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Stuohn
April 26, 2009, 10:07 PM
A hypothetical senario: If you were at the gun range/sportmens club and you witnessed two officers attempting to arrest someone. Ok now that person starts shooting and both officers go down. What do you do?

For the sake of this senario we will say this took place 10yds from you.

Please keep in mind that this is all the information you have. You know nothing about any crimes the person may or may not have committed.

Tex S
April 26, 2009, 11:32 PM
I wonder if the cops would throw away my outstanding parking tickets if I hosed the guy for them?:D

I would take cover. If innocent bystanders started going down, I would step in.

chemgirlie
April 26, 2009, 11:44 PM
Armchair quarterbacking is easy. In that kind of a situation you have to consider that if you shoot the BG the first thing the cops see when when they drive up is you holding your rifle and 3 dead bodies.

PoorSoulInJersey
April 26, 2009, 11:53 PM
I'd stay out of it.

You don't know what's going on. Maybe he's Dirty Harry and the evil crooked cops just came for him.

ChicagoTex
April 27, 2009, 12:26 AM
Maybe he's Dirty Harry and the evil crooked cops just came for him.

That's the most insane postulation I've ever heard. If I'm at a gun range or anywhere else and I see somebody take down two uniformed officers, it is readily apparent to me that: 1. this guy is very much a violent criminal and 2. my life is very much in danger (if he just shot two UOs, what exactly is going to prevent him from shooting me?).

I'd try to drop him in a heartbeat.

Keltyke
April 27, 2009, 06:00 AM
An active shooter within 30 feet is an imminent threat to my life. Enough said.

Tru Trak
April 27, 2009, 06:47 AM
In my opinion hypothetical situations are why we carry and practice in the first place. The scenario described could easily become reality in a heartbeat. My thoughts are I take two seconds to see if he turns the gun on himself and does the right thing for taking two lives in such a manner, and if he doesn't, hopefully I could show him the way. Afterwords I again hope with a cool head I call 911 and aid the fallen officers. Either way, your life as you know it will never be the same.

Al Norris
April 27, 2009, 07:30 AM
This one belongs up in the Tactics Forum.

Gbro
April 27, 2009, 08:16 AM
Come now, I think you are tripping a little when you imagine 2 Leo's approaching someone on a firing line. If that were nessesary you would have sensed something before their approach. Like you are down already and their is no other alternative but to intervene.
So I would look to poor jersey's assessment, because something is smelly here.

hogdogs
April 27, 2009, 08:38 AM
Gbro, Actually this thread is directly related to a case occurring saturday at my local 5 stand, sporting clays, pistol and rifle range.
http://www.shoalriver.com/
When 2 officers were sent there as a domestic violence suspect was found there. They were both mowed down with rifle fire and died.
http://www.pnj.com/article/20090425/NEWS01/90425003

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=7430214
Nothin' fishy in this case.
As for me I would aid anyone being fired upon. LEO are usually in the right so I shoot for their attacker.
Brent

Brian Pfleuger
April 27, 2009, 09:10 AM
They tried to arrest a violent offender at a time and place that they KNEW he was armed? That seems not smart.

hogdogs
April 27, 2009, 09:32 AM
pizza, It would seem not so smart to some but the LEO's are doing a job. Firefighters going in a burning building seems "not so smart" to many as well.
In this case the suspect was known to be armed and had previous DV charges among others. The threat to the general public trumped allowing the LEO's to wait for a safer time to apprehend him I am guessing. Florida is a state that strips gun rights for DV conviction.
Brent

hogdogs
April 27, 2009, 09:39 AM
In this case the following article goes into better detail about the individual and his tendencies that likely dictated the way LEO's handled this case.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gt3N6I1HRjHJ7_SJK4SMwsRNzVcgD97QEI400
He was volatile at minimum and possibly mentally unstable at worst...
Brent

Brian Pfleuger
April 27, 2009, 10:17 AM
Well, obviously I wasn't there but it seems to me that the guy was no more a threat to the general public at that moment than he was the day before, or would have been the day after. Fireman generally go into burning buildings when they have some general idea of the danger involved, and they tend not to go, or be called out, when it gets too bad to be in there.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that there were any number of better times and places to confront this guy.


As to the OP:

I'd shoot the guy if I was there. I don't know how you could not. He is clearly and obviously a real and present danger. He's not even a threat, the threat has already become action. If he turned and ran I'd shoot him in the back. It's one of the very few situations wherein there are no rules.

KingEdward
April 27, 2009, 10:42 AM
If I am anywhere and see two LEOs get shot, I will try to do two things)

1 - get info on who shot them, description, tag of vehicle, etc.

2 - help the LEOs who are injured. whether that is from my phone, their phone/radio, or some other way.

I probably will not shoot (or try to shoot) the BG unless it's a situation where
he is just releasing rounds into crowds or coming towards me shooting or aiming.

I would think that most anyone who shoots two cops is probably running and I wouldn't chase but I'd try to get what info I could.

GHF
April 27, 2009, 11:03 AM
Given that I am in Florida (and this happened in Florida for those in the 33 states that have receprocity), I would drop the shooter immediately, based on the following law in Florida:

776.031 Use of force in defense of others.--...... However, the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person does not have a duty to retreat if the person is in a place where he or she has a right to be.

Shooting a cop is a forcible felony, and you - being a witness to a capital crime, are in danger as soon as the shooter realizes you are there.

Drop the shooter as quickly as you can.

treg
April 27, 2009, 11:36 AM
Unless you are intimately familiar with the situation you don't KNOW who the BG / GG are. Just because someone has a uniform on doesn't mean they are GG. Just because shooter doesn't have a uniform on doesn't make him the BG.

CYA and be a good witness.

David Armstrong
April 27, 2009, 12:58 PM
As a retired LEO, let me commend and suggest all read the post he (King Edward) made. Unless the BG is presenting some kind of further immediate threat, leave him alone. Get help for the downed officers, be a good witness.

publius
April 27, 2009, 01:20 PM
In almost every situation involving the police I would stay out of it. But... both cops are down, there are no other cops to help, I have to assume the b/g is going to shoot me next so I am going to take him out.

Ian0351
April 27, 2009, 01:25 PM
Shooting a cop is a forcible felony, and you - being a witness to a capital crime, are in danger as soon as the shooter realizes you are there.
This is the case in Washington also, and If I wast at the range, had a weapon, and felt threatened (yes to all 3 in the case put forward by HogDogs) I would certainly fire at the offender.

As to why the cops chose this venue to apprehend the guy: maybe they felt (or were given orders to the intent) that any rational suspect surrounded by armed citizens would be less likely to use his own weapon, especially if said suspect is known to always carry a gun. As has been mentioned, a mentally ill offender certainly ups the ante.

Regardless, it's always a shame when hardworking civil servants don't come home at the end of the day... I feel very sorry for two families.

Brian Pfleuger
April 27, 2009, 01:29 PM
Unless you are intimately familiar with the situation you don't KNOW who the BG / GG are. Just because someone has a uniform on doesn't mean they are GG. Just because shooter doesn't have a uniform on doesn't make him the BG.


So these 2 guys drive up in a marked patrol car, in broad day-light, in a public place, in full police uniforms and attempt to arrest someone 30 feet from you and your not "intimately familiar" with the situation or confident that the 2 are LEOs?

After the guy shoots them and leaves I guess you'd better not render assistance either, those guys on the ground could be dangerous criminals. I mean, maybe the guy driving away in the truck is a cop and his radio was hit in the exchange. He might be just going to get help.:barf:

Rich Miranda
April 27, 2009, 01:37 PM
If you disagree with me, criticize all you want.

