New to Shotguns, seeking opinion on which to buy

[jg0001]

I've been a handgunner for a little while now and would like to expand my collection by adding in a shotgun and rifle. [I'll save the rifle talk for the other forum; thinking 308 Win for that.]

The choices seem overwhelming, so perhaps I should just stick with something middle-of-the-road and commonplace. As for intended use, well, I'm no hunter, so this will be mostly for range use and learning shotgunnery, unless the SHTF takes place.

I'd like it to be the following:
(1) 12 gauge (this is 'the' standard, no?)
(2) semi-auto
(3) generally black or neutral in color (i.e. not camo)
(4) I'm only likely to buy ONE of these anytime in the near future, so spending $700-$1400 is not a problem

Hell, if someone could say, "Hey, get yourself a 12ga Benelli semi, model XXX whatever", at least I'd have a starting point. When I first was looking around for a handgun, someone suggested a Sig P226, and that helped immensely in reducing my initial search (I did buy the Sig in the end... later buying others when I learned more, but never regretting the Sig).

[ar15chase]

If $$$ isnt a ral issue Benelli makes great semi's

[Lee Lapin]

Try before you buy. Ask family, friends, co-workers to let you shoot their guns (you buy the ammo), go to gun clubs or ranges that have rental guns. Handle various makes and models at your local gun stores. Get some trigger time on various makes and models if you can.

Make up your mind based on experience as well as Intarw3bz advice...

lpl (I'm hearing it's hard to find semiauto shotguns in fighting trim these days...)

[Doyle]

I'm a little curious as to the auto-only desire. If you get a chance to borrow a pump, you might just find that it suits your tastes. Pumps are definately easier to take care of (no pistons or O-rings to go bad).

I concure with the Benelli. Very reliable (but not cheap). Since you don't seem to know exactly what you are going to do with it yet, I would recommend one for which various barrels are readily available. A quick barrel swap means one gun can go from HD weapon to trap shooter to goose hunter in minutes.

[jg0001]

I'm trying desparately to narrow the field, hence the limitations I listed.

Which is the more common shell size, 2 3/4" or 3" (does one gun shoot both sizes)? What about length? I find it odd that it makes much difference between 26" and 28", but it seems like every shotgun is offered in those lengths. How does one decide between items which seem not all that different?

In NJ, there are no shops near me that rent guns. Also, I usually shoot at an indoor range and there are few people that I see with shotguns (usually one or two out of 30+ that show up while I'm there). I don't ever intend to hunt with it unless I had to do so to survive. I would like to be proficient in using it and since I can likely only get the wife to permit one, I would like to get something of decent quality.

[LordofWar]

Beretta Teknys Gold Sporting
or
Winchester SX3

Benelli's M3s have this problem cycling lighter loads so I wouldnt advise taking a Beneli to the range.

[hogdogs]

Most any 3 inch chamber will also reliably shoot 2 3/4 inch shells. There may be one or 2 models that do not. You will likely never shoot 3 inch unless hunting. But the ability to shoot them is always a nice additional variety.
Brent

[LordofWar]

I always use 3' Rottweil 36 gr loads on ducks so its more of a neccesity.

I think all Beretta AL391s, Xtrema 2 & Winchester SX3 are multipurpose shotguns that can serve any utility that you intend upon deriving from a Shotgun.

1. Sporting (Skeet/Trap)
2. Hunting
3. SD/HD

They’re pretty reliable with all kinds of ammo.

[Mike Irwin]

I personally REALLY like the Beretta AL391.

I shoot very well with a friend's.

Not to say that I can actually afford one right now...

[LordofWar]

Any AL391 is the best esp with Optima Barrel/Chokes.

[Alamocdc]

My go to hunter is an all steel pump, 12 ga. Win Model 12 is a good start, if you can find one in good shape. Ithica Model 37 is also a good choice. Older Rem Model 870s were steel, but the newer ones had plastic parts in the receiver and my brother had loads of trouble from his.

These pump actions have a strong lock on the chamber and I've never had a problem shooting "heavy" field loads in them. However, dad had a pre-64 Browning semi-auto that we couldn't shoot our reloads in. It just wouldn't cycle right so he switched back to a Win Model 12 and never had a problem. YMMV

[Niner4Tango]

If you want to buy one shotgun that you can adapt to various uses as you grow into the sport you might look at a Remington 1100. This is a pretty pedestrian shotgun, but the list of aftermarket parts is incredible. Barrels and stocks for all kinds of purposes from target, turkey, water fowl...and loads of parts to turn it into a really nice HD gun with mag extensions, pistol grips stocks, 21 inch barrels with sights, accessory rails, etc. etc.

Not elegant like a Benelli, but versatile - it's a thought.....

[LordofWar]

+1 Rem 1100 again is a very good semi auto.

[masterhunter]

11/87

[sholling]

You can buy a used or new-old-stock Benelli M1 Super 90 for $750-1000 on Gunbroker, and get a second barrel for about $300-350. That would give you an ultra reliable, soft recoiling, ultra fast cycling 12ga for both home defense and sporting uses. These are pretty much the gold standard for semiautomatic shoguns and don't care if you feed them 2-3/4 ultra light target loads or 3" magnums. They just work every time you pull the trigger.

A nice bonus of the inertia system is ease of cleaning. breakdown for cleaning takes all of a minute. And because it's an inertia system and not a gas system there is little cleaning that needs to be done.

The new version is the M2 but I'm still most fond of the early H&K marked Benelli M1.

[Brad Clodfelter]

Help is on the way.

You will never need another shotgun if you buy one of these. Notice I didn't say want. :D

Rem 11/87 Super Magnum

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=127216352

[Brad Clodfelter]

Here's a good used 3" model.

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=127591692

[LordofWar]

Benelli Super 90s are prone to malfunction with lighter loads.

[inSight-NEO]

Since you are new to the shotgun world, I would strongly suggest a 12 ga. pump shotgun. Sure, they arent quite as "cool" as the semi-automatics, but they wont require as much maintenance vs. the semi-autos and are generally considered more reliable. Sure, pump shotguns can malfunction, but when compared to semi-auto shotguns, the odds seem to favor the pump when it comes to reliability.

In terms of make/model, I prefer the Mossberg 590 and the Benelli SuperNova Tactical when it comes to less expensive models. If you have the coin, look into the Mossberg 590 A1 or the Remington 870 Police (the only Remington I would ever consider owning). Now, my preferential recommendations are mainly dealing with "home defense" purpose shotguns (matte black finish, smoothbore or possibly IC barrels ranging from 18" to 20" and so forth) as this is usually my main consideration when buying a shotgun. In terms of "hunting specific" shotguns, I couldnt say.

Now, if you insist on the semi-auto shotgun, might I recommend (simply based on preference) the Benelli M4 ($1,500+), M2 (possibly a bit more reliable than the M4, but not quite as cool) or the Mossberg 930 SPX ($600+). As nice (and conveniently priced) as the 930 SPX is, Benelli is generally considered top-tier when it comes to semi-auto shotguns. Keep in mind that semi-auto shotguns, like semi-auto handguns, can be somewhat finicky when it comes to certain loads. The pump shotgun, generally speaking, does not seem to be nearly as encumbered by this affliction.

