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View Full Version : When they hear that pump they'll run?


Willie Lowman
March 17, 2009, 09:25 AM
Once upon a time, I was living in a large apartment with two roommates. At about 3am the front door is kicked open. I hear two loud voices saying
"Let's do this, dog!" "I got your back!" "Where's that (expletive) at?"

So, I turn on my light and grab up my 590. (Loaded with 00 buck, M9 bayonet attached) By this time the two unwanted guests had found roommate 1's room there is lots of yelling. I open the door to my room and pump the shotgun as hard as I could. (because when BGs hear that pump, they run. right?) One of my guests comes straight down the hall and gets right in front of the shotgun yelling "Shoot me!" I could see he was about my age, unarmed and very intoxicated. "Shoot me!" he insisted. I stare at him over the top of my 12 gauge for a few more seconds when roommate 2 opens the door to his room saying "I'm calling the cops". It is at that point that the other guest has a change of heart. Left alone with roommate 1 he no longer feels so tough and at the mention of the cops he says, "let's go, dog. I got a kid now, I can't go back to jail." ...And they stagger out.

Upon later consideration, I realized that 00 buck would shoot clear though the apartment. Furthermore the 590 with bayonet looks mean but it handles like a pike inside.

I learned later that roommate 1 had exchanged words with the two aforementioned gentlemen at the bar. They followed him home and waited till he went to bed so they could beat him up.

Brian Pfleuger
March 17, 2009, 09:40 AM
more on this to be found here:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307401

David Armstrong
March 17, 2009, 10:35 AM
(Loaded with 00 buck, M9 bayonet attached)
Why would you have a bayonet attached? Seems to only make an unwieldy weapon even more unwieldy.

Mike in VA
March 17, 2009, 12:10 PM
When they hear that pump they'll run?

Or start shooting. Never make a threat you aren't prepared to back up.

Stay safe.

ar15chase
March 17, 2009, 12:20 PM
I would have shot them. If somebody kicks in my door they are showing intent to harm me or my family. The last thign I would worry about would be trying to scare them, Im going to try and stop them. I understand your worries about the 00 buck going through walls. Instead of loading someting you are scared to shoot, keep it loaded with bird shot.

Whiteboy67
March 17, 2009, 12:51 PM
Do you think the lawyers could of argued about the two guys being drunk in any way that would ruin his "self defense" claim if he had shot them?

ar15chase
March 17, 2009, 12:56 PM
I dont know. But I dont think being drunk, is a excuse to kick in a persons door. They show intent to harm a person when they kick in a door in the middle of the night. What would you suggest a person do in that situation? Shake his fist at them?

Whiteboy67
March 17, 2009, 12:58 PM
Oh I would of probably shot them if he charged at me, but I know a lawyer would probably sit there and argue about it to try and get the family money from suing or something.
Lawyers :barf:

Brian Pfleuger
March 17, 2009, 12:59 PM
Do you think the lawyers could of argued about the two guys being drunk in any way that would ruin his "self defense" claim if he had shot them?

Drunkenness is irrelevant. The single largest factor would be whether or not that particular state has the Castle Doctrine or something similar. Obviously, there is no justification for shooting except for their actual unauthorized presence.

goodspeed(TPF)
March 17, 2009, 01:09 PM
Apparently he did "ASK" to be shot.

Hornett
March 17, 2009, 01:15 PM
Sounds like a guy to me that would have gotten the butt end of a 590 across the chops.
IMHO
YMMV
Be sure the safety is on :p

goodspeed(TPF)
March 17, 2009, 01:27 PM
Guns don't kill people, Jack Bauer kills people.

I just noticed this.

Awesome! :D

onthejon55
March 17, 2009, 01:50 PM
Personally I would keep one in the chamber. although racking a shell is intimidating, the sound may alert an otherwise harmless burglar that his life is in danger and he must now kill you in order to defend himself. Also theres always the chance that once he hears that he may hide somewhere in your home, which is a nightmare, or he may take some one else in the home hostage. If some one kicks in your door start shooting ASAP.

troy_mclure
March 17, 2009, 04:04 PM
i keep a pump, a semi auto, and a sxs, loaded with 1(or 2) in the chamber(s). there will be no give away of my location, or announcement that i am armed.

RamSlammer
March 17, 2009, 10:25 PM
i keep a pump, a semi auto, and a sxs, loaded with 1(or 2) in the chamber(s). there will be no give away of my location, or announcement that i am armed

+1 (in the chamber that is)
If a bad guy hears me rack the shotgun, it's because I just shot his buddy and am reloading.

