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View Full Version : Whats your home defense plan?


cracked91
March 10, 2009, 12:34 AM
Im kinda curious to hear some peoples home defense plans in case the boogeymen came knocking in the middle of the night. We all buy firearms to defend ours homes, but are we truly always ready to defend our homes in the blink of an eye? Lets say 3 am pounding starts on both your front and back doors. If you don't mind saying, what caliber do you use? Do you worry about overpenetration and bullets going through people and walls to hit someone else? How do you store your gun so that it is readily accessible to you but noone else? And remember you have seconds before the BG could be in your home among your loved ones.

Bauer
March 10, 2009, 12:42 AM
Because I live in an apt I have no back door. If someone were pounding on my front door all it takes is a hop up out of bed and 2 steps to where I can see the front door. My pistol is next to me at all times along with an LED light along with an extended 12rd clip but hopefully the 9rds of 180gr JHP would be enough. I suppose I would have to see if the pounding was and urgent request or an attempt at breaking in. I have only 1 roommate but I feel I need to protect her. Somewhere in there 911 is being called. Overpenetration has always been on my mind because I live in an apt but that will not ever stop me from firing to save my life or my roommates life.

Shadi Khalil
March 10, 2009, 01:41 AM
I dont really have a plan but I have a gun and flash light on my night stand and I'm a lite sleeper.

Ian0351
March 10, 2009, 03:25 AM
1. Dog hears intruders approaching the apartment and goes bonkers... she does this a couple times a month, even when it's not an emergency. I don't mind, it's a good instinct and I get to practice clearing the house.
2. 12 gauge shotgun under the bed in condition 3. If the dog doesn't scare them away the slide racking probably will.
3. Fiance calling 911, I position myself with view of all routes to the master bedroom. In my apartment this allows me to see the 2nd bedroom, hallway to front door and hallway to living room, as well as ground level window in master bedroom.
4. Intruders receive healthy dose of #7 magnum turkey load to torso and head area. Overpenetration not a concern due to low kinetic energy of individual shot pellets. By now neighbors also calling police.

I believe this setup works well, In a very hairy scenario Fiance takes the shotgun while I retrieve and load my .357, which I don't normally keep loaded as it is a poor chioce for HD in multi unit living scenarios.

All other guns are secured in a closet and unavailable to intruders.

Numerous knives stashed in all rooms of house, in event that domicile is attacked and I am not able to get to bedroom before responding. I also do not like having to leave the room and come back just to cut something...

At her insistence we practice this regularly... she f'n rocks.

Tamara
March 10, 2009, 09:25 AM
Fort up in the bedroom and call 911.

Make it clear to whoever's in the house that coming into the bedroom is a good way to get shot and that Johnny Law is en route.

Wait.

summitrt
March 10, 2009, 09:40 AM
This site has some good general information on this topic.

http://www.intermatic.com/images/news/041805%20-%20Preparation%20and%20a%20Plan.pdf

ATW525
March 10, 2009, 09:43 AM
Ideally, the plan is to hold up in the bedroom, call the police and wait. I'm currently in the process of moving and after the move .357 Magnum will be my standardized defense caliber both inside and outside of the home. It's a proven manstopper out of a revolver and launched from a carbine it's just insane.

Vanya
March 10, 2009, 10:35 AM
Fort up in the bedroom and call 911.

Make it clear to whoever's in the house that coming into the bedroom is a good way to get shot and that Johnny Law is en route.

Wait.

Exactly. I'd hope the dog would bark -- she has a great "I am a really big dog" one, when she chooses to use it -- but then, she may be looking to me to protect her... :o

The shotgun is next to the bed, full magazine, chamber empty. Call 911, rack it, and while on the phone with the Party Poopers, I'll let intruders know that they're welcome to whatever's downstairs, but the police are on the way, and I will defend myself if they come upstairs.

I won't try to "clear the house," or attempt to stop them taking stuff, but if an intruder comes upstairs, I will be "in fear of my life" and will act accordingly.

David Armstrong
March 10, 2009, 11:12 AM
Lets say 3 am pounding starts on both your front and back doors. If you don't mind saying, what caliber do you use?
None. I use my voice. If people are pounding on my doors I tell them to quit pounding on my doors and go away. If that doesn't work I tell them to go away before the police get here. If they still perists, and can manage to break down a well-secured metal door, I will probably shoot them with whatever I have handy. Don't worry about caliber, don't worry about overpenetration (which is grossly blown out of proportion, IMO). And don't worry too much about this "blink of an eye" stuff. It doesn't happen that way. If they are pounding on your door you have some time.

Brian Pfleuger
March 10, 2009, 11:19 AM
1) Call Police.
2)(possibly simultaneous) Try to Convince BG that exiting is best for continued living.
3) Shoot BG if he/she/it makes me.

cracked91
March 10, 2009, 01:37 PM
All really good plans IMO, Now I know this is far fetched but we have had enough of them in the states to bring some concern, what about a serial killer situation, or and more likely, for the females, a sexual predator. I am talking about a BG that stalks you and is going to attempt to enter your house silently in the dead of night. The most obvious solution to this is a dog and/or alarm, but lets hear some other ideas

Dwight55
March 10, 2009, 01:52 PM
No, . . . it is not IMPOSSIBLE, . . . but it approaches that, . . . getting into my house at night in a manner not allowing any sound.

Doors are shut, locked, and bolted (all 3), . . . windows are closed other than the one over my bed during some summer months, . . .

Plus, I have a very light sleeping wife, . . . and don't usually sleep too sound myself.

We're part of the call 911, wait for LEO's, . . . and after appropriate warnings, . . . anything coming into the bedroom door, . . . would be in trouble.

May God bless,
Dwight

Ian0351
March 10, 2009, 02:24 PM
in re to the "silent stalker" type:
I believer that there are those who would attempt this, but having real world experience in silent infiltration I feel confident that very few would be assailant can avoid a dog's super sensitive hearing and smell. This is why so many military installations have canine security, even in the ultra-modern 21st century; they are far more effective than defeatable electronic systems.

in re to call LE and give verbal warnings:
I live in a castle-doctrine state, and believe in this principle completely. If intruders are in my house, in the dead of night, they get shot. period. I am not taking the time to ensure they aren't selling girl scout cookies, and they certainly are not welcome to "take anything downstairs, just stay out of the bedroom". My home is my castle, and any who would defile the sanctity of it pay the ultimate price.

tdrizzle
March 10, 2009, 02:49 PM
Open the front door, shoot whomever's there, race around the house outside to catch whomever's at the back door, doubletap them as well, put drop guns in their hands if they were unarmed and drag them over the threshold so it'll look more like a home invasion than guys with a flat tire who knocked on the wrong door. Go inside. Reload. Light a smoke. Pour a shot and drink it. Check and make sure they're all dead. Call cops, wait for accolades from the public.;)

Or maybe I'd do what Tam suggests. Not as much fun, though...

doh_312
March 10, 2009, 03:07 PM
I'm with Ian, break into my house and it'll probably be your last mistake. Of course I'll check my target prior to trigger pull to ensure the stranger isn't really a fireman/police, or family member. If your a stranger your chances of walking away with out injury are small. Castle Doctrine is a pain in the rear for bad guys.

doh_312
March 10, 2009, 03:08 PM
I also have a dog as my first alert system. The dog is also trained to run to my wife and keep her in sight when the dog sees a stranger.

#18indycolts
March 10, 2009, 03:43 PM
moat, sandbags and a sniper tower.

Ian0351
March 10, 2009, 03:56 PM
That kind of talk will get you some personal attention (as the drill instructors refer to it) from the friendly moderators of this wonderful site.

Also, it makes us all look bad to ANTI trolls, especially the part about drop guns.

Realistically (unless you live in CA, NY, NJ or IL) you have no need to make guilty people look even guiltier. Also, if you get caught doing so (ie fingerprints or registered guns) you will go to prison even if the shoot was clean and the homicide justifiable (especially if you live in aforementioned states).

FWIW- hopefully the cops/firemen would be announcing themselves...In any event, they have no business breaking my door down: I am a responsible, law abiding, tax paying citizen.

#18indycolts
March 10, 2009, 04:01 PM
hopefully the cops/firemen would be announcing themselves

they do, but sometimes forced entry is warranted. The bright flashing lights outside of your window should let you know who's there. Also, they have a right to breaking down your door, its called a duty to act. I've made forced entry numerous times, and yes sometimes the homeowner isn't happy but we have to do it.

Ian0351
March 10, 2009, 04:08 PM
Of course If it's LEO or EMS I would not be shooting first asking questions later. I would open the door and be as helpful as possible...
In what kinds of situations would you use a forceful entry when someone hasn't done anything illegal? What about the 4th amendment? Warrants?

Not being snarky, genuinely curious.

