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LordofWar
April 28, 2009, 03:25 PM
For medium game beyond 600 yds.

What would you choose and why?

trooper3385
April 28, 2009, 03:31 PM
I wouldn't use either one. Get closer, then it doesn't really make a difference.

LordofWar
April 28, 2009, 03:34 PM
It gets easier the closer you get. It's all about beyond 600 yards.

You have a choice starting from .243 (even a .223) to n for within 300-500 yards.

masterhunter
April 28, 2009, 04:25 PM
7 RM shooting 162 grain A-max's kissing the lands with a lupy spinning turrets........that was easy

LordofWar
April 28, 2009, 04:55 PM
Why?

masterhunter
April 28, 2009, 04:58 PM
Wont have to spin the turret as much on that combo as any other = faster!

hardluk1
April 28, 2009, 05:55 PM
Why try to shoot game beyound a range that does not allow you to make a good judgement call as to what you are looking at to shot is worth shooting. Is it large or small ,spike buck or doe, get the meaning. I shoot a 7rem mag . And beyound 400 yards bullet fall really starts to get your attention as a range finder of top quality is a most and a great spotting scope. Then a 300 win mag to keep the energy up at those longer distances. Bad idea to begine with. Stay with target shooting beyound 400yards.

glockman55
April 28, 2009, 06:16 PM
Is this a debate or a ??
The question was:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7mm Rem Mag Vs .308

For medium game beyond 600 yds.

What would you choose and why?

I would go with the 7mm, mag..flatter shooter

LordofWar
April 28, 2009, 06:20 PM
I think .300 Win Mag should be added to the comparison as well.
:/

davlandrum
April 28, 2009, 06:40 PM
I think "I don't shoot at game at 600" should also be added:cool:

LordofWar
April 28, 2009, 07:07 PM
Why? Thats when the REAL game starts.

jmr40
April 28, 2009, 07:30 PM
I do not have the skills to make those shots, but I know people who can do it and the 7 mag is the clear winner here. The 308 is capable of making hits at well over 600 yards with a good shot, but I would worry about the energy remaining.

tblt44
April 28, 2009, 07:45 PM
7 mm mag flat shooting thats why I got mine

pilothunter
April 28, 2009, 07:48 PM
I would not use either to "hunt" big game at those ranges.

sasquatch
April 28, 2009, 08:58 PM
I would not use either to "hunt" big game at those ranges.

Amen to that........nor "medium game", either.

masterhunter
April 28, 2009, 09:28 PM
I would not use either to "hunt" big game at those ranges. Why?

Daryl
April 28, 2009, 09:30 PM
The 7mm mag is faster, and flatter shooting.

I see no advantage in the .308 over the 7mm Rem Mag for long range shooting.

That said, I don't much care for shots over about 500 yards. Even on those, I'm careful about what shots I take.

Daryl

bcarver
April 28, 2009, 09:30 PM
My longest shot ever was 285 yards. Slightly under half (600) what you ask of your round. Closest was about 7 to 11 yards.

masterhunter
April 28, 2009, 09:36 PM
I think .300 Win Mag should be added to the comparison as well.Why? the 7mm with 162 A-max's will trump any .300 laod you can come up with in both energy and trajectory.....

Art Eatman
April 28, 2009, 10:31 PM
Hey, all it takes to be good at 600 yards is hundreds and hundreds of rounds of practice, and a really great ability to dope the wind. Isn't that what all of us do?

But is that critter at 575, or maybe 625? There's a fair difference in the trajectory, maybe a foot, foot-and-a-half with a 7 Maggie.

And "just a breeze" will give you some five feet of wind drift...

I've never messed around beyond 500 yards, but it's a bunch different from the easy stuff of 300 yards on in.

But, yeah, the Maggie will do better than the .308...

sasquatch
April 28, 2009, 10:57 PM
But, yeah, the Maggie will do better than the .308...

Maggie?

I thought we were discussing the 7mm Remington Magnum, not some lap-dancer.

