Holder, Obama want new AWB

[azredhawk44]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=6960824&page=1

Here it comes, folks. Write your critters.

Only a month in to his administration and he's already after this. Let's make him a lame duck by his 50th day, take the house and senate in 2010 and turn him into a 1 term wonder in 2012.

[pax]

No honest or intelligent person is surprised.

:(

pax

[armedtotheteeth]

So, since the Mexican drug cartels have somehow gotten ahold of fully automatic assault rifles, they want to take away law abiding Americans Semi automatic rifles, and leave us alot less armed against these idiots?? Genious plan!! Some people should not be allowed to reproduce, ie these guys parents.

[Wildalaska]

Heres my email already sent, where is yours

Dear Senator Begich:

Eric Holder announced today that that a new Assault Weapons Ban is being considered by the Obama administration.

You won a close election, in part, because of your "pro gun" record and promises you made to protect gun rights. I respectfully request that you do everything in your power to block this legislation, including but not limited to, immediately issuing a public statement demonstrating your opposition to an so called Assault weapons ban

Please be advised that your actions in this regard will determine whether or not you receive the support of gun owning Alaskans in the future.

Thank you for your consideration.

WildandthatchildishpicneedstogoAlaska TM

[shortwave]

And this is a surprise why:confused:. Obama`s stance on guns was(will be) displayed in his past voting on gun issue`s and his statements made about guns PRIOR to becoming Pres. Now he`s Pres. and has put in place people that share his veiws. Again, should come as no surprise. IMO, this is just the start of a four year battle for gun owners to keep what rights our Constitution is supposed to guarantee us. Using Mexico as an excuse to do what you`ve already got in mind to do is pretty lame. Since when did we ever let other countries dictate or have influence over our Constitutional Rights:barf:?

[Al Norris]

Do Not Panic!

There is, as yet, no pending legislation.

Holder is putting both feet into his mouth... At least, that will be what everyone says, IF everyone on this board, and all other gun-boards, immediately writes their Congressmen and Senators.

If you are not an NRA member, join. Join today to send the Congress a solid message. I don't care what you think of the NRA. Hold your nose, if you have to, but become a member.

[Wildalaska]

Do Not Panic!

easy for you to say my customers are gonna be beating down the doors in the morning.:eek::eek::eek::)

WildlikewalmartatxmasAlaska TM

[shortwave]

Hey Wild, you gonna have Blue Light Specials on your SKS with bayonet lugs:D. You know alot of killing`s have happened here lately with bayonets and grenade launchers:eek::rolleyes:.

[AZ Med18]

ABC is censoring the responses by gun owners not liking the story....

I hope its a joke like an early april fools would be nice.

[Al Norris]

You know, this could very well be the worst political disaster since Nixon.

In '94, almost no one was watching, when the AWB came in. That isn't the case today.

By telegraphing this proposed action, Eric Holder may have just sealed his political career, along with that of his Boss. It's gonna be interesting to see what unfolds tomorrow and over the weekend.

Oh, and if you thought there was a run on guns and ammo before.... I'm thinking we haven't seen nothing yet. Starting tomorrow morning.

[Wildalaska]

Oh, and if you thought there was a run on guns and ammo before.... I'm thinking we haven't seen nothing yet. Starting tomorrow morning.

Putting the tinfoil on.....

Could be about...stimulus?:D:D:D

WildscrewthecondommoneyletssellgunsAlaska TM

[Mike Irwin]

My quick note to Senator Mark Warner of Virginia:

Despite the new administration's pre-election pledges to the contrary, Attorney General Holder has confirmed law-abiding firearms owners' worst fears and has stated that President Obama will seek a new so-called "assault weapons" ban (AWB). (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=6960824&page=1)

As Governor of Virginia you were a friend of the law-abiding firearms owner -- I urge you not to abandon gunowners nationwide and do everything you can to block this new legislative boondogle when it is introduced.

As you know, such laws only serve to impact the rights of those who are law-abiding in the first place. Not even the Federal Bureau of Investigation could find any evidence that President Clinton's 1994 AWB did the slightest thing to make Americans safer by reducing crime.

Now we're being told that not only would a new AWB make American safer, it would also help make Mexico safer by supposedly interdicting the supply of firearms to that nation's drug cartels. Since when is Mexico's inability to control its own internal crime problems a recipe for Americans to surrender even more of their Second Amendment rights?

Again, I urge you to do everything that you can to prevent this bill from ever becoming law.

Sincerely,

Michael Irwin



The same will be going to Senator Jim Webb and to Rep. Gerry Connolly, who is a friend of mine but not on the same page as I am regarding firearms. Connolly is the one I'm most concerned about.

[209]

Putting the tinfoil on.....

Could be about...stimulus?

WildscrewthecondommoneyletssellgunsAlaska TM


Easy for you to say! It's your wallet getting stimulated! :D

The rest of us are going to have to line up at the gun store the night before like we're waiting for the newest Xbox. :p

And it's still cold around these parts.

I kind of half expected it to happen. I guess I was hoping they'd remember the outcome of their last one, but I guess they think they're invincible these days.

[buzz_knox]

Despite the new administration's pre-election pledges to the contrary, Attorney General Holder has confirmed law-abiding firearms owners' worst fears and has stated that President Obama will seek a new so-called "assault weapons" ban (AWB). (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=6960824&page=1)


This is not correct. Obama called for an AWB renewal before the election. He promised to "not take your guns" but he always wanted an AWB and was open about it.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

And prices were just starting to fall back down too... I guess if they can't artificially inflate prices with legislation, they'll inflate them with speculation. Still writing all of my Senators and Representative, even though they are all Republican and know better than to sign on to any AWB.

