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twocan
March 12, 2009, 07:17 AM
I just purchased a set of pistol grip shotguns: a Mossberg 12 gauge and a Mossberg 20 gauge.

Since my prior experience with shotguns is with buttstock style, I am interested in the best way to aim these guns. Shooting from the hip seems against all reason in regards to a sight picture, and holding the grip with one hand while bracing that forearm with the other hand seems unreasonable to gain a steady aim. (espeially with the 12 gauge)

I would appreciate your thoughts on aiming these fine defensive weapons.

Capt. Art

Slopemeno
March 12, 2009, 08:50 AM
The best way to aim them is to bolt a stock on...

TheManHimself
March 12, 2009, 08:53 AM
PGO shotguns are a bad idea for anything except door breaching. What you really need is a standard stock or pistol grip stock if you want to be able to hit anything beyond 25 feet reliably.

Sam06
March 12, 2009, 09:01 AM
+1 for Slopemo

Put a stock on the gun and it will work great.

Creature
March 12, 2009, 09:12 AM
PG's on a shotgun IMO are worthless.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211622&highlight=pistolgrip+shotgun

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210328&highlight=pistolgrip+shotgun

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101525&highlight=pistolgrip+shotgun

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84503&highlight=pistolgrip+shotgun

freakintoguns
March 12, 2009, 09:38 AM
i went and got a pistol grip for my remington 870 and hated it. got a nasty blister on my trigger finger from it and my wrist hurt for a good 2 weeks. i say swap the pistolgrips outr for a buttstock or pistolgrip buttstock

hogdogs
March 12, 2009, 10:08 AM
NOT THIS WAY!!! :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoClSZyLWqc&feature=related
Really a fun way to shoot once you get used to letting it float through recoil while hip shooting. I have shot a few NO... A A FEWWWWWW clays, some squirrel and rabbits with my 20 gauge with just the pistol grip. But hip shooting and the rare clay or game can also be taken with a full stock from many more shooting positions.
Brent

Scattergun Bob
March 12, 2009, 10:26 AM
I am a great opponent on this forum of Pistol Grip Only (PGO) stocks for Fighting Scatterguns. I have had some experience with short barreled and PGO stocked scatteguns mainly the Ithaca "stakeout" model.

If you had asked before your purchase, I would have tried to dissuade you from your course of action. However, in this case you have the guns (made your bed) and unless you follow the advice of my counterparts "it is what is is." PGO guns.

So, I will try to pass on the things I learned about this type of scattergun;

1st - recoil management at about 80 Ft Lbs of felt recoil for defensive rounds, there is a LOT of energy transfer when you pull the trigger on a shotgun. Most folks try to hold the gun down around their waist (way to low) and all of this energy is transferred to their wrist:eek:, that hurts! A better idea is to bend your arm at the elbow and get your forearm in line with the barrel, this transfers recoil along your forearm and your elbow works as a shock absorber, it is the best we can hope for recoil wise. Make sure not to bend your wrist, another words KEEP the pistol grip centered in the web of your hand "just like a pistol"! Never try to hold the gun with one hand. Never attempt to shoot the gun at eye level with Heavy load of buck or slugs.

2nd - At close range our shot patterns are very small, WE CAN MISS. an old Skeet shooting trick helps, lay the pointing finger of your weak hand along the forend in line with the barrel, use this to point the gun, it will help a little.

3rd - From the normal open shotgun stance take an additional 1/4 step forward this transfer a little more weight forward and helps a little to keep the gun from bucking so viciously. Move your body left and right, not the gun.

The above ideas do help, my advise is " if this is a fighting scattergun then change the stocks", below is MY latest rant about PGO stocks.


1st - humans are heavily influenced by pictures and of weight are pictures of war fighters from the front. We see a lot of shotguns in these pictures with pistol grip only stocks (PGO) but we must understand that these are not "fighting scatterguns" they are specialized and effective breaching/gas throwing tools. The vendors of "toys" for our scatterguns also see these pictures and have exploited a nitch in the market place (you). They key idea here is that for them it is about money, not effectiveness.


3rd - It is difficult to get one's mind around truth that we can and do miss with a scattergun. Myth, legend and folk lore tell us that scatterguns hit without our hand/eye guidance. The reality of the street is that we MUST point the muzzle of our scattergun into a SPECIFIC target to get hits. So, here is my personal reality for you, THE CLOSER THE ENEMY IS TO YOU, THE MORE THE CHANCE OF MISSING. At ten feet our pattern with 00 buck is only about 3" at 20 feet it is about 6", it is not hard to miss with this size pattern.

4th - PGO stocks no matter who makes it do not transfer recoil as well as shoulder mounted stock. They are simply one of those trade offs, to reduce the overall size of the gun, we sacrifice point-ability and recoil management.

Hopefully some of what I have said rings true for you. In the end, you alone have to decide what compromises are to your advantage.

Good Luck & Be Safe

colostomyclown
March 12, 2009, 10:49 AM
Brent, I'm still laughing at that video, lol what a clown. the fact that he's wearing a tac vest and a canteen for some strange reason makes it even better. "Are we recording?" lulz

zippy13
March 12, 2009, 10:49 AM
+1 for Scattergun Bob

My friend, it's nice to hear the real skinny on PGO shot-gunning. Usually we just get reports of what happens when it's done incorrectly -- OUCH!

rantingredneck
March 12, 2009, 11:01 AM
I think Scattergun Bob pretty much nailed this one (as always).

Replacement buttstocks are not terribly expensive and will be a very easy upgrade to your two new Mossberg 500's.

Check the usual online retail locations or the classifieds here and the other big firearms sites (AR15.com, THR, etc.). Another option is to check www.havlinsales.com. A good resource for all things Mossberg (and a few things Remington). Stock sets there are fairly inexpensive and in great shape. Quick service too.

The good news is there's always someone else out there who will buy a PGO off you to help finance your new purchase. No matter how many rants the regulars here in the shotgun forum post against them, there are some who just have to learn the hard way :D.

hogdogs
March 12, 2009, 11:08 AM
Yes the method of holding one is what I practiced PGO never below the belly button.
I have run un countable rounds from the John Wayne style low hip shooting stance but just fer C-N-G and with the 20 gauge and usually with field loads so the brutal recoil of a HOT 12 load wasn't there to injure my wrist.

