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PanamaJane65
April 24, 2009, 08:10 AM
As I carry my Glock 36 concealed and without a round in the chamber (because of kids), I would like to learn the operational aspects of chambering a round if the time arises that I need to do that quickly. Can someone explain the process of how to do this to me from concealment (shirt)?

thanks

GuyMontag
April 24, 2009, 08:49 AM
Pull slide to rear.
Release.
Re-holster.
Continue carrying.

Unless your gun is not operating as it should be, it is safe to carry with one in the chamber. I don't understand how kids affects this?

OldMarksman
April 24, 2009, 08:50 AM
I carry my Glock 36 concealed and without a round in the chamber ... I would like to learn the operational aspects of chambering a round if the time arises that I need to do that quickly. Can someone explain the process of how to do this to me from concealment (shirt)?

OK. I'm not the expert, nor am I an instructor. But for fun, I'll try to return the punt.


Draw The gun.
Retract the slide and release it.
Hope it's not too late.:)


I carry with five chambers loaded.:)

I have just acquired a compact, modern 9MM pistol, with which I am still practicing and trying to find sufficient ammunition to make sure it functions reliably. I cannot imagine carrying it without a round in the chamber.

If you train for drawing from concealment when the threat becomes one of imminent, unavoidable danger of death or serious bodily injury (Tueller drill, say), you may find that getting the gun out and training on a a rapidly advancing attacker before he gets within arms reach of you is enough of a challenge without having to chamber a round. Use a blue training gun.

Seems to me that adding the extra step is asking for trouble, and all you may be doing is offering your gun to the attacker.

Now let's see what real experts say.

thawntex
April 24, 2009, 08:57 AM
I, too, am a little confused as to what the kids have to do with a chambered round. Would you mind explaining please?

-T

Erik
April 24, 2009, 09:27 AM
I've heard a lot of folks over the years admit to carrying without a round in the chamber because of the presence of children in their lives.

I do not understand the notion. (1) Carrying with an empty chamber is not safer. (2) Regardless, the firearm is under the control of the carrier, not the children. (3) Re the storage of firearms: children* should not have unattended access to firearms, empty chambers or not. (4) In the event that children achieve unattended access to firearms, it is not as if having empty chambers makes that a safe scenario.

* There's a point where children are often considered old enough for unattended access to firearms. Each family must decide for themselves when that is.

Best.

#18indycolts
April 24, 2009, 10:06 AM
maybe he doesn't like one chambered just for "peace of mind", those that don't have kids can't speak of this issue.

NavyLT
April 24, 2009, 10:27 AM
she - PanamaJane65

Jane,
Have you ever shot this gun?

Enoy21
April 24, 2009, 10:32 AM
Regardless of peoples views of weather you should carry one in the chamber or not ...


Here is how I would train for it for speed ( as I have a Glock as well and THINK I know what you are asking )

When drawing with your shooting hand , bringing the gun up to target... take your offhand with the thumb pointed to you ( for ergonomics and natural smooth transition ) Rack the slide as the gun continues it's path to target.

With practice you should be able to turn this into one smooth motion with maybe a .5 second delay slower than if you have the chamber loaded.

The way your post is worded though I wonder if you are asking how to rack the slide while Still keeping the gun concealed ? That's one you would have to workout for yourself and I highly advise against trying to do so as it adds more into the mix to agitate a high stress situation.

Now , personally ... As I just started carrying , I still prefer to keep one out of the chamber myself with the trigger fully depressed in one of the safest states. Yet treat it like there is always one there. I won't feel comfortable until more time has passed and I am better practiced to avoid an AD. I also hope that I am never in a situation where I don't have that 1 second to rack the slide and that I will be able to recognize the threat and take cover prior to firing...


I don't exactly train to me Quick Draw Mcgraw but rather to be able to hit my target after assessment regardless of conditions.

NavyLT
April 24, 2009, 10:41 AM
To me, the biggest reason to carry with one in the chamber is not necessarily speed, but reliabilty. I chamber the round at home prior to carrying because I want that action to occur in a completely controlled environment. In the controlled environment I have the opportunity to double check the gun to ensure the round did, in fact, chamber properly.

It would be a terrible feeling in a self defense situation to have to pull the trigger to save my life or the life of those important to me and get nothing but a click because the round I had to chamber a moment before in a stressful and unknown environment did not chamber correctly.

Jane,
If you want to practice, obtain snap caps for your gun. Snap caps are fake rounds that you can place in your gun that are not capable of firing but will allow you to practice loading and unloading your gun in a safe manner.

