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U.S.SFC_RET
February 21, 2009, 05:55 PM
I see safety infractions committed on ranges at an appalling rate.

This happened today.

1. Firearms pointed opposite of the target. Too many.
2. Firearms sweeping other people. Too many.
3. Loading magazines behind the firing line alongside the firearm. Posed a tremendous distraction.
4. Approaching the firing line without hearing devices. More than a couple of people.


Recently I went to a range where two parents and their young adult son were. They were shooting a baretta storm. The young adult had the gun pointed to the rear "not cleared" and I told his mother that the weapon should be pointed toward the target. She reminded him. He ignored him. Next thing I know he is absently sweeping that thing right at her. I step in and push it away and said "you need to point it in the safest direction possible and that is down range and pointed torward the target."
"He said it was unloaded."

To the forum: I have seen too many people get killed with unloaded firearms.

I have explained what happened to the range officer.

ammo.crafter
February 21, 2009, 06:02 PM
Keep up the good work. I still remember when I was hit in the face by a pellet that came from an "unloaded" gun. It did sting a bit.

oldkim
February 21, 2009, 07:17 PM
Yes, see this every time I go out. People are very lazy and of course don't know any better.

For the ones that answer back "It's unloaded." I tell them you just violated the first rule of gun safety... Treat every gun as if it's loaded. Second is muzzle control - point in a safe direction (downrange).

It's everyone's job to keep each other safe. Remember anyone can call a "Cease Fire" on any range. If you see a safety violation, at least report it to the range master or safety officer to correct immediately.

Just takes one idiot to shut down a range. Take that extra minute to help those that need it. You just may have helped stop the safety violation or worse from happening in the future.

We need to watch each other's back!

U.S.SFC_RET
February 21, 2009, 07:39 PM
Just takes one idiot to shut down a range. Take that extra minute to help those that need it. You just may have helped stop the safety violation or worse from happening in the future.


Theirin lies the rub. I felt like the world police in the Army. I somehow still do and definitely don't want to when it comes to "policing these ranges". The ranges I go to are the ones I want to go to. The infractions happen and in my opinion should be stopped by anyone with enough common sense to see it.
We are preserving our heritige in doing so. We are reminding others that there is a responsibility along with the freedoms we have.
these ranges are getting too few and far in between enough as it is. It is either that or purchase the private land. It is a civic duty to teach others to accurately shoot firearms with the confidence to do so and conduct the art safely.

dirty magazine
February 21, 2009, 08:29 PM
This happened today.

1. Firearms pointed opposite of the target. Too many.
2. Firearms sweeping other people. Too many.
3. Loading magazines behind the firing line alongside the firearm. Posed a tremendous distraction.
4. Approaching the firing line without hearing devices. More than a couple of people.

What do you mean by #3? Is the safety violation that they have ammo and a firearm behind the firing line?

When I reload at the indoor range, I lay the cleared and open pistol on the platform, pointed downrange, and reload at the platform at the firing line. Should I be doing this differently?

Thanks in advance

Double Naught Spy
February 21, 2009, 08:31 PM
3. Loading magazines behind the firing line alongside the firearm. Posed a tremendous distraction.

If the person is loading the magazine behind the firing line, then he obviously isn't handling a gun, so what is the safety infraction?

oldkim
February 22, 2009, 01:46 AM
Indoor ranges differ from outdoor ranges and one indoor or outdoor range will differ from another.

Indoor ranges usually has motorized targets so typically you don't go cease fire to set up targets. The line is hot and you just simply attach your targets and start shooting.

Outdoor ranges usually have target stands so everyone needs to stop firing so you can put out targets. So, going to the bench when the line is cold is just bad.

It usually takes 3 things for an accidential discharge:
1) A gun
2) Ammo (loaded gun)
3) YOU

Take any one of the three out and you most likely can't make the gun go Bang! Remember all guns are treated as loaded so really it's YOU that is the main part to take out of this equation.