A good thing is the stocks swap real easy and now you own the "FUN" style... keep it around.

Havlin sales has stocks of OEM new or take offs that are priced real good.
http://havlinsales.com/default.htm

CC, The canteen was nice touch but the "are you recording" hit me in the head like a PGO lipshot as "HEY YA'LL WATCH THIS...!!!!"
Brent

hogdogs
March 12, 2009, 11:09 AM
Rant, I gotta type less to beat you to pluggin' Mr.Havlin, I see...
Brent

rantingredneck
March 12, 2009, 11:24 AM
Vic and Cheryl have gotten a lot of my money over the years :D.

Good folks.

Cerick
March 12, 2009, 01:21 PM
what about pgo shotgun with a laser? then you can fire accurately from the hip. hmmmm

Creature
March 12, 2009, 02:09 PM
I think Scattergun Bob pretty much nailed this one (as always).

Finally he shows up! I was waiting for either him...or Dave McC...to weigh in.

bestbod85
March 12, 2009, 02:48 PM
IMO pgo shotguns have their place. i've used shotguns for many years and love em!!!... given the choice in a defensive situation i'll always go for the full stock. that being said, sometimes concealability and mobility is a factor so as of a few years ago, i bought and have been practicing with a pgo remington 870. after careful consideration i have come to the conclusion that for defensive use out to 30 yards the pgo is a very effective weapon. shooting from the hip i can easily hit a pie plate to 30 yards (00 buck) and using a two handed grip ( like gripping a pistol) i have shot out to 100 yards (with slugs) effectively ( granted the follow up shot is extremely slow and you have to transition your grip to shuck the gun ). i have never had a problem with the recoil with any shotgun - full or pgo stock ( 6'2'' 240 lbs) ymmv:D

freakintoguns
March 12, 2009, 03:37 PM
ROTFLMAO @ that video hogs! funny stuff right there

hogdogs
March 12, 2009, 03:42 PM
I ain't the first to post that link but I feel absolutely no guilt rippin' it regularly!

What I wanna know is if dental work was needed and how bad of a hair lip he has now!:D:D:D
Brent

Slopemeno
March 12, 2009, 04:03 PM
Take that PGO shotgun to your local bowling pin or USPSA match and see how you do. I think you'll find the difference between casual accuracy and what it takes to hit under pressure are two different things.

If you want to hit "at speed", put a normal stock back on it.

twocan
March 12, 2009, 04:24 PM
Thank you all for your informative responses.

Fortunately, each of these shotguns also has a stock, as I was afraid of the problems that you all described with a pistol grip only situation.

I may try some of the tips with the 20 gauge, but I am certain that the stock goes on the 12 gauge tonight.

The laser sight idea is interesting though.

Thanks again.

Creature
March 12, 2009, 04:36 PM
I am not opposed to this type of PG though:

http://i83.servimg.com/u/f83/12/63/91/01/poster11.jpg

Slopemeno
March 12, 2009, 05:30 PM
I actually like Choate's version of that stock. Kinda small buttplate, but otherwise workable.

rantingredneck
March 12, 2009, 05:51 PM
The Speedfeed III and IV aren't bad stocks either.

I still prefer the standard non pg full buttstock.

Speedfeed II or Remington Police/Wingmaster walnut.

hoytinak
March 12, 2009, 06:06 PM
I've tried a couple of different setups for my HD shotgun...just pistol grip, speedfeed, ATI M4 sytle collapsible and didn't really like any of them. I ended up going back to a stock but with a shortend LOP. I really like this for HD as it's nice and compact but still comfortable to shoot. I just like to keep it simple. :)

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5796/dsc00622hdh.jpg (http://img22.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00622hdh.jpg)

Creature
March 12, 2009, 06:37 PM
Hoyt:

That looks to be about as perfect a shotgun for SD as you can get! I like that its a Mossberg too. I much prefer the safety and bolt release location on the Mossbergs over anything else.

rantingredneck
March 12, 2009, 06:53 PM
http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo306/rantingredneck/DSC00991.jpg

The Mossberg's at the top with one of my 3 870's in the middle and the 11-87 on the bottom. I'm noticing lately I'm becoming and oldephart :D. My shotguns are starting to wear wood stocks over synthetics.

Matter of fact the 11-87 on the bottom now wears wood. Only my loaner 870 (not pictured) has synthetic Speedfeed II's now.

The Mossberg has one of the rare 18.5" heavy wall Accuchoke barrels too.

http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo306/rantingredneck/DSC00994.jpg

Evil patterns with that extended Mod choke.

hoytinak
March 12, 2009, 07:07 PM
Where'd you get the front sling adaptor on the 500? I gotta get me one of those. :cool:

Edit: Nevermind, man I feel like an idiot, I've had this thing for years and never knew the take down screw was threaded in the middle....found a sling adapter that just screws in. :o At least I learned something today. ;)

Dave McC
March 12, 2009, 08:16 PM
Sorry I'm late....

Some history.

Back in 1981 I was a Sgt in the MD DOC. While I survived the House of Correction riot on May 19th of that year, the real low point of my year was having to get 300 new Correctional Officers trained with firearms for the new prison being staffed, now called MD Correctional Institution-Jessup.

I was not the head instructor, but I was the shotgun guy by default.

And, the Powers That Be had decreed that all officers would be qualified with not only the 870 with standard stock, but a folding stock 870 and shot from the hip.

Did I mention they had to fire slugs also, just for familiarization?

So, I got to shoot lots of demos, had to develop a training module and then teach a bunch of absolute newbies.

After a figurative pile of empties got shin deep, I came up with a form that did provide a modest amount of effectiveness, but at the cost of speed, accuracy and flexibility.

After getting all those folks through the training and MOST of them qualified, I came to a couple conclusions that nothing since has changed.

PGO shotguns and folders shot from the hip work much better in the movies than real life.