#18indycolts
March 10, 2009, 04:11 PM
1 example: if you're injured and can't open a locked door, then the door and frame will be broken. Thats a promise, sorry.

armsmaster270
March 10, 2009, 04:14 PM
1. The dog knows and will tell me.
2. I reach above my head and grab the Sig226 with laser and my streamlight.
3. Wife grabs 1911 and phone while I activate car alarm with key FOB.
4. wait until entry or units arrive.
5. If units arrive put gun in holster & Identify, if BG enter I take left wife takes right. when finished wait for police

bugs
March 10, 2009, 04:23 PM
I wouldn't call it a plan, but I thought about it. Back when my 3 sons lived with us, I would take a stand at the top of the stairs. That way I am blocking entrance to all the bedrooms upstairs, my shots go down the stairs where there is no chance of hitting one of us, and if the BG shoots (and misses) the shots go into the ceiling of the bathroom behind me - not into a bedroom.

But now that the kids are all out of the house, I would probably stay in the bedroom and guard the hallway through the door, and have my wife stay back from the door out of the line of fire - dialing 911.

But I don't worry about this kind of thing very much. Our house is in the back of the neighborhood on a cul-se-sac and there is only one exit from the sub-division. If the bad guys are thinking about their get-away they will just go somewhere else where they have more options.

Arkatect
March 10, 2009, 07:12 PM
Since my dog would welcome an intruder in; I'll grab my 40 out of the nightstand call the police and shout from the top of the stairs that if I see them I will shoot them. I live in Colorado so we have the "Make my Day Law" My wife would be armed too, so I'm thinking they wouldn't have a prayer if they were were stupid enough to come into our bedroom

tdrizzle
March 10, 2009, 08:42 PM
That's why I put the wink, all. No, I wouldn't use a drop gun. No, I wouldn't run outside and shoot everyone.

People who come to my front or back door unexpected are very rare; that's what the backup cell phone in the nightstand and the Glock in the safe next to the bed are for. I have good locks, and if you get through them after I've called 911, doom on you.

Deaf Smith
March 10, 2009, 08:55 PM
All home invaders are shot on sight.
.
.
.
.
Survivors are prosecuted.

feudalson
March 10, 2009, 09:03 PM
1. ready gun... 2. wife sets off car alarm and calls 911 will lying on the bed room floor with pistol... 3. i move towards the threat and make sure the sititution doesnt reach the bedroom.. 4. handle threat in any way possible.. 5. secure surroundings and prepare for the cops arrivial.. meaning unloading my personall weapon involved and placing it in plain sight..

91slicktop
March 10, 2009, 10:01 PM
If someone makes it into the home they are being shot fatally. None of this omg i broke into your house, you shot me and now I'm paralyzed and going to sue you BS.

If they are at the door, they will be warned to leave, and if they enter that they will be shot. Call police, and wait.

scorpion_tyr
March 10, 2009, 10:42 PM
Whatever "plan" I may have will probably go right out the window since there's no telling when, where, or how it would go down. So I'll just keep it simple. Break into my home while I'm there, I'm going to assume you are there to kill me and my family. I will not let that happen. If you don't die, it is only because I am dead.

No warnings. No "less than lethal". No remorse for someone who would invade my home and my family.

Re4mer
March 11, 2009, 01:07 AM
If there was a knock I would for sure check it out using peep hole and outside light. We only have one door in and it is a special security door attached to a screen door made of a near unbreakable glass like substance so it would be hard for anybody to get in quickly if that was their chosen point of entry. The door itself is steel with steel door jams and dead bolt for added security. It would take even a strong determined group of guys about 3 or 4 minuets to get past all that. If the door does become breached the security alarm will sound giving further warning.

More likely they would try a window which would put them at a huge tactical disadvantage seeing as how my windows are about 4-5 feet up from ground level and basement windows are solid glass block.

Either way if they managed to get into the house both my wife and I would have already been able to call 911, round up the baby, and grab the firearms off the night stand, while taking cover in our master bedroom.

Re4mer
March 11, 2009, 01:16 AM
Lets say 3 am pounding starts on both your front and back doors.

You know that in all likelihood the situation would look more like this. A nice looking young man or women would come to your front door asking for help with a broken down car and if they can use the phone. You or your wife opens the door to hand them the phone and a buddy comes out from the side and rushes in.

Or you are getting out your car in the driveway or garage when a fellow who has been casing your house for the past week rushes you.

Typically a smart criminal will strike when you are in a state of vulnerability or transition; seldom do they knock.

Shadi Khalil
March 11, 2009, 01:26 AM
That's why I put the wink, all. No, I wouldn't use a drop gun. No, I wouldn't run outside and shoot everyone.


If I wrote something like that I would delete it. Just out of respect for everyone on the forum. It was lame and makes us all look like pychos.

Firepower!
March 11, 2009, 01:28 AM
M4 with me. 7Aks and 2Mp5s with folks around the house.

Housezealot
March 11, 2009, 12:10 PM
I actually ponder this quite a bit, I worry about over penetration more than anything, I have two small children and am very worried about shooting through a wall, I have no very large open area's in my house so I have my mossberg 500 loaded with bird shot. I figure at close range that will be effective but won't have much threat through a wall, Does any one have any knowlage of bird shot as a defensive round at real close range (15 feet or less) this might sound like a silly question but the idea of rounds ripping through my Kids wall is horrifing to me.

David Armstrong
March 11, 2009, 12:30 PM
I am talking about a BG that stalks you and is going to attempt to enter your house silently in the dead of night.
If a BG can silently enter you house in the dead of the night, having a gun is the least of your problems. You need to focus on that access problem before anything else, IMO.
BTW, serial killers rarely break into the house. They tend to enter under a ruse of some type, when they enter.

David Armstrong
March 11, 2009, 12:34 PM
If intruders are in my house, in the dead of night, they get shot. period.
Don't shoot just because you can, shoot because you need to. Generally works out better that way, saves you lots of time and money.

Careby
March 11, 2009, 12:37 PM
Does any one have any knowlage of bird shot as a defensive round at real close range (15 feet or less) this might sound like a silly question but the idea of rounds ripping through my Kids wall is horrifing to me.
Maybe this will help: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Creature
March 11, 2009, 12:38 PM
Don't shoot just because you can, shoot because you need to

Are you going to interview the intruder/s in your home at 02:30 to find out what their true motivation/intentions are?

Housezealot
March 11, 2009, 12:45 PM
Careby, That was very helpful, talk about answering my exact question,
Birdshot is coming out tonight. thanks a lot.

Creature
March 11, 2009, 12:56 PM
Did you miss this part of the write up regarding birdshot on page two?:

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

IDAHO83501
March 11, 2009, 01:02 PM
My plan is simple, I grab my 12 ga. Winchester Defender, my wife grabs her Beretta, I go investigate, I shoot anyone in my home that isn't suppose to be there, that doesn't leave as soon as I confront them, I shoot to kill, my wife shoots anyone who comes into our bedroom unless it is me.

Brian Pfleuger
March 11, 2009, 01:03 PM
Birdshot is coming out tonight. thanks a lot.

Birdshot is better than most any handgun, buckshot is MUCH better. Few things make for better home defense than a 12ga loaded with about any type of buck shot. If it were me, it would be #00 or #000

Creature
March 11, 2009, 01:06 PM
I seriously doubt I will be sending any rounds or shot "outbound" until my wife and kid are BEHIND me. And I wont be shooting any birdshot.

Housezealot
March 11, 2009, 01:28 PM
Creature,I meant bird shot is coming out of the GUN tonight, and as for having wife and kids safe directly behind me that would be ideal and you obviosly wouldn't shoot towards a family member on purpose no matter how many walls were in between you, but I feel better about firing light shot in the house than a hot .357 round thats going to go clear through the wall and out the siding.

Ian0351
March 11, 2009, 01:32 PM
FWIW: I do consider intruders in my home in the middle of the night a "need to shoot" situation. The time for talking is while they are outside obeying the rules of polite society. Also, IMO after midnight is too late to be asking strangers for gas or tire assistance: call AAA, or better yet, a cop:rolleyes:

Creature
March 11, 2009, 02:10 PM
I knew that! :o

David Armstrong
March 11, 2009, 02:20 PM
Are you going to interview the intruder/s in your home at 02:30 to find out what their true motivation/intentions are?
No, why? What would that do for the situation? You seem to ask very strange questions that make no sense.

David Armstrong
March 11, 2009, 02:24 PM
FWIW: I do consider intruders in my home in the middle of the night a "need to shoot" situation.
Again, why? What can be solved by shooting them that cannot be solved by getting them to leave the home? If you holler at them and they leave, it is done. If you shoot them you will have to deal with the police, probably need to hire an attorney, certainly have to pay to clean up your house, etc. If you holler at them and they don't leave, you can still shoot them.

Creature
March 11, 2009, 02:34 PM
And your logic seems very strange to me.

