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roy reali
April 15, 2009, 07:44 PM
Why is there such a preoccupation with pump shotguns here? Even threads asking for opinions on semi-auto shotguns end up with comments about pump shotguns. I really am curious about this.

hogdogs
April 15, 2009, 08:01 PM
When it is an overtly HD/SD type thread and someone asks what is the most reliable "auto" for HD/SD, I tend to say "pump" as they are far easier to keep running reliably. But pump guns are reliable multi round fast shooters for a variety of shooting sports and defensive uses.
Unlike auto loader pistols, there are many more variations in ammo to throw off reliability as well as other aspects. For recoil operated action, they are going to cycle more reliably with one round better than others... With gas operated you have many types of debris that could affect the operation. A hunk of wad petal could get sheared off into a gas port, powder also can clog an otherwise clean port, I bet other debris like a lead particle or buffer could some how get in the way too.
so many more pieces and parts in a shot shell... Plus the method of feeding a shot shell from mag tube to chamber is an art in itself in either a pump or auto but the man gets it done.
Brent

Waterengineer
April 15, 2009, 08:03 PM
Not all of us are "preoccupied" with pump guns, but I agree there is a huge volume of pump gun threads and posts in threads started on other topics. Might I suggest it is because of the "tactical" nature of the members. You might notice the specific pump guns being discussed are sourced to LEO and DoD departments.

We need to remember who owns TFL and the orientation of the membership they serve. At one time I suggested two shotgun forums: a) tactical and b) Hunting/clay but, alas, that idea was nixed.

Also, I believe a second reason is, for beginners pumps are a small hurdle to entry ($$) to the world of shotguns.

roy reali
April 15, 2009, 08:12 PM
Wouldn't a side-by-side shotgun be the ultimate in reliability? Don't dangerous game guides in Africa use double barrel rifles for that very reason? I believe that the odds of a double barrel shotgun jamming is not too likely. In fact, if pulling the trigger results in the hammer hitting a "dud" round, hitting the other trigger will immediately allow a shot to be fired. If the second trigger pull also fails to discharge the weapon, well it probably wasn't your day anyway. No pump or semi-auto allows that.

Some here act as though self loading shotguns are some sort of new fangled technology. Are they waiting for the kinks to be worked out?

hogdogs
April 15, 2009, 08:16 PM
One day I will break down and get myself an auto loader Mossberg...
The thing about the side by side is it is a 2 shot max capacity ('tween reloads of course). On a safari hunt the paying hunter is never the only one carrying a suitable rifle... In a HD/SD situation, you won't likely have a pro hunter and his payed help to back you up.;)
A single shot shotgun beats no shotgun at all...
Brent

roy reali
April 15, 2009, 08:20 PM
But those two shots are about the most guranteed ones you'll find. Also, if the defender has one arm disabled, the side-by-side would be easier to operate then the pump.

hogdogs
April 15, 2009, 08:38 PM
Yes there are "bennys" to the single action (exposed hammer is preferred to me at least) break barrel set up.
As kids we would load the single shot and put 3 shells 'tween our left fingers and race the guy with the pump action... Not a likely win but we got quick.
Brent

roy reali
April 15, 2009, 08:43 PM
When I was old enough for my first shotgun, my dad got me a side-by-side. He reasoned that it would keep me from wasting a third shot. It was also much safer. You open the gun and it pretty much is rendered safe.

My biggest gripe here is the pump-a-holics that have to invade all threads. Someone could ask weather they should buy a Remington 11-87 or a Franchi 48, and some yoyo will post a recommendation for a Remington 870 in the same thread.

Yodwinder
April 15, 2009, 09:57 PM
Nothing to say.

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/7/7b/Obvioustroll.jpg

Creeper
April 15, 2009, 09:58 PM
My biggest gripe here is the pump-a-holics that have to invade all threads. Someone could ask weather they should buy a Remington 11-87 or a Franchi 48, and some yoyo will post a recommendation for a Remington 870 in the same thread.

To qualify my comments from a "I am my gun" perspective (more on this later)...
The pump I own is an Ithaca 37 that I've bought new in the '70s, and keep for sentimental reasons. My go-to gun is a Benelli M2. No brag... just a point of fact.

The most common self-defense, and quite frequently the most common "first shotgun" is going to be a pump. Most pumps are considered entry level and can be bought at almost any sporting or department store. The most commonly bought gun will generate the greatest number of threads and posts.

Many of these pump gun posts are by new, relatively "un-savvy" shotgun owners... but, they are, if nothing else, an enthusiastic bunch of boys and girls that like to offer their view, sometimes in a thread where their comments may not be too relevant. Forgive them their trespasses.
If they stay involved in shotguns, they will (may?) eventually gravitate to the middle and upper end of the shotgun world and purchase SxS, O&U and semi-auto shotguns as their tastes and wallet allow.

I look at it this way... sure, it gets a little tiresome to have a small, overly opinionated handful of people infiltrate threads they have no business in, but if you segregate them or choose to treat them like second class citizens... then you run the risk of this becoming an elitist, "high buck guns only" forum.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a bit of an elitist myself... but to lump all pump gun owners into a "some yoyo" category is to do a disservice to a large chunk of this forums membership.
I'd much prefer instead that you treat each and every post as a person rather than a gun.
There are people here that I like and some I don't... but it's their individual intelligence and common sense rather than their choice of firearms that determines their status.