It all depends on what you are willing to spend and most importantly, which type (pump or semi-auto) and which brand fits your needs best. All "user recommendations" aside, you will find that, as with almost anything, each type/make/model will come with its own set of strengths and weaknesses. Try them all out or at least those you are able to get your hands on. From there, its all up to you.

Good luck!

[earlthegoat2]

ought to consider a 20 gauge. They can do near all the 12 can if you do your part. They have better resale value too.

[sholling]

Benelli Super 90s are prone to malfunction with lighter loads.Who told you that? I've yet to have one malf and all I shot the first 2 years was ultra light target loads.

[LordofWar]

I own a Benelli M3 Super 90.

It's a sucker with light loads.

[Dave McC]

Try some out before shelling out cash.

I'd try.....

Beretta's 391.

Remington's 1100 or their 11-87.

The Browning Gold.

And if your money is strong, some Benellis.

[sholling]

I own a Benelli M3 Super 90.

It's a sucker with light loads.I own the M1 and no such issue although they did recommend a 100rd break in. The M3 may have it's own issues or it may be yours is too tight.

[ATANRA]

1100 over 11/87. Better design less problems in my experience. Berettas are very nice also. No real experience with Bennelli. .

[zippy13]

jg0001

So you can have another avenue to investigate, I'm going to suggest something different. How about a classic? Not your modern mass-produced ho-hum gun, but something that's a genuine shot-gunners shotgun. Of course, I'm thinking of the Winchester Model 12. As many call the pre-'64 Winchester Model 70 the Rifleman's Rifle, the M-12 has been called the Perfect Repeater. Model 12s range from barn beaters to beautiful trap and skeet versions.

Like the pre-'64 Model 70, the Model 12's high production costs placed them outside the competitive market 45 years ago. The rifle was re-engineered to lower costs, but the shotgun was discontinued. But, there have been limited run "resurrections" of the Model 12 by Winchester and Browning since '64. Most of them have been up-graded commemorative editions.

Before you cough-up the cash for some contemporary concoction of plastic and sheet metal, do yourself a favor and take a close look at a nice Model 12 Pigeon Grade. If you plan to have only one shotgun, why not make it something special?

Good luck,
Pete

[BigJimP]

A sig 226 is a step up from most of the DA/SA handguns out there - ( Glock, Springfield, etc ) .... so I understand you want something durable, that will last you a long time and be versatile.

If you want a semi-auto Benelli Super Sport, 12ga, I prefer a 30" but it comes in 28" barrel as well. It cycles quickly, shoots cleanly, easy to breakdown, modular in that you can put on different height comb pads, different butt pads to change length of pull. New it retails around here for about $ 1,850 / its a good all around gun for the money. It comes with 5 extended chokes - so it is ready to go right out of the case.

Gas operated semi-autos aren't bad guns - like Beretta 391, Browning gold, etc - but they shoot dirty, some don't cycle that quickly. Personally, I don't like all the gas in my face / I find myself hesitating on the 2nd shell - waiting for the gun to cycle. The Benelli Super Sport - I can shoot just like my O/U's with no hesitation.

The most versatile O/U's are monte carlo stocks, with adj combs in them - something around 8 to 8 1/2 lbs is about right. A gun that meets that spec is Browning XS Skeet - retailing new for around $ 2,750 / but there are some used ones around. Personally the XS-Skeet offers you a lot of gun for the money / it will come with 2 Skeet, one IC choke - so you will need to add a few chokes for Sporting clays and Trap. I like the Browning Midas grade external chokes ( but Briley etc make good chokes, about $ 50 each ). For a gun that will do every thing I recommend 2 Skeet, 2 IC, 2 Mod, 1 Imp Mod, 1 Full choke - so 8 chokes total.

If I wanted a gun that would shoot three shells - I would go with the Benelli Super Sport. None of the clay target games allow you to load 3 shells - so the O/U's dominate those games / allow you to have 2 different chokes in the barrels / keeps your hulls clean (if you reload ) vs picking them up all over.

Beretta does not make an O/U with a monte carlo comb - in the price range of the Browning XS Skeet ( I think their DT-10 is their only offer - everything else has a drop at the comb / or an angled stock ). Angled stocks are a problem - because if you shoot in a T shirt vs a heavy coat it puts your face at a different spot on the comb / making your point of impact change significantly at 30 or 40 yards. A monte carlo comb - parallel to the rib - is the way to go for 99% of us / and then adj the comb to fit each of us.

There are other options Perazzi, Blaser, etc - but you're into significantly more money ( $ 7,500 plus easily ) unless you find a used one.

[Littlehoov]

I think someone already suggested this, but I would just suggest it again.

Why not get a shotgun that has aftermarket support to get interchangeable barrels?

On the one hand, youd have a very effective SHOTgun that could use bird and buck shot and yes rifled slugs.

BUT, you could also get a rifled barrel for it, and shoot slugs much more effectively, basically turning your shotgun into a short range rifle.

Youd have a shotgun for HD, target, clays, or whatever else. Then with a barrel switch and some nice slugs you have something capable of engaging just about anything on this continent out to 100yds or so, possibly even farther.

[6x6pinz]

27 replies and no one suggested a Saiga 12, what is this world coming to. Here is a shotgun that is excellent for HD but yet can go to the range or field. One can modify the Saiga into what ever they want it to look like or leave it stock. Magazine capacity is from 2 to 20 rounds and will fire 2 3/4 or 3 depending on your need. The AK style action does not get any easier to maintain.
Yes I think benelli's are great guns, a bit overrated but still a great gun. Had to work on three this past duck season from weather related failures, never on my Saiga.
The best advice here is to get as many shotguns in your hands as possible, most likely the same thing you heard when shopping for your first handgun. There is no one shotgun that is great for all or we would all have one.

[zippy13]

6x6pinz
The OP commented that the gun would be used for general target work. Since the Saiga 12 has no rib, :eek: it's as useful at clay targets as a tennis racket is paddling a canoe.

[jg0001]

I really appreciate all the info so far. You guys have given me a lot to think about.

I do want to restate two requirements...

(1) while I could stretch my way up to $2,000, I really don't want to go over that. I think $1500-$1800 is more my goal. I always end up spending a little more than I plan, but I don't want to spend 2x that. Both the Benelli's that fit that price range and the Beretta that have been mentioned repeatedly are interesting.

(2) I don't want to buy something with the intention of having to fiddle with it. While I may be interested in that later, from the start I would like a complete package. I'm not mixing and matching barrels, stocks, etc. I don't know enough to do so and would rather just buy a 'whole' gun in a form that is 90% of what I want. [Again, think Sig P226...]

And a few questions:
(1) I wasn't quite clear on the 'shoot dirty' thing mentioned above and why it applies to the Beretta but not the Benelli. Are they that different internally?

