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doh_312
February 20, 2009, 11:01 PM
I've been hearing that Mexico is really becoming a rough place. Police are openly attacked many times with millitary grade weapons. RPG'sm, grendades, M60's. A big area of conflict is a boarder town in Mexico that feeds many illegal things, mostly drugs, up I25. I25 just happens to run right into my part of Colorado. Considering a worst case where some Mexican drug cartel guys get into my neck of the woods. I only carry a couple pistols, against a few guys with full autos and who knows what else, I feel superbly out-gunned. Of course I'll **** my pants and try to run away against those odds but if bullets are flying and running isn't an option I will fight like hell. I'm considering carrying my shoty in vehicle, and hoping it is accessible in a situation, and that I have enough amo. Using a shoty leads to more problems for me, because no doubt a fire fight will draw our fine boys in blue to the scene. Plenty of them, and they'll be armed and ready to shoot first so they go home to their families. (I subsribe the same mentality) So I'll need to contact 911 dispatch and alert the police that I'm a good guy. Which will be difficult trying to plink bad guys with a 12g at the same time. I see a tough situation here. If your response is that this situation will never happen, I'm paranoid, all I need is a wheel gun and no reloads, you needn't respond. So here's my question, what would you guys do to prepare for something like this? Or, for those of you who actually carry a reload or two, or a back up gun, would u feel comfy holding position with a pistol until the po-pos show?

dieselone
February 21, 2009, 12:11 AM
Something like "the only use for a pistol is to fight your way to where your rifle is stashed".

A old Clint Eastwood western: "when a man with a pistol goes up against a man with a rifle, the rifle wins." Eastwood's character made some steel armor so he could take on a rifleman.

burnera
February 21, 2009, 05:23 AM
You shouldn't have to worry about that situation for another five years.... probably. :D
If you really have to fight, a pistol will be worthless. Even with a rifle, being outnumbered like that, you should duck out and run.

If something like this ever happens that far into the states, either 1) the US declares war on mexico the next day or 2) you were involved in something shady.

THEZACHARIAS
February 21, 2009, 06:22 AM
If they have automatic weapons, you're gonna be stuck blind firing around a corner to keep them from advancing on you, hoping the police get there before you're out of ammo. A shotgun would help, but getting it would probably involve covering open ground under heavy fire (which is no bueno).

Best you can do is be aware of your surroundings; good cover, blind spots, approaches and exits, etc. If anything happens, youll be able to pick where you make your stand. I wouldnt worry about the cops as long as you identify yourself and dont point a weapon at them. Lesson one in law enforcement is to assess the situation and address the biggest threat (ie the bad guys with machine guns).

But given the number of crimes of that caliber, and the number of concealed carriers in CO (meaning you probably wont be the only one fending off the meth jockeys), your odds of surviving are better than you think. Still not great, but better.

Deaf Smith
February 21, 2009, 12:34 PM
It's just not a rumor. Real the papers. Plenty of info on it. Google 'Mexico narco' or such and you will real alot on it.

I suggest a good light carbine in your car or truck. I don't really care what it is as long as it's reliable, you can shoot it well, and it's legal.

Also a cell phone, first aid kit that can handle gunshot wounds, good powerful flash light, blankets, and fire extinguisher.

If you have a CCW, carry your weapon!!! Hopefully you can get to your rifle in time.

You are far more likely to just see the aftermath and help those injured (and that's the reason for the firstaid kit, cell phone, fire extiuisher, etc...

But, if things go bad, you still have your weapons.

natjohnb
February 21, 2009, 12:34 PM
I've been hearing that Mexico is really becoming a rough place. Police are openly attacked many times with millitary grade weapons. RPG'sm, grendades, M60's. A big area of conflict is a boarder town in Mexico that feeds many illegal things, mostly drugs, up I25. I25 just happens to run right into my part of Colorado. Considering a worst case where some Mexican drug cartel guys get into my neck of the woods. I only carry a couple pistols, against a few guys with full autos and who knows what else, I feel superbly out-gunned. Of course I'll **** my pants and try to run away against those odds but if bullets are flying and running isn't an option I will fight like hell. I'm considering carrying my shoty in vehicle, and hoping it is accessible in a situation, and that I have enough amo. Using a shoty leads to more problems for me, because no doubt a fire fight will draw our fine boys in blue to the scene. Plenty of them, and they'll be armed and ready to shoot first so they go home to their families. (I subsribe the same mentality) So I'll need to contact 911 dispatch and alert the police that I'm a good guy. Which will be difficult trying to plink bad guys with a 12g at the same time. I see a tough situation here. If your response is that this situation will never happen, I'm paranoid, all I need is a wheel gun and no reloads, you needn't respond. So here's my question, what would you guys do to prepare for something like this? Or, for those of you who actually carry a reload or two, or a back up gun, would u feel comfy holding position with a pistol until the po-pos show?

