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orchidhunter
April 19, 2009, 06:13 PM
Canned hunting is the killing of an animal in an enclosure, with no chance of escape, in order to obtain a trophy. It is big business in Texas, where some ranchers find the provision of guaranteed kills to hunters willing to pay a premium price to shoot "exotic" animals to be more lucrative than cattle. Whether the "hunt" takes place on a fenced ranch or involves simply shooting into a cage, the target animals have no place to run and no place to hide. Often, the animals are tame and do not know to run from humans. On a typical hunting ranch operation, the animals are fed at a specific time and location. They learn to recognize the sound of the landowner's vehicle as it approaches with food. On the day of a hunt, the owner's vehicle will arrive with hunters instead of food; a kill is thus guaranteed. The price a hunter pays is pre-set for a given trophy animal; if that specific species is not presented as promised, the hunter's money is to be refunded. We have heard of no refunds.




Ranchers usually specialize in the provision of either native species (deer, peccary or javelina, small mammals and birds) or "exotic" species (non-native antelope, deer, boar, sheep, etc.). The animals found on game farms and hunting ranches come from several sources. Some are zoo surplus. Zoo directors must find ways to attract a public and it is well known that baby animals on display sell tickets. In order to make room for new arrivals, older animals are sold as surplus. While AZA-accredited zoos are prohibited from selling directly to hunting ranches, they are permitted to sell to animal dealers, who may then sell to individual collectors, roadside zoos and hunting ranches. The Animal Finder's Guide, a catalog for the underground trade in exotic animals, lists animals from macaques to camels for sale to anyone with cash to buy. It also advertises exotic animal auctions, another prime source of animals for canned hunting operations.

TX Parks and Wildlife, a state agency, sponsors canned hunts on private lands. For a $10 entry fee, a hunter can enter a lottery to participate in a "Big Time Texas Hunt" on a hunting ranch. Offered are opportunities to kill deer, antelope, hogs, alligators and "varmints." TX Parks and Wildlife also receives funding through the Texas Parks and Wildlife Foundation, created to provide additional monies for the purchase of private ranches for use by TPW for public hunts.

There is no federal law governing canned hunting operations. The Animal Welfare Act does not regulate game preserves, hunting preserves or canned hunts. The Endangered Species Act does not prohibit private ownership of endangered animals and even allows for the hunting of endangered species with the appropriate permit.

Is this sport? Canned hunting is cruel and unfair; the animals haven't got a chance when facing high-tech firearms and archery equipment in a confined space. Write to your Congressional Representative and Senators today and ask them to reintroduce the bill to ban canned hunts. orchidhunter

wyobohunter
April 19, 2009, 06:23 PM
I'm just not all fired up against it either. Maybe if we had that here and I saw it personally I'd care more. How is this worse than raising cattle or hogs for slaughter with a bolt gun?

I'd feel pretty silly hanging one of those "trophies" on my wall but to each his own.

hogdogs
April 19, 2009, 06:27 PM
Orchid, What do think the ratio of success is on those texas "canned hunts"? I am not sure if you know this but at 1 sq. mile to acres a 4,000 acre ranch is 6.25 square miles. Just how tame do you think these deer are? A canned hunt is walking down the meat aisle at the local piggly wiggly or other grocery store.
Granted, I understand some places are as small as 300 acres and that may qualify as a "canned" hunt but I know far too many who have come home empty handed to feel it is shooting fish in a barrel.
Brent

wyobohunter
April 19, 2009, 06:31 PM
I am now not one bit against it. I still wouldn't do it for $$$ reasons, but I wouldn't give anybody else crap for doing it.

pietskiet
April 19, 2009, 06:40 PM
i am glad it was out lawed in sa a few years back. It is unfair and unsporting!

bigthrills
April 19, 2009, 06:40 PM
Yeah my aunts friends husband goes to africa and he said they chase the african game into a corner with vehicles and then shot and he calls himself a hunter. the only part i dont agree with is the getting the game used to the sound of the vehicle with food that takes the fun out of it

orchidhunter
April 19, 2009, 07:03 PM
hogdogs, " What do think the ratio of success is on those texas "canned hunts"? The succes rate on most of the canned hunts is 100%, most are no kill, no pay. orchidhunter

wyobohunter
April 19, 2009, 07:06 PM
You didn't answer my question. How this more wrong than raising animals for slaughter/sale to market?

hogdogs
April 19, 2009, 07:06 PM
Actually a few are 100% no slay no pay...
I know many if not most have a fee no matter what and then if you kill, you pay a high price for the critter.
One guy I know of pays near 3-5K if he kills and and over 1,500 if he don't. That is total outlay including fuel and meals to drive etc... No alcohol though as he don't drink.
Brent

orchidhunter
April 19, 2009, 07:26 PM
wyobohunter, It's the same thing, they are raising animals for slaughter/sale to market. I know a place in East Tn. you can kill a polar bear, if you will pay the price. orchidhunter

banditt007
April 19, 2009, 07:52 PM
I have no problem with it (though would never partake) provided a few things are adhered to:

-the animals are treated humanely and are given a large space to live, properly care, food, living conditions ect

-the shooter at least has the ability to place his shot correctly and uses a suitable weapon.