(2) I don't see that the question of barrel length has been addressed... what factors drive a person to go for a 26/28/30 inch barrel and for someone like me who is a relative novice just looking for something to learn and grow on at a range (not in any competition), should I care much?

[BigJimP]

Yes the internals on the Beretta and the Benelli are different.

The Beretta is a "gas operated" gun - where the gas from the combustion of the shell operates the bolt to cycle the gun. A "gas operated gun" tends to get pretty dirty / clog up after 4 - 6 boxes - but it depends on how dirty the shells are, reloads, cheap ammo. Cheap shells like Rio, Estate - are very dirty. Most of the premium shells like Remington STS are a lot cleaner. But if I was competing with a gas operated gun in a tournament - I would clean it after every 100 - 150 shells max - to make sure it was cycling properly - because if it fails, it may be a lost target.

The Benelli is not gas operated - its inertia operated / where the bolt rotates with the inertia. Without making this an engineering lecture - there are only 3 moving parts in a Benelli - the bolt, the inertia spring inside the bolt body and the rotating head on the bolt assembly - and the gas, smoke and any unburnt powder stays in the barrel - vs going thru a gas port into the mechanism.

Inertia guns shoot cleaner because of this - and in my opinion, cycle faster than most gas guns. On the gas guns I've owned and tested - I had to hesitate a fraction of a second while the action cycled to pull the trigger on the 2nd shell. On my Benelli Super Sport - I shoot it the same way I do my over unders - no hesitation on the 2nd shell.

Benelli super sport - has a synthetic stock - and in the stock are chevrons that compress on recoil - making it shoot soft. Gas guns bleed off gas to operate their systems - so it is softer shooting. Benelli calls their system Comfort Tech. A Benelli with a wood stock - will not have the Comfort Tech system - so it will have more recoil than a gas gun. With the Comfort Tech system - I think the Benelli and a gas gun give you about the same recoil.

On a light gun like a semi-auto / most of them are around 7 lbs - so go with a little longer barrel to add a little weight and give you a longer sight plane. A longer sight plane on a light gun - helps with the follow thru a little. On light and shorter guns - many of us have a tendancy to whip them around - rather than swing them fluidly. I also add a little weight to my Benelli super sport - because I like it a little heaver ( weight inside stock / inside foreend ) so it feels better to me / but I'm 6'5" and 290 lbs and I don't like a 7lb gun.

In an O/U I like 30" barrels too - but the overall length of an O/U with 30" barrels is the same as an O/U with 28" barrels. But the reason I like 30" barrels on an O/U is I like that gun at about 8 1/2 lbs. So in a lighter gun, I thinks its an advantage to shoot a little longer barrel - and a little longer gun overall ( so you don't whip it around ). The Benelli Super Sport is so light - that even my grandkids shoot it from 13 - 16 / its cool looking ( carbon fibre and stainless ) - and its light. It will also cycle all loads even down to 7/8 oz ( like a 20ga load ) as long as its at least 1200 fps - which is a pretty light load. The Benelli book says it won't cycle on light loads - but keeping it clean and well lubed ( a little on the wet side ) and mine has been perfect.

[zippy13]

(Seems BigJimP beat me to the post again. So here's a rehash from a slightly different perspective)

The dirty gun question:
The Beretta and Benelli have two different operating systems. You're into handguns, and like everyone, you can appreciate the difference between a pistol and a revolver. But, are you aware of the different operating systems among various auto-loading pistol designs? They all look generally the same on the outside, but function differently inside. The same applies to auto-loading shotguns.

Think of the Benelli inertia system as a organized train wreck, or a cascade of dominoes: When the Benelli is fired, there are internal pieces that transfer the recoil energy from one to another. As these pieces move, the various functions necessary to cycle the gun take place.

Think of the Beretta as being powered by compressed air. Some of the high pressure gas, that's propelling the shot down the barrel, is vented off to provide the energy to recycle the gun. The Beretta is dirtier than the Benelli because the gas used to operate the mechanism contains particulate matter that accumulates. However, a great benefit of the gas system is that it absorbs much of the recoil energy that the Benelli system will deliver to you.

The makers of the Benelli add a lot of extra trick stuff in an attempt to reduce the "kick" to a level even with the Beretta. Of course, the same tricks could be applied to the Beretta to reduce it's recoil even further. To add to the confusion, Beretta (about to celebrate their 500th anniversary) acquired Benelli a few years ago. So the competition between them is not what it once was. Beretta used the old business model of: if you can't beat them, buy 'em.

What it comes down to: the Beretta and Benelli are both good guns; but, the Benelli "shoots cleaner" and costs more. If you conscientiously clean your gun after a weekend's target shooting, the Beretta may be your best bet. If you're an avid hunter, and your guns get cleaned infrequently, then the Benelli may be best for you.

The barrel length question:
A longer barrel does several things...
Minuses: It makes the gun heavier so it's a bigger bother to hump across country all day. It makes the gun easier for an aggressor to grab it.
Pluses: It provides a longer sighting radius, improving target accuracy. Makes the gun heavier so it absorbs more recoil and it swings smoother. And, arguably, it gives a minor improvement to the shot pattern.

The 26-inch skeet barrel is a thing of the past. Over the years, the score cards have shown that the so called fast pointing short barrels aren't as important as the smoother swinging longer ones. Most folks can get along just fine with a 28 or 30-inch barrel for everything. (My friend, BigJimP will recommend the 30" -- but someone smaller than average might prefer a 28.) The exception being long yardage handicap trap where the increased sighting radius of a longer "trap" barrel is required for a winning score.

[BigJimP]

And the Benelli Super Sport - just plain looks cooler ....( at least to my grandkids ) - and it would make a nice gun to go with your Sig ...

Here is my 12ga Super Sport Benelli
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=38389&d=1226958132

A few of my Sig 226's ....
these are all stainless / one in 9mm and one in .40 S&W
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43563&d=1236370874

this is a Sig 226 X-Five race gun in .40 S&W
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43564&d=1236370943

Zippy is right of course / but the 391 isn't as cool.

[hogdogs]

OOOOO AHHHHH... PURDY GUNS!!!!! Okay got my dose of gun **** in... need a cigg now!
Brent

[LordofWar]

From O/Us to Semi autos I'd prefer a Beretta any fine day.

I have Xtreme2, Teknys Gold & Urika 2 Gold and they would just cycle any load flawlessly. I go all crazy at skeet with my semi autos a month or two before the hunting season doing some high volume shooting and during duck hunts. An average day would comprise of 300-400 shells a day and a Beretta hs never failed to cycle flawlessly without even a single malfunction.

They dont get that dirty either. Hardly takes 15 minutes to clean up.

I own a Benelli M3 Super 90 & it sucks with loads upto 32 gms. I was very excited when I got my hands on a Benelli considering its the biggest hassle to import firearms in my country and with hardly less than a 100 Benellis in the whole country but to my disapointment it was a major flop. I called Stoeger in the US and they referred me to their CRM office in Canada and they told me it might require some breakin so there I went all 300 36 gm magnum shells and it still doesnt cycle.