Enoy21
April 24, 2009, 10:46 AM
To me, the biggest reason to carry with one in the chamber is not necessarily speed, but reliabilty. I chamber the round at home prior to carrying because I want that action to occur in a completely controlled environment. In the controlled environment I have the opportunity to double check the gun to ensure the round did, in fact, chamber properly.


That is, in fact, a very excellent point.

Kyo
April 24, 2009, 10:51 AM
Get snap caps like someone suggested. Put a mag in with the snap caps and nothing else. Don't chamber the snap cap.
Practice drawing/pulling the slide at the same time.
Same thing as normal drawing except when your weak hand is on your chest/stomach, as you move your gun forward with the strong hand grab the slide with the weak and pull back. Then grip with the weak hand. Yea its slower, and it has weak points, but if you are convinced that it is what you need so be it.
Honestly maybe you need a gun with a safety instead. You can put the safety off lots faster than pulling back a slide, and it is already part of a draw anyway.
If you are that worried about it, a glock is not the right choice for you.

KingEdward
April 24, 2009, 10:57 AM
carrying a weapon would mean that one understands there may be situations arise in today's world when said weapon will have to be pulled.

If said weapon has to be pulled, there is another likelihood that it will have to be fired.

That is not the time to even have to ponder "is there one in the chamber", "can I draw and rack the slide in time to save me and/or my children?" Too many people think that they will have time on their side in a
threatening situation. This is not the case.

I carry a small revolver. Always 5 ready to go. There are enough other concerns when/if it is pulled for use. Don't want to fool with more getting it "ready" when necessary.

KLRANGL
April 24, 2009, 11:02 AM
I recommend that, if you do continue carrying with a chamber empty, that you find some instruction on how to manipulate a slide with one hand

Indy_Guy_77
April 24, 2009, 12:10 PM
IMO, carrying an unloaded weapon is quite useless.

If you think that you'll have the A) time B) presence of mind C) gross motor skills and D) fine motor skills to accomplish a draw from concealment AND chambering a round, it is my opinion that you are placing yourself in a situation to get yourself dead.

Drawing from concealment while under duress will be difficult and slow enough as it is.

If you want to completely unload your weapon while you are at home, that's another matter. But please, for your own sake, carry with a round in the chamber.

-J-

GuyMontag
April 24, 2009, 12:31 PM
indycolts, I do understand what it's like to carry and have a child.

My daughter is 5 1/2 and I carry around her with one in the chamber and a spare mag on my left hip. I have no hesitations or concerns as I know my equipment is safe and maintained and I and only I control my firearms around her.

Quite frankly, I feel safer with a round chambered. If I were to have an issue with her around, I'd rather have my weak hand free to hold her behind me, push her behind something, etc.

NavyLT
April 24, 2009, 12:57 PM
Quite frankly, I feel safer with a round chambered. If I were to have an issue with her around, I'd rather have my weak hand free to hold her behind me, push her behind something, etc.

Not having children myself, that's an aspect of it that hadn't occured to me.

Sparks2112
April 24, 2009, 01:15 PM
Carry chambered. Can you imagine letting your child somehow removing your gun from your holster? I can't think of one reasonable set of circumstances that could arise that would put your child in possession of your loaded hand gun carried on your person.

Not trying to be contrary. I just can't see as to how it actually matters.

pax
April 24, 2009, 01:34 PM
PanamaJane ~

Welcome to TFL. :)

As the others above, I'd suggest you re-think carrying without a round in the chamber. The reason for this is that racking the slide generally takes two hands and at least a brief window of time. You may or may not have the time, and you may or may not have two hands. In particular, if you need to (for example) shove a child down and to safety while drawing, you won't be able to rack the slide at the same time as you get your child down and out of the line of fire. If you can't do both -- get the gun into play, and get the child to safety -- you'll have to choose one. But if you choose to shove the child to temporary safety, the danger becomes more extreme and you become unable to defend either yourself or the child. If instead you choose to rack the slide, leaving the child standing there, you are now equipped to protect yourself and child -- but the child may be in the line of fire. More time and more danger...

Another possibility: if you are toting an infant or toddler on your hip when trouble arrives, you may be able to draw one-handed, but you probably won't be able to get a round into the chamber that way -- and then what? Bluff? Criminals generally have a finely honed sense of when people are bluffing (it's what they do for a living after all!) and if the guy calls your bluff, it'll be a problem. Drop the child so you can rack the slide? I don't think so...

