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wyobohunter
March 17, 2009, 12:35 AM
All of the "tactical" crap? Seriously though, I can't be too harsh because I once pondered the best way to strap a light to my Mossberg 500, I also had a pistol grip and heat shield for it. Luckily I came to my senses and learned that practice at clays will make me a much better shotgunner than any silly crap hanging from the scattergun.

BillCA
March 17, 2009, 01:11 AM
I R an operator cuz I have taticool gear! :rolleyes:

Besides the mall-ninja mentality, there are certain accessories that are okay on a defensive shotgun. But these don't apply to shotguns set up for sport/target shooting.

Side saddle shell holder. You'd think 5-8 rounds would be enough right? Me too. But if I run out and have to reload, that reload is to cover my move to get a magazine fed rifle.
Light mount. Light is good. It helps you ID your target in the dark. And both hands stay on the gun to control recoil. But the light does not need to peel paint at 6m either.
Fiber-optic front sight - lots of help for older eyes.


I've seen shotguns with picatinny rails and crap all over them. It just gets in the way. Folding stocks are a bother and painful to shoot most of the time. Unless you have a real need to fit it in cramped spots, let the cops get the bruises.

TxGun
March 17, 2009, 01:19 AM
IMO, most of the fascination stems from either 1) kids who grew up with video games and view their guns as toys, or 2) military wannabes who outfit their firearms the way they think real ops guys would. If you can handle your firearm, 90% of the tactical stuff is redundant. Just MO.

mellow_c
March 17, 2009, 01:42 AM
Gear can help your Tactics... and can change them as well, But the idea that gear IS tactical doesnt seam right to me....

Anyway, If your going to add something to your gun, you have a million options. You can do things to make it more "beautiful" Like engravings and nice wood work. You can do things to make it more comfortable or shootable, like different grips or softer recoil pads...

Then there are things you can add to your gun to help you in a "tactical"/ real life confrontation. Such as Flashlights, sometimes lasers, Different optics, and even custom gun work. It's up to you to decide how much custom work you want to do to your gun, and then you have to be smart about how much "gear" you add to your gun.

Every ounce is felt, and a heavy weapon can slow you down. Sometimes a Pistol with a flashlight mounted can be enough. Or even just a set of night sights.

But if you add on a (Heat shield, Forward vertical grip, laser, flashlight, optics, controls for all of them, even those magazine clips that hold two mags together, or extra shells on the stock of your shotgun.... All that stuff adds up, and for any real life, or HD situation... you'll find alot of gear not suitable for your tactics.



http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tactical

jlayman920
March 17, 2009, 02:43 AM
I agree with your post for the most part but until you become proficient at shooting those clays in the dark, I wouldn't consider a light "silly crap".

MikeinLA
March 17, 2009, 04:39 AM
I agree with all the tactical stuff, but I do prefer black stocks. I've played too much Halo. As for flashlights, I have lights in my house. The only time I plan to shoot in the dark is....actually there is NO time that I plan to shoot in the dark.

Mike

freakintoguns
March 17, 2009, 04:53 AM
i used tio be into that mall ninja crap, even boughtra pistol grip for my shotgun. those hurt liek hell tho. they even start to hurt after a few boxes on lowbrass lgiht stuff(you knwo the bif boxes from wally world) i put my buttstock back on and have been much happier. although i am with mike,i have a love for black guns. and i prefer synthetic over wood.

Ruthless4christ
March 17, 2009, 05:27 AM
I agree that the word tactical kinda irks me, and i for one HATE synthetic stocks, all wood for me! However depending on what the gun is designated for tactical accesories can make all the differance in the world.
My 2c

RoscoeC
March 17, 2009, 06:28 AM
NO time that I plan to shoot in the dark.

And you are certain that an armed confrontation is going to go according to your plan???

Ever heard of Hurricanes, Tornadoes, Earthquakes, Floods? Electrical power does fail, and when it does folks like to loot and do other evil.

We all have to formulate and follow our own plans, but mine include several tactical flashlights...one of those mounted on my shotgun.

Of course, if you have a good flashlight you WONT ever be shooting in the dark.

colostomyclown
March 17, 2009, 09:26 AM
This is why I've been a little excessively rude and short in some threads. Like the first above poster said, one of the reasons could be kids who grew up with video games and view their guns as toys. THAT'S DANGEROUS, and they have no business even operating a firearm, let alone owning one until they're in the right frame of mind to do so. I don't like being a jerk on the internet but some people just have the potential to ruin it for everyone else.


And tactical rails on a shotgun are hilarious. I agree with shell holder and light as the only really viable mods to a shotgun, other than steps to make action sturdier/smoother or the porting of barrels. As for people getting upset using the term "shottie", I hope I can speak for others when people taking a carefree approach towards a weapon that will BLOW YOUR ENTIRE HEAD OFF quite easily is pretty alarming and irritating. It is a shotgun, and it's DEADLY! Not a toy!

rantingredneck
March 17, 2009, 09:35 AM
And tactical rails on a shotgun are hilarious

It depends.................

I like lights that are easy to mount/dismount. Mainly because my HD guns are also my deer hunting guns, and the Wildlife Officers frown on Surefires on your slug gun :D.

I agree that the receiver rails and especially the forend rail thingy's are ridiculous, but a good low profile rail section on the mag tube can be an easy on/off light solution.

http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo306/rantingredneck/DSC00993.jpg

All three of those guns have taken deer/doves. I just drop the light and head to the woods with buckshot or slugs for deer. I switch to different barrels and drop the mag extension/insert plug for the dove field and have a couple of other dedicated bird guns. I'm also starting to appreciate wood stocks, though I tend to hunt heavy brush that puts some wear on guns. The wood stocks on the 870 and 500 are new and haven't been abused yet. The synthetics on the 11-87 are gone now too and replaced with new wood. Come November I'm gonna be putting some character marks on some wood stocks I believe :D.

flippycat
March 17, 2009, 10:46 AM
I don't like being a jerk on the internet but some people just have the potential to ruin it for everyone else.
Thread after Thread of angry posts in regards to anything but a "stock" shotgun ...I think you wait with fingers on the keys ready to rip someone apart or post the "youareanidiot" link.

