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View Full Version : Why Do YOU live in a "dangerous" area?


Brian Pfleuger
March 20, 2009, 05:56 PM
Ok, so we'd had this discussion before, many times, but I've never seen the actual logic behind peoples decisions.

I'll ask it like this:

I live in a very safe place. I carry a gun which holds 9+1 and I'm not only confident that it's enough I'm confident that I'll never need it. Right off, NO place is totally safe but it is reasonable to look at the crime level in your area when deciding what level of protection you personally feel you need in your day to day life. I think we can all agree that there is SOME level of preparation that crosses the line into paranoia. I'm not interested in why anyone feels the need to carry X and Y and Z. You may live in a dangerous area and not carry at all or you may carry 2 primaries 4 spare mags a bug with spare mags, pepper spray, a flashlight and a tazer, all while wearing a kevlar vest. That's not the point.The purpose of this thread is NOT to bash each other or make accusations of paranoia.What I'd like to hear from some folks is what exactly it is that keeps them living in areas where they feel the need to carry considerable firepower during an average day.

Here's how I see it.

Premise one: My survival, and that of my immediate family, is paramount.

Premise two: It is reasonable to make efforts to AVOID dangerous confrontations, rather than purely to survive them should they occur.

Premise three: Life is more important than money or climate or proximity to family or, really, anything else.

If you live in a dangerous area, why? Again, this is not an attack. It is a serious question. Moving is NOT that expensive, especially when you consider the the money that many people spend to stay safe in a dangerous place. What keeps you in a place that is not "safe".

I'm posting this in "Tactics and Training" because choice of locality seems like a "tactic" to me.:);)

Masada
March 20, 2009, 06:12 PM
No place is completely safe.

I used to live in a large urban area. I was probably more at risk there of random urban violence than I am now. My current place is much smaller, not really a small town but a small city. Low risk of random urban violence. Higher risk of targeted violence because of who I am.

*shrug*

You pays your money, you takes your chances.

Vanya
March 20, 2009, 06:28 PM
Not sure I'd call where I live "dangerous," but it's a fairly urban neighborhood, with the some of the stuff that entails: some gang-y looking kids around, occasional drunks... way too many "boom cars" :mad:... That said, I chat happily with the neighbors' gang-y looking kids, people pretty much say hello to each other on the street...

I'd rather (for many reasons besides safety) live somewhere much more rural. Would I feel safer? Well, a little, but I'd still be locking my doors at night. Would I want to live in a gated suburb, surrounded by boring people (like myself :o) who all commute an hour each way to get to their jobs? No, no, a thousand times no!

Why do I live where I do? The commute is a big part of it. Mine is under five minutes, which makes me very happy. My business is one which does best either in a really well-to-do neighborhood, where I couldn't afford to live anyway, or in a location that's easily reached from outlying well-to-do neighborhoods in all directions. So it's in the city and so am I. And I like having easy access to concerts, theater, good restaurants. (Now, if I could just afford as much of them all as I'd like, but that's another story...)

Tuzo
March 20, 2009, 06:33 PM
Don't live in a dangerous place but worked in one 40 minutes away - New Orleans. While working one month in Algiers three murders ocurred 3 to 5 blocks. That fact prompted me to get a carry permit and use it.

A co-worker, his sister, and a cousin were attacked in the central business district, outside the company parking garage, mid-morning the day before Mardi Gras leaving two in wheel chairs.

Lived and worked in "third world countries" (Hong Kong, Jakarta, Singapore, Bangkok, even Saigon) with never a problem until I began working in the "fourth world country" of New Orleans. Interesting little observation: until Louisiana carry permits became rather common, carjackings in New Orleans were frequent, now they have become extremely rare. On the other hand, murders still occur daily.

fastforty
March 20, 2009, 06:38 PM
You're a lot less safe then you think you are.

tblt44
March 20, 2009, 06:41 PM
I live in a safe area but travel into tampa where its not so safe.I used to carry a 5 shot 38 but then got a LCP and 4 mags.So then I went and got my KAHR CW 9 this gun is sweet and hplds 7 +1 and always carry one in the pipe.I have my LCP in my pocket.I am confident that 8 shots of 9 mm is all I should need but just in case I sometimes have my LCP in my pocket or an extra mag for my CW9.I was thinking G26 but that would only give me3 more shots but an extra .300 thickness.This gun carrys good in my highnoon holster in the middle of the back.

hoytinak
March 20, 2009, 07:34 PM
I don't live in a dangerous place at all. I live in a very small town (down to 180 people now). We don't have any city/town police just the Sheriff that's stationed 30 miles away but drives through town about once every 2-3 weeks to make sure the town's still here. I can leave my house/trucks unlocked without fear of someone getting in them while I'm at work. The most crime we have here is someone running the stop sign.

BUT

The next town over, another small town 11 miles away with little to no crime had an armed robbery of a convenience store with the clerk getting shot a couple months ago. Just goes to show that no place is 100% safe.

mav88
March 20, 2009, 08:06 PM
I live in a somewhat dangerous neighborhood, but as far as the whole state..no. Most people do not choose to live in a dangerous neighborhood..but sometimes they are forced to since it is only what they can afford at the moment. I say to those who do live in a bad area...carry a ccw, keep your eyes open at all times, and never suspect that "nothing will happen to me".

markshere2
March 20, 2009, 08:31 PM
Have you noticed the bad guys know how to steal cars and drive?

Yes, I live in a small village, with good neighbors. But the road is connected to the rest of the evil world.

We're in the woods, and it used to be "safe" but the meth cookers are damnear everywhere.

Doors are locked at night, Big dog is here and we're armed. When I step foot off the property, I'm armed.

It's always been a dangerous world. However, a few years ago, or so, a popular invention leveled the playing field between the big bully and the little lady. The Revolver with pre-loaded cartridges.

My goodness, what a wonderful invention! Even the frail aged and infirm can command respect with that tool. Rude threatening jerks will get very polite if they think the bearer of such a tool will not tolerate aggression.

"An armed society is a polite society." RAH

Mark

Hirlau
March 20, 2009, 08:36 PM
+1 FastForty ;)


"I carry a gun which holds 9+1 and I'm not only confident that it's enough I'm confident that I'll never need it."

Why do you carry at all, then? AAAhhhh...Maybe you feel the posibility of use might be around that corner.:)

I live in the Miami area. I was born here ( Before the problems were here. When it was a Paradise), my son raised here. There are some good people here, that are my friends.

Why should I move out or step aside for some P.O.S. with no values or who lost what values he had?

I made four trips to Texas last year looking to relocate (just retired), fell in love with Texas, the desert and the green eastern side. I now see why Texans love their state soo much.

I then asked myself, would those same Texan's step aside or move and give their land to the same type of people I described above? I doubt it !!


I Stay, I Fight, If Need Be .

Brian Pfleuger
March 20, 2009, 08:43 PM
We're in the woods, and it used to be "safe" but the meth cookers are damnear everywhere.

The theoretical possibility of crime does not make a place dangerous. What is the crime RATE?


Why do you carry at all, then? AAAhhhh...Maybe you feel the posibility of use might be around that corner.

Because I can? Because I want to? Because, like I said no place is truly "safe" but there are certainly places that are well and truly DANGEROUS. My question is not about the hypothetical "no place is safe..." It's about why people live in places that are CLEARLY and demonstrably more dangerous than would seem prudent.


You're a lot less safe then you think you are.

Well, not to pick a fight but in order for that statement to have ANY validity you would have to know how safe I think I am. For the record, the closest city to me, which is 25 miles away, has a crime rate averaging about 1/2 the national average. The FBI rates my particular zip code at "1" on a scale of 1-10. So I think I know, quite accurately, how safe or not safe I am.

pax
March 20, 2009, 08:50 PM
We used to live across the street from a very active crack house, in a crappy high-crime neighborhood. Lived there for nearly two years.

As soon as we could afford it, we moved. We could not afford to move before that.

Moving is NOT that expensive, especially when you consider the the money that many people spend to stay safe in a dangerous place.

Only rich people have the luxury of saving money by spending it. The rest of us have to save it, by saving it!

pax

mskdgunman
March 20, 2009, 08:56 PM
Some people don't live in a bad area to begin with but the bad area comes to them. I bought my house some 10 years ago in the city where I work on the salary of a single cop so, while the neighborhood is ok, it's not what I would call upper class...more like lower middle class. But, I've noticed the slow, inevitable creep of the "hood" as it works it's way south. All it takes is for home owners to move out and start renting their old places out or sell them to people who rent them out. In my experience, thats when the trouble starts as the owners sometimes don't care who they rent to and since they don't live next to them, they don't care if they have a meth lab in the garage or not. Most houses we hit for dope are not owned by the people living there.

If I want to keep my take home car, I stay in the city. With the housing market being what it is, I don't stand much chance of selling right now and probably couldn't get much better even if I did for the amount I want to spend. I refuse to be one of those folks who have a mortgage they can barely pay and have to rely on off duty details to pay their bills.

