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Desette
March 24, 2009, 03:44 AM
Hey Everyone,

Noobie post here so hello to everyone on these forums and if I do anything non-par give me a heads up ASAP and I will fix it.

Has anyone had experience with the Front Sight Training Centre? Anyone done any of there courses?

I was looking at their "free-gun" program as I was looking to get an Springfield XD anyway and that is there free gun for the program.

Anyone have any comments or more perferably critizism?

their sites:

http://www.frontsight.com/ (http://http://www.frontsight.com/)

www.free-gun.com (http://www.free-gun.com)

Nnobby45
March 24, 2009, 03:53 AM
A friend went down there last October and said it was first class.

fastforty
March 24, 2009, 06:01 PM
They are a top notch facility with very good curriculum and instructors. 99.9% of the attending students rave about the skills that they gain, even in a 2 day class. I have recently heard that *some* of the "gun included" offers have been a tad slow on the "gun" part, due to unavailability since the election. I'd talk to someone on the phone line to verify what the current timeline is on weapon delivery.

Shane Tuttle
March 24, 2009, 06:34 PM
Forget Frontsight and head over to Gunsite instead. It may be a bit more expensive, but you get what you pay for.

Nnobby45
March 24, 2009, 06:50 PM
Forget Frontsight and head over to Gunsite instead. It may be a bit more expensive, but you get what you pay for.


What's your personal experience at the Fronsight training center?

You made the criticism, how about telling us why.

Shane Tuttle
March 24, 2009, 09:10 PM
What's your personal experience at the Fronsight training center?
You made the criticism, how about telling us why.

What criticism is stated other than suggesting another training facility?

Found out milk wasn't the liquid ingredient in your Post Toasties this morning after eating?

Nnobby45
March 24, 2009, 10:23 PM
What criticism is stated other than suggesting another training facility?



OK, let's do it your way. If someone could manage but two days for training, would you recommend someone not go to Frontsight?

And, have you been to either facility? If so, perhaps you could be kind enough to share it with us.

Shane Tuttle
March 24, 2009, 10:59 PM
OK, let's do it your way. If someone could manage two days for training, would Frontsight give you "what you pay for"?

My way? Well, since you granted me that avenue, I'll be more than happy to dance. But first, my reply. NO. NOPE. NYET.

My hard earned money to be trained goes to instructors that don't have controversial baggage and usually has "been there, done that".

My experience isn't relevant to this thread. I could tell the OP that I've been to Thunder Ranch, Valhalla, GunSite thrice, FrontSite, Cumberland Tactics twice, Blackwater four times, and an intro edge course with Steve Tarani. But it wouldn't really carry weight. We all know that. I'm just a lowly member here. Tell you what. How about I refer to what Staff Alumni and the actual owner of this board, Rich Lucibella has stated instead? Members as I stated and the owner of this site will definitely draw more clarity to the subject at hand and the OP can take smaller risk in believing them than some little ole member like myself.

The link provided has quite a bit of cat-fighting, but is actually worth the headache to read to understand the entire context. So, without further adew(sp)...

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71919&highlight=Gunsite+Frontsite

Take notice in posts #10, 14, and most importantly, 26. If you read only one post in that thread, I'd HIGHLY recommend reading #26. After trying to explain over and over again my personal opinions/observations of instructors in this world to naysayers, I happened to run across this thread one day. Rich and George Hill basically sums up what I think.

Another note to take: Observe how that thread started, went downhill, and ended. I'd advise that this thread does NOT end the same way. It isn't a threat. It isn't pointing fingers. I'm not implying anyone here is trying to instigate a urinating contest. What I am stating is many people have pretty strong opinions, whether right or wrong, about where they think is the "best" training. Adding testosterone to the mix is like adding Avgas to a fire...nothing ends well.

kerby
March 25, 2009, 12:14 AM
Front Sight has a two-day and four-day defensive handgun training classes geared for the civilian that has no LEO background, military background or for any person that has not fired their gun in a long time. It teaches basic gun handling skills, clearing jams, malfunctions, loading, reloading and with its main purpose of drawing from a concealed carry. I did the four-day course in janaury and would highly recommend the course. Yes, there were alot of Leo's and both active and retired military present but I would understand if someone was more advanced in firearms and wouldn't want to attend this course. Students came from as far as Canada, Florida and alot from the east coast. As I have no experience with other schools available I can't compare them to the others. If I had the opportunity I would attend the various other training schools. However, I felt my time and money was well spent at Front Sight, Nevada. I am planning to go back some time. In fact, they do have alot of promotions available for membership and some do come with a gun package. Myself, i am looking for one the their newest challange lifetime membership promotions they recently came out with. If you would like to hear more drop me a pm and I will share some more experience with you.