As for people getting upset using the term "shottie", I hope I can speak for others when people taking a carefree approach towards a weapon that will BLOW YOUR ENTIRE HEAD OFF quite easily is pretty alarming and irritating. It is a shotgun, and it's DEADLY! Not a toy!

How does using a slang term remotely have anything to do with being carefree or being an irresponsible firearm owner? I think you are relating anyone using these terms with the thugs you see on tv or youtube.

I have been known to use the term "go go juice" in regards to gas for my car...does that mean I should not be driving because I do not use the term petroleum?

It has been discussed to death that it is a courtesy to this forum to use the appropriate terminology in regards to talk of a firearm to be considered seriously and to show respect to the other knowledgeable forum members. There is no reason to get so angry over it though that is becomes a life mission to obliterate anyone who uses the term or thinks in a different light then you.


wyobohunter and to stay on topic...

I think the fascination is more of the bells and whistles mentality. They (the "tactical" crap ) are marketed very well. Maybe giving the owner of the tactical gear the sense of security hoping that whatever bad guy they face may think they have some form of formal training in regards to all these bolt on's.

Can be compared to the import craze of 5 years ago, thousands of honda/eclipse owners running out to buy n20/vtec/tein stickers and using the term nawwwz hoping they could fake they way in a race with sticker intimidation.

I think the same can be said for rails on every orifice. Bolt on intimidation even if it is not practical in any sense but the scenario envisioned by the buyer which prompted him/her to get them. Which is successfully marketed by the manufacturer to expand their gains.If it is used by the pros it has got to be good.:cool:

Evyl Robot
March 17, 2009, 12:27 PM
I agree with Ruthless4Christ. My shotgun wears wood furniture. The barrel is 20.5-inches with a tritium front bead on the barrel rib. It's extremely fast and easy to aim in very low light conditions. I extended the magazine by two shells and put together a leather stock saddle that holds sixteen extras. The extra weight on the buttstock actually balances the weapon nicely, and I find it to be a help rather than a hindrance. I've got pics in my blog (http://evylrobot.com/). Your mileage may vary.

lipadj46
March 17, 2009, 01:04 PM
This is why I've been a little excessively rude and short in some threads.

Weren't you the guy going on about "Tossbergs" your first post in this forum? No need for excuses that's your thing, whatever floats your boat.

I don't like being a jerk on the internet.

I'm not so sure I believe you. Didn't you post this yesterday:

i believe they sell those tacticool stocks here

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/youare


mature...

As for people getting upset using the term "shottie", I hope I can speak for others when people taking a carefree approach towards a weapon that will BLOW YOUR ENTIRE HEAD OFF quite easily is pretty alarming and irritating.

Yeah we've notice people don't like the term. Personally I don't either but I am not going to berate or talk down to a guy for using a nickname or slang either.

Back on topic...

I guess my view on "tactical" shotgun accessories is that some are useful. A scope (both regular and red dot) on a deer gun is pretty standard these days and rail can only make mounting it easier and allow for more adjustments. A pistol grip is useful on a turkey gun when you need to operate a decoy or call in one hand and be prepared for a shot with the other. Most agree a light is mandatory for an HD shotgun and a good camo job on a purpose built turkey gun is convenient.

I agree "accessorizing" can go too far but who are you to judge? Also there are better ways to let people know that calling a shotgun by a slang term is disrespectful than by deriding them as stupid or immature. I would rather a forum be a cooperative atmosphere than a decisive one and this forum has tilted toward the latter in the past few weeks.

And In case you missed it the OP called a shotgun a scattergun so make sure to remind him he is an idiot.

T. O'Heir
March 17, 2009, 01:09 PM
TV and Movies. Most of it is a way of separating your from your money.

Snowmanx7
March 17, 2009, 03:01 PM
I'm going to weigh in here on the gun=toy deal. I agree with all the tacticool crap. I'm def a steel and wood kinda guy. I have no problem with other people dressing up their guns with junk. Have at it. My deal with the toy thing is: Hell yes my guns are toys. I have a few rifles/shotties and handguns that serve a specific purpose, whether it be hunting or self defense, but the majority of my guns are definitely just toys. Does that make me unsafe? Do I go around waving my G-lock fo-tay around shooting in the air? Nope. (don't own a Glock) I practice safe weapons handling and do my best to teach my daughter and anyone else the same. I think that most people on here are gun nuts and enjoy collecting, shooting, maintaining their guns. So blanket statements like that are ridiculous and only deter newcomers to our hobby. If nobody owned any "toy" guns, then we'd all only have a couple of specific purpose pieces.

freakintoguns
March 17, 2009, 03:16 PM
anything beyond a shotgun and handgun for self defense and a hunting rifle is a toy (barring those used by Law enforcement and military) IMO. just like Ferraris Lamboghinis, Aston Martins, ATVs, Sandrails, etc. sure, they cost a helluva lot of money, and yes guns can most definitly kill someone, they are still toys tho. Big Boys play with Big Toys. the reaosn ADULTS get to play with those toys is because we've (hopefully) learned to be responsible with said toys.

jammin1237
March 17, 2009, 04:32 PM
if i ran into the big wild with just one weapon it would probably be the shot gun...slugs, shot, whatever is needed to "take care of the survival situation"... very dependable with a wide variety of loads you can shoot... if you live in a heavily populated area things change... i try to steer away from anything that says "tactical", most of it is BS... if you do live in the cities, things i look for are more ammo capacity, short range attitude, super bright tac light, and short stock... IMO you have to have the light, you have to be able to see and blind the the bad dude, you miss in "the jungle" its ok.. you miss in the city its a diferent story, it matters where you shoot(collateral damage)...once you encounter any animal jacked up on drugs you will find out that max fire power matters...

hope that helps

cheers!