It's easy to say "pick up and move" but in reality, it's not practical for many (if not most) people. You make the best of what you have and hope for the best. If I win the lottery, I'll move to the boonies but until then, I am where I am because thats what I can afford and where my job is.

Dr. Strangelove
March 20, 2009, 09:05 PM
If you live in a dangerous area, why? Again, this is not an attack. It is a serious question. Moving is NOT that expensive, especially when you consider the the money that many people spend to stay safe in a dangerous place. What keeps you in a place that is not "safe".

Many things keep people living where they do, but mostly it's money. For someone living paycheck to paycheck, having to worry every month how the rent is going to be paid, moving is simply not an option. Coming up with 1st and last months rent and/or a security deposit, or loan origination fees, etc., is simply not possible for many people. You may as well ask a low income person to fund the space program as come up with $2000-$3000 to move into a new place. I did taxes this year part time, and I'm sure many people reading this would be shocked at the paltry amount of money some folks live on in this world.

I'm lucky that I have an education and family and friends who can help if I need it, but there are a great many who don't have these luxuries. How about the Waffle House waitress with two kids, no husband, no dependable family and friends? What is she going to do? She looks for the place she can afford, knowing it may not be in the safest neighborhood, but at least it is a roof over her head. Sad, but that's how life is for more people than most may think.

ar15chase
March 20, 2009, 09:06 PM
When you think you are safe.... you are in trouble. ALways beware.

GuyMontag
March 20, 2009, 09:08 PM
There have been shootings at schools, places of worship, places of employment, malls, etc. These are all places that we would typically consider safe and we all visit many of them.

I live in a nice neighborhood that would be considered one of the last places to expect violent crime yet this guy:
http://eyeonhate.com/pows/pows9.html
committed his crimes a short drive from where I live.

I can't walk through live as a helpless victim no matter where I live or what kind of community it is.

curt.45
March 20, 2009, 09:11 PM
it was nicer 15 years ago when I moved in, since 4 of the houses on the block are owned by members of my family I'm not leaving.







(yet)

Hirlau
March 20, 2009, 09:11 PM
+ 1 Ar15chase

Brian Pfleuger
March 20, 2009, 09:12 PM
As soon as we could afford it, we moved. We could not afford to move before that.


It's easy to say "pick up and move" but in reality, it's not practical for many (if not most) people.

I agree that "affording" to move is quite often a major factor. I have to wonder though, how many people REALLY can not afford to move, or are a little but scared to be uprooted, and use money as an excuse.

mskdgunman, if I could use your line of work as an example. Our local PDs are hiring all the time. Pretty well non-stop. Now, I don't know (or want to) what kind of money you make but I do know that police work in this area pays a fairly good livable wage. Cost of living is fairly low, reasonable anyway, except for taxes. So, it seems to me that someone like you could pretty easily get a new job around here, pack up your things and get out of dodge.

How about the Waffle House waitress with two kids, no husband, no dependable family and friends?

See, I actually think it's easier for people in that type of situation to move. (Personal experience, my sister has been that "waffle house waitress".) Nothing to take with you, really. My area again as an example. You can rent a fully furnished house around here for maybe $600/month. Sure, it wouldn't be fun and you'd be on a shoestring but you'd be safER and your kids are in a better environment. Heck, a single mom with two kids could use the tips from one night at work to buy the bus tickets.

Hirlau
March 20, 2009, 09:17 PM
peetzakiller,
I don't want a battle with you, but why are you pushing the idea of relocation as a response to high crime?
Maybe we just don't want to leave our homes! Regardless of the crime rate.

pax
March 20, 2009, 09:18 PM
I agree that "affording" to move is quite often a major factor. I have to wonder though, how many people REALLY can not afford to move, or are a little but scared to be uprooted, and use money as an excuse.

You sound like a man who has never been truly broke.

pax

Hirlau
March 20, 2009, 09:21 PM
AMEN

ar15chase
March 20, 2009, 09:24 PM
Just leaving is mich harder than you think peet. I have been broke before. I dont have the money to just get up a run. And I dont think many people do. I would rather defend a home in a bad "hood" than to live out of a shopping cart.

Brian Pfleuger
March 20, 2009, 09:24 PM
You sound like a man who has never been truly broke.

I wish. I have NOT been truly broke and living in a high crime area but for too many years I made the monthly choice of food vs electric. I don't mean to put anybody down or sound like I'm looking down my nose at poor people. I certainly am not. I know that there are people who make excuses to cover up the real reasons they do things, that's all. Certainly not everybody.


Maybe we just don't want to leave our homes! Regardless of the crime rate.

I don't want to battle at all. In fact, that answer is what I'm looking for. I'm not judging anybody for staying or leaving. I'm just asking, why? That's your why and it's cool.


I would rather defend a home in a bad "hood" than to live out of a shopping cart.

As would I. The thing is that I think many people think it's going to be just that kind of choice but usually it's not. As I outlined above, sometimes it easier than that. People might be making 50k a year and think "Heck, I can't live in in XYZ, can't get a job for over 25k there..." but then the cost of living is 1/2 what it is where they are now. Or, they make 15k per year and think "I can't move, it's to expensive.", when all they REALLY need to do is find an apartment and buy a $25 bus ticket.

vsgonzo
March 20, 2009, 09:26 PM
i travel an hour into work and an hour back home from work (Houston, tx). I work for the Feds, and I carry a badge. Never know what who may be following or what may happen along the roads. Law enforcement people tend to have that over the should look to them.

Times are getting rough, but to be honest I carry my duty H&K p2000 fully loaded. Occasionally I'll take my off duty mag pouch with 2 mags.

hogdogs
March 20, 2009, 09:30 PM
Pax has eaten hotdogs out of necessity I can tell!
Folks just do not comprehend the financial implications of a major move... If you are unlucky you will spend a gob of benjamins to move... At worst you have first, last and security deposit plus security dog fee... so let's say you move into a $1,000 dollar place... that is $3,000 plus 500 or a grand for the dog if they even allow it. You wait for electric deposit from old place and new place deposit is based on a 1 year average of previous tenant. Mine was $380. so we are already at near $4,000 bucks and we live on under $24K annual. This don't touch the expenses involved in the drive. If you are leaving a "BAD PLACE" YOU ARE GOING MORE THAN A FEW MILES....
That is a tuff piece of meat to swallow for your average redneck. Lucky for me I was able to move into a tiny place with low move in to get the heck outta "dodge" errrr daytona beach....
Brent

Brian Pfleuger
March 20, 2009, 09:35 PM
so let's say you move into a $1,000 dollar place... that is $3,000 plus 500 or a grand for the dog if they even allow it. You wait for electric deposit from old place and new place deposit is based on a 1 year average of previous tenant. Mine was $380. so we are already at near $4,000 bucks and we live on under $24K annual.

See, that's my point. A $1000 apartment in my area is LUXURY. Seriously. You can live here for $350-450 a month, pretty easy. You can certainly find places that want no more than a security deposit, $400, up front. Virtually no one charges for a dog. They may not allow it but if they do they generally don't charge. Also, typically no electric deposit or gas deposit. No other money at all.

Basically, you could move to this area for $400 and a bus ticket. Yes, $400 can be A LOT of money. I guess part of what I'm asking, or saying, is that if I lived in a dangerous place, I'd find a job someplace like central NY, skip the electric bill next month and move. The electric company can wait for their money. Sometimes life is like that. They've waited before, they can wait again.

Dr. Strangelove
March 20, 2009, 09:39 PM
See, I actually think it's easier for people in that type of situation to move. (Personal experience, my sister has been that "waffle house waitress".) Nothing to take with you, really. My area again as an example. You can rent a fully furnished house around here for maybe $600/month. Sure, it wouldn't be fun and you'd be on a shoestring but you'd be safER and your kids are in a better environment. Heck, a single mom with two kids could use the tips from one night at work to buy the bus tickets.

I don't think you understand the economic realties of a large portion of the population. $600.00 in rent is more than many people bring home in a month. Add in utilities and food, they're not going to be able to survive, not to mention that that landlord probably wouldn't rent that home to our hypothetical person. That single mom may well use the tips for one night to buy the bus tickets (I'm assuming you mean to move to a new city), but then what? You're moving with no job? Good luck renting anything, cause your credit is probably shot, too. Just hoping a new job is on the horizon?

As far as not being fun and being on a shoestring, there are people who would love to be in that situation. The more broke you get, the more broke you get. Can't afford a phone or transportation? Kiss the job goodbye. Then where are you? Money is not an excuse when you have to choose between eating and paying bills.

By the way pax, I am a man who has been truly broke, if it doesn't show.:)

Hirlau
March 20, 2009, 09:43 PM
If this Guy shows up in my neighborhood; I'm coming to live with you, peetzakiller
:eek:

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk73/typhoonwinds/godzilla4.gif

Brian Pfleuger
March 20, 2009, 09:47 PM
Well, this has gone right down the crapper.


