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View Full Version : Ideal bullet (not caliber) for strong sus scrofa or red deer


Para Bellum
April 11, 2009, 11:17 AM
Hi Folks,

I know, I've recently started a thread stating that caliber and bullet don't matter as much as we might think (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=348820)

But, still: I am looking for the best bullet for my 7x57 to hunt the following game. Let's assume the bullet hits the right spot each time, what would be you choice if you wanted to drop the following species DRT?:

White Tail Deer (Odocoileus virginianus) up tp 550#
Wild Hog (Sus Scrofa) up to 440#
Red Deer (Cervus elaphus) up tp 550#
Elk (Cervus canadensis) up tp 550#

I am thinking of Barnes TSX or RWS HMK...

pilothunter
April 11, 2009, 01:32 PM
There are several quality 160gr bullets (SD .286) and 175gr (SD .310) like the Speer GS, Nosler Partition, and Swift A-Frame available. I think the added velocity with the 160s (2600-2700) would make them my choice for an all-round bullet. I shoot a 173gr in my 7x57 and have some 175gr RN loaded for my .284, but I am not concerned with ranges over 150-200 yds or so.

hardluk1
April 11, 2009, 01:34 PM
That easy ,a Barnes X 140gr of one type or another.

SKULLANDCROSSBONES65
April 11, 2009, 07:49 PM
G'day.

Let's assume the bullet hits the right spot each time,

It won't matter what you are using if you hit the right spot. So I think you should change the conditions to include hitting thick heavy skin or a layer of mud. Then the bullet strikes heavy shoulder bone.
Now what bullet would be effective?

publius
April 11, 2009, 07:56 PM
barnes-x 140gr 1st choice, next nosler partition,swift a-frame, woodleigh.

crowbeaner
April 11, 2009, 08:00 PM
In your 7x57, I recommend Hornady Interlocks, your choice, in 139 and 154 grain weights. Use IMR 4064, 4320, or H414 and shoot to kill. The 139 will do a dandy job on smaller animals, and the 154 will give greater penetration on the larger ones as well as higher MV than a 160 or 175 grain pill.

Para Bellum
April 12, 2009, 02:29 AM
It won't matter what you are using if you hit the right spot.
My late uncle used to drop roe deer with a .22lr match rifle, shooting them from his bedroom window into the hear. Hit -looked around - DRT. Each time. Was illegal, but they ate his specially raised rosebuds, or tried to.

But with the much bigger and stronger species I've mentioned I think that even with a plain hear hit, a more effective bullet will just do more damage and cause more blood loss in shorter time or (greater) shock.

So I think you should change the conditions to include hitting thick heavy skin or a layer of mud. Then the bullet strikes heavy shoulder bone.
Now what bullet would be effective?
Exactly. That thick heavy skin and mud etc could also be right infront of the heart from your specific shooting angle...

About the Barnes Bullets I have heared that they tend to be unbalanced and go astray once the hit. They should also have the tendency to loose one or two claws and go astray then. And, due to the manufactoring process of the hollow point (notching it open and squeezing it together again), they should not be perfectly centered mass-wise and not very accurate. Don't know whether this is true.

What I am thinking of, is the RWS H-Frame:
It looks like this:
http://www.rws-munition.de/images/rws_geschosse_hm_zahlen.png

and behaves like that in gelatine:
http://www.rws-munition.de/images/gelatine_gelee_hm.jpg

And this is how they describe it:
The famous H-groove is the special feature of this projectile, forming a groove in the middle of the jacket to act as specific breaking point. It supports the separation of the two projectile cores with different hardness and is partly responsible for the dual effective system of the projectile: The front section breaks up rapidly after hitting the game, producing strong fragmentation and energy output. The cylindrical tail section separates from the H-groove, passes through the body, including any bones, even with heavy game, and provides the required exit hole.

What I like about it is the extreme accuracy out of my old Mauser 98 hunting rifle (military conversion from 1961). Heavy long bullet.

It has the follwing ballistical data in the RWS 7x57 factory load:
7 x 57 Bullet: HMK 11.2 g
Distance: 0m 50m 100m 150m 200m 250m 300m
V[m/s]: 770 732 696 661 626 593 561
E[J]: 3320 3001 2713 2447 2195 1969 1762
SID (159m): 1.8 4.0 1.1 -7.4 -22.2 -43.9
100m spot: -0.2 0 -4.9 -15.3 -32.1 -55.8
BC value: 0.383 Test barrel length: 600 mm

Would I change for the better with a Nosler or Barnes?

pinotguy
April 12, 2009, 01:56 PM
Think I'd opt for the 140-gr. North Fork.

eaglesnester
April 12, 2009, 02:15 PM
Ell chepo Remington PSPCL. It out performs all other bullets. Tried and true non premium, accurate, plane Jane round.

Al Thompson
April 13, 2009, 11:42 AM
Barnes would get you deeper still, but some rifles do not like X bullets. Have to test the loads. When I was in South Africa (20 years ago) the RWS bullets were well liked as was your .275 Rigby. :)

I'd go with the heavy RWS (if there's a choice) and shoot it bunches so you know where it hits at range. I'm a fan of one bullet per gun/caliber.

Oh, I've witnessed Barnes X bullets shoot very small groups out of one rifle and horrible groups out of others. I think it has to do with the individual barrel, not the basic bullet. FWIW, the .338s and up seem to do better with X bullets for some reason. The X bullets tend to give a long narrow wound track and usually always exit. If that's what you want, it works great.

Brian Pfleuger
April 13, 2009, 11:47 AM
White Tail Deer (Odocoileus virginianus) up tp 550#

Where oh where do you intend to find a 550 pound white-tail deer? A 300 pound whitetail would be absolutely MASSIVE.


