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hogdogs
March 30, 2009, 09:22 AM
I seen it on discovery and felt the info is pretty close to accurate IMHO...
Most of the show is on you tube in short segments. It includes a little hog doggin as well as info on attacks etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlMR8WHNxaQ&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWWD4kEH02Q&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZB5b-jX10Q&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzMGXwB2HA8&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oF70bV62go&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vrSu5be8R4&feature=channel
I am sure I missed some segments but here is enuff to get ya'll started.
Hope ya'll enjoy as well as realize that when folks get to go on a "shooting spree" or hog doggin' it is a needed "service" and not cruelty...;)
Brent

hogdogs
March 30, 2009, 09:42 AM
One more...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFFEjEnupZ8&feature=channel
Brent

mtnm
March 30, 2009, 11:54 PM
Thanks Brent. :)

I'll watch those tomorrow. My ole slow computer takes 30- 45 mins to download one U Tube 3 min video. :D

Hirlau
March 31, 2009, 12:10 AM
Thanks, interesting info.:)

onthejon55
March 31, 2009, 12:15 AM
so how long till they make it to Indiana? i cnt wait to be able to mow down a few of these beast

Double Naught Spy
March 31, 2009, 07:08 AM
Pig bomb true info? Yeah, like the part of the show that said the pigs have the potential to grow to be 1500 lbs and run 70 mph. Sure there were some parts that were true, but some were awfully sensationalized.

They kept showing brief images of hogzilla to support the notion that these animals can get huge. The only problem there is that hogzilla wasn't a feral hog and didn't actually run very quickly.

It might have been on the Discover channel but is wasn't very scientific. It was more like a little bit of science and a whole lot of National Enquirer.

hogdogs
March 31, 2009, 07:43 AM
On the jon, They are getting a foot hold in Ohio and Misery, so it won't be much longer and you may get your wish!;)

The hogzilla shot by the man (not the kid with wheel gun in .500) was indeed a feral hog. Complete with the tusks that a farm pig doesn't have as the farmer keeps them cut back for safety. A hog that large does need a bunch of food and a hunting lease with year around corn and surrounded by crop lands is ideal for this...
And a feral hog no matter their size is ever a lumbering sloth... If they are able to survive they are healthy enuff to run and fight.

I will re-watch the clips to find the citing of 70 mph as I heard 35 quoted. I don't know their actual speed capability but it is faster than most any dog around. The dogs must stay quiet to surprise the hogs or they will never bay one up.
Brent

SilentSoul
March 31, 2009, 09:17 AM
We had bay dogs that kept up with a truck doing about 40mph down a dirt road, don't know if that was all they had or not, and i saw some of those same dogs outrun by a hog easily, in a relatively short sprint anyway

That info is odd, i had no idea the numbers were increasing like that, things havent seemed to of changed around here, always been a lot of hogs in places, but no bombs have went off thus far

Double Naught Spy
March 31, 2009, 01:20 PM
The hogzilla shot by the man (not the kid with wheel gun in .500) was indeed a feral hog. Complete with the tusks that a farm pig doesn't have as the farmer keeps them cut back for safety. A hog that large does need a bunch of food and a hunting lease with year around corn and surrounded by crop lands is ideal for this...
And a feral hog no matter their size is ever a lumbering sloth... If they are able to survive they are healthy enuff to run and fight.

A domestic hog that escapes will grow big tusks. Big deal. Even so, was hogzilla clocked? I don't think so.

hogdogs
March 31, 2009, 01:29 PM
DNS, I watched all the snippets I posted and found only 30mph mentioned. Hogzilla size hogs are either released recently barnyard swine or a feral hog with plenty of feed. I have seen very feral 350+ pounders hanging on bottomed out 350 pound scales so a 500 as mentioned in the episode is plausible.
I also found nothing in the episode that is far from accurate. If you have some info to share that dismisses the show as National Enquirer fallacy, please do post links. I have only been regularly chasing hogs for 5 1/2 years so I have a lot to learn...
As for the aggression it is also true that the feral hogs are getting tuffer. They were rarely mixed with russian blood 30-40 years ago and that was in very small areas surrounding "game preserves". Many "sport" hog doggers have released many hogs after capture and they frown on being caught again by dogs.
A bay dog we recently traded off to a fella "got the horn" with a 200+ boar hog. She went in to assist the bulldog, as they normally do, and as soon as she had an ear the hog tossed her up and off and bounced her 3 times in the front of the chest with a tusk and she expired in less than 40 seconds. My father used to help hog doggers in the 60's as they protected the west central florida orange, tomato and strawberry farms. He said "We never needed none of that "cut gear" (cut collars and cut vests) or first aid back then... He seen a few cuts on dogs but not the routine dog wrecking slobs we see today.
Brent

publius
March 31, 2009, 01:33 PM
you don't want hogs in your area. Hope that they won't come soon. They will come, it's just a matter of time. They rapidly reproduce and are destructive in most every imaginable way. they tear up crop fields, (I mean it looks like someone pulled a disc through the area. something many people don't know is they are also predatory, they will eat a newborn fawn, turkey eggs.. etc. I'm covered with the damn things here in Texas and they are almost to my place in Mississippi. I hope they don't get there soon but they're within 1 mile so I expect them this year. there's nothing you can do about it, you can shoot them, trap them whatever, but they reproduce so fast that you can't get rid of them.

hogdogs
March 31, 2009, 01:35 PM
A domestic hog that escapes will grow big tusks.
And that is a "feral hog"... It doesn't matter one day first generation or 50 generations deep... feral is feral... No one said that the hogzilla size hog could run super fast. A hog that large has no natural predators and can easily kill a man with a head butt... no tusks needed. It takes a year or more for the tusks to regrow to the point where the wetters and tuskers will meet to sharpen them so feral for better than a year is what he was... To survive wild like that he was athletic enuff to travel... I got a nice shiny 1977 Marlin .30-30 I will give you if you can outrun a mad, scared 200 pound boar hog!:D No tree climbing allowed!:eek:
Brent

Double Naught Spy
March 31, 2009, 01:37 PM
Okay, so you watched the snippets. Great. I watched the show. I wasn't the only one who noticed the 70 mph statement either.

