PDA

View Full Version : Broken Rifle, Cannot remove from bedding material.


Lavid2002
March 15, 2009, 11:51 AM
I just bedded my 10/22 and tried to get it out of the bedding material. When I gabe it a couple wacks on the BBL with a rubber mallet it didnt budge So I figured I should get a better place to wack at. The trigger guard seemed like it would pop the action right out, but it just broke into 3 peices. I feel like such an idiot how can I get this rifle out of the bedding material?

-Dave

Lavid2002
March 15, 2009, 12:06 PM
I think its in here forever : ( Im really stressing this

wjkuleck
March 15, 2009, 12:26 PM
If the problem is due to an insufficiency of bedding release agent applied to the metal, find a chest freezer. Leave the rifle in overnight. The metal will often contract enough that the adhesion to the bedding material is weakened or broken.

If somehow you created a mechanical lock, e.g., by not using modeling clay to keep the bedding material out of any holes or slots or etc., causing the material to infiltrate those voids, the metal may be locked in place so that it will never come out. The only remedy is to destroy the stock.

Regards,

Walt

Lavid2002
March 15, 2009, 12:46 PM
Rifle is out, I worked screwdrivers down the BBL in increments intil it slid out. It didnt "crack" out like all the other videos. IT kind of gewed out. There is epoxy on the action, BBL, etc... Big mess. Maybe I didnt use a good epoxy?

hogdogs
March 15, 2009, 12:56 PM
My dad loves using epoxy in projects and swears by and exclusively uses the west system... sounds like one component may have "expired" or not enuff hardener. The west system uses "calibrated" pumps for each component.
Brent

Lavid2002
March 15, 2009, 01:42 PM
Once I get this thing cleaned up ill try again witha better release agent and a different epoxy. Until then....this crap is everywhere. I can sand it off the stock, but how can I get it off the action without harming th finish? Any fun chemicals available?

the_right_reverend
March 15, 2009, 01:54 PM
been there done that use Marine tex for bedding and lots of kiwi nuetral shoe polish for release agent visit Rimfire central for more advice on bedding the 10/22

http://www.marinetex.com/images/MTEpoxyPutty.jpg

hogdogs
March 15, 2009, 01:59 PM
Vinegar is the solvent for skin clean up, acetone may be a bit better and doesn't melt most plastic.
will be worth a try on the metal for sure. My father said a hard plastic spatula may help on the metal as the epoxy won't stick and easily cleaned up as you go...
Brent

hogdogs
March 15, 2009, 02:00 PM
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/
This is a liquid not paste epoxy.
Brent

hogdogs
March 15, 2009, 02:04 PM
He also said he uses original style aqua net hairspray. And his buddy uses honey {as a release agent}
Brent

Wildalaska
March 15, 2009, 02:14 PM
Get a piece of hard plastic, like thick plexiglass. Shape it into a chisel and start chipping:)

WildchipchipchipthensolventtocleanofftheremnantsAlaska TM

Lavid2002
March 15, 2009, 02:28 PM
Sweet I never thought of using plastic and plexiglass. DUH Thanks guys! I also found a new trigger guard at brownells.

Tom2
March 15, 2009, 06:00 PM
I got a kit from Acraglas around here somewhere that has all the stuff in it including release agent. Tell me, though, what exactly is the benefit from bedding a common .22 rimfire rifle like the Ruger, unless the stock is actually a bad loose fit? Something proven.

Slopemeno
March 15, 2009, 07:20 PM
Hairspray will work as a release agent, as it's PVA (polyvinyl alcohol), which is what most release agents are.

You're probably better off buying some real release agent and spraying it with an airbrush, though you can apply it with an old t-shirt. You want it to build up a film.

When I bedded actions, I used plain old paste wax. You can tape over any holes (like, say, the ones in the sides of 10/22 actions and trigger groups) before you start, so the epoxy wont flow in.

If you decide to use something like West Systems, you can add something like cabosil/fumed silica to thicken it. You should try sanding this stuff once the epoxy kicks- it's like sanding a rock. The long hairs in cabosil is the same stuff in asbestos, but it it really makes epoxy incredibly strong.

If your epoxy comes out gummy, you probably got the mix ratio a little wrong. Follow the manufacturers directions- does it need a 4-to-1 by volume mix, a 25% by weight, etc? A cheap digital scale is always a good idea. Mixing cups are cheap at your local composites store- I use Tap Plastics, but you probably have something similar where you live.

You can gouge out gummy epoxy and clean the area with solvent, or Goof Off, and try again. I've definitely been there.

elkman06
March 15, 2009, 09:08 PM
Being born anal about such things...i use about ten coats of the release agent from acra glas. Still tight.
elkman06

HiBC
March 15, 2009, 09:36 PM
I don't recall the brand,but I found an aircraft paint stripper that said it disolved epoxy paint.