Kerby

Nnobby45
March 25, 2009, 01:17 AM
My way? Well, since you granted me that avenue, I'll be more than happy to dance. But first, my reply. NO. NOPE. NYET.

My hard earned money to be trained goes to instructors that don't have controversial baggage and usually has "been there, done that".


Well, there you have. The underlying volcano that finally erupted after some minor stimulation:D I appreciate the honest reply.:)

I too have heard about the controversial baggage and read a lengthy piece about it some time back.

My friend who attended the course was able to seperate the other stuff from the actual training and had good things to say about it---that's all. I believe he did the four day.

There's no question that Nate can be a little high on the self praise and promotion. If I was headed South to take a course (I live in N. Nv.), I think I'd be heading to Gunsite where there doesn't seem to be any issue with anything.:cool:

fastforty
March 25, 2009, 02:24 PM
Wow, a nine year old post referenced though everything hashed out in it has LONG been put to rest (both legally and morally). I still contend that you'd be very hard pressed to find anyone who has actually trained at FS that will give them a bad report (well, except for those three guys who collectively took 100's of courses, got taken for a long ride by their lawyer & got left holding an empty bag while he laughed his way to the bank, LOL).

Seriously though, I'd LOVE to go to any of the other schools so I could rave about their training too (nobody stays in business this long without doing *something* right, eh?). But, until I have the opportunity to attend their courses I have to resort to replies such as "I've heard a lot of good things about them", "I'd go if I could" and refrain from bashing out of pure ignorance (can't help but to occasionally bash in response to it though ;)

But anyway, more on topic: You get everything in the two day course that you get in the 4 day version- All the same lectures, drills and one-to-one training. The four day classes give you a little more repetition, evenings to dry practice between range times & time to soak it all up. Oh yeah, and a little more "fun" activities (360 degree shooting houses, etc).

Personally, I think that ALL of the schools have one MAJOR flaw- you spend a good deal of time standing in one spot shooting a target that doesn't move. If it's true that you will "fall back on your training" in a real life or death confrontation, I'm seeing a lot of people that may freeze up instead of diving for cover. From what I've heard, all of the schools do have more realistic practice drills, though most of the emphasis placed on them is verbal. After taking a 2 or 4 day class at FS, I highly recommend that you return for the Advanced Handgun Tactics curriculum. It that class, you WILL do a lot of shooting on the move, from inside of a vehicle and from behind various cover and concealment. Once you've done that, you'll realize why those things can't safely be taught to first time students. You have to learn to stand before you can hope to walk.

pax
March 25, 2009, 03:40 PM
...everything hashed out in it has LONG been put to rest (both legally and morally).

Not quite: www.frontsightlitigation.com

Some of what was referenced is still ongoing.

(No dog in this fight, please believe me. But in interests of accuracy -- the legal issue has not been "put to rest" in any substantive sense. And the initial settlement wasn't in Piazza's favor in any sense of the word.)

pax

Jim March
March 25, 2009, 05:06 PM
I'm stuck here because I know a LOT about FS that isn't well known, and I'm under non-disclosure.

Flat out: DO NOT get involved in their real estate scams under any circumstances. And trust me, their entire financial structure is about as shaky as Bernie Madoff's little empire for similar reasons...paying big money up front for a "lifetime membership" is nuts. If you're going to pay for a big training package, multiple classes paid for up front in some kind of special deal, make sure you can blow through most of it FAST, literally as fast as class schedules allow. I would never pay for training that will take you more than a year to get and that's pushing it. They could vanish literally at any moment.

This is actually NOT a slam on the training itself - I'm talking about the underlying business financials.

Shane Tuttle
March 25, 2009, 05:50 PM
Wow, a nine year old post referenced though everything hashed out in it has LONG been put to rest (both legally and morally).

So, is there something wrong with referring to a 200 year old document to support one's case, too?

I still contend that you'd be very hard pressed to find anyone who has actually trained at FS that will give them a bad report (well, except for those three guys who collectively took 100's of courses, got taken for a long ride by their lawyer & got left holding an empty bag while he laughed his way to the bank, LOL).