I know what hard times are. I have felt less than worthless because I couldn't take care of my wife. We wanted desperately to have children for years, and couldn't afford the treatments. I have wondered if every truck that goes slowly by the house is the electric company shutting off the power, or maybe the repo man looking for my car. Even now it leaves a knot in my stomach to think about it.


Maybe I worded my query poorly. I don't know. I was not after a "$XX dollars is a lot of money" argument.

Some people live in dangerous places and can afford to move, even if some can't. There is no logic is endangering your life for money or anything else. I thought it would be a fairly simple question, one that might get people to think. Apparently, I was wrong.

P5 Guy
March 20, 2009, 09:49 PM
When I moved into the house the neighborhood was mostly Snow Birds and retired couples. Well, it didn't take them long to start dieing and going into "Old Folks Homes". Their kids that still live up north either had no need or are waiting to retire and are now renting these houses to people that do not have the same values as the Snow Birds did.
Because most of the houses are 2/1s they are cheaper and the last few years saw a lot of flippers and investors. The ratio of renters to live in owners has changed. The class of renter is lower and there are more non-working/single parent types than ever before.
We own the property free and clear and do not want to move and take on another loan. We are hoping that when the economy picks up soon and the out of state landlords can find better tenants for their rentals.
The combination of absentee landlords and welfare renters has made this nice working class/retiree neighborhood go down hill in the last two years. More property crime, more fighting and more drug dealing are obvious. I'm glad that we work evening shifts. Most of the property crime is just after school lets out. The fighting and dealing is during the dark hours and by the time we get home it is mostly over.
Like I said we own the property and when we can retire we are out of here!

hogdogs
March 20, 2009, 09:50 PM
Peet, Have you ever tried to use a bus to move? Also if the rent is so cheap there why move? Bad place? Well there you go...
Also how much is a place that is in a good spot with 3-4 bedrooms? I have 2 kids and they are opposite sex and teens so sharing a room is out... I choose to have dogs so I need a yard. I happen to own many dogs for hunting, several are BULLDOGS which are not allowed on many insurance policies so many folks cannot rent to me...
I know a good deal when I see it and I am in a 3/2 brick on 5+ acres in the country paying 800 a month with out the 3rd part of the pre rent but it took me 3 places in 1 3/4 years to get settled down. The rents you mention are fairy tale in most of the good spots in this nation with many places being 1,000 a month for a one bedroom in a dive neighborhood...
Brent

Hirlau
March 20, 2009, 09:57 PM
I think your OP was a good question. I'm glad you asked it. I just feel you have a hard time understanding/accepting the responses. I probably would feel the same way too, 2 years ago. I thought more along your trac of mind , until this last year. I have put more into this neighborhood crime vs move idea more than you can imagine. If it was only me, maybe I would have left to Texas. But someday my Son would have asked why we left Miami. I don't have an answer for him now that bI feel comfortable with.


Godzilla was just to lighten the mood of this thread, alittle.

Gubba
March 20, 2009, 10:00 PM
I've had relatives move out of the city, to smaller areas, thinking they would be safer. WRONG. Full of creepy marauders at night, meth labs up the ying ying and an all-round seige mentality. Unless you can go to a nice little spot in the woods that can be protected, sometimes it's better to stay put and make nice-nice with the neighbors and let everyone know the crotchety old fart down the block is crazy and would just a soon shoot you. The neighbor kids look at you kinda funny but their parents don't bug you about much of anything.

pax
March 20, 2009, 10:00 PM
P5guy,

It's amazing how fast a neighborhood can go downhill when the demographics change just a little.

My parents used to live in a "seniors only" community. After they'd been there awhile, they said they could not believe the number of old people being taken advantage of or outright terrorized by their own children and grandchildren. They were surprised how un-safe they felt in their safe community for seniors.

pax

Brian Pfleuger
March 20, 2009, 10:11 PM
I'm glad you asked it. I just feel you have a hard time understanding/accepting the responses.

It's less a matter of understanding and more that virtually every response has been a hypothetical "what if your broke" and not a real answer. I was hoping for more actual answers from board members. I know we're not all broke and I know some of us live in crappy places. What I DON'T understand is the logic involved in that scenario.

If your answer is "It's MY house. I'm NOT leaving!" Well, fine. I'm not arguing that, I'm asking why? Why do think your home is worth more than your life? Have you ever REALLY thought about it from that angle. Does it make sense for us to cling to possessions at the (potential) expense of our lives?

Maybe the answer is "Hey, we have a shooting every night. I like the excitement." Well, OK, that's fine too. Weird, but fine.

When the "you have no sympathy for the downtrodden" pops up every time a question is raised it just sort of irritates me.

Rescue2
March 20, 2009, 10:18 PM
Peet,
All of the examples of a reasonable cost of living that you've provided so far are from a region that you are familiar with.

That is not the case in many of the metropolitan areas, particularly out here in the southwest.

Much of our population is in the "serivce" industry (read minimum wage or close to it).

Rents are fairly high.

Deposits are required for ALL utilities (elec/gas/water/phone - if landline).

Moving once somebody gets into a place becomes less of an option, primarily because they may have tried to find the nicest place they could afford (be it for amenities or a sense of security), and they are living paycheck to paycheck.

Promotions, or raises, or whatever it takes to boost one's income may not be frequent enough to offset the cost of living increases...

Trying to save up the extra money to "get out of Dodge" takes quite a while, when the percentage of income required to actually make that move seems to be a diminishing vision on the horizon.

"Stuff" happens, and folks get overcome by surrounding events. Also known as "Life"...

Then the less desireable elements of our society start to show up in our happy little enclaves.

Maybe as a next door neighbor, or on the next street over.

Could be that they, too, are looking for a nicer area to live, but invariably, their ilk follow along the path of migration, turning once nice neighborhoods into "hoods"...

We've been in our current home for just coming up on 20 years, and it's still a relatively safe place to live.

However, the gangbangers are near enough to give cause for concern, which raises the need for awareness and greater levels of security around the house.

Move?? Because of the threat level? Nope. Did it once 20 years ago, and lost about 30% of the value of the home.

As has been said before, we see this as our home. Not a house, but a home where our kids were able to grow up with a sense of stability.

We could have sold a couple of years ago for a significant gain/profit, but anywhere we would have wanted to buy would have been at a similarly inflated price.

We elected to stay put, and improve our "castle"...

As a last point to consider, we've invested a lot of time in our neighbors, knowing them, helping them, even "loving" them.

This is "our" (our familiy and the neighbor's) turf, and we'll keep an eye on it...

pax
March 20, 2009, 10:24 PM
peetzakilla,

My answer wasn't a bit hypothetical. We moved as soon as we could afford to move. We simply had no way out during the time we lived there. That's the cold hard facts -- and you all but called me a liar for saying so. Twice. Probably didn't mean to, so I don't take offense, but I do observe that it's quite possible that others in the same situation might not take it so kindly when you imply they're liars when they tell you their reasons.

pax

JohnKSa
March 20, 2009, 10:36 PM
These discussions and differences arise because people either refuse to believe there's a difference or because they can't understand the difference between expectation and preparedness.

I don't carry a spare mag because I EXPECT to need it, I carry it so that I will be PREPARED in the event that I do need it.

Nnobby45
March 20, 2009, 10:44 PM
Why do think your home is worth more than your life? Have you ever REALLY thought about it from that angle.


No, I haven't thought of it from that angle.

I like the angle that my right to live without my civil liberties being trampled on by thugs was paid for with the blood of better men, and, sometimes, women than you or I.

As opposed to just up and moving from the home in which we raised our children because you think it's just a matter of personal safety.

Doesn't matter what reason we give you, Peezakiller, you just want to express your disapproval and admonish people for being willing stand up for themselves and not pull up their roots and abandon their homes.

The thread was disingenuous from the start and amounts to little more than an ambush at others' expense. Enjoying yourself?:rolleyes::cool:

David Armstrong
March 20, 2009, 11:05 PM
The theoretical possibility of crime does not make a place dangerous. What is the crime RATE?
Excelent point. Many, probably most, people have no idea how dangerous or how safe their area really is. It is one of those interesting crime facts that as the U.S. has become safer and safer over the last decade people's fear of crime has grown greater. Also, those with the greatest likelihood of victimization often tend to be the least fearful of crime while those with low rates of victimization tend to be more fearful.

David Armstrong
March 20, 2009, 11:12 PM
You sound like a man who has never been truly broke.
Or maybe some here haven't been truly fearful? Back around 1964 my Dad packed up a wife and three young children in a station wagon and left California for Oklahoma with $50 in his pocket and a picnic basket full bread and peanut butter. Neighborhood had become too dangerous and nothing was more important than the safety of his family.

There is no logic is endangering your life for money or anything else.
Exactly. I understood your point, and I agree. Of course, when it comes to safety I bet many here would easily justify buying another gun or such, even while they say moving would be impossible.

Nnobby45
March 20, 2009, 11:24 PM
Excelent point. Many, probably most, people have no idea how dangerous or how safe their area really is. It is one of those interesting crime facts that as the U.S. has become safer and safer over the last decade people's fear of crime has grown greater. Also, those with the greatest likelihood of victimization often tend to be the least fearful of crime while those with low rates of victimization tend to be more fearful.

