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View Full Version : Which O/U Single Trigger all-around Shotgun for hunting?


Para Bellum
March 7, 2009, 03:30 PM
I'm getting into shotgun hunting and clayshooting.
All I have is 35 year old TOZ 34EP with a double trigger.

The Problem is that my hands are small and my index-finger is very short. That's great for precision rifle shooting but a true handycap with double-triggers that are exactly 1 inch apart.

So, I want an o/u all-around shotgun (12/70) that fits me better. What would you PROs recommend?

If you want to "classify me" I shoot Glocks, a 7x57 Mauser 98 converted into a hunting rifle in 1961 and a Steyr AUG. I don't care about looks, just the function counts.

a7mmnut
March 7, 2009, 03:34 PM
Without a doubt, the CZ, preferrably a Woodcock. -7-

ActivShootr
March 7, 2009, 03:38 PM
I also like CZ. They are well made, nice looking, and above all affordable :).

6x6pinz
March 7, 2009, 04:16 PM
for a hunting shotgun it is hard to beat the value of a Spartan SPR310. Not the cleanest finish but for a hunting gun finish is not as important as one on the wall. I use the SPR310's in 12 and 410 with great success. We have had trouble when duck hunting with the Ruger red label o/u. The ruger did not like the high brass, loved low brass and makes an excellent trap gun, and it tended to rust much more around the water than the SPR's.

BigJimP
March 7, 2009, 04:38 PM
Fit is the #1 thing on a shotgun - so it hits where you look. So you have to know what your dimension requirements are for length of pull, drop at comb - if any, drop at heel - and if you don't know, you need to shoot some guns at a pattern board to tell. Shotguns do not come in one size fits all - the dimensions are different.

In general - a universally good fit - can be best obtained by a comb that is parallel to the rib ( not angled like on most pump guns ). To get into a parallel comb gun - look at Browning XS Skeet or the XS Special models - with or without adjustable combs. I'd recommend the adjustable comb models - so the point of impact can be moved up or down / and left or right. New - they are in the $ 2,750 price range / but there are a few used ones around.

The newer Brownings have an adjustable trigger on them so you can move them back a little / or you may have to go to a different recoil pad - to decrease the length of pull a little. With smaller hands - you may or may not like a gun with a "palm swell" on it.

Most of the guns suggested previously - have no adjustment on them / so I wouldn't recommend them, but they are less expensive. Often in shotguns - you will get more adjustability when you spend a little more money - and better steel, more durability, etc. Browning and Beretta in terms of Over Unders give you a lot of gun for your money. These days, under $ 1,500 in terms of Over Unders there isn't much out there on the market worth owning long term.

Any shotgun can be made to fit - cheaply, by adding a stick on pad on the comb to change the angle of the comb for under $ 50. Custom stocks are pretty expensive but you can go that route.

My personal choice for an all around gun - for Skeet, Sporting Clays and hunting - is Browning XS Skeet model ( 12 or 20ga ) with the adjustable comb - and I prefer the 30" barrels. Its a very well balanced gun for quick games like Skeet or Quail hunting / but versatile enough for any type of hunting or clay target games. I'd recommend a 12ga / you can pick a shell at 7/8 oz and make it balistically perform like a 20ga. I've seen a few used around for about $ 2,250 or so in my area.

6x6pinz
March 7, 2009, 06:14 PM
BigJimP has brought up at least one of the most important aspects when looking for a new shotgun or any gun for that matter. Fit should be very high on your list. The Browning XS is a nice shotgun but if memory serves me correctly only available in 2 3/4' chambering. This brings up another point to consider and that would be use. 2 3/4 only shotugns would be all but worthless for hunting duck or geese but very acceptable if you only hunt smaller birds, dove, quail, pheasant ... Price range would be another very important consideration.

oneounceload
March 7, 2009, 07:47 PM
Try to rent some of the better guns - Berettas, Brownings, (both Jap and Belgian), Cesar Guerini, and even SKB....They are all very good, but they "feel" differently.......

Maromero
March 7, 2009, 08:07 PM
I suggest you try a Beretta 687 Silver Pigeon Grade 20g. That's my to go shotgun for hunting. It does not mean she will be to your liking but I find it lovely to dance with her.

olddrum1
March 8, 2009, 02:22 AM
I think that you are seeing a lot of different guns being offered up here. Sometimes it helps to give a dollar amount on the investment that you want to make.

.300 Weatherby Mag
March 8, 2009, 03:55 AM
Need a dollar amount...

Rmac58
March 8, 2009, 06:17 AM
If you get a chance, try a Baikal, well made, lower cost.

zippy13
March 8, 2009, 10:54 AM
Perhaps you can be a little more specific: What kind of budget do you have in mind? Do you want a new gun or one that has most of the misses already shot out of it? Will your hunting be humping your gun all day after upland birds, or in the comfort of a duck blind -- will you hunt deer in a state that requires a shotgun? Will the gun be used regularly for recreational clay shooting or just as a tune-up before hunting season? Like rifles and handguns, shotguns are specialized for their intended use -- your wanting an O/U narrows the field.

