I can think of where I might light him up with a mag lite and be real verbal and go from there.

But there are still variables / does he have associates outside/inside, is he armed? is he hight?

markj
April 30, 2009, 03:22 PM
In the late 50s my Grandma was home when a guy tried to get in the back door, she got the shotgun and loaded it up. Got back to that room just as he got the door open, he had a knife, she shot him point blank and he died right there. She wasnt arrested, in those days it was considered justified. She is gone now but I always admired her spunk and keen wit.

Saw a silly shooting once. Was on a hunting trip in the early 60s, 2 guys had been hitting the sauce and argueing about the effectivness of a shotgun and number 6 shot at 50 feet. So one guy paces it out and turns his back to the shooter who shot him with 6 shot. It penetrated the coat and his back, they dug some shot out of him that afternoon. Probably why I hunt alone these days or with my brother only.

My godfather was in Nam round 65 or 66, he was shot in the back by a full auto, showed me the scars, wasnt pretty, said he got a bunch of them till he was over run and turned to get under cover when he was shot up.

2 guys I worked with in the 70s were Nam vets, one carried the other a long way after his lower leg was shot up. Bad scar but still on 2 feet and still around altho he has slowed down a bit.

Guns are not play thing nor is getting shot or shooting someone else a happy time. Not to be made lite of IMHO.

LordofWar
April 30, 2009, 04:27 PM
Whats with grandmas & shotguns :P

LordofWar
April 30, 2009, 04:28 PM
+ 10 KindEdward

LordofWar
April 30, 2009, 04:30 PM
Long time ago, on our honeymoon, my wife and I were in the Virgin Islands. We were in Charotte. Walking in one of the ondoor malls. Well, a purse snatcher snatched a womans purse behind us and ran past. My wife, pointed at him and said, "go".

lol

Thats what they teach to dobes & rotts.

I hope your still not being treated this way. :P She wouldnt have to carry a firearm, all she needs to do is say GO!

David Armstrong
April 30, 2009, 06:43 PM
Unsubstantiated?
Yes, unsubstantiated. Unless you have developed the power of reading people's mind, you have no way to know what is the intent of such a statement. Thus such statements as "members who harbor a need to be nannys" is completely unsubstantiated, and given the tenor of the post as a whole, I would suggest that developing such an idea is a rather long stretch without any support.
Okay...since he opened that door: has there EVER been a substantiated case where a narrative forum post that recounted a first-person experience which involved a firearm ended with a conviction or any other legal problems?
Could be, but I'm not aware of any that meet that specific criteria. However, given the fact that postings on the internet have been used for disciplinary actions in a numbe of instances, and given that the courts have determined that internet postings can (and have) be used as evidence in civil and criminal trials, it is certainly a valid and reasonable concern.
Until then, his admonishments are nothing more than an increase in the noise to signal ratio of the original post's asking for forum members to relate and share their personal experiences.
As opposed to the increase in the noise to signal ratio of your posts griping about what other members have posted??

OldMarksman
April 30, 2009, 08:27 PM
The point is that members who post their experiences dont need to be warned of the potential legal problems of doing so by other members who harbor a need to be nannys.

Ok. "Don't need to be". Hmmm.

Well, if they are already aware of the potential consequences, they do not "need to be" educated in the first place.

As I read your next post, however, it is not clear to me that you have that awareness.

Those posts [referring the mine] offer nothing but admonishments based on an unfounded claim that the posts in question have created legal problems for the poster.

No, not "the posts in question", but potentially any posts....

Okay...since he opened that door: has there EVER been a substantiated case where a narrative forum post that recounted a first-person experience which involved a firearm ended with a conviction or any other legal problems?

As I mentioned before, it is not a firearms-specific issue.

The simple fact is, that any statement made in any forum that does not constitute a privileged legal communication is discoverable and can therefore be used in legal proceedings.

This can take place in the realm of contract disputes, contract award protests, bribery, allegations of accounting fraud, employment discrimination, product misrepresentation, defense of justification of homicide, divorce or custody cases, and who knows what else.

Do you somehow think that things that involve guns differ somehow from things that involve the sale of Senate seats? Nope. The principals are the same. Exactly the same.

There have been verbal statements, recorded or otherwise, notes to the file, memoranda, emails, and other communications that have resulted in the following: (1) investigation, internal, criminal, and other; (2) termination of employment, (3) disbarment, (4) subpoenas, (5) indictments, (6) adverse civil judgments, and (7) criminal convictions in too many cases to list.