Bauer
March 17, 2009, 04:43 PM
Nothing wrong with a light on a SH0TTY. Nor is there anything wrong with a pistol grip on a NOOB CANNON (personally I prefer a pistol grip with a standard stock). As a matter of fact, there is nothing wrong with adding anything to any of your firearms as long as it is helpful to you. Hell, who am I to say there is something wrong with anything anyone does to their firearm whether it's useful or not?

scorpion_tyr
March 17, 2009, 06:03 PM
I too can't see the point in having massive amounts of tacticool crap on a HD shotgun. This is as "tacticool" as I was willing to go with mine:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=44116&stc=1&d=1237330686

It's an old Remington 870 Express Super Magnum. I swapped out the old and broken wooden stock and forend for the Shurshot synthetics. I threw on a 7-shot extension, a set of 3-dot fiber optic sights, an elastic shell holder, and I painted it "tacticool" black. She might not be real pretty, but she gets the job done :D

wyobohunter
March 17, 2009, 10:13 PM
I never said bolting anything to any weapon is wrong. All but one of my rifles have scopes. I wouldn't personally put a light on any gun because IMO it would give away my exact position long before it would light up the BG. I could however see one practical purpose-positive target i.d. just before pulling the trigger.
To each his own, I was just surprised to see so many posts about tactical stuff... Somebody has to keep these people in business, support the economy, buy more gizmos.

Oh, and my guns are toys, so is my motorcycle, snowmachine, skis, mountain bike etc. They are just toys I have to be careful with or somebody may get hurt.
I don't use the word "Shotty" because it sounds like a city term to me.
I do like the word "Scattergun" because it sounds like a Western term to me.
Call it what you want, I'll get the picture.

#18indycolts
March 18, 2009, 07:46 AM
it goes back to letting people do what they want with THEIR property. Who cares what they do? Too many people want to dog others for doing things against the mainstream or otherwise what you don't do. Get over it.

Baba Louie
March 18, 2009, 05:48 PM
Kinda like fishing lures not being designed to catch fish so much as designed to catch fishermen, tactical black stuff catches tacticool people w/ money to spend.

I'll tend to tell people to avoid some things, like bandolier slings w/ 20 extra shells... but only if they ask me for advice (like it's going to change their mind or something).

I watched an old retired Marine Sgt shoot a Citori O/U for effect, shooting and reloading pretty briskly... that old boy was lethal as all getout w/ his birdgun.

So naturally, I had to get one. Somehow, mine didn't work quite as quickly. :rolleyes:

Imagine that...

Kmar40
March 18, 2009, 08:21 PM
Besides the mall-ninja mentality, there are certain accessories that are okay on a defensive shotgun. But these don't apply to shotguns set up for sport/target shooting.
Side saddle shell holder. You'd think 5-8 rounds would be enough right? Me too. But if I run out and have to reload, that reload is to cover my move to get a magazine fed rifle.
Light mount. Light is good. It helps you ID your target in the dark. And both hands stay on the gun to control recoil. But the light does not need to peel paint at 6m either.
Fiber-optic front sight - lots of help for older eyes. Funny that's exactly how one of my Mossbergs (I don't toss it) is set up. My second non-tossable Mossberg has only a light and a buttcuff. My future shotguns won't have a side saddle. I don't like the way it affects the balance and don't think I'll ever need more than 6. If I do, I don't mind taking the chance on the extra split second to reload from the buttcuff.

inSight-NEO
March 20, 2009, 01:27 AM
I wouldn't personally put a light on any gun because IMO it would give away my exact position long before it would light up the BG.

Its kinda funny how some will speak of the negative aspects of weapon mounted lights (ever hear of remote switches?) and other various tactical "gizmos" or "silly crap" and yet they will talk about "position," which as I see it, is a word pertaining to "tactics." Go figure.....

Honestly, just because an accessory such as a weapon mounted light is available, it doesnt mean you are to use it haphazardly. The effectiveness of any accessory, or weapon for that matter, depends entirely upon the user. Such accessories are meant to be there for you when you need it and nothing more. Better to have it and not need it than to not have it when you really need it.

Anyway, this whole "tactical" flaming crud is quite narrow minded, in my opinion, and is growing quite tiresome. After all, not everyone buys a shotgun simply for shooting skeet or slaying otherwise defenseless animals. I cant speak for heat shields (although I have one, but only because it came factory equipped), but lights have a very practical application that has absolutely nothing to do with "tacticool ninjitsu" crap. I dont care how good you are with a shotgun or any other weapon for that matter; if you cant see what you are shooting at (not all bad things happen during the light of day), you have no business firing a weapon...period. Try shooting game or skeet at night without any illumination and tell me how it turns out.

In terms of full stocks equipped with a pistol grip, this is for control plain and simple. If I need to explain this one, I guess its time to become familiar with current ideals outside of the sporting and hunting arena. Mag extensions also should need no explanation; nor should night sights (other than to say, if no lights are present, its not a bad thing to at least know which direction the muzzle is pointing); nor should sidesaddles (assuming these are used within reason). In terms of sidesaddle "balance," who here is really going to notice this when their adrenaline is pumping at high rates during an HD encounter? Doesnt matter; I myself chose to lose the sidesaddle as I simply decided I didnt need it. But, I certainly am not going to slam anyone who decides that it works for them.

Most of this "tactical" stuff is derived from items/accessories used by LE and the military, for various purposes. Why is it considered such a ridiculous notion that civilians may want to use such items on their weapons, particularly for HD? If I add something to my shotgun, or any weapon, which may or will take the advantage away from the BG and put it in my hands, I consider it important and not merely some "mall ninja" accessory. Also, please dont kid yourself in thinking that just because some of us have this "tactical crap," as you call it, strapped/mounted to our weapons, we dont know how to effectively use a shotgun. This stuff isnt for show and it isnt a crutch; its for extending the capabilities of the weapon, plain and simple.

Im inclined to think that all who oppose this "tactical" stuff do so simply because it is an area they are unfamiliar with. It may even be due to the fact that so many are adverse to the term "tactical" and the various Rambo images this word invokes. Who knows.. Heck, I could go on and on as to why I think hunting, for instance, is a meaningless, testosterone-laden endeavor. But, I dont because its a world Im not familiar/associated with and frankly, I believe in the "each to his/her own" philosophy.