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2631821#post2631821

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=438839

As far as outrunning a 200 lb boar and the offer of the new rifle, thanks. I take it that you meant that I had to outrun it on foot, right? Given that humans are slower than so many animals due to bipedalism, it really is a fool's offer. Hell, I watched a 3 legged German shepherd run down a kid on a 10 speed bike back in junior high. Even non-feral adult pigs can run down humans.

hogdogs
March 31, 2009, 01:54 PM
DNS, you are cordially invited to join us on a hunt and even if we don't get a hog I will get you to a pen to see one with your own eyes and we can rope one out for you to handle just to see what these buggers are made of. I am not trying to argue just enlighten... And trust me when I promise that you will leave knowing these ain't grampa's farm pig even if they are genetically similar.
I noticed on the michigan link a referral to a Monster Quest episode... Different show. I seen both. I also noted one guy pointed out possibly 70Kph and that is likely what was said but someone thought they heard MPH is likely what occurred... I doubt even the dumbest of person would suggest on world wide TV that the cheetah had swine for challenger as worlds fastest land animal.
I also noticed someone from Michigan (not the feral hog capital of the USA) say maybe for 100 yards...
Sorry but when my dogs end up tracked 5-7 miles down track and whooped tired and no hog.... These hogs can run at speed for a long ways and rest for 30 or so seconds and repeat. They also get through the thick cover far better than any dog... Body design is superior to dogs for this. remember these hogs have very little fat on them.
These are the most densely muscled animals I have ever handled and this includes cougars and tigers in captivity that play with a bowling ball daily.
Brent

hogdogs
March 31, 2009, 01:56 PM
I have a buddy who has a bay dog that lost a front leg/shoulder to a hog and he still gets after it... The guy said when the dog decides he is handicapped he will retire him from the rotation but until then the dog can go as long as he wants to get in the dog box...
Brent

kwells6
March 31, 2009, 02:34 PM
this is true stuff... here in arkansas, we've been having issues with these for years. Even Fort Chaffee has invited hunters to kill as many as they can find.

madmo44mag
March 31, 2009, 02:35 PM
Been a long time since I hunted hog.
Lots of fun with plenty of excitement once the hunt begins.
Never hunted one with a rifle always large bore magnum pistols.

Double Naught Spy
March 31, 2009, 06:32 PM
hogdogs, while we may disagree, I do wholly appreciate the invitation. The problem is I have my own hog problem to deal with and I can't quite justify helping you with your hog problem when I haven't handled my own.

hogdogs
March 31, 2009, 06:48 PM
:D My offer to you and the open invitation I have had for years is not for need of "help" as I do not even expect the visitor to assist us. It really is an offer of a different experience. You have a hog problem yet you disagree with the facts of their biology and ability? Are you trapping, shooting or having hog dogs doing this? What state is this problem in? I am willing to share any and all I have learned about trapping and doggin' them. I only trapped them for a year or so for a total of 150-200 trapped...
Brent

freakintoguns
March 31, 2009, 07:02 PM
that show made getting a .50 Beowulf AR more inticing. its only a matter of time before we're doing some serious hog huntin here in NM.


hogs, if i ever get a chance to go to FL for a car show i might just have to look ya up man id love to go ona hog hunt with ya!

sniperinky
March 31, 2009, 07:07 PM
That makes me sick! Youtube should yank those, and I complained to their management. If you are in those videos Hotdogs, you should really think about you're legacy.

hogdogs
March 31, 2009, 07:20 PM
Nope those are discovery Channel submissions! And the show managed to be considered documentary... Did you notice the state biologist that spoke several times? By the way I am a state fish and game listed nuisance wildlife removal service as are many MANY MANY other southern hog doggers and trappers. Have a great day!

Junior and I are also solely responsible for saving farmers and landowners many hundreds of thousands of dollars in damages and have never charged a penny... It is called "providing a service"....
Brent

Shorthair
March 31, 2009, 09:47 PM
There is an open shoot to kill option for anyone encountering a wild hog here in Michigan, at any time of the year. I would gladly provide such a service to my state.

hogdogs
March 31, 2009, 10:00 PM
Shorthair, what regions of the big mitten are getting populations? I involved in a small feeder pig operation in the late 70's early 80's in the thumb. Pig prices were hurting and in the mid to late 80's I remember $.08 per pound. A farmer cannot keep feed or fences up at that price so alot of hogs were released to starve in the wild or survive and others just escaped as the farmers did their best to keep them contained. This was also the same time the pork/hog industry in the south east went to crap as developers offered more for land than farmers could earn working the farms...
This is my theory to why the "Pig Bomb" exploded in the late 90's... 3 litters every 14 months equates to 8-10 LARGE generational expansions ...
But what do I know I am but a dumb redneck...
Brent

Shorthair
March 31, 2009, 10:50 PM
They are finding them all over the state, there is a map that shows just about all counties have had sightings. Here: http://www.michigan.gov/images/emergingdiseases/FSMap_207952_7.jpg
Open hunting in these counties:
http://www.michigan.gov/images/emergingdiseases/FSopencountiesMDAmap081507_205747_7.jpg
More info:
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10363-155439--,00.html
We have a huge sugar beet industry here, as well as a lot of corn, and they will tear up a field...
No doubt a lot of pigs escaped that were going to be eaten, but there are a lot of them that got out from game preserves, Russian boars. I really detest canned big game "hunting", this is only one of the crappy side effects.