Para Bellum
March 8, 2009, 01:12 PM
Thanks so far, Folks!

Need a dollar amount...
Doesn't really matter. I can affort all shotguns I know. Still, I don't care about looks and don't want to spend more than the functionality needs. In handguns (that field I understand), that means: Glock.

.300 Weatherby Mag
March 8, 2009, 03:28 PM
Perazzi MX12
Beretta 687 EELL
Weatherby Athena D'Italia Grade V

BigJimP
March 8, 2009, 05:23 PM
Forget a Beretta or Brownings - if you're looking for a Glock equivalent ...

Para Bellum
March 9, 2009, 06:14 AM
Forget a Beretta or Brownings - if you're looking for a Glock equivalent ...
...so what should I look for then?

BigJimP
March 9, 2009, 11:36 AM
I was being sarcastic - sorry ...( I'm not a Glock fan ..).

In terms of semi-auto handguns, I would compare most Berettas or Brownings to an upper grade production handgun from Kimber. A Kimber isn't a high level custom made or custom fit gun - like an Ed Brown, or Wilson Combat 1911 - but Kimber makes a decent production gun for the money at around $ 1,500.

Beretta and Browning give you a lot of gun for the money - durable, strong, decent triggers and under $3,000. Higher end production shotguns would be Perazzi or Blazer in my view ( mostly at $ 7500 - $10,000 ). High end custom shotguns are Kolar, Krieghoff at $ $20,000 plus .

A Browning XS Skeet or XS Special are very good guns for the money / with lots of adjustability.

Para Bellum
March 9, 2009, 04:30 PM
:) I understand.
The Glock-Thing is because I carry 24/7. Otherwise I'd own STIs or Kimbers.

So, since I don't intend to carry an o/u shotgun inside the waistband, I think we can agree on a quality standard in this section of the forum. ;)

I was at an expert's shop today and "tested" a lot of shotguns. The one that felt best was a Browning B525 Sporter:
http://www.browning-int.com/productsmedia/browning/big-B525SPORTER12M.jpg
It came into position naturally, felt very good, handles steel shot, is a magnum and they give 10yrs warranty. I assume, I can't go wrong with that one, could I?

Thanks a lot, Folks!

BigJimP
March 9, 2009, 04:38 PM
The 525 is a nice looking gun - the only issue with it is a lack of adjustbiltiy for point of impact. But there is nothing wrong mechanically with the 525 series / or any of the Browning Citori lineup of guns.

The 525 - and the newer 625 series - all have a lot of drop at the comb.

That steep angle on the comb ( at least on me ) caused the meat in my face to push up against my cheek bone / causing a lot of abuse from recoil. Ideally a shotgun should move rearward - and recoil under that cheek bone .... so for me, the 525 had way too much drop. I thought it was perfect in the store / but it was not a good gun for me. I sold the 525 a few years ago and went with the XS Skeet models ( in 12, 20, 28ga and .410 ) as my primary guns. Like I said before - the parallel comb guns - allow adjustability / and for me, they recoil and slide under my cheek bone.

The other issue on the 525 is the oil finish / if you shoot in a lot of rain - the finish doesn't keep the elements out too well - and the finish will get "muddy". It can be refinished - with a more traditional Browning verathate finish - and its a good winter project.

I don't carry 24/7 but my 1911 of choice is Wilson Combat - CQB or Protector in 5" - and you're right, they are a little heavy - but I like the CQB on my hip when I do carry.

Para Bellum
March 10, 2009, 07:54 AM
...I got it wrong yesterday. The gun I liked the most in the shot is a 425 Citori. Does your critique of the 525 also apply to the 425?

Thanks!

BigJimP
March 10, 2009, 10:33 AM
There is nothing wrong mechanically in the 325, 425, 525 or 625 series.

I don't remember the amount of drop the 325 had vs the 425, etc - but as I recall they were all similar / and since they all have angled, or field combs - then even with an adj comb - you can't adjust the point of impact.

An adjustable comb on a parallel comb gun - lets you adjust the point of impact up or down. On an angled, or field comb, an adjustable comb doesn't change the angle relative to the rib - so to me, it has no purpose on an angled, or field comb stocked gun. On a parallel comb gun - if you shoot in a T shirt in the summer / or a heavy coat in the winter - even though that causes your face to move up or back on the comb maybe 3/4" or so - since it is parallel to the rib - then your sight picture does not change. So my sight picture on my gun stays the same year round.

On an angled, or field comb, gun - as you move up or back on the comb - and you level out the rib - it causes the gun's point of impact to move significantly up or down by seasons. As a result, with an angled comb gun - you have to get a "shooting outfit" that you can use in all seasons - so your head contacts the comb at exactly the right spot - so the gun hits where you look. Remember a 1/2" up or down at the end of the muzzle - might result in a shot being 3 or 4 feet high or low - at 35 yards - not what you want...