Do you think Mas Ayoob has brought this up for no reason at all?

If there has, please cite them.

Sorry, there are far too many that I know of directly or indirectly, and it is not done until after the fact unless one wants to further muddy the issues.

In addition, unless a case has made the papers, neither you nor I will have heard about it. Trial court cases and their details are not logged into a central database. One cannot Google them.

Tennessee Gentleman mentioned one.

I am personally aware of far more than I am happy with.

One has recently come up in Springfield, IL--Governor's office. That case involved wiretaps, but emails would have had the same effect. However, the participants apparently realized that and did not commit anything incriminating to email. Doesn't matter. If it can be retrieved, it's evidence.

When I was in corporate life, this is one of the books we studied:

http://www.amazon.ca/PROTECT-YOURSELF-BUSINESS-LAWSUITS-LAWYERS/dp/0684852675/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241139644&sr=1-5

It's worth reading reading. I trust you can understand that the evidentiary principles that can apply in a case involving restraint of trade, or the theft of intellectual property, etc., can apply equally to a case in which the question at hand was whether a person who fired a gun was in fact in imminent danger of death, or if he was not, whether a homicide was premeditated or not. If you cannot, I do not think I can help you.

Ironically, the author was later working on another book with a man who was later imprisoned. The evidence against him was revealed through electronic records.

What I cannot understand is why you would not want others who might otherwise face the same fate, or at least an expensive, unnerving, and grueling ordeal to be informed in advance of the potential pitfalls so they can avoid it.

Are you concerned that, in their wisdom, they will not post something that you would have enjoyed reading?

hogdogs
April 30, 2009, 08:31 PM
Okay, this is my first cousin Bricie named here... She got a nice fruit basket from the NRA and an offer of legal assistance and counseling if needed... It never was needed. Closest I come to a first hand case that I care to mention...
The Tribune newspaper in Mesa, Ariz. A woman named Bricie Tribble heard a strange noise in her home shortly after midnight and decided to investigate. She was accompanied by her .45-caliber handgun. Tribble discovered a man rummaging through her purse. According to police, the intruder told her: "I'm going to kill everyone in this house, including you.'' Tribble fired at least one shot, killing the man. Police said he had abducted a woman earlier that evening at a nearby Wal-Mart, drove her to a secluded location, raped and shot her. The victim lived and gave police a description of her assailant.
Brent

OldMarksman
April 30, 2009, 08:46 PM
In the late 50s my Grandma was home when a guy tried to get in the back door, she got the shotgun and loaded it up. Got back to that room just as he got the door open, he had a knife, she shot him point blank and he died right there. She wasnt arrested, in those days it was considered justified.

I anyone thinks that would not be justified today it would be interesting to hear why.

Hondo11
April 30, 2009, 09:14 PM
The problem with the "don't like to talk about it" argument is that the answer to that is way too simple: Don't.

These threads are not a demand for information. It's a request. "Hey, anybody, if this has happened to you, please share."

It's not even a question directly to any individual, where you might feel awkward to refuse to talk about it.

If you don't want to share, don't. Not commenting at all means no one ever even knows anything happened.

Yeah, but if they simply don't talk about it, then how do they tell everyone they're a real life gunfighter and get everyone to think they're the expert? It's kind of tricky. They want everyone to know (or assume/think) they have been in a shootout, but at the same time they don't want to appear too eager to tell everyone. Your solution doesn't work...:)

markj
May 1, 2009, 02:09 PM
Whats with grandmas & shotguns

A double is easy to load and use, besides it was the most common firearm at the time. Most everyone has a shotgun in this area. Now my Mom uses a
.357 :) she almost never misses.

stilettosixshooter
May 1, 2009, 09:37 PM
Tribble fired at least one shot, killing the man.

+100 for having a .45 and knowing how to use it!

hogdogs
May 1, 2009, 09:41 PM
The county cops chose not to release the fact that from the moment he began forward progress on her, she got off 4-5 of the .45 colt rounds from the wheel gun as he was falling forward:D
Brent

digisol
May 3, 2009, 03:22 AM
Had on one occasion no time as range officer, the new shooter turned around (with gun) when asking what cease fire, unload & show clear meant.

I grabbed the loaded 45 with my palm over the allready cocked hammer, worked just fine but I would not advise it on all occasions.

He did pull the trigger, but all was good.