Jekyll
April 28, 2009, 11:19 PM
7mm, like others said because it's a flatter shooter. I dropped a trotting bull elk at 450 yards with 1 broadside shot in the center chest using a 175 gr. Nosler Partition handload. He folded on impact and slid down a shale draw. He thrashed a bit but never got back up. I wouldn't have taken the shot at 600 yards even if he was standing. Deer are a much smaller target even though there is less to punch through. 1 MOA is 6 inches at 600 yards which doesn't give much room for ANY error on deer size game. Under hunting situations with adrenaline and rapid heart beats you are clearly in the messy hit/clean miss zone. My 7 shoots Noslers under .7 MOA.

sasquatch
April 28, 2009, 11:35 PM
the 7mm with 162 A-max's will trump any .300 laod you can come up with in both energy and trajectory...

My understanding is that the Hornady A-Max is a match-grade target bullet, not a hunting bullet.

masterhunter
April 28, 2009, 11:38 PM
Keep understanding it like that then........try it once it'll make a believer out of you.

sasquatch
April 28, 2009, 11:40 PM
Keep understanding it like that then.

Well, my understanding is from reading what Hornady says about their bullets. I do believe I'll go with what the manufacturer recommends.

Hornady makes very good hunting bullets.....the A-Max just isn't one of them.

masterhunter
April 28, 2009, 11:42 PM
Sorry about your loss................

sc928porsche
April 29, 2009, 08:46 AM
Thanks for the laugh Master

davlandrum
April 29, 2009, 10:46 AM
Why? Thats when the REAL game starts.

Sorry, this is off topic, but you asked.

1) I do not (and won't) practice at 600. And if I am not sure I can do it, it is not a hunting distance for me.

2) If I did practice it and considered it hunting range, I honestly can not think of any spot where I hunt where I could even see an animal at 600, let alone have a shot.

3) That may be your idea of "the REAL game", my idea of the REAL game is when bow hunting trying to close the gap from 100 yds to 30 yds.

I have been lucky enough to be within touching distance of elk twice. That is the best thing in the world to me, even though I did not get a shot either time.

kyle1974
April 29, 2009, 11:28 AM
I shoot a 7 mag and take pigs at distances out to 500 yards. My furthest shot was on a ~140 lb hog at about 490 yards. I have distances on my lease that I know within 10-20 yards where I'm at to take a lot fo the guess work out of the equation. Usually it comes down to guessing the wind, and hoping the pig doesn't move very much when I shoot.

I think it's a blast personally. I don't see how shooting a pig at 600 yards with a 7 mag is unethical, but shooting one in the head at 50 yards with a 17 HMR isn't...

have fun with it... pick the 7 mag.... more powder, flatter shooting, and I think you can find hunting bullets with better BC.

LordofWar
April 29, 2009, 12:51 PM
So the majority goes with 7mm Rem Mag.

But why would nayone prefer .308?

masterhunter
April 29, 2009, 12:57 PM
Theres no fly's on the .308........you used them 2 as a comparison.

The .308 is a great little round capable of 1K easily, stocked with 190 SMK's or 208 A-max's it'll do the job well.

As a matter of fact for long distance shooting the 7mm/08 and .308 is my fav's but lately been working on the little .260 with 139 grain Scenars.

And as soon as I can get some 140 grain Bergers I'm flying.

Para Bellum
April 29, 2009, 02:52 PM
I think "I don't shoot at game at 600" should also be added
Right! If I can't surely hit a target the size of the games heart at the given distance, I don't shoot. Hunting ethics, IMHO. At 600 one can be happy tho hit the lungs of "medium sized game" with every 5th shot, (IMHO).

prime8
May 1, 2009, 07:04 PM
300 wm That is if its an official entry... 7mm if not. The much heavier bullets in the 300 would make a big difference.

a7mmnut
May 1, 2009, 07:35 PM
Wow. I don't suppose any of you guys saw the show this week on the OC where the Huskemaw Optics long range team took out a beautiful Rocky Mountain ram at 765 yards with one shot from a PURPOSE BUILT 7mm Rem. Mag.? Obviously(as my handle implies), I prefer 7mm's, but past 600 yards?:confused:

"Purpose Built" was the key phrase there. I loved all my .308's, but in my personal battery a shot that long would only go to my .300 Weatherby and 190 gr. Hornadys. With a BC of .491 and a SD of .286, you're not going to trump that with much-unless it's a Berger in a .30-378.:eek: IMO, terminal performance at long range is the key. What is your particular bullet designed to do and at what velocity?

