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LateNightFlight
March 2, 2009, 06:20 PM
If you haven't seen it already, there's a lion hunt video up on LiveLeak.com, here: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0fc_1235989196

I rate the 'pucker factor' for this one an 8.5 :eek:

billythekid007
March 2, 2009, 10:14 PM
holy sh**!!! that would do it for me! thats amazing.. scary as hell but amazing!

billythekid007
March 2, 2009, 10:27 PM
ok so that sparked me too search some more of that on youtube.. check this out! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CNgwZgoKFc

Fat White Boy
March 2, 2009, 10:50 PM
O.K.- So, does anyone not understand why "Stopping Power" is important?

Inspector3711
March 2, 2009, 11:05 PM
I understand why lion hunting isn't on my schedule. If it was I would be looking at something in a .35 or larger after that last one!

Daryl
March 3, 2009, 06:24 AM
Looks like adrenaline charged FUN!!

I'd love to hunt african lion.

Daryl

hardhit
March 3, 2009, 06:48 AM
Um um lion hunting is not of me! That thing was motoring that guy was toast if they didn’t put that lion down,

That’s why you make your first shot count and never ever shoot at dangerous game unless your 100% on the shot, lions are tuff animals and wounded they are unpredictable at best.

Kreyzhorse
March 3, 2009, 07:53 AM
That's a great clip.

lt dan
March 3, 2009, 09:56 AM
the ph is johan calitz

fisherman66
March 3, 2009, 10:01 AM
Can you say...."Depends"!:eek:

Daryl
March 3, 2009, 10:53 AM
Um um lion hunting is not of me! That thing was motoring that guy was toast if they didn’t put that lion down,


Stopping the lion was important, no doubt. I wouldn't be so much worried about stopping the lion (I'm very confidant in my shooting ability on running animals) as I would be about being shot by someone ELSE trying to hit the lion.

With something like that, you need to be sure everyone there knows exactly what they're doing, and won't panic.

Even so, I'd still take the challenge, given the chance.

Daryl

Socrates
March 3, 2009, 01:24 PM
Second clip is a canned hunt, in an enclosure, and really makes me angry. Pretty much a pet lion.

As for the first one, yes, that guy is VERY lucky. He must have hit CNS for the cat to stop that quick.

A real eye opener is watching Mark Sullivan shoot lions with his .577 or .600 Nitro Express. They take hits from that, and keep moving.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZCCbG8GIhg&feature=related

The other thing to remember is these were males that charged. Bit unusual. The really scary part is when you get hunted by the girls....Then your dinner...

Been said that velocity in the 2400 fps range, with a 400 grain bullet, softpoint, is ideal lion medicine. Don't know about that, but, the cats in Sullivians video seem to move around a bit after being shot. Keep in mind that big double is either 650 grains to 900 grains, moving around 1900 fps.

hardhit
March 3, 2009, 08:12 PM
Yeah I think panic is the key word here im not sure what rifles they were using,
It looked like one guy that shot the lion had a double barrel nitro jobbie ?
and it look like he missed with this first shot, lucky for the guy he got off a good second one and stone the cat.

Socrates
March 3, 2009, 08:23 PM
From
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/470103413?r=470103413#470103413

When you get in WAY over your head



Posted 10 August 2005 20:30
Pierr'e slowly signaled for me to come abreast of him and when I arrived he cupped his hand to his ear and begin to listen intently. A four letter word then hissed from his lips and I turned my head towards him askance only to see him staring intently into the thick bush just ahead. Following his lead, I then studied tightly woven grass right before us and saw his cause for concern. The two tawny rear legs and the round belly of a lioness were barely visible about 15 feet away. Both of us slowly raised our rifles.

I was on the third day of a ten day hunt in the Selous, enjoying a few days of 1x1 hunting for buffalo with my old friend and P.H., Pierr'e van Tonder. I'd gotten into some really exciting and close up encounters with buffalo the first two days, but had no success putting everything together. After spending most of the early morning driving around in the Land Cruiser without results, upon the trackers recommendation, we drove to a dry river bed to check the sandy soil for tracks, hoping that a buffalo or three might have decided to wait out the midday heat in the shadows of the thick vegetation on both banks.