Regardless, many (not all) "tactical" accessories indeed have a purpose and frankly, I believe if your life was on the line you would find that many of these "worthless" accessories just might prove quite useful, particularly during the dark hours of night.

Nnobby45
March 20, 2009, 02:12 AM
All of the "tactical" crap? Seriously though, I can't be too harsh because I once pondered the best way to strap a light to my Mossberg 500, I also had a pistol grip and heat shield for it. Luckily I came to my senses and learned that practice at clays will make me a much better shotgunner than any silly crap hanging from the scattergun.

I'm trying not to take that as an arrogant admonishion of those who have certains extras on their gun for a good reason.

Crap as in SureFire so I can ID my target and not shoot an innocent person?

Crap as in a 2 rd. extension to help the shotgun's limited capacity?

A sling so I can carry it, or sidesaddle so I have spare ammo and can grab my gun and go?

Yes, the extras aren't always necessary for a simple fighting tool, but making it a little more versatile isn't a bad idea, either. As long as you understand what they're for and know how to apply them.

And yes, learning how to actually shot it is a pretty good idea, also.:cool:

Scattergun Bob
March 20, 2009, 10:13 AM
Thanks for chiming in! I have decided not to defend this "straw man". The question has been asked many times before and answered. You did a great summary.

My best Bob

Vanya
March 20, 2009, 12:12 PM
Kinda like fishing lures not being designed to catch fish so much as designed to catch fishermen, tactical black stuff catches tacticool people w/ money to spend.

Oh, yeah... and I am a sucker for those fishing lures... :o

But as long as adding accessories doesn't have a bad effect on the gun's functioning (by, oh, changing how it balances, or whatever), so what? If most people add this stuff just because they like the way it looks, it's just a matter of taste. If people's tastes weren't different -- oh, boring.

The aesthetics of the accessory... :eek::eek:

chucksolo69
March 20, 2009, 01:11 PM
"or slaying otherwise defenseless animals" (what about domestic cows, sheep, hogs, etc. They have to be "slain" too.)

I have a problem with this. You make hunters sound like blood thirsty miscreants.

Anyway, back to the topic. My take on this is if you want a shotgun for strictly HD then, yes a short barreled pistol grip shot gun is the ticket so you can manuever it in tight situations, however, I have noticed that many of the 20-30 crowd buy these things simply because they look "cool" having grown up with "Halo", "Call of Duty", etc. How do I know this, my nephew is one of these (28 years old) and has a group of friends who think exactly like that. They mocked me when I bought a Winchester Model 1400 instead of a "tactical" shotgun. I explained to them that with this gun, I could use it for both upland birds and HD. I explained to them that their "tactical" guns would have to be modified (magazine plug) to hunt birds so they would probably be better off having 2 shotguns instead of trying to modify one gun for both uses, HD and hunting. They mocked me on the hunting too. To which I replied, so, "You are going to go to the range and shoot this thing maybe once every 5 years right?" To which they had no reply. Basically this group of young men would buy a "tactical" gun not to use, but simply to be "cool." Sad really. This is the same mentality tha has the younger generation thinking the .45 1911 pistol is too antiquated for modern use (they have told me this too)!!! They of course all own a Glock in 9MM. Ah, the naivete of youth.

Super-Dave
March 20, 2009, 02:02 PM
I guarantee you I can put twice as many 9mm rounds on target with my glock than you can with your .45 acp 1911. in the same ammount of time.

Lets both take our pistols and drop them fully loaded into a bucket of mud before the competition even begins.

Want to take that bet? We can video tape the entire event.

hogdogs
March 20, 2009, 02:23 PM
super dave... I will not only take your bet but i will borrow the .45 acp! One I have never fired! The mud part is out as only an idiot intentionally does a mud bath on their gun! I will, however, put my rounds on target with only one mag full previous to acclimate to the sights... I will not even try to beat your time but I assure you that half my time is un-attainable by most except the pro shooter... Remember you said HALF THE TIME... That is a stretch! I am no pro but I do not see much recoil in a .45 from a 1911...
I had both a P-85 ruger and a 1911 at the same time and I fired both at the same speed give or take. I even rapid fired both at the same time at the same speed at the same target and all rounds were on paper!
So how much was this bet?
Brent

chucksolo69
March 20, 2009, 03:03 PM
Me thinks Super Dave is in that 20-30 age catagory who worship at the Glock alter and have probably never shot anything else. You really think that a Glock is superior to a 1911. I will buy that a Glock may be the equal in functionality to a 1911, but, superior, Nah, I don't think so. Also, being the "plastic" variety, I reall don't think your "plastic", hammerless gun would withstand combat usage like the 1911 did in say, the battle for Iwo Jima. I think we're getting off topic though. BTW - you would need to put twice as many anemic 9mm rounds into a target in order to stop it/them than you would a .45, so you 're right in that respect.

hogdogs
March 20, 2009, 04:07 PM
Chuck, I am in no way saying a PGO shotgun is useless but more maneuverable? Not unless your halls are under 2 feet wide... I am walkin' talkin' proof as are my guns that a full stock is plenty fine...
I have had regular, pistol full and pgo rear stocks... I get around as well with a full stock as a PGO and the AR type limit my range of motion. The PGO in personal training is far too easy to end up pointed under your own chin. It is easily removed by a thug and doesn't work worth a hoot as a blunt force club if needed!
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b81/caughthog/P1010020.jpg
No way you can beat the short barreled full stock equipped shotgun for Home Defense!
Brent

Super-Dave
March 20, 2009, 04:15 PM
Its on hogdogs and anyone else here who wants to prove how high and mighty the .45 acp 1911 is.

I will use a standard factory glock not a competition model.

You will use a standard .45acp standard GI 1911.

Rules are simple 25yards 12" circle target.

7 rounds for you, 14 rounds for me. timed match.

We have to use standard power fmj ammo. 230 grain for you and 115 or 125 grain for me.