Double Naught Spy
March 31, 2009, 10:55 PM
You have a hog problem yet you disagree with the facts of their biology and ability?

Did you notice the state biologist that spoke several times?

I noticed the biologist. I also noticed the geneticist. She specifically stated that she didn't have the evidence to substantiate the claim the Russian boar connection. So much of the show was dedicated to saying that the changes in pigs were due to interbreeding with Russian boars and yet that absolute proof for this, the genetics, simply are not there...not yet anyway.

Yes, we do have hogs that resemble Russian boars. What was not considered in the show was if the similar characteristics discussed were a matter of genetic influx or evolutionary pressures. What pigs are most likely to survive and reproduce most successfully in the wild? Are they the shorter legged, shorter snouted, less aggressive, smaller pigs? Probably not. Those are the pigs likely being selected against, biologically speaking.

Did you notice how they identified a Russian boar on the game camera? That was one hell of an identification. They didn't get anything but eye shine. So you can't even identify the type of animal in the image, but they were able to identify it as a specific breed and noted features not in evidence such as long legs, long snout, weight, head size, etc. That isn't biology. That isn't good biology in the least.

The show also claimed that as a worst case scenario that the pig population could double every few months. Mathematically, that may be true, but then again, that isn't reality and so they are making a considerable sensationalized claim.

Strangely, the biologist noted that pigs can breed as early as 5 months of age and sows can produce 3 litters of an average of 6 young per litter ever 14 months and that there is nothing else out there that can keep up with that. What he is saying is that pigs have an "r selection" reproductive pattern (e.g., multiple large litters per year vs. K selected species that tend to produce smaller litters less frequently such as deer, for example). So while K selected species don't reproduce anywhere near as fast as hogs, there are many r selected species that reproduce as fast or faster than hogs. So, there are definitely other animals that can keep up with or surpass pig reproduction success.

So the worst case scenario for a lot of animal populations would have them breeding at rates much faster than hogs, mathematically speaking. In this regard, hogs are not unique.

I also noted how the show seemed to correlate the Pig Bomb in the US as being due to the influx of Russian boar genes into the non-Russian feral hog gene pool in recent years. Strangely, it was noted that there was a pig bomb phenomenon in the Old World as well. What influx of genetic material is being introduced there to cause their pig population explosion to co-occur with the one in the US?

So do I doubt the biology? That depends what you are asking. I doubt the biology expressed in the show that seemed to play up a lot of pseudo facts and innuendo that just don't have the biology behind them to be considered a valid claim. In short, they sensationalized the information considerably.

hogdogs
March 31, 2009, 11:35 PM
First, I thank you for keeping this debate civil... I rather enjoy a good fair debate by two upstanding men...

Point by point...
You have a hog problem yet you disagree with the facts of their biology and ability?
I mainly meant the speed of all feral hogs and growth potential of all feral hogs in general...

Did you notice the state biologist that spoke several times?
While you bring up a good point I will address next, this statement was aimed at the poster who took it upon himself to assume these were homemade vids rather than professionally made discovery channel film.

I noticed the biologist. I also noticed the geneticist. She specifically stated that she didn't have the evidence to substantiate the claim the Russian boar connection. So much of the show was dedicated to saying that the changes in pigs were due to interbreeding with Russian boars and yet that absolute proof for this, the genetics, simply are not there...not yet anyway.
Body shape aside, one give away is the coloration. the blond chin bar is one aspect that is breed specific as is the white band of the Hampshire or bright red of the duroc.... Another eur-asian (russian) trait is the pronounced high humped back above the shoulders...

Yes, we do have hogs that resemble Russian boars. What was not considered in the show was if the similar characteristics discussed were a matter of genetic influx or evolutionary pressures. What pigs are most likely to survive and reproduce most successfully in the wild? Are they the shorter legged, shorter snouted, less aggressive, smaller pigs? Probably not. Those are the pigs likely being selected against, biologically speaking.
Hogs in feral state need only several generations to adapt pysically to their surroundings and survival needs. The longer legs, narrower body and long snout is present very soon as it aids travel and the long snout aids in rooting food. A barnyard hog develops shorter legs and wider body as well as short snout and wide head to take up more space at the feed trough. Feral hogs will revert to barnyard shape in just a few generations of being re-domesticated.

Did you notice how they identified a Russian boar on the game camera? That was one hell of an identification. They didn't get anything but eye shine. So you can't even identify the type of animal in the image, but they were able to identify it as a specific breed and noted features not in evidence such as long legs, long snout, weight, head size, etc. That isn't biology. That isn't good biology in the least.

I not only took note of the game cam picture but all the hogs being cared for to preserve the specie in the minutes leading up to that point. I also noted the characteristics like coloration and the high humped back. the extra hairy body may or may not be climate adaptation as all feral swine is far hairier than the domestic raised hogs.