What can be solved by shooting them that cannot be solved by getting them to leave the home?

They do it once, they will likely do it again.

A home invader is vermin, plain and simple. Why should I shout? I will never give a home invader the benefit of the doubt...he gave up any chance at one the moment he set foot into my occupied home in the middle of the night. Nor am I willing to give away my position by shouting.

Tennessee Gentleman
March 11, 2009, 03:11 PM
If you holler at them and they leave, it is done.

Or if they are armed they know where you are and shoot you. I like this better:
Fort up in the bedroom and call 911.
Make it clear to whoever's in the house that coming into the bedroom is a good way to get shot and that Johnny Law is en route.
Wait.

Ian0351
March 11, 2009, 04:29 PM
In that (and this differs from the original scenario in which intruders are still outside the home) as soon as the criminals have somehow forced their way into my home I am in fear of my life and those I am obligated to protect. The only audible warning that will be issued is me making my weapon ready to prosecute interlopers.
What's truly sad is that in our 'civilized' society there is even a question of whether or not you have the right to defend yourself and your property. As has also been said by creature: criminals are vermin. Given the chance to lessen their numbers while obeying the laws of my locale and my personal code, I will gladly take the opportunity to make my neighborhood safer.

hogdogs
March 11, 2009, 04:31 PM
UMMMM... Shoot early... SHOOT OFTEN!!!
Brent

Deet
March 11, 2009, 04:41 PM
Ditto

David Armstrong
March 11, 2009, 04:50 PM
And your logic seems very strange to me.
Given that you seem to think that interviewing a BG when he breaks into your home is somehow appropriate, I'll not be getting into a strangeness debate with you.
They do it once, they will likely do it again.
really? How likely? Perhaps you could share with us some research that has been done on home burglars who return after running away? Or are you just sort of making this stuff up as you go?
A home invader is vermin, plain and simple. Why should I shout?
Because it is easier, cheaper, less dangerous, etc. than getting into a gunfight. Do you also find fault with Tamara's suggestion to holler at them? Or Idaho's idea to confront them and not shoot unless they don't leave? Or Vanya? Or Peet? Is there something in some of you folks that you just want to kill somebody, even if there is no need and it will make your life worse, not better? Listen to yourselves, you sound exactly like what the HCI crowd says gunowners are like.

Flapjack23
March 11, 2009, 04:57 PM
Glock 22 and Surefire at top of stairs; wife gather kids up, call 911, and hide with Kahr PM40

Creature
March 11, 2009, 05:02 PM
They do it once, they will likely do it again.
really? How likely? Perhaps you could share with us some research that has been done on home burglars who return after running away? Or are you just sort of making this stuff up as you go?

Oh...thats right. Where you're from, home invaders start out doing their thing without working their way up to it. And they do it once only to never to do it again. Every home invader deserves a second chance, right? Go sell it somewhere else, david.

Because it is easier, cheaper, less dangerous, etc. than getting into a gunfight.
Really?...got some statistical data to prove that claim?

As far as I'm concerned, I wont gamble with my family's lives. Ever! If a intruder breaks into my home and it is after dark, he had his one "chance" at making it out alive when he debated whether or not to break in...provided the thought even entered his mind. Once that decision was made to enter my home while me and my family are still in it, he forfeited his option to leave on his own terms. personally I dont give a hoot what you or the HCI crowd thinks...unless they are willing to stand guard over my home 24/7, they can second guess my God given right to protect my home and kin all they want.

freakintoguns
March 11, 2009, 05:12 PM
simply put: someone breaks into my house, they better hope to god me, or my roommate is not home. i have a .45 2 12 gauges and soon a AR-15, roomie has a 7mm bolt action, not nessarly a great SD gun, but hey it will get the job done in spades. you have 2 options if you break into my house leave on your feet in handcuffs, or leave on a stretcher. i do not tolerate that type of crime. i am also going to assume you are a scumbucket intent on not only robbing my house, but causing bodily harm to me, my roommate, and my mother.

cracked91
March 11, 2009, 05:20 PM
I can kind of respect both opinions on this one. My family is the most important thing to me, so if I even thought that there was any possibility of them being in danger, I would put half a clip into the guy. On the other hand, if the intruder was unarmed, and as soon as he saw my gun he put his hands up, I morally don't think I would be able to shoot him. I have heard of situations where an intruder comes back to a house, especially if the house owner is the one who put them in jail too. But if I was holding an intruder at gunpoint waiting for the police to arrive, and he started telling me he was going to come back when he got out of prison and threatening my family (this actually happened to a friend of my dads, he was more forgiving than me though), I think I would not have any issue with ending his pitiful existence rather than taking my chances that he was bluffing

skydiver3346
March 11, 2009, 05:22 PM
Hopefully, my little Jack Russell will give us a heads up that an intruder has entererd or is attempting to enter our residence.
If I feel there is or have verified there is a problem, call 911 and alert intruders with my voice that police are on the way (and I am armed). They will then know that they no longer have the element of surprise and may leave on their own (hopefully).
Me and my wife get on the other side of the bed and take aim at the center of the doorway with my Wilson Combat .45 and an extremely bright Sure-Fire light (ready to shine on them). Also, have a loaded Remington 870 with #1 buckshot right beside me as well.
After all that, if the intruder comes in our bedroom anyway, he is done for....... You must be deliberate and not hesitate when the time actually comes to act. We actually practice this from time to time to make sure we know exactly what to do in a situation like this. There is no one else living in our home, so whoever comes through the door in the middle of the night, is the bad guy.

David Armstrong
March 11, 2009, 05:31 PM
Oh...thats right. Where you're from, home invaders start out doing their thing without working their way up to it. And they do it once only to never to do it again. Every home invader deserves a second chance, right? Go sell it somewhere else, david.
Once again you might want to try dealing with what was said instead of making up these silly things. And I will take by that response you have nothing to support your claim of burglars returning after they have been run off the first time by a gun wielding home owner.
Really?...got some statistical data to prove that claim?
Some things don't need statistical data. If someone runs away and you don't have to do anything, it is easier. See, you haven't had to run around, you haven't had to shoot at them, and so on. It is cheaper. If they go away it doesn't cost you any more. If you shoot them it costs the price of ammo, house clean-up and perhaps repair, probable time off of work and legal fees, and possible lawsuit fees. As for less dangerous, well, if they go away, no danger! If they stay, varying levels of danger. Very simple when you take a minute and think about it.
As far as I'm concerned, I wont gamble with my family's lives.
Nonsense. You gamble with their lives every day. And certainly getting into a gunfight with them in the house is a gamble.
Ever! If a intruder breaks into my home and it is after dark, he had his one "chance" at making it out alive when he debated whether or not to break in
So your idea is to let the BG dictate a pre-determined response rather than have you try to determine what is best for you and your family based on the situation at that time. Interesting.

armsmaster270
March 11, 2009, 05:34 PM
I like the setting off the car alarm with the key fob I think I'll add that one to my list.

Creature
March 11, 2009, 05:54 PM
And I will take by that response you have nothing to support your claim of burglars returning after they have been run off the first time by a gun wielding home owner.

I wasn't claiming that they would be returning to my home. I was referring to the likelihood that he/they would move on to a neighbor's home which might be an easier target.

Seeing how you are using your line-by-line back and forth, its obvious to me that you're in typical form. You have your strategy all planned out..and I have mine.

Tennessee Gentleman
March 11, 2009, 06:09 PM
Nonsense. You gamble with their lives every day.

Nonsense, gambling equates to recklessness and nobody does that every day. Also exposing your location to a possible armed intruder does not seem to very smart.

However, this seems to go along with the "always comply" credo espoused by some even when one has the advantage on a dangerous criminal.

David Armstrong
March 11, 2009, 07:27 PM
I wasn't claiming that they would be returning to my home. I was referring to the likelihood that he/they would move on to a neighbor's home which might be an easier target.
Hmmm. Let's see now. The question was "What can be solved by shooting them that cannot be solved by getting them to leave the home?", to which you responded "They do it once, they will likely do it again." But now instead of doing it again, you are now saying you were talking about them invading somebody else's house. So instead of them doing it again, you actually meant them doing something different. I see. Nice try. :rolleyes:
Seeing how you are using your line-by-line back and forth, its obvious to me that you're in typical form.
Yes, I find the line-by-line analysis and response to be clearer and more direct. That way folks can't get away with making things up, dodging issues, and so on. Makes it real clear.

freakintoguns
March 11, 2009, 07:31 PM
as i understood creature's (i think) statemnet: "they will do it again." he meant they will contuine to do home invasions. crime much like everything else, is a game of odds. as the number of gun owners has dwindled and the number of drug users has increased, so has the number of home invasion style robberies. will they return to your home? probably not, will they return to a neighbors home? probably.

Deet
March 11, 2009, 07:34 PM
I like creatures strategy better.