While a dedicated and gifted shooter can reach a fair degree of accuracy after much practice, the same amount of practice invested using a standard shotgun with a real stock will see that shooter absolutely DEADLY.

Most civilians have little need for a breaching tool, a shotgun used in the confines of a Brinks truck and fired through ports or one that can be stowed easily in a bush plane. Those are the only uses for a PGO shotgun I can come up with.

Or you can take kewl pics of them and post them on the Net for Mall Ninja street cred.....

rantingredneck
March 12, 2009, 08:22 PM
Edit: Nevermind, man I feel like an idiot, I've had this thing for years and never knew the take down screw was threaded in the middle....found a sling adapter that just screws in. At least I learned something today.

I was gonna ask if you had never noticed that......:D.

The only sling studs I had handy when I did mine were too long and were the type that have an unthreaded shank of about a quarter inch below the stud. I solved that problem with a dremel cutoff wheel and a black hard rubber plumbing washer. Works well.

That short accuchoke barrel came in handy when I started back hunting after my back surgery in 07. Light and handy enough package to hump around when I was only back up to half speed. Rolled a deer with it at 30 yds with 2 3/4" managed recoil buckshot 11 weeks after my dive from the treestand.

Kmar40
March 13, 2009, 08:38 PM
I've tried a couple of different setups for my HD shotgun... I ended up going back to a stock but with a shortend LOP. I really like this for HD as it's nice and compact but still comfortable to shoot. I just like to keep it simple. I agree that some version of a shortened LOP is probably best for the HD. IF you are moving within the house (to secure the children's room or whatever), you really don't lose maneuverability with this at all. If you carry muzzle down or even on some ready for TV underarm assault or hipshooting position, the shortened buttstock doesn't protrude any more than the thickness of your body so a PGO has NO advantage I can think of except someone with a specific storage issue (box, vehicle, or something) in which those extra inches make the difference.

Some people can get by with a PGO. But I can guarantee you that anyone who is a good shot with a PGO would be a great shot with a stock.

rantingredneck
March 13, 2009, 08:45 PM
box, vehicle, or something

I traded for a Remington 870 a year or two back that had a Butler Creek folding stock on it from the factory. Special edition run. My intention was for it to be the travel gun for when the wife and I take extended vacations and live in a hotel room for a few days. Fold away and stash in a regular duffle bag so it's discreet and all. Realized after a few range trips that the stock was not terribly conducive to actually shooting. Couldn't get a mount that didn't ride the folding stock into my cheek with the recoil. Swapped it out for a Speedfeed full stock quickly and sold the folder.

Now when we travel the 870 stays locked up in the truck/van and the .45 goes into the room with us. That's what handguns are for right? Fighting your way to the rifle/shotgun you should have had in the first place? ;)

Re4mer
March 14, 2009, 10:15 AM
Shooting from the hip seems against all reason in regards to a sight picture, and holding the grip with one hand while bracing that forearm with the other hand seems unreasonable to gain a steady aim. (especially with the 12 gauge)

I wont comment on pistol vs non-pistol grip thing since it has already been done, but generally speaking when in a close combat shooting situation you are going to be point shooting and wont have time to get a perfect sight picture.

Kmar40
March 15, 2009, 05:55 PM
Yes, but point shooting from the hip is VASTLY inferior to point shooting from the shoulder, I don't care what you've seen on TV. Go to the skeet range. See how m any of the "point shooters" are shooting from the hip with a PGO.

hogdogs
March 15, 2009, 06:04 PM
You are at higher risk of losing the gun in a scuffle with PGO. You also lose the capacity to use your empty shotgun as a great club if the need presents itself...
Brent

inSight-NEO
March 15, 2009, 06:26 PM
I do not like PGO for the simple fact that they are miserable when it comes to weapon control. Frankly, for HD, I prefer PG equipped full length stocks (similar to the SureGrip/SteadyGrip stocks offered for the Benelli SuperNova) as I think these are absolutely ideal for close quarters situations. The close second would be, of course, "traditional" stocks. But, PGO....nah.

ibe4buckshot
March 29, 2009, 10:41 PM
Put a stock on it. I have never ever seen any special purpose for pistol grip shotguns exept for being a bit more easy to store.

biohazurd
March 30, 2009, 01:30 AM
Well i agree that pistol grip shotguns realistically are not a good idea but i like to carry a shotgun in my car when traveling in wilderness-like areas so i bought an aftermarket ak-47 style folding stock pistol grip for my Mossy 500 shotgun so in case i need it in my i have a bit more manueverabilaty (is that spelled right) and if i want i can just fold out the stock and keep on going...

Kmar40
March 30, 2009, 10:12 PM
NOT THIS WAY!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoClS...eature=relatedLMAO. I missed this earlier somehow. That's like Mall Ninja extreme SWAT action there.

Tell the truth, Hotdog. That's you, isn't it?

Yep. It's really easy to "point" that shotgun without the stock.

Is it on? BOOM! : drip drip :

And yet the shotgun still didn't have enough "knockdown power" to knock him off his feet.

TxGun
March 30, 2009, 11:19 PM
bestbod85

IMO pgo shotguns have their place. i've used shotguns for many years and love em!!!... given the choice in a defensive situation i'll always go for the full stock. that being said, sometimes concealability and mobility is a factor so as of a few years ago, i bought and have been practicing with a pgo remington 870. after careful consideration i have come to the conclusion that for defensive use out to 30 yards the pgo is a very effective weapon. shooting from the hip i can easily hit a pie plate to 30 yards (00 buck) and using a two handed grip ( like gripping a pistol) i have shot out to 100 yards (with slugs) effectively ( granted the follow up shot is extremely slow and you have to transition your grip to shuck the gun ). i have never had a problem with the recoil with any shotgun - full or pgo stock ( 6'2'' 240 lbs) ymmv

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree. While a PGO SG is severely limited in it's versatility, they do have their place...a travel piece is one example. Recoil? Should not be a problem for an experienced shotgunner unless you have some physical impairment. (12 ga. recoil, even with buck or slugs, is vastly overrated anyway, IMO. Some folks seem to want to make it mythical every chance they get :rolleyes:). Accuracy? Yes, I agree here too...I can easily hit a coke (or beer :)) can out at 20 yards 9 out of 10 times with 4 buck if I'm focused. And that's nothing special. My brothers can do that. My hunting buddy can do that too. A PGO SG is more than accurate enough at defensive ranges, which, after all, is all they are meant for.

