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edistomick
March 31, 2009, 11:21 PM
Just wondering about defending your pet dog against someone on your property scenario.
Someone comes, uninvited, on your rural property, your dog runs out barking, acting as an alarm bell, interloper pulls gun to shoot dog.
Dog has history of barking with hackles up, but then lays down and wants it's belly rubbed. No aggression, just barking. All neighbors, town-folk, adore said dog.
Like it or not, my dog is a whole lot important to me than a stranger or any of my portable goods (tv, computer, cash, etc.).
My dog is a small golden retriever, but still protective of "her turf".
What would be my options for defense for my pet?
Human life vs. canine is basically a no brainer, but..........
Would I just have to watch as a stranger on my property shoots my dog down while doing what she's supposed to do by protecting my/her property?

The interloper may have no ill intentions upon gaining entry to my property, but he may not know the intentions of my dog or know that once off the property, the aggression (all for show as it may be), will cease.

Any thoughts?

Fence/Beware of dog/no trespassing signs are not really an option since I run a business and have never had a situation with customers coming up--yet.

KLRANGL
March 31, 2009, 11:24 PM
Someone comes, uninvited, on your rural property,
interloper pulls gun

dog or no dog, if someone pulls a gun on my property and I dont know them, it'll be a bad day for all involved...

Now if I was inside in a safe place watching this happen outside, guess I really dont know what i'd do... wouldnt want to run outside and start a gunfight, but I love my dogs... hmmm

teeroux
March 31, 2009, 11:26 PM
Well if he has a gun in hand and you shoot him dead its your word not his.

KLRANGL
March 31, 2009, 11:37 PM
Well if he has a gun in hand and you shoot him dead its your word not his.
which is based on the assumption that he is the one who dies, and not you of course...

chemgirlie
March 31, 2009, 11:37 PM
If somebody is on my property without my permission and pulls a gun I would be on the phone to 911. My state's laws prevent me from firing a shot until I have retreated as far as possible. Even if I was able to legally shoot the other person I wouldn't assuming that they have not seen me and are not pointing their gun at me.

My taste in pets tends to be on the side of things that slither and things that have 8 legs, but even if I had a llama, dog, or alpaca I wouldn't kill somebody over the loss of my pet. It's not that I don't like my pets, it's that I have a certain set of requirements to pull the trigger. One or more of the following has to happen:
1. My life is in danger
2. Somebody else's life is in danger
3. There is a threat of serious bodily harm to me
4. There is a threat of serious bodily harm to somebody else
5. I'm fighting in a war

Pets aren't on the list though.

jgcoastie
April 1, 2009, 12:01 AM
I do love my golden, but if it comes down to the pup dying or me facing 20 years in prison on a manslaughter charge... I'll let the police deal with it while I begin a search for another dog...

edistomick
April 1, 2009, 12:10 AM
Chemgirlie,

8 legged and slithery pets are different than dogs, especially golden retrievers, as far as I see. I raised a runt and she slept in my hats and has been within feet of me since 1998 without a leash. She takes care of me as much as I take care of her.

You're # 2 and #4 apply to me.
My 24/7, 11 yr companion is a "somebody"

KLRANGL,
good point, pull a gun on my turf.........


chemgirlie,
I don't normally disagree with what you opine. I am a fan of your opinions, but on this specific issue I find apples to oranges comparisons.

hoytinak
April 1, 2009, 12:11 AM
If someone comes, uninvited, on my property and pulls a gun, dog or not they wouldn't be able to tell their side of the story. In Texas we can protect against property and that's just what I'd do.

edistomick
April 1, 2009, 12:19 AM
Dangit!!

Makes so much sense!
My response to chemgirlie looks like a bugger.

I'm torn between reason and feelings.

Sorry chemgirlie---you're right.

I just love that girl so much---I guess reality gets in the way sometimes.

Thanks jgcostie.

teeroux
April 1, 2009, 12:24 AM
which is based on the assumption that he is the one who dies, and not you of course...


Based on the asumption that he/she will be shot to death without warning from concealment/cover before he/she will be able to get off a shot on me, my family, my dog, or my propery and most likely without knowing I am there till they are dead.

Sixer
April 1, 2009, 12:38 AM
You have the right to protect your property... technically your pet is your property. Unless the said stranger is in fear of his own life because of your pets actions.
Ummm, the more I think about this the more confused I get. Tough call, there are just too many possibilities and scenarios to give a general YES or NO answer.

If I put myself in this situation I would make damn sure the univited guest knows that while he might have the dog in his sights, I've got him in mine. What happens then is up to him.

LoneWolf22056
April 1, 2009, 12:49 AM
if they pull on your dog and you shoot them, make sure they die. then just say that he pulled the gun on you. Like someone else said, it's going to be your word and not his, because his last word will be a gurgling of blood.

The system is not universally correct, and following it to to the T or dot on the i is asking for serious trouble. Pulling a gun on a dog is definitely overkill and is endangering everybody else around the immediate area. I've never understood why people get attacked and mauled by a dog. A dog! A normally sized human being has a height advantage. Unless the dog is cross-bred with a bear, it's going to be less than 200 pounds. A swift kick to the ribs or the snout of an overly aggressive canine is going to put a hurting on it for sure.

To prove this, I'll support with personal experience.
Once, I was out jogging and had been a good 5 miles and was nearing my home when a doberman came out at me. I shouted at it, because sometimes this is effective. It was not. The dog kept running at me, and no one was in sight, so I stopped running and waited for it to meet me. It jumped up at me and I kicked it square in the chest. The dog fell back and was whimpering, unable to stand. Threat neutralized.