Another one: an intruder comes to the door. You grab the kids and retreat to your safe room, shoving the safe room door shut behind you. The intruder is right behind you, shoving the door. You must hold that door shut at all costs! So your body is tied up in the struggle to keep him out of the room where your children are. Your firearm is on your body, and you maybe could draw without allowing the door to open -- but there's no way to rack the slide once you've drawn. And pitting your physical strength against his is a losing struggle. The door is opening ... now what? Are you ready to fire or not?

There are ways to learn how to rack a slide one-handed, but it's a last-resort technique, not something you would regularly do by choice. It takes even more time, and even under calm range conditions most people aren't 100% reliable racking the slide one-handed. And learning the technique is somewhat dangerous unless you have a very experienced person walking you through it in person.

For all these reasons, I'd really urge you to find a solid, secure holster which covers the trigger guard and holds the gun in place, and then trust that holster to do its job. Here's how to check whether the holster will do its job.

1) Unload the gun. Unload it again -- lock it open, visually inspect the chamber and the magazine well to be sure both are empty. Unload it one more time -- lock it open, and run your pinkie finger into the chamber to be sure there's no round in the chamber, then run a finger into the magazine well to be sure the mag well is empty too.

2) Place the unloaded gun in your holster, without the holster being on your body.

3) Hold the holstered gun an inch or two above a soft surface (a bed or a couch). Turn it upside down and shake gently. If the gun stays in, yay!! If it falls out, check to see if there's a tension screw; if so, tighten the screw. If not, throw the holster away. It's dangerous. Try the test again. If the holster doesn't pass, throw it away because it's dangerous. If it passes, proceed to step 4.

4) With the unloaded gun still in the holster, try to get a finger into the trigger guard and onto the trigger. Can you do it? If so, throw the holster away. It's dangerous. If not, proceed to step 5.

5) With the unloaded gun still in the holster, run your finger firmly along the outside of the holster. Can you wrinkle the outer surface of the holster enough to move the trigger even a tiny bit? If so, throw the holster away because it's dangerous. If not -- load the gun and trust the holster to do its job.

Now some recommended reading for you: www.corneredcat.com -- click "table of contents" and read everything in the section about kids and guns. There are several articles there that might be helpful to you.

Again, welcome! Glad you're here. :)

pax
(mom to five boys now in their teen and young adult years)

#18indycolts
April 24, 2009, 01:45 PM
very few of us have even attempted to answer her original question of: I would like to learn the operational aspects of chambering a round if the time arises that I need to do that quickly. Can someone explain the process of how to do this to me from concealment (shirt)?


everyone has been hell bent on telling her that not carrying one in the chamber is unsafe. Whatever everyone's opinions are on the matter of chambered or not is moot. Its personal preference here, and to answer the question: Since I don't carry unchambered, my best advice is to practice and practice lots.

GuyMontag
April 24, 2009, 01:56 PM
So, we should give her advice that supplies her needs even if it's less safe?

I want to look down my barrel while I pull the trigger cause I think it'd be neat to see what it looks like when the rifling imparts a spin on my bullet. Should I pull the trigger with my left or right hand?

#18indycolts
April 24, 2009, 02:02 PM
So, we should give her advice that supplies her needs even if it's less safe?


less safe to NOT have one in the chamber? :rolleyes: That statement can go both ways.

GuyMontag
April 24, 2009, 02:10 PM
The original question points out that the unchambered round is due to children. If a firearm has limited access to only the people that are authorized to use it, how is having a round chambered less safe? Please help me understand how I am better served with a gun in Condition 3?

BlueTrain
April 24, 2009, 02:35 PM
Some have recommended carrying chamber empty because they just didn't like safeties. They thought that sooner or later, they would be on when you thought they were off and vice versa. That individual actually recommended disabling all manual safeties. I wouldn't go that far and, besides, there are no on Glock pistols (and I don't consider the lever in the trigger to be a manual safety).

Personally, I don't think it can be adequately explained in writing. But good luck finding a trainer who will help. However, I think there are other considerations not previously mentioned, at least not in this thread.

First of all, I have a pistol that is difficult to retract the slide on because it is small and slick--and it's a double action with no hammer drop. I have had a couple others like that from having been refinished. But again, the Glock ought not have that problem.

I think a greater problem, though, with a pistol with a chambered round, single or double action, is the problem of what you do with it when it isn't being carried, unless you store it in a ready state, which is probably the case for most people. That might be a special consideration for cocked and locked carry with single actions but, again, not a problem with the Glock. But it always seemed like frequently chambering and rechambering a round in an automatic is a little chancy. Yes, I like revolvers. But I like automatics even better.