The show also claimed that as a worst case scenario that the pig population could double every few months. Mathematically, that may be true, but then again, that isn't reality and so they are making a considerable sensationalized claim.
since there are no natural predators of feral hogs other than humans and they seem to be immune to even the most venomous snakes (they routinely eat rattlers) it is quite realistic. It is also true, plausible and expected for a sow to drop 18 pigs ever 14 months on average (not maximum) it is really an issue. Even with all the hog hunters in my area, we do not ever seem to reduce the numbers and there has never been much importation of any numbers of feral hogs of any breed since the spanish explorers....

Strangely, the biologist noted that pigs can breed as early as 5 months of age and sows can produce 3 litters of an average of 6 young per litter ever 14 months and that there is nothing else out there that can keep up with that. What he is saying is that pigs have an "r selection" reproductive pattern (e.g., multiple large litters per year vs. K selected species that tend to produce smaller litters less frequently such as deer, for example). So while K selected species don't reproduce anywhere near as fast as hogs, there are many r selected species that reproduce as fast or faster than hogs. So, there are definitely other animals that can keep up with or surpass pig reproduction success. So the worst case scenario for a lot of animal populations would have them breeding at rates much faster than hogs, mathematically speaking. In this regard, hogs are not unique.

taken in verbatim context you are correct but if you realize that what wasn't said is there are no INVASIVE species with ZERO natural predators that are of this "R selection" type breeding at this rate. Rats, mice, rabbits, coons and possum all have a decent level of predation keeping their numbers in check... So they really are very unique...

I also noted how the show seemed to correlate the Pig Bomb in the US as being due to the influx of Russian boar genes into the non-Russian feral hog gene pool in recent years. Strangely, it was noted that there was a pig bomb phenomenon in the Old World as well. What influx of genetic material is being introduced there to cause their pig population explosion to co-occur with the one in the US?
That is auto-answered if you realize that hogs don't have to swim from russia/asia to reach the "old world" of western europe. And the same "noble types" that introduced alot of russian blood to the eastern USA (the Metcalfs and Rockefellers come to mind here) in the early 20th century were of the same high brow society that were "royalty" that imported russian hogs from their home territory to the western european country side for the "sportsmen" of their time in the 1800's and/or before...

So do I doubt the biology? That depends what you are asking. I doubt the biology expressed in the show that seemed to play up a lot of pseudo facts and innuendo that just don't have the biology behind them to be considered a valid claim. In short, they sensationalized the information considerably.
I will say that many areas of feral hog population have less of the russian type traits and more of the domestic breed traits. Both physical form and coloration as well as aggressive or passive behaviors. Some areas really show the breed specific coloration of their original preferred barnyard stock.

We also have the "hybrid tooth"...
http://www.hunting-in-texas.com/learnhogs.htm
Scroll down to "How old is that pig?"

One last thing I point out is that to prove the adaptability of feral swine, is in the offspring... whether or not any russian traits are present in the coloration, the young will likely be born with a reddish color with dark horizontal stripes like all whitetail deer are born spotted. This coloration will change as they ween to what ever they are going to be as youth and adults...
Thanks again and my regards to you and yours...
Brent

monkey95
April 1, 2009, 12:44 AM
Probably wrong place Hogdogs, but I have read your posts regarding your use of bay and hold dogs. I happen to be watching a show that states dogos(were bred) to track and hold. Are u familiar with this breed? Do the dogos combine the bay and hold dogs into one, or is training the issue? Those dogos look amazing, too bad my wife loves labs.

hogdogs
April 1, 2009, 01:02 AM
I am quite familiar with the Dogo Argentina. They are a multi use dog and jaguar is one of the prey they will hunt.
They can and do hunt on their own with out the need for bay dogs but it is not too common to see it done this way in North America as this ability requires a much larger parcel of land. Bay dogs are flat out much faster at closing distance silently. the dogo was designed for 10-100 thousand acre ranches.
One down side is that the American Blood lines are being hampered by "show breeders" watering down the intended uses. Another negative for me is that they often "fight" the prey which results in excessive injury to the hogs due to "re-biting" rather than a straight up hold. Bruised hams is a bad thing IMHO. Not all are like this by any means and many bulldogs don't make the cut for this same reason. Being a 110 to 140 pound dog they also can get buggered up in the thick stuff or unable to get through the barbed wire fast enough to keep up with the hog.
My biggest gripe against the breed is their Breed confirmation standards. The dog is only allowed a pirate patch or small spot of dark. Otherwise it must be all white. This is automatically culling a large number of dogs that would possibly be superior performers before they can be proven either way. Second is white dogs are carrying a recessive (i think that is the correct term) gene (but not albino) that seems to cause a higher percentage of deafness (like the dalmation and pure white domestic cats) and sensitive skin issues like sun sensitivity and food allergies. I have often asked Dogo breeders to supply me a few overly pigmented skin/ fur colored pups so I can have some bigger dogs for certain needs. None have cooperated. They are an awesome dog to look at and a good one is a monster on a hog! Nuttin like a 140 pound white bulldog!:D
Brent

impalacustom
April 1, 2009, 02:27 AM
The Game and Parks are trying to exterminate all of them here in Nebraska, and honestly they have done a pretty good job, something like 200 killed last year and only 50 something this year. A couple had tested positive for pseudo rabies though.

I have the answer to solve the problem though. Repeal the 1934 NFA law and lets go hunting :) Bacon for everyone.