[johninminnesota]

Oblahma is far too busy spending our money to worry about this. Wait till the country is totally given to the welfare recipients and criminals... then, he'll start on this. I give it another 6 months.

:barf:

[hogdogs]

Johninminn, He only needs 2 hours to sign it... it is pelosi and her cronies who will swiftly move this along! They are smart enuff to know they have the majority of seats but are likely to dumb to know the future career doom they will likely suffer...
Brent

[Mike Irwin]

"This is not correct. Obama called for an AWB renewal before the election. He promised to "not take your guns" but he always wanted an AWB and was open about it."


Not particularly well-worded on my part, Buzz.

I knew that, but merged the concepts too closely together.

That's what happens at 3 in the morning.

[johnwilliamson062]

Why in the world would a drug deal who is already imported drugs from SE Asia not also import AKs from the region when they are available at a fraction of the price they are in the US.

The US government has sent a huge number of arms south to the Mexican police and military, and I am sure many of them ended up in the cartels arsenal. Not civilian weapons, at least not on a large scale simply because it would have to be cheaper and easier to pull them out of the countries providing the drugs.

[ATW525]

Johninminn, He only needs 2 hours to sign it... it is pelosi and her cronies who will swiftly move this along! They are smart enuff to know they have the majority of seats but are likely to dumb to know the future career doom they will likely suffer...
Brent

Pelosi and the core of the anti-gun crowd in congress have little to fear in supporting the AWB. They almost exclusively represent states that already have AWBs of their own on the books, so their constituents are uneffected by any potential Federal AWB.

[azredhawk44]

Do Not Panic!

Easy for you to say... I forgot my towel!

[/hitchhiker references]

Anyone intending to write (on old fashioned paper and sent with a postage stamp) to their critters or to Obama should do so on a plain postcard.

Letters in envelopes, when sent to FedGov folks, don't get opened for weeks or months. This is due to screening for biological or chemical contaminants that "could" be in the envelope. A postcard has no such threat.

A paragraph on a postcard, folks.

[vranasaurus]

I just emailed Senator Grassley, tried to email Congressman King but his stupid form won't let me because I have a Kentucky zip code even though I am an Iowa resident.

I am still trying to decide if I want to waste the bandwidth emailing Senator Harkin. He has long been hostile toward gun rights.

[hoytinak]

Senator Cornyn here in Texas has an email in his "inbox" from me. :)

Very good point azredhawk44. ;)

[SkySlash]

I sent emails to both Senators, and I'm about to send one to my house reps as well.

-SS

[LaBulldog]

I read the thread posted else where on this forum. It appears that the violence in Mexico is one excuse to reinstitute the AWB.

Fact: If you get caught bringing a firearm into Mexico, you go to jail, immediately. Don't expect bail or a speedy trial.

AWB will not make a difference. The laws are already in place and they don't work cause bad guys ignore them and take their chances.:eek:

I don't own an "assault weapon" or a rifle. But if I did, I sure would not try to cross the border with it.

[doc540]

SURRRPRISE SURRRPRISE SURPRISE!!

https://www.active.com/images/upimages/GomerPyle1.jpg

Holder is not one to make a public policy speech without every word having a tactical purpose.

Addressing gun control issues was neither a foolish slip of the tongue nor an generic, offhand remark.

I said it before and am saying it again, they will use an event such as a school shooting, mall massacre, or Mexican drug lord violence as the catalyst for proposing what they have clearly stated is a core issue to them: gun control.

[jg0001]

Just tell me this... under the previous ban, were ALL magazines that held more than 10 rounds banned or just those for certain weapons? i.e. would me 15 round mag for my Sig P226 be illegal if we were back under the AWB?

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Just tell me this... under the previous ban, were ALL magazines that held more than 10 rounds banned or just those for certain weapons? i.e. would me 15 round mag for my Sig P226 be illegal if we were back under the AWB?

Under the previous ban, magazine produced prior to the ban could still be greater than 10 rounds. Magazines produced after the ban could only be ten rounds though.

The latest versions of the 1994 AWB that were introduced in 2008 actually reduced the number to 5 rounds.

[Whirlwind06]

http://www.nraila.org/ActionCenter/
Select write your reps and you can fire off emails to all of them at one time.

[JWT]

Didn't take Holder long to show his, and Obama's, true colors. Just sent E-mail messages to both Arizona senators (McCain & Kyl) and Congress woman Giffords urging them to oppose any AWB bill that is introduced.

[Mike Irwin]

WHOA! Who would have thought that this would happen?

I love how Pelosi says that the Bush administration didn't enforce existing laws when in fact the Clinton administration, which forced passage of both the Brady Act and the 1994 AWB, did virtually NOTHING to enforce those laws.


http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/pelosi-tosses-cold-water-on-reviving-assault-weapon-ban-2009-02-26.html

Pelosi tosses cold water on assault weapon ban
By Mike Soraghan
Posted: 02/26/09 11:59 AM [ET]

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi tossed cold water on the prospect of reinstating the assault weapons ban, highlighting Democrats’ reluctance to take on gun issues.

Attorney General Eric Holder raised the prospect Wednesday that the administration would push to bring back the ban. But Pelosi (D-Calif.) indicated on Thursday that he never talked to her. The Speaker gave a flat “no” when asked if she had talked to administration officials about the ban.

“On that score, I think we need to enforce the laws we have right now,” Pelosi said at her weekly news conference. “I think it's clear the Bush administration didn’t do that.”

Outside of the dig at the recent Republican president, that phrase is the stock line of those who don’t want to pass new gun control laws, such as the National Rifle Association.