Tenn Gentleman- I agree its not a gamble its about protecting ones' family. Some people here will never get that, they just like to stir up trouble. I hope their gamble of talking their way out of a bad situation pays off for them and their familys' sake.

Storm52
March 11, 2009, 08:32 PM
I've read a couple great new ideas, one being the key fob for car alarms. I had not thought of that but now keep both on night stand for the truck parked outside and the car in garage. To get back to the original question of this thread:
Big old weimaraner, who now thinks my 2 year old grandson is his master, goes to door and barks.....loudly before door knocks because the motion detector flood lights on the driveway and corner facing front door, covering the rear door and garage door have come on and chimed...
Hearing dog barking and noting the time, I flip switch, next to night stand to turn on all outside floodlights which light up every outside wall of my home as well as a goodly area of yard...
I click on intercom and make inquiry...not satisfied with answers, I dial 911.
If intruder leaves, I'll make report with LE that show up. IF intruder mistakenly decides to pursue unlawful interest, I would then push the panic button on my security system, which sounds a siren inside and out and has flashing red lights mounted to the soffit. I hate testing this thing because it drives the dog nuts and he knows I was the one that caused it...
If all of the above doesn't dissuade the visitor, then I grab the old 870 Remington loaded with #6 birdshot twice and then 00 buck and wait.

Tamara
March 11, 2009, 08:46 PM
I have no intention of "complying" with doodly-squat.

Some salient points that I have determined apply to me, however.

1) I am not a ninja, nor do I leap out of helicopters with a knife in my teeth for a living. I have, however, read enough Sooper-Tactical literature to know that the defender has the advantage. Plus I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

2) I do not have anything in this house more valuable than my butt, and so I'm keeping it where it has the least chance of getting shot off.

3) I'm not worried about "giving away my position", because talking to the 911 operator on the telephone is going to do that. I will be explaining in a loud, clear tone the following things: That I have an intruder in my home. That I am armed. That I am in fear for my life. I will keep that phone line open until the cavalry arrives. Unless I then say or do something monumentally boneheaded, that 911 tape will be good evidence, especially if I do wind up having to spark the guy.

4) If he advances into the bedroom through the closed door in the face of all that, he's obviously not there to swap cookie recipes, and I will respond accordingly.

5) I am not going to go and play hide-and-go-seek through the darkened house with what may just be a cat burgler, or may be Jack the Ripper.

6) If he splits, I win.


Y'all's circumstances may dictate different responses.

Tennessee Gentleman
March 11, 2009, 09:21 PM
I'm not worried about "giving away my position",

Tamara, neither would I, if in a good defensible place in my house with loved ones safe and my gun ready. However, David is I think oversimplifying the issue by saying we should just "holler" at them to make them go away.

Some on here are big believers in complying with BGs. I differ.

ritepath
March 11, 2009, 09:30 PM
I have a p89 ready to go beside the bed, my sub 2k lays out at night on my dresser, beside the LED 120L flashlight. We have two mini-wieners that don't sleep all that well it would seem. They may be worthless a attack dogs but they do a much better job than the cat at letting us know something is going on they don't like. I'm thinking of replacing the sub2k with a 12g saiga when I can afford one.

doh_312
March 11, 2009, 10:22 PM
I am with Creature. I'd rather not assume my hollering is going to scare away a BG. I'll assume the worst: BG here to kill me, wife and dog. Plan for best:BG runs away, cops catch him 20 mins later with no futher incidents. Let me clarify I'll not be going to fing BG. He has the advantage so I'm diggin' in and waiting to see my tax money in action with those boys in blue. If I see anyone who is not a friend or emergency personel, BANG BANG goes the shotgun. No questions, you are in my house, you are here to kill me and thank goodness for Make My Day Law.

Minus one scum of the Earth.
Though I'll feel bad for taking a life.

Wrothgar
March 11, 2009, 10:34 PM
Right now we are in a tiny 1 bedroom apt with concrete walls - one door into the bedroom with a 1942 mosin nagant with a bayonet next to the bed (unloaded) and a .380 with hollow points in it. We live in what I consider to be a very secure apartment setup - the building is a square, the only way in is on the ground floor, and the doors require a key/loudly breaking glass. Our city, however, is one of the least safe cities in my state and, as I live around a college, lots of people from said crime-ridden city like to break in to take advantage of rich college kids' stuff. My wife is hot, and I'm not letting anything happen to her. However, they can take the TV from the living room for all I care, but I'm not coming after them.

Tucker 1371
March 11, 2009, 10:44 PM
Well since I'm a freshman in college and I live in a communist apartment complex that wouln't let me have my guns, my current plan is to grab my KaBar and be very fast.

BuckHammer
March 12, 2009, 12:29 AM
I'll probably call the police, then sit at the top of my steps (in order to guard bedrooms, not looking for trouble), and wait for police to arrive. I like the car alarm trick, I would do that if I would remember, but there's no telling now, since I'm in a relaxed situation right now, and a home invasion isn't my idea of a relaxed situation. I'd much rather have the police put their lives on the line clearing my farm then me or a member of my family, since we don't get paid for that kind of thing. Also, at the top of my steps, I can hide a significant portion of my body behind a doorway right there.

Dabull
March 12, 2009, 10:33 AM
I live in a communist apartment complex that wouln't let me have my guns

Years back, my apartment complex put a "no guns" article in their newsletter. Suddenly, several notices appeared on the mailbox bulletin boards: "Attention thieves: This apartment complex does not permit tenants to keep firearms in their apartments. Do you feel as safe as we do?"

The complex took down the signs and retracted its policy.

Rifleman 173
March 12, 2009, 10:44 AM
Engage the bad guys until I am satisfied that none of them are a threat any more to me or my family. Simple as that. Mozambique them until I'm happy and safe.

pax
March 12, 2009, 10:50 AM
I just deleted a couple of personal remarks bordering on personal attacks. Knock it off now, please. Confine your remarks to the topic or don't post.

pax

Vanya
March 12, 2009, 11:59 AM
Some on here are big believers in complying with BGs. I differ.

TG, I'm sort of mystified by this. I haven't noticed anyone advocating compliance, unless you're referring to those of us who'll be holed up in the bedroom, willing to concede the laptop and the silverware rather than start shooting. If I have to shoot in a home defense situation, I'll be shooting to stop a threat to my person, and I will shoot until the threat ends. I'm not going to try to "apprehend" anyone or to "persuade" them to leave by pointing a gun at them. If I'm in my home and things have reached the "point the gun" stage, I expect to be using the gun. That said, I do not ever want to take a life over money or possessions -- mine or anyone else's. So, in the situation that's been raised -- pounding on/breaking down my door -- I will be upstairs, where I can best defend myself, making a lot of noise on the phone to the police, and to quote Tamara, "If he splits, I win."

What David Armstrong originally wrote was this:
If people are pounding on my doors I tell them to quit pounding on my doors and go away. If that doesn't work I tell them to go away before the police get here. If they still perists, and can manage to break down a well-secured metal door, I will probably shoot them with whatever I have handy.

Seems pretty reasonable to me. As I said in my first post, I'd hope the dog would bark in response to the pounding -- and I'm 99% sure she would -- but I'll be on the phone to the police before I start yelling at intruders myself. I think all David started out to say was that he's not gonna start shooting just because someone is banging on his door. Works for me, too.

Tennessee Gentleman
March 12, 2009, 01:13 PM
Vanya,

I will PM you.

David Armstrong
March 12, 2009, 05:01 PM
I agree its not a gamble its about protecting ones' family.
But the there are choices in how to do that, and each choice is a gamble. Those who don't understand that, or try to deny it, probably don't understand the dynamics of gunfights, IMO. If you choose Option 1, there are certain things that can happen. You gamble which ones. If you choose Option 2, there are certain things that can happen. You gamble which ones. One can modify what the gamble may be, and one can impact the odds of the gamble, but it will always be a gamble.
I hope their gamble of talking their way out of a bad situation pays off for them and their familys' sake.
If it does, great. But if it doesn't, then you can move on to the next gamble. That is the beauty of trying the easy way first. You can always ratchet things up as needed. Once you start shooting it is hard to take the bullets back.

David Armstrong
March 12, 2009, 05:07 PM
6) If he splits, I win.
That pretty much sums it all up. And if he doesn't split you haven't lost anything, you are right where you were before.

I'd rather not assume my hollering is going to scare away a BG.
You should probably never assume much of anything. But the point is that if hollering doesn't work, as mentioned above you haven't lost anything. You still have your position of control, you can still get into a gunfight if you want to, etc.

Tennessee Gentleman
March 12, 2009, 05:14 PM
If it does, great. But if it doesn't, then you can move on to the next gamble. That is the beauty of trying the easy way first.

The problem with that line of thought is that you may not have the oppertunity to "progress" through the "gambles". I think a better way to put it is try the non-lethal/violent way if you have the time and opportunity.