We arrived at our destination about 11:00 a.m. and parked the safari car in the shade and walked down a steep hippo trail to the white sand. After only a few hundred yards of travel down the winding koronga and fighting the powdery footing below, I was drenched in sweat and suffering in the 90 degree heat. Buffalo hunting isn't always fun. I was already breathing hard.

Twiga, the Masai tracker, suddenly froze. I then heard branches snap and the unmistakable bovine bellow of a buffalo up on the bank. It didn't sound very far away at all. We scrambled up a hippo rut as quietly as possible and listened some more. Again and again, we all heard the characteristic grunts and groans of a herd slowly feeding along in front of us. Soon, we began to find dung, still green and wet. My pulse quickened and my focus became more intent. Pierr'e turned and made sure I was carrying my rifle, a vintage Westley Richards .450/.400 double. "Keep up," he whispered and,. "We're really close" were the only and unnecessary words that he'd say for about 20 minutes as we slipped along, both following the willowy Masai. We often stopped and scanned the shadows for the black shapes of buffalo, and occasionally saw movement but couldn't determine gender, much less the quality of a possible trophy.

Then it happened. As described in the first paragraph, we were only a few feet from a lion whose intent was the same as ours and that was killing buffalo.

I gave an involuntary shiver when, although unseen, but closer than the length of an F250, a buffalo bellowed. The lion before us sprang and there was a tremendous whack of flesh on flesh just to the right of me. I couldn't tell if the lion had hit the buffalo, or the other way around, but within a second or two, the harpies of hell broke loose.

The tremendous thunder of hundreds of buffalo hooves was all around us. Lions growled and roared. The thud of hundreds... no... thousands of pounds of bodies colliding was seemingly continuous. Twiga had moved just to our rear and Pierr'e and I were back to back... and I silently thanked God that he shot left-handed. His .500 Jeffery was at his shoulder and my double at mine..

The thunder got infinitely louder and a cow and a full-grown calf came around a large clump of brush and headed directly for us with a lioness only inches behind them, swinging deliberately with her left front paw at the left flank of the mama buffalo. I could easily see terror in the eyes of the cow and cold deliberation in the coal-black pupils of the pursuer. The cow had a huge part of its ham ripped from it and its nose was spraying blood like a garden hose.

Before either Pierr'e or I could even react, all three animals saw us and skidded to a stop, a distance we later stepped off at seven paces. Pierr'e whispered to take a buffalo if they come an inch closer and I told him that I'd take the buff on the right... I guess we just prayed that the lion would flee at the shot. I don't remember why the buffalo seemed the greatest threat, but I clearly remember that it was.

And then I could feel Pierr'e become steel. "On the left..", and somehow, still keeping my attention on the two buffalo and the lioness in my sights, I saw a full-grown killing machine's head and shoulders appear only a couple of feet below the up raised rifle barrel of the Professional Hunter against whom my spine pressed. From a slither like a snake, she never gave us a glance and sprung for the calf. I'll never forget that leap. From almost under our feet she had no trajectory in her flight, but just powered straight at the animal, hitting it full on, spinning upon contact and attempting catch the nose within her powerful jaws. She succeeded and wrenched the calf's neck almost off its body as she dug her claws into the horribly moaning buffalo.

When the lioness under Pierr'e feet had jumped at the calf, its mother had valiantly lunged at the oncoming blur but missed. As a byproduct of her attempt to save her calf, she caused the lioness behind her to miss in its simultaneous attack from the rear, all this resulting in a roiling and bloody tangle of two lioness and two desperate buffalo in a tornado of death immediately before us.

As if a time out whistle had blown, the lions just let go of the prey and the temporarily reprieved buffalo stood only inches away from their attackers (and only feet from us). I could see the gore-covered heaving chests of the lions. Their teeth were bared. They purred a terrifyingly gentle r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r. Both cats just sat on their haunches for ten or so seconds and gathered strength, it seemed. And then with a look that said, "I know you're there", they turned their stares to us and squared their shoulders in our direction. I was so damn close to the "right" lioness that the round bead on the front sight didn't even cover the entire bloody nose of the animal I had targeted. I began to very deliberately pull the trigger. I had had enough.