So, now for #3. The violation is not loading magazines but having a firearm behind the main firing line. Some ranges will have two benches. The firing line bench - where you can shoot from and one behind. At these ranges having or handling a firearm is just bad because someone is in front of you.

My argument is this to anyone that thinks they are safe to do this. Let me play with my 400 Corbon behind you. I'm an instructor and safety officer. Do you trust me? Well, you shouldn't and no instructor in there right mind will do this to a student.

Take a lessons learned from our friend the DEA agent firearms instructor a few years back while teaching a classroom full of students. His statement was "I'm the only one in this room that can handle this... BOOM!" Just shot himself in the leg.

So, you have to look at where and what the physical layout of each range is that you are shooting at. Each will have rules specific to that range because of the limitation or layout of the range. Some will be obvious and make sense some you'll have to think about and some simply don't make sense. It's there for a reason - your safety.

If you see a safety violation - you need to step up and as best you can help the other person see the light. Don't yell just let them know. If they continue you need to alert the Rangemaster.

Texas1911
February 22, 2009, 02:03 AM
I'm an RSO at a popular local indoor range and I see more than my fair share of idiocy.

Dr. Strangelove
February 22, 2009, 02:28 AM
I see safety infractions committed on ranges at an appalling rate.

You sure got that right. I want to add a little personal experience to this thread:


I just got through cleaning guns from my latest, and maybe last, public range trip here in GA. I'm joining a private range because I am fed up with with people who refuse to learn/follow safe firearms handling rules.

I shot today at Charles Elliot WMA (Wildlife Management Area) range near Mansfield, GA. It's an outdoor 100yd rifle and 25/50 yd pistol range with covered benches. Saturday is a bad day for the public range (I noticed it's the only day the DNR officer working the range wears his sidearm..) It was extremely crowded, I went to the pistol range because it had the shortest wait. The two worst violations of the many I saw were as follows, with two very different outcomes:

The bench to my left, three guys and a girl, all early 20's age-wise. Ak style rifles, some 1911's, they were rapid firing and having fun, but safe. If you want to burn up $20.00 worth of ammo in 6 seconds, go for it, as long as you are safe. They were. Till the girl got hold of a small auto. (Not beating up on women shooters, just, she was the one who did the following) I'm adjusting my scope, back to the next stall, when suddenly I hear "WHOA WHOA WHOA! Don't point that way!". I glance over my shoulder, yep, pistol pointed straight at my back, loaded & cocked. As I was turning to tell her exactly where I was fixing to stick that little gun, all three guys just laid into her about what she had just done, then apologized to me. Still shouldn't have happened, but they recognized and corrected the situation. Just teach her proper handling before going to the range next time, guys...

Next one, bench on my right. Guy my age (mid 30's) shows up, wife/girlfriend and 3 kids. He's got one of the most complicated home-made target stands I've ever seen, really Rube Goldberg looking. I compliment him on it, we chat for a second, I go back to loading a magazine, looking for more cartridges in the shooting bag, whatever I was doing at the time. Suddenly, I hear screaming from all directions! People screaming "Go cold! Cease fire!" His wife screaming at everyone "Don't shoot! Can't you see he's putting a target up?" This fool had just walked out onto a hot range , with people actively firing to set up a target. Incredulously, he just kept on going and set his target up. The whole firing line was just staring at him and each other, then about everyone explained, some rather rudely why what he had done was wrong. Just after this, he starts pulling pistols from his bag and removing magazines, locking back slides, etc. - all while pointing them directly down the firing line! Everyone just kind of ignores this, I pack up and leave, all the while getting icy stares from his wife. Guess we hurt their feelings.

I'm sick of it. I'm tired of constantly having muzzles pointed at me, hearing "Get some" followed by a 30 round burst into the ground ten feet in front of the firing line, with ricochets whizzing everywhere, accompanied by maniacal laughter. If you want to unload that clip safely in 4 seconds, fine, just let me know. I'll get out of the way so I don't get 30 hot cases poured down my shirt. Read the posted rules, call "HOT" or "COLD", not "ready to go huntin?" Bring a target, or ask me if you don't have one, I'll be happy to give you one. Rocks, sticks, whatever, these aren't targets. They cause ricochets, bring proper targets or just ask for one.