That's an interesting point. In some ways you'd be "safer" in a "dangerous" area because you'd be on guard.

Relaxing one's guard because one thinks he's safe has been the downfall of more than a few. If I were a criminal, I'd hunt where all you folks figured you're safe.


People who find themselves on the way to the ATM with Bubba to withdraw their savings while Bubba's friends hold a gun to their family's heads usually live in neighborhoods where "those things don't happen".

Of course, there's always the "there's so many other Zebras in the herd, why should I worry?" syndrome.

Or the Peezakiller syndrome, "Why do you think YOU need to worry about it?":D


Incidentally, I carry everywhere I go, where legal, and let others play musical "do I need to take my gun just to go to........?".

Hirlau
March 20, 2009, 11:35 PM
Quote; "Exactly. I understood your point, and I agree. Of course, when it comes to safety I bet many here would easily justify buying another gun or such, even while they say moving would be impossible."

Is every decision in our (Humans) lives based on LOGIC?:confused:

You already know the answer. ;)

I refused to be pushed accross the country for greener pastures, like a herd of sheep.

Nnobby45, put it right: "I like the angle that my right to live without my civil liberties being trampled on by thugs was paid for with the blood of better men, and, sometimes, women than you or I.

As opposed to just up and moving from the home in which we raised our children because you think it's just a matter of personal safety.

Catfishman
March 20, 2009, 11:40 PM
How do you find a "safe" place? Around here rural doesn't mean safe. Jackson and New Orleans are some of the most violent cities in the nation. But I live in a little town of 1800 people and I personally know 3 people who have been murdered in the last ten years. Also my kindergarten teacher was raped and had her throat slit but she survived. Three years ago I actually saw a dead shooting victim slumped over his steering wheel in a near by town. My bet is that per capita some of the most dangerous places in the U.S. are small towns. My point is how do you define and find a "safe" place.

Swampghost
March 20, 2009, 11:46 PM
We just move.
Place going down hill? Get out before property values go into the pits.

3 moves in the same area and now the freakin' FAA is directing jets over the house again. If this area wasn't SO perfect I'd be out of here.

By perfect I mean hunting 365, and fishing.

MothersLilHelper
March 21, 2009, 01:11 AM
Peetzakilla wrote: "What is the crime RATE?"

We don't care what the crime rate is, Pizza. The high-rate and the low-rate are aggregates and we aren't certain about their application (this is just risk math, not philosophy.) Since the payoff if you "win" is so asymmetric with the continued bliss of 'losing' the standard 'rate' math doesn't apply. Think of it rather as actuarial tables (skewed by libertarian fruit-cakery, to which I subscribe). EDITING: a 92% safe rate is not comparable by folk-psych humans against a 94% safe rate, when 2% of the incidents in Class A are nasty versus .75% of the incidents in Class B. Stats are a lovely refuge, but a fake refuge.* We can start another topic if TFL has a board appropriate to discussions of mathematics.

I'm pretty well-off and won't leave my decent neighborhood (which has some burglars working it, sadly) for the following reasons:

1. I have an alarm system and a dog and I usually carry in the house.
2. It's my neighborhood and I like it here and I will not bow to random violence (and granted, my neighborhood is like kitten wrestling compared with Detroit.)
3.We would certainly be underwater which is not a big deal, but it's suboptimal.
4. My mother told me we should move.
5. Mrs. MLH loves it here.

:)

*Unless I'm wrong.

KC9LDB
March 21, 2009, 01:34 AM
Apparently I live in a "dangerous" place, so says everyone that comes to my area, I don't see it dangerous at all, we have like "projects" as people call them, well they look like apartments to me, and there are a lot of nice people living there, sure we have gangs and drugs, but we don't see the crime, there has never been a shooting as far as i recall, worst is the graffiti sometimes which is cleaned up quick, people are just getting old around here, giving up on the bad stuff, Woodridge (Hoodridge), is just a town where people are just trying to make ends meet, and deal with the high taxes, we have no time for crime out here, the gangs and druggies even think its boring out here. Im pretty sure that if there was ever to be a bad crime here, it would be an out of towner, and his or her ass would be handed to him by the folks out this way.

JohnKSa
March 21, 2009, 01:54 AM
Since the payoff if you "win" is so asymmetric with the continued bliss of 'losing' the standard 'rate' math doesn't apply.Exactly. People don't buy lottery tickets because their odds of winning are good, they buy them because there's a HUGE payoff if they do win. In short, people buy lottery tickets in spite of the odds against winning because the positive consequences of winning are so attractive.

Carrying a gun is a similar proposition. One doesn't carry a gun because the odds of needing it are high. One carries a gun in spite of the poor odds of needing it because the cost of NOT carrying it could be extreme.

nate45
March 21, 2009, 02:42 AM
I've always realized what a huge advantage I've enjoyed my whole life, by being in the lower part of the upper middle class. I would just call myself upper middle class without the lower part qualifier, but lots of multimillion aires, David Letterman is an example that comes to mind, call themselves upper middle class instead of rich.

That also speaks to a different point, class, behavior in society, the way you take care of your property and treat others, is more a function of your upbringing than it is of monetary wealth. Many people who came from the lower classes and have suddenly acquired fame and wealth continue to exhibit the behavior of the class they came from. Britney Spears, Snoop Dog, etc all continue to behave in a low class manner from which they came.

All of the above is not to say that many good law abiding people in society don't start out in a lower class and then end up 'making good'. However as a general rule though, even middle class and rich criminals tend to take good care of their property and not do petty crimes and acts of vandalism.

Its very hard to leave the class one is born into, very hard to generate the income that establishes yourself as middle class, without the advantage of having rich or middle class parents to get you started.

So now directly to the question poised in the OP, I believe that there are not many people with the means to move from a high crime area who do not. Also in most areas, even those considered bad, you will find enclaves of wealthier people, business owners, etc who have added security and who are excluding undesirable types, by the amount of rent they pay or purchase price of their homes.

So at the end of the day the people who are living in high crime neighborhoods and are good and decent people who have the social skills to 'fit in' with a higher class, most probably are lacking the funds to move, not the desire. So my advice to them would be to get more education or training so as to try and raise the funds to move.

One final thought remember class is more a state of mind than it is of monetary wealth, but having a pocket full sure doesn't hurt.:)

As far as me personally, another fellow upper middle class boy, Jim Morrison said it best in the song The Changeling.


I live uptown

I live downtown

I live all around

I had money, and I had none x2

But I never been so broke

That I couldn't leave town

Im a changeling, see me change x2

hogdogs
March 21, 2009, 02:59 AM
Nate, I may be the abnorm... I was raised as poor as dirt. I wore button down shirts my mom made cuz we couldn't afford factory made. I hunted food for the family knowing momma didn't really like cooking small game and my sisters wouldn't eat it. I feel financial classes are chump compared to ethical, moral, manner based upbringing! How you were raised is far and above beyond how much cash you had...
Class is how you hold yourself in the public eye and INTEGRITY is what you do when no one is watching!
Put the 2 of them in high regard and money don't matter!
Paris Hilton will never exude one tenth the class my baby girl, Lil Miss.hogdogs and she spends more in a month than my baby has ever seen and in one year she spends more than I reckon my baby will ever earn unless she knuckles down for MD or lawyer and she says Doc is too tuff to make and lawyers are sharks she decided she can't swim with!
Class is in the raising! NOT THE WALLET!
Brent

nate45
March 21, 2009, 03:41 AM
I feel financial classes are chump compared to ethical, moral, manner based upbringing! How you were raised is far and above beyond how much cash you had...

Thats true for the most part and basically what I said. Many, many people who were raised by good families have done well in life whether they started out prosperous or not and are good members of society. However high moral values do not move one out of the inner city, financial wherewithal does.

I didn't mean for my commentary to be a slight on anyone Brent, I don't look down on anyone for reasons of class. I'm a very down to earth person who does and has done my share of work, however you cannot over look the fact that the impartation of the moral and ethical values of which you speak, is becoming less and less the norm.

PS: Paris Hilton's behavior is not caused by her social class its from mental retardation.:p

hogdogs
March 21, 2009, 03:58 AM
Man, I never thunk a ho like her was retarded! But I think you got me there! Yeah I raised mine "tight" meaning they know that any and everything reflects on all of us from the same brood nest. My folks raised me as this...
" We are po' folk, we have nothin to offer you but a clean last name.... if'n you dirty that then you put dirt on all that precede you..." My momma was HARDCORE!!!! dirty her REP and you got troubles the law could never equal! She was tenacious about her reputation...
Brent

nate45
March 21, 2009, 04:22 AM
We are veering Peetza's thread off course, but I just have to add that at one time in this country the majority of people shared the attitude and beliefs of Brent and his Mother.

Look at the Great Depression, notorious figures like Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde, etc gained that notoriety because bank robbery and lawlessness were an aberration and not the norm. Nowadays multiple banks get robbed every week and they usually only make the local news.