I do not believe it is hunting, its just shooting like killing a farm pig. I would never do it even if i could afford it. I would not feel proud of the kill, and don't understand how anyone else could. there was no real hunt, and the animal no matter what size area, technically could never get away from you. I would definitely laugh at someone that told of a 'trophy' they 'hunted' in such a manner. but like i said, if the animals have been treated right, and a high degree of effort is taken to provide a fast clean kill, have at it. but it isn't and i'm sure ever will be, my cup of tea.

flyboy14
April 19, 2009, 08:28 PM
Can't say that I would do it, but, I don't see a reason to say someone else can't. Where do we draw the line? The hamburger you eat at mc????? gets a pneumatic hammer to the skull, does that make you want to write your congressman? flyboy

Telgriff
April 20, 2009, 01:43 AM
I don't even see the point in it.

If you cant hunt, then don't. The canned hunt in my eyes is just a zero effort shooting gallery with live animals.

It makes me think of the big tanks (basically an above ground swimming pool) full of fish at the boat shows and so on here. Catch a fish where the density is so high you cant see the bottom of the tank 6 feet below.

Huey Long
April 20, 2009, 02:15 AM
There is no federal law governing canned hunting operations.

Nor should there be; canned hunting has absolutely nothing to do with interstate commerce.

Those who oppose canned hunting should be directing their arguments to their state legislatures and not to Congress. In fact, many states already ban canned hunting.

Dr. Strangelove
April 20, 2009, 02:48 AM
If you don't like it, then don't participate in a "canned hunt", but trying to force your opinion on others who may not share your views isn't the way to go. I don't want to go on one (a canned hunt) myself, but why is it any different from walking up to a cow in a field and shooting it? That's not illegal, and if I want to get my steaks and ground beef that way it's better than buying them from the meat-case and pretending it's made in a factory somewhere. It's certainly not hunting, but it's not some sort of criminal activity, either. Shoot the animal humanely and use it for something - dinner, wall mount, whatever.

freakintoguns
April 20, 2009, 02:53 AM
Orchid, i look at it like this: you dont like it? dont do it. kinda like abortion, or gay marriage, or any of the thousands of other useless things people worry about, besides worrying about there GD selfs.im not a cigarette smoker, but far be it from me to tell people that because i dont smoke they cant either. im not that hiugh and mighty. i fell off that horse around the age of 6

VaFisher
April 20, 2009, 06:10 AM
Orchid, I am not going to meantion any names but there is a place for this kind of hunt. I went to one of the decent size ranches and they had smaller fenced off area's that had some buffalo, Elk, Black Buck and Hogs. I did not hunt in those area's myself but did see a guy that could hardly breath being driven up by a guide and he did shoot two of the large Buffalo leaning on the truck while being held up by his wife and guide so he would not fall, all this took about 15 min to get this guy in place. This guy's last wish was to go Buffalo hunting and this was the only way he could have done this being he was next to death so his wife purchased for him and drove him there because he could not fly in his condition.
I personally would not get any satisfaction or would I do this type of hunt but glad I saw for myself how some good could come from this type of operation and feel there are more reasons more then likely if we think about it.

orchidhunter
April 20, 2009, 07:52 AM
Huey Long, Because of the interstate trafficking of exotic animals to supply these canned hunting operations, it is fitting and appropriate for the Congress to crack down on these operations. orchidhunter

jdscholer
April 20, 2009, 08:28 AM
I've done about the same thing on bird hunt clubs. You go and pay for how many and what kind of birds ya want to have planted; they get them from a pen and put them out while you wait and drink coffee.

When all is in place, you take your dog, kid, camera (create your own scenario) and go "huntin".

No, it is not "real hunting" in my book but it does get the dog on some birds, and he and the kids love it. Success is not 100%, and it hurts to see a 25 dollar rooster disappear into the sunset to become coyote supper. It does have it's place. jd

Art Eatman
April 20, 2009, 09:01 AM
Some years back, the word got out in Texas about a canned hunt of an aged African lion, with video. The uproar from everybody--with hunters in the forefront--had near-instantaneous, unanimous outlawing of such by the legislature. "Free-ranging" hunting, only, in Texas.

"Guarantee": If you're halfway healthy and a reasonably good shot, I've seen ranches where I could take you out and guarantee you a shot on a decent buck--and I've never claimed to be a hunting guide. A person who lives on a ranch and knows the terrain and the critters' patterns can get a shot for anybody. Same deal for the elk-hunting folks on wide-open federal land in the west.

If you build a stand near a food plot or a feeder, you've pretty much guaranteed yourself a Bambi dinner. The commercial hunting ranches do it for you. But that has nothing to do with a "canned hunt".

So: "Canned hunting is the killing of an animal in an enclosure...It is big business in Texas..."

That is factually incorrect.

"The animals found on game farms and hunting ranches come from several sources. Some are zoo surplus."

Again, not so insofar as zoos and hunted animals. There are exotics, but they are relatively few and are free-ranging insofar as the hunting. Nilghai on the King and Yturria ranches south of Kingsville. Axis deer all over the west-central Hill Country. Blackbuck antelope on several ranches, again, free-ranging.