A person who has just shot two cops just yards from me is an imminent danger to my life, as far as I'm concerned. I pull my weapon and, as calmly as I can, put as many rounds into him as I can.

I'd have one advantage: If I'm quick enough, he wouldn't be expecting fire from someone else yet.

Assuming I'm alive, when the cops come to investigate, I explain in simple terms what happened, and let them do what they will (arrest me, etc.). Then I make a phone call and get lawyered up.

When all is said and done, other witnesses and ballistics will confirm that I didn't kill the cops. I'm not even worried about that.

Bottom line for me is that I feel obligated to mount an immediate defense. The rest will sort itself out.

LaBulldog
April 27, 2009, 01:38 PM
An active shooter within 30 feet is an imminent threat to my life. Enough said.
One more thing, shoot the bad guy.
Then it would be wise to kick any weapons within reach of the bad guy out of his reach, call 911 explain what happened, who you are and wait for the police.

Kyo
April 27, 2009, 01:52 PM
Not to sound like a smart ass, but why would you try to detain someone at a pistol/rifle range? The perfect example of why not to was posted when that guy shot the two officers at the range. I just don't agree with the logic there. Personally I would just wait till he's done shooting, and starts going back to the building doors. It is really sad.
I would turn on my cell phone video recorder just in case I need it later, and be on guard, IE, GTFO

ChicagoTex
April 27, 2009, 01:55 PM
When all is said and done, other witnesses and ballistics will confirm that I didn't kill the cops. I'm not even worried about that.

You're absolutely correct in that this evidence WILL exonerate you.

Unfortunately, you're also absolutely correct in that you will almost certainly be arrested until that evidence exonerates you.

Even so, you still gotta do what you gotta do. And covering your ears and pretending the guy who just murdered two cops in front of you isn't a threat to yourself isn't a viable option.

In short: I agree.

Mr. James
April 27, 2009, 02:09 PM
What a horrible story. If the subject was, in fact, merely at that range to shoot clays or targets, as opposed to culling the herd, then I really cannot comprehend why the officers would choose to confront him then and there. If the subject's immediate arrest was that urgent a goal, would it not make sense to at least wait for the man to finish his range session and pack up his weapons? Something isn't quite making sense, and I suspect it might be as simple as missing information on the circumstances.

To the original post, I will shoot the subject until either (a) he is no longer a threat to the downed officers, other range patrons, or me; or (b) he takes me out first.

St. Michael the Archangel, patron saint of police officers, pray for them.

David Armstrong
April 27, 2009, 02:16 PM
I'm going to present this from a different perspective. First, the guy who just shot the cops probably isn't much of a threat to you, if any. He wasn't a threat to you before, and he more than likely just wants to get away from there. By engaging him you may get yourself and others killed. I notice that everyone here has assumed they will instantly kill the BG, he will not get to shoot back, etc. If he shoots back and a hostage/stand off situation begins, it is going to delay medical assistance getting to the officers that were just shot. Odds are the officers are still alive, and for me that is the most important thing at this point, getting help for the injured officers.

Brian Pfleuger
April 27, 2009, 02:26 PM
David,

You and I generally agree, in principle, on these issues... but not this time. I can't believe that a guy who just shot 2 cops is going to let me just stand there and watch. He obviously knows I'm there, he's not going to want witnesses.

I'm not assuming that he won't shoot back, or that I'll even win, it's just that I think there are risks worth taking and this is one of them. If he wins then he leaves anyway, if he loses then I'm still there to help the cops. The rest of the good guys would already be on their way, I'd have called 911 as soon as the shooting started, probably as soon as the confrontation started. If I'm at the range then I've got several hundred rounds and probably several guns with me. It won't become a hostage situation. He either wins by killing me, dies or escapes.

hogdogs
April 27, 2009, 02:34 PM
In this case the BG fired with a previously concealed firearm after being tazed in the parking lot. Not on the firing line (no pun intended). He immediately jumped in his truck and headed out. Given the chance I would have still went off on him even if all I had was 7 1/2 in my pump gun. Come on big boy, get out and play cowboys and idiots with me or just have more identifiable damage to the truck... Then I would turn and try to render first aid if there were room for me as the range was pretty busy on such a nice saturday mid afternoon.
Brent

markj
April 27, 2009, 02:43 PM
The Daily News reported that Cartwright had been arrested in November on a charge of domestic battery against his wife, and that the charge was still pending.

Iowa is trying to get a law passed that if you are arrested for DV they confiscate all your weapons, if not convicted you will get them back, if convicted they keep them.

In this situation with the BG shooting 2 cops and leaving I would try to aid the LEOs as best I could. Let the BG run, they will catch him soon, just as they did in real life.

Was Rambo on TV lately or something?

Brian Pfleuger
April 27, 2009, 02:47 PM
Was Rambo on TV lately or something?

Coming to the assistance of those who need it is not always "Rambo".

There are actual situations wherein a person might actually help another person and in so doing use deadly force. Sure, there are "vigilante" types and plenty of people who've played to much Counter Strike but simply saying that you'd shoot a guy that just shot 2 cops in front of you is hardly "Rambo".

David Armstrong
April 27, 2009, 02:51 PM
You and I generally agree, in principle, on these issues... but not this time. I can't believe that a guy who just shot 2 cops is going to let me just stand there and watch. He obviously knows I'm there, he's not going to want witnesses.
He's at a gun range/sportsmens club. There are multiple witnesses, more than likely. Most folks that shoot cops do so to avoid the cops taking them to jail, and generally they want to get away from the area as quickly as possible. It is doubtful he cares much about you being a witness.
It won't become a hostage situation. He either wins by killing me, dies or escapes.
That's an assumption you can't make. It's a shooting range. Most ranges I've been at provide a fair amount of cover. You start shooting at him, he starts shooting back at you, it is easily a hostage/barricaded suspect situation. So while the friendly LEOS, you, and the BG all swap bullets at each other, the nice guys on the ambulance have to sit back and wait for it all to end. And during all this the injured officers are busy bleeding out.

Brian Pfleuger
April 27, 2009, 03:06 PM
He's at a gun range/sportsmens club. There are multiple witnesses, more than likely.

I suppose that we're both making assumptions on that one. Most ranges in my area, 90% of the time I'm alone. I was assuming that I'm alone.

Now, if I'm not alone, well, I guess I have to think about that. There very well may be others who would also engage, giving us a clear advantage. There are certainly others who will make sure 911 is called. I don't know, right now I'm thinking that not being alone might make me MORE likely to try to stop the guy.

If it's outdoors then it would be awfully hard for anybody to continue the fight when the reinforcements arrive, not that I would imagine that the fight could go on that long, at least at the ranges I frequent. There might be plenty of concealment, but there's virtually no cover. Somebody is going down pretty quick, I would guess. For instance, the biggest range in this area amounts to a main building, which is a good 75 yards across open ground from the line, and the "shooting house" which is a plywood box with one side and the front open and some benches inside.

This happened in the parking lot apparently. That being the case, it's unlikely that most anyone (at our local ranges) would even know it went down until the guy was long gone. They'd have to hear the shots and wonder why people were shooting in the parking lot and go investigate.


Of course, all of this is really the problem with these questions. There are always literally thousands of little details that we all make assumptions about and all those assumptions are different in each of our minds. None of us can believe that anyone else with a brain can see it differently that we do, failing to realize that they are simply operating on a different sets of assumptions.

Gbro
April 27, 2009, 03:13 PM
I have to stand in great disbelief that the apprehension of this man was done according to any guidelines. I believe the Intel on this subject must have been disregarded.
This case could have gone south at any location due to the concealed weapon and his occupation skills. The only factor the range might have played was the psychological aspect of separating him for the weapons that were in view.
However,
There are way to many apprehensions made in the wrong places, take the Waco Texas fiasco, the Ruby Ridge fiasco, There are too many times that a little patience would be appropriate.