If the vast majority of people in this country still lived by and raised their families by the high moral and ethical standards that Brent and his Mother do and did, we would not have "dangerous' areas that needed escaping.

alloy
March 21, 2009, 05:46 AM
After living in vegas on boulder highway, yuma/san luis, east point and little 5 points atlanta, asbury park jersey, richmond virginia and lots of extended hotel time in a few other places...i figure i like the people. I agree with KC9LDB and post 48. Lots of people live in areas, and get by just fine without worry.

Tamara
March 21, 2009, 05:48 AM
I live in a nice inner-city neighborhood. There are shady little residential streets and on the main arteries you'll find restaurants and pubs and art galleries and vintage clothing boutiques. There are some pretty seedy areas not far to the south, but the gentrified area has been expanding, not contracting.

I suppose it would be safer in the 'burbs or the country, but I like being able to walk to the grocery store or ride my bike to the brewpub. Besides, staying alert and not being involved socially with criminals are the two best preventatives there are.

Truthfully, I'm statistically more likely to need to use my CCW on a stray dog than I am a human assailant.

alloy
March 21, 2009, 05:58 AM
I live in a nice inner-city neighborhood.

Nothing better. High diversity, lots of culture....things are always interesting. +1 for the inner city.:)

Brian Pfleuger
March 21, 2009, 10:13 AM
That's the cold hard facts -- and you all but called me a liar for saying so. Twice.

Kathy,

I hold you in very high regard. I meant no disrespect to anyone, least of all you. Please forgive me for the implication that you were not honest in your answers. It was not intended.


We don't care what the crime rate is, Pizza. The high-rate and the low-rate are aggregates and we aren't certain about their application (this is just risk math, not philosophy.) Since the payoff if you "win" is so asymmetric with the continued bliss of 'losing' the standard 'rate' math doesn't apply. Think of it rather as actuarial tables (skewed by libertarian fruit-cakery, to which I subscribe). EDITING: a 92% safe rate is not comparable by folk-psych humans against a 94% safe rate, when 2% of the incidents in Class A are nasty versus .75% of the incidents in Class B. Stats are a lovely refuge, but a fake refuge.* We can start another topic if TFL has a board appropriate to discussions of mathematics.


We don't have to know the math. We know when an area is safe or not safe. My area is safe. There are parts of NY city, to this very day, that you would be attacked for making eye contact with the wrong person. That is NOT safe. I happen to know BOTH things. The numbers that are put out by the Feds and the basic common sense of day to day life.


Basic common sense tells me that there are some places that are not safe ENOUGH for my family. We have already established that money is a primary reason why people stay in those places. Interestingly, some people stay in those places because they have too little money, while others stay because they have too much.

The other well established reason for staying is that it's "MY home, I will not be driven out." It is tenuous ground to even attempt a discussion on that premise. I have noticed that the people who make those statements tend to be defensive and not willing to discuss the logic behind the decisions. A discussion can be had in which people disagree, even about basic life choices, without hostilities. My questioning the reasoning or logic behind those ideas is not a personal attack any more than that person disagreeing with my logic.

Creature
March 21, 2009, 10:22 AM
I live in an area that I consider dangerous enough because, basically, I am forced to live here. I am stationed in the Hampton Roads "seven cities" area of Virginia and I am not paid enough by the DoD to live in the "nicer" (aka safer) areas. Since I choose not to live in government housing, most of which are not "gated communities" anyway, you could say that I chose to live in my crappy neighborhood.

grymster2007
March 21, 2009, 11:13 AM
As a youngster, I grew up pretty poor and lived in a number of areas of the country. Seems my first four houses had a hitch on the front. Some of the places were decent and some were dangerous. As an adult, I finally managed, about ten years ago, to move to one of the most exclusive little enclaves in this county. Major shopping and any other service one might require, including dangerous neighborhoods can be found mere minutes away, but I enjoy living in a relaxed "safe-feeling" place. Many think I pay a lot for the privilege, but I've seen the alternatives and I say it's well worth it.

Chui
March 21, 2009, 11:14 AM
Why Do YOU live in a "dangerous" area?

Because the entire planet is classified as a "dangerous area". You didn't get the memo?

:D

Masada
March 21, 2009, 11:39 AM
Some of it is a matter of perspective. IMO you have to consider two types of crime. One is the ordinary, garden variety, "we live on a tough planet" sort of crime. That's broken down into violent crime and crime against property.

From the FBI, 2007 stats (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/2007prelim/table4.htm)

Where I used to live: Pop 271,000 (metro area 2.5 million)

violent crime 2327
murder 14
rape 173
robbery 777
prop crime 11,118


Where I live now (1200 miles away): Pop 100,000

violent crime 200
murder 3
rape 20
robbery 54
prop crime 4,280 (note that if you leave your car unlocked and someone takes CDs out it, it's reported in the paper on Mondays as a property crime....)



Seems safer to me. FEELS safer to me. I have a teenage daughter and I certainly think she's less likely to be raped or end up on a milk carton here.

That's general crime. The other kind of crime is the directed crime against who I am. The FBI calls that hate crime. It's on the increase everywhere, especially against certain groups. I'm a member of a couple of them. I think I am more likely to see it coming here, and have a chance to react. We have OC, easy CC, and castle doctrine. On the downside, since it's not very metropolitan here, I have a lower chance of the police giving a damn.

No place is truly safe. You have to make the best of what you have, where you are, and what options you see.

gruntrus
March 21, 2009, 11:46 AM
I think you are assuming that we all live in a place where we rent. We live in a dangerous place now because the illegals have moved into the neighborhood and brought their drug trade with them;heroin. Our house has been for sale for a long time, reasonably priced.

13 years age when we bought the house it was a great and safe place to live. Now we have installed bolts on everything, locked during the day when we are home, and the garage door is NEVER open but to bring out a vehicle. We live in a "dangerous" place because our local politicians needed to get $6 an hour labor for their buddies that own businesses. Fact.






"Moving is NOT that expensive, especially when you consider the the money that many people spend to stay safe in a dangerous place. What keeps you in a place that is not "safe"."

grymster2007
March 21, 2009, 11:59 AM
We live in a "dangerous" place because our local politicians needed to get $6 an hour labor for their buddies that own businesses. Fact. There's more to it than that. The bleeding hearts, labor unions, the global village types, declining moral values and politicians seeking tax revenue are also responsible to one degree or other. And my list probably not complete either. But to simply blame business for you living in a dangerous area is a bit simple.

David Armstrong
March 21, 2009, 12:16 PM
Is every decision in our (Humans) lives based on LOGIC?
Of course not, and while the logical response is not always the best response it is sort of sad to see logic tossed aside for things like putting others in greater danger, IMO.
I refused to be pushed accross the country for greener pastures, like a herd of sheep.
That is certainly your choice, and as you said, it doesn't have to be logical. Lots of people have died or been hurt over ego, pride, and other values, and if that is more important than the safety and well-being of your family, then there is nothing wrong with it for you.

David Armstrong
March 21, 2009, 12:17 PM
How do you find a "safe" place? Around here rural doesn't mean safe. Jackson and New Orleans are some of the most violent cities in the nation. But I live in a little town of 1800 people and I personally know 3 people who have been murdered in the last ten years.
You find safeR, you find LESS dangerous.

Tucker 1371
March 21, 2009, 12:20 PM
I kinda live out in the boonies on what used to be my grandparents cattle farm so theres not exactly a high crime rate. However, my grandparents who live nextdoor have been broken into twice, the second time a .454 slug chased them out the door and it hasn't happened since. I still keep either a loaded shotgun or my AK within five feet of my bed when I'm home from college though because we have some shady types drop by every now-and-then who look like they're scoping our place out.

David Armstrong
March 21, 2009, 12:21 PM
We don't care what the crime rate is, Pizza.
And that pretty much says it all, IMO. Let's not care what the facts are, let's not engage in a reasoned and reasonable analysis.

mavracer
March 21, 2009, 12:57 PM
That is certainly your choice, and as you said, it doesn't have to be logical. Lots of people have died or been hurt over ego, pride, and other values, and if that is more important than the safety and well-being of your family, then there is nothing wrong with it for you.
before you throw out an arguement like that you ought to know many here have family who have made the ultimate sacrifice and have themselves put their lives on the line for your FREEDOM and the LIBERTY to make said remark.

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.Ben Franklin

David Armstrong
March 21, 2009, 01:05 PM
before you throw out an arguement like that you ought to know many here have family who have made the ultimate sacrifice and have themselves put their lives on the line for your FREEDOM and the LIBERTY to make said remark.
Which is totally irrelevant to the discussion, so I'm not sure why one would even post it. If you want to compare family sacrifice and who has put their life on the line and so on I'll be glad to play.
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.Ben Franklin
Perhaps you could explain what essential liberty is being given up if one logically decides to move for the safety of their family or themselves??

mavracer
March 21, 2009, 01:13 PM
Perhaps you could explain what essential liberty is being given up if one logically decides to move for the safety of their family or themselves??
I'll try.
Because your not free to live where you want.
and whats gonna happen when you run out of safe places to live?