But again, to me they are not very versatile and 90+% of the time you are much better served with a full stocked gun.

amd6547
March 31, 2009, 05:36 AM
I have one of these:
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=179485 (Idon't endorse sportsmans guide, by the way...a terrible company I will never deal with again)
--on my Mossberg 500, and like it alot. In use, it is like shooting a standard buttstock, and handles recoil much better than the regular pistol grips.
It can be used from the hip, but I usually hold it in a raised mid-high ready position. It points very intuitively. I have the Hogue overmolded fore-end so I can get a good solid bracing grip on the front.
Of course, I have regular buttstock as well, and can configure my shotgun however I want, but around the house, the speedfeed is on it. This grip is also great for the Mossberg, since it does not impede the use of the top-mounted safety.

hogdogs
March 31, 2009, 07:32 AM
Kmar, That ain't me... I don't have a green canteen...:eek::D
Brent

Southern Rebel
March 31, 2009, 09:11 AM
THE CLOSER THE ENEMY IS TO YOU, THE MORE THE CHANCE OF MISSING. At ten feet our pattern with 00 buck is only about 3" at 20 feet it is about 6", it is not hard to miss with this size pattern.

As Hank says, country boys was raised on shotguns. If I can't hit center mass pretty much EVERY TIME at 10 and 20 ft with a my pg shotgun, I'll donate all of my shotguns to charity. Nevertheless, given the time, distance, and opportunity to properly aim, I would definitely want the regular gunstock shotgun. (Granted, a quickly moving target would hinder my success, but movement is always a pain for shooters who are used to targets that have a bullseye to aim for and a cooperative target that stays put!)


Pg shotguns are not totally useless - they have a few niches where they are handy. Of course, knowing how to hold them and how to shoot them is part of the problem. But this type of problem is also true when you hand a rookie a 44 magnum (or Desert Eagle 50). I choose to have both stocked and pg just as a matter of convenience.



manueverabilaty (is that spelled right)

No, but that is an honorable attempt - it certainly elevates you to a higher plateau than a "homie"!

jammin1237
March 31, 2009, 05:40 PM
forgive my ignorance... why on earth would any one want to shoot any gun from the hip?
if the pattern is approx 3" to 6" or even a 12" spread at 20 feet, why wouldnt you be aiming?

the only way i would ever hip shoot or just "point" any weapon is if the target is a couple of feet away or in a anti-mob/gang(crowd control?) defensive move....

i happen to love pistol grips, seems to help me keep the weapon in a tight pattern....

Kmar40
March 31, 2009, 09:37 PM
forgive my ignorance... why on earth would any one want to shoot any gun from the hip?
1. Ignorance- they've never really shot the thing and don't know any better (but probably have taken many pictures of it)
2. Mall Ninjaness (tactikewlality)
3. They don't have a stock (PGO shotgun) and have no other option that doesn't involve taking the butt of the receiver between the teeth after every shot

if the pattern is approx 3" to 6" or even a 12" spread at 20 feet, why wouldnt you be aiming?See above

2edgesword
March 31, 2009, 11:19 PM
For close range HD a pistol grip shotgun fits the bill. I have a Mossberg 500 with a Knoxx recoil reducing pistol grip. My technique is to point shoot while holding the shotgun with the grip to the side of my right pectoral (I'm right handed).

You need to resist the tendency to raise the muzzle and let your body do what it does naturally, point to the object you're looking at. With some practice you can hit center of mass consistently out to 25 yards which is well within the range of a typical HD encounter which is more like 3 ~ 10 yards.

Scattergun Bob
April 2, 2009, 12:32 AM
As Hank says, country boys was raised on shotguns. If I can't hit center mass pretty much EVERY TIME at 10 and 20 ft with a my pg shotgun, I'll donate all of my shotguns to charity.

I'm not talking about ambushing some poor ground squirrel standing there with a startled look on it's face. I am talking about center punching a human at 10 to 12 feet in the 3/4s of a second you have left before he does it to you. And by the way if you DON'T make that shot, it will be your next of kin that donates your scatterguns to charity, not you.

I am a country boy, and I learned early in life that seeing the bead wins most of the time, sorry Hank.

hogdogs
April 2, 2009, 12:40 AM
SGB knows of what he speaks and I will add a little touch of drivel to it... It isn't that you have 3/4 seconds to get off a tuff shot but you need to already be back on target before the first shell hits the floor! In a 2 handed "mounted" stance of many positions with gobs of practice and training you will not only be able to remain on target but you will be able to do this while making forward and rearward motion as well as side to side and combinations of these. You will also have a very firm and stable posture that will be very balanced thus avoiding being off kilter...
Look for the latest poll I am starting...
Brent

amd6547
April 2, 2009, 09:30 AM
I could make the shot "SGB" describes with my set up, and make a quick follow up, all using full power 00 buck.

Anyone who choses to defend themselves should practice with their chosen weapon(s). Those who chose the PG shotgun, know it's limitations and tecniques for proper use, and practice, can be very fast and accurate. The speed feed chickenhead grip I use is almost in another catagory, it handles recoil so well. It also lends itself to point shooting much better. This grip is nearly identical in concept to the ones used by the Secret Service in their witness protection shotgun.

darkgael
April 2, 2009, 07:10 PM
Slightly off the topic but recoil management at about 80 Ft Lbs of felt recoil for defensive rounds,
What rounds are those that will produce 80 ft.lbs of free recoil in, let's say, a six pound gun.?
I know the recoil is high but that seems like a lot. A normal one ounce load is at 32 ft.lbs - and tough enough to shoot with a PGO.
Pete

Scattergun Bob
April 2, 2009, 10:48 PM
You are absolutely right, as usual my fingers don't type what my mind is thinking.:o I agree that some where in the range of 40 ft lbs of felt recoil is more in line with fighting loads.

thanks, Bob

Southern Rebel
April 3, 2009, 01:44 PM
I am talking about center punching a human at 10 to 12 feet in the 3/4s of a second you have left before he does it to you.