It's a shame, Charlie Elliot WMA has a nice range, but it's very poorly managed. Someone is going to get hurt or killed. Wilson Shoals WMA range is not as nice, but is extremely well managed. No handling of firearms during "Range Cold" is tolerated, none. No loading magazines, nothing.

This is the kind of crap that got most of the public ranges closed in GA. Until recently, most every WMA had a range. People shooting inappropriate targets, (glass bottles, tv's, microwaves, propane canisters (full), etc.), people drinking while shooting, people shooting up all the signs, benches, and other fixtures are what got them all closed; along with all the unsafe behavior in general.

Well that was quite the rant! To be fair, this range is a very nice facility, as are all the state owned ranges in GA, and we are lucky to have them. If you can go through the week, it's a very different environment, but most of us don't have that luxury. Pointing out my own failures, I should have pulled the guy aside from his wife and kids and mentioned the dangers of what happened, and what could have happened to him, along with a general review of the range rules. I feel badly that I chose to leave instead of helping him. Also, I would not have "told the girl where I was going to stick that pistol", I would have just asked her to please not point firearms at anyone, or anything she didn't plan to shoot. I also realize that those who read this post probably aren't the ones who need educated. I have/will help anyone at the range, I've met many great folks at public ranges, and seen/shot many far nicer firearms than I own. I'm also glad to let anyone shoot any of mine as long as they do it safely. However, I'm done with the wild west crap. I get far to little shooting time and it's hard to concentrate on shooting when you're wondering if the person on the next bench is going to put an extra hole in your body. I will and have pointed out safety violations and gotten the range officer involved, but I'm also there to relax and enjoy myself. Having to police the entire firing line is not why I'm there, and not something I feel I should have to do. I will be calling the Department of Natural Resources and voicing my concerns.

Double Naught Spy
February 22, 2009, 08:47 AM
So, now for #3. The violation is not loading magazines but having a firearm behind the main firing line. Some ranges will have two benches. The firing line bench - where you can shoot from and one behind. At these ranges having or handling a firearm is just bad because someone is in front of you.

My argument is this to anyone that thinks they are safe to do this. Let me play with my 400 Corbon behind you. I'm an instructor and safety officer. Do you trust me? Well, you shouldn't and no instructor in there right mind will do this to a student.

The infraction was not stated as handling a firearm behind the line. The infraction was for loading magazines behind the line next to a firearm. If you are loading magazines, you aren't handling a firearm. The reason given for the infraction was that it posed a distraction.

You can play with your ammo all you want behind me, no problem, but not your gun.

dirty magazine
February 22, 2009, 10:27 AM
Thanks for the clarifications. I shoot at indoor ranges with just the bench in front. I've never had the luxury of the second bench.

Croz
February 22, 2009, 10:33 AM
My local range (indoor) requires you to check in and verify your weapon is unloaded until you reach the firing line. The other day, someone came in and pulled his gun out and said it was unloaded. BOOM! Suddenly, there's a hole in the floor.

(Of course, it could be argued that if he hadn't been required to show his gun, then it would have stayed in his bag until he got to the firing line and never would have gone off, but I've never heard of an accident that didn't involve an 'unloaded' gun.)

U.S.SFC_RET
February 22, 2009, 11:19 AM
All it takes is one tragedy.

If the person is loading the magazine behind the firing line, then he obviously isn't handling a gun, so what is the safety infraction?
Because of the frequency of safety violations I observe. I seen this shooter load his magazines within 2" of his pistol on top of his opened case. Shouldn't he place the pistol on the table at the firing line and load the magazines there?
I should not have to watch him to see if he is going to place the magazine into the pistol.
The first thing I do is observe the range around the firing area. What do I look for? Bullet holes. In the ceiling in adjacent walls in the floor. Lights shot out. All of this have been observed.
There should be a sense of respect when it comes to firearms. What you don't want to see is a tragedy.

oldkim
February 22, 2009, 08:53 PM
It takes 3 things for an accident to happen.