Lolgasm
March 17, 2009, 11:53 PM
i keep my 870 with 4 in the mag and one on my bedside. got my .38 under the pillow next to the one that i use. im a heavy sleeper and if someone came in while i was asleep they could probably get my shotgun, but if they went to rack it, i would most likely wake up and try to pull the .38 before they knew i had it. BG's are not smart, usually, and if he was robbing me and just wanted to threaten me with my own gun thats probably what he would do until he could tie me up or one of us got shot in the process. do i have a problem with dying? yes i think i wouldnt want to die to another man, but if i was going to either way id rather it be in a good fight and not just tied up and shot, or shot execution style. getting a little off topic, but if i hear someone break in(i live in the basement) i can get the 870 and cock it myself and carry the 38 in my waistband, and if im asleep and i dont happen to hear someone breaking in, i will be awakened by the BG and could probably pull my 38 in enough time to get him. is a shotgun intimidating? to me it is, people are unstable and if i heard someone rack a round into the chamber, i dont know this person and i assume that he is now ready to take my life, and that isnt cool with me, especially when he knows his territory better then i do. looking it from a BG's point of view, id be scared. but i am not a street hardened criminal either

SquidWarrior
March 18, 2009, 10:30 AM
I am completely on board with the "deadly force is the last option" argument. I train others in it, and I believe in it. With that said, I would have fired. He is obviously prepared for a violent confrontation. No matter what the tough guys say, the first instinct when confronted with a situation like that is to freeze and assess. With an unwieldly weapon like that, there is not much hand to hand that can be reasonably employed. With an active(probably violent) resistor like that, you want to stop the threat as soon as possible. By the way, take that bayonette off your weapon, it makes the shotgun impractical and it would be effectively exploited by any prosecuter in the country. Im glad things turned out the way they did, but I hope you were mentaly prepared to put nine tiny pieces of lead into the perps chest cavity, had things turned out differantly.

hogdogs
March 18, 2009, 10:55 AM
onthejon, I have just recently stopped keeping my gun "FULL HOT" as 5 in the tube and one in the pipe. Due to discussions with some well versed and well trained in the shot gun section. I am now aware that most pump shotgun safety designs are to prevent trigger operated discharge... Nothing to prevent a discharge due to fall type impact. Since my gun rests against the head board or wall beside me I have a possibility of knocking it over "conducting many tasks" and if it fell over being bumped by the vacuum and blowing a hole in the wall I would have a mess to fix and that is if no one or no dogs were shot.... Mrs.hogdogs would feed me a dish I wasn't ready to eat!:barf:
Brent

Willie Lowman
March 18, 2009, 11:11 AM
Ok, now to answer some of the why did you didn't you questions.

The bayonet was there because it looked mean. (It stays in the safe now) the 00 buck was there because it is what the gun store commando's all use in their scatter guns. (The first half of the shells are birdshot now) I was 21 at the time. All I knew was what I heard in the gun/bait shop.

I didn't shoot the person asking to be shot because 1 he was not armed. 2 I was clearly not in any danger as long as he was at bayonet point and he was so drunk he could hardly stand. (If he had been sober he could have grabbed the bayonet/muzzle) Perhaps a butt stock to the face would have been appropriate but I had just woke up about 50 seconds earlier and was still thinking "what is going on here"

To everyone who says, "I would have shot them"... Well, when some drunk kids break into your house, give 'em two in the chest and one in the head. Let us know how 12 of your peers look on the use of deadly force on unarmed intruders. You may be a local hero, you may end up someone's shower toy.

If they had been carrying deadly weapons it would be a different story entirely.

That was my experience, I learned quite a bit that night. I hope it made you think a little deeper than "he should have shot them." My only regret was I didn't have any bean bag shells in my 590. Your mileage WILL vary.

cracked91
March 18, 2009, 11:38 AM
Im Kinda with Willie on this one, but I would have split their heads open with the gun. I don't think I would shoot someone unless I thought that they were an immiadiate threat to me or my family. Its easy to say you would, but when you have to make the choice whether to take someones life or not, there are alot of weighing factors. I have my .357 set up so the first two rounds are snake shot, and the last 4 are 125 gr JHP. I know I know, they say never shoot unless you intend to kill, but there are alot of mediums to weigh in, and I think I would rather be sued for maiming someones face, then lose sleep every night because I took someones life when there were clearly other alternatives.