SquidWarrior
April 24, 2009, 03:15 PM
I hate to side with everyone else, as I believe that the way one carries his weapon is that mans business, but I do not advise carrying condition three. If you feel you must, as soon as you clear the holster, grab the back of the slide and as you present to the target, the slide racks as you extend your arm and weapon out. Again, as an instructer I do not advise this.

NavyLT
April 24, 2009, 03:49 PM
We should look at the added discussion as value added to the thread. Several people posted the way to rack the slide: pull the slide to the rear and release it.

At least two posters seemed to indicate that there was a point they have not thought of before:

twellons acknowledging my point about a more reliable operation if the chamber is loaded under controlled conditions allowing for a second check
AND
myself acknowledging GuyMontag's point about having the weak hand free to push children to safety.

So, yes, a lot of added discussion above and beyond what was asked, but I think if we just come out from behind our "my way is the right way" shields and honestly consider what others have to say, we can all consider points that maybe we or the OP haven't thought about before.

Personally, I did not post instructions on how to rack the slide because they had already been posted.

NavyLT
April 24, 2009, 03:52 PM
In answer to the OP's exact question, there is one element that has not been covered that is important:

on some guns such as the Taurus Mil Pro, the slide CANNOT be pulled back with the safety on. If PanamaJane's gun is a gun such as this, and she desires to carry it without a round in the chamber, I would highly recommend carrying it with the safety off because, without a round in the chamber, the safety is doing nothing other than preventing the slide from being pulled back.

ligonierbill
April 24, 2009, 06:48 PM
First, I certainly hope your holster covers the trigger fully. I had an older Galco that did not. Second, and I need some help here, there are various types of "retention holsters" designed to keep a bad guy from taking a cop's gun. Usually not an issue for concealed carry, but kids are very inventive. Anyone know of such a holster designed for civilian CCW?

Kyo
April 24, 2009, 11:49 PM
her gun is a glock. no safety on the outside. This is why I suggested a different gun, and then gave instructions on how to do it.
A different way would be to(on the strong side draw)
1. Pull the shirt up with the weak hand then put hand down to waist
2. grab pistol with strong hand bring pistol to waist level with weak hand
3. weak hand clamps to the slide and pulls back as the strong hand pulls forward.
4. let go with weak hand
5. take an aggressive 1 handed stance, fire and move.
6. move back, 2 hands, move forward 1 hand shooting.
Or you can draw and put it up to your pectoral level, weak hand goes to the front of slide, snaps it back and you can finish presenting or shoot from there in a compact position.
There are a million ways. experiment with what you are comfortable with, and practice it for like an hour a day every day. Why? because you are at a disadvantage and the practice/technique will have to make up for that

rainmaker870
April 26, 2009, 07:54 PM
I too have to side with carrying a chambered round, but.... if you have already determined that doing so is not for you, check out something called the "Israeli Instinctive Shooting Method." I don't like it, I don't subscribe to it. It strongly advocates carrying withOUT a round in the chamber, and goes into great detail (much more than is possible here) on how to quickly chamber a round. With two (2) hands, all the time.

As previously stated it's difficult to do if you're trying to manage a small child at the same time. It's probably the best method you will find for what you want do to.

And, once you've spent some time with the concept, if you still feel the need to carry without a round in the chamber, do some research on wounded officer drills and the like; those will address the ability to chamber a round ONE handed.

tpareloader
April 26, 2009, 08:22 PM
As I carry my Glock 36 concealed and without a round in the chamber (because of kids), I would like to learn the operational aspects of chambering a round if the time arises that I need to do that quickly. Can someone explain the process of how to do this to me from concealment (shirt)?

thanks

Jane look up the israeli draw, that is what your are looking for. You can find it on you tube or just google it. It is designed for people who do not carry one in the chamber.

Kyo
April 26, 2009, 08:27 PM
that was back in the day, Israeli draw isn't used by Israel anymore
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/96599/pro_security_training_in_guatemala/
found a vid. seems like they put the pistol in front of the face, rack it and fire one handed before placing the 2nd hand to the gun

Greg_TX
April 26, 2009, 11:09 PM
Just playing devil's advocate here, and I'm not saying you should carry on empty, but what would happen if you normally carry one in the pipe and for some reason fail or forget to chamber it some day? The argument for one in the chamber is instant readiness, but what if that first pull you depend on clicks empty? It would take longer to recover from that than the other case where you know you have to rack one in and get proficient at doing it.

jgcoastie
April 27, 2009, 12:36 AM
Just playing devil's advocate here, and I'm not saying you should carry on empty, but what would happen if you normally carry one in the pipe and for some reason fail or forget to chamber it some day? The argument for one in the chamber is instant readiness, but what if that first pull you depend on clicks empty? It would take longer to recover from that than the other case where you know you have to rack one in and get proficient at doing it.