The two deputies found Cartwright at the shooting range and began trying to arrest him shortly before 1 p.m., but they reported that he was refusing to cooperate with their attempts to handcuff him.



The Daily News reported that Cartwright had been arrested in November on a charge of domestic battery against his wife, and that the charge was still pending. The paper said he had worked as a bouncer at a Fort Walton Beach bar.

Dubs
April 27, 2009, 03:13 PM
Weird scenario, but consider this:

If you gunned down a man who just shot two cops, do you really think the police would want to arrest you, much less testify against you? They could be upset that you made his death a little too quick...

(operating off the assumption the shot police didn't die... if they did, evidence would provide quick enough)

KingEdward
April 27, 2009, 03:27 PM
most of us would be lucky to repeat with accuracy what we saw and if the BG flees, all the accurate pertinent info 5 min later to an LEO. In the OP, I was more motivated to help the LEOs and others jumped on stopping the BG. Pretty understandable.

I've had the witness experience twice in the last year and once I did pretty well. The other time was after a nearby home invasion and my recall and details were more general than I would have hoped.

When one starts asking things like, "What color was his shirt?" Dark green or light green? Was he wearing jeans or slacks, sneakers or boots, did he have a beard? What type of vehicle did he leave in? What color, what direction did he drive away in? Did he have any unique identification marks, tatoo, etc.?

Change seeing someone fleeing a crime with being in a shootout with someone and we should all hope to be remotely right with 1/2 of what we say or remember.

Some parents could not tell an LEO right now what color clothes and what shoes / jewelry their kids left the house in this morning. Mine left with a burgandy short sleeve shirt and faded blue jeans and a green wrist band and white and red sneakers. Can't remember if her hair was up in pony tail or down. Think it was down but not 100% Shame on me.

hogdogs
April 27, 2009, 03:37 PM
The range of note is fully open air. The shooting occurred in the parking lot quite a few yards from hot firing lines. The chance a line shooter would have had time to hear the shots and mentally determine a shoot out was happening and respond was not to high. Pretty low but a few of the shooters on one end of the place may have been able to respond. My level of accuracy is far below Tom Knapp's but I would have done my best if possible.
Brent

David Armstrong
April 27, 2009, 03:38 PM
I suppose that we're both making assumptions on that one. Most ranges in my area, 90% of the time I'm alone. I was assuming that I'm alone.

Agreed, my assumption was that if you are there, he was there, the cops were there, it was probable that others were there, but that is an assumption.
There might be plenty of concealment, but there's virtually no cover.
There are at least three cars there, which can provide a fair amount of cover. Many ranges have concrete benches, there are full trash cans, etc.
Of course, all of this is really the problem with these questions. There are always literally thousands of little details that we all make assumptions about and all those assumptions are different in each of our minds.
Exactly, and a good catch on your part. Although I will point out that if what you are describing passes as a gun range and sportsman's club in your area, you need to upgrade some!:D

SPUSCG
April 27, 2009, 03:52 PM
There are people saying they would not react if murder was commit that close to them?

Hard to believe, seeing the bad guy could probably kill me without aiming at that range, and you can get some good press for gun owners as "gun owner helps police officers"

Stevie-Ray
April 27, 2009, 06:17 PM
Bottom line for me is that I feel obligated to mount an immediate defense. The rest will sort itself out.A bit to think about as far as small discrepancies in range design, population, cover areas, etc., (seems all of ours are quite different) but I agree in general with theotherTexasRich's post as far as how I feel.

Nnobby45
April 27, 2009, 06:34 PM
Please keep in mind that this is all the information you have. You know nothing about any crimes the person may or may not have committed.

Oh, is that all the information I have?! LOL

Well, you'd actually know he just committed two murders (or attempted murders) before your eyes and you'd know that you're a witness. You'd also know that the would be murderer knows everyone is armed. While you're deciding what to do, he's already shown that he's willing to act quickly and decisively.

Trying to decide what one would do makes for amusing reading, because it isn't possible to know how we'd react. If I were a betting sorta guy, I'd bet on the outcome being settled in favor of he who doesn't dither--what ever action he may choose. If you're holding a loaded skeet gun at 10 yds, why not settle it in your favor?

That might be better than news headlines saying "Two Officers shot at skeet range while shooters stand there and watch the killer drive away."

Of course, in Hollywood, you'd yell "Freeze" while you pointed guns at each other and said "put the gun down"--"no, you put your gun down".:D

GHF
April 27, 2009, 06:49 PM
There can be NO hesitation as soon as the opportunity/shot is cleared tactically after the Bright Line (see my earlier post on Florida law) has been and remains crossed. As John Bernard Books - John Wayne's character in his last movie The Shootist stated - You Must Be WILLING.

"It isn't always being fast or even accurate that counts, it's being willing. I found out early that most men, regardless of cause or need, aren't willing. They blink an eye or draw a breath before they pull a trigger. I won't."

You can not be looking for wiggle room or a gray area here. The threat exists, and needs to be stopped. Looking for a Third Middle Compromise Solution leads to hesitation, which will lead to you not dealing with your responsibilities in a timely manner. It is you - not the person or persons presenting the threat - that you are responsible for.

Remember, the first shot you make should be the first indication to the shooter that they have an altered situation. In this case, the shooter had been concentrating on the now-shot LEO's, so by firing you are an unexpected problem from an unknown location.

Tucker 1371
April 27, 2009, 07:07 PM
I say if you are in a position to prevent one or both the LEO's being killed then you should absolutely engage the shooter. More than likely by the time your brain has registered the threat and asessed the situation that will not be possible. In this case I think the best course of action would be to have your self and your weapon in a position in which you can engage in a quarter second or less should the shooter begin to turn your or any one else's way. If he leaves immediately as he did in this situation then let him do so and make your best effort to tend to the wounded officers.

Rich Miranda
April 27, 2009, 07:25 PM
In this situation with the BG shooting 2 cops and leaving I would try to aid the LEOs as best I could. Let the BG run, they will catch him soon, just as they did in real life.

Was Rambo on TV lately or something?

The OP didn't say ask what we would have done in the same exact situation as recently occurred in real life. He used the phrase "hypothetical senario[sic]."

When I imagined this hypothetical scenario, I imagined him standing over the two officers and then looking up at me, realizing that I'm a witness.

I have taken security officer training many moons ago (though I never did the job). What I was taught is that if the guy shows that he is willing to blow people away for no good reason, then go ahead and take him out.

My question to those who wouldn't shoot in the OP's hypothetical scenario: what happens if he turns the gun on you?

As for me, he is a murderer, cold and callous, and I have a legitimate reason to believe he may kill me next. So I shoot.

armsmaster270
April 27, 2009, 07:25 PM
I would dump him in a heartbeat then try to aid the officers and get EMT's

Jim March
April 27, 2009, 07:29 PM
There needs to be a whole new chapter in the cop manual put in, with just one sentence in it: DO NOT CONFRONT A NUTCASE AT A SHOOTING RANGE.

:rolleyes:

Brian Pfleuger
April 27, 2009, 07:32 PM
Although I will point out that if what you are describing passes as a gun range and sportsman's club in your area, you need to upgrade some!

You have no idea.... that's the classiest joint around.:eek::D There are a few more, some even have trap and skeet ranges but that's about as good as it gets.

ramp_tech
April 27, 2009, 07:34 PM
As much as I'd like to help, unless I was instructed by the LEOs involved in the scenario, I will most likely stay out of it.

There is just too great a liability legally to volunteer in such situation (too many darn lawyers like to sue), however, I would help to retreat the injured officers if possible. (without encountering the BG)

Nevertheless, if the dude starting to shoot at me...that's another story.