In my experience, parallel comb guns - will fit most everybody - and they're adjustable. Angled or field combs - are not.

Each of the series was discontinued - as the sucessor came out. I bought my 525 - when they were pretty new - in about 1998 ?? I think the 325 came out in early 90's , the 425 I think only lasted about 3 years - maybe 1994-1997. The 625 has been out about 2 years now.

If you're only going to buy one shotgun - I'd seriously recommend a gun with a parallel comb. As a pure Trap gun - I like the Browning XT with 32" barrels - at about 10 lbs. For an overall gun - hunting, sporting clays or skeet - I like the Browning XS Skeet with 30" barrels ( they also make a 28" ) - and that's personal preference. I find the XS Skeet model a very nimble gun - swings quickly - in a 12ga its about 8 1/2 lbs - so its quick, but not whippy like a 7 1/2 lb gun would be to me ( but I'm 6' 5" and 290 lbs ) so you should look at whatever fits you and what feels good with the balance point between your hands, etc. Trap is a game with less barrel movement - than hunting, sporting clays or skeet - so a 10lb gun is a little too clumsy to me in a faster game.

I am seeing a few of the XS Skeet used. There is also the XS Special - marketed by Browning as a sporting clays gun / but they tend to put plain wood on them / and a satin finish - not as attractive a gun as the XS Skeet in my opinion. Any big Browning dealer should have the XS Skeet in stock in 12 or 20ga with or without the adj comb option.

BigJimP
March 10, 2009, 10:40 AM
Looking at the Browning web site - Citori lineup - they have all the models I'm suggesting / it might help before you go to a shop and see what suits you best.

A lot of gun shops - don't really have a good command of the different target guns from Browning - especially if they don't stock all the models. All shops sell a lot of angled or field comb guns - and most sales counter guys tend to think that is all there is / and a lot of the customers focus on the look of the wood and cost vs adjustability. They don't sell too many target guns in the $2,500 - $3,000 price range.

But if you have a relationship with a shop where some of the sales folks are clay target shooters - they should be able to walk you thru all of these models and options.

TheDingy
March 10, 2009, 03:37 PM
I know a lot of people that shot a lot of different O/U's for something that is going to be a only gun I would do a good one and stay away from these cheap ones that I have seen recommended here. Don't look at price, but quality.

I would shortlist these.

Beretta - Any of the 68x series guns
Krieghoff - Any of their O/U's
Perazzi - Any of their O/U's

Browning while some may say they are good in a 12ga my friends have had nothing but trouble as they went up in rounds fired.

Also I would buy a 12ga, get a 20ga set of barrels or a set of Briley tubes in 20ga. Also get a lot of choke tubes for both 12ga and 20ga.

Lastly I would get the gun properly fitted to me by a professional this is the biggest step that I would do.

Maromero
March 10, 2009, 03:41 PM
Krieghoff - Any of their O/U's
Perazzi - Any of their O/U's

Either one of these two. Beretta is one notch below in this category.

BigJimP
March 10, 2009, 06:53 PM
I know a lot of guys that have 50,000 + shells thru Brownings with no trouble - regardless of gague / especially the XS Skeet or XT models - and while I don't really keep track - my XS Skeet models in 12, 20 are easily at 50,000 with no problems.

Personally, I think Beretta is also a decent gun - a little lighter in general - and maybe a little weaker in terms of the barrel to receiver connection. But I consider Beretta and Browning virtually equivalent in terms on a long term gun.

All gun mfg's have some issues from time to time - maybe I've been lucky on my Brownings / maybe I take better care of my guns than some ....

olddrum1
March 11, 2009, 01:16 AM
Might I now ask what kind of clay's and what kind of hunting you will be doing with this shotgun? Can I assume that you have a smaller frame?

BigJimP
March 11, 2009, 12:24 PM
TheDingy - you said:

"Browning while some may say they are good in a 12ga my friends have had nothing but trouble as they went up in rounds fired."

What specific kinds of problems did your friends say they had / with which specific models ?

BigJimP
March 11, 2009, 01:00 PM
A couple of things:

Choke Tubes:

To make my guns versatile, I do carry a fishing tackle - 6 slot plastic box in my vest - with chokes. I carry 2 Skeet chokes, 2 Improved Cyclinder, 2 Modified, 1 Improved Modified and 1 Full / so 2 chokes are in the gun / 6 in the plastic box. I prefer extended chokes - Browning midas or diana grade are good chokes, Briley and others make good chokes.

Gun Fit:

In my experience having a pro fit your gun is a mistake. First of all, if you buy a gun with a parallel comb - you can adjust it yourself - and taking it to the pattern board, a couple hours of your time and a box of new shells is all you'll need. If you are prone to lose or gain weight ( I do ) - then a parallel adjustable comb gun can be adjusted from time to time as you gain or lose weight.