Or you could do what most of us do:

1. Insert magazine
2. Chamber round
3. Holster gun
4. Leave it in the holster

When you get home, put it away (still in holster, still loaded) in whatever safe location that you store your firearms (safe, gun cabinet, sock drawer, any other location that you keep your gun).

I would love to be able to do this, but since I live on a military installation that prohibits concealed carry and transport of loaded weapons in vehicles; I typically pull over about 1/4 mile from the gate, release mag, rack slide/empty chamber, put the gun in the center console and the mag in the glove compartment. I keep my gun in a holster on my nightstand with mag inserted, empty chamber.

It's all about personal preference, but if you're going to be carrying the gun, might as well have it loaded. Your kids shouldn't have access to it while it's on your hip...

Ian0351
April 27, 2009, 01:48 AM
Because it's what I'm used to. When a situation arises that I feel a need to be armed I draw the weapon, chamber a round and re-holster. There are a few reasons for this: 1-I clear my guns alot, I never store a weapon with a mag in if I am in my car and say, headed into a tavern or government building, this saves me from having to catch an ejected round; 2-The situation in which the citizen has to draw and fire against a charging mugger is not what I train for, I am personally more concerned with multiple commando-types attacking a soft target I happen to be at (such as the recent Mumbai attacks in India) or a bank robbery scenario; 3- I often carry with my gun in a holster inside of a messenger bag, I find this is the least apparent method (printing and so on) and while it is not as ready as an uncomfortable IWB, it's better than being unarmed.

Also, I think in many cases opening my jacket and blazing away will probably just get me shot by an accomplice before I take down the whole crew. I am certainly not fast-draw McGraw with the unshakable aim of a western movie gunslinger, So I go for surprise/ambush over speed.

FWIW I don't have any carpet-crawlers to complicate my plans... yet.

pax
April 27, 2009, 08:10 AM
Ian's post brings up one more thing: the less unnecessary handling of the gun you do during the day, the less likely you are to experience an accidental or negligent discharge.

Just playing devil's advocate here, and I'm not saying you should carry on empty, but what would happen if you normally carry one in the pipe and for some reason fail or forget to chamber it some day? The argument for one in the chamber is instant readiness, but what if that first pull you depend on clicks empty? It would take longer to recover from that than the other case where you know you have to rack one in and get proficient at doing it.

That's what failure drills are for. Habituate yourself to immediately Tap, Rack, (assess and) Bang if the gun doesn't fire. You need to practice failure drills regardless of your standard carry method, of course.

pax

David Armstrong
April 27, 2009, 02:40 PM
As I have always said, there are advantages and disadvantages to carrying either way, chamber loaded or chamber empty. The big issue is just what disadvantages one wants to address and what advantages are best for the individual in that situation. Thus chamber empty may be quite valid for some. Also, in spite of all the gloom and doom scenarios that are tossed around, when chamber empty carry was the common method of carrrying an autolader (most of the 20th Century and most of the world) we just didn't see all these claimed problems occurring. Having said my piece on that--

JANE, TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION:
The Israeli Method (which I like, use, and train when appropriate) starts with the gun on your strong side. The cover garment is cleared in a number of ways, depending on what it is. A shirt, worn untucked, the best way is probably to raise the shirt em upward with your offf-hand. The gun is grasped securely and brought up toward a position approximately 8 inches in front of and slightly below your chin, turned horizontal. As this is happening, the off hand drops the shirt and comes below and behind the gun, then moves forward to grasp the gun as follows:
Off-hand thumb on the side of the slide facing up. Thumb should be facing forward, pointing at the target. Index finger of the off-hand is on the side of the slide that is facing down. Contact should be primarily the fleshy pad of the side on the finger joint that is attached to the hand. The actual top of the slide, where the sights are, should be in the area between the thumb and index finger. While holding both the slide and the frame tightly, one makes a sharp pull with the off-hand pulling the slide all the way to the rear, an dreleasing it. As the slide is released the off-hand moves forward into support while the strong hand rotates the gun to an upright position. Fire as needed.
While it sounds complicated, you'd be surprised how easy it actually is with a little practice, and how fast it is. My students generally find their overall presentation time to be increased by about 2/10ths of a second with onlyh about 10 minutes of practice.