5whiskey
April 27, 2009, 07:51 PM
I read all of the first page of responses, and a couple in the second. Forgive me if I repeat a point that has already been made.

"all that is required for evil to succed is for good men to stand idly by and do nothing"

I'm sure almost everyone here is familiar with that quote. With that quote, I don't think there's any state in the union that would actually convict someone because he engaged a man that just iced two cops. Where I'm from they'd call you a hero. In Cali you would be exonerated but lectured about vigilantism. The bottom line? If I see that, I shoot until bad guy doesn't move. I remove weapon from bad guy and detain him with handcuffs from LEO. Order someone to call 911, and then triage (with help from others) LEOs and bad guy in an effort to save their lives.

I understand ROEs and our duty as armed citizens. We are not LEOs. I know this. It's not our job to go out and seek crimes to stop. I don't suggest that we all walk around like a bunch of cowboys. I refuse, however, to stand idly by and watch a heinous crime take place. ESPECIALLY letting an armed man who just used lethal force on two LEOs get away to potentially harm someone else.

Say what you want. In certain liberal courts this may be viewed as "not wrong but not the best judgement", but anyone with half a brain should be able to look at this situation and do what needs to be done if they are confident in their ability to do it. We don't need to be so paralyzed by legal concerns that we're effectively castrated.




And for the record, I think showing up at a live fire range to arrest a man is absolutely rediculous. Let's see, where is the absolute greatest chance of encountering a man when he is not only armed, but already has his weapon at the ready?

SwampYankee
April 27, 2009, 08:04 PM
I've been thinking about this scenario all day.

I think that I would be in such complete shock, I would have no idea what to do. I simply would not believe what I had just seen. The following would pop into my head: "Is this a movie no one told me was filming"? "Is this a practical joke"? "Am I high off my ass right now"?

I figure if the guy started heading towards me with his gun drawn I would empty my magazine into him, but I have to say, the shock of the situation would be considerable. I don't usually observe cops being gunned down in front of me.

Maybe if I lived on the Mexican border things would be a little different...

GHF
April 27, 2009, 08:34 PM
There is just too great a liability to volunteer in such situation, however, I would help to retreat the injured officers if possible. (without encountering the BG)

the Florida Law reads as follows -

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.--

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term "criminal prosecution" includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney's fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

If you have this legal condition, you have no problems in the situation being discussed.

Dingoboyx
April 27, 2009, 08:54 PM
Bugga the consequences, I think I would be going for him first, His vehicle second (tires and gas tank to stuff up his getaway), be on the phone to 911 & trying to be the best witness I could, then try to assist the downed LE's.

I am not sure in which order, or what could be done in the short time (and what is acheiveable due to circumstances), but I would do my best.

I think I would feel worse not trying anything and just hiding.... not a hero, don't want to be....

Would be so many decisions to make in an unbelievably short thime :eek:

Condolences to the LEO's families & loved ones

Pakfront1940
April 27, 2009, 09:15 PM
Reading this made me go check my rangebag and check the status of my first-aid kit, and when I get to work tomorrow I am going to take a refresher on SABC (Self Aid Buddy Care) and I need to replace my outdated Quik-Clot with the new stuff. http://www.quikclot.com/ I would like to think I would have taken at least a couple pot shots at him.

David Armstrong
April 27, 2009, 10:24 PM
My question to those who wouldn't shoot in the OP's hypothetical scenario: what happens if he turns the gun on you?
Then you try to shoot him, of course. That is very different than shooting him because he MIGHT do something to you, you now have a direct threat to your well being.

EricReynolds
April 27, 2009, 10:48 PM
Here's something to think of. Different areas of the country have completely different ideas of armed citizens. I think if I were to find myself in this situation, local police would not treat me like a hero but rather charge me with something. Some law enforcement really do not appreciate any help. Knowing that, I'd be hesitant to react. In all honesty, I'd likely kill the bad guy regardless.

cubsin2079
April 27, 2009, 10:58 PM
When I took my CHL class the sheriffs deputy teaching it gave an explaination of why he is a CHL instructor. On a normal afternoon a deputy saw a car run a red light pulled it car over. There were four guys in the car and when the cop got out of his squad car the men got out and opened fire on him. He was immediatly hit in his strong hand and could not return fire and was rolling around on the ground while being shot at. A CHL holder pulled over and returned fire at the BGs. I cant recall if he accually hit his target(s) but that cop is alive today and those guys are in jail. Not saying to do this but Id think if you saw something like that go down you better be ready to make a decision quikly. This is true it happened in Houston. The CHL guy got the 100 club award that year.

Stuohn
April 27, 2009, 11:03 PM
I agree with Swamp Yankee. My first answer to what I would do was that I would shoot but, now that I have thought about it for awhile. I will amend it. I hope that I would have enough snap to get over the intial disbelief and shock of what I witnessed to make at least a half intelligent decision based on the specific events. I will also add that I do not think I could ever argue my right to conceal carry if I stood by and did nothing.


When I first read the story posted by hogdogs in the general discussion. It caught me by suprise. I think back to all the times I have considered what-if this and what-if that. This scenario has never crossed my mind before. I mean I remember all the times I have been to the range and while saftey is my main focus the range is a place I go to relax.

5whiskey
April 27, 2009, 11:07 PM
They may charge you with something, but I highly doubt it would ever stick. And regardless, the last thing on anyones mind at that point should be "I wonder if I'm gonna get in trouble for stopping a cop killer". Like I said, we all need to (and I think everyone here DOES) understand that we aren't cowboys. We're not here to act like LEOs. We need to know the ROEs. And we NEED to not be so concerned over litigation that we are too frozen to act on such scenario where trouble may find us even though we're not looking for it.

I reiterate. I would engage bad guy until it is clear that he is no longer a threat, then detain him, then begin first aid. If the situation ever comes up and I go to jail for it, then I will spend my time in jail with a clean conscience.

Dingoboyx
April 28, 2009, 02:50 AM
But if one LEO was gunned down, then an armed citizen shot/killed/disabled the killer before he got to shoot the second LEO, I'm sure the second LEO, his wife and kids would have been VERY grateful.....

instead of devistated :(

David Armstrong
April 28, 2009, 09:41 AM
I reiterate. I would engage bad guy until it is clear that he is no longer a threat, then detain him, then begin first aid.
And that is why I suggest letting the BG go. Nothing against the poster directly, you just put it into the shortest sentence<G>! Engage BG until clear, then detain him. Takes some time there. Might take a lot of time. In fact, it has a fairly high potential of turning into hours due to hostage/barricaded suspect, etc. During all that time two officers are down, shot, needing medical attention. Those officers are the main concern to me (after making sure I don't join them), not the BG. We can go get the BG any time. Dpending on the extent of the injury, those officers might be on a very short clock.

Brian Pfleuger
April 28, 2009, 09:53 AM
David,

Would it change your reaction if it was clear that the officers were beyond saving?

SquidWarrior
April 28, 2009, 09:54 AM
When it comes to situations like this, there are four simple words to remember.

Totality of the Circumstances.

Keep those words in mind, and in any situation they will guide you to do the right thing.

5whiskey
April 28, 2009, 10:29 AM
[QUOTE]And that is why I suggest letting the BG go. Nothing against the poster directly, you just put it into the shortest sentence<G>! Engage BG until clear, then detain him. Takes some time there. Might take a lot of time. In fact, it has a fairly high potential of turning into hours due to hostage/barricaded suspect, etc. During all that time two officers are down, shot, needing medical attention. Those officers are the main concern to me (after making sure I don't join them), not the BG. We can go get the BG any time. Dpending on the extent of the injury, those officers might be on a very short clock.[QUOTE]

Well, yeah you bring up a good point. I was going off of the base assumption that this whole deal takes place right in front of my eyes, I engage until dufass stops moving, take his weapon, cuff him with the cops' cuffs, and administer first aid as needed.