"Pros" come with all different levels of experience / too many of them are "wood butchers" - but some are really qualified to help you. In general, if you are looking for a "Pro" to help you - I would prefer a certified and credible shooting coach - someone like Bender/Shima, Bobby Fowler Jr, etc and it needs to be someone that shares your philosophy on technique ( like shooting sustained lead or whatever you want to do ) - and let your coach recommend a gunsmith to fit your gun. At some of the bigger tournaments in your area - there may be traveling gunsmiths, gun fitters - and some are great - but be really careful.

Not that you should believe me or anyone else in this forum either ....we're all anonymous / and it isn't like any of us has shot with you for 20 or 30 hours and knows what you truly need or don't need.

But gunfitting / and stock work in general is an art - and it will take some time and cost you some money if it is to be done right. There are a lot of good custom stockmakers out there - but I had a guy with a big reputation destroy the stocks on 2 of my O/U's a few years ago / and it still aggravates me. He paid to restock one of the 2 guns / the other one never really worked out ......it was a 6 month nightmare and every time I touched those 2 guns it aggravated me, so I sold them both - and it cost me at least $ 5,000 ( plus the aggravation ) when it was all said and done.

That's why I push people toward a factory installed adjustable comb in a parallel comb gun / for virtually 100% of their shotgunning - if they can afford it. Right now the Browning XS Skeet with adj comb lists for $ 3,139 - but I still says its a great value for an all around gun.

Para Bellum
March 11, 2009, 01:17 PM
I understand. Thanks a lot BigJimP, you saved me from buying an old non-adjustable gun standing around in the shop for quite some years.
So - now understanding the necessity of a parallel adjustable comp – I get more interested in the Cingergy models like this one:
Cynergy Euro Sporting Composite with Adjustable Comb:

http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/images/013296l.jpg

Seems like a good choice, doesn't it?

To answer the other questions: I am 5’10.5 (179cm), 172# (78kg) and muscular (Kajaking, Martial Arts, Heavy Bag Training) and have particularily small hands.
The gun should be a one-fits-all shotgun. Primariy use will be skeet or similar for fun. Secondary use will be hunting fox, hare, rabbit, pheasant and duck.

Shorthair
March 11, 2009, 02:21 PM
I'd head off to the gun store, and have your gun clerk lay every one that you've researched and considered on the counter. Then, one by one, pick them up, mount them, get a feel for them, then pick the one that fits you best. Do this all in one sitting. Go through all of them, then by a process of elimination work your way through them until you settle on the one that feels like its alive in your hands and fits your face and shoulder.
We are about the same physically, though I have larger hands. I believe most commercial production shotguns are pretty much made for our build.
I had my mind set on a Ruger Red Label 20 until I actually picked one up. Felt like a dead stick. Settled on my Citori White Lightning after going through the above process. Good luck!

Para Bellum
March 11, 2009, 03:24 PM
I'd head off to the gun store, and have your gun clerk lay every one that you've researched and considered on the counter. Then, one by one, pick them up, mount them, get a feel for them, then pick the one that fits you best. Do this all in one sitting. Go through all of them, then by a process of elimination work your way through them until you settle on the one that feels like its alive in your hands and fits your face and shoulder.
That's exactly what I did. Made me end up with a Browing Citori 425 with non-adjustable stock. Always fell into the right position. But I only hat a shirt on and there was nothing I could adjust on this Browing Citori 425 ...

BigJimP
March 11, 2009, 04:00 PM
You're welcome.

Overall, I like the Cynergy design. One of my buddies shoots last years version of the gun you're looking at - he likes the look and feel of the synthetic / he's been very happy with it ( for about 9 months now ).

But, a couple of issues ( not bad, just so you know ...):

On the Cynergy model, the comb is adjustable up and down - but not left or right for " cast " - if that is an issue for you ( unless they have changed it on the newer models) - it would be a big problem. I shoot a neutral cast gun - so it would not be an issue for me / but some guys need a little bit of cast " on or off " from center. The adj combs on the wood stocked Citori lineup - are adjustable up and down and left and right ... I don't know if the wood stocked Cynergy is adjustable for cast or not ?

Cynergy recoil pad - you're pretty well stuck with the one that is on the Cynergy models. On the Citori wood stock guns - you can change the pads to get a different length of pull ( go thicker or thinner ). You can also get a pad with different profiles - toe in, a rocker style, flat ones, etc. - depends on what you like. I change the pads on all my guns when I buy them - but I stay with a Kick-EEZ version, a little thicker, of the same stock pads that come from Browning on the XS Skeet models. On my " Trap guns " I go to a little different system - with a Gra Coil recoil system. But I don't like the Gra Coil on my hunting, sporting clays or skeet guns.