Boo for the Benelli. Thumbs up for the Beretta.

I also own a Winchester SX3 and that again is a wonderful semi auto. Aims naturally and low recoil. Fastest cycling of rounds btw. No wonder they call it the fastest semi auto shotgun.

[American Rifleman]

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but I suggest a pump Remington 870 for s shotgun.

[maestro pistolero]

Benelli Super 90s are prone to malfunction with lighter loads.

My M1 super 90 functions fine with them. I shot up a bunch of reduced recoil slugs that were so light, it took 1/4 to 1/3 of a second for the action to cycle, but they still worked great. It was like bang, cha-chink

However, a great benefit of the gas system is that it absorbs much of the recoil energy that the Benelli system will deliver to you.

But even the Benelli, being an auto loader, shoots a lot softer than ANY pump gun, which with magnum slugs is like Mike Tyson punching you in the shoulder.

[LordofWar]

Pumps I would only recommend for SD/HD.

But with weapons like Beretta and the SX3 you could you some multi-tasking with having to buy different shotguns serving different utilities.

[SmokeyVol]

I would recommend any one the same three shotguns I have:

Winchester Model 12 Pump - No. 3 on the Field & Stream "50 Best Guns Ever Made"

It is well known among the snobbier of shotgun enthusiasts that no repeating shotgun can handle as well as an over/under or a side-by-side. But there is one repeater that points like the Finger of Doom itself, the Model 12 pump. Introduced in 1914, the Model 12 lasted until 1976, when production costs drove it out of the Winchester lineup. It came in every shape and form-"from field models to riot guns to heavy waterfowl models-"and in all gauges, but it was as a competition gun that the Model 12 was perhaps most dominant. For decade after decade, if you did not shoot trap and skeet with a Model 12, you were an odd fellow. The Model 12 seemed to lock on a target and stay there, and you could not wear it out. Serious shooters would put several hundred thousand rounds through their guns, have some minor rebuilding done, and repeat the process. I've handled one Model 12 trap gun that had had a million shells shucked through it, and it was in much better health than its owner. And it shot fast. Well-broken-in Model 12s had a slickety-slack smoothness that let you shoot them as quickly as an auto. Winchester's great exhibition shooter Herb Parsons used to hold five clay targets in his left hand, throw them into the air, and break them all before they hit the ground, pumping his Model 12 faster than the eye could follow. The Model 12 has faded now, overshadowed by more modern guns, but in its time it was the repeater-"indeed, the shotgun-"against which all others were measured.

Remington 1100 Semiauto - No. 4 on the Field & Stream "50 Best Guns Ever Made"

Autoloading shotguns had been around for a long time by 1963, but the new Model 1100 was different. Previous self-loaders were heavy and handled like sledgehammers. If they were recoil operated, they kicked like mules. People tolerated them only because they offered three or more fast shots. The 1100, on the other hand, was sleek, moderate in weight, and handled splendidly. Most important, it had softened recoil. Its gas-operated action spread the rearward thrust of the gun over a long period of time and took the sting out of shooting. Trap and skeet competitors bought 1100s by the carload. New shooters, and people who otherwise would not be shooters, took to the 1100 as the one gun that would not beat the daylights out of them. The 1100 was not perfect. It would jam if you didn't keep its gas system clean, and it wouldn't digest every kind of shell you fed it. Once you really began to pour the rounds through, an 1100 would break, but it was easy to fix. Not a "fine" gun like the Model 12, no marvel of fit and finish, the 1100 made extensive use of stamped parts. But it was, and is, a revolutionary gun.

Reminton 870 Wingmaster Pump - No. 10 on the Field & Stream "50 Best Guns Ever Made"

Think of it as a Winchester Model 12 that is easy to manufacture. The Model 870 made its debut in 1950 as one of the first of Remington's "new generation" of guns that did away with the complex machining of the past. And it may be sacrilege to say so, but the plebian 870 is probably as good a gun as the aristocratic Model 12. It pumps just as fast, points as well, is just as reliable, and is unbelievably long-lived. The late shotgunning great Rudy Etchen put 4 million rounds through his 870 with just some minor parts replacement to keep it going. The 870 is still with us, made in every configuration known to man, and it will probably be around for many years more.

[zippy13]

Happy to see another recommendation for a classic Winchester Model 12.

[BigJimP]

But the model 12 still doesn't have the " cool " factor ..... / not criticizing, just saying ... and I don't get many chances to be " cool " these days, so have to take them where I can .....

[hogdogs]

But is there an ATI folding paratrooper/swat/green beret/navy seal style stock for the model 12:D And the requisite Barret .50 cal brake for the end?;):rolleyes:
Brent

[BigJimP]

Boy - I sure hope not Brent ...... / but there is always "duct tape" ...

[johnwilliamson062]

My advice, and you should listen because I am a government trained chairborn ranger, buy a mossberg 500 and then send it here (http://www.apwcogan.com/) and have it industrial hard chromed. What can this shotgun NOT do? WHat punishment can it not take that another gun could?
Pick up a remington 870 at the store and mess with its ergonomics also, whichever one feels better is the choice, I just prefer the 500.
oops. I read your whole post. Well, if you are buying it for situations which will not require you to shoot more than 250 rounds semi-auto(clay singles you load one at a time), then the 11-87 and hardchrome it.

If you want to shoot it all weekend without pouring remoil in it then go with the Browning A5. My 11-87 gets clogged up after about ten rounds of clays.

I would at least look at the pumps seriously before you buy. Maybe your buddies own pumps and you already have, but if not...

[jg0001]

BigJimP -- wow, that Benelli SuperSport is a real beauty. I think you've made a sale. It's a little on the high end, though. Any idea what price is good on these, relative to MSRP? (I'm used to 10% under MSRP on $1000+ handguns)

[roy reali]

I'd like it to be the following:
(1) 12 gauge (this is 'the' standard, no?)
(2) semi-auto
(3) generally black or neutral in color (i.e. not camo)
(4) I'm only likely to buy ONE of these anytime in the near future, so spending $700-$1400 is not a problem



Some have posted with replies recommending pump shotguns. The OP wants a semi-auto. Maybe us semi-auto types need to start typing a lot slower. I think the pump guys are getting confused. This borders on a childlike obsession.

[zippy13]

jjg001

Judging from members' reports, there are some good deals to be had in today's economy. Ferreting out the best price is just part of the new gun experience. BigJimP (Mr. Benelli) is up to speed on gun prices, hopefully he'll have some good news for you.

I'm sure the other members will agree, now that you've decided on the Super Sport, don't cough any up cash until you've actually fired the Benelli and another gun on your short list. Different gun models have different feels -- just like Fords and Chevys have different ride qualities. It's not a matter of one being better than the other, they're just different. Only you can determine which feels right.

We look forward to reading your review after you've run a few hundred rounds through your new gun.

Good luck and good shooting
Pete

[jg0001]

I should point out, I only buy new guns; so keep that in mind when figuring a price. I'll probably check in with the (only) two gun shops remotely nearby and see what price they come up with. I've just come too close to getting burned by both of them before, so I like to have an idea going in what is respectable.