Enoy21
April 27, 2009, 03:00 PM
I watched a couple videos on that form , and I am having trouble understanding the necessity of drawing the gun so close to the face and holding sideways rather than bringing the gun up in the natural arc towards the target with the thumb pointing towards yourself and using the 4 fingers and palm of your hand to rack the slide. Seems a more natural position of the hands and the gun as they are traveling to the target.

rainmaker870
April 27, 2009, 03:30 PM
I am having trouble understanding the necessity of drawing the gun so close to the face and holding sideways

As it was explained to me, bringing the gun up to the face gets it in the plane of vision as you look at your target. Also as it was *taught* to me, rather than pulling with the off hand you hold the slide stationary in the off hand and punch out toward the target with the gun/strong hand, thus using the muscles in your strong arm to work the slide as you move the gun away from you; rotate the gun into firing position as you do so. Fire as necessary, bringing your off hand to the gun to complete the two hand hold. As I read this it becomes obvious to me as to why I am not an instructor. :)

I don't like it and didn't adopt it; it does help address the issues involved in carrying with an empty chamber and may work well for Jane or other folks who are so inclined.

David Armstrong
April 27, 2009, 03:47 PM
and I am having trouble understanding the necessity of drawing the gun so close to the face and holding sideways rather than bringing the gun up in the natural arc towards the target with the thumb pointing towards yourself and using the 4 fingers and palm of your hand to rack the slide.
It brings the gun into your plane of vision so you can begin to focus on the weapon and the target. There is also a muscle control issue, as the hands are restricted a bit in how far they can get from each other during the racking. Overall it is faster than trying to rack as you describe.

Also as it was *taught* to me, rather than pulling with the off hand you hold the slide stationary in the off hand and punch out toward the target with the gun/strong hand, thus using the muscles in your strong arm to work the slide as you move the gun away from you; rotate the gun into firing position as you do so.
It is actually a combination push/pull in a very short, sharp movement when done by those that have a bit of experience. I like to teach just the slide first as it seems easier for those with no experience to use, and it gets them used to getting the support hand back on the gun quickly. There are many variations on a theme, just like the variations to the Modern Technique.

Ian0351
April 27, 2009, 04:58 PM
Our military and most other countries I have trained with (Republic of Korea, Thailand, Australia and Canada) also use condition 3 carry with sidearm pistols in most situations, particularly in vehicles. Once a threat is present the weapon and shooter go to condition 1; until that time it is nearly damn impossible for the gun to go off unintended.
Of course, as a general rule, the military determines SOP because of things that have gone wrong, not that could possibly occur somewhere on an internet forum... No round in the chamber equals no round coming out of the barrel, period.

GuyMontag
April 27, 2009, 06:05 PM
If I missed this point being made already forgive me.

It seems that much of the advice that answers the OPs original needs or chambering a round after drawing is being done in a vacuum. Move your hand here, hold your other hand here, grab slide at this point, push here, pull there..... really?

You have no clue what may be out there if you every have to defend yourself. For those of us that try to imagine and train for different possibilities, the one we didn't expect is probably the one that'll be the one we're confronted with.

Why would you add more fine motor skill activity to an already stressful situation? If you're carrying groceries, a purse, two kids by the hand, and keys to the car when someone decides to take advantage of the situation, I bet you'll quickly realize you only have two hands.

Also, Kyo, the OP's gun is a Glock? What's wrong with a Glock and why does not having an external safety matter if it's in a holster?

David Armstrong
April 27, 2009, 06:20 PM
Why would you add more fine motor skill activity to an already stressful situation?
Most consider racking the slide as a gross motor skill, not a fine motor skill.
You have no clue what may be out there if you every have to defend yourself.
But defending yourself is not the only issue with CCW. Some have other concerns and issues besides the very narrow and rare quick draw to shoot the BG situation. There have been some pretty good threads here on that if you want to do a search.

Bob F.
April 27, 2009, 07:07 PM
I assume PanamaJane is a female, probably fairly young and new to CCW. Maybe she carries off-body. I notice she's not reposted. Hope we haven't scared her off!

Stay safe.
Bob

PS: I confess i didn't read all the replies!