You only have one option, really.

You will need to dual-wield your pistols throwing out as much lead as possible as you tactically exfiltrate to the nearest mall.

Once you are in there you can flash your CCW badge at the nearest security guy and he will then direct you to the mall tactical security team area where you can load up on some serious firepower.(full-auto M4s, grenades, tactical sniper rifles and mp5s)

I'm sure the mall security reaction team will be happy to assist you in their armored electric assault cart as you go to fight off the Mexican Drug Cartel Hoard.

Creature
February 21, 2009, 12:52 PM
So here's my question, what would you guys do to prepare for something like this? Or, for those of you who actually carry a reload or two, or a back up gun, would u feel comfy holding position with a pistol until the po-pos show?

The only preparation you, or any of us, can possibly do is to carry a reliable weapon that you are intimately familiar with, keep your head on a swivel, look for that second avenue of escape where ever you may be at that moment,...and, like rule #23 of the USMC Rules of Combat stipulates: Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill every one you meet.

chris in va
February 21, 2009, 01:09 PM
I also read Phoenix had over 300 kidnappings either last year or in a year's timespan.

I really am concerned about Americans living along our southern border. Yikes.

FlyboyTx
February 21, 2009, 03:26 PM
We live relatively close to the Mexico border, and within 100-200 miles of prime terrorist targets (Houston, Dallas). Relatives who live and work in South Texas and frequently cross into Mexico say the media reports aren't the half of it, and that conditions on the ground--depending on location--are actually worse. And it's coming our way.....but if the rounds begin to fly, so will I--in the other direction--but if we have to turn and fight.....

Since 9/11, in each of my 2 vehicles there rides what I (and others) call a "72-hour Kit."

Each kit contains sufficient food supplies (and food procurement ability), water (or water making equipment), medical supplies, fire making ability, shelter, etc, for two people for 72 hours--widely accepted as the amount of time needed before "help" from the "gub-ment" would arrive.

Both of my vehicles are AWD, enabling me or sweetie to evacuate or make tracks away from a threat in either vehicle at any time--even off road if required. Both are maintaned at 1/2 tank of fuel or more at all times.

The "food procurement" ability consists of a three-gun battery (pistol, rifle, shotgun) in the lower compartment of the 36" wheeled duffel containing the kit in each vehicle. There is only enough ammo for immediate personal self defense...er, food procurement...less than 200 rounds total.

Battery 1 (mine): XD-45 and 4 mags, Springfield M1A1 w/modified Choate folding stock and 4 mags, Mossberg 500 w/pistol grip and 25 rounds.

Battery 2 (sweetie): XD-9 Sub-compact and 4 mags, Bushmaster M4 carbine and 4 mags, Mossberg 500 w/pistol grip and 25 rounds.

With the two kits ready 24/7 we have 72 hours' supplies for 4 family members, with a "zero notice" evac. Even 30 minutes notice would allow us to gather family members (pre-planned), add food and fuel cans, ammo containers, combine both 72-hour kits into one vehicle and launch...wherever we needed to go with about a 1,000 mile range.

Oh, and yes, Virginia, in a state where travel is measured in hours v. miles, 1,000 miles (about 15 hours) can be a day trip.

The sun has riz,
The sun has set,
And here we is
In Texas yet.

FBT

Only S&W and Me
February 21, 2009, 07:51 PM
Get an AK 47 and lots of ammo!

eric75
February 21, 2009, 09:15 PM
Beware, the anti's (including the Mexican Government) are saying the guns come from the north side of the border.

This might explain the extra news coverage for something that may have been going on for a long time.

Just my uniformed opinion.

Deaf Smith
February 22, 2009, 07:09 PM
Beware, the anti's (including the Mexican Government) are saying the guns come from the north side of the border.

Yea, and they also say grenades, machineguns, and RPGs are bought at the gunshows!

I'd like to know where those gunshows are! Never seen one and it would be might interesting. Like do they tape the pins in the grenades at the door? Do they allow loaded LAWS? Can you swap an M-60 for a MAG?