The White House declined to comment on Holder's remarks, referring reporters to the Department of Justice. The DoJ did not respond to The Hill's request for comment.

[USAFNoDak]

Any gun owner who voted for this fool and his band of merrymen should have understood that with a decidedly anti gun majority in both houses of congress, and a wolf in sheeps clothing (regarding gun rights) named Barack Obama, that he'd move quickly to implement a new ban on assault weapons. There were enough hints during the campaign, as well as his previous record to look at. This was a slam dunk for him, Reid, and Pelosi. And Joe Biden has never seen a gun control bill he didn't kiss and fondle until his hair plugs stood on end. I'm guessing most of us here understood that this was coming sooner, rather than later.

[Mike Irwin]

Oh, and FAR more acceptable, Doc540.

Even Gomer approves...

[Vanya]

Do Not Panic!

There is, as yet, no pending legislation.

Yah... given the timing (just as they're handing out still more vast sums of freshly printed money to the banks), this feels a lot like "pandering to the base," i.e. trying to distract a lot of folks on the left who voted for Mr. Obama under the impression that he was some sort of progressive, rather than yet another center-right politician who's owned by Wall Street.

As Speaker Pelosi's comments make clear, Democrats in Congress DO realize that this is a non-starter.

Emails sent, anyway, to the nice folks in D.C....

[Another User Name]

What weapons were banned under the "Assault" Weapons Ban.
Wasn't it like 19 types?

Were AR-15's banned for 10 years? I had no idea.
I had read something a while back that the Assault term will be broadened if they try to push the ban.

Why is it the legal gun owners fault that Mexico has a problem with cartels and our Federal govt can't control the border and trafficking. So the problem isn't addressed. The Federal govt is to protect our borders and protect it's citizens, not try and fix the problem by taking our guns away.

[vranasaurus]

This was a slam dunk for him, Reid, and Pelosi.

Hasn't Senator Reid been publicly opposed to reinstating the AWB?

[maestro pistolero]

The media drives the public to this with their misinformation, and propaganda. This is where the battle must be fought, as well as in the congress. If gun rights activist were to send not one, but TWO letters, it would be exponentially more effective.

The first letter should go to you representatives in congress, and the second to any SPONSOR of any network running the propaganda. Let the SPONSORS know that their financial support of anti-constitutional propaganda comes with a a heavy price. Tell them that you will boycott any service or product that their corporations or any of their underlings produce or provide.

Corporations are responsible to their stockholders, legally, and otherwise. Using corporate funds to promote their political agendas should not be tolerated. I guarantee that if a sponsor KNEW they would be the subject of scorn by a significant portion of the population, they would think twice about forking over millions for network sponsorship.

We have to hit them where it hurts.

And we need both a carrot and a stick. I just described the stick. The carrot could be: if you hear a network run a story or documentary favorable to our cause, send an email to their sponsor explaining that you appreciate their sponsorship, and that it will positively impact your future buying decisions.

[maestro pistolero]

I hate to say it, and it's way too risky to be adopted as a strategy, but if the WORST were to happen, and they got their ban, there may be a silver lining.

There would then be an opportunity to get a SCOTUS ruling, once and for all, that civilian (semi-auto) versions of standard military small arms are protected, due to their direct relationship to militia use. Wouldn't THAT be nice?

I am unaware of any other scenario that would set up a SCOTUS case so directly.

Believe me, I don't wish for it, because it could be disaster. But Heller could have been a disaster, too.

[dabigguns357]

Hey did you all see the follow up story about

U.S. Guns Arming Mexican Drug Gangs; Second Amendment to Blame?

Mexico's strict gun laws are being subverted by the easy availability of weapons in the U.S., the Mexican attorney general, Eduardo Medina-Mora Icaza, told ABC News. "The Second Amendment," said the attorney general, "is certainly not designed to arm and give fire power to organized crime abroad."

More than 3,400 people have been killed by the drug cartels in the last 15 months, 2,000 of them law enforcement officials, according to the Mexican attorney general.

U.S. and Mexican officials say they have traced most of the thousands of high-powered weapons seized from the drug cartels to gun dealers in Texas, California and Arizona.

[trailgator]

Despite the new administration's pre-election pledges to the contrary, Attorney General Holder has confirmed law-abiding firearms owners' worst fears and has stated that President Obama will seek a new so-called "assault weapons" ban (AWB). (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=6960824&page=1)

As Governor of Virginia you were a friend of the law-abiding firearms owner -- I urge you not to abandon gunowners nationwide and do everything you can to block this new legislative boondogle when it is introduced.

As you know, such laws only serve to impact the rights of those who are law-abiding in the first place. Not even the Federal Bureau of Investigation could find any evidence that President Clinton's 1994 AWB did the slightest thing to make Americans safer by reducing crime.

Now we're being told that not only would a new AWB make American safer, it would also help make Mexico safer by supposedly interdicting the supply of firearms to that nation's drug cartels. Since when is Mexico's inability to control its own internal crime problems a recipe for Americans to surrender even more of their Second Amendment rights?

Again, I urge you to do everything that you can to prevent this bill from ever becoming law.

Sincerely,

VERY well put, Mike. I hope you didn't copyright it. A Missouri rep and 2 senators just got the same letter. (different name of course). You know what they say: "Plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery"

[jakeswensonmt]

The media drives the public to this with their misinformation, and propoganda.
I just watched a "news" cycle on one of the Obama propaganda networks (MSNBC.) Not a word about the AWB, just more glowing Obama butt-smooching and lies.