I would take both. Use the .308 and a decent performing bullet out to 300, then switch to the 7mm and 162's or 165's for the "long shot". Again, without performance, optics a shot that long gets real "iffy".


-7-

LongBomber
May 1, 2009, 07:41 PM
So if I can consistently fire a sub 3 inch group at 500 yards from prone w/bipod, under good conditions and I am willing to wait for good conditions and the proper presentation is taking a 500 yard shot un-ethical?? Is that any different than a person who can only get 3 inch groups at 150 yards?

By the way my vote for long distance would be something at least the equivalent to a 300rum...maybe a 338 lapua or the like. Take a look at Best of the Wests videos on youtube I thik they are using a 6.5-284. Out of the two calibers you mentioned - the 7 mag, with 180gr berger VLD bullets

HiBC
May 1, 2009, 08:30 PM
To answer the original question,the 7 rem has an advantage.

I have noticed @ 1090 yds the Amax prints about 14 in higher than a 168 Mk
from my rifle,(same sight setting).

My M-70 will not let me put an A-max in the magazine if it is close to the lands.Ogive vs Overall length

OP wrires from Pakistan.Not all people look at life the same.

But for me,regardless of the range,we owe our prey a swift,clean,death.

Causing suffering is not fun,for me.

Regardless of range,we all remember,and tell,the story of the great shot.

Do we have the courage to say"Yeah,I shot an elk at 640 yds,broke its left rear leg,it rolled,got up.Then I put another in the hindqurters.You should have seen him dragging himselfwith his front legs,etc,etc"

If you can tell the story over and over of "When it goes wrong",go ahead,if you want to call it "Fun".

No,I have not done that.I did see some guides hunting DVD of folks shooting across canyon at elk who were doing just that.

What I did do was shoot a pronghorn at 440 yds with my .257 AI.Instant kill.Neck shot.Problem is,I was aiming heart lung,and a little breeze pushed it over.Just as easy,it would have been a gut shot.I have nothing to be proud of.

I will suggest if I could not choose the better cartridge,and had to ask,I would not have enough ballistic knowledge to be ready to make a clean kill at 600 or more.

Now,there is a great game,Silhouettas Metallicas,where the images of rams,sheep,pigs,etc are made of steel plate and put out at long ranges,and the competitors have to hit and knock over the targets.

That is a great way to have fun at long range.

Para Bellum
May 2, 2009, 02:29 AM
So if I can consistently fire a sub 3 inch group at 500 yards from prone w/bipod, under good conditions and I am willing to wait for good conditions and the proper presentation is taking a 500 yard shot un-ethical?? Is that any different than a person who can only get 3 inch groups at 150 yards?
Your choice. You know what you can do and what your circumstances allow for. I wouldn't do it.

PredatorHunter
May 2, 2009, 09:37 AM
I use them both and love them both equally but they are two completely diffrent ducks. First off let me start by saying 300 yards is a far stretch for me. I can't think of any critters I have shot (or shot at) over that. Most of what I have put on the wall is well under 200. I have shot elk with both but perfer the 7mm Mag with standard 175 SP bullet. The bull I shot in January witht hat combo, dropped like I took his legs out. The cow I shot with my 308took two steps and was dead on her feet. They will both "do it" but IMO the 7MM mag is the ultimate big game rifle. But, don't discount the old war horse either. But at the distances you are talking about. The only advise I can give you is to work on getting closer as neither will do the job 100% of the time.
Elk hunting is unbelieveably HARD work take your time and work in to make the shot way under that it will increase your odds dramatically!