Like I said, it would be a interesting gun show!

U.S.SFC_RET
February 22, 2009, 07:42 PM
If you ever have to face full auto fire. Count on several things. There stands a very strong chance that whoever is conducting said full auto is not trained by highly qualified professionals.
They do not know how to conduct close quarter combat.
More likely it will be a surprise and hit tactic.
Get cameras and post them on your property. Get an alarm that notifies you that someone is approaching your residence if feasible.
Get a good German shepherd dog and Train that dog. One bump in the night and let that dog go first.
More than likely full auto will not be as accurate as you would think it to be.
It will be terrifying. Hit the ground and hit cover. Cover means no penetration. The corner of a house means you can return fire with a shotgun so learn how to shoot right handed and left handed and be proficient with either side. Proficiency is easier than you think. It does take practice. The spread of a typical shotgun is about one inch per yard of travel from the muzzle. If you don't have a shotgun then get one and pattern it. Stock up on 00 buck. I suggest you learn how to use and fight with a shotgun. They didn't call those things a trench clearer for nothing.
Accurate fire from a dependable rifle will kill a man who wants you dead and just as dead whether he is shooting full auto or not.
The main thing he wants is the element of surprise. You don't give it to him.

doh_312
February 23, 2009, 12:43 AM
Excellent replies guys. I want to go live with FlyboyTx, he's really got his s*** together. I think I'll try to mirror your 72hr kit. I already keep the gas tanks at 1/2 or higher. I'm buying a 4WD vehicle soon. Deaf Smith, I do have my CCW and I carry at least one gun with two extra mags daily. Sometimes I have two or even three guns on me. I'll definatly be moving a shotgun to my car. I don't have any rifles yet, besides the .22, so I'll look into that. THEZACHARIAS it is indeed true that CO issues a lot of CCW, and I do hope I'll habe a fellow CCW around in bad time. Hopefully they are just as good with their gun or better. Creature, I like your knowledge of the USMC rules. That #23 made me chuckle but I do like the sound of that planning. Anything that makes you more prepared in defensive situation is a good thing. burnera, absolutely I'm running, if possible. And I absolutely hope it doesn't take an incident like that for our Gov't to get into action about this whole border issue. Again thanks for the feedback guys, I feel like I can prep much better now.

Nnobby45
February 23, 2009, 01:00 AM
If you really have to fight, a pistol will be worthless. Even with a rifle, being outnumbered like that, you should duck out and run.


What a great mindset. They're too heavily armed. I don't have a chance with my pistol. Give up before the fight starts, and succumb to psychological surrender if it does.:rolleyes:

There's no one here who knows what they'll be armed with in the unlikely event that Mexican drug transporters come our way, and the even less likely event we'll find ourselves fighting it out with them. They tend to kill each other, but yes, innocent folks can certainly be caught up in it.

Wait until the country of Mexico, that's riddled from top to bottom with hopeless corruption, collapses and the narco traffickers take over the country (sounds like they have already along the border). What's already happend in Phoenix will happen in many parts of our country as the narco wars and those fleeing from the violence spill into our country in huge numbers and fan out in different directions.

Texas LE is preparing for such an event as we speak.:cool:

MatBananas717
February 23, 2009, 01:22 AM
Beware, the anti's (including the Mexican Government) are saying the guns come from the north side of the border.

Quite a few of them do, actually. Not the RPGs or GPMGs that some cartels use, but they have bought stuff like FN Five-Sevens and PS90s through relatives living in Texas. There are all kinds of stats going around about just how much of the stuff they have is of American origin (meaning, bought originally in American gun stores), but I've heard Mexican police officials citing figures everywhere from 50% to 90%.

It's not just the cartels buying the guns, either; Mexican civilians who are unable to buy guns in their country are also finding ways to purchase guns north of the border so that they can have them for self-defense.