[Vanya]

did you all see the follow up story

I think this is what maestro pistolero was referring to in his post on media propaganda, about which he's quite right, BTW.

Of course, this still leaves the question of who's feeding the media this "OMG GUNS ARE GOING TO MEXICO!!" stuff...

[Wildalaska]

Do ya love the infighting here:

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/pelosi-tosses-cold-water-on-reviving-assault-weapon-ban-2009-02-26.html

Pelosi knows there is an election cycle coming up and she wants to keep her seat..

Attention corrupt dealers in the great southwest.....they know who you are, watch indictments come left and right

WildcloseemdownAlaska ™

[USAFNoDak]

Hasn't Senator Reid been publicly opposed to reinstating the AWB?

I don't know. If he has, I haven't seen it. I guess I made the mistake of "assuming" he'd follow suit with the democratic leadership and sign onto it. I guess we'll have to see. Does anyone have any examples of public statements made by Dingy Harry regarding assault weapons and the banning of same?

[bclark1]

That sure came a lot faster than I expected. Not surprising, but I thought they'd wait a bit to gage next election prospects and make this either an end-of-term or second-term initiative. I don't take Pelosi's resistance as an indication she's suffering from an acute infection of common sense, but rather that she realizes the smorgasbord powergrab going on is burning all the Dem's political capital about two years too early.

Hopefully the bill would/will get smacked down. I don't want to bank on getting a ruling favoring bayonet lugs and pistol grips.

So who's going to give Gaffemaster Joey a buzz and let him know that Beretta makes hi-cap handguns and carbines? (Are we still in violation for talking politics if the administration forced the hand? It's only self-defense, right? :p)

[Mike Irwin]

"The Second Amendment," said the attorney general, "is certainly not designed to arm and give fire power to organized crime abroad."


And I don't recall our Constitution being written in a manner conducive to helping a foreign nation control its criminal elements when, in fact, they have never been able to do so.

[rantingredneck]

To the President:

President Obama:
I am a registered Independent who did not vote for you. I am willing, however, to give you a chance make good on your promise to "change" Washington and usher in a "post-partisan" era. In short, you have an opportunity to gain my trust.

I am writing to express my concern at the announcement by Attorney General Holder that the Administration will be seeking renewal of the so called "assault" weapons ban. As a firm believer in the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution as recently affirmed by Heller, I encourage you to do all possible to block any legislative efforts aimed at infringing this constitutionally protected right.

As you know, such laws only serve to impact the rights of those who are law-abiding in the first place. Not even the Federal Bureau of Investigation could find any evidence that President Clinton's 1994 AWB did the slightest thing to make Americans safer by reducing crime.

Now we're being told that not only would a new AWB make America safer, it would also help make Mexico safer by supposedly interdicting the supply of firearms to that nation's drug cartels. Since when is Mexico's inability to control its own internal crime problems a recipe for Americans to surrender even more of their Second Amendment rights? Since when do drug cartels purchase fully automatic weapons and hand grenades in the US? This is pure misinformation and propaganda by the Mexican government to give them political cover for their failings. I will not pay for that by giving up my constitutionally protected rights. I am appalled that a sitting United States Attorney General would repeat such misinformation so readily and place the wishes of a foreign government above the Constitution he swore an oath to protect.

I appreciate your consideration and support in this matter.



To Senator Richard Burr (NC-R), Representative Howard Coble (NC-R) and Senator Kay Hagan (NC-D)



I am writing to express my concern at the announcement by Attorney General Holder that the Administration will be seeking renewal of the so called "assault" weapons ban. As a firm believer in the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution as recently affirmed by Heller, I encourage you to do all possible to block any legislative efforts aimed at infringing this constitutionally protected right.

As you know, such laws only serve to impact the rights of those who are law-abiding in the first place. Not even the Federal Bureau of Investigation could find any evidence that President Clinton's 1994 AWB did the slightest thing to make Americans safer by reducing crime.

Now we're being told that not only would a new AWB make America safer, it would also help make Mexico safer by supposedly interdicting the supply of firearms to that nation's drug cartels. Since when is Mexico's inability to control its own internal crime problems a recipe for Americans to surrender even more of their Second Amendment rights? Since when do drug cartels purchase fully automatic weapons and hand grenades in the US? This is pure misinformation and propaganda by the Mexican government to give them political cover for their failings. I will not pay for that by giving up my constitutionally protected rights. I am appalled that a sitting United States Attorney General would repeat such misinformation so readily and place the wishes of a foreign government above the Constitution he swore an oath to protect.

I appreciate your consideration and support in this matter.



I cribbed a bit from Mike Irwin (apologies Mike, but it was good) :D.

[USAFNoDak]

Mike Irwin posted:

"The Second Amendment," said the attorney general, "is certainly not designed to arm and give fire power to organized crime abroad."


And I don't recall our Constitution being written in a manner conducive to helping a foreign nation control its criminal elements when, in fact, they have never been able to do so.

Then how is the 1st amendment and the 5th Amendment supposed to apply to foreign terrorists we capture, Mr. Holder? I believe AG Holder is guilty of being hypocritical.

[Willie D]

Holder seems like a loose cannon.

I'd like to think the Democrats in the House and Senate are aware of how tenuous their lead is and how many of those seats they just won are from areas that won't re-elect someone who bans guns.

[Vanya]

Does anyone have any examples of public statements made by Dingy Harry regarding assault weapons and the banning of same?

Ya don't need statements. Senator Reid has voted against every iteration of the AWB. See the link here (http://www.nodc.us/REID01.htm).

He's from Nevada, fergoshsakes.

[USAFNoDak]

Ya don't need statements. He's voted against every iteration of the AWB. See the link here.