And now, about 25 Ibex in the east pasture of the O2 Ranch south of Alpine; the pasture is about 100,000 acres. (The west pasture is some 200,000 acres.)

"TX Parks and Wildlife, a state agency, sponsors canned hunts on private lands."

That is an out-and-out lie. There is no other word which can be used.

orchidhunter, I don't know where you ran across this propaganda, but it has nothing to do with hunting in Texas. It's a bunch of irrelevant facts with the words twisted into a propaganda piece. It's the sort of drivel used by anti-hunting people to sucker the ignorant.

Please do yourself a favor and learn something about the subject before passing on agenda-driven lies and twisting of reality into things which just are not so.

Art

orchidhunter
April 20, 2009, 09:56 AM
The Story of Fred the Pig

Fred was raised as a family pet. He grew up in the Alabama hill country on the farm of Phil and Rhonda Blissitt. Phil had given Fred to his wife for a Christmas present, and he was fed and pampered as a dog or cat would be.

But Fred wasn't a dog or cat. He was a domestic pig, and when he grew up, the Blissitts, whom Fred had learned to think of as his family, sold him to the Lost Creek Plantation, a nearby "hunting preserve".

Fred was longer than nine feet long and weighed half a ton. Since Lost Creek charges $1.25 a pound for what they call (inaccurately, in Fred's case) "feral meat hogs," the operators figured to make more than a thousand dollars on Fred.

They turned him loose in a 150-acre fenced enclosure, from which Fred had no chance of escape. On May 3, they sent paying customers Mike Stone and his 11-year-old son, Jamison, into the enclosure to hunt him down.

A Slow Death

Fred had never been wild, and he had never been hunted. People had always been his friends. They had fed him, rubbed his snout, and brought him treats. When he saw Jamison approaching with a pistol, he may have been curious, but nothing more. Then Jamison shot him.

During the pursuit, Jamison shot Fred a total of eight times. Jamison's father and two guides had high-powered rifles and could apparently have dispatched Fred a number of times during the chase. But they held their fire and let Fred suffer pain and fear for three long hours before Jamison finally succeeded in ending his misery.

Violating Ethics, If Not The Law

This is the true face of canned hunts. A tame animal, trapped inside a fenced pen, is shot multiple times over several hours. The publicity generated by the size of the pig—which might have been a world record had Fred actually been the wild boar he was advertised to be—and some outstanding investigative reporting by Bran Strickland, sports editor of the Anniston Star, lifted the curtain of secrecy in which canned hunts are shrouded and revealed what they really are: cruelty for cash, death for dollars. In Fred's death, as with all the victims of canned hunts, there was neither sport nor sportsmanship.

Last year, Alabama enacted legislation that bans the hunting of tame animals when victim does not have a reasonable chance to escape. Fred was tame, and he had no chance to escape at all. The HSUS asked the Alabama Department of Wildlife and Conservation to investigate what, based on the press reports, appears to be a clear violation of state law. It is certainly a violation of the hunters' code of ethics, fair chase and simple human decency.

Unfortunately, the agency would not act, because Fred was not a game animal—he was a pet. orchidhunter

grymster2007
April 20, 2009, 10:23 AM
I always imagine one of those pony-ride style carousels and the big bad hunter guy standing 15 feet away with his 375 H&H, gruffly telling his "guide" that no; he's not gonna shoot the blind zebra, he's gonna wait for the three legged tiger to come back around.

Hirlau
April 20, 2009, 10:39 AM
Quote from freakintoguns:"Orchid, i look at it like this: you dont like it? dont do it. kinda like abortion, or gay marriage, or any of the thousands of other useless things people worry about, besides worrying about there GD selfs"

Easy to stick you head in the sand and not interact with the issues of life!:)
Easy, that is, until abortion, gay marriage is dropped at your feet by your children; having been indoctrinated/exposed to it at school. What's your answer to them, freakintoguns;"..you don't like it; don't do it"?

They are useless, unimportant issues; until they come knocking at your door.;)

My on topic question would be; How has canned hunts ( falsely reported or not) effected the participation in hunting itself? How many newcomers have been turned away by this type of activity?

FrontSight
April 20, 2009, 10:39 AM
Orchid, you site the HSUS??!! Do you even realize they are the equivalent of PETA?? A rabid anti hunting "animal rights" organization, whole ultimate goal is to see all hunting, fishing, horeback riding, meat eating, rodeos, etc ended forver??

Even their name "the human society of the united states" is a lie, as they have no govt afiliation whatsoever.

Careful who you align yourself with; those guys despise us all and want to end what we love most!

wyobohunter
April 20, 2009, 11:11 AM
That was a saaaad story. I'm going right out to sell my guns and buy a violin. Then of course I'll donat the leftover money to PETA. I think you're looking in the wrong place for support.

L_Killkenny
April 20, 2009, 02:04 PM
What out and out dribble and lies. My lord. I can't believe someone on here actually bought into their line of crap. I have some tropical land in Canada to sell ya. Wow.

