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RangeLogger
April 20, 2009, 12:21 PM
"You practice for the real world. The range is not just about sending small projectiles at a piece of paper."

The link below is to a Blog topic on the importance of training for REAL LIFE.

http://www.rangelog.com/Community/TheRangeLogBlog/tabid/413/EntryID/13/Default.aspx

Brit
April 20, 2009, 12:59 PM
RangeL

Interesting topic, b/4 I ever shot IPSC or later IDPA I spent forever shooting Bullseye, the one hand gun, and the off hand in the pants pocket.

ISU was a gun at 45 degrees start, slow fire, timed, and rapid fire.
When shooting either of the action sports, there were times when the the target(s) could be shot with less strain to the upper body, if they were engaged one handed, low and behold, most likely because of my years of one hand shooting, I noticed I was real quick, and accurate. In fact it is way easier to swing side to side with one hand than two.

IMHO this is a good skill to cultivate for "Real world encounters" as sometimes the off hand is otherwise engaged. Just my 2c.

Housezealot
April 20, 2009, 01:05 PM
I have target shot all my life and have not practiced extensivley for the situation of a home intruder, that being said I have only pointed a gun at another human being once in my life (and hopefully it stays that way)
to make a long story short what happened went down quickly and I had a very drunk maintence guy, that had no buisness being in my apartment let alone my bedroom @ 6:00 am with no knock or announcment, running from my apartment, I belive that the reason that I was
A) able to have a pistol trained on him immediately
B) didn't panick and squeeze of a shot
had everything to do with my familiarity with my weapon and nothing do with
practiced drills. I may be wrong but IMHO most of us will never be in a "fire fight" and familiarity with your weapon is everything.

michael t
April 22, 2009, 03:07 PM
I have always wondred how did the police kill or wound all those bad guys for years with only a 6 shot wheel gun and 1 handed shooting . They didn't seem to need 15 rounds for a couple of hits NewYork City PD has went up in shots fired per hit since they went to hicap auto. and I sure same in most cities if a real study was ever done.
Remember in old days only training was the basic 1 hand bulleye shooting slow and rapid fire. Might be they learned trigger control and sighting back then. In stead of the two hand flash a sight picture and fire till empty We seem to see today, To many officer shootings with to many rounds fired and to many misses . Just wondering I still belive 6 to 8 rounds is enough in a pistol.

Hellbilly5000
April 22, 2009, 04:11 PM
Most LEO will only hit a target an average of 30% of the time. Thats not say that all LEO are bad shots. I did how ever speak with an Austin LEO the other day and he admitted to me that he was trying to shoot a raccoon the other day and he had to empty his glock to hit it.

firsttimefirearms123
April 23, 2009, 08:10 AM
Has anyone ever used simunition for a live fire exercise? I was able to get training using Navy sim rounds (filled with paint - hurt like hell but don't maim). It was eye-opening to realize how stress can degrade your skills.

I stood five feet away from another shooter and we nearly unloaded our wepaons into each other. When we checked for paint marks, we found NONE. That was over 10 missed shots between the two of us and we had just come off a range where we hit the center of the paper everytime. It made me more aware of the fact that the range is not always a "real world" situation.

bds32
April 23, 2009, 08:12 AM
I agree with the premise of the blogger's argument. The range shouldn't be just a place to punch holes in a paper. Unfortunately for some, it is due to strict range rules. But if you have the chance, you should practice the things that could happen such as one handed shooting, support hand shooting, different shooting positions, moving laterally, malfunction drills, one hand reloads, and use of cover. Nothing wrong with spending alot of time on the fundamentals of shooting such as trigger control, grip, sight alignment, but don't forget about the fundamentals of gunfighting.

bds32
April 23, 2009, 08:25 AM
Has anyone ever used simunition for a live fire exercise?