We will drop both loaded guns into the same bucket full of very wet mud for no less than 15 miniutes. We will then only shake of the mud with no more than 3 arm swings.


We will video tape the entire event.

You can go first or last if you want. However long it takes you to finish your 7 rounds, I will put twice as many 9mm rounds on target as you do.

I am not trying to say they I am a better shooter. I am sure hogdogs and everyone else here is a better shooter than myself. I am just an average joe. I am however saying that a 9mm can put twice as many rounds on target as 1911 in the same time.

Just because the mall ninjas and halo players think a certain weapon is cool does not mean this weapon might not be a good weapon.

I really didnt have much to input in this thread but once you people started to criticize the Glock, It was one.

hogdogs
March 20, 2009, 04:25 PM
Okay, you bested me in the distance part... Lets try...
7 yards is far more viable as a defense distance.
torso size target with COM block
SORRY BUD but no mud! I know the Colt 1911 is plenty durable but as I said only idiots soak guns in mud...
Clean gun.. soak yours in roofin' tar if you want...
I will also go 11 rounds... if you are soaking yours in mud.
You have no idea what some of us are capable of.
If you want we can bring this back to shot guns...
From a distance 25 yards to start, I use my pump gun and you use your 9mm, From the time we start we make forward progress to the point that when I run 6 rounds and you run 12 we finish with in 25 feet of the paper... I use slugs you use what you want...
I am just an old man with grey hair so it oughta be easy for you!
Brent

Super-Dave
March 20, 2009, 04:34 PM
If the 1911 is so wonderful why are people afraid to do the mud test?

I will even clean the gun for you after we are done.

I am not concerned in the least about dropping the Glock in the mud.



I am absolutely certain hogdogs is a better shooter than myself, I just know what the Glock can and cannot do.

I am also absolutely certain hogdogs can easily out shot me with a shotgun.

hogdogs
March 20, 2009, 04:44 PM
Let me explain... Mud is wet dirt... dirt is abrasive to anything other than a diamond... still with me camera guy? Dirt of unknown size is going to vary from 1,500 grit or finer to coarser than 40 grit... Folks spend their time avoiding grit in their gun to increase life span. Factories can do the mud test and I am happy knowing the gun I buy never suffered this abuse....
Lemme put it in terms you will understand...
We all know a human can function with mud packed in yer butt crack but would you like to run a full marathon this way?
Brent

flippycat
March 20, 2009, 04:44 PM
I do not understand the mud. Is this to simulate rambo jungle tactics when picking off charlie?

Does speed and distance really have to do with the model of gun or is it not really more about the shooters capability with the gun.

hogdogs
March 20, 2009, 04:45 PM
Lemme also add that to cover 50 feet in the time I shoot 6 slugs at COM is a full sprint... give or take your leg length...:D
Brent

hogdogs
March 20, 2009, 04:48 PM
I do not understand the mud. Is this to simulate rambo jungle tactics when picking off charlie?
ZACKRY!!!;)

Does speed and distance really have to do with the model of gun or is it not really more about the shooters capability with the gun.
flippy wins the prize... No go make yerself a double dip cone in your choice of flavor!
I love it when a plan comes together!:D
Brent

chucksolo69
March 20, 2009, 04:55 PM
Ok, I have over 30 years of shooting the 1911. I bought my first one in 1977. I have a little over a year of shooting a Glock. My nephew has one in .40 S&W. This is getting a little ridiculous what with all the posturing about dropping your gun in mud, timed shooting and the like. In a timed shoot, the 9mm will win in the hands of a non-expert because of the low recoil and faster recovery time. Both of these guns have their place. Just becaue every LEO carries one doesn't make it a superior weapon. The Glock, to my knowledge is a great LE gun, but, I would not want one for heavy duty use like some did in WWII or even Vietnam. To be honest with you though, I prefer my CZ 75B to both since the CZ has the option of being carried as a DA auto with the hammer down on a live round or "cocked and locked." IMHO, the CZ is superior to both those guns.

hogdogs
March 20, 2009, 05:03 PM
Not to mention the silliness about 2 different pistols is going on in the shotgun section:rolleyes:

BigJimP
March 20, 2009, 05:25 PM
1911's come chambered in 9mm too guys....(from Colt, Springfield, Baer, Wilson Combat, etc ). In fact I have 1911's from Wilson Combat chambered in 9mm, .40S&W and .45acp.

If you guys check out Patrick Sweeney's Gun Digest books on the 1911's - he tested a number of different 1911's ( and put them in a mud bath ) - and as I recall ( although my copies of volumes 1 and 2 are at home, most of them performed just fine.

There is no way a Glock, or any other handgun, is twice as fast with 16 rounds on target as a 1911 with 8 rounds of 9mm or .45acp / in the hands of a decent shooter. I'm not about to subject any of my handguns to a bucket of mud / not even if they're made of tuppeware (burp !)....but if speed on target, and the caliber is the issue in a light vs a heavy gun - what you're really arguing about is how long it takes the gun to come back on target between shots ( and there is no way a 9mm is on target in less than half the time of a .45acp ).

But what the heck does this have to do with tactical shotguns on this thread ....

mskdgunman
March 20, 2009, 05:44 PM
I've got "work" firearms and "play" firearms. My work guns tend to just have lights, slings and, in the case of a rifle, optics. My play guns are the ones I experiment with and hang things on to determine if the item in question may be useful or just gets in the way.

The Benelli is a work gun. All it's got is a sidesaddle, single point sling, pistol grip full stock, extended bolt handle and a TLR-1 light

The SBS 870 is more of a toy as you can tell...still fun though:D

flippycat
March 20, 2009, 05:48 PM
I will aid to get it back on track also, my fascination is more of a supplement to work,touch and bond with my shotguns when not taking them to the range.

Build it one way, experiment with it at the range, take it apart build it a different way. Getting to know its limitations and my limitations.

To me the fascination is being able to justify taking my guns out of their homes to be worked on at the kitchen table while watching some old McGyver and Walker Texas Ranger Episodes.

Is it a waste of money? Naww not really when I find something that works for me. And if it becomes part of my surplus of parts it maybe adapated to a new purchase to set it up a different way.