C

roy reali
April 15, 2009, 10:12 PM
I never said all or even most gun owners are yoyo's. I respect most gun owners even if there tastes differ from mine. In this day and age we all have stick together. But, seeing posting expounding the virtues of pump shotguns on a thread that has nothing to do with pump shotguns is ludicrous. It borders on obsession.

I don't see the semi-auto fans doing the same on pump shotgun threads.

roy reali
April 15, 2009, 10:24 PM
I would vote for the 870 Competition, I think it was called.

Made from (I think) 1978 to 1983 (or something like that, it is a gas assisted pump. The gas assist did not rechamber an unfired round but relieved recoil.

This comment is from a thread asking for semi-auto feedback. I don't think an 870 is a semi-auto.

zippy13
April 15, 2009, 11:10 PM
My biggest gripe here is the pump-a-holics that have to invade all threads. Someone could ask weather they should buy a Remington 11-87 or a Franchi 48, and some yoyo will post a recommendation for a Remington 870 in the same thread.+1
Yep, I've noticed that, too. But it's not limited to the shell shuckers. It happens at all levels. Ask which K-gun is best for American Skeet and someone will post a comment that his new Ruger Red Label is the best target gun anyone could ever want.

Psychologically, I think it may be based on our sense of community -- humans find security and comfort in defined groups. Our instincts are still dialed into the basic family or tribal unit. Whereas shotgun ownership may not endear one to his neighbor, with this forum there's a de facto community of similarly minded folks. The basic unifying element or lowest common denominator being the entry level pump shot gun. The majority of us have one now, or have had one at one time or another.

When a fresh thread strays from the LCD, as they will tend to do, some may feel (subconsciously) that it threatens the cohesion of the base community. The apparent formation of a new splinter community makes them uncomfortable.

An off topic, or inappropriate reply serves two purposes: First, it comforts the poster, no matter how far off-topic his reply, it's his way of saying "Me, too, I don't want to be excluded from the new group." And, the off-topic reply is a way for the writer to reel-in the perceived splinter group and strengthen the original community.

The same thing happens at social gatherings. You arrive at a party and the folks you want to be with are already talking on an unfamiliar topic. What do you do: Interject something on a fresh topic, wait for a break in the conversation and start a fresh topic, or seek another group? It's much the same on-line.

My two cents worth,
Pete

roy reali
April 15, 2009, 11:14 PM
Great reply!

seanie
April 16, 2009, 01:41 AM
It happens on almost every topic of every thread. I posted a topic about a decent, low cost red dot and got a ton of responses telling me I was wasting my time and to get (insert any kind of high magnification scope here). I see it a lot when people ask about rifles. You always get someone telling the OP not to waste their time with anything but an AR.

I guess the moral of the story is: regardless of the forum, topic, or question, someone's always going to throw in their two cents, regardless of how irrelevant it is. This is the internet after all.

sholling
April 16, 2009, 02:26 AM
There was a time that autoloaders weren't the best choice for a defensive situation and when all of the augments about complexity and reliability were valid. That ended in the 1980s with the introduction of the inertia system in the Benelli M1 Super 90. There is no longer a valid reason to choose a pump over a well chosen autoloader for home defense - other than cost or personal preference.

The Benelli doesn't care if you have ultralight 2-3/4 trap loads or 3" magnum 00 buck in the magazine - or a mix. It just shoots. There are no adjustments included or needed. There was also a time that a really-really good shotgunner could cycle an 870 faster than most autoloaders. That ended with the Benelli - a shotgun that can be doubletapped nearly as fast and accurately as a 1911, and with a lot less recoil then a pump.

Yes it's possible for a beginner to Bozo a hipshot by the equivalent of limpwristing, but a beginner is just as likely to Bozo racking the slide of a pump. The only two remaining advantages of a pump are the attention grabbing racking sound, and that you can hang a weapon light, and a laser, and a ammo saddle, and a small tac-nuke launcher from it and have a heck of a mall-ninja special. ;)

I'm seriously thinking about giving a Stoeger 2000 a try for a second shotgun. They sell for about the price of a spare barrel for a Benelli M1. It's close (but not exact) copy of the Benelli M1 by a sister company.

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/images/stoeger/Model_2000_Satin_Walnut_s.jpg
http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/images/stoeger/Model_2000_Black_Synthetic_Grip_s.jpg

I'd also like to try one of the new Mossy autoloaders.

Ian0351
April 16, 2009, 02:32 AM
+1 here

someone's always going to throw in their two cents, regardless of how irrelevant it is. This is the internet after all

Or like the man said: Opinions are like a$$holes, you find a lot of 'em on the internet.

kiwicrusaders
April 16, 2009, 02:41 AM
I personally hate those Remington 870 people as well !! Everyone knows that you should get a Browning BPS !!

freakintoguns
April 16, 2009, 02:53 AM
im just a big fan of shotguns, pump autoloader, sxs and OU. currently though all i have is a 870. someday ill have 5 of each style tho :D

johnbt
April 16, 2009, 01:57 PM
"Ask which K-gun is best for American Skeet"

The ones that don't blow up?

;)

longcall911
April 17, 2009, 08:47 PM
Some pumpers can talk about pumps only because they are tacti-kool. There I said it. But, they are in the minority on this board. Most members are professionals and/or veteran enthusiasts.

/*tom*/

impalacustom
April 18, 2009, 03:46 AM
I tend to wonder if men don't have a thing for pump shotguns for the obvious reason. We've been using our hands in the pumping motion since day one. I just had to make a joke out of the post since no one else did.

I prefer automatics because I am lazy.