A domestic animal should always be subordinate to a human. The use of a firearm to defend yourself is completely unnecessary. You've got longer legs and hands that can choke the dog into submission if he gets the drop on you.

Back on topic-To summarize, if anyone pulled a gun on my dog and I was able to draw and open fire, I would. Bottom line. If you're fast enough, you can draw a bead on them first and shout for them to drop the weapon (they'll be aiming at the dog). If they hesitate, administer the lead injection.

Tucker 1371
April 1, 2009, 12:59 AM
I might catch some flak for this but I think in this case a well placed warning shot might be the best initial action and here's my reasoning.

Assuming the distance isn't too much and you're a decent shot, you can place a shot close enough to the guy that you both get his attention and are in good position to turn his head into a canoe if need be.

If he has no ill intentions a shot will definitely take his attention off your dog, if he does then it will probably take his attention off your dog as you are an obviously greater threat.

The chance of him having time to raise his weapon from your dog to you and get off a shot while you already have him in you sights shouldn't be too great. Just be careful the warning shot doesn't stand a chance of ricocheting and becoming a threat to neighbors.

Tucker 1371
April 1, 2009, 01:02 AM
If you're fast enough, you can draw a bead on them first and shout for them to drop the weapon (they'll be aiming at the dog). If they hesitate, administer the lead injection.

If you have a pretty commanding voice then this is probably a better suggestion than mine.

chemgirlie
April 1, 2009, 01:02 AM
I've owned 4-legged creatures in the past. I just don't have enough time to devote to one, so I would feel really awful about getting one at the moment. But, assuming I did have a dog, there's nothing that says I can't encourage Fido to bite the guy while telling the 911 operator that if they don't arrest the trespasser quickly there might be a bit of an unavoidable mess to clean up.

hogdogs
April 1, 2009, 01:16 AM
If my dog/s get a gun pointed on 'em on my property it is not just property protection but a gun on my property falls under the no retreat required castle doctrine at which time I have no reason to think I or my family ain't next.
They don't even need to draw the weapon. Just posture up and/or show it to me and we are going to get it on! Same as if my dog leaves my place and shows aggression on someone else's place... I can't gripe if the dog gets a lead aspirin!
You can mess with my money, you can mess with my wife but if you mess with the dogs you are messin' with yer life:eek:... Just an ol' sayin I learned from real young...
Brent

edistomick
April 1, 2009, 01:18 AM
Sixer,

Yep, the more I think about it, the more confused I get.
I entirely get the human/pet thing.
But, dangit!, I love my little girl!!
Yeah, she's a pet, an animal, property.
Yet,
I go to sleep each night knowing she's within three feet, facing the door, protecting me as I sleep.
I awake, smacking my snooze button, once, her cold nose nuzzles me the second time until I let her out to patrol the perimeter and take care of business. She comes back in to herd me in the shower.
I could go on and on throughout the day and her customer relation prowess and camping/paddling (my business) skills, but it would be too sappy.

In the end, she's just an animal, not worthy of protection from irrational humans bent on violence.

alberich
April 1, 2009, 01:25 AM
That is really a difficult choice but despite the fact I really love animals and namely my pets, I side with the stranger here - well at least to some extent.
Just imagine what happens from her/his point of view: walking outside and suddenly "attacked" by a barking regularly sized dog with no human around to call the dog back.
Not everyone can "read" the dog's body language and to many people who spent their life driving cars and watching TV a barking dog just means a mortal danger. Namely if they are small or have children with them.

I'd say that some sign like "private property, beware of the dog" would be very helpfull if you have the dog running around freely.
OTOH I personally believe that shooting at a dog in SD situation (proper SD or not) is a bad tactics. A pepper spray works very effectively - but when you are shooting you better be lucky with that shot to stop the dog immediatelly. Ask hunters about shooting deers with long firearms in situation, where the animal stands perfectly still. And now you have just a handgun, the dog is attacking you, and damn close to you.

Deet
April 1, 2009, 05:29 AM
Good thread very emotional topic. In most cities as a responsible dog owner you must have your dog under control at all times. You can have the dog on a leash or in a fenced in yard, or whatever but you are responsible for his actions and you must be able to control him regardless. A charging dog situation is very serious, a dog might get shot or a person may get bit, you should try to avoid letting your dog get into this type of situation. Just a thought.

troy_mclure
April 1, 2009, 05:43 AM
he stated he lived in the country. different rules than in the city.


lone wolf, you ever play around with a big dog? i wrestle with my buddies 220lb bullmastiff all the time. its a strong, tough dog. a kick to the chest will just annoy it. it can easily hold down my buddy who is 6'2" and 280lbs.
it can toss my 150lb bum around like a rag doll.

Gazpacho
April 1, 2009, 05:46 AM
edistomick, if I read your OP correctly, your home is also a place of business? If so, that is a key to your problem. Because it is a place of business, you have implicitely given permission to customers and potential customers to come onto your property. At which point, if said customer perceived they were in immenent threat of bodily harm or death, they may be within their rights to shoot the dog.

A fence is the most obvious answer, but you have ruled that out. Don't do invisible fencing, unless you are willing to wear the shock collar too. Also it doesn't stop predators from coming in to kill your dog, but it does make your dog an easy target.

If not a fence around your property, how about a large fenced in dog run? Put her in during business hours. Maybe in sight of the driveway so she can bark when customers drive up. Or fence off the sides and back of the house, so she can't get out front.