Double Naught Spy
April 1, 2009, 06:41 AM
We also have the "hybrid tooth"...
http://www.hunting-in-texas.com/learnhogs.htm
Scroll down to "How old is that pig?"

That pig is 4 years old. Why? However, it is difficult to ascertain the age of the pig in that particular image because they don't show the 3rd molar (identified in non-dental terms elsewhere on the page as tooth #6).

FYI, you and I are arguing two different points, although you seen to have taken exception to my points because of the basis of your experience. The Pig Bomb show was generally a sensationalized show. What they were claiming based on what they presented didn't hold water in many cases. In other words, much of the info isn't "true info" as the thread title claims.

You are then backing up the show with what you see in the field. What you see in the field doesn't negate the sensationalization of the show...and you noted this much as well...

taken in verbatim context you are correct but if you realize that what wasn't said ...

If you want to argue about things not said in the show, then it changes the course of the discussion. Are we talking about the sensationalized show that recreates unverified animals from eye shine and identifies specific characteristics not in evidence, or are we talking about what you see in the field?

hogdogs
April 1, 2009, 09:13 AM
As for the age thing... I wasn't pointing to age, rather the hybrid tooth. 4 years old means they live a long healthy life but I was pointing out the presence of a tooth present only on russian or russian/domestic cross.

Since, in my experience, I do see the traits that suggest russian influence as well as having done as much research as my redneck self can muster over the last 6 years to find that many russian hogs were imported in the last hundred years for the purpose of supplying "sport hunting clubs" for the wealthy. There have been many descriptions of the managers of these clubs trying new methods to contain them with little luck. So the evidence I need to see that they have been here for a long time is right there.
I will look for some images from the hog doggin boards that don't show the hunters to show some of what we describe as "russian lookin" hogs. They are in population pockets I admit.

As for sensationalized, I feel the big foot shows are sensationalized. This one was well put together and contained mostly written fact with a little possible opinion.
But the bomb part is blatantly true as I know of areas in many of the states in the south that have updated their feral hog population maps and from the looks of it the printer ink consumption must have impacted their state budget.
Brent

ELMOUSMC
April 1, 2009, 10:31 PM
Hogdog;I have neither the knowledge or the in depth field experence about hogs but I have first hand witness to how rapidly hogs can revert to a less than domesticated state.
About 6 years ago a large hog confinement operation was hit by a tornado and many of the bred sows were released many survived and produced litters, this was in an area about 60 miles from my location.This past fall during deer season in the county north of the one I live in (Clayton) We were hunting an area on a ridge above the Mississippi river.We flushed a hog a boar as it had no visible tits,we able to observe it for over a minute.
From a distance of 35 yards this is what I saw.An animal of about 300 to350 lbs it had a distinct humped front shoulder it was hairy and was almost completely black except for a lighter strip running from just behind the ears to its tail(brownish red) it had a much longer snout than a Hamp or Duroc
I don't have any idea how long it takes a hog to lose it perferred domestic shape nor do I know if there is any Eurasian blood in the animal I saw.All I know is the members of my hunting party agreed that what we saw was a wild(Feral) Boar.I would like to see apicture of those dogs you were discussing Good luck and good hunting ELMOUSMC

hogdogs
April 1, 2009, 10:50 PM
http://images.google.com/images?q=dogo+argentina&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=JTLUSYOCCcWnmQe9trH4Dg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title
The dogo argentina?
Yes the feral domestics do lose their farmed shape rapidly...
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt293/MarkFreddy/image10.jpg
Not russian...
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c195/Hogwild1/013.jpg
Again, not a russian...
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f279/mwgarrett/Hunting/CIMG3857.jpg
This may have a bit more russian influence. I am having trouble finding images of hogs that show more russian influence as many are poor quality or have the hunters in the pic and I don't have their permission to rip and re-post them and I need time to get my puter savvy daughter to edit out faces...
Brent

ELMOUSMC
April 1, 2009, 11:07 PM
Hogdog:yes the Dogo argentina,The second picture of the hog on the UTV looks very much like the animal we saw ELMOUSMC

hogdogs
April 1, 2009, 11:19 PM
The top link of images has plenty of good shots of the dogo.
The one on the ute is very typical of what we get on around me. Some of the pure black traits are from the spanish hogs originally placed by spanish explorers from about the N. Carolina coast all the way around to Mexico and on down... Much of their offspring has later made way into the domesticated stock either accidentally or through intentional re-domestication and subsequent cross breeding.
It is fully legal (not so ethical) for me to pen a live captured feral hog, cut the teeth, dock the tails and have them inoculated and run thru the sale barn in many places... I wouldn't do this with them but I would run 3rd generation pigs as domestic. They will revert back to short snouts and legs as fast once re-captured as when gone feral... adaptive critters!
Brent

treg
April 2, 2009, 07:47 AM
Thanks for those links shorthair. Now that I'm layed off I'll be cruising the woods and backroads a lot more on my horse. Saw some around here 2 and 3 years ago, and fresh sign up till fall '97. Nothing since then. I would travel a ways if there was a good likelyhood of "providing a service" to my state.

Selfish treg would like to see more of them around but common sense says not.

P.S. A valid Michigan hunting licence is required to shoot wild hog here in MI.

Shorthair
April 2, 2009, 08:22 AM
Sure thing Treg. I'm laid off too.... Michigan sucks. :(

Art Eatman
April 2, 2009, 09:10 AM
I'm no hog expert, but for over sixty years I've read commentary about how quickly hogs revert in the wild. It seems to take but merely three or four generations to go from pen-hog to razorback.