Hmmm.................Just sitting here wondering just HOW MANY humans you have center punched i 3/4 seconds in your lifetime.

Different human beings have different shooting abilities (and also different physiological reactions to extreme stress apparently). I stand by my original statement - in a 3/4 second encounter, I will put the lead into your human at 10 feet a lot quicker than you will - unless of course are walking around with your magical shoulder-mounted stock already mounted and pointed in the right direction.

If you have to aim at 10 ft, it would indicate you have not had a lot of practice shooting a pg shotgun. (I would still admit to preferring a regular stock if and when I have the time and the distance is more of a challenge.)

Kmar40
April 3, 2009, 03:58 PM
Internet commando high alert.

amd6547
April 3, 2009, 04:15 PM
It really annoys me when webrats decend to insult because others don't agree with their dogma.
If a pistol grip shotgun isn't to your needs or abilities, that is fine. But it does happen to fill a niche for me. Such shotguns have been used for a century by some folks who know a thing or two about self defense.

Tucker 1371
April 3, 2009, 04:17 PM
BUY A STOCK!!! Please do yourself a favor. I'm 19 and not exactly what you'd call weak and I can barely hold on to my grandpaw's Mossy 500 PGO in 12ga.

I was shooting slugs and the daggum thing nearly hit me in the chest every time. Its the only gun I can say with out a doubt that I thoroughly did not enjoy shooting.

Now my grandpaw is about 6'6" and 260 so it doesn't bother him nearly as much but unless you want to carry this shotgun in the car with you I thin the best way to go is to slap a stock on there.

amd6547
April 3, 2009, 04:55 PM
I have a stock. I also have a Remington Model 11 riot gun, a shining example of John Brownings brilliance.
Yet, the pistol gripped shotgun has it's uses for me as well. Again, if you can't handle it, or don't feel you need it, don't buy one. But don't tell me I shouldn't have one, or that they can't be fired accurately, or that they are useless. Perhaps those descriptions apply to you, but not to me.

Dave McC
April 3, 2009, 05:04 PM
Any of you PGO fans live near central MD?.....

jammin1237
April 3, 2009, 06:39 PM
i'm still trying to get some idea of where pistol grip shotgun denial comes from... if i look at the two "tac style" firearms i have, they almost have the same ergonomic profile... one AR and one win 1300 defender...

has this forum ever discussed hip shooting ARs with accuracy?

just a thought...


cheers!

jammin1237
April 3, 2009, 06:40 PM
http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=44982&stc=1&d=1238801969

Dave McC
April 3, 2009, 07:52 PM
Jammin', I have little conflict with those who prefer a long arm with an AR style separate PG.

I do better, at least with shotguns, with the classic stock design. If I decide to buy the Saiga here on extended T&E loan, I may get the conversion done and compare splits just to see how a separate PG helps or hinders.

I do, repeat, do, have issues with those who claim to be Death Walking with a shotgun sans any stock.

BTDT, got the T shirt and the coffee mug.

I KNOW how much more effort and training achieving minimum proficiency with a stockless shotgun takes. From what some people allege on the Net concerning their performances, I take any input with a grain of salt.

Heck, sometimes I'm wanting hipboots, it gets so deep.

TxGun
April 3, 2009, 11:09 PM
I've shot a lot of shotguns over the past 40 years, and while I certainly prefer a full stock, PGO shotguns are just not that difficult to shoot. And shoot well if you take some time to practice. Now when I say shoot well, I'm talking about at defensive distances, of course. That's what they are designed for, after all.

Check the breacher's grip video on the attached link:

http://www.knoxx.com/action_videos/Knoxx_Videos.php

The little guy seems to be a bit of a wuss, though. The 'lil 'ol girl could probably wrestle him down :).

Southern Rebel
April 3, 2009, 11:45 PM
I do, repeat, do, have issues with those who claim to be Death Walking with a shotgun sans any stock.

I don't recall anyone claiming to be Death Walking, but my God, man - at 10 feet you can practically reach out and put the muzzle in the belly button.

Just because you can't perform, doesn't mean it can't be performed. I have issues with those who claim others can't do something because THEY can't do it.

I have witnessed some remarkable shooting with handguns that didn't involve the standard two-hand grip and the use of sights. I couldn't have come any where near to duplicating it, but I wouldn't deny what I saw just because of my lack of that particular skill.

In the end, it matters not whether I agree with you or you agree with me. It makes for interesting conversation, but that is the extent of it.

Slopemeno
April 4, 2009, 12:56 AM
I don't have issues with people who claim they can hit fast and accurate with a PGO shotgun, it just seemed like *they* never showed up at my league. The guys who missed poppers at 25 feet under the timer sure did though...

Shot per shot, training hour per training hour, the stock is an advantage.

TxGun
April 4, 2009, 01:51 AM
"Shot per shot, training hour per training hour, the stock is an advantage."

I don't imagine anyone would argue that point.

11bravo_2papa
April 4, 2009, 02:19 AM
while i'll agree a stock adds accuracey, for home defense i don't see any problem with having a pistol grip on your shotgun. i personally use a pg on my shotgun for home defense. i regularly pratice with it and for cqb consider it a formitable option. would i use it for deer season? no, but that's not what it's made for. one thing my 1sgt did when we were in kuwait waiting for the invasion of iraq was to cut the stocks on all our companys shotguns and "shorten" the barrels. it worked for us then and i still swear by it for cqb purposes now.

Southern Rebel
April 4, 2009, 07:58 AM
I've shot a lot of shotguns over the past 40 years, and while I certainly prefer a full stock, PGO shotguns are just not that difficult to shoot. And shoot well if you take some time to practice. Now when I say shoot well, I'm talking about at defensive distances, of course. That's what they are designed for, after all.