Obviously the priority is for the wounded LEOs over trying to catch the criminal if he was wounded and ran away. You have to make judgment calls, and my judgment wouldn't tell me to ignore the wounded LEOs to get in a high speed chase with the criminal. I MAY would follow to the parking lot to get license plates, but rest assured my attention would turn to first aid very quickly.

mrray13
April 28, 2009, 10:39 AM
as a LEO, i would hope that my fellow citizens would indeed come to my aid if i were to fall. both in armed defense and aid.


IMHO, he just shot two uniformed officers, he is an active shooter, and all lives are now at risk. plain and simple.


reminds me of the youtube vid where the cop pulls over a pursuit, sprays the driver, turns his back and gets shot 5 times. the driver then runs over the officer and attempts to do it a second time. a former marine tells his son to call 911, grabs the fallen officer's sidearm and quickly puts two into the chest of the driver. BG dies.cop dies. ex-marine is somewhat of a hero...though later he himself gets into some kind of trouble over something else.

SPUSCG
April 28, 2009, 10:43 AM
I dont see how so many people would allow the bad guy to walk off when the shooting was 10 YARDS away.

Reasons Id shoot:

Protect officers, maybe their wounded and he is about to try and hit them while there down

Protect myself, shooter is CLOSE

Protect othjer civilians, how do you know that he wont murder a family to steal their car and escape.

David Armstrong
April 28, 2009, 10:48 AM
Would it change your reaction if it was clear that the officers were beyond saving?
Given modern medicine I'm not sure how it would be clear, but yes, if their heads were chopped off or something like that where it is obvious there is no hope, then saving their lives as the main priority would be sort of silly. I still don't see getting into a gunfight with the BG as a particularly good response unless you are threatened.

David Armstrong
April 28, 2009, 10:54 AM
I engage until dufass stops moving, take his weapon, cuff him with the cops' cuffs, and administer first aid as needed.
But there is the problem. Your plan is based on everything going right, and that rarely happens. Your scenario is you shoot, BG quits being a problem. What happens when you shoot and BG becomes MORE of a problem? I'd rather go with the "let the BG go away" plan first. If that doesn't work, then we can try the "shoot at BG" plan.

Glenn E. Meyer
April 28, 2009, 10:59 AM
Occam's Razor:

1. If he is a direct threat to you, do what it takes to reduce that threat based on these options.
a. Shoot him and KNOW what you are doing
or
b. Disengage safely

2. If he is a direct threat to others, still shooting - or threatening to:
a. Shoot him and KNOW what you are doing
or
b. Disengage safely if your own safety is a priority

3. If he is fleeing:
a. Let him
b. Call for help
c. Render aid to those who need it

Be aware that there no gurantee that you will win the fight. Tyler Courthose and Tacom Mall incidents should be required reading for those who postulate they will immediately hit the target and win the fight.

David Armstrong
April 28, 2009, 11:01 AM
Protect officers, maybe their wounded and he is about to try and hit them while there down
IF he does that, then the scenario changes quite a bit. But how about we wait to see if that is something he wants to try? If he starts to do that, we can then engage, right?
Protect myself, shooter is CLOSE
Is he any closer than he was before the shooting? And if he is that close, why do you want to give him any added incentive to shoot you? If he is threatening you that is one thing, but if he is not why draw attention to yourself?
Protect othjer civilians, how do you know that he wont murder a family to steal their car and escape.
How do you know he won't go to prison and be instrumental in finding a cure for cancer? How do you know that if you engage he won't kill more people than if you let him go? How do you know ..................??

David Armstrong
April 28, 2009, 11:04 AM
Be aware that there no gurantee that you will win the fight. Tyler Courthose and Tacom Mall incidents should be required reading for those who postulate they will immediately hit the target and win the fight.

Sounds like somebody just attended a good conference where they learned all sorts of interesting tactical stuff. Gonna fill us in on it??

Rich Miranda
April 28, 2009, 12:51 PM
Then you try to shoot him, of course.

Hahaha! I actually laughed out loud. I guess if you ask a silly question.....Next time I'll try to use some gray matter while I type.

Seriously, though, this was an imagined scenario. We're all going to imagine it a little differently. Add to that the fact that we are all different people with different personalities, attitudes, and priorities, and our answers are going to be all over the place.

I think the important thing is that we (at least mentally) prepare for many different possible situations. We don't really "know" how we'll react, but if we walk through similar situations we'll be better prepared if they ever actually happen.

markj
April 28, 2009, 01:21 PM
My question to those who wouldn't shoot in the OP's hypothetical scenario: what happens if he turns the gun on you?


At this point I would defend myself as I have been trained to do so. Until that time my thoughts would be on trying to save the 2 that were shot and prevent anyone else from getting shot by a stray bullet.

I gotta ask, any of you ever been in a fire fight? or been shot? or seen someone die? If not, then how can you say how you would react in that situation? Do you have military or LEO training? I am not talking about security guard stuff. Real guns are not the same as game playing on the TV.

Thinking with a clear head is number one in any situation.

SPUSCG
April 28, 2009, 02:43 PM
I pla on becoming a police officer within the next couple years so Im hoping there are a lot of people who would come to an LEOs aid.

KingEdward
April 28, 2009, 03:08 PM
Here is why I would not shoot:

1) I would be trying to determine what is happening as to be able to answer later (to help Cops find the criminal) i.e. clothes, vehicle make, etc. probably from the farthest "safe" distance possible.

2) I would want the BG to flee so we can help the cops ASAP.

3) basic rule of SD - if I am not being threatened or if there is not opportunity,ability,jeopardy, fear for life, etc.

4) Am I so skilled that I know location/status of all bystanders, is there an accomplice somewhere watching me? etc.

Here is why I may decide to try and shoot the BG to stop him:

1) he becomes a threat to me.

2) he starts looking for others/shooting others.

3) he executes one of the downed officers


Most of my logic is based on me being what I am. I'm not a cop, I'm not an expert marksman, I'm not required to jump into the situation with a weapon.

Yes, I understand being of assistance and "doing the right thing".

I would try to give aid to / save the cops. That is number 1 for me. Number 1a is relaying good communication/info about the BG so he is caught.

Somewhere in there is getting home without going to the hospital first.

SPUSCG
April 28, 2009, 03:17 PM
Hypothetical....two of your buddies just goit shot by a bad guy. How would you react?

Changes things a bit.

I personally would stop a dangerous criminal from continuing their crime if I had the power to do so.

KingEdward
April 28, 2009, 03:28 PM
2 of my buddies just got shot by BG, how would I react?

If I am next to my buddies when they are shot, then I am drawing and firing.

if I am at my car and they are 30 feet trailing behind, it is as follows...


Here is why I would not shoot:

1) I would be trying to determine what is happening as to be able to answer later (to help Cops find the criminal) i.e. clothes, vehicle make, etc. probably from the farthest "safe" distance possible.

2) I would want the BG to flee so we can help my friends.

3) basic rule of SD - if I am not being threatened or if there is not opportunity,ability,jeopardy, fear for life, etc.

4) Am I so skilled that I know location/status of all bystanders, is there an accomplice somewhere watching me? etc.

Here is why I may decide to try and shoot the BG to stop him:

1) he becomes a threat to me.

2) he starts looking for others/shooting others.

3) he executes one of my buddies


Most of my logic is based on me being what I am. I'm not a cop, I'm not an expert marksman, I'm not required to jump into the situation with a weapon.

Yes, I understand being of assistance and "doing the right thing".