Buzzcook
April 20, 2009, 03:22 PM
Canned hunts are way too expensive. While I love game animals, I'd find it very difficult to spend more money shooting an animal than buying a whole Kobi beef already butchered and wrapped.

The main ethical question is the clean humane kill. I suppose to a lesser degree you could question the ethics of calling an animal shot in such a hunt a "trophy" animal.

Barring those concerns I don't see canned hunts as much different to hunting over bait, or as I do on farms and orchards.

There is an argument to be made that canned hunts are more humane than hunting in the wild, because wounded animals don't escape only to suffer and die from their wounds.

To end where I started; there is a balance between hunting as a sport and hunting as a means to fill the freezer. Imho once you reach a point where shooting your own game cost more than a bunch of prime quality beef and the freezer to put it in, you're in goofy territory.

Tucker 1371
April 20, 2009, 03:38 PM
I really don't know much about this but I do think the canned hunts where the animal is shot in a cage or let out of a cage right under the hunter's nose is absolutely wrong. There needs to be some chance for failure for the hunter.

I also didn't know HSUS was as whacko as PETA, I probably could've guessed though.

I think there should be a minimum size on the enclosure a hunted animal may be kept in. Everything else is at the moral discretion of the hunter.

freakintoguns
April 20, 2009, 06:19 PM
if my daughter gets knocked up and watns to havea abortion who am i to stop her? id rather her give the baby up for adioption of course, but in the end it is her choice and i support that 100% same with a gay child. they want to get married? fine so be it, get married. will i be haoppy with there lifestyle choice? hell no. will i be happy that they are happy and healthy? 100% absolutely yes. will i participate ina "canned hunt" no, not my cup of tea, will i look down on someone for doing it? nope sure wont. live and let live. people need to start doing that again. dont worry what others do, worry what you do. if that concept is to hard for you to do, then im sorry for you sir.

longrange08
April 20, 2009, 07:43 PM
All I Know Is Ive Busted My A@@ For Years Setting Stands Looking At Sign And Sitting My Fat A@@ In The Cold Windy Rain To Finally This Year Get A 150" Mature Whitetail And I Wouldnt Trade It For Any 300" Non Typical Shot On Any Game Farm. Its More To Me Than Just Rack Size. And Any Healthy Man Who Goes To Shoot A "tied Up Or Tame" Animal For Any Other Reason Than To Feed His Family Is A Pu**y Who Doesnt Have The Balls To Go Do It The Real Way. That Being Said I Believe We All Have Different Morals And Ethics And If Someone Else Has The Desire To Do So Go For It. If You Dont Like It Work On Changing It Or Shut Up. I Feel There Is No Worse A Man Than One Who Tries To Force His Beliefs On Others By Slamming Theirs. But I Am In Agreement That At The Very Best Its A Pu**y Thing To Do

kyle1974
April 20, 2009, 08:33 PM
what's the minimum number of acres to define a canned hunt?


there are high fence ranches in Texas larger than many of the entire counties up north....


before people go around talking about "canned", let's define it.

fisherman66
April 20, 2009, 08:40 PM
TX Parks and Wildlife, a state agency, sponsors canned hunts on private lands. For a $10 entry fee, a hunter can enter a lottery to participate in a "Big Time Texas Hunt" on a hunting ranch. Offered are opportunities to kill deer, antelope, hogs, alligators and "varmints." TX Parks and Wildlife also receives funding through the Texas Parks and Wildlife Foundation, created to provide additional monies for the purchase of private ranches for use by TPW for public hunts.

Complete and utter malarky. TPWD does not engage in canned anything.

hogdogs
April 20, 2009, 08:43 PM
Minimum 1 acre, Maximum before I feel I am in the "woods" is 50-100 depending on density... If mainly open land... Anything under 300-400... I run hogs with dogs on places as small as 75-100 with several being 100-400 acres. I assure ya that some of those will strain your skills and if you were gun hunting, a slew of hogs will come and go and unless you are tuned in you will never know they had been there.
These are fenced for the most part but nothing more than 3-4 strand barbed wire that only slows my dogs and myself... not them dern hogs!
Brent

fisherman66
April 20, 2009, 09:20 PM
Which Ranch or WMA do you refer to as a purveyor of canned hunts?

2008 - 2009 Texas Big Time Hunt Providers

* Chaparral WMA – South Texas
* Brinlee Ranch - West Texas
* Bartush Land and Cattle – Northwest Texas
* Stasney's Cook Ranch – North Texas
* Cheyenne Traders, Inc. - South Texas
* B&B Outfitters – West Texas
* The Big Woods on the Trinity – East Texas
* High Lonesome Ranch – West Texas
* Caiman Ranch - South Texas
* Elephant Mountain WMA - West Texas
* Black Gap WMA - West Texas
* Sierra Diablo WMA - West Texas
* MacGuire Ranch - West Texas
* Cheyenne Traders, Inc. - South Texas
* Mason Mountain WMA - Central Texas
* J.D. Murphree WMA - Texas Gulf Coast
* Central Flyway Outfitters - Texas Gulf Coast
* Double Harvest Waterfowlers - East Texas
* Matador WMA – Texas Panhandle
* Lonestar Outfitters - Texas Panhandle
* Central Flyway Outfitters - Texas Gulf Coast
* Mesquite Grove Ranch - Rolling Plains

Hirlau
April 20, 2009, 09:26 PM
PM sent, freakintoguns.