I've been reading "Let's go hunting!" ads for about the same length of time in such as "Field & Stream" magazine. All through the Smoky Mountain country, hog hunting for boars with Russian strain was advertised.

I know as fact that the Russians have been introduced into Texas, at one time or another. Rich folks' hunting pleasure. But, sheep&goat fence isn't gonna keep a big hog in a pasture...

About the only place I know of a "natural" die-off was a few miles north of my house on the 3-Bars Ranch. How? Simple: Cougars and coyotes ate the little ones.

crazy
April 27, 2009, 03:59 PM
Does anyone know where you can hunt hogs for free?
If you want to pay it's easy to find a place but I thought it was a huge problem and people wanted them killed.

hogdogs
April 27, 2009, 05:03 PM
I hunt them for free here. I invite folks to join me. Dogs on hogs mainly but occasionally I can slip a gun hunt in. Rarely get lucky with guns though.

Brent

jammin1237
April 27, 2009, 06:12 PM
as far as hogs go, let them come! i probably live in the only state left where you can still buy guns, ammo, and beer... all in one stop!... the only problem is you cant do anything with said supplies unless buying the right license at the allowed twice a year/ or once a "season" license in the second week of the sixth month of the year...unless it is a leap year in which the rules change and you have to recalculate the approximate dates at which you want hunt such animal... that being said ,,, oh wait was i talking about pigs? or was it birds, deer, small game, fox, wolfs, bears, cougars, elk, ram?... maybe it was fishing..never mind, i lost my train of thought:D

thallub
April 27, 2009, 08:13 PM
Deleted by poster. This was covered above. Hybrid tooth.

thallub
April 27, 2009, 08:24 PM
Yes the feral domestics do lose their farmed shape rapidly...


Yes they do. A first generation feral hog will undergo some changes is a fairly short period of time. First the tail goes straight, then the butt becomes more narrow.

Killed these three hogs one evening as few weeks ago. None had the hybrid tooth.

Double Naught Spy
May 28, 2009, 06:05 PM
We also have the "hybrid tooth"...
http://www.hunting-in-texas.com/learnhogs.htm

This has been bothering me for a while now, this "hydrid tooth." Mentioned elsewhere as the Euro tooth and claimed to be diagnostic of a feral hog/Russian boar cross. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=319207

So far, the only references that I can find to support the claim that this is indicative of a Russian boar/feral hog mix is the site cited above. The other sites that mention this that I have found all refer to this one site or at least to the same set of images. For example...
http://www.hunting-in-texas.com/learnhogs.htm
http://www.texasboars.com/articles/aging.html

I am sorry. I have seen this before and I have to laugh. That is a vestigial LPM1 (lower first premolar, adult tooth)!!!!

I have yet to see anything in my veterinary or osteology texts that support that crossing feral hogs and Russian boars produces this vestigial tooth, especially when it is a tooth that shows up in domestic hogs!!!!!!

http://www.d91.k12.id.us/skyline/tea...bertsd/pig.htm
http://www.skullsite.co.uk/Pig/pigdom.htm

In fact, that tooth shows up as part of the dental formula for hogs which is

3 1 4 3
______
3 1 4 3

The formula means you have 3 upper incisors, 1 canine, 4 premolars, and 3 molars on each side (left and right) and the same pattern down below on the mandible.

Why is it a vestigial? It is something of a remnant tooth. Many other artiodactyls have all but totally lost the tooth, but it still shows up in regularly in Suidae (pig family). Rarely, you will find a white-tailed deer with one or two vestigial LPM1s as something of a throwback.

Do the vestigial LPM1s always show up in domestic pigs? Nope. They are vestigial. Sometimes they are not there or when they are there they are smaller than their other PM counterparts, less well formed. They are a tooth being evolutionarily lost, but not gone yet by any stretch.

As they are located in the diastema (space or gap) between the canine and the fully formed cheek teeth and are smaller in size, they do tend to get broken off and the gums will heal over the roots such that they may appear to have never been present when they were.

I really have to wonder how it is that folks come up with this stuff and pass it off as being some sort of diagnostic fact.

Go look up pictures of domestic pigs on the internet and teeth like I showed you above and you will see that non-feral domestic pigs have this tooth with remarkable regularity.

Note, there is no real biological stage of being "feral." The authors are treating "feral" as a biological entity that doesn't exist as an entity. So to say that the tooth is diagnostic of a cross between a feral hog and a Russian boar is garbage. Secondly, there is no information other than that one set of pictures on the internet that seems to support the claim. Third, with the tooth showing up in non-feral domestic pigs, it can't be claimed as diagnostic of a feral hog/Russian boar mix to produce a hybrid.

hogdogs
May 28, 2009, 06:17 PM
I am under the impression (limited factual backing on the net) that the tooth does not appear in true russian/euro wild stock. Just in feral or feral/euro crossbreds... Not an indicator of feral versus domestic as feral are domestic hogs in the wild.
Feral hogs are not russian hogs. Russian hogs are "wild hogs". That is how I see it anyway. I have trapped and dogged several hundred head of swine of all ages and size and never seen one with out that tooth. I also have never gotten a hog that has only the traits of true russian hogs.
Brent

thallub
May 29, 2009, 08:47 AM
I have trapped and dogged several hundred head of swine of all ages and size and never seen one with out that tooth. I also have never gotten a hog that has only the traits of true russian hogs.