I would try to give aid to / save my friends. That is number 1 for me. Number 1a is relaying good communication/info about the BG so he is caught.

Somewhere in there is getting home without going to the hospital first.

Hammerhead_6814
April 28, 2009, 03:28 PM
If the police went to a gun range to arrest someone they would probably bring more than enough firepower and officers.

Assuming this unlikely scenario DID occur, I'd wait to see what he did immediantly after the officers went down. If he runs, I'm not going to try and confront someone who just downed two officers on my own. If he keeps shooting, then I'll step in. Of course I'd be dialing 911 the second he started shooting in the first place.

SPUSCG
April 28, 2009, 04:09 PM
Im not an expert marksman but at 10 yards i could hit him point shooting.

David Armstrong
April 28, 2009, 04:29 PM
Im not an expert marksman but at 10 yards i could hit him point shooting.
Could you do it under stress, with your heart racing and your blood pressure shooting throgh the roof, with him shooting at you while he is moving? If you can hit him, better plan on him also being able to hit you.

Rich Miranda
April 28, 2009, 05:38 PM
I gotta ask, any of you ever been in a fire fight? or been shot? or seen someone die? If not, then how can you say how you would react in that situation? Do you have military or LEO training? I am not talking about security guard stuff. Real guns are not the same as game playing on the TV.

No, no, no, and another no.

If you read my posts you'll see that I agree that one can never really "know" how they'll act or react in any given situation.

As I stated before, in the situation that I imagine in my head, I feel that I'm very much in danger, so I try to gain the upper hand in said situation.

A couple of points:

- The last time I checked, I didn't need military or LEO training in order to defend myself.

- As a person who respects all honorable professions, I feel that your security officer comment is degrading to that profession. There are some very well trained and skilled armed guards out there.

As I stated before, we'll all act differently. I may get dead but so may you. Whatever you do, don't congratulate yourself too much. Or berate yourself either. Your choices are half chance, so are everyone else's.

landcruzr
April 28, 2009, 08:48 PM
I have been there when a partner was shot and killed......
I have heard the distinctive sound of bullets whizzing by me.......
I have put pressure on the trigger waiting for pin to strike primer-only to have the deserving action stop before death was delt
I have been trained-extensively- in comparison to most-
I can shoot, better than most, but not as good as some......
I'm not trying to sound cocky, arrogant or pompus, I chose this life on my own based on my core values and morals and I will SURVIVE, and if two LEO's are gunned down in front of me, their adversary has just entered into a no holds barred gunfight that I will enter into, with all my training and experience-
I am also a realist and understand that Lady Luck is sure to show her head during this ordeal, I just pray that she is on my side....

There is no right or wrong answer- you do what you can do, do it well, and live with the decisions you make

May all LEO's who lost their lives rest in peace, may their families eventually find some level of comfort, and may all their brothers end their tour of duty safetly......
NEVER FORGET

EricReynolds
April 28, 2009, 11:07 PM
I have to agree with Theothertexasrich here. Markj, that security guard remark was uncalled for. I come from an extensive military background and currently work security for a city school district. Saying "not security guard stuff" sounds kind of like you're calling me a joke. Also, if it was 2 of my buddies, it was certainly be a different story. I'd likely have some idea of what was going on.

stilettosixshooter
April 28, 2009, 11:50 PM
Belated comment...

Tyler Courthouse and Tacom Mall incidents should be required reading for those who postulate they will immediately hit the target and win the fight.

The CC licensed civilian in my hometown of Tyler did hit the target - at least twice. Unfortunately, the MAK-90-wielding BG (who had just shot his ex-wife and son on the courthouse steps) was also sporting kevlar, and the civilian's shots were ineffective. Very sad case, very brave civilian (who snuck up to shoot the BG in the courthouse square while the BG was engaged in a shooting match with local police). The civilian was killed by the BG, and the BG was taken out by police after a car chase.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_courthouse_shooting
(wiki, but reads accurately, based on my memory of hearing about the event)

Can't speak for Tacom Mall - hopefully at close range it would be more apparent whether someone is wearing bulletproof gear. In any event, I suspect the most effective strategy in a life-or-death situation is to go for a headshot - and shoot to win. The consequences of a miss are deadly.

Texsun
April 28, 2009, 11:55 PM
I was working at department store and a guy used a stolen credit card to try and make a purchase. I started to ring the sale and the card came up stolen. I had our undercover cop in our area at the time. He identified himself to the guy and he took off running...only thing was he ran back into an area with no outlet to escape, cop corners him and I'm following the action. The cop is in the process of cuffing him and the guy gets hold of the cops gun. The cop tells me to help get the gun, I beat the tar out of him but he wouldn't stop.I put my fingers in his eye and then the cop bit his ear off (actually bit the top of the ear off).....That was the end of it and soon the dude gave up.The cop thanked me to no end and I felt glad to have helped.

markj
April 29, 2009, 01:32 PM
that security guard remark was uncalled for. I come from an extensive military background and currently work security for a city school district.

Military training isnt what most security guards get. Sorry if it offended you, most of these folks havent ever had a gun shot at them or have training for this. I have relatives here in the police force one of them also does security guard stuff. I do not question his ability, he has training. I also have relatives in the Corp, I do not question them either, they have training, one is in Iraq right now.

I have seen a guy shoot at a guy less than 10 feet away and miss every shot. OK it was me getting shot at. In my previous line of work I was shot at, was shot once, was stabbed once. I am not talking out of my rear end.

Folks never really know how they will react till it happens unless they have extensive training in simulated circumstances like in say boot camp.

Glenn E. Meyer
April 29, 2009, 01:43 PM
The Tyler gentleman did hit the target but from many accounts did not properly deal with action after the hits.

Note, I clearly said - make the hits and win the fight. That's the point - he didn't win the fight because from some accounts he did not follow through appropriately.

David Armstrong
April 29, 2009, 02:39 PM
I have seen a guy shoot at a guy less than 10 feet away and miss every shot.
That is not that unusual, be it military, LE, security guard, or other.

bds32
April 29, 2009, 02:58 PM
The officers were doing their job and there was nothing wrong with contacting the suspect in the parking lot of a gun range. The suspect had no guns in his hand, having concealed a handgun on his person. A man can be armed anywhere you contact him. In fact, I argue that the most dangerous place to contact a domestic violence suspect is at his home where if he has weapons, they are sure to be loaded and ready. In the LE world, we call this a "stronghold". This is the most likely place of contact regarding domestic violence suspects and unfortunately, alot of officers have been killed when they were shot on approach to a house. The Deputies had a duty to contact him and immediately take him under arrest. He had committed an assault on his spouse and needed to be arrested. Whose to say, he would not have returned to his wife, if left alone, and killed her. Now after the contact, there are a lot of things that could have been done different and other officers will learn from their mistakes but I won't go into those. Here is a good read of the event and you can draw your own conclusions: http://odmp.org/officer/19925-deputy-sheriff-warren-(skip)-york

As far as a citizen joining the affray as it is going down, some will, some won't. You have to know yourself, your abilities, your willingness. Some are men of action and some are not. An example of a man of action is a citizen named Gary Kness. Gary participated in one of the most notorious police shootings in the 20th century: Newhall California April 1970 in which two suspects shot and killed four highway patrolmen on a traffic stop. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newhall_Massacre

Gary, a Marine, was truly a hero. After seeing officers going down, he ran into the fight unarmed in an attempt to drag one of the downed officers to cover. He then picked up a shotgun and attempted to stop one of the suspects but the shotgun was empty. Kness picked up the officer's revolver and fired the one remaining round at one suspect, striking him with fragments of the deflected round. Unfortunately, the fragments did not stop the suspect and having no loaded arms to continue the fight, Kness had to flee himself after he saw the fourth and final officer go down. Kness survived the incident and the suspects fled. Gary is an example of what some men (and women) are capable of and what some are not. To the Gary Knesses of the world, you have my deepest and dearest appreciation.