Also, I live in Austin, TX, and I occasionally hear people at the ranges where I shoot talking about how they've seen tattooed Mexican dudes going to local FFLs just to window-shop, and then a second later, some Latina comes in and buys the same gun that he was seen looking at earlier. I dunno how many Texas FFLs have had this experience...

ronl
February 23, 2009, 02:07 AM
Your greatest asset in any confrontation is your own brain. Keep your cool, assess the threat and move accordingly. In the situation you mentioned I'll give you the same advice as I gave to a newspaper reporter I gave basic weapons training to before he left for Iraq: Find the closest cover you can, make yourself very small, and return fire only if fired upon. If the situation you find yourself in bothers you much, I'd get an AR and keep it handy.

grey sky
February 23, 2009, 02:18 AM
Mexican police officials reports of anything should be looked upon with great skepticism.
As I recall the head fo the Mexican equvalent to the DEA was living in a house owned by the largest Cartell in Mexico for that matter our guys were "suprised" by the news when it was found out.

onthejon55
February 23, 2009, 11:27 AM
In case of a 'Red Dawn' scenario like you just described i would just try to make it home. Theres no reason you should be able to run to yr vehicle ans get out of dodge ASAP. Drug cartels are not in the business of laying waste to randome people for no reason. If they make it all the way to Colorado they have a very specific reason for being there and im guessing you arent it. Once yr at home just wait. The police/military will have it taken care of in no time.

David Armstrong
February 23, 2009, 12:41 PM
I'll second the above. Unless you have some reason to be dealing with them, the drug cartel could care less about you and won't bother you. If you should get caught in a mess between two groups in conflict, don't draw attention to yourself by getting into the sitaution, just hunker down and get out of when possible.

dbgun
February 23, 2009, 01:18 PM
I also read Phoenix had over 300 kidnappings either last year or in a year's timespan.

I read something along the same lines (maybe the same article), which really ****** me off, until I read further about how 90% or 95% (don't recall exact percentage but it was very high) were americans that were had dealings in the past with the drug cartels. If you run with the wrong crowd, bad things will happen to you.

supergas452M
February 23, 2009, 08:50 PM
Don't worry, we will never let them get past Albuquerque.;)

doh_312
February 23, 2009, 10:03 PM
Attaboy supergas! I don't run with any drug crowds so I'm not worried about them specifically targeting me. More worried about getting caught in crossfire or something gone terribly wrong.

Nnobby45
February 23, 2009, 10:50 PM
It isn't just the drug trade. It's also the trafficking in illegals. Those who have participated have seen their family members kidnapped and held for ransom.

I suggest that those who think that we shouldn't be all that concerned because it's happening to Mexican nationals involved in illegal activity think again. It's going to affect all of us. The illegals mentioned are moving into regular 'ol American neighborhoods where full auto gunfire has erupted on more than one occasion. Children of illegals (read kidnap victims) and our kids go to the same schools.

Interesting that, in Phoenix, Sheriff Joe Arpaio has been successful in conducting raids and sending illegals to jail or back to Mexico. This includes drug dealers and other criminals.

Also interesting that the Police Chief of Phoenix won't allow his officers to have rifles even though they have to respond to incidents involving full auto weapons.

Interesting, and disgusting, that the Mayor of Phoenix, as well as the ACLU, has petitioned members of Congress to investigate Sheriff Arpaio for rights violations.

Saw Joe on Fox news today, and he says he's going to write letters to 4 members of a certain Congressional committee and invite the gas bags (my terminology:D)to come to Arizona and learn a little about which they're mouthing off (that's me again:D).

While inmates in the Maricopa jail are forced to wear pink underwear (otherwise they steal it), I wonder if the Mayor, the Chief, and the feminized little men of the ACLU, don't wear pink underwear by choice.

doh_312
February 26, 2009, 01:09 PM
I agree, it isn't just drug trade that worries me. Human trafficing is a big issue. Just the fact they are here illegally is enough to worry. I saw a story in the new where an American citizen and his two sons were shot and killed by an illegal from the south. The illegal rolled as a gang member and packed an AK in his vehicle. It is theorized this was a road rage incident. Cant ask the victims-dead. Cant ask the shooter, disappeared with out a trace as so many illegals can and do. If I remember correctly this happened in Cali. Yet another testament to how gun control is protecting us citizens. To be fair the illegal had quite the jump on the family- Full auto coming from behind. But I like to think at least I'll get a shot or two back at him and though I'll probably die, I can try to take him with me or keep the others in the vehicle alive. Alas, Cali wouldn't have let them carry a weapon. From what I hear, the only reasons Cali issues CCW is if your a politician or judge who is threatened, or a female who is already a victim of a sexual predator. That is why I dont live in Cali.

TINCUP AL
February 26, 2009, 01:21 PM
If you want information on how bad it is on the border, check out this link. It is unbelievable to me that we don't here more about this in the news. No doubt, it is a war zone.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=155&t=826610

Ruthless4christ
February 26, 2009, 11:12 PM
Yeah and obama says that more gun control here will help stabalize the air down there, as they supposedly buy guns here and take em down there. Just take a look at that picture and see if it looks like they need guns from us

garryc
February 26, 2009, 11:56 PM
Beware, the anti's (including the Mexican Government) are saying the guns come from the north side of the border.