matt_3479
May 2, 2009, 10:22 AM
Why bother shooting that far, you risk wounding your animal which is never good. It doesn't matter what kinda of gun you have you just have to be comfortable shooting it and shooting that distance. I have seen a guy, my best friends dad acuallly shoot a moose at just over 500 yards and it only ran 35 yards and died. He was using a 30-06 with a 180 grain bullet. Now there is no way i could have done that, i use a 270. win so i dont think theres enough power at 500 yards to take a moose but even if there was i dont think i could have made a good shot on a moose. I have taken coyote, whitetail, and mule deer at pretty good ranges with my 270. win like i got a montana mule at 426 yards, and the same trip got my montana whitetail at 278 yards. like normally i wouldn't take a 400-500 yard shot but i couldn't pass and tehre was no way i could get closer, so i did

matt_3479
May 2, 2009, 10:24 AM
Why not just get closer and take the gun you want. Both will do the job but at 600 yards that a far shot and you might injure the animal and not kill it.

mavracer
May 2, 2009, 10:38 AM
So if I can consistently fire a sub 3 inch group at 500 yards from prone w/bipod, under good conditions and I am willing to wait for good conditions and the proper presentation is taking a 500 yard shot un-ethical??
only if you shoot three cold barrel shots allow the weather to change between them and group must be centered.
Also IMHO there is a big difference between a 500yard limit and talking about 600 and out. Also past 600 yards time of flight can allow the animal time to move.Now you got a wounded animal that it's going to take a couple minutes to get to (even if you are Carl Lewis) now you have to start tracking it and it may be 1/2 a mile away (most animals can run faster than you wounded)

The animals deserve better get closer.

hardluk1
May 2, 2009, 11:27 AM
How many of these long distance hunters ,I mean shooters have the ability to make a shot at over 400yards shooting out of a swaying tree stand or leaning on one or just off a drop stick type bypod. Lay'n prone with a bipode on the gun??? Never ever seen a hunter than had that kind of set up except some ex or wana bee sniper types that never let the deer stand around long enough to know what they shot and with the help of a spotter or how many miss's were edited out. Yes a 308 will shot well to a 1000yds but with a drop that is darn hard to keep track of. I also have seen stupid long shots take'n on game with good results, does that make it a skill or just a stupid shot. Just a stupid shot. Anyone watch the sniper show on tv where the guys had a target jump up at distances from 150 yards to 600 yards ,all they had to do was find them and shoot before there window closed on them and this was with a spotter . Most missed there targets more than they carred to talk about. That related more to hunting where you only have a short time to make a judgement on the game ,find the distance and shoot. Ain't none of these calibers or production rifles ready for 600 yard shooting with out to much luck being used up.

Miller77
May 2, 2009, 11:42 AM
600 hundred yards is a long shot with any caliber. With factory loads the 308 only has 1000 pounds of energy out to 500 hundred yards; so if your not loading your own its not really an option. If you are loading your own you could POTENTIALLY use either the 308 or the 7mm mag. The magnum will have more energy and a flatter trajectory though.

masterhunter
May 2, 2009, 11:48 AM
Spinning turrets, doping wind and rangefinding aint rocket science........

700 is the norm and anything under is like taking candy from a baby.

banditt007
May 2, 2009, 11:57 AM
:rolleyes:

LordofWar
May 10, 2009, 07:42 AM
So the 7mm Rem Mag has an edge over .308 because of it's flatter trajectory?

masterhunter
May 10, 2009, 07:58 AM
And energy carrying capabilities.

LordofWar
May 10, 2009, 08:14 AM
Indeed.

ZeroJunk
May 10, 2009, 09:32 AM
For long range big game hunting the fastest bullet you can stand to shoot that is a proper weight and design for the task will compensate more effectively for errors by the shooter.
The 7 mag will simply shoot a similar weight bullet faster than a 308 and with a higher ballistic coefficient. No more to it than that.

Para Bellum
May 10, 2009, 11:06 AM
IMHO the 7mm Rem Mag is outdated by the WSM's (270WSM, 7mmWSM, .300WSM). If you buy a new rifle, go for the internal ballistic advantages of short fat cases (WSM).

LordofWar
May 10, 2009, 11:37 AM
Arranging ammo for 7mm Rem Mag in our part of the world is the most difficult part where a single bullet sells for $10.625 USD per unit that too if/when it is available.