He's from Nevada, fergoshsakes.

I stand corrected. Maybe Dingy Harry will have a "come to Jesus" meeting with Obama and Holder and tell them to "stifle this nonsense". Let's hope so. I apologize to any gun owners from Nevada who support Harry Reid for my inaccurate assumption above.

[azredhawk44]

Attention corrupt dealers in the great southwest.....they know who you are, watch indictments come left and right


Yeah, we've got lots of class 3 dealers doing a brisk trade in new full auto weaponry and grenades down here...:rolleyes:

AZRedhawkdidyoureadthedescriptionofthegunbattles?thisisZetasandexMexicanmilitarydoingthefightingwiththeirowngear44

[flippycat]

http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/02/26/lott_holder_gun/


February 26th, 2009 1:11 PM Eastern
A New Assault Weapons Ban Will Not Reduce Crime In This Country

By John R. Lott, Jr.
Author, “Freedomnomics“/Senior Research Scientist, University of Maryland

It is pretty hard to seriously argue that a new so-called “assault weapons” ban would reduce crime in the United States. Even research done for the Clinton Administration couldn’t find that the federal assault weapons ban reduced crime.

There are no academic studies by economists or criminologist that find the original federal assault weapons ban reduced murder or violent crime generally. There is no evidence that the state assault weapons bans reduced murder or violent crime rates –and there’s even some evidence that they may have caused murder to actually rise slightly. Since the federal ban expired in September 2004, murder –and overall violent crime rates– have remained virtually unchanged.

If Holder thinks that it is so easy to control drug gangs’ access to guns, one way to show it is by proving that he can stop drug gangs’ access to drugs.

In fact, when the assault weapons ban went off into the sunset in September 2004 there was no explosion of murder and bloodshed as gun control advocates feared. Immediately after the law expired murder rates fell and they fell more in the states without state assault weapon bans than the states with them.

But yesterday, Attorney General Eric Holder offered a new justification: “I think that will have a positive impact in Mexico, at a minimum.”

Mexico does have a horrible drug gang problem. Despite Mexico’s strenuous efforts, they haven’t been able to stop the flow of drugs into their country on their way to the United States.

The problem is that even if all our guns disappeared in the United States, there is no more reason to expect the flow of guns to Mexico to stop than there is to believe that we can stop the flow of drugs.

The drugs that these gangs sell are extremely valuable. They want to protect these drugs not only from the Mexican government but also from other gangs. Just as these gangs have a huge incentive to smuggle in guns, they have a huge incentive to smuggle in the guns used to protect them.

Even island nations — such as Ireland, Jamaica, and the UK — that can’t remotely begin to blame their crime problems on the United States have seen large increases in murder rates after gun bans at least in part because of increased drug gang violence.

If Holder thinks that it is so easy to control drug gangs’ access to guns, one way to show it is by proving that he can stop drug gangs’ access to drugs. No one should hold their breath for him to accomplish that task.

John Lott is the author of Freedomnomics and a senior research scientist at the University of Maryland. Click here for an archive of Mr. Lott’s previous FOXNews.com columns.

[bclark1]

I don't recall our Constitution being written in a manner conducive to helping a foreign nation control its criminal elements when, in fact, they have never been able to do so.

But it's not not written to say that, either! Durr! Wait, what? :confused:

It's an interesting justification that they might be invoking to circumvent the domestic constraints on their power. Perhaps a shared international policy, treaty or [tinfoil hat] new continental order would make gun bans more reasonable. While the supremacy clause has been interpreted in a couple court cases to preclude treaties eroding constitutional protections, it could still be an attempt to hide the ball and come up with new justifications. It's not impossible to thwart precedent with a couple new tricks and aggressive wordsmithing.

A long shot, for sure. But I can't see why else they would harp on this, as I have trouble believing it's really an issue that deserves any airtime in terms of its scale in comparison to all the crime in Mexico, and in view of our pressind domestic issues.

[Wildalaska]

Yeah, we've got lots of class 3 dealers doing a brisk trade in new full auto weaponry and grenades down here..

Come on Az, you know dang well there are a bunch of corrupt dealers feeding this crap

WildandhtefedsknowittoAlaska ™

[vranasaurus]

A few questions for anyone that buys this Mexico nonsense:

Why would Mexican Cartels settle for semiautomatic weapons when they can easily get the non-nuetered versions?

Why doesn't Mexico enforce their own gun laws? If those laws worked wouldn't it stand to reason that these gangs wouldn't have weapons?

Why doesn't Mexico stop the flow of drugs and illegal immigrants from coming across our borders? If they expect us to stop guns shouldn't we expect them to reciprocate in some way?

If cartels can smuggle drugs, wouldn't they also be able to smuggle guns?

[azredhawk44]

Come on Az, you know dang well there are a bunch of corrupt dealers feeding this crap


Yep, and one of them just down the road from me about 3 miles got shut down a couple months ago.

But he still wasn't selling the full auto rifles or the grenades. Maybe some AR's, SKS's, AK's and handguns, but that's it.

I don't see that there's a lot of reason to get anyone's knickers in a twist over our domestic weapons supplies and their relation to Mexican drug wars until Mexico can control its own military-apportioned arms supply. Considering the heavy recruiting that the Sinaloa/Gulf/Zeta groups do with current Mexican military and the high level of corruption or defection, our guns are the least of their problems.

Mexico, control your own guns before you start pointing fingers at us.

AZRedhawkZetasalsouseradiojamminggearagainstminutemenpatrolsandBP44

[Kreyzhorse]

If you are not an NRA member, join. Join today to send the Congress a solid message. I don't care what you think of the NRA. Hold your nose, if you have to, but become a member.