Someone asked me fit a slightly different bbl to a forend that had been glassed.I tried it,and it removed the accraglas from the wood.
I would assume if it is for aircraft,the aluminum would be safe.It will likely take more than one application,you only get so much penetration

Mike Irwin
March 15, 2009, 11:34 PM
I second the deep freeze. The colder the better, the longer the better.

If you can't find a deep freeze that will work, see if you can find a couple of pounds of dry ice.

I've seen several rifles pulled out of bedding material that way.

Lavid2002
March 16, 2009, 07:16 PM
I went to the store and bought some aircraft paint stripper. Klean-strip Aircraft Remover. Took about three coats but a brass wire brush, and a pleziglass scraper did the job. I then hit my action with some 1,000 grit and got it real shiny :P As for the stock, I sanded it down and beleive it or not it holds the rifle pretty tight still. I think ill keep it the way it is. I have 2 10/22 stocks so ill now bed the other one...then ill move on to my savage.

Tell me, though, what exactly is the benefit from bedding a common .22 rimfire rifle like the Ruger, unless the stock is actually a bad loose fit? Something proven.
Practice makes perfect and I would MUCH rather mess up on my 250$ 10/22 than my 1,200 savage. Also....its cold and rainy here....why not :P it will add some weight to my .22 and benifit me with the off-hand. Also it will eliminate play in my trigger guard assembly from side to side.

T. O'Heir
March 17, 2009, 01:38 PM
If you bedded the barrel channel, take that out too. You bed the action out to under the chamber area of the barrel only.

fisherman66
March 17, 2009, 01:42 PM
If you bedded the barrel channel, take that out too. You bed the action out to under the chamber area of the barrel only.

I'd shoot it with the bedding 'fore I removed it from the channel. Sometimes the full bedded barrel shoots very well.

Bill DeShivs
March 17, 2009, 01:59 PM
Rubbing alcohol (the stronger, the better) will effectively dissolve and remove uncured epoxy.

hardhit
March 17, 2009, 02:46 PM
Here's a good article on rifle bedding using Devcon 10110 and Kiwi shoe polish as the release agent.

www.6mmbr.com/pillarbedding.html

brickeyee
March 17, 2009, 03:49 PM
The solvent for cured epoxy is MEK.

We use it for removing IC packages, dissolving PC boards, examining epoxy dipped components, etc.

It can take some time, and is more effective if heated (no flames though).

Lavid2002
March 17, 2009, 04:06 PM
I'd shoot it with the bedding 'fore I removed it from the channel. Sometimes the full bedded barrel shoots very well.

Ill slap it in the fiberforce stock I have, shoot a group at 50 yards, then slap it in the stock ive been working on and shoot a group. The BBL is now floated, I think it will help.

As far as asthetics go, Ive been sanding and cutting and drilling and painting this stock and this rifle is really starting to some allong. Ill post a picture in a day or so. There wont be a trigger group but youll get the general Idea :P

Gewehr98
March 17, 2009, 08:22 PM
If you bedded the barrel channel, take that out too. You bed the action out to under the chamber area of the barrel only.


Granted, that's a good rule of thumb for centerfire rifles and rifles with steel receivers and threaded-in barrels.

Depending on how this particular 10/22 is configured, however, you may want to support more than the typical 1" of barrel chamber end that is normally bedded.

Why?

Because with a 10/22, the receiver is aluminum, and the barrel shank is held into the receiver's front end by nothing more than a wedge and two allen bolts. It's an interference fit, not threaded, and susceptible to a lot of flexing and subsequent slop.

Hanging the weight of a free-floated barrel from a 10/22's bedded aluminum receiver is not conducive to accuracy or longevity. You're looking for an extra measure of stability when glass-bedding a rifle, and the 10/22 requires a bit of extra vigilance.

When the practice of hanging heavy, large diameter target barrels on Ruger 10/22s began in earnest several years ago, this became a topic of concern. There were several solutions, some of which are adding a second barrel bedding point in the forend, bedding the entire barrel, etc.

I went with the latter on all my 10/22 conversions. I settled on free-floating the receiver, bedding the trigger group, and bedding the barrel the entire length of the stock's barrel channel. The idea behind this approach is that the flexible aluminum receiver is simply a raceway for the blowback bolt to ride back and forth in, and not particularly structural in the general 10/22 scheme of things. True, it's attached to the barrel, but doesn't add as much to the accuracy equation as does the barrel itself, which I consider the backbone of the popular Ruger rimfire.

Bedding the barrel full-length has its own problems, particularly if it's not attached to a synthetic or laminated stock, which are less prone to warpage or expansion/contraction with changing temperature and humidity. My preference is heavy laminated stocks, so I'm not worried about lack of stability. I use Devcon Marine Epoxy, with either powdered aluminum or stainless steel added. Brownell's Acraglas is also a fine product for the job.