[jg0001]

FOLLOW-UP QUESTION:
Assume I buy the Benelli Super Sport (not that that exactly matters for the question)... what SHOT/SHELLS would you recommend for:

(1) simple range practice (provide Cabelas or MidwayUSA link if possible so that there's no misunderstanding)

(2) potential home defense

(3) maximum firepower (up to the gun's limits; I usually like to try out a bit of this, even if I don't shoot it regularly -- kind of like my S&W 500; the 350gr stuff kicks plenty, I don't need to shoot 500gr+, but I do like to have some of it)

I'm most interested in #1 above, since that is what I'd be buying in BULK. All the various shot/shell combos are a little overwhelming to a newb. Thanks.

[jg0001]

BigJimP -- any thoughts on Benelli's hyped up new modular shotgun, the "Vinci"?

[BigJimP]

I have not seen the Vinci - so I can't comment - but I think its set up more to compete with their hunting guns.
But I guess I don't see the use of a gun that breaks down modularly as something I would ever need.

Super Sport in my area is selling new for around $ 1,850 ( I think list is around $2,100 ).

My Super Sport will cycle any shell that is at least 1200 fps ( or around 3 dram equivalent) - even down to 7/8 oz of shot. It is chambered for 3" shells.

[zippy13]

(1) simple range practice (provide Cabelas or MidwayUSA link if possible so that there's no misunderstanding)

I suggest you start out with standard target grade (Remington STSs or Winchester AAs) trap and skeet loads. Stay away from off brands and promotional loads. For basic trap and skeet the only difference will be the shot size. After you gain some experience, then you can experiment with light and heavy loads. The boxes should say:
Trap, 3 dram equivalent 1-1/8 oz of # 7-1/2 shot, or
Skeet, 3 dram equivalent 1-1/8 oz of # 9 shot
Both of these loads deliver at 1,200 fps.

Sorry...
When I checked Cabela's site search for "skeet ammunition" and "trap ammunition" there were no hits for standard Winchester and Remington target ammo. The closest they came was some AA hulls. If you don't reload, save your hulls, they're worth almost a dime each!
Lately, I've noticed the MidwayUSA site has been slowing down. Today, it was overwhelmed and my search simply returned server too busy.

For home defense and maximum loads, any recommendation will do nothing more than generate controversy. There are typically several active threads devoted to this subject.

[jg0001]

For home defense and maximum loads, any recommendation will do nothing more than generate controversy. There are typically several active threads devoted to this subject.

That's okay... I'm not sure a 4 foot+ gun is too practical for my home setup anyway. I have a nice selection of handguns (with lasergrips) to pick from for that task anyway.

[jg0001]

Trap, 3 dram equivalent 1-1/8 oz of # 7-1/2 shot, or
Skeet, 3 dram equivalent 1-1/8 oz of # 9 shot
Both of these loads deliver at 1,200 fps.

So, it would seem the shells listed in the middle of the pack off of this link:
http://tinyurl.com/CabelasWinSuperXHG
...would meet that requirement, no?

I am correct in assuming that the Benelli SuperSport can shoot either 2 3/4 or 3" shells just fine? [Esp. since it seems like most of the common shells are 2 3/4"]

[zippy13]

NO! Those are hunting loads w/ 3-1/4 drams eq, they are hotter than target loads.

YES! The SuperSport does 2-3/4 and 3-inch shells.

[zippy13]

That's okay... I'm not sure a 4 foot+ gun is too practical for my home setup anyway. I have a nice selection of handguns (with lasergrips) to pick from for that task anyway.

I don't think you'll get any arguments about selecting a handgun that you're proficient with over a new shotgun for HD.

[oneounceload]

You can also buy Win and Rem target loads at wally world, or any of the usual big box sporting goods stores

Personally, I also like Remington's Gun Club loads in 2-3/4 dram, even softer shooting than the 3 DE shells and will break any target out there, as will the wally world Federal packs, Rio's, Estates, Kemen, B&P, Nobel, Fiocchi, etc., etc., etc......

[hogdogs]

Zippy, did you forget that you have to aim a hand gun but can just shoot one round from a shotgun and clear the whole room...:rolleyes:
No aim needed... the pellets leave the barrel and look both ways and head right to every "Bravo Golf" in the room...:D
Brent

[jmr40]

If you don't mind going up to $1400 the Beretta is the best choice for a gas gun. Remington is better than many claim but it is not quite up to the Beretta, although it is cheaper. Have heard good things about Browning and Winchester, but have no personal experience.

In that price range I prefer the Inertia action Benelli. Both Beretta and Benelli will be equally reliable. The Benelli will require a little less cleaning and may function a little better when dirty. The Beretta is heavier and being gas operated will recoil less.

For me if I were primarily hunting with it I wouold prefer the Benelli. For a gun to shoot a lot of clays I would prefer the lighter recoiling Beretta.

[BigJimP]

I double checked my info from this weekend - the Benelli Super Sport's suggested retail is $ 1979 - and I saw one locally this weekend for $ 1,850.

The Super Sport comes with 5 extended chokes ( so that's about $ 250 extra ) if you want to add them to another gun that doesn't have them.

The Super Sport is light - but since it only comes one way, with the Comfort Tech system in it, I still says its as soft a shooting gun as a gas operated Beretta ( and it shoots cleaner, and it cycles faster ).

The converstation you and my friends Zippy and HogDogs were having about defense ... I will rely on a handgun as well, if in the very small chance, something happens in my home ( and I shoot some Practical Pistol competitions, and practice weekly with my handguns ....). Scattergun Bob mentioned the other day - when clearing a house - the shotguns will typically stay in the cruiser - and I think his point should still be well taken. I'm not going to rely on a gun like the SuperSport for defense - vs a 1911 in .45 acp ...... but when I leave the bedroom areas - and get to my safe - grabbing a shotgun is still a pretty good idea ( 4 feet long or not ) just in case ....as a backup.

If you really want a "Fighting gun" - the Benelli M-4 or the M-2 Tactical are better options. But most of us don't intend to "Fight" with a shotgun / vs just using them as a Defensive option if we have to. I live in a fairly densly populated city / police are quick and responsive ....if I lived out in the woods or a rural area where a sheriff might need 30 min to get to me, my approach might be different.

[jg0001]

NO! Those are hunting loads w/ 3-1/4 drams eq, they are hotter than target loads.

Zippy... is there REALLY much difference between 3 and 3 1/4 drams? The 3 1/4 otherwise meet your list of specifications and they just BARELY make it over the 1200 FPS minimum you stated (1,255 FPS according to Cabelas) while the TARGET loads I see on Cabelas site are slower, some of which just barely getting to 1200 FPS.

... this is why I could really use an actual product ID or link to be sure we're talking about the same shotshells ... if you can find something, ANYTHING, that matches your specifications (from a place I can buy it online), please "link" me up ...