I have done quite a bit of training with Simunitions over my career as an LEO. When you first start out with them, it is as close as you can be to gunfighting. My personal experience with it is: When my opponent was shooting at me, my focus was completely on him (both eyes open) and not my own sights. I tended to move very quickly and laterally, seeking cover, when taking fire. These are definitely not revelations but did help me understand the dynamics a little better. I still extensively shoot using the front sight at any distances longer than five yards knowing full well that I may not see it in a real gunfight.

firsttimefirearms123
May 1, 2009, 08:31 PM
bds32 - that is a good point. Some range and dry fire exercises are as much about working through your non-firearms/stress related issues. Little things, like walking with your eyes trained at a point in the distance, do not come to mind until the first time you are in that situation. I was glad that I had an opportunity to learn some of my weaknesses in a simulation and not the "real" thing.

stilettosixshooter
May 1, 2009, 10:46 PM
I did how ever speak with an Austin LEO the other day and he admitted to me that he was trying to shoot a raccoon the other day and he had to empty his glock to hit it.

On the other hand, when they had that three-guy shootout in North Austin a few months ago, it was a rookie Austin LE that took out a kevlar-sporting BG with 1 headshot :eek:

I'm looking forward to my "real life training" - the NRA "Personal Protection in the Home" 8-hour tactical training course. And plan to start practicing at the range one-handed, weak-handed, etc. shooting. Knowing that I only have six bullets in my HD revolver makes me very conscious about the need to put each one to good use, no matter what situation I find myself in!

csmsss
May 3, 2009, 09:46 AM
I think it's regrettable, but there simply is no training exercise that can prepare you for the situation of being fired upon, nor for pointing your firearm at another human being and pulling the trigger. You either have a cool head under such ultimately stress and fear-filled situations, or you don't, and no amount of simulation can change that. Courage and clearheadedness under extreme fear of death cannot be coached.

BillCA
May 3, 2009, 11:02 AM
Knowing that I only have six bullets in my HD revolver makes me very conscious about the need to put each one to good use, no matter what situation I find myself in!

One of my bedside guns is often a six-shooter because I'm most comfortable with that. With only a 15-foot hallway approaching my bedroom, the intruder is likely to catch three rounds of .38 +P Gold Dots or SXT's right away. Then, like the shampoo bottle says - lather, rinse, repeat.

Just remember that the sheetrock in your house is unlikely to stop even .38 +P ammo. That can pose a problem for family members, but more importantly, it can pose a problem for an intruder who relies on a corner for protection.

GojuBrian
May 3, 2009, 01:35 PM
You just can't train for everything. I agree with the poster who said familiarity with the weapon is most important. I don't see the point of spending hours on end working on scenarios that probably won't ever happen. Even if something similar happens you can't properly simulate adrenaline, tunnel vision,etc...

As a lifelong martial artist I've trained and ran through tons of scenarios. Armed? Multiples? Kids involved? Where am I? etc....Endless!!! I figured out it's best just to be able to do a few things best than alot of things good or ok. A smaller skillset is the best weapon to have.
Learn to use your weapon and have your weapon with you, that's your best chance, if even you ever need it.

James K
May 3, 2009, 10:09 PM
Michael t wrote, "have always wondred how did the police kill or wound all those bad guys for years with only a 6 shot wheel gun and 1 handed shooting."

The quick and dirty answer is that 1) most gunfights were at arms' length ranges, and 2) the cops mostly couldn't hit anything much beyond that. Most police never fired their weapons off the range, and then only as much as absolutely necessary to qualify, if the department even required qualification. Most small departments had no range and no qualification requirement. Officers had to furnish guns and ammo and some departments didn't even have a standard. In one small department around 1950, I remember seeing police with an S&W .38 M&P, an S&W .32 breaktop, a Walther PP war souvenir, a .44-40 Colt NS, and a Colt .32 M1903.

Even in larger departments, police often had cartridges turn green in their belts; they were never cleaned and probably could not have been removed. Today, with federal funds and more ex-military in police forces, things have changed a lot (not always for the better when police consider accidentally shooting a few civilians "collateral damage").

Today, I think police are better armed and more capable with their weapons than ever, but I still see too many police who consider the gun a burden and don't practice any more than necessary.