This is some of the best advice I've seen on here ever. I'm already a member, but now is a great time to donate a few extra bucks to the cause.

[Wildalaska]

Why would Mexican Cartels settle for semiautomatic weapons when they can easily get the non-nuetered versions?

Ar15 plus machine shop equals M16 in 20 minutes. Same with AK

Why doesn't Mexico enforce their own gun laws? If those laws worked wouldn't it stand to reason that these gangs wouldn't have weapons?

Because they are corrupt

Why doesn't Mexico stop the flow of drugs and illegal immigrants from coming across our borders? If they expect us to stop guns shouldn't we expect them to reciprocate in some way?

Becasue they are corrupt

If cartels can smuggle drugs, wouldn't they also be able to smuggle guns?

They do. They straw man guns from dealers in the US. They buy them at gun shows in the US.

Let go of the gunwoobie. Crritical thinkers KNOW there is a problem with corrupt FFLs down there feeding this trade. So do the Feds. We may differ on the solutions, but lets not pretend the problem exists.

I could solve a good deal of the problem without even changing the law

WildbecauseiusecommonsenseAlaska ™

[Wildalaska]

Mexico, control your own guns before you start pointing fingers at us.

You know, I could care less what goes on down there. But if in any fashion we are contributing to the problem (and it becomes a problem for uswhen it spills over to the US), then we need to stop it.

No man is an island, etc.....

Yep, and one of them just down the road from me about 3 miles got shut down a couple months ago.

Good. Lock him up

WilditsbetterfortherestofusAlaska ™

[ronto]

Pelosi says lay off on guns FOR NOW...(The people have been bending over long enough and need a chance to heal before the next round of socialism and Federal government control of our lives).

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Ar15 plus machine shop equals M16 in 20 minutes.

You know, I see antis make that same argument but I've yet to see the machine shop that can put metal back onto a bolt carrier, hammer, sear, trigger and disconnector. I guess they could always machine their own M16 parts and add them to an AR15; but that is certainly not a 20 minute job and any machine shop sophisticated enough to do it will have no problem producing automatic weapons from scratch.

The government is already sharing NICS data with the Mexicans and has been for several years now. We already have the laws in place to stop this, all we need to do is enforce those laws. We hardly need new ones.

[jakeswensonmt]

Let go of the gunwoobie. Crritical thinkers KNOW there is a problem with corrupt FFLs down there feeding this trade. So do the Feds. We may differ on the solutions, but lets not pretend the problem exists.

I could solve a good deal of the problem without even changing the law

But let's try to at least admit what the REAL problem is.
Hint: It isn't the availability of guns, legal or illegal.
It's the illegal drug business, fueled by huge profits, created by decades of prohibition and the "war on drugs."
As long as this huge illegal profit incentive exists, the problem will persist.

Oh, and the other problem, the porous border and the hordes of illegal mexicans crossing it.

[vranasaurus]

WildAlaska,

The problem is all of this activity is already illegal. Banning a bunch of semi-auto rifles in the US will do nothing to slow the flow of arms into the hands of the cartels.

This has nothing to do with the gunwoobie. I did not say anything about corrupt dealers as there are certainly corrupt dealers selling to straw men but that is already illegal. You can't make it anymore illegal.

The problem I and many others have is the AG insinuating that an AWB will stop the flow of weapons into Mexico. Since the activity they are trying to stop is already illegal is there really a need for more laws. You said yourself that the laws for combating this are already on the books.

As you mentioned Mexico is corrupt and needs to fix its own house before they demand others do it for them. We should certainly demand an end to the corruption. Corrupt government officials looking the other way can certainly make it very easy to smuggle arms.

[Wildalaska]

As long as this huge illegal profit incentive exists, the problem will persist.

Oh, and the other problem, the porous border and the hordes of illegal mexicans crossing it.

There isnt the political will to end Prohibition. The porous border causes political strife.

Does anyone really object to flooding the SW states with FFL auditors? Hows about smiling ATF agents in a booth at every gun show?

presence. The good guys wont be bothered, the bad guys will either stop or get caught.

But its easier to screech for a ban, or screech against enforcing laws.

WildsimplesolutionAlaska ™

[ftd]

What is most interesting to me is that you can no linger find the story on ABCNews.com unless you have the exact link directly to the article. I searched the site every way I could think of (author, article headline, quotes from the story), but it was missing. Is this now a coverup for something that has embarassed the Obama administration? I have emailed ABCNEWS and asked why I can't find the article.

[Wildalaska]

WildAlaska,

The problem is all of this activity is already illegal. Banning a bunch of semi-auto rifles in the US will do nothing to slow the flow of arms into the hands of the cartels.

This has nothing to do with the gunwoobie. I did not say anything about corrupt dealers as there are certainly corrupt dealers selling to straw men but that is already illegal. You can't make it anymore illegal.

The problem I and many others have is the AG insinuating that an AWB will stop the flow of weapons into Mexico. Since the activity they are trying to stop is already illegal is there really a need for more laws. You said yourself that the laws for combating this are already on the books.

As you mentioned Mexico is corrupt and needs to fix its own house before they demand others do it for them. We should certainly demand an end to the corruption. Corrupt government officials looking the other way can certainly make it very easy to smuggle arms.

You arent paying attention to what I am saying.

WildtryagainAlaska ™

[vranasaurus]

I don't think you understand what I am saying.

A new AWB will not stem the flow of guns into Mexico. No matter what laws you pass in the US, guns will still get into Mexico.