One thing I like about shotguns, especially mossbergs is there really is a ton of after market options I can buy and mess around with. To me it gives me a hobby I can enjoy when not going to the range and giving me first hand experience in trying something new.

I grew up hunting with bone stock shotguns and rifles. 15 years of shooting the same wood stock/forearm or body. To me it is about some variation or some gun STRANGE if you will to satisfy the itch. :)

Brian Pfleuger
March 20, 2009, 06:03 PM
Hogdogs,

That's funny right there, with the gun in "Homers" mouth. :D

hogdogs
March 20, 2009, 06:15 PM
While my homer dern simpson slippers are real comfy on a cold night, they are well suited for bedside holster... I was about to put a folded hand towel down to avoid scratches and "DOH!!!" it hit me...
I really like it for the unintended humor! It is but a .22 so it isn't for things that go bump in the dark in the home but if my dog yard goes to yappin I can try to find the cause or just rapid fire 3 in the dirt and the whole neighborhood sleeps better!:D
Brent

hogdogs
March 20, 2009, 06:19 PM
Super dave... I forgot to mention... no matter what I shoot you will be one handed. If i am using a 1911 in .45acp i will also be one hand shooting...
Brent

Super-Dave
March 20, 2009, 06:22 PM
If we must stay on shotgun topic, I will admit I used to have a heat shield on one of my shotguns that I eventually took off. I found it really was just a cosmetic feature.

After firing enough rounds it was still to hot to touch anyway so I am not sure of the purpose. If there was a bayonet mounted on your gun and you had to grab the barrel it would still be too hot.

Now I know some people will scream heracy but if you took a pistol grip only shotgun and mounted a laser sight on the side or bottom of the magazine tube it would make a compact semi accurate weapon. You can hold on to the pistol grip and brace it against your right or left pectoral muscle and it can make a accurate painless shot. I have actually done this on a 25 yard range making head shots on a silhoute target.

Super-Dave
March 20, 2009, 06:27 PM
Hogdogs if this one handed shooting is because of your accident, I understand.

However at 25 yards on a 12" circle, rapidfire, one handed with pistols we might not get anyshots in the black.

To make it harder we could use our non dominant hand. For me that means firing lefty.

Also, we each have to take 8 shots of vodka 5 miniutes before the shoot.

hogdogs
March 20, 2009, 06:44 PM
Not due to my wreck! I just am that good!:cool: Seriously I trained TONS I would routinely go to wal-mart and ask for ammo in a certain cal/gauge and when ask how many boxes I would just say... ALL OF IT!
I don't know if you read it but I tried to melt the barrel of my 500 20 gauge... I also did the same with my P-85 9mm, 1911 colt in .45, mossberg bullpup and 20-30 other guns... i was a "clubber" in a motorcycle club and we would have "training day" quite often. I was Sgt. at arms so I insisted in semi formal training. I would have 2-3 guys loading mags looking for the weakness of my guns and those of my members. Do you know how bad a glock smells after 4-6 hundred rounds of rapid fire? Molten milk jugs are sweet smelling compared to what we smelled! I was, at the time, spending no less than $500 per week on ammo and it was well spent benjamins...
Brent

Super-Dave
March 20, 2009, 06:48 PM
Now you could go to walmart and ask for all of it, and all they have is a 100 round box of .22

My walmart cant even keep in stock those cheap 100 round packs of 7.5 shot.

For the life of me I do not understand why it is so hard to find ammunition.

Its not like everyone is buying shotguns and #9 birdshot to prepare for the upcoming revolution or zombie apocalypse.

Vanya
March 20, 2009, 06:51 PM
If you wave them any harder, they're gonna fall off... :p

hogdogs
March 20, 2009, 07:02 PM
Don't you worry Vanya.... I twirl my gun all the time and it never comes loose!;)
Brent

hogdogs
March 20, 2009, 07:58 PM
Just 8 shots of 80 proof... Dang i didn't know we were havin' breakfast first... I get to add the full order of biscuits and gravy topped with 3 eggs over medium and jalepeno peppers, right.,...?
Brent

wyobohunter
March 20, 2009, 11:42 PM
"Lets both take our pistols and drop them fully loaded into a bucket of mud before the competition even begins."


My mall ninja trap works!!!

What kind of moron would drop his own weapon into a bucket of mud? Maybe a "in the future... the zombies attack... etc.../mall ninja. Nobody who actually shoots would do this.
Hargh Hargh

PS, look at the shotguns real military people use... Very few if any gizmos. KISS

Katrina Guy
March 20, 2009, 11:47 PM
proud owner of a Colt 1911 45 acp by the way.
BACK to that long lost thread of tacti crap, ugh, cool stuff on shotguns *LOL*, after Katrina or in Katrina's aftermath I should say, when no lights are on anywhere, I could see a flashlight on the barrel as a purpose, or a function. Other then something like Katrina, I see little purpose for it unless you live in a rural area with no ambient light outside.
Pssst, Brent, why don't you up the ante, you and that other fellow do a quick draw on an arnry wild hog and see which of the two of you...which of the two of your firearms drops him the fastest. Ok, I'm betting on Brent.

hogdogs
March 21, 2009, 12:29 AM
KG... I will take the hog challenge but i play dirty... All I need is my .22 pistol... I ain't about to shoot a sho nuff warrior hog with a pistol at close range just cuz it ain't so bright... I will, however, shoot a feller in the foot with the .22 after he makes the hog mad... I ain't gotta out run the pig... I just gotta run faster than the slowest guy:D we all need to know our limits and how to best hedge our bet;) My daddy didn't raise an idiot and having spent 3 years during my impressionable adolescence in Vegas I seen what happens to emotional gamblers or folks who just don't know the odds or how to manipulate them!:cool:
Brent

Super-Dave
March 21, 2009, 10:03 AM
Let me explain why the mud test is important.

If anyone here has been in the infantry in the military they would know that under combat conditions your stuff is going to get so gunked up and dirty it might not work.