Anywho.... there is nothing that will "DRT" any animal reliably unless you are making CNS/head shots. Shoot 'em through the heart/lungs and follow the blood. At the end of the blood they'll be Dead, Right There.

hardluk1
April 13, 2009, 01:35 PM
Don't try to push a barnes x to any max levels and it flies well so long as rifle twist and bullet match well. It is a longer bullet for its wieght so that is the reason most shooters and companies load lighter wieghts when compairing brand to brand as most all firearm makers rate of twist is for the heavier bullets. Shoot a 140 gr x in your average 1 in 9 or 10 twist 7mm barrel and all is good a 160 or 175gr might not like the twist in a x. Just like most guns have a design they like better than others. Can't be to bad as most companies now pay to use barnes x in there line, abate some are renamed for them. As in winchester,pmc,rem and cor-bon with there dpx bullets. The very early x bullets could and did shed pedals and have flite problems and copperd barrels ,,,, !3 + years ago. I have shot mullies that traveled through 51" of meat and bone breaking ribs and back bone and have a perfect pelled back bullet to show for it under the hide at the other end of the deer with no loss of wieght shot at 125 yards at 3000fps. I like several bullets for different reasons. but the x as hard to beat as a great all around .

Scorch
April 13, 2009, 03:59 PM
I load 140 gr Nosler Partition bullets in my 7X57. No complaints to date. Second choice would be the Swift A-Frame, essentially an improved copy of the Nosler Partition bullet, but considerably more expensive.

The RWS H-Mantle loses a significant portion of its weight immediately upon penetration, but very little after that, and it reportedly works very well. If that is what you have available, go for it. I know no one who has used them here in the USA due to price and limited availability. You may not have access to Nosler bullets in Europe, just like we have limited access to RWS ammunition.

Many years ago, I owned a 9.3X57mm, and I used RWS Torpedo bullets in it since .366" bullets were virtually nonexistant at that time. Never killed anything with it, but they shot very well.

Para Bellum
April 14, 2009, 03:28 AM
White Tail Deer (Odocoileus virginianus) up tp 550#
Where oh where do you intend to find a 550 pound white-tail deer? A 300 pound whitetail would be absolutely MASSIVE.
:p We don't have whitetail where I live, just red deer and roe deeer. Since I assume that most of you don't have red deer, I took the whitetail as a similar animal. Still, our red deer go up to 550#. You could also think of an elk (wapiti) with max 550# to see what I'm aiming for.

Anywho.... there is nothing that will "DRT" any animal reliably unless you are making CNS/head shots. Shoot 'em through the heart/lungs and follow the blood. At the end of the blood they'll be Dead, Right There.
I know that, but I want to get as close to DRT as I can with an ethical shot (so, aiming for the heart). I don't want to go for the head or neck, because if the game moves in the last moment (or I screw up the shot) I could only destroy the jaw or cause a parasite-attracting wound, both of which I want to avoid).

The RWS H-Mantle loses a significant portion of its weight immediately upon penetration, but very little after that, and it reportedly works very well. If that is what you have available, go for it. I know no one who has used them here in the USA due to price and limited availability
Yep, the RWS H-Mantel is what my gun is currenty zeroed with. But you are right about the price. Premium RWS cartridge with H-Mantel: EUR 65 for a 20 shot box. :eek: Good stuff, though.
You may not have access to Nosler bullets in Europe, just like we have limited access to RWS ammunition.
We can by all here, lots of availiable cartdriges with Nosler bullets or Nosler Bullets alone (I don't handload).

Nnobby45
April 14, 2009, 04:38 AM
I'm a firm believer in keeping up with superior handgun bullet technology for self defense. I update my ammo with the new stuff.

However, where game bullets for rifles are concerned, the technology has been very good for some time now. The Sierra line of big game bullets work as well as they always did--and they're accurate. The 15 gr. for deer size critters, and 165 and 180 has they get bigger ( for .30 cal.). Yes, those old bullets that have a copper jacket and a little lead exposed at the nose.

Some of the game you're after would probably require some of the heavier bullet weights available for 7X57.

Lot's to choose from. Finding a good bullet and load is much of the enjoyment. Be careful of all copper bullets, because they're longer for their weight. Make sure you have enough twist to stabilize them.

Brian Pfleuger
April 14, 2009, 11:43 AM
Since I assume that most of you don't have red deer, I took the whitetail as a similar animal. Still, our red deer go up to 550#.

Ah, I see.


I want to get as close to DRT as I can with an ethical shot (so, aiming for the heart).

Understandable. I doubt that you will be able to achieve DRT shots consistently when aiming for the heart. I hunt white-tail deer, averaging maybe 130 pounds, with a 12ga shooting 385gr JHPs at 1800fps. They rarely ever drop on the spot. As an example, I shot a 140 pound (roughly) buck last year at 40 yards, right through the heart. He almost acted like I missed, just sort of flinched and jogged away, except he only got about 40 yards. Your best bet for dropping them would be to hit both shoulders but that ruins a lot of meat. As for me, I try to miss both shoulders, if possible, and go for the lungs or heart.

Para Bellum
April 14, 2009, 01:52 PM
Peetzakilla, first of all, I just love your nickname! :)

I doubt that you will be able to achieve DRT shots consistently when aiming for the heart.
Me too. I also expect jogging of 20-60yds even with perfect heart shots. But I want the jogging to be as short as possible. Huntin ethics (and lack of a dog).

Para Bellum
April 14, 2009, 04:15 PM
The Sierra SBT (Spitzer Boat Tail) would also be an option. Slower and less energy than the RWS H-Mantel at the beginning, but 300 joules more at 300m. The heavier Bullet is catching up over distance!

Any experiences with the SBT against game between 180 and 550#?