A millisecond before the sear broke, the buffalo took the opportunity to spin away and the chase was on again. "My" lion was after the calf this time and she whipped her paws at the retreating legs of the animal and ripped at its hams with teeth that seemed as long a those of a saber-toothed tiger.

What the hell! Three additional lions that we'd never seen flew past us just missing Twiga who was at our rear. Later he told us he'd seen them within yards, crouched in the shadows, but figured there wasn't a damned thing we could do about them with all the carnage going on in front of us.

Both wounded buffalo tried to get up a steep hill, but with the damage already done and the harrying of the lions, couldn't make it up and over. They turned and came charging back directly at us, only to be turned to my right by another lioness, to then unseen, that is, until she professionally performed her blocking tactic. I'd never seen her even though she first appeared only the length of a good trout rod from me. I aimed at the hole in her ear until she completed her task when the buffalo turned back and bayed against a tree trunk. By this time, in full view, we could count six lions. One or two were juvenile males... but big as hell... and they all fanned before us and made a semi-circle around the screaming buffalo.

The lions had it figured out. The two in the center just awaited the inevitable while the other four began to slide to the sides and rear of the buffalo.... again, all this no further away than the length of a fairly "makeable" birdie putt. Twiga tapped me and pointed to our right side. A fully adult male, albeit with only a thin mane and a still yellow nose was slipping through the brush with a path that would go over my shaking feet. I signaled to Pierr'e that I wanted to give way.

Pierr'e grabbed me by the shirt and pulled. Still back to back, we moved away from the oncoming lion who alternately glanced at our retreating figures and back at his prospective dinner. He was pretty well stove up, and we latter figured that the initial contact had been a successful, if temporary bashing of this big guy by one of the buffalo in the herd.... but who knows? Thankfully, he made his way into the circle of lions and let us retire to where we now had twenty yards of comfort. Whoopee.. Twenty yards. Think about it.

For the first time, I took my eyes off of the lions and buffalo to assess a path up the hill and to relative safety. Pierr'e, angry as hell, said, "Don't you dare take your eyes off of them". I complied.

As if on a signal, the lions again attacked and all the animals, the killers and the prey, thundered in a cloud of dust and flying blood down toward the dry river bed. Ripping, tearing... all the lions taking their turns in perfect time. I was in awe.

Pierr'e, Twiga and I didn't speak or move for maybe a full minute, still expecting another lion or tiger or dragon or Viet Cong or T-Rex to come out of the bushes at us. Then we heard the plantive death moan of a buffalo... a short pause and the sound of a single buff galloping madly away from us through the brush and the whisper-whip of the grass as the lions followed..

We looked where we had stood during the majority of the incident. Blood was all around where our feet had been. We looked at our britches... we were peppered with tiny specks of red. Our legs wobbled. We wanted to sit down, but were afraid to do so because we didn't know if we'd be able to get up. We began a stupid giggle and the game scout and assistant tracker who had witnessed the whole thing from the immediate hillside, joined us... We all jabbered, no one paying one bit of attention to the other...

Finally, we began to all tell our stories to each other..... stories bound to be embellished some as time passed, but right then.. It was real and we couldn't lie to each other. Pierr'e, Twiga and I had bonded as brothers... it was the most exciting time I had ever spent in my life...

I didn't just witness the Cadillacs of Killers in action.. I had been a part of it. I didn't see it on television or even sit in a safari car and watch it from a distance. I had blood on me. It was primal, basic, perfect, raw and the most scarlet and scariest damn thing that man may be able to walk away from.

And unlike Francis Macomber, I, in Pierre's eyes, had passed the test....

And I felt pretty darn good about that.

We carefully backtracked to the vehicle and I tried to eat lunch. I threw up my guts when I took the first bite.... And then thought a little more kindly about the dear deceased Mr. Macumber. My reaction just took 15 minutes longer than his, I guess.

I've been to the mountaintop, it seems. I loved every frantic second and I wanted it to last forever. I wanted the Westley Richards to thump against my shoulder when the lion took one more step or the buff lowered her head to charge. I felt strength in my brothers' back and pure joy in their laughter afterwards. And the memories are mine until I die... burned into my brain as sure as a brand.

And I guess that's why I go to Africa..


JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous.

Creature
March 3, 2009, 08:35 PM
I'm kinda sad that the lion lost....at least he almost got a piece of one of those knuckleheads.