TxGun, destiny has called upon us - we just need to open a pg shotgun self-defense shooting school. It is obvious that there is both a need and a demand. Of course we will have to decline wanna-be deer hunters, trick shooters, skeet shooters, and long-range sniper candidates!

"I don't need to kill everybody, Tom - just my enemies." - (The Godfather)

(I ain't even gonna discuss my grandfather's quail hunting with a .22 rifle because he thought it ultimate stupidity to waste expensive shotgun ammo when a cheap .22 would do the job. And, yes, he did allow them to take flight before knocking them down. He was like most of his generation which pretty much went by the concept that you didn't go to hunt game - you went to kill game, because having hungry children was just not acceptable.)

amd6547
April 4, 2009, 09:36 AM
I guess those secret service witness protection agents who use pistol gripped shotguns just didn't know any better.

hogdogs
April 4, 2009, 10:20 AM
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346396
As a person who has owned and operated shotguns since I was 8 on a VERY regular basis I feel I have a bit of quantified experience that allows me to speak on this subject.
I have used PGO, AR style PG stock, and factory style stocks. I have never fired a "gentleman's" grade of gun in my life so an elitist I am not! I have fired sawed off .410 with 7 inch barrel extensively on up to 28 inch field guns. Far more than 99% of my intended targets had blood coursing thru their veins. I have had varying degrees of success with each gun. I have also self trained in both the domicile and outdoor environs.
The PGO is a fun gun! But no one can ever say it is equal or superior to a stocked weapon. The AR style has limitations. The regular stock has NO LIMITATIONS in any type of use. The only limitation in the use of a regular stock is with the shooter.
In my offer I linked to I am serious about taking a week of my time to share extensively with any one serious about learning skills they may have only begun to work with. Not everyone has the locale to allow repeated heavy shooting to impart habitual skill. In this offer you are not only invited to shoot whatever you bring (shotgun wise) but you will also get to fire my guns all you want as well. One thing this will do is make you more dependent on your own discipline and not the gun. Also you will be able to compare a 28 inch, 18 inch of mine to what ever of yours. I will hold all results in confidence and if you choose to post about it I will opine at that time. Records of hit miss ratio etc. can be kept. You can switch your gun around day to day as well. This isn't just a shell wasting opportunity. Tactical practice as well as some FoF for you as well. Multiple attacker scenario as well as Junior would love to participate. we will also sling a few cases of clays for you... Not those preset trap and skeet type either... Hand slinger at various heights and angles... mostly lower and slower than those sport machines can handle. I have done these tasks with PGO and assure you no amount of skill with it will account for as many hits as you would get with a stock even if you never used a stocked shotgun in your life... PROMISE!
Funny thing about my offer that is serious and intended to help guys mostly new to HD/SD shotgunning is that the guys who have shown interest are mostly already as well trained if not more at one discipline or other than me...
Man I would have belly crawled 100 miles on broken glass in my younger days to take up an offer like this... It took me 30 years to self train (a few guys had some input in how I should train) what I would like to share in a week or so....
Brent

TxGun
April 4, 2009, 11:50 AM
"But no one can ever say it is equal or superior to a stocked weapon."

I agree. Again, I don't think anyone would argue that point.

TxGun
April 4, 2009, 12:02 PM
"But no one can ever say it is equal or superior to a stocked weapon."

I agree. Again, I don't think anyone would argue that point.

All I'm saying is that one can learn to shoot a PGO gun effectively at conflict distances and that they have their place in certain circumstances where compactness or concealibility are desired...a travel gun might be one example. They are not that hard to shoot accurately at SD/HD range and the recoil is certainly not something overwhelming. Look, I have an even dozen short barrelled shotguns at this moment (bird guns are another story :)). Only 1 of those is a PGO gun. Does that tell everyone something??? Do you think I prefer a PGO gun over a full-stocked gun??? Haven't I said at least twice in this thread that I do not??? Jeez, this stuff ain't that hard to understand.

amd6547
April 4, 2009, 12:06 PM
Nobody is saying that a pistol gripped shotgun is superior for all uses, or that it rocks for skeet shooting.
All I am saying, is that if you kick through my door at zero dark thirty, I will put a load of 00 buck in your chest.

hogdogs
April 4, 2009, 12:32 PM
I understand they can be a good "coach gun"... Heck during "snake season" I have been known to carry my 20 on the dash with PGO to blast diamond backs in areas where we run hog dogs. But that is at point blank range with a field load. The same gun rides fine on the dash with a full stock.
The only advantage (remember I have owned and operated the 3 named stock types extensively) is that a PGO can be carried with a sigle PG mounted swivel under my arm with sling over my shoulder while I also run dogs on leads... What for? I dunno, maybe to shoot a dillar (make ankle twisting holes) or a rabbit (treat for the dogs) or a squirrel for the snake....
If hip shooting is your desire a regular stock works great but an AR style suffers. If HD is your need than the regular stock is superior as you have the most available holds and mounts but the AR style and pistol grip both suffer. for true SD, the risk of hand to hand combat should be factored in and only the PGO suffers in this situation. The PGO really isn't very secure from being forcibly removed by a determined aggressor. Not even the double pistol grip...
Brent

Dave_Shotgun
April 4, 2009, 02:32 PM
Hey everyone. I just want so say thank you to everyone for commenting on pistol grip vs. stock shotguns. I'm new to shooting and I am planning on buying a 12 gauge shotgun. I just took the firearm safety course last weekend and I'm waiting on my firearms licence (I'm from Canada).

I was initially planning on buying shotgun with a stock and then sawing off the stock, but after reading this thread, I will definitely be keeping the stock. I'm 28, but I only weigh 155 lbs and I don't think I would be able to handle the recoil of a PG shotgun. I've watched some videos on youtube of people injuring themselves with guns, because they couldn't handle the recoil. My shotgun will be primarily for home protection, but I would also like to be able to shoot it reasonably accurately.