Lost Sheep
May 2, 2009, 04:16 PM
bds32,

Thanks for posting the link to a more complete and accurate account. Reading the original post, then the newspaper account, and now the report you linked, my view of the events has evolved considerably.

Whatever else I should do, I am a citizen of the world of humanity and am obliged to help the good. Being the best witness I can be is the minimum. If that means staying out of it and just watching (or videotaping) is the sum total, so be it.

If I am not sure I will not make the situation worse, I will stay out of it.

If I am not tactically trained, to approach an ongoing struggle between a fleeing suspect and a (wounded) police officer is not a sound move. Better I should render aid to the fallen officer, I think.

If I am tactically trained, perhaps even familiar with the local jurisdiction's procedures and rules of engagement, I would join the struggle. But I have to consider that the officer does not know if I am there to help him or I might be an accomplice of the suspect. Other armed citizens might not be able to tell the difference, either. Good tactics take all factors into account.

But if a shot should present itself where all the following criteria were satisified: my intervention appeared necessary to stop an ongoing danger or prevent an imminent one, my intervention was safe for innocent bystanders, I am darn sure I have targeted the right person.

What did I leave out?

Given the scenario that is playing out in my mind's eye now, I would say I would not shoot. And probably regret it later. (My tactical training is dated and slim.)

Lost Sheep

wingman
May 2, 2009, 04:44 PM
Any decision based on using a firearm in todays world have a good lawyer, I don't believe it should be that way when attempting to help someone but it simply is.

digisol
May 3, 2009, 03:07 AM
Shoot the bad guy so he won't be going anywhere, with whatever gun handy.

skoro
May 3, 2009, 08:38 AM
A hypothetical senario: If you were at the gun range/sportmens club and you witnessed two officers attempting to arrest someone. Ok now that person starts shooting and both officers go down. What do you do?


I'd be thinking to myself, "Self, what in blazes would possess the cops to try to make an arrest of a dangerous criminal in a circumstance were he's known to have loaded weapons at the ready?" :confused:

bds32
May 3, 2009, 02:11 PM
I'd be thinking to myself, "Self, what in blazes would possess the cops to try to make an arrest of a dangerous criminal in a circumstance were he's known to have loaded weapons at the ready?"

Their duty. The weapon wasn't at the ready. It was concealed just like it could have been five miles away from the range or in the living room of his house. This is a non issue.

OuTcAsT
May 3, 2009, 05:10 PM
Their duty. The weapon wasn't at the ready. It was concealed just like it could have been five miles away from the range or in the living room of his house. This is a non issue.

I disagree, While it is true that the weapon was concealed, and I will concede that it could have happened anywhere, the fact still remains that they confronted him at a gun range, a place where the probability was more likely than not that he could/would have access to a loaded weapon.


Their duty.

Quite, but it is also their duty to use common sense and, to return home safely.

Ian0351
May 3, 2009, 06:21 PM
"Self, what in blazes would possess the cops to try to make an arrest of a dangerous criminal in a circumstance were he's known to have loaded weapons at the ready?"

Following Orders. LEOs, just like soldiers, sailors and marines, get orders from superiors which they follow to the best of their ability. Some of them are asinine, some of them are downright stupid... but you don't tell the Lieutenant that, you follow the last order given.
As has already been pointed out in this thread by residents of the state in question and several practicing LEOs, in DV situations there is a duty to act and waiting is not acceptable. I think it is also worth mentioning that we currently live in a climate where a couple of nut cases with a grudge have decided to shoot up a church/nursing home/civic center and give the rest of us a bad name. You don't want to be the police lieutenant who told his officers to hold off a day to arrest Jiverly Wong.

Tucker 1371
May 3, 2009, 06:59 PM
If the police went to a gun range to arrest someone they would probably bring more than enough firepower and officers.

They didn't, this actually happened and 2 Florida LEOs are dead now because of it. Whoever sent them there made a horrible tactical error. A gun range has to be the dumbest possible place to attempt an arrest. While ultimate responsibility lies in the hands of the shooter (who is also dead now) some of the blame falls on whoever made the call to send these two officers to a gun range to arrest someone who they knew was predisposed to violence.

hogdogs
May 3, 2009, 07:25 PM
May I add, as a resident of the county next to Okaloosa where the shooter was stopped and rightfully killed, the sheriffs dept of the slain officers realize mistakes in tactics were made and surronding counties are also implementing this case in training of all LEO's from patrolmen on up...
Brent

OuTcAsT
May 3, 2009, 09:49 PM
Following Orders. LEOs, just like soldiers, sailors and marines, get orders from superiors which they follow to the best of their ability.

Sorry, gonna call BS on that one. Sure if you are given an order in the mil. you are gonna follow it...to a point.

If ordered to "step on that land mine" You get my drift.

Whoever sent them there made a horrible tactical error.

Seriously? At what point does "common sense" kick in?


Commander: "You and your partner go over to the shooting range and arrest this violent, wife beating SOB"

Patrolman: "No problem boss, we'll be right behind you"

/sarcasm

At some point you must know your own limitations, it was foolhardy, at least, for these officers to try this.

You don't want to be the police lieutenant who told his officers to hold off a day to arrest Jiverly Wong.


You can also send officers to follow him at a distance until he is in an environment that would be tactically better than a live fire shooting range to attempt an arrest.

Orders do not mitigate the personal initiative to not put yourself in this kind of situation.

hogdogs
May 3, 2009, 09:54 PM
Tactically better? Like the mall? You are afraid to confront at the range while perp is out side of his vehicle with no visible weapon at ready... So you rather let him enter the truck and leave with known weapons at his ready? To go to a "tactically better" location? I am not a cop and didn't sleep at a holiday inn express last night but I think I got a better rational on this... Take him into custody ASAP! At least at the range the innocent bystanders are armed! Unfortunately the parking lot is many yards from the firing line so those folks were not able to shoot back!
Brent

OuTcAsT
May 4, 2009, 08:13 AM
At least at the range the innocent bystanders are armed!

While I cannot argue this particular bit of your logic, this part is where it gets fuzzy;

You are afraid to confront at the range while perp is out side of his vehicle with no visible weapon at ready.

Just speaking from my own personal experience but, if you catch me between the range, and my vehicle,(the story linked did not say where on the range this took place) you can be pretty sure that I will have a minimum of 1 weapon ready. Depending on what went with me that day, once I get to the car most go in the back of the truck or car trunk, and my carry weapon is not as easily accessed in the car as it would be in the open.

The other thing that disturbs me is that the story says they were having trouble cuffing him, sounds like that given his history, and the location, not nearly enough officers were present, but I digress.

As for the question of shooting the suspect, no. unless he is sending lead my way I will cover and observe. If he's firing indiscriminately all bets are off and he may expect heavy resistance.

Tactically better? Like the mall?

This statement assumes a lot, again I go to what I know (which may not be much) but most outdoor ranges here are, by design, in rural areas. Lot's of roadway between A and B.

Ian0351
May 4, 2009, 08:23 AM
Sorry, gonna call BS on that one. Sure if you are given an order in the mil. you are gonna follow it...to a point.
If ordered to "step on that land mine" You get my drift.

Come on, seriously?