Perhaps an item from this page (below) instead?
http://tinyurl.com/CabelasWinTarget

[jg0001]

jmr40, in case you missed it, at this point I'm leaning towards the Benelli SuperSport, despite it being nearly $2K.

[jmr40]

I should have read the whole thread. A little more than I would spend, but a great gun I'm sure you will like.

[oneounceload]

s there REALLY much difference between 3 and 3 1/4 drams?

Short answer - yes.

You should go to a local store and buy a box of 2-3/4, 3, and 3-1/4 dram shells and try them out. You'll notice more recoil from the faster shells, more "thump" to your shoulder, but they won't break the targets any better.....in fact, if you're shooting a lot, by the end, you may actually start to miss more targets due to fatigue

[BigJimP]

In your Cabella's link

the 2nd load on the Winchester link ( 3 dram, 1 1/8oz, 8's ) is a good versatile shell. There was a similar shell in the Remington Gun club portion of the link as well ( the 5th one down ) 3 dram, 1 1/8 oz, 8's .

Here is a link to a RIO load - thats pretty inexpensive

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=70521

They are out of stock at this site - but a gun club, or sporting goods store in your area may have some RIO's as well. There are a lot of RIO shells that will cycle in the Super Sport just fine ( 3 Dram ) just means you need to look for a box that says 3 Dram or 1200 fps or faster .... Rio makes 1 oz, 1 1/16 oz , 1 1/8oz shells ( which means the volume of shot in the shell is higher ) - but you need to look at velocity or the Dram equivalent to estimate the velocity. The qty of shot is different.

As long as the box says 3 Dram equivalent or 1200 fps you are fine. Then look at the quantity of shot for 1 oz / if you can't find 1 oz then look for 1 1/16 oz - if you can't find 1 1/16 oz then look for 1 1/8oz . Then look at the size of the shot 9's - if you can't find 9's look for 8's - if you can't find 8's then look for 7 1/2's.

As the Dram equivalent goes over 3 Dram - it means the velocity is increasing - so there will be more recoil. Anything over 3 Dram is overkill. In general - you want to stay with 9's or 8's in terms of shot size. 8's are the best overall shell for sporting clays ( and good for Skeet and Trap ). 9's are a little small for Trap ( but ok, out at 16 yard line ).

As the pellet size gets bigger - it retains more energy - so it will break targets further out. The bigger the pellet - the less of them it will take to break a clay target. At 25 yards it will take 3 -4 9's to break a target, 2-3 8's, 1 - 2 7 1/2's but as you go beyond 30 yards 9's lose their effectiveness / 31 - 40 yards 8's are better / beyond 40 yards use 7 1/2's.

I reload - so I can shoot whatever I want. I choose to minimize recoil ( a little ) but I like a little faster shell - so my primary load is 1 oz of 8's at around 1225 fps ( or a little over 3 Dram ). Its not a load you will find commercially easily. If I buy throw away shells - I usally buy the Rio in whatever I can find with 8's ( as long as they are at least 1200 fps, I don't worry about it ).

On a sporting clays course ( 100 targets ) - I will carry

5 boxes of 1 oz 8's ( for most presentations )
1 box of 1 oz 9's ( if I have a close target )
1 box of 1 1/8 oz 7 1/2's ( for those long crossers )


Not to get into your head too much / but it makes a difference if you can see the belly of a target ( its easier to break ) - than if it stay under heavy power and on edge the whole time you can see it. Rabbit targets are a little harder - so I will usually put in 7 1/2's on rabbits ....

I shoot 9's or 8's for Skeet all the time in a 12ga or a 20ga. I shoot 9's in a 28ga or .410 ( because as you go down in gague, you have less pellets in the shell ( a standard 20ga has 7/8 oz , a 28ga 3/4 oz, a .410 1/2 oz .....). Beyond that - its all pesonal preference.

[jg0001]

Great info... I really appreciate all this stuff. It has greatly eased my mind.

(1) On another topic, specific to the SuperSport since BigJimP has one, what CHOKE (of the ones that come with it; the lettering scheme means nothing to me (yet)) would you recommend for an INDOOR range, shooting paper at 25 yards max? I assume I don't want a wide spread that may hit the target holder (metal clips on a wire near the ceiling) which could cause a nasty ricochet. I know not to try to go for head shots on human shaped targets, but what else should I know?

(2) At the range (indoor or otherwise), is it inconsiderate not to use a shell catcher? At the indoor range, there are lane dividers, so I imagine I may just have to be most worried about the shell hitting ME (after hitting the divider). Thoughts? [No one cares about semi-auto pistol casings flying around, but I'm given to understand that shot shells are another matter.]

[BigJimP]

SuperSport comes with 5 chokes - Cyclinder, Improved Cyclinder, Modified, Improved Modified, Full.

I would think a Cyclinder choke is plenty for anything under 25 yards / that's the choke I shoot at Skeet with the Super Sport.

A shell catcher is an issue when you shoot Trap because there will be shooters standing about 8 feet to the right of you - and you don't want your hulls bouncing off of them or their guns .... It is not a factor on Skeet or Sporting Clays ( but its polite to police up your hulls after the round / or at the end of the day ).

Whether you need it at an indoor range or not - is up to your range management. In general, I take a dim view of anyone shooting a shotgun at an indoor pistol range - the muzzle blast is pretty tough on anyone around you trying to shoot. I would suggest you move away from everyone if you can.

The Super Sport is a sporting, clay target gun primarily .... and you should take it to a pattern board with Target loads ( like 1 oz of 9's ) ..... I don't see any reason to be shooting it indoors / but that is up to you.

[zippy13]

Zippy... is there REALLY much difference between 3 and 3 1/4 drams?
Short answer - yes.

You should go to a local store and buy a box of 2-3/4, 3, and 3-1/4 dram shells and try them out. You'll notice more recoil from the faster shells, more "thump" to your shoulder, but they won't break the targets any better.....in fact, if you're shooting a lot, by the end, you may actually start to miss more targets due to fatigue

oneounceload beat me to the post, and I concur 100%.

Yikes, I'm just now recovering from sticker shock after a visit to Winchester's official site. I couldn't believe their MSRPs on shot shells. Luckily, they are heavily discounted.

Here are some 2 3/4" 12-ga target shell links:
Winchester AA 3 dram Trap or* Skeet WAAM12 (http://www.gamaliel.com/cart/product.php?productid=4564&cat=743&page=1)
Winchester AA 2 3/4 dram Trap or* Skeet WAA12 (http://www.gamaliel.com/cart/product.php?productid=4565&cat=743&page=1)
Remington STS 3 dram Trap RSTS12LH (http://www.gamaliel.com/cart/product.php?productid=4588&cat=742&page=1)
Remington STS 3 dram Skeet RSTS12H (http://www.gamaliel.com/cart/product.php?productid=4582&cat=742&page=1)
Remington STS 2 3/4 dram Trap or* Skeet RSTS12L (http://www.gamaliel.com/cart/product.php?productid=4589&cat=742&page=1)
*Specify #7 1/2 shot for Trap or #9 for Skeet

[oneounceload]

Thanks for the compliment Zippy

It just drives me nuts to see folks who are new go for that "bigger, faster, badder is better" attitude without realizing the unnecessary punishment to their shoulder, (which they WILL notice when they're older), nor realizing that like good BBQ, low and slow is the way to go......