[Wildalaska]

A new AWB will not stem the flow of guns into Mexico. No matter what laws you pass in the US, guns will still get into Mexico.

Actually, thats not true. Eventually, drying up the supply will help.

But again, thats not the issue. Read again what I am saying.

WildtheeasyanswerAlaska ™

[vranasaurus]

Actually, thats not true. Eventually, drying up the supply will help.

This is only true if the cartels in Mexico can't get weapons anywhere other than the US.

[azredhawk44]

WA:

Introducing heavy-handed F-troop tactics into gun shows is not the answer, unless the question is "how can we further alienate Arizonans and the FedGov during a democratic administration?"

I'll tell ya right now... the vast majority of private transfers I've seen at Phx gunshows involve the presentation of driver's licenses and/or CCW permits. We aren't likely to take kindly to somebody attempting to forcibly intercede in a transaction that a casual observer can obviously discern as a conscientious transaction.

Several dozen ATF troops swooping down on gun shows? Bad idea. Recipe for confrontation.

Several dozen ATF troops augmenting BP at border checkpoints or flying surveillance for illicit southbound gun running traffic? Much more valuable. And doesn't the ATF have the highest per-capita of amateur pilots out of all federal law enforcement agencies? Sounds like a fantastic use of their resources.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Actually, thats not true. Eventually, drying up the supply will help.


Well, since a new AWB wouldn't do jack to dry up the supply even if it totally banned the manufacture of any new semi-automatic weapon, I'd say that his statement was totally true.

[jakeswensonmt]

ftd:
What is most interesting to me is that you can no linger find the story on ABCNews.com unless you have the exact link directly to the article.

It's still there, just not on the main page.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/

[Wildalaska]

Introducing heavy-handed F-troop tactics into gun shows is not the answer, unless the question is "how can we further alienate Arizonans and the FedGov during a democratic administration?"

Who is asking for heavy handed. Just a booth? Sort of like the cop on the corner.:D

I am more concerned about the dealers actually, since they screw things up for the rest of us.

WildauditthosebastidsAlaska ™

[vranasaurus]

How bout we militarize the border? Every vehicle that crosses, in either direction gets searched for guns, drugs, and immigrants.

[maestro pistolero]

Actually, thats not true. Eventually, drying up the supply will help.

That could take a very, very long time, and the powerful cartels will simply start getting AKs from third world. This approach to Mexican gun control is even more absurd and futile than the so-called war on drugs.

If you want to measure our likelihood of success in stemming the flow of guns even in to this country, post any new AWB, we need only examine our success rate in stemming the flow of illegals and millions of tons of drugs.

If the demand is high enough, the drugs, illegal immigrants, and guns will flow into and out of Mexico, and the US, in wholesale fashion.

[azredhawk44]

auditthosebastids

I don't like the idea of deliberate scofflaw dealers, but the ultimate problem is the straw purchaser, not the dealer.

Dealers can't know every purchaser that comes in. Just can't happen. There are dozens and dozens of gun stores in the Phoenix area, and were I the straw purchasing type, I could buy one gun a week to give to my drug buddies at a profit and not hit the same store again for a year.

Even if I have only a dozen stores I run my straw purchases thru, I won't end up at the same store again for 3 months.

How many repeat customers do you get every 3 months, WA? I have a hard time going 3 months without buying a gun to add to my collection.

The straw purchase elimination point is squarely in the hands of NICS and the ATF, seems to me. They should be able to see the same buyer hitting multiple or the same stores on a high volume basis, follow the 4473 trail at each of the stores, and notice that "Lucita Delacruz" is buying half a dozen Glock 19's a month.

Then the ATF can work with FBI or DEA and see if little Lucita has known associates with bad histories. Tail her for a bit and act if necessary.

Believe me... those of us down here who do sell guns from time to time in FTF transfers are not selling to illegals or drug runners. I've been asked for a CCW Permit to qualify for a purchase before, and I've also asked for them myself when selling.

God forbid the ATF does actual police work against bad guys rather than just stomping around at gun shows or hauling every byte of data possible back to their desks so they can datamine NICS for some poor sucker who just owns a lot of guns...

AZRedhawkpelosisaidenforcementfirstsoletsgetonthat44

[Wildalaska]

I don't like the idea of deliberate scofflaw dealers, but the ultimate problem is the straw purchaser, not the dealer.

Bull hockey pucks:D....straw men are so easy to spot its pathetic

Dealers can't know every purchaser that comes in. Just can't happen. There are dozens and dozens of gun stores in the Phoenix area, and were I the straw purchasing type, I could buy one gun a week to give to my drug buddies at a profit and not hit the same store again for a year.

Those are the hard ones, agreed....and that is the job of ATF to ID those guns and talk to the shops nicely. But thats not theway they do it, they are far more blatant than that....

How many repeat customers do you get every 3 months, WA? I have a hard time going 3 months without buying a gun to add to my collection.

I try to know everybody by name :)

The straw purchase elimination point is squarely in the hands of NICS and the ATF, seems to me. They should be able to see the same buyer hitting multiple or the same stores on a high volume basis, follow the 4473 trail at each of the stores, and notice that "Lucita Delacruz" is buying half a dozen Glock 19's a month.


So we agree that audits are important?

WildiguesswedoAlaska ™

[vranasaurus]

I don't have a problem with the ATF checking dealers.

I have a serious problem with a new AWB.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I don't have a problem with the ATF checking dealers.

I believe under the current law ATF is limited in how often it can conduct dealers outside of an active third party investigation. This was a result of the 1986 FOPA. Prior to that, ATF had determined that while revoking an FFL's license was very difficult, it was no problem at all to audit him repeatedly until he went out of business (http://www.guncite.com/journals/hardfopa.html#fn175).