Now for people who served in Iraq and afghanistan mud was not a problems but fine sand was. There are many cases of troops in afghanistan and iraq who were killed because there weapons were inoperable due to the sand.

Now not even in a combat situation, but on training mission, on many occasions I have experienced assulting a position not even 100 yards away and by the time you got 100 yards your weapon was inoperable.

After low crawling under bob wire and through bob wire and then through the trenches and spider holes and fox holes and by the time you make it to your objective and the enemy is in sight you pull the trigger and your weapon fires one shot. You try to clear your weapon and fire again, nothing works. You then realize you and your weapon is so coated with mud and crap that the weapon is basically useless.

One time in an area in okinawa we were going through an assault course and the enemy had a trench system (really a moat) set up where the only way to reach them was by going through murky swamp like barrier. It was 8' deep after the first step with 80-100 pounds of gear on you sank like a rock. you had to cross this barrier under fire. Once you got on the other side you and your rifle was so coated with muck you looked like a swamp monster.

Now how does that apply to us? Very simple. Once the zombie apocalypse begins you have no idea what you are going to go through. You also have no Idea when you will have time to clean your weapon.

Glocks can easily survive extreme torture tests. You can even fire them underwater (a little modification required). So when the zombie apocalypse occurs and a you are trying to reload your shotgun and a zombe attacks your wife and is about to rip out her neck with his teeth, I know that when I pull out the glock it is going to work and work well.

Homerboy
March 21, 2009, 10:42 AM
Zombie Apocalypse?! Are you for real? ANY gun subjected to harsh treatment will fail. They are machines and need care to reliably work. The Glock 19 the NYPD was issued was loaded with problems, and the only time Glock stepped in to fix them was when the job contacted Ruger for replacement guns. Since I do not intend to crawl through "Bob Wire" and traverse foxholes, I'll stick with my non-plastic, supported chambered pistols that have NEVER failed me. The Glock 19 I had failed on me once in the street, and several other cops I know had the same "Oh ****" feeling when they got a click and not a bang. If I was GIVEN a Glock, I'd sell it for something else.

ArmedInNOR-CAL
March 21, 2009, 11:08 AM
I couldn't help, but chime in. Who actually cares what you call, what you paid for? If I buy something and I want to call it sh*t piece. Hey I will. Another thing a shotgun.....how about 12 gauge or 20 gauge.....sounds about dead on to me. I own a 11-87 premier trap and skeet, Benelli nova
3 1/2", and a 870 TACTICAL....yeah fold over stock, pistol grip, and...rifled barell. I have from one end of the spectrum to the other. If you plan for the worst, and hope for the best, you'll be ahead. I have a bunch of guns that I consider toys, but I was also taught at an early age a gun is not a toy. I simply say this because the world is how you perceive it. If you remain a child then you need to be told when its safe to play.....I HAVE GROWN UP! So have a lot of other people. So if you wanna play like a grown-up and buy an AR with all the bells and wistles like I did, and go rain hell fire in the middle of no where. Thats sounds like fun to me, but in no sense childish

Super-Dave
March 21, 2009, 11:22 AM
What he said.

I plan on using a new remington 870 with 26" barrel, +10 magazine tube extension and speedfeed tactical full length pistol grip stock on trap shooting next month. I am still trying to get a magazine tube extension that fits evenly with the barrel.. Might have to have max100 make one for me.

I dont care what everyone there thinks, I am going to have fun, according to the club rules the shotgun is acceptable to use at the club. I am not in it for competition just for practice on hiitng moving targets with a shotgun.

I am also sure that I will be the only one in the parking lot driving a kia.

So if people with there $4,000 over and unders shotguns dont like me, I really do not care.

wyobohunter
March 21, 2009, 02:41 PM
Sure is a good thing those Leathernecks had Glocks at Iwo Jima... If they were packin' P.O.S 1911's we'd all be under the rule of the Emporer.


Devil Dog... It's "Barbed Wire".

P.S., I really tough hunt is just as hard on gear as a training scenario... Maintenance is the key word.

hogdogs
March 21, 2009, 03:05 PM
Dave, I have been pretty fair with folks on this board... I will say that if I was the range master of a military gun range and you showed up with a pail of mud and pulled any make of pistol out to shoot... You would do push ups until I get tired! I would then report your actions to your commanding officer with the request that you soak yer tater peeler in mud before using it in KP or your toothbrush before cleaning crappers...
I have had guns fall in mud and banged against trees etc... I have literally picked up both pistols and shotguns from sugar sand and knocked them against my uplifted boot before re-firing. But I would never intentionally do this nor allow a person on my yard/range to do so. It literally screams immaturity and that is the number one thing that will get me to shut you down... I won't even discuss it first. I will walk up to you, hold my hand in a way that signals "Lemme see yer gun" and remove all ammo and walk away... the shooter will natually follow his gun and I will stop at the drivers door of your KIA and insist you hop in... once in I will hand you the hardware and walk away. If I cannot trust you to handle this like a man I won't give you your ammo back... Don't get me wrong, I have sent hundreds of pounds down range while drinking liquor or just goofing off but I always had a sober person supervising and I admit it was stupid but that was 20 years ago. We all learn as we go unless totally dense in the head. But to suggest the things you have while in the presence of so many guys and gals that are schooled on guns since before either of us were born (I am 40)... is really comical. I mean it is fine to think it is okay to dredge a gun in mud and fire it is one thing but to repeat this over and over is not getting you "points" with skilled gun operators! The 1911 is one of the most durable and venerable designs ever put on the battlefield. I have but one challenge for you and the plastic pistols... Rapid fire until the gun fails to function... The 1911 shooter must wear gloves to avoid painful burns but it will not fail to function as fast as the molten plastic of a poly gun! Lay all the various shotguns of any brand or type and all the pistols ever made on a table and tell me I must choose one shotgun and one pistol to survive and I will leave with a Mossberg pump and a 1911 in .45 acp...
Brent

Double Naught Spy
March 21, 2009, 03:44 PM
All of the "tactical" crap? Seriously though, I can't be too harsh because I once pondered the best way to strap a light to my Mossberg 500, I also had a pistol grip and heat shield for it. Luckily I came to my senses and learned that practice at clays will make me a much better shotgunner than any silly crap hanging from the scattergun.