On wood stock guns you can also go to a " Jones pad " butt plate / and I like that on my " Trap " guns - but honestly, I don't have it on my hunting, Skeet guns. The Jones butt plate allows you to put some cast in at the butt - where the butt plate has some adjustability up or down / or roll the gun to the left or right ...... I don't think you can put a Jones butt plate on a Cynergy / especially the synthetic models / so maybe that's a factor for you ( but if you're new to this stuff, just ignore it ..).

The jury is still out on the Cynergy barrel lockup system to the receiver. Cynergy has been around for about 4 - 5 years now - but I don't know of any serious Target Shooters - that went to the Cynergy - or anybody putting 10,000 shells a year thru one. The only guys I know that shoot them - are just casual shooters - maybe 2,500 shells a year / but I have not heard of one breaking down either. But, the Citroi lineup / barrel connection has been one of the strongest on the market for a long time. I don't know if we will say that about the Cynergy or not in 25 years ??? I've shot the Cynergy in a couple of different models - in 12 and 20ga - and I liked them.

The look of the Cynergy appeals to some / some think its ugly. Initially I thought it was a little ugly - but I admit, its grown on me.

Honestly, if I had a major fire at home / or somebody stole all of my shotguns - I'm not sure what I would do to replace all my Brownings but I would at least look at the Cynergy. I have quite a few shotguns ( and 10 Browning O/U's ... ) - and I like them all / they've held up for a long time / for many thousands of shells. My bet is the Cynergy will hold up long term as well / not withstanding the issues I've listed, if it will work for you dimensionally.

beetlefang
March 11, 2009, 06:51 PM
I'm no pro...but my O/U's are a 687 and a 425 in 20 gauge.

Both are quality guns and very nice. The 687 has the smaller receiver.

SmokeyVol
March 11, 2009, 10:00 PM
Browning Citori GTS Grade I

Para Bellum
March 12, 2009, 03:05 AM
...hm, the 425 Citori in the shop just felt perfect. Always came into position naturally....
I'll go to the shop again and try em all again and check for adjustable combs....:confused:

....and then by them all...

Para Bellum
March 12, 2009, 07:48 AM
Hi Folks!

I've just bought it. You should see the SMILE on my face :D:

It is a Browning Cynergy Composite Black Ice in 12/76
http://www.sportsmanguncentre.co.uk/i/uploads/full/11710179173635.jpg

I got my hands on all guns on my shortlist (425, 525, GTS, Cynergy) again. I liked the Cynergy best because it is technically state of the art (Backboared, Steelshot, InvectorPlus Chokes etc...), but it didn't fit perfectly. So we just adjusted the Comb, up two levels and it was perfect. That's what I like so much about this gun: Whatever direction my training will take me, the gun can be adapted. There's three Comb inserts: Neutral, outward, inward, and all can be adjusted in height. Two recoil-pads, standard and short. And the looks, man what a beauty.

I want to thank you all, especially BigJimP for your expert's help and time. Without you I had bought a 425 with a wooden stock.

Take care and stay well!
PB

Maromero
March 12, 2009, 08:13 AM
Enjoy.

BigJimP
March 12, 2009, 11:28 AM
You're welcome - and we look forward to a report in 7 or 8 weeks ....and some perfect 25's ..... I hope you have a lot of good days with it.

Waterengineer
March 12, 2009, 12:04 PM
This has been one of the better threads in a while, IMHO. Several of TFL shotgun sages have offered good advice, as always.

The only thing I can add (or ask) relates to the 6XX sereis Beretta line and the Cynergy Browning line.

It is my opinion that if Browning were to tell the truth, even with all the "technological improvements" of the Cynergy line, the Cynergy line was designed to be a direct competitor with Beretta.

The smaller, more svelte receiver, the lower barrels, the physical weight and swing feel of the Cynergy are very similar to the 6XX series Berettas.

Another point that speaks to my argument regarding direct competition is how hard Browning markets the Cynergy in europe, and the UK more specifically.

Does anyone else feel this way about the marketing and feel of the two guns?

BigJimP
March 12, 2009, 12:32 PM
I think you make a good point waterengineer.

I think FN Herstal - which owns and operates Browning/Wichester shotguns under their corporation now is trying to figure out how to take on the Beretta Holding company that operates and controls - Beretta, Benelli, Franchi, Stogeger, Uberti, etc.

As I recall - the Cynergy was designed while Browning was still independent - but at about the same time they bought Winchester. Then I think it was about 3 years ago that FN purchased Browning / Winchester. But I think with the FN money behind them now - the Browning people have introduced some new Cynergy models and some newer models in the Citori lineup - synthetic especially.

I think in general its fair to say there is an appeal, among a younger shooter especially, to look at the Beretta lineup vs a more traditional or heavier looking Browning. So I don't think there is any doubt that FN-Browning / Winchester are looking to take some of those customers from Beretta, Benelli etc.