ActivShootr
April 1, 2009, 05:59 AM
I think watching someone savagely kill my dog would cause me to fear for my life. ;)

djohn
April 1, 2009, 06:37 AM
When they say a mans best friend IMO thats the absolute truth.I have and had dogs my whole life and when I say with a few exception they have been the most loyal,protective and reliable friends a man can possiably ask for.My dog is part of my family like one of my kids and It would be a very emotional moment and would most definatley be a threat and safety concern,How it would play out is any ones guess.A dogs life may have a great value to us but in the eyes of the law the human life is much greater and would hate to loose my freedom over a dog and leave my children fatherless.

djohn
April 1, 2009, 06:53 AM
Deet is correct the law in connecticut all dogs most be under the owners control 24/7 365 No exceptions and when taken for walks or dogs parks the dog must be on a leash all times.

Nnobby45
April 1, 2009, 07:09 AM
Human life vs. canine is basically a no brainer, but..........
Would I just have to watch as a stranger on my property shoots my dog down while doing what she's supposed to do by protecting my/her property?


Stranger on what property? Your back yard at 2am where you'd have a reasonable fear that the intruders' propensity for violence could soon include you? Could your lawyer make the case for you being in reasonable fear of your life.

Depending on the circumstances, not sure the dog alone would qualify as justified, especially if your dog attacked the stranger. Then again, I'm no lawyer, and I have more questions than answers.:cool:

And of course, if he tried to shoot your dog, and you tried to shoot him, then there could be bullets travelling both ways.

I'd suspect there have been some precedents regarding deadly force to protect a pet.

rugerdawg
April 1, 2009, 07:18 AM
My dog is a very important member of my family. Drawing a gun on him for protecting his home would be no different than doing the same to my wife, daughter or me. If I have a shot there will only be one side to this story when the police arrive. Although if it is my dog he may get a warning before the hammer drops.

dragonfire
April 1, 2009, 08:10 AM
Im thinking dog in my yard who has permission to be there and a stranger who does not.I think Id feel bad shooting someone over a dog but if hes in your yard with a gun shooting dogs who knows what and where he'll be shooting next.

Harleyfixer
April 1, 2009, 08:20 AM
edistomick, if I read your OP correctly, your home is also a place of business? If so, that is a key to your problem. Because it is a place of business, you have implicitely given permission to customers and potential customers to come onto your property. At which point, if said customer perceived they were in immenent threat of bodily harm or death, they may be within their rights to shoot the dog.

A fence is the most obvious answer, but you have ruled that out. Don't do invisible fencing, unless you are willing to wear the shock collar too. Also it doesn't stop predators from coming in to kill your dog, but it does make your dog an easy target.

If not a fence around your property, how about a large fenced in dog run? Put her in during business hours. Maybe in sight of the driveway so she can bark when customers drive up. Or fence off the sides and back of the house, so she can't get out front.



+1

buzz_knox
April 1, 2009, 08:25 AM
I might catch some flak for this but I think in this case a well placed warning shot might be the best initial action and here's my reasoning.


Warning shots consitute the use of deadly force and must be justified the same as shooting at the person. If you are shooting to scare someone off who might have evil intentions, you are looking at assault with a deadly weapon, if not attempted murder.

As to the OP, my dog is never outside without myself or my wife walking him on the leash. Anyone attacking him would have to be using deadly force in our direction as well, so that normal rules on the use of deadly force apply. Issues of property or pet don't come into play.

KLRANGL
April 1, 2009, 09:23 AM
Based on the asumption that he/she will be shot to death without warning from concealment/cover before he/she will be able to get off a shot on me, my family, my dog, or my propery and most likely without knowing I am there till they are dead.
Well you know what happens when you assume :p

And of course, if he tried to shoot your dog, and you tried to shoot him, then there could be bullets travelling both ways.
Thats exactly what I was thinking. I personally dont have a problem shooting someone to save my dog (dog = family, and I bet a lawyer could articulate that in court too). My problem is should I endanger my own life to try and save the dogs life, ie start a firefight? If the dog is about to buy it, maybe its better to get your other family (wife/girlfriend/parents/siblings/kids) to a safe place and call the police because chances are he's coming your way next. A dog I could loose, my whole family not so much....

But if they did kill my dog, there'd be a reckoning come down upon them. But maybe im just emotional because my childhood dog died recently :(

ZeSpectre
April 1, 2009, 09:23 AM
It's interesting how we tend to only view our own situation.
For example my first thought was "wouldn't be an issue, I have a HUGE fenced in yard". So in that case I'd have some pretty clear-cut justifications for responding to someone shooting into my yard when my dog couldn't possibly be a real threat.

But then again I also remember an incident from my younger days when I was living in a condo. I was coming back from walking the dog I had at the time (dog was on leash) when the neighbors latest boyfriend (a real jerk) came storming out of their place and stepped on my dog.

As you can imagine the dog yelped and snapped at him.

I instantly pulled the dog back via the leash and things were obviously under control as I was now mostly between him and the dog...but the boyfriend threw back his shirt and drew down on my dog anyway.

In one of those automatic reactions (that later make you wonder what the hell you were thinking) I leaned forward and struck him HARD right on the wrist causing him to drop the gun.

Now I was unarmed at the time, but had I been armed and had I drawn and opened fire, that would have been one HELL of a mess (assuming I even survived).

I think this is one of those scenarios that is too situation dependent to develop more than just a general guideline for action.

pax
April 1, 2009, 09:33 AM
Emotionally your dog is a member of your family.

Legally, however, your dog is merely property. That's it, that's all.

If you are legal to kill someone over your TV set, you are legal to kill someone over your dog.