Kyo
April 27, 2009, 07:12 PM
guymontag- What I said was if she is uncomfortable carrying one in the chamber and thinks she will have an unintended discharge, she could get a gun with an external safety, which would make glocks not a viable option. I am not saying anything bad about the gun, just that it doesn't fit what she is looking for in my view.

armsmaster270
April 27, 2009, 07:18 PM
PanamaJane Please respond to your post we would love to help you but were flying in the blind with no feedback from you, we don't bite and are happy to help you.

jfrey123
April 27, 2009, 08:02 PM
I Smell Troll!!!

BlueTrain
April 28, 2009, 06:36 AM
I'd like to interject a few more points to this thread before it gets locked down, even if it has sometimes strayed from the original topic.

A few posts back there was mention of gross motor skills and fine motor skills. A basic disagreement about chamber empty versus cocked and locked is the relatively difficulty of the gun handling of one method over the other and here I mean upon drawing the pistol. I am afraid that proponents of one method over the other may be guilty of assuming away the problems of their chosen method (or John Browning's method, if that is the case) and assuming the ease and logic of the advantages of said method. I do the same things all the time.

Maybe we should look over some basic assumptions.

One, which is only sometimes mentioned, is how necessary is a one-handed fast draw, never mind that you are then expected to use two hands for actually firing. That is, what is the likelyhood of it be required? And if ever so, would you even be fast enough to beat the clock?

Two, it is implied that with training, you can overcome certain supposedly natural tendencies with regards to handling firearms, like keeping your finger off the trigger, unless you're going to fire the pistol, which is why you drew the thing from the holster to begin with. Well, maybe, even probably. But is it logical?

Three, the ideal of fine motor control being required to rack the slide is interesting but what about working the thumb safety? Have you fitted your pistol with an oversized thumb safety? The early ones were really flat, don't know why, that's just the way JMB thought they should be, maybe. I don't know. Again it boils down to an assumption of how easy the thumb safety is to use. Boy, don't those Glocks sound better all the time? Anything beats those safeties that work backwards, like the little Walthers and the big Berettas.

Alas, no matter how it is carried, you still have to practice a little, unless you believe you need to practice a lot.

Brian10
May 14, 2009, 04:06 PM
To answer the question of what children have to do with carrying loaded...

It's the fear of an accident happening. And in this case, that accident is somehow having your gun available to your child. You can say you would never let that happen, but you know it does happen, you see it on the news.

Most children are strong enough to pull the trigger, but not strong enough or have the knowledge to rack the slide.

And that is why.

QBall45
May 14, 2009, 06:35 PM
Here's how I see it...

If you are concerned about one in the pipe with your Glock...training as stated before in required for you.

You could pick up a gun that acctually has a manual safty. This may help ease your mind.

I carry a 1911 cocked and locked and find no issue messing around with my 4 kids. Play ball rolling around on the floor etc. not an issue. I key for me is that I am very confortable with my gun. My youngest 2 are girls and sometines complain when sitting with me in the recliner.. They fuss about being jabbed in the butt. I think that this has been my only issue with a gun and kids.

Lastly... this has been stated already...how are you planning to launch a round down the tube while holding on to your little one with one hand and the gun in the other? If I were you I would really think this through. Practice this with a large doll in your weak hand and rack the slide with only one hand.

Hope this idea helps a little bit.

glock06
May 17, 2009, 06:52 PM
I don't have any gun around the house not secured. Even secured they have no round chambered. My children would have to unsecure the weapon and rack the side to cause problems.

On my person carrying concealed I am chamber loaded so that I may one hand the weapon. The concept of having to two hand a weapon just doesn't appeal to me. I do also carry chamber empty when at the range shooting with a belted holster. I only charge the gun when ready to shoot. It's just the way I shoot. Seen friends have too many problems .

The only time I violate the above the "we're late, we're late" scenario with the wife screaming in my ear. Then I admit I grab a Glock with a clipdraw and stick it empty chamber IWB. No way am I sticking a chambered Glock in my britches. Stupid-yes, and not how I usually carry but better than being unarmed.Do I practice an empty chamber draw, racking the slide? Yup, a bit, but whether I could do it if TSHTF I dunno--.

I just need to get the wife more disciplined and consistent-right??:):):)

MLeake
May 18, 2009, 01:25 AM
If you are going to carry with an empty chamber, and you don't assume that you will always have both hands immediately available in time of need (injury; carrying something you can't just drop, like a small child; partial immobilization by bad guy who caught you off guard; a number of things could take away use of one of your hands, if only temporarily) then you should learn how to chamber a round with one hand, as a backup to Israeli method or whatever other draw-and-chamber method you learn for two hands.