There's no contention from me about the actual training you receive at Frontsite. I personally think Gunsite should be the course to take first. Like I stated before, Rich Lucibella has stated reasons why to a 'T'. Also, since you were in the middle of that discussion, I don't think it's conducive to further explain to you what I think. I gave my input and provided a link to others that have a well earned reputation backed by solid credientials.

I think that about covers all I should state.

hecate
March 25, 2009, 06:27 PM
As a Front Sight lifetime member, I've received quite a few mailings giving the particulars of the lawsuit Kathy referenced, from the plaintiffs' counsel. I've also attended enough classes to more than account for what I paid for my membership. I can attend any class they have or develop in the future (subject to passing the prerequisites for advanced training) at no cost.

Nothing the plaintiffs' counsel ever sent me was sufficient to convince me to relinquish my membership. I have never experienced any of the non-gun-training related things I've heard people claim "some guy they know" experienced at Front Sight.

Their training is solid and consistent. Their instructors are excellent. I've seen people who never touched a gun before in their lives in entry-level classes alongside experienced shooters, sworn law enforcement officers, and active duty military. The novices learned quickly, had a great time, and by the end of the class scored very well on the final skills assessment.

Jim March
March 25, 2009, 06:56 PM
I thought the lawsuit regarding that fatality on the rope-slide thingie was going to kill them off.

ws6_keith
March 30, 2009, 01:59 PM
As far as the training goes, the two classes I have been to out there were top notch. Very professionally done, lots to learn. Instructors were personable - not done in a boot camp type environment. I've taken the 4-day defensive handgun and the 2-day defensive shotgun classes. Bought a Challenge membership while I was there for that last class, but haven't been back yet (time is hard to come by).

Buying the training certificates is the way to go. First time students can use the gray certificates, available online (ebay, fscerts.com, etc) for 80-100. Returning student certs are around $400 - either way, MUCH cheaper than the $2000 the class gets for paying cash.

KC Rob
March 30, 2009, 02:35 PM
I have trained at FS several times, they sucked me in on the free SMG class that me and a buddy did on a lark and I have been back 3 times since. The atmosphere, training, ranges and instructors were great. I have not trained at any other schools so I have nothing to compare it too, but learned a lot and vastly improved my skills. I am aware of the ongoing legal troubles and would never buy into the home site membership, but for training I would recommend Front Sight whole heartedly. I took the one day SMG, 2 day defensive handgun, 2 day shotgun, and 4 day handgun course. I still have one training cert that I am going to use to take my wife when I get time. What ever Dr. Piazza's business troubles are, the man can shoot. I watched him do an Uzi demo and in the course of the demo the Uzi jammed, he transitioned to his handgun and shot the remaining targets. His speed and accuracy were impressive. I still to this day use the Front Sight targets because I like the way they are laid out, very simple and informative.

ws6_keith
April 1, 2009, 04:43 PM
What ever Dr. Piazza's business troubles are, the man can shoot. I watched him do an Uzi demo and in the course of the demo the Uzi jammed, he transitioned to his handgun and shot the remaining targets. His speed and accuracy were impressive.

"Any gun will do, if you will do." Catchy phrase. ;)

SquidWarrior
April 1, 2009, 05:22 PM
I recieve their newsletter and it is usually a good read. I would like to attend one of their classes some day.

KellyTTE
April 1, 2009, 05:59 PM
If you're going to be in the western US, why not hookup with LMS Defense?

More modern curriculum from very 'tip of the spear' teachers.

http://www.lmsdefense.com

Dewhitewolf
April 5, 2009, 09:18 AM
I have a life membership with Front Sight. I got a Glock pistol included with it. I attended 4 Day Defensive Handgun. I found the instructors to be top notch, the course well organized, and the facilities the best I've seen.

I am aware of the litigation against Front Sight. As a life member, I received many documents from both the court and from the plaintiffs. I did not suffer any of the damages that the plaintiffs were claiming; in my opinion, their suit was frivolous.

As a paralegal myself, I am well aware of the prevalence of meritless litigation in general. It is all too common that people will initiate a lawsuit just to get money, knowing that it is sometimes cheaper for defendants to settle rather than fight it. This is especially true for ventures involving real estate development; investors often like to pull out just before ground breaking, taking advantage of the urgency of the developers in an attempt to make a quick buck.