It's all good.

orchidhunter
April 20, 2009, 09:38 PM
fisherman66, Pretty big list for it to be, "Complete and utter malarky." orchidhunter

Art Eatman
April 20, 2009, 09:40 PM
TP&WD bought the 106,000 acres of Black Gap from Hallie Stillwell over forty years ago. It's had the 17,000-acre Elephant Mountain tract for around thirty years. Neither tract has a high fence, and generally, nothing but the old original sheep/goat fencing that a deer crosses quite casually.

A lot of the East Texas tracts are in deals with timber company tracts, commonly some 3,000 to 4,000 acres of stuff thick enough to suit HogDog. :D Again, little or no internal fencing.

I don't know who's running HSUS, now. Used to be an old boy named Wayne Pacelles. He publicly stated he was out to end all hunting, and if he became successful, he'd then go after fishing. (Interview article, Sports Afield magazine, somewhere around 1990 or thereabouts.)

Hirlau
April 20, 2009, 09:42 PM
orchidhunter,
You have just been lowered on Life's Foodchain. You been labeled a "Flowerpicker":(

What has this world come to?:confused:

Don't give up; I'll pick flowers with you anytime;)

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk73/typhoonwinds/BugFlower.gif

Art Eatman
April 20, 2009, 09:48 PM
What does "Fred the pig" have to do with anything? That story isn't even on topic for this thread!

Lessee, based on the thought process for that little vignette: There are 300 million people in the US, and one of them committed a murder. Therefore, all people of the US are murderers. One doofus killed a pet hog. Therefore all hunters are pet killing doofi. Wildlife officials said they had no authority, therefore all wildlife agencies condone pet killing.

Sorry, all I can say about that sort of illogic is, "That dog won't hunt."

hogdogs
April 20, 2009, 10:01 PM
JP Goodwin... Is one of the terrorists in the upper tier of HSUS...
http://www.hsus.org/about_us/board_and_staff/experts/experts/subject_experts_goodwin.html
http://www.activistcash.com/biography.cfm/bid/3364
http://www.furcommission.com/news/newsF03i.htm
http://en.wordpress.com/tag/jp-goodwin/
This sorry excuse of an oxygen to CO2 conversion device infiltrated a hog doggin forum me and some buddies got goin' He was actually logging in from HSUS internal server and his home. Both of which we got addresses for in some sleuthing. He was really trying to dig up scum on us even though we do not do illegal activities in regards to dogs and hunting. Then we find out about his back ground as a felon terrorist bomber!:eek:
HSUS has no connection to any "humane society" animal shelter and is fully responsible for this..
http://www.consumerfreedom.com/news_detail.cfm/headline/2833
Underhanded just like PETA stealing hunting dogs...
http://hamptonroads.com/2008/03/dogcollar-case-against-worker-peta-dismissed
although dismissed they were busted red handed...
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/article3910.html
Don't drink their kool-aid! They are not the friend of any true outdoors men!
They want all domesticated animals turned loose to die a miserable suffering death!
Brent

FrontSight
April 20, 2009, 10:03 PM
This entire thread is nothing but a PETA fostered crock of you know what.

orchidhunter
April 20, 2009, 10:05 PM
Art, Wayne Pacelle is still President & CEO of the HSUS, but the members run it, about like the members of the NRA run it. Poor Old Fred The Hog was killed on a Canned Hunt. Would it make you mad if I told the story of the YO Ranch sometime. orchidhunter

kyle1974
April 20, 2009, 10:12 PM
oh tell us the story of the YO ranch....


I'm guessing you're talking about how the schreiner family managed to come to be...:rolleyes:

you can't even define what a "canned hunt" is, much less post an original argument for one.....takes a lot of skill to cut and paste

StiveC2007
April 20, 2009, 10:37 PM
canned hunts are a joke, almost as bad as the whole remote controlled hunting that hit the media a couple years ago. it takes the whole wild out of hunting. IMO its like hunting a pet(its fed and kept in an enclosed area) worst part about it is that the animals doesnt have a way to get away and many are there for put an take hunting. and some of these animals are bred for this only and have no survival mechinism for enduring nature so they would end up dying anyways

freakintoguns
April 21, 2009, 02:46 AM
another vote for the YO Ranch story.

phil mcwilliam
April 21, 2009, 04:29 AM
You have to define what a canned hunt exactly is. I just returned "empty handed" from a weeks guided deer hunt on a cattle property that had a deer proof perimeter fence. This privately owned cattle property in South Australia spans over 400,000 acres.

butta9999
April 21, 2009, 04:32 AM
We pay to go on propeties here in Aussie land gererally 50,000+ acres. There is no gurantee of animals but hey that is where the "hunt" comes into it.... There are properties where they gurantee animals but the big fees do apply.

My mates just got back from a property in Queensland with a total of 25 pigs and a bundle of rabbits. It cost them $30 a night plus a couple boxes of fruit. They had shearer sheds, running water and freezers for there meat.