Brian Pfleuger
March 3, 2009, 08:45 PM
Hm, maybe that's why you don't CHASE a wounded lion? I mean, Hello?, follow maybe, RUN AFTER? NOOOO!?!!?!!

Socrates
March 3, 2009, 10:14 PM
Yep. I'm not a great fan of Mark Sullivan. Leopard and lions shot weren't exactly attacking anyone, and, I think their skins look much better on the cats then anyone else...
That said, they may not be around much longer, and, having a trophy of what used to walk the earth might be kind of cool...

TO ALL FOLKS PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ THE POST ABOUT BUFFALO HUNTING IN THE QUOTE I POSTED BELOW. IT IS ONE OF THE GREATEST PIECES EVER WRITTEN ABOUT HUNTING BIG GAME, IN A VERY SHORT FORMAT.

LateNightFlight
March 3, 2009, 10:38 PM
When you get in WAY over your head

Wow! Hell'va read... really well authored. Thanks for the post up!

Socrates
March 3, 2009, 11:05 PM
From a slither like a snake, she never gave us a glance and sprung for the calf. I'll never forget that leap. From almost under our feet she had no trajectory in her flight, but just powered straight at the animal, hitting it full on, spinning upon contact and attempting catch the nose within her powerful jaws. She succeeded and wrenched the calf's neck almost off its body as she dug her claws into the horribly moaning buffalo.
:eek:

lt dan
March 5, 2009, 02:26 PM
hey tony i hope i spelled your surname right. i see that some of the guys here think that Johan and his fellow hunters panicked. or that they were fools to pursue the wounded lion.

gentleman seriously, look at the video again you will see at least two very important things.

1) the willingness of the ph's to put their live on the line to bring to an end the misery of a wounded lion. we as laptop hunters can debate this but to these men to kill a wounded animal is a code they live by.

2) if you think they panicked it does not explain why they ran after the dangerous animal. but if you check the vid again you will see that as soon as the lion makes its intentions clear you will see the the ph's in the charging animal position ie going down on one knee and therefore giving up the choice to flee and thus excepting the lions challenge.

i say again the snr ph in this vid is Johan Calitz, a man that is prominently featured in ESPN's Under wild skies.

is this the correct way to hunt a lion? no. but this is the kind of guys you want with you when you( the client) messed up the first shot.

anyway Tony i just thought that you can vouch for Johan's valor

Socrates
March 5, 2009, 03:09 PM
That hunter made an AMAZING shot. Wonder what caliber the rifle was?
I've watched a lot of video of people hunting lions, and, it appears the target area for a CNS hit is very small, and, they are just flat hard to kill with one shot.

Lt. Dan: any idea to the caliber rifle used? Had to be a spine or brain shot, wouldn't you think?

Daryl
March 5, 2009, 08:05 PM
hey tony i hope i spelled your surname right. i see that some of the guys here think that Johan and his fellow hunters panicked. or that they were fools to pursue the wounded lion.


I don't know if this is meant for me or not, but to clearify...

I did not mean to imply that they panicked. In fact, it appears to me that all involved did exactly what needed done.

My statement above was made only because I've hunted with some danged fools that I WOULD NOT want behind me in that scenario. If they were, I'd be more afraid of them than the cat.

And worrying about the guy(s) behind you could cause some problems when you need to focus on what's in front of you to stay alive.

So, if it was meant for me, then re-read my post and you should understand my meaning a little better.

Daryl

B.N.Real
March 5, 2009, 10:17 PM
Personally,I would never want to walk into a forest like that to find anything that ready to kill me.

That said,they responded to the situation prefectly and the lion died with the second shot immediately.

Everyone that wants to go to Alaska and hug a Grizzly bear should watch this.

Four guys with rifles almost became dinner had they not been well trained and well ready for the charge they knew might come.

And the irony here is that,the money spent on that lion hunt might be the reason that lion was able to be alive at all.

As long as their is a commercial reason for those people to not kill the lions outright,they will have an incentive to keep them and their habitat safe.

Do I like it?

No,but I fully understand it.

LateNightFlight
March 6, 2009, 12:11 AM
And the irony here is that,the money spent on that lion hunt might be the reason that lion was able to be alive at all.