Under both federal and state Rules of Evidence, settling or offering to settle a lawsuit is notan admission of guilt or liability. It is accepted as "buying peace." It is fairly common for attorneys to recommend to their clients to settle a lawsuit rather than fight it; litigation is costly and time consuming.

Not knowing all of the facts behind the litigation, I cannot definitively say whether the litigation against Front Sight is frivolous. However, I can say that my personal experience was well worth what I spent. The only reason I cannot visit there more often is because of the time and the cost of traveling there (from NJ).

ranburr
April 5, 2009, 12:03 PM
I have never attended Frontsite. What I have been told is that they have large classes with all skill levels mixed together. And, I have been told that the classes move pretty slow and are very basic due to them moving at the pace of the novice shooters. Also, supposedly the classes are not very dynamic (little or no movement, no force on force). Everyone that I have spoken to fits into two categories; people who either A, have never trained anywhere else and love it; or B, have trained elsewhere and think it was a waste of time. For my money, I prefer to find a traveling instructor or just bring one in for private classes.

ZippZ
April 5, 2009, 01:38 PM
I will give Front Sight a big thumbs up after going there for a 1 day uzi, 4 day defensive handgun and 4 day practical rifle class. The classes do start out slow and reason is there is a wide range of shooters there ranging from the experienced to LE or military to first time shooters that have not touched a gun before.
The staff there go through everything step by step so eventually everyone gets up to speed. The main goals there are to make a torso and headshot quickly and be able to clear malfunctions. After taking the class I do feel alot quicker with my shots.
They do have a couple of hours of marketing memberships and future classes, that you have an option of attending. No scientology or litigation propoganda.
I took the basic courses and though I feel I am a good shooter, I barely received a graduate certificate. The scoring is pretty tough as your racing against the clock. I plan on attending the advanced courses such as the tactical handgun and precision rifle in the future with my membership.

The free gun offer is pretty good. Another option is to buy a course certificate from ebay for $250, sometimes cheaper.

ZippZ
April 5, 2009, 01:42 PM
Forgot to add they do get busy on the weekends. They claim enrollment is doubling every year and I believe it. Last summer there were over 300 students attending class on the weekend.

Maxx
April 5, 2009, 02:57 PM
I recently attended a 4 day defensive handgun class at Frontsight.
I bought a grey certificate in Ebay for $100 (good for 1 4 day class or 2 2 day classes) The background check cost another $50.

There were probably 400-500 students that were split up into smaller classes. There were about 30 people in my class.

Here is my opinion:

Pros:
Gun safety is stressed first and foremost.
My instructor seemed well qualified.
Large facility, you don't feel crowded.
The course was well structured.

Cons:
All classrooms are outdoors, it gets windy and can be cold in the desert.
You do have to spend a certain amount of time listening to their promotions.

All in all, they do have an impressive program. The weather was real crappy during my time there, it did affect the training I received. I don't blame them for the weather, but some indoor classrooms and ranges would be nice.
It was a good course and I can understand why a good percentage of folks go back for more.
You do waste a few hours watching their promotional videos, but you do so as a large group and they don't take you individually and try to pressure you into anything in any way.

Would I recommend it? Yes.

kerby
April 13, 2009, 03:30 AM
i would go back to front sight for more training. As i live in Vegas it is convenient. Not that I wouldn't be opposed to other training schools. It just so happens this one is local for me. In Fact I am looking for a discounted front sight membership for myself.

thanks
Kerby

Shadi Khalil
April 13, 2009, 09:32 AM
You do waste a few hours watching their promotional videos, but you do so as a large group and they don't take you individually and try to pressure you into anything in any way


A few hours? My god, I thought it was a quick pitch but a few hours?

kerby
April 13, 2009, 12:06 PM
i was there for a 4-day defensive handgun course. The only time we got that kind of info was during the lunch period. 45 minutes. short video and short speech. you are not required to to stay in the lecture hall during that time.

looking for a front sight membership

kerby

dbarrym
April 26, 2009, 01:22 AM
I also recently attended a 4 day class (defensive handgun) at FS. Although I had some limited prior experience as a casual competitive shooter (IPSC back in the mid-to-late 90's), I can honestly say that I came away a much better and safer shooter than I was when I arrived. The curriculum was excellent, and the pace was well matched to the students attending (from rank newbie to 20+ year LEO and active duty military). It's challenging enough that even the more experienced students were hard pressed at times to keep up.