Here is the link to the gun I'm planning on buying:

http://www.canadaammo.com/product.php?productid=20&cat=3&page=1

hogdogs
April 4, 2009, 02:45 PM
Neat lookin, decent price. Is it chinese/turkish?
Brent

Dave_Shotgun
April 4, 2009, 03:17 PM
I think I read somewhere that Dominion Arms manufactures their guns in China and they're imported and sold by canadaammo.com, but I could be wrong.

amd6547
April 4, 2009, 04:50 PM
If you look hard enough on youtube, you will also see people hurt themselves with stocked shotguns and even handguns. Stupidity and improper technique can be dangerous.

Dave McC
April 4, 2009, 08:19 PM
Who said I can't perform, Southern Rebel?

In MD's old LE 3 gun league, I was HOA in 83 and 85. Runnerup in 84 to someone I taught.

Prior to that, I had to teach a few hundred COs to shoot folders from the hip. And I had to qualify over 90% on our course to remain a certified instructor. I did, but it took work I didn't need to do with a regular shotgun.

I've fired hundreds, maybe thousands of rounds from PG shotguns.

And folks that know me allow I hit most of what I shoot at.

Chances are I shoot rings around the average reader here and way better than the PGO fans.

Of course I'll never get to prove that since them guys just don't show up at the range.

Neither myself nor anyone else can shoot a PGO as well as a standard shotgun.

Why work with inferior equipment when the stakes are high?

hogdogs
April 4, 2009, 08:35 PM
Why work with inferior equipment when the stakes are high?
HERE HERE!!! And AMEN!!!
And a lesson on tactics from another "ol bull" who waits for the young bulls to run down the hill and run the fat off the heifers.

this is a true story and I learned a great deal from it...
'Twas about 1977 or '78 and I was on a summer truckin' trip with my dad. He had to lay over every weekend in Sanford Florida awaiting his weekly load of tropical plants. He would stay at the Days Inn which was about 4 or 5 floors... I was 9 or 10 at the time. He had given me a whoppin' 20 dollar bill to spend as I see fit for the weekend but the deal was "when yer broke... yer broke, don't ask for money." well first night in the motel I seen that cool elevator after we had been up the stairs to our room. I said "Daddy, why did we walk up the stairs if there is an elevator?" He said "'Cuz the elevator is SLOW." Well when we were heading down to go to pizza hut I head for the elevator and hit the \/ button... He said he would take the stairs... I said "RACE YA..." He said "Loser buys supper" I said "Yer on!" I get in and hit the "1" and door close buttons... Door opened at each floor and no one was there to get on... I get to ground level and he is standing there with arms folded waiting on me.... I was HOT!!! I said "What the heck?" Over the supper he made me pay for he simply said "Son, you gotta learn never to gamble on anything less than a sure thing... than it is an investment." He also added that... "You need to learn to hedge your bets" And... "If you find yourself in a fair fight you ain't cheating hard enuff..."
Now back to Dave McC's point I quoted... "Any Questions???"
Brent

amd6547
April 5, 2009, 08:12 AM
I am 52 and fired my first 22 at age 5. Been shooting rifles, handguns and shotguns ever since.
This is my final post on this subject, since it is getting repetitive.
1. No one claims that Pistol gripped shotguns are best as general use HD shotguns, best for hunting, best for skeet.
2. Pistol gripped shotguns have been used by pros for serious close quarters self defense.
3. If you don't feel the need to own one, or find that you are unable to perform with one within it's area of strength (close quarter combat, indoor SD), then don't own one.
Just don't insult those who take the time to practice with and master this weapon, and find that it fills a particular niche in their SD arsenal.

Southern Rebel
April 5, 2009, 09:53 PM
This is my final post on this subject, since it is getting repetitive.

+1 "Roger, over and out"

Kmar40
April 5, 2009, 11:54 PM
Why is it always some newbie who can (claim to) shoot just as well from the hip with a PGO? Now that I think about it, maybe it IS true for them.

You'd think they'd get the hint once they realize they are arguing against all the instructors and guys with extensive military or LE experience.

hogdogs
April 6, 2009, 12:10 AM
Kmar, IMHO, the standard full stock (not the english as I haven't tried one) is the most proficient for hip shooting as well as all other shooting positions...:rolleyes:
Brent

TxGun
April 6, 2009, 01:11 AM
You do not shoot a PGO shotgun "from the hip" if you're seriously trying to hit your target, unless you are at very close... almost contact distance, or unless you don't know what the hell you're doing. At any extended distance, you hold the damn thing up and aim it. It's no great trick. As easy as a full-stocked gun? Uh, no. :rolleyes:. I'd better say that again: Nope :rolleyes:. And just be sure everyone truly understands: Negative :rolleyes: (Get the mesage here?:rolleyes:). Is it as versatile as a full-stocked gun? What do you think? (Spare me, I'm tired of doing the "rolleyes" thing). But good defensive accuracy out as far as 15-20 yards if you have good technique? Yeah. It's not hard to do if you 1) aren't recoil sensitive 2) don't have a physical impairment 3) practice a little. But like the man said earlier, if you don't like it, don't use it. That's pretty simple. OTOH, don't try to tell those who know they can hit what they shoot at with a PGO gun that (in effect), "no, you really can't. I don't know you, but I don't like 'em (or I read that some "pro" (LOL) doesn't like 'em) so I know you can't be very good with one". That's ridiculous. So why have a PGO gun? OK, let's suppose you don't like handguns and...mmm, you find it a little easier to slip a PGO SG into the hotel room, covertly, in your suitcase or travel bag when on a road trip. Maybe you find it a more convenient carry on your backpacking trips. Or, maybe you like to carry it behind your truck seat because 1) you want something a little less obvious and/or 2) you find it easier to manuever inside the vehicle. Or could be you live in a small apt. and have maintenance people in and out when you're not there...and the only real good hiding place just isn't quite big enough for a full-stocked gun. Or, a dozen other reasons. (Wait...I know, "just learn to like handguns!" Or, "just learn to deal with a longer stocked gun". Uh, yeah, OK.) Or hey, maybe said PGO fan just likes the dang thing and knows how to handle it...a sin, I know, and quite impossible, of course, but maybe that's just him and he's not that impressed with some guy on the internet telling him that he just doesn't "see the light". (Look, personally I realize that PGO shotguns should be banned, because... well, majority opinion says they are downright useless...but it looks like we have a few rebels here that are just too stubborn to listen to reason!);). (That was sarcasm there...I want to be clear about that ;)).