Jim

Kyo
May 3, 2009, 10:21 PM
if I could afford a class for 500 bucks or 1000 bucks like the rogers school of shooting, I would do it! In the meantime, I will dry fire to my heart's content, read up all the books I can, watch the vid's and practice until I am tired and then practice some more. The whole goal is to be able to do the stuff at an almost unconscious level, meaning without thinking twice about it.

Hellbilly5000
May 3, 2009, 10:56 PM
Stiletto I am saying that all leo can't shoot but the vast majority of them do not shoot on a regular basis. I will admit I am lucky if I get to range once a month (it has been a long while due to lack of affordable 9mm ammo) and I used to shoot about 4 times a week a few years ago

BillCA
May 4, 2009, 12:24 AM
You just can't train for everything. I agree with the poster who said familiarity with the weapon is most important. I don't see the point of spending hours on end working on scenarios that probably won't ever happen. Even if something similar happens you can't properly simulate adrenaline, tunnel vision,etc...
You're correct... and not correct.

You can't properly simulate the physilogical effects of that moment of terror when you realize that not only has the spam has hit the fan, but it's coming at you. To that end, for more realistic evaluations of your shooting ablity, some agencies make the officer run a distance (440, 1/2 mile, etc), then drag the 140 lb dummy 50 feet before stepping up to the firing line. If you're not in good shape, it'll show up in your scores. But it is a lot more realistic as you get an idea of how your motor skills deteriorate.

One doesn't have to practice a great deal for odd situations. Though, it is good to practice weak-hand shooting every outing so you develop the same kind of eye-hand coordination. Or at least get the muscles used to doing something other than carrying your coat.

Other things I suggest people do -- with an empty gun and in private :eek: -- is practice drawing while seated, how to fire from the car seat (without tangling up in the steering wheel), draw from an office chair (with arms), shoot and reload with the weak hand only and single hand clearance drills. The time to work out good solutions is when you aren't under life and death pressures. This way, you have a plan in the event you need to use your off hand.

Yeah, a lot of "coppers" succeeded in using only a six-gun and basic training to get through 20 or 30 years. But also remember a lot of them died in the line of duty too. Tools, techniques and training are much better today. It's not the gun that counts so much as the little grey cells between the ears.

armedandsafe
May 4, 2009, 02:08 PM
Our local Sheriff has a saying he uses on his Deputies.

"You can shoot to stop or you can shoot to lock. Which do you think wil give you better results?"

Pops

Deaf Smith
May 4, 2009, 06:45 PM
"You can shoot to stop or you can shoot to lock. Which do you think wil give you better results?"

Sounds like he didn't like spray-n-pray. Good for him.

fastbolt
May 5, 2009, 01:52 PM
As with many things in life ...

If you want casual results, invest casual effort.

I've seen far too many examples of this philosophy at work in both martial arts and firearms training.

Serious results and demonstrable benefits seem more likely to result from serious investment of personal effort and commitment.

That's just my thoughts, though ...

timothy75
May 9, 2009, 07:16 AM
I agree that you cant train for every scenario. I also acknowledge some scerarios might be easier than other to keep a cool head throughout. While firing upon an unknowing home intruder would be much easier to remember front site press, then waking up already having been stabbed twice, or finding yourself in a gunfight already having been shot and trying to make a smooth consistant draw. Through planning however I think we should try to minimize the effort in carrying out the task. And I think our best defense might not be range related at all. I'm not saying set claymores in your hallway, but do give yourself every advantage and aknowledge the possibilty.

armsmaster270
May 9, 2009, 12:13 PM
General range rules in use while other people are at the range severly handicaps a defensive shooter I don't agree with the two second rule some ranges have so when I want to really practice I go to the boonies or rent the city range for 1/2 a day.

Brit
May 9, 2009, 07:00 PM
The most pucker factor inducing call. Domestic! You need to be able to look at what is required in that call "Domestic" if in the kitchen, lots of knives at the very least.

Average range in a shot required incident, 7 yds max? If you can not hit an eye socket sized target (2" circle?) with a static target, duty ammunition, duty pistol, why not?

You might need to check on that. On a safe range. No danger, just the cool headed shot fired. Jumping up and down for a minute, try again, 2" circle.