I think its interesting in my family - that the Benelli super sport auto ( synthetic and flashy ) is really attractive to my grandsons and their buddies in high school. Its often the first gun they gravitate towards. I suspect, if I add a synthetic Cynergy down the road ( like ParaBellum's new gun) that it would be the same way with that gun. Maybe the same way, when I was a kid, I gravitated to Browning Citori's.

I think another interesting company to watch is Sig / Blazer shotguns ( in the $ 7,000 - $10,000 ) price range. They aren't really taking on Krieghoff or Kolar at this point / but I think they might be hurting Perazzi a little already / and picking off some of the Beretta or Browning higher end guns, especially anything out of the custom shop at Browning like the superposed.

But I think you're right ( even though I'm not a Beretta fan ).

Para Bellum
March 12, 2009, 01:03 PM
You're welcome - and we look forward to a report in 7 or 8 weeks ....and some perfect 25's ..... I hope you have a lot of good days with it.
:)
I will keep you posted and revive this thread with my experiences...

I can relate to that gravitation thing. The Cynergy cought me on first sight. And I hope it's versatility and adaptability makes it a perfect first quality shotgung (I had a TOZ 34 before...).

Waterengineer
March 12, 2009, 07:57 PM
Jim:

I will make a more comprehensive post further discussing some of your points. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to do that now. But, to keep this thread on the first page let me say this has to be the ugliest guns Browning has been willing to put their stamp on. What exactly were they thinking?

http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?value=014B&cat_id=013&type_id=289 :barf::barf::barf:

guruatbol
March 13, 2009, 12:02 AM
I use a Citori for dove and it does well. I got it used for $300, so the price was right. I started with an 870 and then a Mossberg 500. I have many shotguns, but only the Citori O/U.

That is my experience, my advice is if money is not an issue go to a good shop and, well shop. Try 'em at a range if you can, and then buy the one that fits you. Many of the choices above are awesome weapons. the best one though is the one that first fits you and second does what you want. My safe has a bunch of firearms I hate. So, get what you want!

Oh, I shoot Glocks too. Nothing to be ashamed of.

Mel

BigJimP
March 13, 2009, 11:54 AM
Oh, come on now - there is plenty to be ashamed of if you shoot Glocks ...:rolleyes:

A yellow Cynergy ..../there are just some things that ought to be left alone ....motorcycles need to be Black (and chrome)/handguns should be made out of steel/a man should be able to be proud of his shotguns when he looks in the safe (but not if one of them is yellow ....):D

Para Bellum
March 14, 2009, 04:07 AM
Oh, come on now - there is plenty to be ashamed of if you shoot Glocks ...
I disagree and seize the opportunity to out myself as a polymer-fetishist (Glock, AUG, Cinergy Composite) :p

A yellow Cynergy ..../there are just some things that ought to be left alone ....motorcycles need to be Black (and chrome)/handguns should be made out of steel/a man should be able to be proud of his shotguns when he looks in the safe (but not if one of them is yellow ....)
Agreed to almost anything. I gave my Cynergy the name "Excalibur", you should see it. That's exactly my personal understanding of functional design. My motorcycle was black and chrome with a long fork and now my roadster is black and chrome... :)

guruatbol
March 14, 2009, 08:17 AM
OK, Glocks are fine, so are Fords.

My Motorcycle was green, my Mustangs are old and they are black cherry and blue. My gun safe is too full and there are only a few synthetic stocks and yes right on the top shelf are three Glocks. I used to carry one of them, one is for practice and one, well I just wanted a .45 and I got a good deal on it. All have the extended mag and slide release and night sights. They are accurate, nothing on the sides to catch my jacket when CC is needed, and well, just fun to fire.

As for shotguns, they should not be yellow! Mine are either wood, (My first choice) or black, (My daughter's first choice. In fact I think I will go out back today and shoot up the rest of my clays that are sitting around in my garage.

I need to blast something, Friday the 13th wasn't kind to me.....

Parabellum, Your choice looks like fun, enjoy it.... I think if it fits you and you like it, the heck with what I think....

Mel :cool:

Para Bellum
March 15, 2009, 05:15 PM
Oh boy, I shot it yesterday. Even the trainer wanted to get a closer look immediately and was really attracted to it. :):D:cool:

Para Bellum
March 19, 2009, 04:35 PM
Nine out of Ten today. I like this gun!

BigJimP
March 19, 2009, 05:00 PM
9 out of 10 ---- what happened on the other 15 targets ....

anewbie
March 19, 2009, 09:32 PM
This thread was exactly what I was looking for. I am in market to buy a gun, and after going through google searches and browning/beretta sites. I shortlisted Beretta 687 Silver Pigeon II/III, Browning Citori XS Skeet, XS Special, and Citori Sporting. I just have to go try them out.

I was looking for one gun to be able to use for Skeet, Sporting Clays, and also Trap but looks like for Trap I would need a separate gun because of hi rib.

anewbie
March 19, 2009, 10:25 PM
From the reviews and on paper the Beretta 682 Gold E Skeet looks better than the Citori, it has the adjustable comb as well. But it is very light 7.5lbs compared to Browning (approx 8.5lbs) and it costs about $1000 more.