On a side note, reading the footnotes of that article is like some kind of Orwellian nightmare. Can you imagine someone comes to you and asks you to make an illegal machinegun, you call the ATF to report them and YOU are the one who gets arrested and charged in court?

[vranasaurus]

I believe under the current law ATF is limited in how often it can conduct dealers outside of an active third party investigation. This was a result of the 1986 FOPA. Prior to that, ATF had determined that while revoking an FFL's license was very difficult, it was no problem at all to audit him repeatedly until he went out of business.

That is why they do investigations. They can trace crime guns from the manufacturer to the dealer. If a certain dealer has a very high rate of guns used in crimes or found across the border it would certainly be cause to look over the dealers records.

Doing all of that has nothing to do with an AWB other than the fact that what the AG says he wants to stop with the AWB is already ilegal under current law so there should be no need for the AWB.

[bclark1]

Of course we need to find anyone who breaks laws - FFLs or pimps or credit frauders. But the fact some other country sucks and can't take care of its business shouldn't be our reason to do so, or change our level of motivation. The Netherlands aren't going to ramp up how fast they spend their tax dollars vetting their "coffee shops" because it creates headaches for our customs agents when kids are coming home. Nor should Canada step up their traffic enforcement because some under-21 US citizens might get drunk up there and then create a problem when they head home.

The thread's kind of spun off way into left field. Whether enforcing the existing laws more enthusiastically is the right thing to do or not (and as always: why can't we just enforce the "don't hurt people" law and forget about guns?) - the point here is that this is a pretty sorry excuse to reinstate an unconstitutional ban that failed to bear fruit the first time. I guess these folks just want to be remembered as the "second chance" administration, willing to try anything that history shows won't work.

[USAFNoDak]

It's wrong headed thinking by Holder, no matter his agenda, which I believe is to make the ownership of guns so onerous as to reduce the number of people who are willing to submit to the pain to own one. That's the real target with him, no pun intended.

Also, what's to stop the drug cartels from switching to shotguns with 00 buck shot. That's a dangerous gun in a shootout. Yes, you can only hold 5 or 6 rounds in most of them, but each round fires multiple lead balls. With 3 inch or 3.5 inch magums, you get pretty decent velocity as well.

As people have stated however, the drug runners have lots of cash and can easily buy full auto weapons, RPG's, grenades and other weapons. A US assault weapons ban would be like mowing a 640 acre sod farm with a walk behind reel mower with respect to addressing the crime problem in Mexico.

[rantingredneck]

With 3 inch or 3.5 inch magums, you get pretty decent velocity as well.


Actually as shell length increases, velocity goes down in most cases (Magnum = more lead not powder), but your point is still valid. 9-18 .33 caliber pellets with each pull of the trigger.

Don't give Holder any ideas about my beloved scattergunwoobies though......:eek:

[rantingredneck]

why can't we just enforce the "don't hurt people" law and forget about guns?)

Because then our elected representatives would have to actually hold a job, because there wouldn't be as much for them to "work on" in Washington.

[ElectricHellfire]

Is anyone really surprised? This is the "Hope" and "Change" I expected with this new administration. Looks to me like the Dems will be able to shove whatever they want to down our throats whenever they feel like it since they just pushed through the spendulous with very little relative problem.

High rhetoric and blustering is just about all the Republicans have left. And we all know what that's worth. The few Republicans that do have a spine are too few in number to avoid being steamrolled. This, along with other things, is why I am no longer a Republican.

Not to be alarmist but you better get em while you still can IMO.

Sad but expected.

[ftd]

jakeswensonmt,

Thanks for setting me straight - I didn't notice the "Most Popular" box. I still can't find it as a search but maybe that's because it hasn't been archived because it is so popular. Anyway, so much for my conspiracy theory. I stand corrected.

[jimpeel]

From the ABC story:

"Some recent Mexican army and police confrontations with drug cartels have resembled small-unit combat, with cartels employing automatic weapons and grenades," the warning said.

So are we shipping them grenades also? Lord knows how many of those are in private American hands just itching to ship them to Mexico.

Automatic weapons would be unaffected by the AWB as they already have their own set of regulations.

The ABC page has a "Comment and Contribute" section so make sure you all comment and contribute -- like it would do any good anyway -- but we can try..

[ratshooter]

Does anyone besides me wonder if Obama and Holder and all the other Dems might have bought stock in in the gun and ammunition companies and are now reaping the rewards for scaring the sh*t out of everyone?

Didn't the terrorist sell all thier stock before 9/11 and then buy it back a couple of days later when it was cheap?

Am I the only one to smell a Rat hear?

[alloy]

Mexico, schmexico....this was coming and everyone knew it.

[zxcvbob]

Holder's already been spanked for it by Pelosi (she's just probably mad that he tipped his hand this early) and not getting any support from Obama nor Biden.

Stay vigilant, but there's no need to panic yet.

[Mike Irwin]

OK, this looks to have been a false alarm, the Attorney General talking out his butt without consulting either the President or Congress.

Rumor is that the President is NOT pleased because it's taking attention away from the agenda he wants to pursue, and as we saw, Nancy Pelosi seems to be rather miffed that she wasn't consulted at all.

Very good discussion, and I want to thank everyone for keeping it so pointed and on topic for most of the thread, but at this point it is starting to drift quite a bit, so I'm going to shut this down.

And remember, Eternal Vigilance is the Price of Liberty.

[Al Norris]

Allow me to add, that this does not preclude a future thread in the event something similar occurs.

Thank you everyone.