A WSM is a far fetched dream for now.

ojibweindian
May 11, 2009, 09:49 AM
Medium game at 600+ yards? I wouldn't shoot. That's an additional quarter of a mile I'd have to drag something, in addition to the few miles to get back to the truck.

oneounceload
May 11, 2009, 02:54 PM
Personally, shooting game beyond 400 yards, whether the gun is capable of it or not, is unethical and improper - there are way too many variables and chances of just wounding an animal.....not acceptable behavior

GeauxTide
May 12, 2009, 11:37 AM
WSM is Winchester's Sorry Marketing. The triumvirate claim superiority, but don't buck up at the chronograph or the loading bench. On the original topic, I believe that a man should know his limitations. Mine is 300 yards. If I can't get closer, we both walk.

5whiskey
May 12, 2009, 12:49 PM
For all of the ethics concerns of taking game at 600 yds... the OP asking the question is on the complete opposite side of the world that we're on. We don't know his ability, we don't know his situation, and we don't know his purpose.

War may be talking about protecting crops, or protecting other things. While I certainly agree with everyone who has chimed in on ethical shooting, you have to really think about the application. I know men that I would trust and not question taking shots @ 600 yards... and I DO believe in being as ethical and humane as possible. There are alot of people that shouldn't be shooting beyond 100.



With that, the 7mm rem mag is in every way superior at this range. A flatter trajectory definately helps at that range as you're getting into a healthy bullet drop just by being off in range estimation by 50 yards. It's also the very clear winner in energy delivery. .308 starts to peter out pretty quick beyond the range in question.

HiBC
May 12, 2009, 02:52 PM
I just picked up my Sierra loading book and pulled out some interesting data.

I realize published data does not favor the full potential of a 7 Rem mag

But the Sierra recommended hunting load for a 160 Spitzer boat tail was 2900 fps.
The recommended hunting load for a .308 165 gr load was 2670 fps.

In each case ,we are playing by the same rules,Sierras recommended hunting load.

Using the criteria of a +/- 5 inches in trajectory,what sierra calls "Max point blank range",the 308 is 320 yds,the 7 mag is 345 yds.

We can quibble over shades of grey,the point is part of the advantage to the long range high velocity magnum is imaginary.

If a person has the basic skill of using a duplex or other reticle feature to estimate range,the trajectory is friendly enough to cover for a bit of range estimation error.Wind and mirage still have some effect,but its manageable at the 300 something ranges

Velocity is high enough to get excellent bullet performance.Once the game has been sighted,all can be acomplished with confidence using only the scope and rifle at the 300 something yard range.

Now,I do shoot targets at 1000 yds,and more.I do have a Leica rangefinder,Sierra's ballistic software,a chronograph,and a 4.5 to 14 Leupold Mark 4 on Nightforce 20 minute bases .It has a Kenton knob calibrated for 162 gr Hornady SST's at 3050 fps at a 5000 ft elevation.Its on a 7 mm Rem mag Laredo.It's my "Watching over spring calving" rifle.

I just suggest game seldom holds a pose where I can see them at 600 yds.
At those ranges,30 yds or so of range estimation error can cause blown backstraps or a broken leg. A thread of wind in the canyon that doesnt touch the leaves can push my bullet.My animal can take a step as the trigger breaks.
Ah,but we can spot the game with binoculars,then switch to the laser rangefinder,then put it down and pick up the rifle and find a position.All of this requires moving.Motion is easily seen.It takes time.Has our animal moved?

Try,early in the morning,dawn,sandbag a riflescope on a target at 600 + yards.Wait till the sun begins to heat the ground,then without touching the scope,look again? How is the elevation? Off 2 or 3 feet?Mirage.It works the same as when we put a stick in water.The stick seems to bend.Mirage appears to move the target.

From the military sniper skills we have learned a lot,and we have new toys.Thats nice.Those military snipers are even better at sneaking up closer to their target that they are at shooting.

Anyway,I'm not a want to be sniper.I have too much respect for the real thing to entertain Walter Mitty fantasies.I know who I am not.

You all,live how you want to,but for me,hunting is different than that.

Unless maybe if I see a coyote....

ZeroJunk
May 12, 2009, 05:02 PM
The difference between a clean kill and a nasty wound could be 1/2 inch, or less. A faster similar weight and BC bullet is less effected by gravity and wind over the same range. You can't get around it.