I have killed at least 8 hogs here and in Austria that were pruebred Russian/German boars. None of those that I examined had that tooth. This one was killed in OK. This was a very old boar when he was killed in 07. His teeth were ground down to the gums. He had a small brass tag in his ear from a game preserve in Germany.

Double Naught Spy
May 29, 2009, 12:17 PM
I am under the impression (limited factual backing on the net) that the tooth does not appear in true russian/euro wild stock.

Okay, prove it. You have passed off the information as fact, but the closest thing you have to a source has no documentation. Your impressions are well intended, but not backed up scientifically.

Just in feral or feral/euro crossbreds... Not an indicator of feral versus domestic as feral are domestic hogs in the wild.
Feral hogs are not russian hogs. Russian hogs are "wild hogs". That is how I see it anyway. I have trapped and dogged several hundred head of swine of all ages and size and never seen one with out that tooth. I also have never gotten a hog that has only the traits of true russian hogs.
Brent

And by "only traits of true russian hogs" you include this alleged Euro-tooth absence. This is a "fact" not in evidence. You see, the reason the tooth is always there is because it is not absent from Russian or European wild hogs. It is present.
http://www.skullsite.co.uk/Pig/wboar.htm This wild pig has them.

So OF COURSE it is present in the bazillions of hogs you have killed.

If it is present in a European wild hog and present in domesticates and ferals, then it would show up in hybrids between the two, and does. If you have a pure blood, the tooth will be there. If you have a domestic pig. The tooth will be there. If you have a feral pig. The tooth will be there.

So to use the tooth presence of absence as a diagnostic trait of being a hybrid is BOGUS.

Double Naught Spy
May 29, 2009, 12:31 PM
I have killed at least 8 hogs here and in Austria that were pruebred Russian/German boars. None of those that I examined had that tooth. This one was killed in OK. This was a very old boar when he was killed in 07. His teeth were ground down to the gums. He had a small brass tag in his ear from a game preserve in Germany.

Now, did they not have the tooth or had it been present and broken away earlier in life? Did you skeletonize the mandible and check for the presence of the alveolus?

Do you have any photographs? Were you actually looking for this trait? Did you also take notice of any of the cusp variations on the molars as well?

How did you diagnose that these were "purebred"? If you based the statement on phenotypes, then you would have a problem. You are making a claim of absoluteness that you can't substantiate.

If this tooth presence/absence is diagnostic as claimed, none of the actual biologists seem to know this.

As for your German boar from OK, with the teeth ground down to the gums, you are going to be hard pressed to prove the tooth wasn't there without skeletonizing it.

Interestingly, Vietnamese potbelly pigs seem to be missing the LPM1...
http://www.americanheadhunters.com/jpg/potbelliedpig.jpg
http://www.skullsite.co.uk/Pig/vietpig_lat.jpg

STEINER
May 29, 2009, 01:32 PM
I have lived most of my life in big cities and have never seen a Hog, Sow, Swine, Pig, Boar, domestic or any other name for a pig outside of a fenced area.
I just want to say that this thread has been a real education for me. Facinating information. To me, it doesn't matter much if some things can't be proven. The general conversation is a good read. Thanks.
And now I am going to load up the "youtube" videos and enjoy.

hardluk1
May 29, 2009, 01:47 PM
hogdogs, where you at ,perry area? I grew up hunting in south fl and some up just inland and south a perry. There is a world of difference in the way we hunted between the to areas. We did trap,dog and stalk hunt them. Never cut many till i got about to old and broke down to do much more. There has been some mainly old piney wood rooters down in the bear island unit that have scaled at 400lbs and not hardly any domestic showing in them. Now up around the perry area ,them hogs are have mixed lots of color and a longer bodied hogs but still with cutters showing. I use to get a kick out of watch'n a couple of young bucks fighting to see who got to go in and catch the hog they jumped. The biggest ones back then were being sold to that canned hunt club on the corner of 349 and 27 i think.Them hogs could cover ten miles or better a day on all that hard road up there. Not like them swamps where you and a 250 lber could be in the same bog try'n to cross it and see each other 50 yards apart and nether one can run. He could be in the palmeto patch next to the swamp the next day. I have seen some damd big hogs but they all had bacon hog in them, 7 foot long and slower that hell compaired to a wider breeds with cutters and longer snout even stand up hair on there shoulders but have a mix of color that could be seen in a barn yard. Over all the pig bomb show is kinda like watch'n a show on the swamp ape not like wild america. Lots of BS mixed with a wee little bit a fact.

hogdogs
May 29, 2009, 02:38 PM
Hardluk, I started out in the Daytona area with hunts in south florida and from Daytona to south Georgia and now reside up in the western end of the panhandle (the true south:D).