Furthermore, I think that the idea that we live our lives one "gamble" to the next to be without merit. As pax once said and well so: "It's not the odds it's the stakes."

David Armstrong
March 12, 2009, 05:21 PM
Seems pretty reasonable to me.
There is the problem, IMO. Some seem to feel a reaasonable response is somehow un-American or some such. Glenn refers to it as being ego-driven (correct me if I'm wrong on that, Glenn). Some of us feel that getting into a shootout over some property is rather silly, some feel that they would rather start a gunfight than give up two dollars. My postion is and always has been fairly simple, and I think reasonable. Pick a response that causes you the least amount of harm physically, mentally, emotionally and financially; and use the best information possible when picking that response. Some consider that compliance. Other consider it good strategy.
I think all David started out to say was that he's not gonna start shooting just because someone is banging on his door.
David always suggests to not start shooting until you need to, as opposed to some who seem to think you should shoot any and every time you get a chance to do so. Some think that is compliance. And of course some think that if you choose compliance as an initial strategy it means you can't ever stop complying, as we have seen on some of the posts here. "Go away, Bad Guy" doesn't mean "if you don't go away you can have the run of the place and do anything you want because I won't do anything else." "Go away, Bad Guy" means "If you don't go away I will do my best to make you wish you had gone away, so take this chance and make it easier on both of us."

Glenn E. Meyer
March 12, 2009, 05:56 PM
My view is a coldly rational view of establishing the best outcome for me and my family.

In a potentially lethal force situation, the best outcome is coming out without significant harm to us.

In this calculation, I am not concerned with emotions such as a sense of territorial violation. I understand such and have felt it when I was once burgled. However, the property is trivial as compare to the risk of harm, the practical expense of dealing with a lethal shooting in the house, the potential psychological harm and social negative outcomes. I also am not into potential reciprocal altruism to prevent another burglary elsewhere. This is different from saving someone being attacked. That has a different moral context.

I am sure that if I get hurt in an interaction with a burglar - no neighbor or internet participant will contribute one red cent to me.

Thus, I will use lethal force if needed to prevent grievous bodily harm. If I can use various measures to cause the BG to flee - I'll do it. In fact, I've trained in FOF house exercises to hunker down and use command voice to get them to leave.

I note for those who haven't tried it, that when folks went out to engage the bad guys and save their TV, the BGs ambushed them and landed them on their buttocks. Those who hunkered down - with the appropriate long arms - saved the day.

We have sufficient layers of warning and noise such that I will be convinced that someone continuing to advance is a physical threat and then we have the tools for that. Fighting from a defensive position is quite superior in most cases.

Now we see folks arguing that they are predator killers, taking the offensive in the house and the like. They won't let the BG get away. As Dave mentioned, some of that, IMHO, comes from a sense of personal violation and not the rational. I don't think less of you if you don't get yourself killed for your TV but instead hunkered down and called the cops.

However, for some - they don't want to admit that. I have an acquaintance who brags how he clears his house. No training, crappy shot - but he's clearing. I told him that if I were in his house - he probably would be ambushed and dead. Annoyed him.

Think about the overall goal of your home defense plan - is to get the bad guy or is it that you don't get hurt? Your ego doesn't bleed real blood, your body does.

So if you decide to fight - be sure you understand what your goal is.

1. Save self and family from harm
2. Feel good as a warrior
3. Save the neighbors from potential crime.

Why are these your goal? One thing I always say which causes a firestorm, if you choose the altruistic statement - is that really the motive? Theories of altruism suggest that saving the neighbors for some is not that you care about the neighbors but you want their adulation for your heroic effort. Is that really important? If you were truly altruistic, would you actually chip in to support the family of a neighbor killed in a firefight with a burglar. I mean not just giving his family a pound cake and tuna casserole but contributing them for life. I doubt that happens.

Hollering so they go away, if you are in position to do so - makes a lot of sense - if you are truly honest about your decision processes. If you need to fight, then you do. You can reduce the need by not taking foolish ninja risks.

We are armed. The police have been called. Get out
We are armed. The police have been called. Get out.

By the way, have the phone line open to the law and the alarm sounding.

Brian Pfleuger
March 12, 2009, 06:32 PM
That pretty well nails it Glenn.

Close the thread.;):D

Tennessee Gentleman
March 12, 2009, 06:32 PM
My view is a coldly rational view of establishing the best outcome for me and my family. In a potentially lethal force situation, the best outcome is coming out without significant harm to us.

Glenn, I agree with that statement. My motivation is that same as yours but my concern is if confronted with violence, and I am armed, I choose the non-violent method (or comply) first then will I have another option later? If not then the violent one must be used first. Do you see my point?

In the OP the scenario is pounding on an (I assume) locked door. Ok, you can holler because there is a barrier between you and the BG that keeps you safe for the moment. Once that door is breached time and options get smaller. I think anyone who reads or watches SD stuff out there will learn that moving through a house to engage bad guys is not too smart. Unless of course you are retrieving loved ones. It just makes sense and you can do your own contrived FoF to see that.

I also agree with your precept about concern for property. I was not a Joe Horn supporter.

So, to wrap up my thoughts; use nonviolent options or avoidance if possible as long as you surrender no advantage such as distance, firearm etc AND have the time and opportunity to do so.

David Armstrong
March 12, 2009, 07:39 PM
Hollering so they go away, if you are in position to do so - makes a lot of sense - if you are truly honest about your decision processes.
I think that is the key, Glenn...many are not honest about the decision process, or they don't even have a decision process. We see some that argue that one course of action is a gamble, but that another course is not a gamble. Of course, everything is a gamble, but some are not honest about that. Some try to present the fluid situation of the fight as a one-dimensional event, not being honest about the fact that it is an on-going event with multiple variables that are changing on a regular basis. As you point out, some try to claim altruistic motivations, but they are not honest about the altruism, they base their decision on hopes of adulation. And sadly, I think some are honest in stating they want to shoot just because they can. Honesty, and a rational view. Pretty good ideas that many reject.

Creature
March 12, 2009, 09:00 PM
Lets be honest...in my home, there isnt going to be a "gunfight". A so called "gunfight" implies an exchange of gun fire back and forth. My aim will be to gather my family into a safe location....and to locate and neutralize the threat at the first opportunity...which ever happens first.

Your smugness about who is being honest and thoughtful and who isnt based on what a homeowner is prepared to do in the event of a home invasion is at best just plain arrogant. Your line of thinking doesn't work for me. I have decided that I will follow another course of action. That doesn't make me dishonest or even thoughtless.

In fact, I have thought long and hard about this. My home is rather small...too small to just hole up and holler warnings to intruders. My home is so small that, at the furthest, an intruder once they are inside will be within 25 feet of me anywhere in my home. Because of the close proximity to me and my family, I will actively repel intruders at every opportunity with every tool at my disposal. I wont just hole up and and holler at them...hoping that they go away to possibly hit someone else's home.

BuckHammer
March 12, 2009, 10:14 PM
I just deleted a couple of personal remarks bordering on personal attacks. Knock it off now, please. Confine your remarks to the topic or don't post.
It was just a playful jab. Oh well, I respect your decision. It was fairly off-topic, anyway.

Ian0351
March 13, 2009, 02:23 AM
1. If BGs were in my house, I would not begin "clearing the house", I would stay in my most defensible position. When I clear the house in the middle of the night it is to put my fiance at ease when the dog/alarm goes off, or a drill... in either case I am reasonably sure there is no current threat.
2. I will acknowledge that I am motivated by territorial violation, and given a shot at someone in my home (not the original topic, but what we have gotten into on pp.2-3) I would take it rather than offer a chance to flee and thusly 'gambling' on the sensibilities of the criminal dirt bag.
3. I'm not going to shoot a perp in the back for stealing my laptop, but I'm not just going to let him take it as a prize for not cleaning me out of the room I am in.
4. I am concerned about community safety, particularly my community, and would step up to help a neighbor either in the moment of the assault or in the aftermath. Whether it be crashing on my couch while the blood gets professionally removed from your carpet or testifying for you in court, I was raised to believe that being a neighbor is about more than living on the same street.

skydiver3346
March 13, 2009, 07:27 AM
"Engage the bad guys until I am satisfied that none of them are a threat any more to me or my family. Simple as that. Mozambique them until I'm happy and safe."

Does that mean to go looking for them in a dark house at night, not knowing where they may be lurking? Would it not be best to wait in your bedroom where you can hold a defensive position (on your terms) and be prepared to shoot them when and if they enter your space? Seems to me that may be safer for you, your wife, etc. I guess the only time I may leave my "protected space" in a situation like this is if I had children in another part of the house. Would definitely go make sure they are safe, no matter what.