Hirlau
March 21, 2009, 01:19 PM
Quote: "That is certainly your choice, and as you said, it doesn't have to be logical. Lots of people have died or been hurt over ego, pride, and other values, and if that is more important than the safety and well-being of your family, then there is nothing wrong with it for you."

" Let's not care what the facts are, let's not engage in a reasoned and reasonable analysis. "

Nothing is more important than my Family, all of us here feel the same way. "Other Values", as you put it, is what keeps us in our community.

Of course, the responsibility that goes along with those
"Other Values", requires a set of BALLS ! :eek:

Brian Pfleuger
March 21, 2009, 01:33 PM
Let's not get personal.

Masada
March 21, 2009, 01:40 PM
How 'bout impersonal? Fictional?

Look at Clint Eastwood's characterin Gran Torino. His neighborhood went to heck. He didn't move.

Why should I move because other people can't behave? Maybe they should behave, eh? Call the cops. Form a neighborhood watch. Sponsor a Boy Scout troop.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

skoro
March 21, 2009, 02:00 PM
My area has been considered very safe, relatively speaking, until the past year or so. Since I'm pretty close to the Mexican border, that's all changed recently. Still, crime on this side of the border tends to be low. But the threat of the drug cartels' violence spilling over into Texas is real and always in the back of one's mind.

Brian Pfleuger
March 21, 2009, 02:28 PM
How 'bout impersonal? Fictional?

Look at Clint Eastwood's characterin Gran Torino. His neighborhood went to heck. He didn't move.

Why should I move because other people can't behave?

Thinking that you can make real life emulate the movies is a dangerous proposition, to say the least. If I have to live in the movies I'd rather be a Jedi than a neighborhood vigilante.

I'm all for trying to improve the neighborhood. I only have two concerns with that. First, it should be done BEFORE the place goes to hell. Second, how many of us actually do ANYTHING to try and make things better? 20% of the people do 80% of the work, that's true just about everywhere.

JohnKSa
March 21, 2009, 03:54 PM
Some things to consider.

In today's housing market, moving is not as simple as it sounds unless you can afford to make payments on two houses until the old one sells. There are also other practical reasons why a person might be unable or completely unwilling to move.

Which gets me to my next point. If the people who ARE are mobile simply move when an area begins to go downhill, the ones who are really hurt are the less mobile folks--people who can't afford to buy another house or who don't have the ability or resources to move. That often tends to be the elderly.Second, how many of us actually do ANYTHING to try and make things better? 20% of the people do 80% of the work, that's true just about everywhere.The question shouldn't be "How many of us actually do something?" it should be "Why am I not doing something?" I've seen ONE person turn a neighborhood around. While many people aren't willing to actually make the effort to get things started, most will help out to some extent once someone else has kicked things off.

We like to focus on guns as a solution since this is a firearms forum, but avoiding the need to use a firearm is better than having to shoot someone. Sometimes you avoid the need by changing your location, but it's even better if you can avoid the need by making your location safer.

grymster2007
March 21, 2009, 04:26 PM
I've seen ONE person turn a neighborhood around. Happens every time I move! :)

Why am I not doing something? Best point yet made. Now, there's not a lot to do in my neighborhood, but with that question as kind of a mindset, keeping the place nice would be easier.

Creature
March 21, 2009, 06:37 PM
I've seen ONE person turn a neighborhood around.

Its already well underway in my neighborhood. It all started with simply waving and saying "Hello!" to my neighbors three years ago when we moved in. Now we have a neighborhood watch in effect which has led to the arrest of a bunch of teenagers as they burglarized a neighbor's home.

David Armstrong
March 21, 2009, 07:25 PM
I'll try.
Because your not free to live where you want.
Sure you are. You can live where it is more dangerous or where it is less dangerous. Nobody is depriving you of any essential liberty.
and whats gonna happen when you run out of safe places to live?
Given that the U.S. is getting safer rather than more dangerous, I'm not too worried about that.

jgcoastie
March 21, 2009, 07:31 PM
You can rent a fully furnished house around here for maybe $600/month.

WOW! You're lucky to get a 1 bedroom, unfurnished studio apartment for double that up here...

That being said, I do live in a very safe neighborhood - on-base military housing, across the street from the MILPOL office... On-base concealed carry is not allowed. However, whenever I'm headed off base I carry my primary and a spare mag. Kodiak is a 'safe' community, but you never know when, where, or why that fateful moment may come...

Stay Safe.

Nnobby45
March 21, 2009, 07:31 PM
Quote:
I've seen ONE person turn a neighborhood around.

Happens every time I move!


How long before the neighborhood recovered?:D

Rifleman 173
March 21, 2009, 07:48 PM
Your bad area = my well-stocked hunting preserve... Same place just a different mental outlook on things.

MothersLilHelper
March 21, 2009, 09:55 PM
or maybe I just did some super crappy writing. David and Peetzakilla: I'm sorry for not being more clear.

David wrote: And that pretty much says it all, IMO. Let's not care what the facts are, let's not engage in a reasoned and reasonable analysis.

Which is fine to say, but not at all what I'm talking about. My fault for writing while bouncing the baby. I may deserve that, so, wincing, I'll try to be more clear.

What I'm saying instead is that there are places which are 'safer' and places which are 'less safe' but the boundaries can be quite close statistically. If you look at the rest of my post, I think you could see (reading it charitably, maybe) that what I'm talking about has some thought and analysis behind it. Maybe it really is that terribly written. :) One other poster got what I was talking about with lotteries and expected payouts (if you'll forgive my petulant whining). I don't want to live in Darfur. But the argument from common sense that Peetza refers to is problematic, because common sense lies to us quite often and we are in general blind to its deficiencies.

Anyway: you consider your stats and you make your plans, but you make your plans based on stats that don't really matter. You make your move to Smallville where it's super safe, quit wearing your gun and then Joe Nutso shoots up the church, or feed store or whatever and you're unarmed because you believe your stats and didn't realize you were in a lottery. This is why I say "We don't care what the crime rate is" because of the asymmetries in payouts. There are places where you can expect to 'win' the crime lottery a lot more often--statistically, NYC is more dangerous than Blacksburg, VA. Murder rate is triple--but forcible rape is a third of Blacksburg's. Robbery, though, is ten times worse in NYC. Littleton, CO is safer than NYC in a lot of ways. But statistically, due to massacres, Blacksburg and Littleton are worse for college and high school students.

So that's why I don't care about the stats in aggregate: because the analysis might not actually matter. Don't think that I'm rejecting analysis outright, David--I'm trying very hard to think about what sort of analysis might actually matter. Risk management isn't about "what my risk 99% of the time"; it's about risk of ruin, and it's not clear to me that my risk of ruin is any greater living in Cincinnati, OH than it is in NYC. Cincinnati's murder rate is about quadruple NYC's (using the per 100,000 rates.) I lived in NYC for some time, and there are areas I would not go to, just as there are in Cincinnati--so my position, while that of a skeptic, is not that of a totally naive skeptic. But I'm just considering stats. If I add in 9/11, NYC has a higher murder rate over a longer time period than Cincinnati. But of course I shouldn't do that--it's common sense not to. Or is it?

(all crime stats, by the way, coming from Area connect. If'n you have better sources, educate me. Cincy vs. NYC located at: http://blacksburg.areaconnect.com/crime/compare.htm?c1=Cincinnati&s1=OH&c2=New+York&s2=NY)


Peetza: here's a small attack on the problem of common sense. It's not attacking you since it's a total strawman; it's simply illustrative:
A: Everybody knows NYC is a dangerous place--that's just common sense.
But, not quite A: Except NYC is actually much safer than national averages are for crime stats (click the link.)

So which is it that we are to believe (if in fact you think A was actually common sense)? You say you know the numbers put out by the Feds. OK. What time period? And why that time period? Do they chuck outliers? Is it as reliable as, say, the CPI is for inflation?

David, does this seem more reasoned and reasonable? Maybe problems in epistemology don't belong here but they seem germane to the OP.

mskdgunman
March 21, 2009, 10:15 PM
Petzakilla,
In Florida at least, LEO job's are at a premium. With the budget cuts we've had in the last few years (Thank you charlie crist), PD's and SO's in Fl are laying off officers. Granted, it's not that common yet but it is happening. Agencies are losing funding and cutting everything from training to take home cars and what ever else they can so finding a job is not always a given. My agency had to cut close to 10% from our budget. We haven't put new (read additional) officers on the street in close to 12 years. We're running the same number of officers (or less) as we were back when I started in 1990. The only time we hire is when someone quits, gets fired or retires...and sometimes not even then

Also, with 18 years at my current agency, starting over would put me at the bottom of the pile (retirement wise) and thats not something I really want to do right now

If push came to shove COULD I get another job with another agency? Probably but thats not something I want to try given the current economic condictions and the fact that I think I can see retirement at the end of the tunnel

rantingredneck
March 21, 2009, 10:35 PM
I presently live in a small subdivision in the country between Chapel Hill and Burlington, NC. Mostly young couples with kids. Couple of older couples. A few single folk. No drug problem (other than a couple of folks who I know are regular users of marijuana, but I could honestly care less).