OP- it takes approx 3 pellets to break a bird; the difference in lead at 45 yards between 1150, 1200, 1250, and 1300fps is negligible....think of it this way - would you rather be boxing with a 5 year old hitting you 100 times, or (insert your favorite heavyweight champion) doing the same, if the end result for your end is the same?

With today's shells, and reloading equipment, you can shoot 12 gauge loads that are like a 28 gauge, in a heavy gun that will reduce both felt AND actual recoil.........Getting the snot beat out of you by that is not macho or cool.

Of course, if the gun doesn't fit, it won't matter that much.....

Good luck in your quest

[jg0001]

In general, I take a dim view of anyone shooting a shotgun at an indoor pistol range - the muzzle blast is pretty tough on anyone around you trying to shoot.

Much like my S&W500, I expect to shoot a little bit here and there (indoors), but not enough to bludgeon those around me with the noise for very long. This is consistent with others that shoot similar weapons -- i.e. they probably get off 10-15 shots then switch back to pistols. There are some visits (like this past weekend) when the range is virtually empty, which would be more ideal for a higher shell count.

I'm trying to find an outdoor range and will probably get more into that once I pick up a rifle & scope combo (that's my next project; well after this one).

[zippy13]

oneounceload

You're welcome -- GMTA!:)
I'm no fan of recoil. As a 4-gun skeet shooter, the majority of my practice is with the .410. Most competitors will agree, skeet tournaments are won and lost with the little gun. More than once I've started a tournament with a 100-straight in the morning's 12 or 20-ga event only to have the wheels come off in the afternoon's .410 event (and, I'm far from alone in this).
It takes continual practice to maintain the finesse required to work the .410, and switching back to 12-ga can be a rude awakening. I load the 12-ga at 1150 fps, and in Doubles I'll usually drop to 1 or 7/8-oz for the first shot.
To mitigate recoil and try to make the different gauges seem as close as possible, I shot a large frame O/U with ported barrels, a Joe Shiozaki air cushion stock, Kick-eez pad and a Kolar barrel weight (when the tubes are out). Also, my 12-ga reload recipes are strongly influenced by pressure data. I'm a big fan of Green Dot in Federal paper hulls.

[jg0001]

:)

I just placed an order for the Benelli SuperSport, item #10635 (30" barrel, Carbon Fiber Finish). Price was $1799 (brand new). Probably take a week or so for it to come in.

Now... what ELSE should I pick up as a new shotgun shooter (other than shells)? Do I need a shoulder pad for this thing? Assume I'd be shooting light loads (as directed, above) and remember that this particular Benelli has their ComforTech thing going on.

BigJimP -- is it worthwhile to order up the extra combs and/or recoil pads (the ones specific to Benelli offered as accessories)? [Actually, it would appear that the gun comes standard with the THICKEST recoil pad, so I'll leave that as is... perhaps I'll just order up the other two combs for the hell of it.]

[hogdogs]

While ya'll are talkin' about guns valued way above my entire arsenal including ammo and most of my electronics combined... Things I try to share with new shooters is not brand or gun specific. First is shoot a ton of light loads to learn to point. Also include alot of clays of course. A cheap thrower and a few cases of birds shot over an open field amongst buddies is far cheaper than the gun club... I liken it to good ol' boys street racin' before movin' to the track.
to beat the inherent flinch factor you may find a shoulder pad very helpful even if the gun a soft shooter. Shooting hot loads like buckshot mixed with the light loads can point out the flinch but don't let it make it worse.
For folks just getting into hunting or HD pump guns I always suggest shooting with a buddy and take turns loading each others mag full so you never know if it is a hot load or light load next. To really see where you stand also have the buddy load varying amounts of shots... Nuttin' points out flinch like dropping the hammer on an empty chamber:o:D
But for the shooting sports I am far from a source of advise:rolleyes:
Brent

[zippy13]

Now... what ELSE should I pick up as a new shotgun shooter (other than shells)?
Let's see, I'm probably forgetting some stuff, but you can start with:

Shooting glasses
Ear protection
Vest (additional recoil pad) or belt shell pouch
Cleaning gear
Shell catcher
Assembly lube and wipe-down cloth to be kept in the case.
Choke tube holder (if not provided w/ gun)
Small kit (to fit in case) for any adjustment and take-down tools specific to the gun not provided.
Range bag for shells, hulls and accouterments.
A class in basic shot-gunning will help any newbie avoid many of the common mistakes.
Basic instruction class/pamphlets/videos for the various sports you're going to give a try.
Name tags for the case and gun.
A small diary / log book. Do yourself a favor and record anything pertinent you learn as you get into shot gunning and this gun. It'll help you avoid repeating mistakes in the future.

[BigJimP]

That's a good price - congratulations.

Zippy covered a list well ...

I find the higher comb pad fits most people better than the stock one / but there is only one optional comb pad I believe. Nothing wrong with waiting / Mann and sons in midwest has them in stock usually - takes only 4 or 5 days to get them. Most dealers don't stock them.

I would not order the other butt pads - especially if you don't know what your length of pull is at this point.

[LanceOregon]

There is a lot of biased and downright distorted and untrue info in this thread about gas operated shotguns.

Comments that they don't cycle as fast as Benelli shotguns, and that shooters have to actually wait for follow up shots are utter and complete hogwash. And yes, while they do require more cleaning maintenance, to claim that they have to be cleaned after only 100 to 150 shots is equally ludicrous and outlandish.

Gas operated shotguns clearly have the edge in better absorbing recoil. And if one looks at the top target shooters in the nation that are shooting semiautos, you see a lot more Berettas than you do Benellis. People would not be using Berettas and Browning Gold shotguns in competition so much if they were not utterly reliable guns.

And the impression left here about the street price of Berettas is also very flawed. To say that one has to spend $1,400 to get a Beretta is not at all true either.

I really shop around whenever I buy something, and I've been able to find great deals on all of my Beretta semiautos with a little effort. Looking at the original post in this thread and the specs that were requested, the standard blued Beretta 391 Urika II with a plain black synthetic stock would do all that was requested very very, nicely, and at a small fraction of the price of the Benelli SuperSport. In fact, to be more specific, it can actually be obtained for $1,100 less.

I've bought some of my new Berettas from Tanner's Sport Center. I've yet to find any dealer with better prices on new Berettas than some of the special sale deals that he manages to get from the factory.

Here is a photo of Ray Tanner at his store:

http://www.tannerssportcenter.com/images/DSC_0201.jpg

And here is a link to his website:

http://www.tannerssportcenter.com/


He also puts a lot of his special sales up for auction on gunbroker.com Here are some examples:

He has the latest second generation Beretta 391 Urika II with a plain black synthetic stock that I mentioned earlier on sale for only $699:

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=128567810

He has the very TOP, TOP of the line Beretta 391 competition shotgun, the Teknys Gold, for only $1,349:

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=128506290

Want to get a fantastic hunting shotgun that can also shoot 3.5 inch magnum shells, well, he has the newest Beretta 391 Extrema 2 in plain black synthetic stock for only $899:

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=128518223


These guns are all far better values than a Benelli SuperSport at $1,800, in my opinion.