That was shooting only no dogs, if they hads dogs the numbers would have been trippled.

My best mate shot a 13 point red stag in South Australia last year cost was fuel, food and supplies.

A bloke from work just got back from New Zealand, he went for red deer. He shot a 15 pointer, cost him $4500 including airfares. Animal was not a gurantee too.

I suppose each to their own.

wyobohunter
April 21, 2009, 04:44 AM
Are you a vegetarian? If you aren't, do you only eat meat you have earned in fair chase hunting? Oh, by the way, what exactly would you consider fair chase? Until you honestly answer these questions I can't begin to take you or any silly thing you may post seriously. If you are a vegetarian at least you aren't a hypocrit, your just posting on the wrong forum.

alloy
April 21, 2009, 06:28 AM
Go walk around a poultry farm, report back. Meat doesn't pop out of thin air into your freezer. Have never done a canned hunt but i have caught trout out of a stocked stream. Poor little fishies.

ZeroJunk
April 21, 2009, 07:04 AM
I lease 1765 acres here in NC, about three miles long and not so wide. Bucks have a finger print on top of their head during hunting season. You see the same bucks in the same area. Matter of fact the bucks on one side of the lease have a fork horn type rack that you don't see on the other side. I suspect we could narrow it down in the eastern US to anything over 1000 acres fenced would be good to keep coyotes and trespassers out, but wouldn't help you much hunting. In the open west that would increase. But, a 50,000 acre fenced in area being a "canned hunt"? Take your back pack and rifle and go get yourself some of it.

phil mcwilliam
April 21, 2009, 07:29 AM
Last year when I hunted in Africa I was disappointed when seeing the fences surrounding the concession I was hunting, although my initial apprehension was gone once I realised the 30,000 acres was big enough for even giraffes to hide in. Canned hunts had only been banned in South Africa a few years prior to my trip. My guide actually took me to a place where they previously had canned hunts for lion. The 100 yard x 100 yard enclosure resembled an oversized tennis court with high wire mesh fencing with the top 3 ft angled 45 degrees inwards intertwined with razor wire - not my idea of a fair hunt. My guide explained now that for hunting lion in South Africa a "game ranch" must be over 3,000 acres & the lion if imported to the area must be released at least 12 months prior to hunting. I think there is a need to manage wildlife resources in every part of the world, but unfortunately there will always be stories of "arnold" the pig.

kyle1974
April 21, 2009, 07:34 AM
I've hunted on a 3500 acre high fence place, and I promise you that fence gives you no "guarantees".

the only thing that fence does, is keep the deer from jumping a fence and getting shot by neighbors who think a 1.5 year old 11 pointer is a real trophy.

as for "canned" hunts, (if anyone could actually define what that is) isn't my cup of tea.... but why is it any worse than a slaughterhouse for the ultimate end (i.e dead animal)? I'd guess some of you guys complaining about canned hunts have never seen how it goes down in a meat market or slaughterhouse...

fisherman66
April 21, 2009, 07:48 AM
fisherman66, Pretty big list for it to be, "Complete and utter malarky." orchidhunter

I don't feel like playing huckleberry with you so I ain't gonna do the math, but I'd GUESS the average acreage of the list I posted is well over 10,000 acres and many don't have a single fence. Please narrow the list down to the ones that are high fenced and under say 100 acres so I can write my state rep and ask that the TPWD withdrawl their contract with those canned hunts.

ZeSpectre
April 21, 2009, 07:53 AM
My general impression is that these types of hunts seem like someone is buying bragging rights to that trophy on the wall.

I think I'd have to see it first hand to decide if I felt it was "real" hunting or just a shooting gallery.

Either way I'm not going to move to shut it down but I doubt I'd have a very high approval rating for the folks who participate. Seems to me that sometimes there really is a right way to do things and I'm not sure "canned" hunts are it.

This being a completely different matter from sustenance hunting in which case I'm for anything that puts meat on the table.

Art Eatman
April 21, 2009, 08:49 AM
Post #51 gave a good idea of what a "canned hunt" area is. They had similar problems in Arkansas a few years back, and such nastiness was outlawed there, as well. Then there was the celebrated Jimmy Houston canned shooting up north, which was discussed both here and at THR. But these were anomalous events, and have been dealt with.

As for the YO, it's much smaller than when Capt. Charles Schreiner first took up some half-million acres. When Charley III was running it as a hunting ranch, it was down to some 50,000 acres. The gate lock's combination was changed every month, starting with .25-35 and going on up to .45-70. :) Two of Charley III's ex-wives had an antique store in Austin. They both agreed, "I love him, but I just couldn't stay married to him." They'd both go to the ranch as hostesses for gatherings there. Bobby Snow was ranch manager, back then. His wife had a couple of cougars and a couple of jaguars in a little zoo-llike deal. Hal Matheny, Jerome Alexander and a guy nicknamed "Buttons" were hunting guides there.

So, yeah, I know a little bit about the YO. Charley's dead, now, though, and I've not kept track since they started selling "ranchettes" of a hundred acres or so.