A store in Delaware is selling Citori XS Skeet with Adjustable comb for under $2600 but Beretta 682 is $3600.

Does Beretta 682 Gold really offers $1000 worth of better quality/handling provided they both fit well?

Waterengineer
March 19, 2009, 11:03 PM
anewbie:

Bottomline, you will want the extra weight of the Browning. You will understand this after shooting a few hundred rounds in a day. Light guns are great for walking the field behind the dog but a dedicated target gun should have some mass.

In my opinion you need to swing (and shoot if you can) both the 682 and the 525. They feel and swing very differently.

If you like the 682 you should look hard at the Browning Cynergy. I believe it was made to swing like a Beretta.

The 525 XS Skeet with the adjustable parallel stock is the way to go and the price is fair - buy it.

No, I don't believe the Beretta is worth $1K more.

Para Bellum
March 20, 2009, 09:37 AM
9 out of 10 ---- what happened on the other 15 targets ....

Didn't count that. The test for the hunting liecense here is 3 out of 10. Once I passed the test (should be managable :p) I'll count about the 25 series...

BigJimP
March 20, 2009, 11:27 AM
The 682 Gold E skeet - still has a comb that is angled / and with an adjustable comb it makes no sense to me.

See my notes previously - but the idea that any angled comb gun ( on a Browning or Beretta ) is a good fit - and adjustable is nonsense. Adjustable or not - it still is not parallel to the rib ( it adjusts but stays parallel to the original angle of the comb ). If you move forward or backward on that comb ( in a T shirt in summer / 2 coats in winter ) - your muzzle will move up or down as you shoulder the gun - and your point of impact will change ..

In my mind - a comb that is parallel to the rib ( for a general purpose gun, is the only way to go ) although Browning and Beretta both sell guns with non-parallel combs with adj combs ....

No matter what you do - pick a gun that has a parallel comb. My personal preference is the Browning Citori XS Skeet ( there is no 525 XS skeet - that my friend listed above ...) - there is a Browning Citori XS Special / both with adjustable parallel combs. You can certainly use either gun for Trap as well - especially for casual Trap shooting. Down the road you can add a dedicated Trap gun ( heavier and longer probably ) if you want.

No, the Beretta is not worth the premium of $1,000 - and without a parallel comb - its worthless to me at any price. I won a very nice Beretta 68?? in a door prize raffle a few years ago - and traded it in for a Browning XT Trap ... Beretta makes a solid and nice looking gun / but "fit" is everything on a shotgun.

James R. Burke
March 21, 2009, 11:41 AM
I just bird bird hunt for grouse that come up really close, and fast. I use a Browning upland over/under with a straight english stock 24" tubes. I am not sure if they even make this one anymore. It would be no good for serious trap but a great grouse gun. I run cyl in the bottom and improved in the top nice combo for grouse just made for speed. If you even get close to them they come down with this combo. I am a small person, and the fit is great for me. It's a 20ga and does have a pretty good recoil, but like I said it is just for up close birds.

Para Bellum
March 21, 2009, 02:20 PM
I shot my Cynergy again today. What a good buy, I love it!

...and everybody else who sees it likes it, too... :D

Para Bellum
April 11, 2009, 04:08 AM
10 out of 10 yesterday, but not all with the first shot. I'll keep practicing till it's 25 out of 25 all first shot...

might take some time
;)

I really like this gun. Great decision - great advice in this thread. Thanks!
:)

oneounceload
April 11, 2009, 08:40 AM
My 20+ year old Browning GTI had over 80,000 before needing new springs and getting the top lever back to the right - always goes bang

Para Bellum
April 17, 2009, 10:10 AM
24 ouf 26 today. Great gun, great fun. Now comes the hard part of getting as close to perfect as possible and reaching my first 25/25....

whenever I am that close, I get to thinking and blow it! :o
...the way is the destination, isn't it?

BigJimP
April 17, 2009, 12:42 PM
And no matter what - you're enjoying the jouney ... keep going.

zippy13
April 17, 2009, 02:26 PM
24 ouf 26 today. Great gun, great fun.Okay, I'm confused 24 out of 26 at what? Skeet, trap singles , handicap, 5-stand, field clays, bunker trap, trap doubles, corn-field hand-tossed, or what???

I replied early in this thread, and asked Para Bellum the purpose and budget of his new gun. Since then I've learned the budget wasn't a problem, he has small hands, likes chrome and black and has a polymer fetish (I won't go there ;) ). Not wanting to go any further without more info, I've stayed clear. Gun recommendations without first defining the gun's purpose frequently turn into meaningless rants centered on brand preferences (How many times must we do the M500 v R870 two-step?). In this case the gun was selected without Para Bellum really defining is purpose.