The thing with bacon and body mass is 2 fold... feed and need. If they have the feed in abundance and no need to travel for food, water, or safety, they will all grow to large size and have bacon belly to some degree. Now cut barr hogs will always have more...:eek:

As for the piney woods rooter... they are usually jet black color swine... In the perry area they are the most mentioned hogs. I have a few buddies in that area. The jet black swine in swine are pretty much all the original feral stock in the state stemming from the spanish explorers dating back to the 1500's if I remember the history correctly.
Quickly pasted from...
http://www.ronsguideservice.com/boar.htm
The Florida wild boar is the classic American razor-back, piney woods rooter. They are not native to Florida. There are theories about the origins of Florida's feral hogs. One is they're descendants of the swine that Ponce de Leon, Hernando DeSoto and other early Spanish explorers brought over from Spain on their ships in the 1500's. The black Spanish hogs quickly populated the state of Florida. The early settlers released domestic boars to up-grade the Florida feral strain which accounts for the color markings we see that sometimes resemble domestic hog breeds.
Brent

barnetmill
May 29, 2009, 04:45 PM
My area of florida has always had hogs, but I am not aware of any explosion. Pig can do a lot of damage to gardens and such. But a hundred pounds or so of meat would certainly compensate for the damage. I live next to a creek bottom and would like something to shoot at other than the squirrels that I culling now. A firend has his business down by one of our inland bay river areas and he had shot 5 pigs out of his office window during early morning hours. This is only about a few blocks from US 90. A few years ago off of US 90 not to far from Milton, FL a construction boss would go out to his job site early in the morning and took out 26 hogs.

hardluk1
May 30, 2009, 09:34 AM
hogdogs Never hunted past the perry area. I know the basic history of the florida hogs to, but you do see the inbreading of different mixes of hog blood lines.Just depends on the area. What i neant by travel of hogs was up there around the perry area atlest the boys were out damd near ever day hog ride'n the dirt roads. They would go out and circle blocks and look for hog travel and then throw out a trail dog and then with to few people and to much acrerage to cover they would find that hog 2 miles away by the time that one trail dog got them slowed down enought to get out and walk in a catch dog. Marathon runers up there. Back in s fl most had so much food and so much harder to find that the hogs typicaly did not travel the same kind of distances. Plus we were mostly deer hunting and hog was just a benifit if lucky enough to hear them or find some fresh turned over ground. Nothing like walk'n in a palmeto patch and walk up on a 200 lb.er at 10 feet. Most of the hogs back then were much more wild blood in the park grounds ( big cypress) and near by areas but when we hunted closer to developed area's you would find a well mixed herds and just to damd many to get up on so we would build large concrete wire traps that might let us catch a larger number . There was one old man that lived by himself about ten miles from anywhere that some of us have watched walk into the middle of herd of hogs ,,,maybe 50 or 60 hogs and dump out treats for them. Darn hogs doing like they do would fight around him to get to the bread or donuts or vege's he brought out and he could holler at them and they would run. Darn pet hogs atleast to him.. Moved to nc mountains and hardly a hog loose up here. Few (russian) from the tenn. side, pigs get seen durning hunting season on the state line areas but they don't seem to be makeing an in in this area. TOOO bad ,sure do miss a good slow cooked wild pig..... Ever have a cuban family cook a pig in the ground,, O my. No cubans up here ether. Dam, wish i had never read this tread.

Todd1700
May 31, 2009, 05:37 AM
The Pig Bomb show was generally a sensationalized show.

Agreed. I won't get into the debate on the various species characteristics. That's been well covered. But the show definately tried to make feral hogs seem more menacing and dangerous than they actually are. As I said in another thread, the only people I know or have heard of being injured by a wild hog in Alabama were some of the folks that used to go out and catch them with dogs. And they got bitten or slashed because they were actually grabbing onto the hogs trying to catch them alive. Grab any wild animal and it will likely try to bite you. Hogs are no exception. But as far as a danger to someone just walking through the woods here? Naaaa, that's just way oversensationalized horse pucky. I've encountered them hundreds of times and killed a dump truck load of them. (we consider them a shoot on sight pest on our land) They run like hell at the first sight of a human. I wish they would aggressively stand and fight. They would consistently loose to my rifle and it would be far easier to eradicate them. But in areas were they are hunted they can become as elusive as deer and just as human shy.

hogdogs
May 31, 2009, 10:11 AM
You are pretty much right about them not being aggressive in general. I have, however, met with many homeowners associations and heard story after story of folks being charged while walking dogs or going to get the morning paper. It was situations like this got me hired to eradicate the hogs under any costs... Keep in mind we are dealing with nature lovin' tree huggers who moved to these places to be in nature and they needed alot to be pushed to letting me turn hunting dogs loose in their gated communities. Many were fine with the land destruction citing the hogs were there first but the fear of being run down by a hog was too much. To hear a 70+ old lady describing the sound a hog makes as it is sharpening it's tusks is kinda funny in a cute way though...
Brent

Double Naught Spy
May 31, 2009, 06:03 PM
Ours certainly have not been aggressive. They seem to have a serious case of avoidance behavior more so than any of the other critters. While common in the game camera images, I have actually seen live hogs on my place as often as I have seen live bobcats and the bobcats are rare even in the game camera images.

Last night was the 3rd time for me to spy a live hog at my place and the FIRST time I was able to do something about it. :D

The rifle is for scale and is 40" long.

hogdogs
May 31, 2009, 06:27 PM
DNS, That is sweet lookin' kill! Having trapped alot with sour corn I could actually walk to within 25 or less yards of a trap in darkness, flip on the red LED and check activity without spookin' them and go to the truck and unload dogs just to return and "drop snap"... that is a heck of a blast right there... 2 curr dogs and 2 bulldogs usually meant 3 pigs or 2 hogs. Man that is the abusive (for us, the dogs or hogs... just depends) version of "fish in a barrel"... The cases of note where hogs charge people is cases where they have little or no hunting pressure and are dealing with unarmed fearful people... picture a polar bear in a trailer park dumpster at the local hippie park!:eek:
Brent

Art Eatman
June 1, 2009, 09:57 AM
The opening post has a link to a really interesting letter:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=453206