1) A gun
2) loaded gun
3) YOU

So, it is a safety infraction in my book as the person may not be handling that firearm behind you but he'll most likely will. This breaks rules #1 and #2

#1 Always treat a gun as though it's loaded
#2 Always have your muzzle pointed in a safe direction

That muzzle is pointed at ... You or someone else.

Loading on a second bench is not the issue. It having a gun out behind others, regardless if they are handling it or not. It's out and it shouldn't be. It belongs on the firing line or cased where a finger or anything else can't get to it.

So, if you do have a double bench range. Only handle (uncase or even touch your gun) on the firing line bench not the back one.

On another note:
When you open your case - where is that muzzle pointed?
If it's not pointed down range - DON'T touch it.
What to do: It's really simple. Close the case, turn the whole case so the muzzle of the gun is now pointed down range, now open the case and now handle your firearm.

Casimer
February 22, 2009, 09:50 PM
I tend to agree with the 'no loading at the bench rule' - though very few ranges that I've been to have one, or enforce it if they do. It's difficult to distinguish, from a distance, the guy who's conscientiously loading from others who are handling their firearm. And A LOT of people have the habit of handling their 'unloaded' firearm when the line is cold.


re: public range safety

Several public ranges in PA have been closed due to the sorts of problems that people are describing here. Things just got too hairy. Our public ranges are typically run by our state game commission, and they just didn't have the resources to man a/o redesign these to ensure they were operated safely.

spacemanspiff
February 25, 2009, 08:07 PM
I've seen shooters trying to run downrange while it was hot.
Trying to shoot while it was cold.
Unleashed dogs running downrange.
Small toddler run past the firing line.
A rangemaster ND'ed into my stapler sitting on the bench while trying to put the boot back on the trigger of his garage-built racegun.
A shooter trying to wave the flys away from his face, while holding a loaded pistol.

Double Naught Spy
February 25, 2009, 08:45 PM
Because of the frequency of safety violations I observe. I seen this shooter load his magazines within 2" of his pistol on top of his opened case. Shouldn't he place the pistol on the table at the firing line and load the magazines there?

Not necessarily or unless it is a range rule. Otherwise, there isn't a safety violation but just something you didn't like. You are just worried it is going to be a safety violation and hence are calling it a violation.

Shane Tuttle
February 25, 2009, 09:56 PM
A shooter trying to wave the flys away from his face, while holding a loaded pistol.

You're not talking about Wildalaska's first outing with a Nagant, are you?:)

While we're at it nit-picking the OP's statement to death on semantics, why don't we take it to a whole new level? Why don't we change rule #1 back to it's original form: All guns are always loaded, not treat them as if they were.

Now we can give credit back to the OP since a loaded gun is now facing the backs of the people on the firing line and eventually it has to be picked up. Then, we can really make this valid as a big distraction.:rolleyes:

And THEN, we can roll this thread downhill by arguing the true intent of rule #1 in pragmatic fashion....


I haven't had too many issues at my gun ranges. The indoor pistol range is rather shallow spaced between the firing line and the wall behind us. Usually, there's two people sharing a lane with multiple pistols (guilty) and it gets cozy. However, with the business picking up briskly the past year, the owner has an RO observing closely most of the time. The worst "infractions" I've seen is people giving terrible instruction to new gunowners. I have a real hard time biting my tongue (go figure:eek:).

The outdoor range actually invites a calmer atmosphere and open communication is common. IMO, this ultimately invites greater respect for your fellow members' safety.

U.S.SFC_RET
February 26, 2009, 06:54 AM
When the infraction are taking place at a frequent rate and you happen to notice more than a few people are more than casual when handling firearms in a busy indoor firong range. You get a hightened sense of being alert. Posting opinions are opinions. A large percentage of the clientele present that day were far from the seasoned gun handlers. Having been in the situation I can't see how an opinion can help explain.
I have had seen tragedies happen before due to the lack of respect for the firearms and the demonstration for it showed quite well that day. All firearms should be up on the firing line and cleared. No firearms and ammunition should be handled together behind the firing line especially without a range officer present. When you have inexperienced shooters present accidents will happen in the form of negligent discharges.
Time works against negligent ranges. Time works against us who should be proper ambassadores when it comes to safe handling.