Steviewonder1
March 13, 2009, 01:02 PM
If a door is breached, I will wait for them in the bedroom behind a defense wall partition that was built just for that. It will stop anything out to a 454 Magnum. Wait for the bedroom door to open which will shine two spotlights on the door so I can have a clear view of what I am about to shoot. In Georgia we no longer have to Flee. We can stand our ground and Shoot till there is no threat, even if they turn and flee.

David Armstrong
March 13, 2009, 01:05 PM
Lets be honest...in my home, there isnt going to be a "gunfight".
Honestly, you don't know that. Anybody whose plan is based on "I can never fail and everything will go just like I want it to" has a poor plan, IMO, and isn't being honest in the decision process.
Your smugness about who is being honest and thoughtful and who isnt based on what a homeowner is prepared to do in the event of a home invasion is at best just plain arrogant.
As opposed to the arrogance of "in my home there isn't going to be a gunfight"?
I wont just hole up and and holler at them...hoping that they go away to possibly hit someone else's home.
So, your choice is to start a gunfight with the BGs within 25' of your family, hoping that you can stop all the BGs before they harm you and yours. Personally, I'm hoping I don't have a gunfight. Doesn't mean I'm not ready for one, but honestly now, isn't it better not to have BGs shooting at you and your family than to have them shooting at you and your family?

Rifleman 173
March 13, 2009, 02:51 PM
Does that mean to go looking for them in a dark house at night, not knowing where they may be lurking?

No, you use common sense. If I am home alone, I let the bad guys come to me and walk into my ambush zone. If I have a kid somewhere else in the house, I might cautiously move towards the kid engaging any felons I come across. You also make contingency plans in advance of trouble. Sort of like asking yourself, "What if..."

I also plan ahead with more than one means of communications. I have a regular house phone but we also have cell phones too. Where I differ with many people is that I have memorized the phone numbers to the local police departments (city, sheriff and state police) so if I have trouble I dial directly to them with either the cell phone or the house phone. We had one incident where a person called 9-1-1 and got an emergency operator in another state. So while the person called for an ambulance meant for a wreck in Bellevue, Illinois, the operator dispatched the ambulance in Bellevue, Iowa, about 2 hour drive away from the original caller. Come to find out that different cell phone companies have different agreements with different emergency services operator systems throughout the nation. So, if you're in Illinois your 9-1-1 cell phone operator might be in Iowa, Indiana or even Wisconsin depending on the contract for the service agreed to by the provider and cell phone company. That's why I memorized the local phone numbers for the police.

So, would I hunt a bad guy in my own house? Yeah, probably but only because I learned how to carefully do that many years ago.

Creature
March 13, 2009, 03:15 PM
Honestly, you don't know that. Anybody whose plan is based on "I can never fail and everything will go just like I want it to" has a poor plan, IMO, and isn't being honest in the decision process.

Obviously you have never been in my house.

As opposed to the arrogance of "in my home there isn't going to be a gunfight"?

I'd call it confidence and preparation. I intend on maintaining the advantage of surprise. Failing that, I am confident I can mitigate that loss by the advantage of knowledge of the terrain. Failing all these, I will certainly try to gain the initiative by...wait for it...engaging first and with prejudice.

So, your choice is to start a gunfight with the BGs within 25' of your family, hoping that you can stop all the BGs before they harm you and yours. Personally, I'm hoping I don't have a gunfight. Doesn't mean I'm not ready for one, but honestly now, isn't it better not to have BGs shooting at you and your family than to have them shooting at you and your family?

Again...you missed my point. There will likely be no "exchange" of gunfire. I fully intend on engaging first before any hostiles can return fire. And if there is an exchange, I have already made preparations (imagine that) to afford my family a certain and fair amount of protection.

Surprise, knowledge of the terrain, ferocity of attack...all of these things are force multipliers that must be exploited from the outset to have any measurable effect. But the initiative must be maintained from the beginning by the defender.

Sure...a good defense is the best offense, but in my experience, a good offense is the best defense.

SquidWarrior
March 13, 2009, 04:58 PM
under my night stand I have a small biometric handgun safe(excelent investment, I got mine for 150$ on ebay), I have my Springfield 1911A1 loaded with 185 Grain Speer Gold Dot and a Streamlight Scorpion flashlight. My first priority is my wife next to me and infant daughter in the room about twelve feet down the hall. Our plan involves me silently opening the bedroom door and getting the wife into the babys room. I then take up a defensive position on the staircase and call 911. With dispatch still on the line I announce to the suspected intruder that I am armed and the police are in route, and I will use deadly force if forced to do so. Seldom is it prudent to attempt to clear the house, unless you have to move across alot of comon area to secure your children; in which case you should move quickly with weapon at the close-body ready and FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER. If you encounter the intruder at this time, order him to stand fast, do not engage unless the perp has intent and capability of disarming or engaging you.

PhoenixConflagration
March 13, 2009, 05:00 PM
One advantage to living in a crummy apartment is that there's nowhere for a BG to be that I can't get to them. The front door's in line with the bedroom door and it's poorly hung so it can't open without making a lot of noise. The only real plan is that my wife takes her Bersa CC and moves so there's a triangular cross fire at the bedroom door. Anyone who busts in the door (not counting identified first responders of course) has forfeited their right to live. They do not get my stuff, they do not pass go.

David Armstrong
March 13, 2009, 05:25 PM
Obviously you have never been in my house.

Don't need to be. I would suggest that anybody who claims they will have 100% success 100% of the time without even knowing what the situation will be is being somewhat unrealistic in their assessment.
I'd call it confidence and preparation.
I'd call it wishful thinking.
Again...you missed my point. There will likely be no "exchange" of gunfire.
Oh, I got your point just fine. As I pointed out, for your plan to work you have to be 100% right 100% of the time. You'll excuse me if doubt the perfection you are trying to present. I've seen way too many real fights where one little thing went wrong and it created all sorts of problems. Personally I think it more than a little questionable to base a plan on shooting it out with an undetermined number of badguys by assuming none of them will shoot back and where each of them will be slain without being able to fight back.

McBrideGuns
March 13, 2009, 06:58 PM
I would have to agree with scorpion_tyr on page 2 if you come into my house uninvited I have to asume you are there to harm me or my family. I am not going to let that happen. I will warn you once to leave, if you dont that's your problem.

Only S&W and Me
March 13, 2009, 09:40 PM
For me there will be no warning after the break-in. The intruder has made this decision to chance his life. First opportunity at a sight and the trigger is pulled...period. I would think typically this invasion would happen quickly while sleeping with minimal time to react...only enough time to retrieve your firearm and take a sleep dazed shot.

Creature
March 14, 2009, 08:42 AM
I would suggest that anybody who claims they will have 100% success 100% of the time without even knowing what the situation will be is being somewhat unrealistic in their assessment.

I never claimed that.


I'd call it wishful thinking.

Call it whatever you like.

Personally I think it more than a little questionable to base a plan on shooting it out with an undetermined number of badguys by assuming none of them will shoot back and where each of them will be slain without being able to fight back.

Your plan could come to the same ends if your warnings dont have the affect you are hoping for...so it looks like you would be in the same boat. But now you're back into a corner by your own volition and your position is known by all those BG before any shots are exchanged. I dont consider that a very good position to be in.

pax
March 14, 2009, 11:57 AM
Deleted an off-topic post -- which was a borderline personal attack -- and a response to that off-topic post.

The Tactics and Training forum on TFL exists for the purpose of discussing the tactics and training that might help people survive criminal encounters. If you want to talk about something else, take it elsewhere 'cause it doesn't belong here. If you want to call people names, do it elsewhere 'cause that just isn't allowed on TFL.

pax

WayneinMaine
March 14, 2009, 12:02 PM
This is a good topic with lots of differing opinions. I think the best gun/round combination is the one you're most likely to be effective with. If you can't find the safety, aim it quickly, and hit a moving target in the dark, then it's probably not for you. If you are not proficient with your weapon, the odds are very good that it will be taken from you and maybe used against you. People who break into a house they know is occupied are extremely dangerous. 12 guage birdshot has killed lions at a couple of feet (Peter Hathaway Capstick, "Death in the Dark Continent"), but is probably useless at 20 feet for home defense purposes. Buckshot has failed to kill deer at 25 yards pretty often. The best way to win a battle is before it starts. A dog is the most reliable alarm there is, and is the best way to make sure you get to your gun before the BG does. Ultimately, it is best if you don't get into a gunfight at all. Many posters assume they are better armed, better shots, and better tacticians than whomever has broken in, but the fact is you have no idea who an intruder might be. We studied the Dade County shootout where 8 heavily armed, well trained, and prepared FBI agents cornered 2 bank robbery suspects, who turned out to be very well trained. One a former Army Ranger. 2 FBI agents were killed, and all but 1 were wounded. The 2 bad guys died, but when you break even with 8 against 2, it shows nothing is reliable. (this shootout worth reading about if you think you'd like to get into a gunfight in your home with your wife and children present) You don't want to break even, you want a flawless victory. So dont be a target. Take precautions to prevent being chosen as a victim, using lighting, obvious security measures, etc. Mentally examine "firing lanes" in your home, anything big enough to stop a bad guy is big enough to go through interior walls, so don't shoot towards anyone important. Period. Call the police at your earliest opportunity. Find a good defensive position (Established beforehand) and hope like heck you don't have to do what you've hopefully prepared for anyway. Probably the knock on the door is for help, at least in our area. You can call a wrecker/ambulance/police car with the door closed, so there's no need to open it. If I recall correctly, one bad guy in the Dade County shootout was killed by the 12th bullet that hit him. How many hits can you take?