Good point. As long as there is an interest in hunting lions, there is also an incentive to protect habitat and preserve their numbers.

The example of Ducks Unlimited comes to mind, where hunters are the strongest habitat and conservation advocates.

lt dan
March 6, 2009, 09:11 AM
daryl, no worries mate and if i offended you it was unintentional.

socrates, i dont know what caliber Johan uses here. i have limited exposure to his set-up. however this is the first time i saw him with what looks like a double. Johan has a website maybe we should ask him for some more info on the rifle and the whole story.

he advertises in a local hunting mag will try to find the web adress

Creature
March 6, 2009, 09:42 AM
Unless they are hunting the lion for food, I see no reason to hunt a lion. If it is to "maintain their population", it seems to me that we are the ones who are encroaching on the lion's natural habitat. Nature has an uncanny way of being able to maintain a balance between predator and prey and controlling populations. Humans certainly dont need to step in to control the lion population, except to reduce their numbers so that we can safely encroach on their habitat.

MrClean
March 6, 2009, 10:17 AM
Holy Moly!! :eek: Ok.... I learned a few things.....

1) Don't go after a wounded Lion with your friends.
2) Don't be the closest person TO the lion when a charge is imminent.
3) IF you disregard lesson #1 & #2, take a fresh pair of Hanes and Shorts!

:D

Art Eatman
March 6, 2009, 12:08 PM
Creature, ol' homo sap isn't noted for static levels of population. More people = more encroachment. Been that way for several thousand years, and won't change anytime soon.

Even if there are "no encroachment" zones, critters don't do well at mapreading...

meathunter
March 6, 2009, 02:31 PM
First of all, even though I would love to hunt the dark continent, I will never be able to afford to do so. So, I am defending something that I personally will never get to do. I have a friend who has and I am soooooo jealous of HER, you would not believe. :D

My .02 is, if the Lion population (according to each country) is at appropriate levels so that some may be hunted for trophies, knock yourself out. Clearly, Lions are not hunted for food, so that argument makes no sense whatsoever.

The major impact of real hunts in Africa is the money and food that is put into the local economy. PH's need trackers, porters, cooks etc for each hunt. They usually hire people from the local tribes = $$$. Some of the meat from the more tasty animals are served to the sports and the rest goes to the tribe = food.

That's why the ban on Ivory is just so much more liberal tree hugging BS. The elephant herds were managed and regulated while the poachers were kept at bay so legitimate hunters could take trophies. When the Ivory was banned and went to the black market, the poachers simply moved in, killed huge numbers of elephants, not to mention police and tribesman trying to protect the elephants from rampant slaughter.

Socrates
March 6, 2009, 05:11 PM
Africa:
Most corrupt place on the planet, this side of our Congress.

Have you looked at how much it costs to hunt lion, elephant, etc.? Last hunt I looked at was 20,000 dollars for 10 days. Then you add trophy fees, and, you can drop 25k-125k on your lion, etc. As long as people pay big bucks for lions, the property owners can afford to have their land fenced, the animals protected, and keep it as is.
I'm not talking about little canned hunt ranches, but 22,000 acre ranches, and bigger.
Once that incentive, and financial ability is gone to keep the land wild, and the animals, humans will come in, farm, and shoot everything that goes after their crops, which, in Africa, is just about every wild animal.

I have little doubt that in Zim, Mugabe has some huge hoard of elephant tusks he's told his soldiers to stock up.

Last hunt I was looking at was for an elephant culling hunt in Africa, Kruger park, IIRC. For 25 thousand, or more, you get to kill an elephant with 60 pound or less ivory. Not sure if you can take the ivory out as a trophy, though.

Also, while the herds don't number in the millions any more, it's pretty amazing how the existing reserves manage to breed a LOT of animals, who then leave the parks, because there isn't enough food, or, there are too many for the area.

It may seem really odd, but, hunting gives value to those majestic animals, who, otherwise, are considered horrible pests, and, destructive forces, that are to be shot on site.

Hunting: the only real hope for African animals...

Creature
March 6, 2009, 10:24 PM
Thats why I'm still rootin' for the lion, Art.

guntotin_fool
March 9, 2009, 05:47 PM
NOt just hunting, but any revenue based income that comes from keeping an animal alive as more value than it dead.