Personally, I can't hit a car at 600 yards.

Hello123
May 13, 2009, 04:45 PM
Berger 180 grainers 7mm, have BC greater than 7. Slick little bullets. To me, the .308 offers nothing in this arena.

For that matter and that distance, why not build a dedicated rig if money available. How about this: bedded in McMillan A5 stock, remington action trued up or after market action, heavy contour match barrel about 28 inches long plus or minus a brake, and 7mm STW or 7mm ultra mag or 300 win mag or 300 ultra mag. Badger bases and rings plus a leupold 8-25x50 tactical scope.

If money is an issue, get a remington 700 with a nikon monarch scope 4-16 in 7 mag.

Either way give it lots of practice. When you start shooting at distance, it makes you realize that the cerebral game of which is better cartridge wise is not that important, because you realize until you practice more you won't be shooting at distance at live game.

Hello123
May 13, 2009, 04:54 PM
by the way, I think long range hunting, the 7 rem mag will give more fps, especially useful with the heavy bullets. the wsm has a short neck and with heavy bullets, less case capacity. go with the 7 rm over the wsm. for that matter go with a 300 rum. The 7mag can head space off the shoulder if you neck size only. I see nothing the 7wsm offers over the 7rm.

LordofWar
May 13, 2009, 05:02 PM
Wht edge would a 7mm WSM have over a 7mm Rem Mag?

5whiskey
May 13, 2009, 08:50 PM
Unless maybe if I see a coyote....

That's what I was getting at. The OP lives in Pakistan. We don't know what nature of "coyotes" he may be going up against. That's why I think we shouldn't judge him for asking a question.

HiBC
May 14, 2009, 10:27 AM
About what may be different in Pakistan..

I did mention that in my first reply on this thread.I understand life is different in other places.

In what I have written,I have referenced what is right for me,without saying what other folks should do.

I can make a case for self restraint ,shooting at game at long range,in terms of education rather than condemnation.

I am taking the OP at face value when he describes the target as a medium game animal.To speculate further would require pondering about who might be in harm's way.
I also take at face value the statement that the fun begins at ranges over 600.Yes,the real challenges of the art of the rifle are out at those ranges.

But,for myself,it is not necessary that the long range target be a living thing that must suffer my errors.Rocks,steel that clanges,will tell me if I shot well,or not.I do not need to see the creature with a destroyed leg in agony for fun.That is what is true for me.You may find your own truth,your own way. No heartburn.

GeauxTide
May 14, 2009, 11:33 AM
The edge of the 7WSM over the 7mmRem is rifle weight with the attendant increase in noise and recoil. If you think Rem ammo is high, WSM will be higher. The two inch decrease in barrel length will also cost you 140fps.

4406v
May 15, 2009, 12:52 PM
The 7mm because that's what I've shot for 20 years and I know my gun.

I personally wouldn't take the 600 yd shot ,for me the hunt is just beginning when the animal is that far away.

Hunley
May 15, 2009, 10:25 PM
The thing I would be looking at given your geographic situation is the availability of ammo and the price thereof. Also, look at your funds. The 7mm Mag is an amazing round, but it ain't exactly cheap to shoot. You'll also need plenty of wide open space to practice with it, as the round is quite loud. But given that you are in Pakistan, there should be plenty of desert available for that. (And I'm jealous of you for that...)

Although the 7mm Mag will have a flatter trajectory, the .308 is capable of what you are describing. It all comes down to knowing your gun and the round you are shooting. Plus, you can probably find military surplus .308 for practicing.

I will say this about the 7mm Rem Mag, though: Make sure you have a platform capable of handling it. A good, heavy wooden stock - or bull barrel if you have a synthetic stock - is a must (if you can't really practice with it...). I have a Ruger M77 MkII with a regular stainless barrel and synthetic stock, and it kicks like a mule. I haven't had the chance to practice with it since it's too loud to shoot extensively on the hunting club (homes nearby) and most indoor ranges won't allow it. Besides, at $2.50 a round, it isn't something I can go and put thousands of rounds through.