Otherwise, you need to find another way to solve the problem.

pax

hogdogs
April 1, 2009, 09:38 AM
PAX, The other situation is in some areas an armed person on your place has already committed a felony and to posture a violent intent has put the human in fear of their life. if the dog is attacked or shot they remove all doubt. This is only for legal defense as the dog is property in most jurisdictions.
Brent

pax
April 1, 2009, 09:39 AM
Brent ~

Good point. Thanks for the addition. You're right!

pax

KLRANGL
April 1, 2009, 09:50 AM
I think this is one of those scenarios that is too situation dependent to develop more than just a general guideline for action.
Very very true. Taking your scenario for example, what if he was really ****** at you and not your dog, and the gun was coming up in your direction? Too many things to think about, but I think the designed intent of the original post was to question if killing someone to defend your dog is okay...


Legally, however, your dog is merely property. That's it, that's all.

If you are legal to kill someone over your TV set, you are legal to kill someone over your dog.
Thanks for smacking me in the face. Everyone needs a wake up call at some point I guess....

onthejon55
April 1, 2009, 10:00 AM
The way i see it the dog is property so the interloper is already taking that right away. Also if the man pulls a gun on my property im going to assume hes there to do harm to me. I would shoot but only after he began firing at the dog.

mrray13
April 1, 2009, 10:06 AM
i had a real long reply typed, but most everything as already been said. i did want to bring one thing up, someone mentioned fence.

a few years ago i got an email titled frivilous(spl?) lawsuits, named after taht old lady who sued McDonalds over spilling coffee on herself. well, in the subject of this email were several lawsuits that were won by people who had committed stupid acts, got hurt and then got paid. one involved a dog.

seems a guy was bit by this dog, sued the owner and won. what didn't seem to matter to the jury was the fact that the dog was in it's fenced in back yard. the dog was chained up inside this fenced in back yard. and the perp was also inside this fenced in backyard, within reach of this chained up dog, SHOOTING this dog with a pellet gun!

so the guy was trespassing, inflicting bodily harm to a domestic animal (in this state, that can be a felony) and the dog defends himself. yet, the perp gets paid??


all that said, to those that responded there would only be one side of the story to tell the police, i say good for you! to the OP, the scenerio you ladi out, seems to me someone is drawing a gun on a family member. after the dog, who's to say who's next? do what you got to do, and remember, one's first reaction is usually the correct one.

Brian Pfleuger
April 1, 2009, 10:08 AM
I would not shoot a human to protect an animal. If I have reason to believe the person has other intentions then I may have other intentions. That simple.

AZ Med18
April 1, 2009, 10:18 AM
LEOs please answer this question for me. Are K-9s considered officers of the law and do you as their handler have a duty to protect them?

If the answer is yes then why can I not protect my dog as they can? A little more training makes them be able to be protected by lethal force?

mrray13
April 1, 2009, 10:26 AM
LEOs please answer this question for me. Are K-9s considered officers of the law and do you as their handler have a duty to protect them?



yep..they are and yes they do. however, it is the dog's duty to go after the perp, and if need be, sacrifice it's life for the officer. but try and hurt one of those dogs and well, let's just say that your trip to jail will be on deer filled trip. not to mention, all that resisting you did before we got you in the car...sheesh..have to replace the OC, bent my ASP, yada, yada, yada...



If the answer is yes then why can I not protect my dog as they can? A little more training makes them be able to be protected by lethal force?


not the training, it's the fact they are basiclly sworn officers of the law. your dog isn't a cop, the k-9 is. but i will agree/argue that your dog is family and as such, needs teh same rights to protection. by the law might not.

Creature
April 1, 2009, 10:45 AM
it's the fact they are basiclly sworn officers of the law.

Did he raise his right paw and state his name?

A dog is a dog and a jury will never put a dog's life above a human's.

Mike Irwin
April 1, 2009, 10:48 AM
In a word, yes.

Intruder with a gun? Threat.

Intruder attempting to shoot my dog? Threat to my friend and my property and ultimately to me.


In many states, canines are considered to be police officers, and assulting them/killing them is treated just as if a human officer was injured/killed.

It's happened a number of times in the metro DC area where someone has injured a police dog and has gone to jail on charges of assaulting a police officer.

In most areas I THINK it's a lower-class feony than if one were to assault a human officer, but it's still a felony.

Creature
April 1, 2009, 10:51 AM
In a word, yes.

Not sure if you are answering my question...or stating that you would indeed shoot someone who is threatening your dog.

skifast
April 1, 2009, 10:51 AM
Legally, in Ohio, you cannot use deadly force to protect property.

That being said, if he is going to shoot my dog, I would be in fear for my life. My assumption is that he is shooting the dog, so he can assault me. Thus, I can take his life. Dead men make bad witnesses.

Mike Irwin
April 1, 2009, 10:52 AM
I would shoot someone who was threatening to injure/kill my dog -- without hesitation and without compunction.

Creature
April 1, 2009, 10:53 AM
And you would be up to your eyes in a legal mess. A dog is a dog and no dog is worth a human life....dirtbag or otherwise. Virginia case law does not support using a deadly weapon in defense of personal property.

mrray13
April 1, 2009, 10:58 AM
Did he raise his right paw and state his name?

A dog is a dog and a jury will never put a dog's life above a human's

i didn't raise my right hand, nor state my name, yet the commission card in my wallet, as well as the badge on my chest, say i'm a sworn officer. however, teh person who issued the card, was sworn in as mayor....

and i challange you to go hurt a k-9, matter of fact, i double dare you. we'll see who's life they cherish more. btw, ignore all those "he was resisting" bumps and bruises you'll recieve for hurting a fellow officer. your life means way more to those cops then that dogs... :rolleyes:

that dog is as much cop, if not more, then it's handler. go ahead with your sarcasm and follow through on my challenge. you'll regret it, of that i'll promise.