There are places where the animal counts are way down, but eco tourism and photo safari's have given the area's income, jobs, and a visible connection between conservation and wealth.

This has happened in other places even without the massive animals of the Africa wild. Look at Costa Rica, they discovered that tourism, and recreation would pay far more and for far longer than logging, and have tried hard to stem the logging that is devastating much of South America. Brazil needs to learn this, they want tourism, but they will not stop the expansion west up the amazon basin, and soon that river will not support the life people want from it.


As for the link, I agree with Lt dan, he knows these people and posts quite vividly that the PH and his man were willing to die to save their client. As for lion medicine, the three people I know personally who hunt Africa for Big Game have used a .340 weatherby, a .338 winmag double Custom Merkel, and the other an old but still useful .450/400 Westley Richards from about 1927.

They have all had success, the WR has had the longest life, as a missionaries gun, it was first used in India, in the Assam area, to kill man eating tigers, and then after India kicked the Missionaries out in the mid sixties, it moved to Ethiopia and had a long career there killing Lions and leopards which predated the local livestock, and kept a lot of kids from reaching school, because the threat of being eaten on the way to school was very real, (teacher, "did the dog eat your homework again?" student "no I have my homework, but the lion ate my little brother" ) I believe the current owners father was one of the few on earth who regularly killed maneaters solo. He had grown up hunting in Iowa and found the double was just like his old shotgun and he felt no pressure in just standing up and taking shots "on the wing" against both lion and tiger. His stories and old tape recordings made on a Wollensak reel to reel of tigers and lions Roaring in the night would make my skin crawl.

The man who uses the Weatherby .340 says that it has had dramatic one stop kills and a few where he emptied the gun. He uses A Square bullets exclusively. He is the owner of a very large construction corporation that manages the port facilities in several of the worlds largest ports.

The owner of the Merkel double is a former boss, who has hunted around the world, he owns a very large printing and mass mailing conglomerate that produces and distributes much of the direct mail that you receive. He had at one time, one of the largest collections of trophies in the world, until a fire in 2003 destroyed the new house that was to hold them all. When you see a full body mount giraffe in the same room as a full body Elephant you realize someone spent some Ching on taxidermy. He hunted extensively in Rhodesia before it was trashed by the current leadership. I believe he is in Mozambique right now. He used federal safari loads in his rifle, as he believed in buying several cases from the same lot and having the gun regulated to that loading. He also owned(s) matching '06 and 470 NE doubles from Merkel.

This man has spent probably a million of his own dollars in developing permanent watering holes in parts of africa, both for the population and for wild life. By doing so, they have been able to "contain" without fences, wildlife migrations keeping them away from villages and people, and keeping people out of the path of the animals, leading to fewer "accidents" and a higher tolerance of the people toward wild game.

Socrates
March 9, 2009, 06:28 PM
Great Post, GF.:)

I really enjoyed the part about the water holes. Nice to know someone was smart enough to figure that out, and, put it into action. Couple of spots have cameras that digitally broadcast water hole activity in Kruger, IIRC. GREAT stuff.

the three people I know personally who hunt Africa for Big Game have used a .340 weatherby, a .338 winmag double Custom Merkel, and the other an old but still useful .450/400 Westley Richards from about 1927.

I love Merkel doubles, but, the ones I shot were in 9.3 x 74R. Isn't that pretty close to the .338, but, with 286 grain bullets? My two friends that are going to Africa for plains game, soon, are both taking doubles, one a Merkel, the other a Chapuis, both in 9.3 x 74 R. They could take anything they want, but, that's what they shoot the best, and, they are very light rifles, easy to carry for long periods of time, and easy to shoot. I think they figure that the 9.3 can kill just about anything, and, they have the guys behind them with big guns, so just hit your target. Suspect that would also make a good bear gun, at close range.


Sounds like you have some neat folks to go hunting with...

guntotin_fool
March 9, 2009, 07:07 PM
9.3 is 366 cal. 74 R is very close to a 35 Whelen with modern loads, the only one I have is part of a drilling, Its a SXS 12 gauge with a 9.3 underneath. Its easily the best gun I own, even though mine is in what could be graciously called "well used" condition. Shooting the Speer 270 grainers, I have loaded it with H4350 to about 2450 fps. which is the starting load, but I am in no mood to push this old timer any harder. Hard to believe that at one time, guns of this quality were issued as survival guns.