Oh yeah, have I said I have exactly one dozen short-barreled defensive shotguns as of today...ONE of which is a PGO gun? I think I have. And that probably makes me a "PGO fanatic" in the opinion of some, LOL. I mean, c'mon...that's funny!

One last point. Make that a couple of questions....

Did anyone actually read this novel?

Just how dead does this horse have to be before we pronounce it deceased?

koondawg
April 6, 2009, 09:28 PM
I have these grips on my 870. I can shoot from normal position kinda like the you tube video only not near as close to my face. I also shoot from about halfway between my waist and shoulder using the surefire m6 laser/light for aiming. It works good for fast follow up shots. Once screwing around shootin skeet with it I tried it one handed and caught it by the forearm before it hit the ground, so i wouldnt recommend that way. Otherwise it the perfect gun for the bedside.

Chuckusaret
April 7, 2009, 09:15 AM
To become proficient with a PGO shotgun takes practice. I have a PGO Mossberg 500 and a Remington 870 with a buttstock and I have found the PGO is much better for HD because of the shorter length. I also shoot the PGO from about midway between my hip and shoulder with the same accuracy as the 870 up to 25 yards. Name of the game is practice and more practice.

Dave_Shotgun
July 25, 2009, 05:28 PM
I just bought a full-stock shotgun and I think that the stock is a little too long, so I'm thinking about cutting the stock down a little to make it more comfortable when shooting. Would that be a good idea?

hogdogs
July 25, 2009, 05:40 PM
Would that be a good idea?
CERTAINLY!!! A poor fit gun is painful as well as less accurately fired than one with proper fit. Is the stock wood or plastic? If plastic, you need to pull the butt plate, recoil pad off and look inside the usually hollow stock. You are making sure the "bosses" for butt plate/recoil pad screws are go deep enough to shorten it a bit. Another concern is that the factory butt piece may be shaped with a section that recesses into the hollow for a better fit. If so it will no longer fit the hole. The outside edges of the butt piece will also need shaved down as the butt end of the stock will be slightly smaller.
Before you cut it down, go to your local gun shop that deals in the higher end "sporting" guns as they have the know how and tools to properly pull a fit check and tell you your ideal length of pull so you don't cut too much off the stock. Too short is as bad as too long. For me it actually hurts my neck and upper back for days to fire a gun that forces me to srunch up to sight and fire.
Brent

Dave_Shotgun
July 25, 2009, 05:47 PM
Thanks for the helpful suggestions Brent. The stock is a plastic stock and it is hollow. I took off the recoil pad and saw that the stock is hollow inside and there is big bolt that looks to be holding the stock onto the gun.

hogdogs
July 25, 2009, 05:58 PM
To make a straight cut, Determine the amount you are losing and from the butt measure in and mark in MANY spots. then as you start make sure all the dots are connected before really cutting. Then I work all the way around with the saw to make sure I am cutting it true.

Was your butt pad grooved so some fit inside the hollow or is it totally flat?
Brent

Kmar40
July 25, 2009, 07:11 PM
I just bought a full-stock shotgun and I think that the stock is a little too long, so I'm thinking about cutting the stock down a little to make it more comfortable when shooting. Would that be a good idea? I think it's a great idea. A short length of pull stock loses nothing to a PGO when moving in close quarters(the buttstock is basically either beside your body in the underarm assault position or up over your shoulder if you carry muzzle down), yet allows you to shoulder the weapon and point with far superior accuracy than a PGO.

Dave_Shotgun
July 25, 2009, 09:08 PM
Was your butt pad grooved so some fit inside the hollow or is it totally flat?

The butt pad is rubbery and it fit on top of the stock. It has 2 bolts that hold it on to it. I'll probably need a smaller pad though. I'm thinking about cutting it with a hacksaw and then sanding it to make it smooth.

hogdogs
July 25, 2009, 09:24 PM
Synthetic will easily cut with the hack saw and a razor knife at an angle will shave the burrs right off.
The pad can be trimmed to fit with a real coarse sand paper (or a bench grinder but be careful it don't get a grip and suck yer fingers in the wheel) and smoothed up with a finer paper... No need to look for a smaller pad. I don't know about now-a-days but in the past, there were not much variety as far as size of pad and you always had to trim it to fit your stock if it wasn't factory pad/ factory stock.
Brent

buck9
July 25, 2009, 10:09 PM
I bought one. Thought it was cool and it was. Took it out and shot it . Hit some and missed some. It is hard to aim for me from anywhere but eye level. I put a cheap 15$ laser on the barrel and now I hit dead center on the dot at twenty five feet.

Dave_Shotgun
July 26, 2009, 02:28 PM
I bought one. Thought it was cool and it was. Took it out and shot it . Hit some and missed some. It is hard to aim for me from anywhere but eye level. I put a cheap 15$ laser on the barrel and now I hit dead center on the dot at twenty five feet.

Glad to hear that your pistol grip and laser works well on your shotgun. I think having a shortened stock will be good for control and aiming, plus i can still shoot it like a pistol grip if I feel like. Best of both worlds. :)

Dave_Shotgun
July 26, 2009, 09:31 PM
I cut the stock down with my hacksaw. I just have to grind down the butt-pad so that it fits properly.

BlackFeather
July 27, 2009, 07:31 PM
it helps for a drive by and close "whites of the eye" shooting... but uh... you probably arent in Iraq or a "gangsta"

hickok45
July 28, 2009, 10:29 AM
Here's my take:

During the actual act of firing a shotgun, the pistol grip feels okay and gives plenty of control, I guess.

Every other time I'm handling, carrying, packing, moving, cleaning, etc., I hate the darn things. I had a nice one on my Super 90, but boy did I fall in love withy that gun again when I got the pistol grip off!

Just my opinion. Everybody has to come to their own conclusions.