It's not a bad idea to peruse the www.rimfirecentral.com forum, and see what works and what doesn't. Chances are that folks there have tried darned near everything. ;)

http://mauser98.com/bigammotest.jpg

Lavid2002
March 17, 2009, 09:55 PM
Here :P stock is painted and finished. All she needs is a layer of clear coat. Also, I ordered a clear anodized trigger guard once it gets in ill install it and SHOOT IT! Im stoked heres a slideshow of my 10/22 from the start to the finish! Im posting it in THIS THREAD.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3376696#post3376696

James K
March 17, 2009, 10:19 PM
Now you know why an old time gunsmith referred to a hatchet as his "stock removal tool" for amateur bedding jobs.

Jim

Lavid2002
March 17, 2009, 10:50 PM
Psh ameteur...do you SEEE this rifle!!!!
lol jk

HiBC
March 18, 2009, 02:27 PM
On the MEK (methyl ethyl ketone) idea,agreed it is a useful solvent.

Good for folks to know it is very bad for you.

avoid exposure

TEDDY
March 20, 2009, 09:24 AM
am I missing something ????you buy a rifle and then have to spend more to make it work.I have a Marlin 60 it hits where I want it to.I did put a scope on it a NcStar 4x cost $15 new.if I want target grade rifle I have 3 mossberg bolt target guns mod 44/144.cost $20 apiece back when.:rolleyes::eek::D

Lavid2002
March 20, 2009, 04:56 PM
am I missing something ????you buy a rifle and then have to spend more to make it work.I have a Marlin 60 it hits where I want it to.I did put a scope on it a NcStar 4x cost $15 new.if I want target grade rifle I have 3 mossberg bolt target guns mod 44/144.cost $20 apiece back when.

I never spent money to make it work. I spent money to make it different and unique because its snowy and cold outside. My buddy has a marlin model 60. He has more stovepipes and FTFs than me. Also I can reload faster than he can : D My rifle also shoots tighter groups.

DnPRK
March 20, 2009, 06:08 PM
You might want to consider an epoxy clearcoat for the polished receiver. Bare aluminum will oxidize, leaving a splotchy appearance.

Lavid2002
March 29, 2009, 12:15 AM
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s161/lavid2002/DSCF2305.jpg
guard came today...all done :P
Edit, my bi-pod is taken off in this picture

brickeyee
March 30, 2009, 09:57 AM
On the MEK (methyl ethyl ketone) idea,agreed it is a useful solvent.

Good for folks to know it is very bad for you.

avoid exposure

Paint thinner is actually worse.

At least MEK has decent purity and is a single compound.

Paint thinner (AKA 'Stoddard solvent') is a mix of whatever boils off at temperature, with relatively little further purification.

YODA308
March 30, 2009, 12:02 PM
anybody ever try spray silicone as a release agent

Unclenick
March 30, 2009, 02:19 PM
Never heard of MEK as an epoxy solvent. Methylene Chloride is what is usually sold for the purpose. It is also the main ingredient in many paint strippers. Most lapidary supply outfits sell it to jewelers for getting stones out of settings they've been epoxied to. I've used it to dissolve cast epoxy cases of semi-conductors. Takes awhile, but does work.

I've also gotten used to using Johnson's Paste Wax as a release. It seems to work better for me than the commercial releases. As to what you drive an action out of a stock with, that is what slide hammers were born to do.

Horseman
March 30, 2009, 06:43 PM
+1 on Johnson's Paste wax as release agent. Nearly every solvent mentioned will eat what Ruger calls a finish on their aluminum 10/22 action. I've had great luck with straight vinegar for wiping up bedding stuck to the barrelled action.

Inspector3711
March 30, 2009, 08:40 PM
The long hairs in cabosil is the same stuff in asbestos

Before we go freaking anyone out here.. I've worked with this material for over 20 years.. Cabosil and Aerosil are two brand names for a product which is actually amorphous fumigated silica. For all intents and purposes it is very fine powdered glass. It contains no asbestos. We use it extensively in the aerospace industry to thicken epoxies when permissible.

Years ago it was found that some of the mines this stuff came from did have some asbestos in them and some of the product tested was contaminated. Those mines were closed long ago. OSHA lists amorphous fumigated silica as a nuisance dust. You should wear a dust mask when using the product to avoid risk of silicosis.

As far as MEK and MC (methelyne chloride) go, they are both bad news. The company I work for no longer uses MC and has strict restrictions on MEK. MC is a carcinogen and tumorigen, and mutagen, as well as reproductive effector. It also has been linked to spontanious miscarriages. Using MC on the job where I work can get you fired. MEK has been show to cause genetic mutations and tooth loss over long periods of occupational exposure. Both cause lung and liver damage. Wear heavy rubber gloves as surgical gloves are almost instantly penetrated by both solvents. Use in a well ventilated area.

To clear up one other subject, the MSDS for paint thinner shows very little in the way of long term health risks. I would have to say thet MEK and MC are both far more toxic than paint thinner. I hold a state and federal hasmat license.

For what it's worth, studies of Nutrasweet have shown that massive doses cause lab rats to gnaw off their own genitals. If you see me huddled in the corner facing away from you, you'll know I drink too much diet pop!