Mike Irwin
April 1, 2009, 10:58 AM
"Yp to your eyes in a legal mess."

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the state, depends on the intruder's intentions. In Virginia I can use force, even lethal force, to protect property.

And, actually, I have a slightly different take on it.

No human's life is worth anything even remotely close to that of the mangiest cur.

This high sense of nobility and reverence we seem to imbue in "humanity" is as misplaced as it is wasted.

But, that's my thought on the subject.

Creature
April 1, 2009, 11:00 AM
and i challange you to go hurt a k-9, matter of fact, i double dare you.

This thread is not talking about a K-9. The OP is talking about his perasonal pet dog. So there...I double dog dare ya to shot a person over a dog and see how it works out for ya.

Creature
April 1, 2009, 11:02 AM
Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the state, depends on the intruder's intentions. In Virginia I can use force, even lethal force, to protect property.

Virginia case law does not support using deadly force to protect personal property.

http://www.virginia1774.org/Page5.html

djohn
April 1, 2009, 11:07 AM
Definitley a K-9 is a officer of the law,Attempt to kill or injur one is the same as trying to resist and hurt a Officer.I was at my brothers house for a BD party my brother was off duty at the time.The next door neighbors son was spaced out on something and got in a domestic with his parents and kicked his father in the chest who just recoverd from a heart attack. when they tried to call the police the kid punched the wall phone and broke it.The sister ran to my brothers asked him to call the police.My brother called then went over tried talking to him and had him calm until the unit showed up.police arrived they kid split running through the backyards that leads to woods they couldn't catch him.one of the officer called for the K-9 when the car showed the officer open the back door and let the dog sent the grass area and said Go find him,the dog was up in woods in a flash.Next we hear screaming from the kid and then the dog cry out.The dirt back ripped the dogs tongue open with his bear hands but the dog remained on him on like flys on you know.When they brought the kid out of the wood besides some nasty bites the kid suffered some lumps and bumps. on the way out:D +1 for the good guys.

officer K-9 rambo is much different then Muffy the family pet.

Creature
April 1, 2009, 11:08 AM
PAX, The other situation is in some areas an armed person on your place has already committed a felony and to posture a violent intent has put the human in fear of their life. if the dog is attacked or shot they remove all doubt.

Not if the shooter has re-holstered his weapon after he shot your dog while on your property. Once his weapon is holstered, he is no longer a imminent threat. That would be a "no shoot" situation then.

Brian Pfleuger
April 1, 2009, 11:08 AM
that dog is as much cop, if not more, then it's handler.

Well, that just plain ridiculous. The "handler" is a sworn, trained human police officer. Just because the law says that hurting that dog is equal to hurting a police officer doesn't mean the dog IS a police officer. It means that they HAVE TO make it a serious crime or there wouldn't be much point in having the dog to begin with.


and i challange you to go hurt a k-9, matter of fact, i double dare you. we'll see who's life they cherish more. btw, ignore all those "he was resisting" bumps and bruises you'll recieve for hurting a fellow officer. your life means way more to those cops then that dogs...

You mean that dog that the routinely send into situations too dangerous for a human? The dog that is used to protect humans? Is that the dog you honestly believe they cherish above human life?

Creature
April 1, 2009, 11:11 AM
Again...this thread is NOT about K9 dogs. This question orignally posed is whether you can shoot someone over your personal pet dog.

SilentSoul
April 1, 2009, 11:12 AM
that is a delicate situation, if he survives the shooting (the uninvited guest) and is able to state that, he was in fear for his life because the dog was about to attack.. there could be a problem, on the other hand, he was uninvited, you had a fenced in yard and signs warning him, at that point he is breaking the law AND drew a gun on private property

he should of turned tail and ran for the fence, get away from the dog, in that situation i would shoot to kill, he obviously has bad intentions, breaking the law by coming onto your property, armed with a firearm and willing to use it, i would be very worried that hes killing the dog because its getting in the way of his bad intentions

not to mention, i care more about the life of most animals.. than i do about most humans, that stranger would be SOL, he should of blew the horn, stayed outside the fence and not ignored the signs

Creature
April 1, 2009, 11:13 AM
No human's life is worth anything even remotely close to that of the mangiest cur.

I disagree. No animal's life is worth more than a human's life. That is a point of law. And I am surprised that as a moderator you are publicly espousing this line of thinking.

Brian Pfleuger
April 1, 2009, 11:17 AM
Again...this thread is NOT about K9 dogs. This question orignally posed is whether you can shoot someone over your personal pet dog.

I agree. It's just that his statement is ridiculous.


Here's how I see the OP. Ask yourself this

Your child is playing in the yard and someone walks onto my property and murders him. The BG is in the process of leaving. Do I have the right to use deadly force? Shoot the guy in the back? Yes. Without a doubt, in NY state, he has committed murder and is escaping, deadly force is authorized.

Same thing, only it's a dog instead of your child. You shoot the guy in the back. Is THAT legal? Not a chance. You go to jail. Therefore, it is obvious that in the eyes of the law protecting a human or an animal is different.