The YO was instrumental in the beginnings of exotics in Texas. They had Sally the eland, who browsed on scrub-oak leaves. Blackbuck antelope and Axis deer. Even a Himalayan mountain sheep (goat?) which could stand flat-footed and jump some eight feet. There was also a sizable herd of longhorns.

But, yeah, orchidhunter, tell us of your eyewitness account of somebody on the YO shooting an animal in a 100'x100' pen. If you didn't see it yourself, or personally know the observer as a reliable witness, don't try to feed us any more non-factual nonsense.

kyle1974
April 21, 2009, 09:37 AM
Just like these "canned hunts" people have told me about that occur on the king ranch.... most of these people have never set foot on the king, (or any of these other places), and talk about them like they have lifelong first hand experience with them.

even with the sale of the 40-100 acre tracts on the YO, the main outside fence is still in place. the ranchettes are included within the boundary, so the ranch itself being 40K acres +/- is still essentially there.


My problem with people getting on this canned hunt bandwagon, is that some people think 300 acres is canned, some people think 50 acres is canned..some people have no idea how many acres is canned.

The anti hunters don't give a damn HOW many acres we hunt on. They don't like hunting, and they want it all to end. This is the same path as gun control. give them an inch, they will take a mile

Mainah
April 21, 2009, 10:14 AM
This issue has been in the news here in Maine recently, there was an effort to ban "canned" hunts that take place here. The owners of a couple of these outfits actually did a good job of defending themselves and the legislature dropped an attempt to ban this form of hunting.

I wouldn't participate, but if the outfit is well run I don't find it any less ethical than raising stock for slaughter and sale.

eaglesnester
April 21, 2009, 10:40 AM
I only hunt wild canny muleys. They are smart and secretive. They are so smart up here in the Northern Interior of B.C. Canada that you could hunt for years and never get on to one.
We also have the farmer fields bucks that you can only access with permission from the landowner. They stand out there on private land in the alfalfa and almost say (here I am come and shoot me) No thanks, I would rather go out locate a willey trophy buck, sneak and peak then take him like a real hunter. Taking a trophy muley is very, very difficult, you got to be very good to get up on one. You can take the canned hunts if that's the way you want to do it but it ante my cup of tea.

Buzzcook
April 21, 2009, 11:46 AM
I just returned "empty handed" from a weeks guided deer hunt on a cattle property that had a deer proof perimeter fence. This privately owned cattle property in South Australia spans over 400,000 acres.

I'd be pretty damn upset. Someone who has animals on their property and can't drop you off with in rifle shot of them is ripping you off.

taz1
April 21, 2009, 11:47 AM
i still cant get over poor old fred.

sounds like you got some real f-up friends. they probly dump their dogs and cats when their no longer small and cute too.:mad:

as for fred a 1000 lb pig, you would need a gun to make him run, he would over heat and stroke out in less than 100yd.:barf:

any one that saw a 9 ft. 1000 lb. pig and thought it was wild is a idot and im glad they are hunting in a enclosed area instead of the woods where i might be.

i raised a lot of hogs growing up an old fred has my bs meter pegging out.

orchidhunter
April 21, 2009, 11:54 AM
Although hunting and wildlife issues have traditionally been regulated under the jurisdiction of the individual states, uniform, consistent, unambiguous federal legislation is needed to address the issues raised by “canned hunts.” This is vital for both the welfare protection of animals and the ethical hunting community. The inhumane treatment and ultimate death of animals involved in “canned hunts” can only be seen as intentional acts of animal cruelty and abuse. The damage this industry does to the legitimacy of hunting is immeasurable. The only purpose for this cruelty is economic gain for those who provide the animals or the opportunity to participate in this act.

Without federal regulation, the killing of captive animals for profit will continue. orchidhunter

ZeSpectre
April 21, 2009, 12:01 PM
uniform, consistent, unambiguous federal legislation is needed to address the issues raised by “canned hunts.”

Wow, when have you ever seen Federal legislation meet the requirements of "uniform, consistent, unambiguous"?

I worked with movers and shakers in DC for almost 20 years and I never saw that.

bwheasler
April 21, 2009, 12:44 PM
This kind of inter hunter bickering is just what anti-hunter and PETA want. We as hunter have to stay united. As far Federal Gov regulated anything, how is that going. The way you shut down unethical canned hunts is to inform real hunter about the truth. Then they won't go, canned hunt runs out of money and closes. If they have a bad product , then no one will come. Canned is a relative term. Fishing in 1/2 pond, canned fishing compared the the ocean. Shooting does over a feeder. Saying a canned hunt the animal doen't have a chance. Give Chuck Adams his bow and most animals do have chance. See what mean. Remember folks, other hunters are not the enemy.

Wildebees
April 21, 2009, 01:15 PM
Yes, all the posts here are to the point because it is not hunting; maybe at best it is dispatching a live animal along its journey towards becoming good steaks or coarsely ground sausage, or biltong (as we call our local jerky delicacy).

Some foreign clients of “canned hunts” where a lion was the animal to be culled out of the fenced-in pride of three did indeed know that it was an old and well-fed circus performer in its days. Nevertheless that did not distract the trigger-puller to pose with the carcass and even display the nicely draped skin or mounted “trophy” in his Vermont home.