I also have a 9.3 x 62 built on a Win 70 and a 9.3x 57 built on a persian mauser. I have no idea who did the work, but it struck a fancy with me. All of these guns were bought when I worked in the gun shop. The winchester was built on a push feed 70 that had suffered a roll over in an ATV. the stock was smashed and the barrel bent. With just an action, and not a terribly valuable one, it sat around for a couple of years. one deal that showed up was a couple of barrels bougth for a trip that never took place, one of which was the 9.3 x 62 barrel. a junker featherweight stock and a little work in the shop and I had a "big Game" rifle. To this date, it has only killed a couple of white tail, (my nephew used it as prep for his Elk Hunt) and a smaller but still very tasty 3x3 bull Elk in Idaho.

I have never killed with it, and most likely wont, as I tend to use lever guns, in particular my 99's or my 71 Winchester. I have a safe full of guns that will never hunt with me, simply because I am too tied to the ones I use for hunting, and for most things, i like using less power than most.

Art Eatman
March 9, 2009, 07:20 PM
Creature, would you move all the people out of an area where they've been in residence for generations, just because a lion moved in? It seems like you're unknowingly arguing that an animal has rights which are superior to a human's.

The food you eat would not be available to you except for encroachment. Do you believe that encroachment which occurred decades ago is alright, but any new encroachment is bad?

We could dis-encroach and bring back the buffalo, but that would reduce our supply of grains by some 95%.

But what the heck. They're only Africans, these people being denigrated for encroaching, so who really cares?

Socrates
March 9, 2009, 07:27 PM
Jack has a Spanish 9.3 x 62 for sale, but, I'm passing on it for now.

As I've said before, if I have to use a rifle, it's because something wants to eat me. That means, something that is going to stop most anything, but, be light enough to make sure I can carry it all the time, no scope. Probably same reason you like lever guns.
The 9.3 x 62 is on my list, but, I've also got a Interarms Mark X 30-06 I've had for 30 years, and, my CZ 550 Safari, that's up at Jacks, waiting for the reboring. It's a .375, but it's too darn heavy to justify a .375 H&H, when the 9.3 x 62 is just as effective, much less recoil, and, I'm not sure I'd call it a 'big game rifle', maybe medium game, but, can be big game.

Just between the two of us, if I can't kill it with a 30-06, I want something in another category, like a .458 win mag, on a short action, or, on my CZ, a 458 Lott, or, .475 Ackley. I like open sites, short range, and heavy recoil, provided I remember my PAST recoil pad...;)

I'm trying to get my rifles setup sort of like a set of golf clubs. On the otherhand, Saeed at accuratereloading.com told me just get the .375 H&H. His observation was it's the perfect balance of power, and recoil. His approach, either Barnes X bullets, 300 grains, or, his own, WalterHog 300 grain monometal bullets, at 2700 fps. His is a .404/.375, but, I could bore out the .375 to .375 Weatherby, and get near the same ballistics. That is really a one world rifle. I suppose it doesn't hurt that his brother was the Olympic Skeet champion, and, he taught him how to shoot, and, he's better...

What are your 99's and 71 Winchesters chambered, in, and, what do you usually hunt, and where?

Socrates
March 9, 2009, 07:33 PM
Art:

I think fewer people would be a REALLY good thing. Africa has never really been a place that is managed well, or at least not the places I've heard about.

At some point, stewardship of the planet is just that, and, it doesn't mean just stewardship of animals, but humans as well. Overpopulating humans are just as bad as locusts, if they, and they do, destroy the lands ability to give them life.

I for one, think giving up a few people for a world treasure might not be a bad idea. Chinese certainly agree with me...
I for one, think lions are a world, and African treasure, and, that they are worth giving lives to protect.

As for pulling the race card, that's pretty low. Still, other cultures place less value on human life then ours do. Creature is just agreeing with such staunch advocates of human rights as Mugabe, and a few other African butchers...

By the way, animals ARE move valuable then human life in Africa. When was the last time you saw someone pay 30k to dart any human in Africa, or, 125k to shoot one?