I was thinking more along the lines of "get yer butts into that building full of insurgents and secure it" or "go do your job and arrest the bad guy". How about riding in a higgins boat to a beach reinforced with battalions of angry Germans, concertina wire and machine guns? At some point people in dangerous jobs have to get out there and take risks to get the dirtbags off the street.

hogdogs
May 4, 2009, 09:04 AM
The deputies were following up on a domestic assault report they had taken hours earlier, and located the suspect at a gun club in Crestview. The suspect was in the parking lot standing next to his truck. Deputy Lopez and Deputy York approached the suspect, had a brief conversation with him, and then informed him he was going to be arrested. As the deputies moved to handcuff the him, he became uncooperative and began to resist arrest. Deputy York fired his Taser (conducted energy device) and hit the suspect. The suspect dropped to the ground during the five-second jolt of electricity. When the Taser cycle ended, the suspect immediately drew a concealed handgun and opened fire. Deputy Lopez was able to radio for assistance while he and Deputy York engaged the suspect in a gun battle.
Emphasis mine... As you see no mention of visible weapon. And he drew a concealed weapon to kill the officers.
From this link...
http://odmp.org/officer/19925-deputy-sheriff-warren-(skip)-york
Posted on page 4 #88.
He was not between the firing line and parking area. He was standing at his truck no guns in hand. Initially cooperative.
No trouble cuffing unless you count the resistance met with a taser.
And yes, this range is in the boonies. But it is a 2 lane U.S. Highway with many high speed, wide radius curves where a high speed pursuit would likely result in a head on collision with an oncoming vehicle doing a minimum of 55 mph. No way to get traffic stopped less than 18 miles (intersection where chase ended) from the range. No way to get officers in front of chase right away as the area from the range to the chase end location is not heavily patrolled due to the peaceful rural setting typically in place.
Brent

OuTcAsT
May 4, 2009, 10:46 AM
He was not between the firing line and parking area. He was standing at his truck no guns in hand. Initially cooperative.
No trouble cuffing unless you count the resistance met with a taser.
And yes, this range is in the boonies. But it is a 2 lane U.S. Highway with many high speed, wide radius curves where a high speed pursuit would likely result in a head on collision with an oncoming vehicle doing a minimum of 55 mph. No way to get traffic stopped less than 18 miles (intersection where chase ended) from the range. No way to get officers in front of chase right away as the area from the range to the chase end location is not heavily patrolled due to the peaceful rural setting typically in place.

Well, that changes everything then. Officers followed the book, charged into the face of danger to arrest the BG at the perfect location before he could get away.

If I am wrong I will be the first to admit it, (happens a lot)

onthejon55
May 4, 2009, 11:07 AM
John Dillinger killed a cop and he was pretty cool.

If the guy shot the cops then ran away Id let him be, if the guy start looking for other people to shoot then I would step in.

Blue Steel
May 13, 2009, 01:38 AM
John Dillinger killed a cop and he was pretty cool.

If the guy shot the cops then ran away Id let him be, if the guy start looking for other people to shoot then I would step in.

Are you serious with this? The police go into harms way everyday, and contrary to Hollywood & the news most of them are honest, hardworking, and trying to keep their communties a safe place to live.

To think that anybody, including John Dillinger, should be given a pass for murder simply because their victim was a police officer is obscene.

As far as your "cool" guy Dillinger, he was a school dropout who joined the Navy to stay out of trouble with the law and then went AWOL and was dishonorably discharged. He was a loser that couldn't keep his marriage together, couldn't hold a job, and could barely keep from getting arrested for much of his "career". His gang is credited with murdering at least 10 people. I wonder who many widows and orphans they left in their wake?

Blue Steel
May 13, 2009, 02:38 AM
As far as the thread scenario, one thing I would want to consider is are you involving yourself in an attack that is in progress or one that has already been completed and the suspect is trying to flee. Most gunfights are fast, and will be over quickly, so you're likely to realize that the police are down as the suspect is fleeing the scene.

If the suspect is fleeing the scene then I think there is nothing wrong with being a good witness and rendering first aid. That said I like a previous post that mentions raining fire on the suspect vehicle. At the least you damage the vehicle and make it more recognizable and at best you put a GoldDot through the suspects medulla (this is of course after considering backstop/bystanders, etc).

For those of you who don't want to engage the suspect, consider this twist. If the officers are both down, but the suspect is still engaged with them and not attempting to flee, how would you feel if he walked up on his wounded, incapacitated victims and executed them with a finishing shot to the head? If the police officers are down and the suspects isn't fleeing, I am likely to start shooting.

ssilicon
May 13, 2009, 02:59 AM
With the situation you described, one does not know for sure that the cops were the GGs and the shooter was the BG. I'm serious. Criminals have been known to impersonate police from time to time.

If I was a mastermind for some gang I was in, I might consider a shooting range a pretty good place to score some guns. Coming off as cops could "disarm" your intended victims so to speak making what would seem like an insane idea all of a sudden not so far fetched. Of course you better hope none of the people there are off duty who know you aren't one, but still. It might be something a gang desperate for guns would send some low level members to try for them. If they pull it off great, if not, there are others to replace them.

But, assuming you know the cops are for real, then I would say immediately cover the BG with your gun while you yourself try to get behind some cover. You being alive is as much as evidence against the BG, so it is very reasonable to consider he may go for you next to erase that evidence. Be prepared as you can be. At this point, you have the right to use force to effect a citizens arrest. You directly witnessed someone commit a crime which is an arrestable offense (capital murder of 2 officers). It is not heresay or guesswork. You witnessed it. But, whether you CHOOSE to try and arrest a dangerous criminal with a gun in his hand is something each person has to decide for themselves based upon risk and other factors. Even cops try to get backup before engaging someone like this unless the BG forces the issue on them.

ScottG1911
May 13, 2009, 03:13 AM
Just cause they're pigs dont mean they aren't tryin to screw over on the guy. some places in this country, you are well within your rights to kill anybody who tries to violate your constitutional rights

ScottG1911
May 13, 2009, 03:21 AM
Are you serious with this? The police go into harms way everyday, and contrary to Hollywood & the news most of them are honest, hardworking, and trying to keep their communties a safe place to live.

I think the question is, are you serious? I didnt know how dangerous the dunken donuts was :eek: Honest? I know cops i get along with, but I would never trust one. Hardworking? Cruisin in a car writing tickets to honest people is damn hard work. trying to keep communities safe? I've seen them runnin around acting like they are doing something important, you know pulling guns on skateboarders, giving tickets keeps us safe from crime, arresting people for self defense. Contrary to belief, cops are as worthless as tits on a bull, I'll take care of myself:)

hogdogs
May 13, 2009, 03:58 AM
SSilicon, The situation posted about involved 2 uniformed county deputies in a marked patrol car complete with roof rack of lights... Not much reason to believe they were impostors.
Brent

Blue Steel
May 13, 2009, 04:29 AM
Just cause they're pigs dont mean they aren't tryin to screw over on the guy. some places in this country, you are well within your rights to kill anybody who tries to violate your constitutional rights

What are you Constitutional rights? And which ones are you legally able to use deadly force to protect?

Educate us.

ScottG1911
May 13, 2009, 04:43 AM
all the way i understand the law

ssilicon
May 13, 2009, 08:00 AM
SSilicon, The situation posted about involved 2 uniformed county deputies in a marked patrol car complete with roof rack of lights... Not much reason to believe they were impostors.
Brent


Brent, then go with the second part of my post. I covered it both ways.

David Armstrong
May 13, 2009, 10:05 AM
some places in this country, you are well within your rights to kill anybody who tries to violate your constitutional rights
OK, I'll bite. Name one state, and provide the proper statute please, that allows you to use deadly force to prevent a violation of your constitutional rights. I bet you can't do it.

Capt Charlie
May 13, 2009, 12:10 PM
I think it's safe to say that this one's run its course. Advocating killing "anybody that tries to violate your constitutional rights" certainly does nothing to promote responsible firearms ownership and doesn't put any of us in a good light.

Closed.