Beretta autoloaders are fabulous guns, and they are all that I now shoot myself, and I could easily buy any shotgun that I could want.

Here are my two 391's that I mainly now shoot now for all of my hunting and target shooting needs. The top gun is a 391 Extrema 2, and the lower gun is a 391 Gold Edition Sporting Clays model:

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/two.jpg

And here are a couple of older Beretta Deluxe edition 390 shotguns that I added to my collection as collectibles. I've only shot the lower one, but it shoots just as great as my newer 391's

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/beretta_390s_email1.jpg

Both guns are so beautiful, though, that I really cannot justify using them at all.

.

[BigJimP]

We obviously disagree Lance - and while you're entitled to your opinion on the gas guns .... let's be honest here - there are very few competitive shooters, let alone national caliber shooters, shooting semi-autos in Skeet, Trap or Sporting Clays.

O/U's clearly dominate Skeet, Trap and Sporting Clays both locally, regionally and nationally for a lot of reasons.

[oneounceload]

Actually Big Jim - the current national sporting clays champ, Anthony Matarese Jr., shoots a Beretta gas gun

I have shot many of both over the years, and could never tell any difference on quick follow-up shots. I know the lighter Benelli kicked more with the same load......Lighter guns will kick more, plain and simple fact of physics.....while certain actions may reduce FELT recoil, actual recoil will still what it is.....using a heavier gun with light loads reduces recoil, but using light loads gives SOME semis snits of fit in the operating arena.

[BigJimP]

I forgot about A. Matarese Jr .... you're right OneOunce and he is certainly a talented shooter - but I don't recall any of the other pros shooting them .... although one of the better shooters in my area was using a Beretta gas gun a few years ago - he has switched to a Krieghoff O/U. So I'll still stand by my statement of "only a few".

I understand the issue on lighter guns - you're right about the physics - but what we're taking about is Felt Recoil - since its the only one that really matters. I still maintain the Benelli Super Sport, with the Comfort Tech which is the only way it comes, shoots as soft as any of the gas guns ( although I don't have a way to measure it ). The Benelli's with wood stocks - that cannot have the comfort tech system in them - will definitely give you more recoil than the gas guns, in my view.

I've shot many of the gas guns too - and I still say there is a hesitation on most gas guns firing the 2nd shell with light or heavy loads. However, I think the gas guns are getting better - as they continue to refine them vs the older 1100's, the older Beretta 390's, etc. - and I see the ads where Winchester and others claim they now have the fastest cycling gun ...

I agree, the cycling issue on semi-autos with light loads is a concern - my Super Sport will not cycle any load under 1200 fps - but it has no problem cycling 7/8 oz loads at 1200 fps regardless of what the Benelli manual says. I don't know how light a load the Beretta gas guns will cycle reliably - but I see guys having issues with light loads on Beretta 390's, 391's, Browning gold's etc. - but it may be because they aren't keeping them clean and well lubed. I keep my Benelli a little on the wet side / and I think it makes a difference in reliability - but it makes no sense to me to shoot a dirty gun - gas or inertia. If I am shooting a semi-auto in competition - and there is a flight in the morning and another in the afternoon - I will clean that gun, between flights ( especially if its a gas gun ). But I do the same thing with my semi-auto handguns too - like 1911's.

There are strong opinions on all sides of this issue on inertia vs gas guns - but I have never said the Beretta's or any other gas-operated were bad guns / but they are not, in my opinion, the best choice in the market today - despite the premium price for a Benelli.

While a semi-auto in not my primary gun in any gague - I've been lucky, and this point in my life, I can afford to buy and shoot any gun I want - if, in my opinion, there was a better semi-auto shotgun than the Super Sport I would say so and I would buy it and be shooting it. And I will tell you this, I will continue to keep an open mind on the gas guns - things do change.

[oneounceload]

Sorry Jim - I'll disagree on "felt" recoil being the only one that matters.......IIRC, you're about my age.....recoil effect is cumlative, and while felt maybe a factor....ACTUAL, over a LOOOOOOOONG time adds up.......HEAVY gun, LIGHT load equals LOW recoil.......adding a gas gun to the equation also helps to make it "feel" lighter,

example - my 28 is a gas gun....it is s o f t..........but shooting the same load in a heavier gun, though not gas, is really less....

guess we'll agree to disagree - I know you like your benelli guns, but they arte lighter than Beretta gas guns, meaning they WILL recoil more, and being ID, they will even feel more as well.........

But I DO appreciate your knowledge and input........

[LanceOregon]

We obviously disagree Lance - and while you're entitled to your opinion on the gas guns


Actually, I was simply stating that you were saying negative things about gas operated shotguns that are completely untrue and false, and are only supported by your own personal bias against them, and not any actual facts.

Feel free to prefer to shoot a Benelli. I have no problem at all in folks liking and shooting those shotguns. Just don't unfairly disparage gas operated shotguns with comments that are simply not true, or are greatly exaggerated.

.

[BigJimP]

I agree OneOunce - and I appreciate your input as well. Our different points of view are good for the discussion and I understand your perspective. We've both made our decisions on the guns we shoot - and our discussion of the issues with various guns hopefully will help somebody else make up their mind or maybe ask more questions before they buy. Either way, its all good.

Lance - you're etitled to your opinion - but don't tell me my opinions are the same as making blatant untrue or exaggerated statements or clouding the facts. The issues you are alluding to seem to be my opinions on the speed of a gas gun cycling vs the Benelli super sport, how often you have to clean a gas gun and something about price that got obscured somewhere... I gave you my opinions on cycle speed and reliability - nothing more / and you can no more prove your point of view than I can. I assume we both know neither one of us can necessarily believe what the marketing depts of the gun mfg's say as fact.

I will continue to share my opinion on any guns - as I see it. I assume you will do the same - but there is no reason for you and I to go after eachother on a pesonal level / I'm way past the point where I have to prove how high up the tree I can pee - and I'd appreciate the same courtesy from you. Disagree if you want - but don't tell me my opinions are falsehoods.

[jg0001]

FYI: I just today FINALLY received in my Benelli SuperSport (30" barrel). The dealer actually priced it a bit under quote at $1750, so I was quite happy. I had to find the "extra high" comb myself, though -- I was a little surprised to see that it cost $95 by itself.

Anyway, I didn't do much other than put it together then take it apart so far. I'll let my bro-in-law take me to an outdoor range for a proper lesson with it someday soon (perhaps vs some skeet).

[oneounceload]

Have fun with it jg - (yet another shotgun addict in the making!):D

[zippy13]

Congratulations! Keep us posted on your progress. Next, you'll be wanting info on shot shell reloading. :)