I grew up in Fayetteville, NC. Home of Ft. Bragg and a fair amount of crime. I lived in a small community on the outskirts so at home things were fairly quiet and safe. Going into town for anything could sometimes be an adventure. I had a couple folks attempt to rob me. One "strong arm" attempt was 2 against me. When the first guy dropped with his nose shattered and bleeding the other guy got the hint (tip: Unopened can of Coke makes a nice improvised weapon. Rim around the bottom to the bridge of the nose is quite effective). I had another fellow try with a knife once as I was leaving a convenience store bathroom (the kind that are on the outside of the building). Bounced his head off the door behind me and took a wound to the upper arm in the process (tip: Doorknob to the noggin is effective, run like hell before he gets back up). Got a nice scar to remember that one by.

Where I lived was OK though. At that time of course I lived with my parents and they were limited by their modest income. I'm sure we could have moved, but my dad's job kept him near Fayetteville as that is where his company's office was based. He did what he knew......

For 3 years, after graduating from college and during and immediatly after my first marriage, I lived in a crappy little trailer park outside of Chapel Hill. It wasn't as bad as some, but it was bad enough. Never personally had a break in or anything along those lines. It was a mostly minority area. Some how I ended up with the reputation as being "that crazy white boy with all the guns who lives up on the hill". That may have helped my situation some. Not sure how I ended up with that rep as I tried my best not to advertise the fact that I was armed. I guess when you come and go hunting in camo and carrying a rifle case people notice.

At the time I had very little money. As a recent college grad working in rehab I had to pay my dues and earn my experience before getting a decent job. I made 16K per year. That doesn't go very far with a wife in grad school. Wore on our marriage too and we split before she graduated. Then "post separation support" cut into my funds even further. Between my full time job and my new part time job I could just about live. Ran up a bit of credit card debt during that time eating and paying the bills. I had 1 rifle 1 shotgun and 1 handgun so "with all the guns" was a bit of an exaggeration on my neighbor's parts.

Now, as I said, I live in a nice area. Not upscale. My house is modest as are the houses of my neighbors. Just a quiet little country subdivision with nice sized lots so we're not crowded on top of one another.

The area I work, leaves a bit to be desired at times. One thing about rehab centers and programs is that they typically aren't built in the nicest parts of town. Go a couple blocks in either direction from my office and you could probably buy any illicit pharmaceutical product that you like as well as the services of some of the scantily clad ladies that I see coming out as I'm leaving the office If I work much past 5PM. But this is the career path I've chosen (or sometimes I think it chose me). My building has been tagged a few times by MS13 and SUR13 gang members. We paint over it and move on. We've had some equipment get stolen from our fenced parking area a couple times. No violent crime issues though. I take the necessary precautions for the area that I work.

I love my job. I love the company I work for. I do what I know.......

Brian Pfleuger
March 21, 2009, 11:44 PM
Peetza: here's a small attack on the problem of common sense. It's not attacking you since it's a total strawman; it's simply illustrative:
A: Everybody knows NYC is a dangerous place--that's just common sense.
But, not quite A: Except NYC is actually much safer than national averages are for crime stats (click the link.)

I didn't say NY city was dangerous. I said there are places therein that you could get killed for making eye contact with the wrong person. As a whole NYC is one of the safest large cities. Anybody who "knows" that NY city is dangerous is NOT using common sense. They're in fact relying on data, 20 year old data, but data just the same.

My point is that no one has to tell you whether or not the place you live is dangerous. If you have any awareness at all you KNOW if you are generally safe or not. The question is If you live in a dangerous area, why?

I have actually gotten some useful answers.

Examples:

Some people are too broke to move. Although I still say that many (not all or even most but many) people really don't know what it would cost to move and could make it happen if they really had the desire.

Creature says, basically, "the government put me here." (He's military) It's hard to argue with that one. What's he supposed to do?

mskdgunman says that he believes he might have trouble getting another PD job and even if he could he doesn't relish the thought of starting over.

JohnKSa says don't move, make it a better place. Which, alright I guess, but is that something that we should be expected to do or is it something we can choose to try? I personally don't feel that I have a responsibility to live in a dangerous place while I try to make it better. I also have no particular connection or love for any particular place. Aside from family, I have no reason to stay anywhere special.

Others have stated that it's a freedom issue. I can see the principle behind that answer. I'm not sure I'd risk my family for that principle but if others have different ideas, fine.

These types of answers are why I started the thread. It was not intended to be an analysis of FBI crime rates.

A secondary question for contemplation:

If you do choose to live in a less than ideal area, is there a threshold of some kind that would cause you to throw in the towel? You know, if crime is maybe a 6 (1-10) right now, would you leave if it were an 8? A 9? When does safety over whelm all other concerns?

Mr Odd Six
March 21, 2009, 11:49 PM
I have such good neighbors out here in the sticks

We exchange range cards to make sure we have overlaping fire

mavracer
March 22, 2009, 12:01 AM
Sure you are. You can live where it is more dangerous or where it is less dangerous. Nobody is depriving you of any essential liberty.
look your the one that implied it was Illogical to value anything above your family's safety.
since this is an ideological debate I submit that if you would suggest moving (from where I assume you want to live) for your family's safety.then you are giving up the freedom to live where you want.
maybe you don't think freedom is an essential liberty.
Given that the U.S. is getting safer rather than more dangerous, I'm not too worried about that.
Well since every place in the US is getting safer, Why would anybody need to move as you and Peetzakilla suggest?

mavracer
March 22, 2009, 12:11 AM
Others have stated that it's a freedom issue. I can see the principle behind that answer. I'm not sure I'd risk my family for that principle but if others have different ideas, fine.
If you do choose to live in a less than ideal area, is there a threshold of some kind that would cause you to throw in the towel? You know, if crime is maybe a 6 (1-10) right now, would you leave if it were an 8? A 9? When does safety over whelm all other concerns?
I'll ask you what's on the other side of that coin.At what point would you put your family's freedom above their safety? Is there a point where you would be willing to fight for their freedom?Say when they come to put them in the nice safe camps?

Hirlau
March 22, 2009, 12:28 AM
+1 mavracer:)

Swampghost
March 22, 2009, 12:38 AM
I simply moved. Not too far, just better neighborhood.

Re4mer
March 22, 2009, 08:11 AM
I question the concept of more dangerous vs less dangerous in general when applied to neighborhoods.

My reasoning is simple, although one neighborhood may have less crime statistically speaking, relying on that for safety puts us all at tactical disadvantage since it causes us to leave our guard down.

For this reason many of these "safe" neighborhoods have caused people to not call the cops when they should have or even reject owning firearms to protect their home and family because they thought "that type of thing doesn't happen here."

scorpion_tyr
March 22, 2009, 09:27 AM
My reasoning is simple, although one neighborhood may have less crime statistically speaking, relying on that for safety puts us all at tactical disadvantage since it causes us to leave our guard down.

+1 to that!

When I lived in Louisiana I lived in an apartment complex that was in a "iffy" part of town. A few blocks down from that apartment complex was the part of town where cops don't go because they get shot at.

Inbetween us was a very nice neighborhood. Many people seemed to translate "nice" into "safe". I never had any problems living in that apartment complex because the BG's in that area, and the one BG's from the really bad part of town all went down the road to the "nice" neighborhood where they did all sorts of very bad things to innocent wealthy people.

David Armstrong
March 22, 2009, 12:16 PM
Anyway: you consider your stats and you make your plans, but you make your plans based on stats that don't really matter. You make your move to Smallville where it's super safe, quit wearing your gun and then Joe Nutso shoots up the church, or feed store or whatever and you're unarmed because you believe your stats and didn't realize you were in a lottery. This is why I say "We don't care what the crime rate is" because of the asymmetries in payouts.
If you choose to quiit wearing your gun and an extremely unusual event occurs, that is one issue. If you chose to live in a place where that type of event is a regular occurence, that is a totally different thing, IMO, and why the statistics and crime rates and such do matter, and matter quite a bit. And that is why caring about the crime rate matters.
So that's why I don't care about the stats in aggregate: because the analysis might not actually matter.
Then don't use them in aggregate, use them in a more finite bite that might actually matter.
David, does this seem more reasoned and reasonable?
Somewhat, although I still disagree with the basic premise that one should not care what the crime rate is. The crime rate is one factor of lifestyle, just like quality of schools, availability of health care, and so on. I think it is somethign tha one needs to be aware of and be concerned with. If someone else doesn't, that is fine, we can have different concerns.

JohnKSa
March 22, 2009, 12:20 PM
JohnKSa says don't move, make it a better place. Which, alright I guess, but is that something that we should be expected to do or is it something we can choose to try? I personally don't feel that I have a responsibility to live in a dangerous place while I try to make it better.My bigger point was that when "mobile" people choose to move out of a neighborhood that is starting to go downhill, the mobile persons help themselves, but at the cost of the persons who aren't "mobile" for one reason or another. It's often the elderly, but not exclusively.