I take it that you don't shoot clays at night with your shotgun, huh?

The only crap that "hangs" from my scattergun is the strap. The rest is firmly attached.

jammin1237
March 21, 2009, 07:17 PM
jeez you guys are nuts... its amazing how fast things get of topic...going by the OP there was a question of why tactical "crap" is mounted on a weapon when living in Ninilchik, Alaska... how can we literate the difference between living in a town with approx 2000 people compared to 2.5 million in the same amount of square miles? my response is imagine yourself just on the outskirts of Ninilchik, now imagine your self surrounded by a crap load of angry bears, hungry wolfs, and a couple of ****** off wild boars... you need to be prepared and ready - for anything...so there...( go eagle scouts !):D

cheers

oneounceload
March 21, 2009, 07:46 PM
GEEZUS, the mall-ninja, let-me-think-of-a-scenario, crowd wants the world to end.....


Here's a hint:


IF YOU LIVE IN THAT BAD OF A NEIGHBORHOOD, GET THE "F" OUT OF THERE; otherwise, catch a breath and GET A GRIP.......

Super-Dave
March 22, 2009, 07:55 AM
The zombies will not care where you live. In a big city or the country they will eventually find you.

And just because you live in alaska does not mean much. The zombies will freeze solid in the winter and thaw out in the summer.

inSight-NEO
March 22, 2009, 04:11 PM
GEEZUS, the mall-ninja, let-me-think-of-a-scenario, crowd wants the world to end.....

Here's a hint:

IF YOU LIVE IN THAT BAD OF A NEIGHBORHOOD, GET THE "F" OUT OF THERE; otherwise, catch a breath and GET A GRIP.....

Ahh..there is the "mall-ninja" reference again. Im should not even waste my time with this one (again), but I will say this. Ive had just about every accessory you can think of mounted on my shotgun, at one time or another. Only through trial and error (not simply opinions) have I learned what works best for me and what is considered unnecessary. For me, I have learned that a weapon mounted light (particularly on a long gun), night sights and possibly a full length stock w/ pistol grip are among the primary accessories I deem to be quite useful. Do I expect others to feel the same? Nope. Do I care? Nope.

In terms of the "neighborhood" comment; Im quite sure that many, many individuals who keep weapons for HD do not do so simply because they live in crime-infested areas. To assume that any home (even in a "Leave it to Beaver" or "Andy Griffith" type neighborhood) is impervious to crime is narrow minded to say the very least. All you need to do is watch the news every once in a while to validate this.

Its all about "thinking ahead" and being prepared, even if the chances are less than 2% or so, regarding a violent encounter. In my mind, mounting a light, for instance, to a shotgun or handgun is not of the "mall ninja" mindset, but of the practical one. If you dont agree with it, so be it; thats your personal choice. Just dont slam those of us who see life a bit differently than you.

I have been involved in roughly 4 or more violent encounters over the past decade; fortunately only one involving a handgun. Still, its that one weapon involved encounter which changed my outlook on things just a bit and made me realize that things can go from good to very bad in the blink of an eye, when you least expect it. Keep in mind, these "encounters" were not simply confined to areas you might consider "bad."

If you feel so safe and secure then keep your doors unlocked, welcome all strangers as personal friends and keep your weapons locked up and unloaded (ie., useless) and be content living your life in "condition white" and enjoy. I, however, will choose not to live this way.

PS, look at the shotguns real military people use... Very few if any gizmos

Ive seen heatshields (I have one installed, per the factory, but dont feel I need it..but Ive left it as is) on military weapons, sidesaddles (mainly for LE though) and pistol grip stocks (full stocks, mind you) and lights (again, mainly for LE). So, what Im saying is...I essentially disagree. Besides, most military weapons Ive seen used by infantry, are assault rifles. These, from what Ive gathered, are indeed outfitted with many "tactical" items. Keep in mind, LE/SWAT use shotguns quite often; Im inclined to think even moreso than military (dont quote me on this.) Im willing to bet that, in the very least, they find very real practicality in the use of weapon mounted lights, full length stocks (w/PG) or maybe collapsable stocks and weapon mounted ammo storage. Heck, even the likes of Massad Ayoob and Gabe Suarez, etc., find advantages of weapon mounted lights at least. Should we now consider them "mall ninjas" as well?



My mall ninja trap works!!!

What kind of moron would drop his own weapon into a bucket of mud? Maybe a "in the future... the zombies attack... etc.../mall ninja. Nobody who actually shoots would do this.

What does this actually have to do with "mall ninja" related issues? Dropping a weapon in mud, snow, water, what have you, seems more like durability/torture testing to me. This, while not my personal preference, seems to have nothing to do with how a weapon is accessorized.

Super-Dave
March 22, 2009, 04:25 PM
And don't forget about the zombies.

Katrina Guy
March 24, 2009, 07:17 AM
shoot your comrade in the foot with a .22 , so in flight he's obviouisly the slower runner, i.e. bear snack. LOL
Now then, what's with all this mud talk?? Sounds to me like *puts on my Bob Newhart mask, sits down , puts note pad on my lap, fiddles nervously with my pen* that someone was denied the ability to make mud pies when a child LOL.

hogdogs
March 24, 2009, 07:54 AM
Sounds to me like *puts on my Bob Newhart mask, sits down , puts note pad on my lap, fiddles nervously with my pen* that someone was denied the ability to make mud pies when a child
:D;)
Brent

freakintoguns
March 26, 2009, 03:53 PM
i bet Super dave's glock is better then a .44 magnum wheel gun too. and can drop bears with 9mm FMJs at 100 yards. just cause its a glock.




oh yeah, and when you gotta pistol whip a onry zombie, its easier witha fullstocked shotgun, or metal 1911. the plasticy glocks break to easy ;)

Super-Dave
March 26, 2009, 05:12 PM
pistol whipping zombies don't do much damage.

Geez, where do you people get your information?