Deet
February 26, 2009, 06:57 AM
My range is pretty safe, the Range Master has a microphone and gives verbal commands to unload the gun, remove mags, lock open the action and step behind the yellow line. Then he visually looks up and down the line before he turns on the really big flashing red light. Then we can change our targets and not approach the shooting bench. Sounds really safe, but on saturdays all hell usually breaks loose. AD's, ND's bullets hitting ground and the concrete roof. (it is an outdoor range) And just last saturday a yahoo with a jammed & loaded gun trying to clear it while pointing along the firing line. The gun was a 30-06 pistol with what looked like a safe door bolt on the back, if it would have went off several people would have been hit. I calmly told him to point it downrange-spent the next 3 minutes arguing with him. Man some people are just too stupid. This has happened more than once to me, this was just the most recent. Please remember the four rules, we all want to return home in one piece.

ritepath
March 1, 2009, 08:44 AM
People really need to spend some time in the field rabbit and/or bird hunting with groups of people and dogs to learn proper gun safety.

Ian0351
March 1, 2009, 06:11 PM
Are a lot of fun right? sure... I go to one because I don't want to pony up the cash to join my local private range, but I'm getting closer everyday. I like to shoot to improve my marksmanship, lately I've been using my Mosin-Nagant M44 at about a hundred yards, trying to practice my basics and get tighter groups. So, every 5 rounds I like to check my targets, reload the internal magazine, make any adjustments necessary to my weapon or position, and begin again. This has the side benefit of stretching out my time at the range and reducing the cost of ammunition per hour. Unfortunately, many of the idiots who utilize this free, unsupervised public land range (which doesn't even have benches, just an old gravel pit) don't know what ceasefire or cold range means; many a time I am walking the long 100 yds to my stand up target when some jackass starts popping off his "AR'd" 10-22 or 'nine' at targets only 30-40 feet away from me! Of course I always let everyone know that I am heading downrange and request that they check fire, usually after waiting several minutes for everyone to finish their current evolution. They seem to think if they are not pointing 'at me' then I will be safe downrange; funny how they never add up how many rounds they fire and how many holes are in the coffee can when they leave. It's probably because they never check their targets or throw them away responsibly when done, opting to leave them at the site with all their discarded brass.

I have started going on weekday afternoons, and only shooting if I am the only person there or I know the other shooters and respect their shooting discipline. Pretty soon the state is probably going to close the range down altogether, due to dozens of shot up tvs, thousands of unpoliced shotgun shells and brass casings (a huge pet peeve of mine), and millions of potential injuries. I guess then I'll be forced to come up with a couple hundred bucks to join the Evergreen Sportsman's Club... and drive 45 minutes each way to fire off 10 dollars of 7.62x54R.

Crankylove
March 2, 2009, 12:22 AM
I was done going to public ranges a few years ago. There are half a dozen within 20 min drive, but only one I would go to, and that one closed. My issue wasn't only other shooters doing idiotic things with loaded weapons, but the range officers (not all officers, but enough)who like to play god. Saving empty lanes for their buddies when there is a line of a dozen people who have already paid waiting for a bench; not allowing shooters to pick up brass so that they personally, not the range, can collect and sell it; allowing friends to shoot high power rifles on on the pistol and rimfire only ranges; and kicking me off of benches after I paid and started shooting, because they regular shooting buddy decided to hit the range that day. Between Joe blow sweeping me with loaded firearms and range officers making up the rules as they go, I said goodbye to the public ranges and now head out to BLM or Forest Service land to do my shooting.

SwampYankee
March 2, 2009, 12:05 PM
For all these reasons I belong to a private club where most people only shoot skeet. I go to the pistol/rifle range at 9 am on weekdays and only twice have I ever met someone on the range, and I was packing up both times. People are stupid and I hate trusting my life to stupid people. The $200 a year I pay to belong to the club is well worth accident prevention (assuming I don't blow myself up- then I am just going to bleed to death and die).