Creature
March 14, 2009, 12:47 PM
We studied the Dade County shootout where 8 heavily armed, well trained, and prepared FBI agents cornered 2 bank robbery suspects, who turned out to be very well trained. One a former Army Ranger. 2 FBI agents were killed, and all but 1 were wounded. The 2 bad guys died, but when you break even with 8 against 2, it shows nothing is reliable. (this shootout worth reading about if you think you'd like to get into a gunfight in your home with your wife and children present)

The Miami shootout has nearly nothing in common with a "typical" home invasion.

jmiller676
March 14, 2009, 02:00 PM
I think he was making the point that no matter how trained you think you are there is still a chance your plan could go terribly wrong because you don't know who is on the other end of that gun. He also stated that other security measures need to be taken as in lighting and other security measures which could mean an alarm system, a dog, good deadbolts on your door, a solid piece of wood or a metal rod to block the sliding door. I think he was just trying to point out instead of clearing your house (like the FBI did which in their defense thy had no choice) it may be better to sit tight all bunkered down and be prepared to defend yourself and wait for the cops to arrive. I know it may be hard to let someone ransack your house, because even for me to say this I would want to go clearing my house on my terms, but it could also prove to be safer for you and your family. All I think WayneinMaine is saying is expect the unexpected.

Now if you're a cop or ex-military then by all means grab those duals and go for it;)

David Armstrong
March 14, 2009, 04:13 PM
I never claimed that.
It certainly appears that way. You have made the claim, as I understand it, that in your home there isn't going to be a gunfight because you are so good that the bad guy won't be able to exchange gunfire with you, no matter how many of them there are. If you wish to change that claim, or I have misunderstood it, clarification would be appreciated.
Your plan could come to the same ends if your warnings dont have the affect you are hoping for....
Yes, it could. But the difference is that in my plan those ends would be a last resort when everything else had failed rather than a virtually guaranteed start of the process.
But now you're back into a corner by your own volition and your position is known by all those BG before any shots are exchanged. I dont consider that a very good position to be in.
I'm holed up in a strong defensive position that forces the BGs to come to me. They don't know where I am other than someplace in one part of the house or a room. They now have to enter a fatal funnel of my choice, where I have the advantage of cover and concealement. That is a pretty good position, one that is recommended by virtually everyone AFAIK. Perhaps you could indicate where there is a problem with it?

David Armstrong
March 14, 2009, 04:15 PM
Ultimately, it is best if you don't get into a gunfight at all. Many posters assume they are better armed, better shots, and better tacticians than whomever has broken in, but the fact is you have no idea who an intruder might be.
Excellent point, one that many seem to forget. An important maxim I was taught is to plan that your opponent is at least as capable as you are.

Creature
March 14, 2009, 04:50 PM
It certainly appears that way. You have made the claim, as I understand it, that in your home there isn't going to be a gunfight because you are so good that the bad guy won't be able to exchange gunfire with you, no matter how many of them there are. If you wish to change that claim, or I have misunderstood it, clarification would be appreciated.

No, I never made any claim. I stated my intentions. Big difference. Specifically, I said:

Again...you missed my point. There will likely be no "exchange" of gunfire. I fully intend on engaging first before any hostiles can return fire. And if there is an exchange, I have already made preparations (imagine that) to afford my family a certain and fair amount of protection.

What is a strong defensive position? Hiding behind your closet door? There are very few interior spaces in a modern construction home (which is primarily sheet rock and pine lumber) that offers any real or even partial cover. Perhaps you should peruse the Box O' Truth website. I have seen up close and personal the results of what happens when some one took cover behind something that actually offered only concealment. It wasn't pretty.

But, maybe you're lucky and have stone or concrete construction that offers real cover protection nearby to your bedroom. In my home, there is little to no cover. Only concealment. And even that is limited due to the size of my home. My home is a slab home. There isn't a pebble-sized stone or even a concrete breeze block anywhere in it.

Because I have limited concealment, I will not give away my position by shouting out any warnings. And because I have no cover, I certainly INTEND to enage first.

Creature
March 14, 2009, 07:08 PM
btw, you may find this thread somewhat interesting....

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=344971

David Armstrong
March 14, 2009, 07:20 PM
No, I never made any claim. I stated my intentions. Big difference. Specifically, I said...
Actually, THIS is what you said: Lets be honest...in my home, there isnt going to be a "gunfight". A so called "gunfight" implies an exchange of gun fire back and forth. That sure sounds like a claim, not an intention.
What is a strong defensive position?
Depends on a number of things. Where I am, where they are, who else might be in the house, etc. can all come into play for that.
Perhaps you should peruse the Box O' Truth website. I have seen up close and personal the results of what happens when some one took cover behind something that actually offered only concealment. It wasn't pretty.
Thanks for the help, but having been in a few situations myself, and having investigated lots more, I'm quite familiar with what constitutes a strong position.
In my home, there is little to no cover.
That is actually fairly easy to fix, if you would like to do so.
Because I have limited concealment, I will not give away my position by shouting out any warnings. And because I have no cover, I certainly INTEND to enage first.
Too each their own, but personally I would suggest that starting a gunfight before you know if you need to do so, when your family is within 25' of the hostile(s) and without any cover seems to be a recipe for disaster.

WayneinMaine
March 15, 2009, 08:37 AM
My point was that you don't know the number, skill levels, or intentions of the bad guy/guys. Unless you've been under fire you don't know you either. The dade county shootout illustrates that no outcome is certain, so it is wise to first avoid the problem, but also to stack the odds in you favor as much as possible. (I'm not faulting the FBI, they were doing their jobs. If they brought their wives and kids along for the fun I'd feel differently) What if the bg is wearing body armor? No one here mentioned that. What if the BG's weapon will penetrate your cover? What if there are 3 bgs? What if you draw down on the bg and it's your teenage son? What if you shoot a masked bg you didn't absolutely have to, and it's your son? Your daughter and her boyfriend? Most people are burgled by people they know, and drug addicted family members are a good bet. I respect an individuals right to protect their family and home and am not saying not to use force if necessary. I'm just saying no plan survives intial contact with the enemy. You won't know everything that's happened until days afterword (hopefully), and you don't get to do it over.

Creature
March 15, 2009, 08:46 AM
Actually, THIS is what you said: Lets be honest...in my home, there isnt going to be a "gunfight". A so called "gunfight" implies an exchange of gun fire back and forth. That sure sounds like a claim, not an intention.

Now you're just nitpicking'...because I qualified that statement in my next post.

Depends on a number of things. Where I am, where they are, who else might be in the house, etc. can all come into play for that.

All things that you likely wont know. Just like what they are armed with and how many of them you are up against. I prefer to keep them off balance by attacking first instead of letting them gather strength and attacking en masse.

That is actually fairly easy to fix, if you would like to do so.
I am all ears, so to speak.

BuckHammer
March 15, 2009, 10:35 AM
That is actually fairly easy to fix, if you would like to do so.I am all ears, so to speak.Tons of sandbags in your house is an easy solution :D. Just Kidding.

I'm actually interested to hear what can be added to a home to enhance the cover available. Not concealment, actual cover. I'm probably missing something obvious (besides sandbags :D), but right now I can't think of many normal household items that are bulletproof.

I'm actually interested in this, what kind of measures are we talking about?

justinicus
March 15, 2009, 11:09 AM
right now I can't think of many normal household items that are bulletproof.

I'm actually interested in this, what kind of measures are we talking about?

Abnormal household items? :)

I've been wondering the same thing, as soon as I read "cover and concealment" in regards to the bedroom. The poster doesn't seem the type who would believe the old myth that a bed provides cover. You could always get one of those "ballistic blankets" I suppose. Or back your bedroom door and walls with 1" armor plate (thought many of us would find that causes as much increased danger from the bedroom's cohabitant as it reduces from the bedroom's invaders).

Thoughts, folks? How can one reasonably harden one's sanctuary? Assuming that pouring concrete and installing a couple tons of steel is beyond our means, any suggestions besides the aforementioned ballistic blanket?