There is no reason to believe that it would not be equally different in the seconds BEFORE he commits the act.

hogdogs
April 1, 2009, 11:17 AM
While a dog is legally classed as "property". I feel I am "CHARGED" with their care as much as I am my children. I am legally required to keep them healthy or face animal cruelty charges... same as not trying keep my kids healthy. Extra holes in my dogs is obviously not healthy.
I think I place a high regard for the life of respectful humans... I would never kill what I perceive to be a "good" person. But I have little regard for any human who has made it common personal behavior to prey upon any good person.
If I seen a person cruelly torturing any innocent creature I would be a very mean person. I am likely going to be judged a bad person by the "Big Guy" for this mind set and will pay the price then.

Creature
April 1, 2009, 11:22 AM
Deadly force to prevent escape? That is whole other can of worms...you should read this from the FBI Bulletin:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2194/is_n3_v63/ai_15353041/

An excerpt:

Constitutional Authority and Limitations

The constitutional authority to use deadly force to prevent escape from arrest was defined by the U.S. Supreme Court in Tennessee v. Garner(3) in 1985. In reviewing the constitutionality of a State statute permitting the use of deadly force to prevent the escape of all felony suspects, the Court reasoned that if a criminal suspect "poses no immediate threat to the officer and no threat to others, the harm resulting from failing to apprehend him does not justify the use of deadly force to do so."(4)

On the other hand, the Court held that deadly force may be used when "necessary to prevent escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."(5) (emphasis added).

Creature
April 1, 2009, 11:26 AM
I am legally required to keep them healthy or face animal cruelty charges... same as not trying keep my kids healthy.

Dogs and children are not held to the same standard. Dogs are euthanized on a wholesale basis everyday.

csmsss
April 1, 2009, 11:26 AM
Creature, are you arguing that someone who has just committed an act of murder and is still armed is NOT an imminent threat to others?

Creature
April 1, 2009, 11:28 AM
Shooting and killing a dog is not murder.

ElectricHellfire
April 1, 2009, 11:28 AM
I have two Chihuahuas so anyone attempting to shoot them would just be doing so out of meanness.

I don't do meanness. Especially to me or mine by some stranger on my own property. Thankfully in Texas we don't have to retreat.

Shooting and killing a dog is not murder.

Neither is it murder for someone to slap my wife in face. But you'd end up just as dead.

csmsss
April 1, 2009, 11:32 AM
Thankfully in Texas we don't have to retreat.Thankfully, in Texas, you can also defend your little guys, using lethal force if necessary.

Creature
April 1, 2009, 11:36 AM
Neither is it murder for someone to slap my wife in face. But you'd end up just as dead.

And you would spend the rest of your adult life behind bars for killing the person who slapped your wife.

Sixer
April 1, 2009, 11:36 AM
Shooting and killing a dog is not murder.

Well whatever you want to call it... I take someone killing my dog while intruding on my property ( see OP and scenario ) as a direct threat to my personal well being. Enough of a threat to warrant the use of deadly force.

Creature
April 1, 2009, 11:38 AM
Enough of a threat to warrant the use of deadly force.

Not if the dirtbag's weapon is re-holstered its not.

hogdogs
April 1, 2009, 11:46 AM
Creature, a person doesn't even need a weapon in florida to be shot deader than a door nail for threatening the health of my family or myself. So if they are willing to attack a bulldog with any means available to them I am safe to think I am next...
He can commence kickin' my dog with his hands in his pockets and still come after me next and I don't think I will be waiting to take the beating...
Sux to live in some states as an honest god fearin' man and even worse to live as a criminal in others...
Brent

djohn
April 1, 2009, 11:56 AM
Lets say a stranger Walks up on your property now hypothetically speaking lets say you have a electric invisable fence that keeps the dog in yrd.The guy approaches may be he say hello how you doing may be he says nothing until up close.Now lets say your dog feels threated of his or her territory and charges a full out attack.That stranger fears his life is in danger or bodily harm ,perhaps he been attacked before,perhaps he didn;t see your dog before he came on the property,and he pulls a gun and klills your dog.Now you draw to shoot him and perhaps its not fatal and he returns fire and kills you or perhaps a miss and the stray bullet pass through your home killing may be your wife or child.what if that stranger was going to ask for direction he was lost or he wanted some info on the car parked on the street l that has a sale sign in the window and he thought it belonged to you.A lot of maybe here but you just never know.

Creature
April 1, 2009, 12:03 PM
Serious reexamination of what constitutes an imminent threat and the use of deadly force to protect property is in order for some here. A dog is not considered a family member in any state. If you cant claim a dog as a dependent on your taxes, it aint a family member.

JohnPaul
April 1, 2009, 12:03 PM
property would have to be "put to sleep" by lead poisoning, the dog would have nothing to do with it. But what if you are out walking and a dog goes after me, I would use a knife or gun to protect myself,... interesting

Mike Irwin
April 1, 2009, 12:05 PM
"I disagree. No animal's life is worth more than a human's life. That is a point of law. And I am surprised that as a moderator you are publicly espousing this line of thinking."

Good. You have a different opinion. That's your right.


And what, just because I have a position on staff I can't have a contrarian opinion on something? Gee, that's a new one.

My opinions about the 'human' race should be well known to anyone who has been posting here for a long time, as this is not the first time this kind of question has come up.

Sixer
April 1, 2009, 12:07 PM
Not if the dirtbag's weapon is re-holstered its not.

You can keep making up different scenarios as you go, but holstered or not, if an uninvited guest kills my dog he/she likely does not come in peace. Im not saying that I would shoot someone just for killing my dog.

I'm just imagining hearing a gunshot on my property and coming out to find my dead dog and a man with a gun... At that point I would have reason to fear for my life.

Mike Irwin
April 1, 2009, 12:08 PM
"A dog is not considered a family member in any state. If you cant claim a dog as a dependent on your taxes, it aint a family member."