Ian0351
March 2, 2009, 01:59 PM
Swamp Yankee-
I am getting closer and closer to paying up every year... I think the range I want to join is $75 initiation fee, $75 per year and $85 per year if you don't volunteer 2 weeks of range maintenance and supervision. It just sucks because you have to pay it all up front the first time around. It's still better than being shot by a wannabe gang-banger with a MAK-90!
I have recently gotten my girlfriend interested in shooting and I don't want to expose her to all the bad habits and environmental dangers where I shoot now, and I certainly wouldn't want to bring a child there. Also, I would like to have some new shootin' buddies; all my reservist buddies live way out in the sticks so we only get together to shoot couple times a year.

My870inVT
March 5, 2009, 09:15 PM
yea unloaded right, i remember once i was shot in the throat with a competition grade air rifle (1270 fps doens't feel good...)

also much scarier i pulled the trigger on a friends nine millimeter after firing nine rounds... turns out it was a 9 +1 clip. thank god i was aiming down range when i checked, but with a limp wrist i dropped the gun. that was the last time I ever failed to check the chamber.


I will say know having learned from my mistakes.... I am definately the first one of the group i shoot with to speak up when there is a safety infraction. I have made some friends very unhappy by telling them that they are done for the day after they sweep the standing area.

Creature
March 6, 2009, 03:22 AM
To the forum: I have seen too many people get killed with unloaded firearms.

How many specifically?

(I know...just one is too many.)

Huey Long
March 6, 2009, 04:10 AM
Approaching the firing line without hearing devices. More than a couple of people.

I can understand why you'd be peeved about the others, but what harm does this do you or anyone else?

Creature
March 6, 2009, 08:08 AM
Approaching the firing line without hearing devices. More than a couple of people.

...venturing into nanny-state territory. I also dont think it should be mandatory by law to wear a seat belt or a motorcycle helmet.

Ian0351
March 6, 2009, 12:05 PM
Ear plugs, helmets, seatbelts and condoms; while responsible, are a personal choice. I personally usually don't wear ear protection when I shoot. I didn't in the service and I don't now, I would rather be used to the report from my weapon. Honestly, I think playing rock shows and shooting 83mm rockets did the majority of the damage to my ears, and I haven't failed a hearing test yet.

oldkim
March 6, 2009, 12:57 PM
Yes, to be young and stupid. Too bad we all get old and wiser (and deaf too).

It is your choice to take simple protection - precautions to protect your ears, eyes and the rest of your health. Don't follow in our foot steps in becoming deaf, blind and even worse.

Your young now but believe me if you live any longer you'll get old. When you get old the simple joys in life is all that is left so take a few steps to protect them because you only get one body. Yes, I'm sure by the time your old they may have come up with transplating your brain into a new body but until they do that you only get one - take reasonable care of it.

Mortars? Try an M1 main battle tank. It's a bit louder.

Ginger
March 6, 2009, 11:28 PM
"Ear plugs, helmets, seatbelts and condoms"

Which one is not like the other ones?

You can't hurt someone else by not wearing your earplugs, helmet, or seatbelt.

Casimer
March 7, 2009, 01:12 AM
Don't follow in our foot steps in becoming deaf, blind and even worse.

+1


I don't want to be a nag - BUT a common effect of unprotected exposure to gunfire is chronic subjective tinnitus. Subjective Tinnitus is the perception of a constant noise when none exists.

It's often a perceived as ringing sound, or a hissing or roaring noise. Severe cases have been known to motivate people to suicide. It's really not something that you want to deal with.

I'd actually developed this as the result of repeated ear infections as a kid. Fortunately I was young enough that I was able to learn to block it mentally. But if I'm sedated (e.g. drunk, given pain killers, or near sleep) it comes back. And when it does, it's very difficult to think.