James R. Burke
May 18, 2009, 06:49 PM
Just the way the question was asked about 600 yards it would be the 7mm Mag for the obvious reasons. In general I like the .308 better, but for the all around rifle I think the .30-06 is hard to beat in general terms. There are better calibers, and I am sure not everyone would aggree.

LordofWar
May 27, 2009, 04:51 PM
Ammo availability for almost all hunting rounds to include 7mm RM, .279 Win & 30-06 Sprgf. is scare but some dealer do import them on & off. What we usally do is buy as much as we can whenever they are available. They are painfully expensive as compared to the US though $10.625 per bullet was my recent purchase but again shooting is an expensive hobby.
US is a heaven for gun enthusiasts. I really envy my friends in the US when they buy a Glock for $500 bucks which I buy in Pakistan for in excess of $4200 USD. :/

Pakistan is an agrarian economy and is an agriculture intensive country. The only desert that we have is in the far South eastern part of the country which is somewhat a small patch and has become more of a cultural heritage for both India & Pakistan.

I go to our local range in Karachi, Pakistan which has a 300 mtr range with state of the art equipment and electronic sensor targets with an LCD at every station point out your hits and calculating groups.

Practicing in any open area is strictly NOT allowed in Pakistan. For beyond 300mtrs I have a range at my farmhouse

I have a Santa Barbara in .308 and I'm not very fond of it. I usually hunt with & practice with my Blaser R93s.

LordofWar
May 27, 2009, 05:01 PM
HiBC,

Trust me and take this at face value, the only thing different in Pakistan is expensive firearms & ammo.

If not for the Post Cold War produced pain in the rear foriegn fanatics & super power's scape goats, life's GOOOOOOOOOOOOOD.

Again I would thank you for taking me and my thread at face value. The biggest game animal in Pakistan is the Ibex & Markhor where the largest animal is hardly at par with the Whitetail Deer in size so all we have in our part of the world is MEDIUM GAME.

A true marksman is determined by his ability to shoot at targets beyond 500 yards which is when the fun begins. Use aperture sights to add toppings but for hunting we do need a scope which is when things become easier.

Well the 7mm RM does have all the power packed for a humane and clean kill at 600 yards if/when in the right hands.

Moreover, you dont do stupid things when you're paying an offical hunting license fee of $35,000 USD for a single animal.

kiwi56
May 27, 2009, 06:00 PM
Lord of War, Just wondering if reloading equipment is available in your part of the world it could help reduce costs if available there.
If reloading was an option a wildcat cartridge I would consider looking at for 600 yard shots is the 7mm Shooting Times Westerner. In fact that is going to be my next project rifle. That cartridge has the legs on both the 308 and the 7mm Rem Magnum.

ZeroJunk
May 27, 2009, 07:22 PM
offical hunting license fee of $35,000 USD for a single animal.


Wow.

HiBC
May 28, 2009, 02:26 AM
Thank you for your compliments.

I do not know you,I do not know 5whiskey.

And,all of us are somewhere between naive and cynical.The number of times we have been betrayed has something to do with that.

I freely admit I am quite ignorant about life in Pakistan.I only have the propaganda our media serves.

Please appreciate,while Pakistan is home for you,I have the impression,as an American,it may be a potentially dangerous place for me.

Such is the world,today.

I am happy to respect you as another shooter,and respect your questions.

In my opinion,it may not be correct to say 5whiskey is a bigot for anything he wrote.

Two of my brothers have served as US Army Special Forces.One was a medic in Vietnam,the other was an A-Team commander befor he moved up in the SOCOM organization.Either of my brothers could have been in a far away place that might be unsettled at times.

That I gave you my best information indicates I treated you with respect,but I will confess I wonder if I do the right thing sometimes.With no direspect to you,or to Pakistan,I can find my own fear that someone who reads of the fine art of rifle shooting at long range.....might find a brother or a friend and call him " medium game"

It does not imply any disrespect to you as a shooter or a hunter or individual if sometimes I myself must wonder how the knowledge I share might be used.

Now,as I said,I have chosen to take you at face value.I choose to continue.

But,I think maybe 5whiskey is OK