When I turned 18 my father could no longer claim me on his taxes, but I still lived at home.

Does that mean I was no longer a family member?

I suppose that you also have definitive case law that clearly states that under no circumstances can a companion animal be considered a family member?

In order to be equally applicable, it would need to be from the Federal court system.

In fact, pets DO have at least some "human" rights under law - such as the right to inherit property from their owners. Pets can be made the sole inheritor of an estate. Of course a conservator has to be appointed to administer the holding. But, you know what, that sounds a lot like what happens when a child inherits...

KLRANGL
April 1, 2009, 12:09 PM
This high sense of nobility and reverence we seem to imbue in "humanity" is as misplaced as it is wasted.
Someone after me own heart...

"Well, if he's an angel, all right then... But he damn well must be a killer angel. Colonel, darling, you're a lovely man. I see a vast difference between us, yet I admire you, lad. You're an idealist, praise be. The truth is, Colonel... There is no "divine spark". There's many a man alive of no more of value than a dead dog. Believe me. When you've seen them hang each other the way I have back in the Old Country. Equality? What I'm fighting for is to prove I'm a better man than many of them. Where have you seen this "divine spark" in operation, Colonel? Where have you noted this magnificent equality? No two things on Earth are equal or have an equal chance. Bit a leaf, nor a tree. There's many a man worse than me, and some better..."
-Buster Kilrain in Gettysburg

hogdogs
April 1, 2009, 12:11 PM
Lets take the hypothetical scenario...
Stranger comes on my property armed he has committed felony "Armed Trespass" already then he "Brandishes" said firearm... Shoots my dog "Criminal destruction of private property" And I hear the shot... Hear is where the hypothetical ends... I open the door and send 2 ounces of hot lead at his center of mass as I am in fear of my families health and well being... He spins and raises weapon and is not already "stopped" he gets 2 more ounces and I will follow this with one more before I go after more ammo. I practice enough to be fairly certain he will be hit a minimum of 4 out 5 shots... Those who are allowed on my place armed know full well who they are... any one else better find a place to leave their gun off my place. If they just coming over to be neighborly they don't need to commit multiple felonies to do it... I do not have the invisible fence and I do have 3 indoor/outdoor dogs who will run up to anyone if they are out at the time. If these same dogs leave my property and get shot by the same guy I will not complain as a red pit cross coming at you on your place or public roadway is grounds for self defense.
As you see I am not only a hard nose about "ME AND MINE" I am also brutally fair about it.
Brent

Creature
April 1, 2009, 12:11 PM
Good. You have a different opinion. That's your right.

...its also a point of law.

When I turned 18 my father could no longer claim me on his taxes, but I still lived at home.

Does that mean I was no longer a family member?

No...it means that your pop can not longer claim you as a dependent which in turn means Uncle Sam can tax your income directly.

KLRANGL
April 1, 2009, 12:17 PM
Man, you guys are seriously distracting me from my Controls lab :p

I open the door and send 2 ounces of hot lead at his center of mass as I am in fear of my families health and well being
Do you not think that maybe starting a gunfight would further endanger your family? No offense intended here, im honestly curious. I just think that if my dog is already dead, and the intruder still presents a valid thread, I send everyone upstairs into one room, get everyone armed, and call the police. Maybe not the most noble thing to do, but it just seems like the safer bet for all...

Mike:
Maybe I missed over what you said, but Im a little confused as to what you think the correct course of action would be for the OP...

David Armstrong
April 1, 2009, 12:24 PM
There are an awful lot of folks here advocating breaking the law by lying to the police about what happened. That in and of itself should indicate the answers are wrong.

Definitley a K-9 is a officer of the law,Attempt to kill or injur one is the same as trying to resist and hurt a Officer.
I'm aware of no state that allows a person to be charged wiwth murder for killing a K-9.

No animal's life is worth more than a human's life. That is a point of law.
Creature and I disagree at times, but that is right on the money. A very few states MIGHT allow the killing under their property laws, but even those are pretty restricted most of the time.

Mike Irwin
April 1, 2009, 12:26 PM
"its also a point of law."

Incorrect, at least as a definitive, all encompassing statement such as you're intending it to be.

As has been stated a number of times, there are more than a few states that consider deadly force to protect PROPERTY to be a justifiable use of said deadly force.

Under law in most, if not all, states, pets are considered to be PROPERTY.

Your apparent assertion that no use of force to protect property under any circumstance is justifiable is wrong both on its face and in fact.

Brian Pfleuger
April 1, 2009, 12:27 PM
We seem to have strayed a bit from the OP:

Someone comes, uninvited, on your rural property, your dog runs out barking, acting as an alarm bell, interloper pulls gun to shoot dog...barking with hackles up


Note from the highlights. This is a rural situation. There could be a hundred reasons this guy has a gun. Depending on whose property it is, it may or may not be well marked, a dog runs up to him "barking with hackles up". The guy "pulls gun" (this means he hasn't shot yet folks).


There is ZERO justification for shooting this guy at this very second. You are on extremely shaky legal ground AFTER he pulls the trigger. You don't stand a snowballs chance in hell BEFORE he pulls the trigger.