So the moral of my story is, just wear ear protection - otherwise you'll go crazy and want to kill yourself :eek:

hogdogs
March 7, 2009, 04:51 AM
I am guilty of a heinous firing line offense and I freely admit this in hopes it helps just one person in my shoes or a "down the line" shooter. No one needs jump me for this as I flogged myself as did the RM. I had a shotgun and a .38 revolver and my son of about 12 or so at the range. RM called a routine cease fire to change targets. I and junior swapped out the targets as did the others on the line and I am awaiting the range to go back hot and in my INCOMPETENCE and joy to finally be out shooting I FAILED to notice junior had reloaded the .38. He wasn't aware of the "EMPTY ALL GUNS, ACTIONS OPEN" rule of the range and likely didn't hear it declared with plugs and muffs on. Clearly a violation but the zone had no one still on the grass when he fired a round on our target but it was not a good thing....
BTW this is the first time I have shared this in public...
Brent

Vanya
March 7, 2009, 12:34 PM
You can't hurt someone else by not wearing your earplugs, helmet, or seatbelt.

Actually, I'd just as soon not have my tax dollars paying the lifelong medical expenses of the fools I see riding without helmets, some of whom are going to wind up with severe brain injuries... same can be said of seatbelt use, I think. There are different kinds of "hurt."

Which leaves earplugs... unprotected exposure to gunfire will result in hearing loss. It's just a matter of when, not if... and your family will think it sucks when they can't have a normal conversation with you because you can't follow what they're saying. There are different kinds of "hurt."

Tuzo
March 7, 2009, 12:57 PM
Ear and eye protection is related to range safety as much as safe firearm handling. A piece of metal hitting an eyeball while shooting and resultant involuntary reaction can be dangerous to those nearby. What is heard too often is "it's my life," "it's not dangerous," "mind your own business," "never hurt before," "independence," among others. The best is "you have to die sometime" which is undeniably true and a favorite of smokers, but the issue is not when you die but whether you die peacefully or suffer with an injury or lung cancer for a long time prior to death.

A telling example of not wanting to wear eye protection occurred when I taught high school physics. Teenagers, forever concerned with appearance when among peers, were reluctant to wear dorky and clunky safety glasses during lab periods. After a speck of sodium was dropped into a pan of water with a dramatic reaction and spattering of water my students wore safety glasses without complaint.

So, don't wear ear protection and suffer annoying deafness. Don't wear eye protection and risk eye damage or blindness. Be "a man," whatever that may mean to you, and risk your health and the health and safety of those nearby.

Elvishead
March 7, 2009, 01:18 PM
U.S.SFC_RET


4. Approaching the firing line without hearing devices. More than a couple of people.

Call me out of line, but I always try to keep a full hot loaded .357magmun ready just for these people. I know it's mean, but ha, I live in Vegas, the King of rude.

Ginger
March 7, 2009, 05:22 PM
What?

U.S.SFC_RET
March 7, 2009, 07:24 PM
I have stopped people from going into "hot" indoor ranges without hearing protection. This happened the very same day all the other safety laws were infracted upon as mentioned in the first posting.
I sincerely don't believe I will be attending that indoor range and will allow my membership to expire. It is not worth the effort.

Ian0351
March 8, 2009, 03:15 AM
Mortars? Try an M1 main battle tank. It's a bit louder.

Not mortars (those are 81mm) but HEAT rockets... way louder. Not as loud as an M1A1 by a long shot.

FWIW I do wear a seatbelt in my car... but I don't require or mandate said behavior for anyone over 18 who rides in it... your life, your choice.

Are you going to stop in the middle of combat to emplace ear plugs? Do you Stalk an animal in the brush with ear plugs in?

Vanya
March 9, 2009, 01:33 PM
Are you going to stop in the middle of combat to emplace ear plugs? Do you Stalk an animal in the brush with ear plugs in?

Assuming these are serious rather than rhetorical questions, I believe that combat troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are issued air-valve type earplugs. I'm sure that other members who have BTDT know more about this than I do, and also have opinions about how well they work. The principle, however, is a good one. And plenty of people who hunt use either the air-valve plugs or the electronic muffs which block impulse noise. Some say the latter give them more ability to track game, not less.