You keep talking about making the place better, about not having a connection to a place, etc. What I'm trying to make clear is that it's NOT about places, it's about people.

Are we EXPECTED to try to help those who can't help themselves? Maybe not, but it's certainly commendable.

David Armstrong
March 22, 2009, 12:29 PM
look your the one that implied it was Illogical to value anything above your family's safety.
I believe what I said was "Perhaps you could explain what essential liberty is being given up if one logically decides to move for the safety of their family or themselves?? " I fail to see anywhere that I have implied that it was illogical to value anything above your familiy's safety.
I submit that if you would suggest moving (from where I assume you want to live) for your family's safety.then you are giving up the freedom to live where you want.
I submit that if you get to make the choice on where to live you are excericising a freedom, not that a freedom is being given up.
maybe you don't think freedom is an essential liberty.
Again, what essential freedom is being given up? You don't have to move, you choose to move for the greater safety (or whatever reason).
Well since every place in the US is getting safer, Why would anybody need to move as you and Peetzakilla suggest?
Don't think anyone has said that everyplace in the U.S. is getting safer. Try to respond to what is actually written insteads of making things up. The U.S. is not homogenous, there are areas with very differing rates of crime and differing rates of different types of crime. And I don't think anyone has said a thing about needing to move. The question (as I understand it) is why one would choose to not leave an area that is particularly dangerous to your family. It doesn't have to be crime, BTW, although that is sort of the focus of this discussion. Danger takes many forms.

Brian Pfleuger
March 22, 2009, 01:08 PM
I'll ask you what's on the other side of that coin.At what point would you put your family's freedom above their safety? Is there a point where you would be willing to fight for their freedom?Say when they come to put them in the nice safe camps?

I don't consider it to be an issue of freedom. I understand your point but I do not agree. It would seem to me that the most "freedom ensuring" thing you could do, based on your logic, is to move to a dangerous place on purpose. That way you'd be REALLY showing the bad guys that they can't take your freedom away.

As for what point I would put my families freedom above their safety, I don't know. No situation that I can foresee in America. If my family was above a level of risk that I found unacceptable I'd move. Money be damned, esoteric theories on freedom be damned. I mean, we're not talking about fighting a war here. We're talking about the lives of my children.

As for the quote from Benjamin Franklin about giving up liberty for safety. First off, we all do that every single day. Second, he's not a god, just because one of our founders said something doesn't make it indisputable fact.


You keep talking about making the place better, about not having a connection to a place, etc. What I'm trying to make clear is that it's NOT about places, it's about people.

Are we EXPECTED to try to help those who can't help themselves? Maybe not, but it's certainly commendable.

I agree. I'm all for helping people. However, at some point, especially when we're just trying to go about our daily lives, there must be a line that gets crossed. Some point where we say, "Alright this is too much for me, I'm leaving." There are missionaries who go into the most dangerous parts of the world on purpose and yet, when they come home, few of them chose to live in dangerous places on purpose.

We can live in a "safe" place and help those around us just as much, maybe more, than we can in a dangerous place where the threat of violence may curtail our activities.

Hirlau
March 22, 2009, 01:51 PM
When it come down to tactics; either you stay and fight for your property OR you flee to your next temporary home.
Life boils down to to two things:

Spears and Aprons !

Either you carry the spear of a Hunter or stay back at the village and bake the bread, Apron!

CHOOSE:
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk73/typhoonwinds/spear.jpg

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk73/typhoonwinds/bakeapron.jpg

10 Beers
March 22, 2009, 02:13 PM
Gun collector and survivalist are two different hobbies. You can do one or both. If you bought a gun because your area scares you then by all means pack it. If you carry it just 'cause you bought it maybe you should reconsider.

Hirlau
March 22, 2009, 02:28 PM
+1 10 Beers

mavracer
March 22, 2009, 02:37 PM
I fail to see anywhere that I have implied that it was illogical to value anything above your familiy's safety.
here is your statement I bold typed where you said it.
That is certainly your choice, and as you said, it doesn't have to be logical. Lots of people have died or been hurt over ego, pride, and other values, and if that is more important than the safety and well-being of your family, then there is nothing wrong with it for you.
And I don't think anyone has said a thing about needing to move. The question (as I understand it) is why one would choose to not leave an area that is particularly dangerous to your family.
choosing to leave would be moving.
If my family was above a level of risk that I found unacceptable I'd move. Money be damned, esoteric theories on freedom be damned. I mean, we're not talking about fighting a war here. We're talking about the lives of my children.
Which is the problem I have with your ideology. yes we are talking about a war, the war on crime, Good vs Evil and Evil is not defeated by fleeing from it.

chemgirlie
March 22, 2009, 03:51 PM
Well, for a while I'll still be finishing up my degree, so I have to stay within a fairly close radius of my university. I've never owned a car, and never really needed to, so I have to stay within the limits of public transportation. This limits me to slightly beyond the city limits. As soon as I am able to move I will (for more reasons then crime though).

David Armstrong
March 22, 2009, 07:14 PM
here is your statement I bold typed where you said it.
Umm, you don't get to cherrypick words from different sentences and concepts, then bold them to indicate that something was said that wasn't. "Logical" refers to your choices, "values" is part of reasons why people have been hurt, and "your familys safety" is yet a third element. Try to deal with what is said instead of making things up.
Which is the problem I have with your ideology. yes we are talking about a war, the war on crime, Good vs Evil and Evil is not defeated by fleeing from it.
Oh Good Grief and Yawn, all at the same time. We aren't talking about a war, we are talking about moving for your family's well-being, and/or why some choose not to do so. If you are concerned about fighting a war for Good against Evil, become a priest or a LEO. Deciding where to live doesn't rise to anything close to that level.

Stevie-Ray
March 22, 2009, 08:31 PM
I live in the Downriver suburbs of Detroit. Been here all my life. Didn't think it was bad when I was a kid; my parents never let on that it was a dangerous area. Got married and moved a little further down river, but there wasn't any houses to be had there. Apartment living was nice, but it's everybody's dream to own their own home, right? Bought a house a block away from where I grew up and right across the street from where my wife had lived. The wife was chronically ill by then, so it was nice that her folks were right across the street, for when I was at work, etc. It wasn't the greatest place to live, but it was convenient, and the job was good. And it was a job that you didn't just walk away from, to move to another state, etc., unless of course, you were being transferred. During layoffs from that job, there weren't jobs to be had, (early 80s) but we toughed it out, I found work and we saved our home. Seems like about the time we'd consider moving, something else would kick our legs out from underneath us. We'd taken our streets back a time or two, when things got a little dicey, I organized the neighborhood watch, and people still generally watch out for each other here. Now that I've been here near 30 years, I hate it. No, the neighborhood hasn't changed for the worse as of now, I just hate city life the older I get. Just as I'm thinking retirement, and ready to get to hell out of here, the economy goes in the crapper. Now retired, I CAN'T leave, at least not for a few years. Houses simply aren't selling here; there's such a glut of them on the market from people walking away from their mortgages.

Of course, when it comes to safety I bet many here would easily justify buying another gun or such, even while they say moving would be impossible.I can't figure this comment out. Uh......YEAH!?! Justifying $500 is not exactly the same as trying to sell your house or letting it go for a fraction of what it's worth.:rolleyes: Oh make no mistake, I'm still looking. I just have to be sure I'll be able to either sell my house, or be able to afford taxes on 2 places for several years.

mavracer
March 23, 2009, 07:40 AM
Umm, you don't get to cherrypick words from different sentences and concepts, then bold them to indicate that something was said that wasn't. "Logical" refers to your choices, "values" is part of reasons why people have been hurt, and "your familys safety" is yet a third element. Try to deal with what is said instead of making things up.
So now your trying to convince me that you don't mean anything.your not putting sentences together to form a concept.That the "choice" in which you are calling illogical is not staying in a more dangerous local not moving to greener pastures.That "other values" would not include staying in the place you already established as home.That anyone not trying to put their "family's safety" above all other values is not acting logical in your opinion.

gruntrus
March 23, 2009, 09:36 AM
"There's more to it than that. The bleeding hearts, labor unions, the global village types, declining moral values and politicians seeking tax revenue are also responsible to one degree or other. And my list probably not complete either. But to simply blame business for you living in a dangerous area is a bit simple."




I wasn't SIMPLY blaming business, as you put it.

David Armstrong
March 23, 2009, 11:03 AM
So now your trying to convince me that you don't mean anything.
I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I am pointing out that you are accusing me of saying something that I did not say, and that if one wishes to have an honest discussion they need to deal with what is actually said instead of making things up.
That the "choice" in which you are calling illogical is not staying in a more dangerous local not moving to greener pastures.
You are making things up again. I did not call any choice illogical. What I said was, "Perhaps you could explain what essential liberty is being given up if one logically decides to move for the safety of their family or themselves?? "

pax
March 23, 2009, 11:21 AM
This thread isn't on topic anymore.

Time to shut it down.

pax