Enough has been said already, both good and bad, but if you are looking to add basic to mid level tactical and SD skills, you could do far worse. There may be better schools out there (I don't know - FS was my first formal training class), but my impression was that for the typical shooter, FS provides excellent value and is far more than adequate for 99% of the shooters out there.

IMHO - Kudos to FS and Dr. Piazza for providing an alternative source for quality training.

Last, re the weather - FS trains in good conditions or bad - you can't choose when your skills will be needed. And re the sale pitches - they are provided in the main auditorium during lunch time. It is your choice weather to attend (and listen) or not. Many people during my class (4/3-7) just ignored them and talked to neighbors or read the good lecture and background info provided for the ethics and legal issues lectures covered on 2 of the 4 days.

Barry

Sgt 45
March 30, 2010, 06:32 PM
I just finished a 4 day practical rifle and a 4 day handgun course. My only complaint is that to score well in the practical rifle you have to be able to get into a stable position at 100 and 200 yards in 5 and 6.5 seconds and make the shot. Some of us older types just can't do that anymore. That being said, I know my LWRC 6.8 much much better than I did a month ago. As for the handgun course, it was probably the toughest training I've ever done. I learned a lot of "little" things that helped me to improve my shooting and did new things that I had never practiced before. We had everyone from a 12 year old boy on spring break with his dad to some of us old guys, with women, cops and active duty military in between. A part time airline pilot and myself were the only two to graduate DG (distinguished graduate) out of 44. I look at this as finishing High School, with college and post-graduate work to come. Although I did well in my class, there are those out there that really know how to shoot.

glockster
January 6, 2011, 05:38 PM
I am a NRA Certified Instructor and a sniper trainer for military and law enforcement. I took the 4 day defensive handgun course and was so blown away by the experience that I bought a Legacy lifetime membership at the end of my class. Ive since taken other courses, and recently upgraded my membership to Diamond and have purchased a block of Diamond memberships for my friends, family and business associates. With any successful organization there will be the jealous and the nay-sayers, let me put all of the internet crap to rest for everyone. I am not being paid or receiving any consideration for my input.

1. Professionalism - incredible, total, beyond expectations, accomplish exactly what they claim. Finest instructors Ive ever worked with. Compassionate, understanding, professional, competant. They find a way to bring out the very best in every person regardless of skill level and inherent ability. On my range there were all kinds: Mom with 15 year old son, man in wheelchair and old 1911 pistol, two gay guys who wanted to be able to defend themselves against bashers, a Priest, several cops, military and professionals including doctors and dentists. All did well and all received the same level of attention and interest from the Instructors.

2. Sales Hype - Yes in email offers, the pressure is rather high, but when you are at the institute there are no sales pushes. There is an offer to purchase a membership at the end of your class, but its a simple offer, go see the gentleman at the table if you are interested. Thats it.

3. Scientology - Some have attempted to damage the sterling reputation of Dr. Piazza by assoiciating him and the Institute with Scientology. I am a Scientology de-programmer, and am well trained to see any hint at Scientology dogma, none seen, none heard, none found, none present. Period.

4. Dr. Piazza - Very nice man, answers his own phone, tells it straight with no gloss over. Yes there have been some issues, all resolved to the benefit of Front Sight. I believe he is a gentleman of the highest integrity.

4. VALUE OF MEMBERSHIPS ! Superior.

In short, dont buy into the internet crap. If you are interested in a lifetime of firearms training and fun with like minded people, then buy a life membership. If you are a skeptic, buy a certificate on Ebay and go take a $2000 course for a couple hundred. If you want a Diamond membership, I have 2 left $500 each, one legacy membership (life less the proshop discount) for $250. Either way, use it once and you got your moneys worth 10 times over. I have some one course certificates also for $200 each.


Email me if you like.
fla33196@yahoo.com

quatin
January 6, 2011, 05:58 PM
Wasn't there a 60 minutes or something about Front Sight? The company was owned by scientologists and they had a ranch in Nevada and made people pre-pay for a houses that never got built.

Glenn E. Meyer
January 6, 2011, 06:56 PM
Closed for review.

Capt Charlie
January 6, 2011, 09:36 PM
The Front Sight thread was controversial in the beginning, and now we're wandering into the realm of scientology :rolleyes:.

I can't see this one going anywhere good, and I concur with Glenn.

Closed for good.