David Armstrong
March 15, 2009, 11:27 AM
Now you're just nitpicking'...because I qualified that statement in my next post.
Your next post seems to just reinforces the claim. It says, "Again...you missed my point. There will likely be no "exchange" of gunfire. I fully intend on engaging first before any hostiles can return fire."
All things that you likely wont know
Actually, I'm quite likely to know where I am, and where other friends/family are. And I would suggest I'm far more likely to be able to figure out how many of them there are if I wait for them to come to me in a predetermined position of my choice where I can staack the advantages my way.
I prefer to keep them off balance by attacking first instead of letting them gather strength and attacking en masse.
I'm still not following how that reduces the chance of a gunfight that puts your family at risk when they have no cover and the BG is within 25' of them.
I am all ears, so to speak.
Some simple, easy, and inexpensive options: A good bookshelf, with a fairly small number of books, will stop virtually any handgun round, many rifle rounds, and all shotgun rounds except slugs. Large planters, filled with dirt, will soak up lots of rounds. Use the plastic/fiberglass types, not the actual clay and ceramic things. A cedar chest (hope chest/foot locker style) packed with blankets will stop a lot, and slow most others down to where they aren't much of a threat. Don't know about the new LCD TVs, but the old models are pretty good, depending on the size. If it is your own house, get rid of those silly hollow-core doors, and get a solid wood/metal sandwiched door.

Glenn E. Meyer
March 15, 2009, 12:07 PM
Can someone tell me in home burglary situations, what percent of burglars continue with a tactically sound and intense attack on an unseen homeowner who has sounded an alarm, called out that he or she was armed and called the police?

The vast percentage of DGUs have reported to be deterrent?

If the BGs continue to engage you after such a warning - perhaps they are ready for you when your PJ clad body comes racking the shotgun down the stairs or around the corner through an easily seen fatal funnel? :D

As a FOG, I was clearing my 'domicile' in an exercise and an old LEO was yelling at me to get out of the fatal funnel. I had stopped because the training prop went belly up and we had to reset it. But the point was well taken. In a house, there are quite a few fatal funnels. How are you going to move through them by yourself against opposition.

You know, you can buy OC grenades. Get a gas mask or two for the family and lob them down the hall.

Creature
March 15, 2009, 12:25 PM
Some simple, easy, and inexpensive options: A good bookshelf, with a fairly small number of books, will stop virtually any handgun round, many rifle rounds, and all shotgun rounds except slugs.

Having shot at a number of wet phone books, vehicles and building construction with various caliber hand guns and rifles myself, I seriously doubt that claim. Even with small caliber rounds. The 9mm has an amazing capacity at penetration through building construction and other solid materials. The same goes for .223/5.56 or better. As far as 00buck goes, I have seen buckshot move seemingly stationary objects far enough out of the way for the second and third shots to penetrate further and unhindered...especially at distances of less than 15 feet. A collection of books like one might find in a book case would no doubt be a temporary barrier lasting only moments...unless you own a dozen sets of wet Encyclopedia Britannicas.

Large planters, filled with dirt, will soak up lots of rounds. Use the plastic/fiberglass types, not the actual clay and ceramic things.

Planters? That will offer virtually no cover. Unless you have a wall of them more than just a few feet high and more than one or two deep. That one actually made me laugh out loud. I have seen 9mm penetrate hardened stucco walls a foot thick.


A cedar chest (hope chest/foot locker style) packed with blankets will stop a lot, and slow most others down to where they aren't much of a threat.

It sure needs to be an awfully big chest to offer any kind of cover for my wife and daughter to hide behind. Most chest are no more than a few feet long by a couple of feet high. And what about oblique shots that are not perfectly center mass of the chest?...areas where, because of the angles, there is little to no wood and blankets to offer any kind of resistance?

Don't know about the new LCD TVs, but the old models are pretty good, depending on the size. If it is your own house, get rid of those silly hollow-core doors, and get a solid wood/metal sandwiched door.

Now you're really stretching it. TV's offer NO cover after one or two rounds. I know...I have shot plenty in my life time. Even those big old "console" TV's from the late 1960's and 1970's where easily shot through and through by 22LR.

And solid core wood/metal doors offer next to no protection either. I have installed enough doors and lock sets to know that even metal security doors are sheet metal with foam filling. Solid wood interior doors are no more than two inches thick...easily penetrated by a 9mm. And unless the door is pinned and the door frame is reinforced, solid core doors are just as easy to get open as hollow core doors. Trust me on this.

Everything you have suggested will, at best, only offer partial cover...and for not very long. Far less than you might think.

As a FOG, I was clearing my 'domicile' in an exercise and an old LEO was yelling at me to get out of the fatal funnel. I had stopped because the training prop went belly up and we had to reset it. But the point was well taken. In a house, there are quite a few fatal funnels. How are you going to move through them by yourself against opposition.

I know all about "funnels". And to answer you question, by using my knowledge of my own home to move quickly and quietly. As you already experienced, for a BG, unknown terrain is difficult to navigate against a determined defender who knows every shadow and every creak of the floor boards.

pax
March 15, 2009, 12:36 PM
Creature ~

Not wet phone books. Dry ones. Try it.

pax

Creature
March 15, 2009, 12:41 PM
I can see it now...bookshelves full of dry phone books in bedrooms all across America.

http://alloveralbany.com/images/phone_books_at_union.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3175/2767476227_f5d6d61b13.jpg?v=0

pax
March 15, 2009, 01:41 PM
Creature,

Last summer a group of friends and I shot at a wide collection of "stuff" on the range, and took notes.

In no case did any handgun bullet (calibers ranging from .380 through .45ACP), whether hollowpoint or FMJ, penetrate more than 12 inches through books. Most of them stopped in the middle of the 3rd or beginning of the 4th book, say 5 inches. Of course, we actually hit the books and most bookcases have some airspace. Plan accordingly.

We also found that almost nothing went through a pile of clothing in a dresser drawer. Firing straight down at a folded pile of clothing, nothing left a mark on the bottom of the drawer. Firing through the front of the dresser, nothing went more than a foot in (most dressers are 2 feet deep). Of course, these were full drawers; YMMV.

You don't have to like the message, or the messenger. But if you don't know what you're talking about, listening is always an option. Or getting out there & trying it for yourself.

pax

Glenn E. Meyer
March 15, 2009, 01:53 PM
Maybe if one lives in the Adams or Munster House, you can silently navigate through the shadows and or creaks.

I find it very hard to imagine that the homeowner on the move is at any advantage against a determined attacker who can take reasonable cover or concealment in the dark in your house.

I know my house well and I would be at a tremendous disadvantage trying to move through it against anyone with a modicum of thought.

The only reason to go to the attackers is if you have to save the loved ones.

The scenario is predicted on dedicated attackers that wouldn't flee from a warning. I think they could take you with a little bit of common sense and concealment.

I've been reading about the street battles in retaking Manila from the Japanese. There is a reason the US forces threw in grenades and satchel charges. Moving into a position where the opponent was hunkered down was usually bad.

Creature
March 15, 2009, 02:12 PM
You don't have to like the message, or the messenger. But if you don't know what you're talking about, listening is always an option. Or getting out there & trying it for yourself.

That's sounds to me a lot like you're saying I dont know what I am talking about.

Well, you would be wrong there. I have been to various professional training facilities on the east coast where we tested out all sorts of calibers and weapons on various building constructions.

Included in one of the sessions were tests inside a breeze block and lumber/sheet rock construction building where common household objects were placed: dressers, mattresses, a refrigerator and other appliances....and a 5ft tall bookcase full of magazines, newspapers and books. It was as complete a "load out" as we were willing to clean up. This also included various type of calibers and weapons against fully equipped vehicles drained of fluids.

The dressers were no match to either the 223 or the 9mm...but then again, we didnt cram them full of clothing. But based on my observations, I would be wearing a new set of socks and underwear everyday for a year to make a difference. As for the book cases full of books, the books in the spot that we specifically aimed multiple shots at didnt last more than a few rounds before they became so disturbed that a few more shots was all it took to penetrate through and through and the wall behind it.

Oh, and BTW, I was paid to attend this training.

pax
March 15, 2009, 02:17 PM
As for the book cases full of books, the books in the spot that we specifically aimed multiple shots at ...

Creature ~

Okay.

Now slow it down a little bit. How many shots into exactly the same aimpoint would it take to defeat a "bullet proof" vest?

And did your tests show that someone behind a full bookcase might be just a tiny, itsy-bitsy bit, safer than someone behind a bare sheetrock wall?

What I'm getting at is that there's no cover in the world that doesn't degrade when bullets start flying, or that will stand up to multiple repeated hits in the exact same spot. And that someone who has set up a place in their home with a bookcase or a fully loaded dresser is going to be miles safer than someone who relies on flimsy sheetrock alone.

pax

Glenn E. Meyer
March 15, 2009, 02:59 PM
After discussion, we think that we have expressed our points of view with vim and vigour. Continued discussion really isn't adding anything at this point.

Thank you for contributions.

Glenn