It seems the Cynergy was selected based on recommendations, its appearance how it fit at the gun store (after adjustments). I typically recommend that one not get a shotgun without shooting it first, nor buy a car without a test drive. But, with BigJimP's (and others) continual support it seems Para Bellum is as happy as the proverbial bug in a rug with his new gun. However, I'm sure there are those traditionalists who'll think it looks like it came from Mars.

There is much to be said about the adjustable stocks we're seeing more and more of these days. Some years ago a group of us were having our lunch break and the topic turned to gun stocks. There was the never ending argument over who offers the nicest wood. Having heard this many times before, I threw out a comment just to test the water, and said something like, "Ya know, it's just because of tradition that we expect to see wood on a shotgun. If the shotgun were first invented today, the use of wood would probably never be considered. The job can be done better and cheaper with man made materials." I expected some rebuttal, but there was none. The Cynergy epitomizes the state-of-the-art in modern stock design. In time, the old school crew will come to accept the extraterrestrial look as conventional. Cynergy type guns may gain in their mass appeal; however, there will always be a market for high grade guns with custom fit exquisite wood.

Para Bellum, as my friend, BigJim, requested, please keep us updated on your progress.

Good luck and good shooting,
Pete

BigJimP
April 17, 2009, 02:41 PM
Well said Zippy ....

and while I hope all of us helped Para Bellum in his search .....and I'm glad he is happy with his synthetic Cynergy ........

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=38068&d=1226348855

I am not switching either one of my Trap guns to synthetic stocks ...

Para Bellum
April 17, 2009, 03:58 PM
Okay, I'm confused 24 out of 26 at what? Skeet, trap singles , handicap, 5-stand, field clays, bunker trap, trap doubles, corn-field hand-tossed, or what???
Trap. Preparation for the county's hunting license exam. kind of strange and boaring. The requirement is 3 out of 10 straight pigons. The machine gives you 26 when you pay 25 so that's how and where I came to 24 out of 26.

I replied early in this thread, and asked Para Bellum the purpose and budget of his new gun. Since then I've learned the budget wasn't a problem, he has small hands, likes chrome and black and has a polymer fetish (I won't go there).
:) General purpose versatile sporting and hunting shotgun (as the title of the thread might have indicated). And that's exactly what I believe to have now. ;)

In this case the gun was selected without Para Bellum really defining is purpose.
There was no closer framed purpose in the thread because there is non, Hunting, Trap, Skeet, Compaq Sportin. Fun with one gun. If I hit with that one gun at Skeet or Compaq Sporting, I'll hunt with it because I will hit game with it.

It seems the Cynergy was selected based on recommendations, its appearance how it fit at the gun store (after adjustments).
Yep. :D

But, with BigJimP's (and others) continual support it seems Para Bellum is as happy as the proverbial bug in a rug with his new gun.
Major bug in major rug. Thanks again guys! :)

However, I'm sure there are those traditionalists who'll think it looks like it came from Mars.
Thats why I like it (one of the reasons).:D
Makes me think of aN MTV-Commercial in the 90s: "Some people say this music is loud, aggressive, vulgar and appleals to the most basic animal instintcs - That's why we play it!" :D

BigJimP: I undestand why you like your guns!

zippy13
April 17, 2009, 04:43 PM
BigJimP
My friend... I just looked into my crystal ball. I predict we'll be hearing more from Para Bellum, in a year or two, after he's settled in and decides to get a game specific comp gun (or two). :D

BigJimP
April 17, 2009, 04:59 PM
Zippy13,

Yes buddy, or two, or three ..... / what's the point of having a big gun safe, if it's only half full ......he'll learn ...

and that's why the women in our lives think most of us are all insane ....

( I even paste waxed and polished a couple of my shotguns and handguns this week ) / and I was thinking about doing a few more this week .....and taking some stocks off, cleaning my loaders ....going to the woodworkng show in town tomorrow / so I have to have a clean shop ( in case something follows me home ) - and gun show next weekend .... something else may follow me home then too ...

Para Bellum
April 18, 2009, 04:04 AM
BigJimP
My friend... I just looked into my crystal ball. I predict we'll be hearing more from Para Bellum, in a year or two, after he's settled in and decides to get a game specific comp gun (or two).
:p Maybe. but after 14 years I still only shoot glocks. Precision shooting and IPSC. Work very well for me, even against much more expensively equipped competitors... so maybe my cynergy is my one-for-all shottie. I strongly believe that I'd rather stick with the one gun I use best...

Zippy13,
Yes buddy, or two, or three ..... / what's the point of having a big gun safe, if it's only half full ......he'll learn ...
:D Maybe. By now it's three glocks (26, 26, 19) an AUG-Z, a 1961 Mauser 98 in 7x57 a 1908 Mannlicher-Schönauer in 7x64, a Baikal Coach Gun, and my Cynergy. And my wife still loves me...

and that's why the women in our lives think most of us are all insane ....
see above. :D