If you look at the hearing protection sticky in the General Discussion forum, you'll find a lengthy discussion of these issues.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200072

And, yeah, as Tuzo noted above, eye protection is just as important, which is why both are mandatory at many ranges.

Huey Long
March 9, 2009, 01:46 PM
Yes, to be young and stupid. Too bad we all get old and wiser (and deaf too).

It is your choice to take simple protection - precautions to protect your ears, eyes and the rest of your health. Don't follow in our foot steps in becoming deaf, blind and even worse.

Your young now but believe me if you live any longer you'll get old. When you get old the simple joys in life is all that is left so take a few steps to protect them because you only get one body. Yes, I'm sure by the time your old they may have come up with transplating your brain into a new body but until they do that you only get one - take reasonable care of it.

Issues of hearing damage aside, I always wear ear plugs (or at least a couple shells stuck in my ears) simply because the sound of loud gunshots right near me hurts my ears. I always have.

Actually, I'd just as soon not have my tax dollars paying the lifelong medical expenses of the fools I see riding without helmets, some of whom are going to wind up with severe brain injuries... same can be said of seatbelt use, I think. There are different kinds of "hurt."

Those "fools" pay taxes just like you and some of them probably aren't too happy with some of your lifestyle choices. I say live and let live.

TEDDY
March 11, 2009, 08:29 PM
some of you must be southern as you sound like the I do my thing and the el with you.yes I come from the north and I belong to a pistol indoor club.we even have a reloading room.infractions like have been posted would be grounds to be expelled.eye and ear protection is manditory.if the gun is not pointed at the target you get a warning,nextime your out.400 members and none have been kicked out.no one wants the disgrace as no club will take them.and there is no combat or cowboy .it is a bullseye target shoot and many are very good shoots even the women.we have had several national champians.and I know what hearing is as my wife is always upset as i cannot hear her unless she is right there.I have been shooting since the late 1930s
I have a number of trophys.but I was also a machine gunner in WW2 and shot high power before WW2 when there were no earmuffs.
be an ideot but when you kill some body theres no going back.:rolleyes:

fatboy02
March 11, 2009, 09:37 PM
I was at an outdoor range that I belong to, doing my range portion of CPL class when we got down to the pistol range (right next to the 50 yd range) ther was a couple of guys sighting in a .22 with one downrange next to the target "spotting impacts". He was less than 6' from the target

Yes they were done after that my instructor had a few words with them.

Ben Towe
March 13, 2009, 04:48 AM
Something I've seen alot is new shooters that have just fired their first shot grinning like a mule eatin sawbriars and spinning around with the gun pointed to look at their buddies. Of course their buddies are ducking and falling to get away from the swinging gun. The problem is that we expect new shooters to know the basics right out of the box and many don't. I've made it a mental note to mention this to the next new person I take shooting.

A note about eye and ear protection: All through my younger days I refused to wear it thinking it was "sissy" or some such nonsense. I still don't wear eye protection like I should but I virtually always wear ear plugs or muffs since I'm 23 and already have tinnitus. It's not severe but it can get annoying at times. Of course I also have a fair amount of hearing loss to go along with it. So wear some plugs!

Stuohn
March 27, 2009, 12:27 AM
When I lived in Texas I went to the range often and the range officers (for the most part) were pretty much on top of things. I've seen some people do some stupid things though. The least safe would have been a guy walking down range during live fire. The most disturbing thing I've seen was a guy posting pictures of (I'm assuming) an ex on target. Both told to leave immediately.

Double Naught Spy
March 27, 2009, 07:46 AM
I have stopped people from going into "hot" indoor ranges without hearing protection. This happened the very same day all the other safety laws were infracted upon as mentioned in the first posting.
I sincerely don't believe I will be attending that indoor range and will allow my membership to expire. It is not worth the effort.

Given your apparent stress over this stuff, I can see why. It is probably best for everyone that you do.