SigfanTN
March 18, 2009, 07:48 PM
To everyone who says, "I would have shot them"... Well, when some drunk kids break into your house, give 'em two in the chest and one in the head. Let us know how 12 of your peers look on the use of deadly force on unarmed intruders. You may be a local hero, you may end up someone's shower toy.

If they had been carrying deadly weapons it would be a different story entirely.

Let me start by saying it is good you didn't have to shoot because, legal matters aside, who wants to have to deal with that? The emotional toll would be something I'm sure all of us would like to avoid. No one here should second guess your decisions or try to argue that you were wrong since it worked out for you and everyone left alive.

That said, I'm not sure if Ohio is a Castle Law state or not, but TN is. If someone breaks into my house in any scenario remotely similar to what you posted, I am shooting. They have violated the sanctity and safety of my home, and for anyone to break into my home purposely with its occupants home, I am forced to assume they mean us harm, unarmed or not. Since there are already firearms in the house along with kitchen knives, golf clubs, etc, I cannot afford to give these malcontents any leeway as to their intentions.

Even without firearms in the house (yes there was a time I didn't have access to any), I would have beat an intruder or butchered them if they refused to leave when I confronted them. I feel bad for folks in states that will not allow a person to be safe from prosecution for defending their home. :barf: There is no reason for us to give criminals any reason to think that this is okay or they might come out of it unscathed. :mad:

#18indycolts
March 18, 2009, 07:56 PM
I keep my Rem. 870 locked and loaded with Fed. Tactical 00Buck. Since there is no "pump", I just hope they run when its pointed at them.

Clevinger
March 18, 2009, 08:01 PM
Is shooting him in the legs an option?

I think you were well within your rights to shoot him, given that he kicked in your door. Him being intoxicated is irrelevant.

JustDreadful
March 18, 2009, 08:23 PM
Sounds like a guy to me that would have gotten the butt end of a 590 across the chops.


This.

snevensmores
March 18, 2009, 08:29 PM
My state, Illinois, does have a king of the castle doctrine. I would have racked the slide (I keep mine unchambered -- I want one more incentive for him to run) and trained the shotgun on him and told him to get the hell on the floor. If he runs, I don't give chase, and I become the best witness that I can. If he complies, he can leave in handcuffs after the police arrive.

But if he charges me (even if he appears to be unarmed), I have no idea if he's about to pull a gun or a knife. I don't care if he's unarmed -- I'm not letting him get close enough to have a chance to kill me with my own gun. I'd back up and create distance as best I could, but if I'm cornered, it's over for that low-life. He would have never gotten close enough to my muzzle to demand face-to-face that I "shoot him."

The lawyers and DA could figure it out later.

snevensmores
March 18, 2009, 08:32 PM
Is shooting him in the legs an option?

Shoot to stop the threat. Hands/CNS are what operate a possible concealed gun.

Plus, you might just **** him off :D Next time you'd see him is when he rolls his wheelchair into court for the civil suit.

ElectricHellfire
March 18, 2009, 08:45 PM
You could be naked as a Jay Bird, but if you kick in my front door I'd blow your guts out and worry about it later. Kicking in my door, day or night, threatens me and gives me the right to kill you. Zero warning.

MothersLilHelper
March 18, 2009, 09:41 PM
Not to chap anyone's tender bits, but what's with this forum? In the tactics realm, arming a possible future legal foe with goodies like the following isn't smart:

notably and quotably (with my emphasis in bold):
I would have beat an intruder or butcheredthem if they refused to leave when I confronted them.

and
You could be naked as a Jay Bird, but if you kick in my front door I'd blow your guts out and worry about it later. Kicking in my door, day or night, threatens me and gives me the right to kill you. Zero warning.

So, hopefully keeping my criticism on-topic: tossing this stuff out on the web seems to me bad tactics for post-incident life should you be unlucky enough to have an incident. Also, when you're practicing your mental scenarios with mall ninja mental imagery, aren't you making your training less effective? What's the purpose? There is no 'right to kill you if you kick in my front door.' (I checked. :) ) It might be a really good idea at the time...or it might be the guy who's trying to break into your house to tell you the kitchen's on fire.

I'm new around here, so maybe this is just me learning the culture. If so, I'm sorry I wet the rug. :)

pax
March 18, 2009, 09:50 PM
MLH ~

Right on.

Closed.

pax