If we are considering it "defense of property" then what happens if the guy in on your property shooting at trees? Can you shoot him? After all, he's "destroying property".

hogdogs
April 1, 2009, 12:28 PM
KL, I would not start the gun fight... the person discharging a firearm in a threatening, felonious manner started the gun fight...
Brent

lomaxanderson
April 1, 2009, 12:29 PM
my dog would bark and hold you there ...he would only bite if you place hands on one of us...If you come on my property with a weapon and pull it you can expect to recieve the same...and I would assume we were next after you shot my dog so I would shoot you ...even first if I get your attention and you don't drop the weapon ...Let the Lawyer sort it out but one less bad guy to reoffend...I certianly value my dogs life more than that of an Armed Intruder...that would be easy to prove...With gun,Intruding on my property=Good shoot ...

hogdogs
April 1, 2009, 12:42 PM
Pizza, If the guy is simply trespassing with a firearm shooting my trees I would use the presence of my firearm to be ready if they do not comply with orders to drop the fire arm, kneel, hands behind your head and slither away from the weapon... down on your face and await the LEO who is going to arrest you for multiple felonies of which I will press charges and cooperate with the DA... If they fail to comply I will use varying levels of force to insure compliance. MY RURAL PLACE... MY RULES! Dog or no dog felony armed trespass and brandishing a firearm and possibly poaching charges will insue!
Florida does not require fences or signage to mark lines... it is the duty of the public to avoid trespassing. But my place is a 5+ acre rectangle of which obvious boundaries exist. I won't go ape noodles over the first foot or 3 but blatant trespass is a different story.
Brent

Brian Pfleuger
April 1, 2009, 12:44 PM
Pizza, If the guy is...


Alright, but legally speaking you would be required to act the same way whether it be "property" or a dog, since the law does not consider your dog to be anything more than "property". So far as I can tell from the laws.

Creature
April 1, 2009, 12:49 PM
As has been stated a number of times, there are more than a few states that consider deadly force to protect PROPERTY to be a justifiable use of said deadly force.

Under law in most, if not all, states, pets are considered to be PROPERTY.

That has been my assertion all along. I also stated that our state of VA is not one of those states where protecting property with deadly force is justified. You asserted that you would do just that.

hogdogs
April 1, 2009, 12:50 PM
well shooting into the tree tops has not imparted the same level of personal threat induced fear as putting bullets in an animal... Thus he will have a pass to comply for the tree murder that is revoked if they shoot a dog... Shooting the dog on my property really sends a signal to me that I am next that pine sap oozing from a gunshot wound just doesn't equal:o...
Brent

Creature
April 1, 2009, 12:51 PM
Incorrect, at least as a definitive, all encompassing statement such as you're intending it to be.

okay...where would this not be the case as pertains to this conversation?

Creature
April 1, 2009, 12:53 PM
What state will I be arrested and charged with murder if I flushed a pet gold fish?

OldMarksman
April 1, 2009, 12:54 PM
You have the right to protect your property... technically your pet is your property.

Right on both counts, but in most states you may not use deadly force to protect property except where "protection of property" involves an action within an occupied dwelling or vehicle.

That's true in Missouri where I live. I have been told that the intent of the law was not to allow me to shoot to "protect the property", as the antis have proclaimed, but to establish unlawful entry as a reason to believe that imminent danger to persons exists and to eliminate the requirement to retreat. Came about as the result of some bad case law, I'm told.

I am aware that in Georgia one may employ deadly force to protect property. One may also use deadly force to protect tangible, moveable property in Texas at night if it is necessary.

There may be other examples but I'm not aware of them.

Sixer
April 1, 2009, 01:06 PM
What state will I be arrested and charged with murder if I flushed a pet gold fish?

If that pet goldfish belonged to Chuck Norris you wouldn't be LUCKY enough to get arrested. You would likely be on the business end of a lethal roundhouse kick to the dome...

Oh wait, are we talking about guns and tactics and stuff? Nevermind.

Brian Pfleuger
April 1, 2009, 01:19 PM
Shooting the dog on my property really sends a signal to me that I am next that pine sap oozing from a gunshot wound just doesn't equal...


On that point you may have a valid legal argument.

It's not one I would PERSONALLY want to stake my freedom on, but it might work. I'd guess you would need more, something like the guy pointing the gun at you or yelling "You're next!"


All this assuming, of course, that the guy actually DOES shoot the dog, which in the OP he has not done.

ElectricHellfire
April 1, 2009, 02:13 PM
And you would spend the rest of your adult life behind bars for killing the person who slapped your wife.

So, a violent physical attack on my wife, or me, is not enough of of a threat for me to end it with deadly force?

I'm sorry, maybe the laws are different where you live but in Texas, I believe that might fall under threatening my and or my families personal safety with intent to do physical harm.

hogdogs
April 1, 2009, 02:20 PM
Hellfire, I am with you on this'n... No man better even bow up on my wife... I wouldn't even need a weapon.. just knowin I am at her mercy if I don't defend her honor is motivation enuff to go nutso. I have enuff skills at my disposal from handling a variety of mean animals to pretty much take control of yer average man... and some above average ones too...
Brent

Creature
April 1, 2009, 02:32 PM
So, a violent physical attack on my wife, or me, is not enough of of a threat for me to end it with deadly force?

A slap in the face is not the same as intending to inflict serious bodily harm or death and, thus, does not warrant the use of deadly force.

Capt Charlie
April 1, 2009, 02:34 PM
Amazing! This is approaching 100 posts in less than a day. That's got to be a record!

The OP's question was an interesting one, but also an emotionally charged one, and I probably should've seen this coming. It's gone from a question that was only remotely related to T&T to begin with, to "I'm gonna do this or that to anyone that touches my dog/wife/kids".

Closed, while the train's still on the tracks.

pax
April 1, 2009, 10:10 PM
Forgive this use of moderator privilege. I just wanted to add a link for those wondering about the legal status of police dogs.

http://www.k9fleck.org/articles/dog_protect.html

They aren't human, and are not treated as human under the law in any state.

pax