A few years ago my one gun-shop owner pal (man I made him financially successful with all the hardware I bought from him, but he was so damn good on cold rainy days when I was not flying aeroplanes around to stock sales - he would call me in for some long-winded chillies rolled into sandwich size processed cheese and showing me the newest .375 H&H he had) went to get a gemsbok (Oryx) on a 30 000 hectare (NOT acres!) fenced farm near a town that goes by the name of Vyburg (like in “Free Town” - the name is from a rather interesting moment in my beloved country’s colourful history). Now to walk and stalk and find and shoot and kill a gemsbok around 30 000 hectares of savannah, even though fenced in can by no means described as “canned”.

Servaas (“sehr-fahs”) was a rather good shot if not the world fittest loper, so he and his 7x57 got the nicest gemsbok around 4 in the afternoon, but he was rather clapped out by the time the farmer located him and loaded him and the bled carcass onto the Ford F250 pick-up truck (which we call a “bakkie” here like in “plucking” but with a b and without the ph and the ng).

The farmer was a well-known cattle breeder as well and on the way home to the cool room he went via the small 300 hectare fenced in corral to - let’s be honest - brag with his red and white Brahman cattle living on the best natural feeding the Kalahari has to offer in preparation for his production stock sale planned a few months down the line.

Servaas stood on the back of the bakkie with his .22-250 having locked the mauser into the hard case. The owner drove around, and talking outside towards the back he was expounding the virtues of his well bred herds and pointed out some exceptionally good blood and how his good eye had chosen the bull as well as the cows that had bred these.

“How much would that tan ox at ten ‘o clock fetch you at the sale”, Servaas asked.

Now farmers are forever playing off low prices against rising costs to show how they suffer under financial pressures and in typical fashion the answer was: “You know these damn stock sales and those skelm (devious) buyers form the big cities - They’ll probably offer me no more than R3 000 if they buy a pen of 50”.

In that single moment, without hesitation, while the resonance of the burly and bearded driver of the bakkie’ voice was still hanging in the quiet afternoon sunlight of the Kalahari the ox’s front legs folded as a 45 grain monolithic solid whizzed through its brain. The rifle’s short but loud report had already left the area in its expanding shockwave bubble across the savannah and into the atmosphere. All Servaas said was: “You’ve got three thousand”.

Now that is canned hunting.

And if you know a Brahman ox living off the land you’ll want a little more than a .22-250 had you stalked him and cornered him against the fences… Man, he is sure to give you quite a bit more run for your money than any bison bred on salt licks and GM pellets!

fisherman66
April 21, 2009, 01:19 PM
Without federal regulation, the killing of captive animals for profit will continue. orchidhunter


There is federal regulation. It's the FDA. I see you are ducking my question, Art's and many others. Off to iggy land wichya.

kyle1974
April 21, 2009, 01:45 PM
How is it more inhumane for an animal to get shot in a 50 acre pen vs a non fenced area?

dead is dead.... get over it, and STFU already.

publius
April 21, 2009, 01:59 PM
that fred the pig story is ridiculous. did it happen, maybe, but it does not represent any type of hunt no matter what you want to call it. If it did happen I seriously doubt there is another case with any similarities.

Para Bellum
April 21, 2009, 03:54 PM
...hunting rookies don't know how they will react at their first shooting chance. I think it's not at all a bad idea to let any hunter make their first kill in a most controlled environment. That prevents game from bad shoots as good as possible, too.

Once you know that you won't shake at a killing chance and that you are able of placing the shot well, I see no point in canned hunting unless meat production etc.

kyle1974
April 21, 2009, 04:06 PM
The only reason that "fred the pig" story is so "out there" is because of two reasons..

1. the pig was friggen enormous.
2. a kid shot it.

At the end of the day.... who cares, it was just a damn pig. they're essentially a pest.

cat9x
April 21, 2009, 04:33 PM
If it wasn't for Texas ranches offering exotic hunts of Blackbuck, Scimitar Oryx, Aoudad, etc, these animals would all be but extinct (as they are nearly in their native countries).

As far as canned hunts with no place to run or hide, I guess you've never been to Texas or set foot on a typical ranch. Many of our exotics are free ranging by the way.

glockman55
April 21, 2009, 04:47 PM
The problem I have with pinned up wild game is when they spread disease to the wild heard outside the fence..:mad:

hogdogs
April 21, 2009, 05:43 PM
One point I just remembered is that even on a small farm, there have been feral cattle caught by hog dogs and the land owner had no clue it was there... the time I am aware of was on a 1,000 acre farm/ranch that had much in pasture and the rest in tomatoes and citrus... Just a few little "bayheads" of swamps to hide in...
Brent

Art Eatman
April 21, 2009, 07:53 PM
orchidhunter's idea about canned hunts is really just too foolish for knowledgeable people to give any credence to it. It's a very rare situation, and is already outlawed by most states. As instances are discovered, they also lead to elimination by law. Trying to bring the Feds into the deal is just another case of a solution looking for a problem.

Enough of feeding a troll.