With a G36, this will involve hooking the rear sights on some surface, and pressing the pistol forward. The surface could be the heel or sole of a shoe, the edge of a belt, the edge of a table - pretty much anything that will have enough edge to grab on the sights, and enough rigidity to not simply bend or break around them.

FWIW, I sometimes have to carry condition 3 in military applications. However, personal CCW a round is always chambered.

On another note, I saw an interesting Russian holster on a show the other night; it wraps around the slide of the pistol and grasps it under tension. The pistol is not fully encased. The shooter grasps the grip, and shoves the pistol straight down. The holster has enough tension to hold the slide back as the pistol is drawn, so that when it finally releases the slide comes forward and chambers a round. Apparently, this is what the Spetznaz use for the Makarov. I don't know if there is anything similar available for the Glock.

Cheers,
M

glock06
May 18, 2009, 06:52 PM
The idea of cocking the weapon by hanging the rear sight and pushing down appeals to me--

It is always better to have the ability to one hand a weapon due to the reasons you specified. Your other extremity may be injured or useless.

Thanks much for the ideas!! I will practice racking the slide one handed off my belt or pocket. The clipdraw would even help off a pocket. A man's gotta have options!!!

Housezealot
May 19, 2009, 11:39 AM
I know this is stricly "piece of mind" but the grip safety (sorry if thats the wrong term) on my XD makes me feel a lot better than carrying a striker operated weapon without one around my kids. just my .02 cents though

KChen986
May 19, 2009, 04:52 PM
I occasionally carry my 1911 in my cargo pocket, as a result, if someone's sitting across from me, I'm uncomfortable with a hot weapon pointing in their direction.

To put it another way, being trained all these years in muzzle discipline, it's uncomfortable to have a weapon in condition 1 pointing at a friend. Hence, I'm more comfortable with cond. 3 carry.

Definitely lose the advantage of speed though...

I'd surmise that it'd be better to evaluate your surroundings as you see fit and carry accordingly. Where i'm carrying is relatively safe, so I do not worry about having to immediately have a weapon ready (maybe it's not a good judgment call on my part so, YMMV)

eriadoc
May 19, 2009, 11:48 PM
Have you considered carrying a revolver? There's no slide to worry about and failure drills consist of pulling the trigger again.

David Armstrong
May 20, 2009, 10:44 AM
I'd surmise that it'd be better to evaluate your surroundings as you see fit and carry accordingly. Where i'm carrying is relatively safe, so I do not worry about having to immediately have a weapon ready (maybe it's not a good judgment call on my part so, YMMV)
There is the key to it. What is your situation, what are your concerns and issues, those define what carry mode is most advantageous to you.

glock06
May 20, 2009, 11:11 AM
I occasionally carry a 5 shot revolver when the environment is "safer" and folks congregate.An example would be church,etc. Do I ever NOT carry in these places? Nope--

Probably bad logic and rationalization but this is the way I justify a firearm with a low round count and limited distance capabilities. Contrare if I am out in crowds or around public cash businesses I carry the Glock with an extra mag.

Be my luck if THSHTF I will not have the Glock. But that's the risk you take--

armsmaster270
May 20, 2009, 11:48 AM
I ALWAYS carry a Sig 226 (no safety) and a S&W 340PD as a BUG wherever I go even to the commissary and PX. My guns are always loaded as were my fathers, I have 3 children who grew up without bullet holes in them or their surroundings and know how to respect firearms and how to handle them.

NavyLT
May 20, 2009, 12:46 PM
I ALWAYS carry a Sig 226 (no safety) and a S&W 340PD as a BUG wherever I go even to the commissary and PX.

I still wonder why people are so willing to admit to committing felonies on the internet. Oh well.

David Armstrong
May 20, 2009, 01:56 PM
I still wonder why people are so willing to admit to committing felonies on the internet. Oh well.
Yep, makes it awfully hard to talk about honest, law-abiding gun owners when so many regularly say they are not honest or law-abiding.

NavyLT
May 20, 2009, 03:35 PM
Yep, makes it awfully hard to talk about honest, law-abiding gun owners when so many regularly say they are not honest or law-abiding.

Dave,

I respectfully must disagree with you. He was honest. He was honest about not being law abiding :D

MLeake
May 20, 2009, 04:44 PM
You know, I have friends who carry their sidearms on Fort Bragg all the time. They are Fayetteville police officers, and are authorized by the base to do so. Just saying, armsmaster270 may not be talking about felonies at all.

Of course, there are decent odds that he is. But he might actually be ok to carry on base. Some people are.