I think they come from Venezuela in order to make money for a very poor economy and to destabilize a country on the U.S. border. I'd like to see some of those weapons to see if they have Chinese or Russian marks.

Nisei
February 27, 2009, 12:20 AM
Don't worry, we will never let them get past Albuquerque. -supergas452M

That's very true, especially the South Valley. The poo will definitely hit the fan down there.

FrontSight
February 27, 2009, 01:12 AM
That story was interesting, but also full of biased lies regarding the source of the guns...

skoro
February 27, 2009, 11:06 AM
I live just a few short miles from the border. The situation in Mexico is probably more precarious than any of you imagine, and it's certainly much more unstable than it's being reported in the news media here in the states. Mexico is imploding. The Mexican federal government has rather tenuous control over a number of cities where the drug cartels are strong. The cartels have so much money that many federal troops and law officers are bought and paid for by the drug lords. They wear the uniform, but they're loyal to their paymasters.

Crime is so rampant and apprehensions so rare that many otherwise law-abiding folks in Mexico are now engaging in petty crimes and even kidnapping because they know there will never be any consequences.

While I doubt that the violence will spill over into the US in any big way, it IS the reason that I got my concealed carry license and now pack daily. The drug cartels are not in any way interested in having shootouts with American citizens in the US. The violence they cause here in the States is against their drug rivals or rogue members of their own organization, so far.

But I would caution everyone to stay the hell away from Mexico for the forseeable future. The situation is chaotic, unpredictable, and hazardous. It's a completely different ballgame when you're on their turf. I think any US citizen in Mexico is at risk. For kidnapping or potentially worse.

doh_312
February 27, 2009, 01:10 PM
My girl and I were thinking of having our honeymoon in Mexico. I changed that as soon as I started paying attention to all these stories from the news, but mostly from you first hand experiencers. We've decided to honeymoon here in Colorado. Keep our money spending local, keep our friends and family closer, and we wont have problems keeping our pistols on our hips. Best of luck to you near the border. Keep safe and aware.

Hornett
February 27, 2009, 01:36 PM
That story was interesting, but also full of biased lies regarding the source of the guns...+1
And it came from AR15.com?
Maybe it's a reprint from somewhere else.

edit: Ah, yes it came from Fox News.

Deaf Smith
February 27, 2009, 08:37 PM
The Mexican federal government has rather tenuous control over a number of cities where the drug cartels are strong. The cartels have so much money that many federal troops and law officers are bought and paid for by the drug lords. They wear the uniform, but they're loyal to their paymasters.

And thanks to Mexican GUN CONTROL the citizens, or should we call them serfs or peasants now, can only obey either the Narco-terrorist and their paid off police, or the police/military, which ever is present at that moment.

And that's the kind of situation Obama and the liberals would have us be in!!!

Think of Vietnam and being a villager and you get the picture.

Nemsis
February 27, 2009, 10:10 PM
This is all lies Mexico is a peaceful country none of this stuff is happening only the police and military are allowed to have guns more powerful than a .38 spl. so their is no crime.


Sarcasm off :barf:

A/C Guy
February 28, 2009, 02:13 PM
You shouldn't have to worry about that situation for another five years.... probably.
If you really have to fight, a pistol will be worthless. Even with a rifle, being outnumbered like that, you should duck out and run.

If something like this ever happens that far into the states, either 1) the US declares war on mexico the next day or 2) you were involved in something shady.It already is happening in Az. Recently the Mexican military was over 50 miles north of the border and held the Border Patrol agents at gunpoint for over an hour.
The Feds will not declare war on Mexico.
Many Arizonans and Texans are aware, from personal experience, that you can be minding your own business and be doing nothing illegal or shady, but you get caught in the middle of someone else's gunfight. We have had incidents over 100 miles north of the border; they are on the news at least once every month.

Many people up north like to criticize Sheriff Joe Arpaio for his raids on illegals. But they do not understand the depth and scope of the problem that we face every week. We have freeway shoot outs on a regular basis. Smugglers, coyotes, illegals having shoot outs while racing 80 mph through traffic.

A/C Guy
February 28, 2009, 02:29 PM
onthejon55 wrote:Drug cartels are not in the business of laying waste to random people for no reason. If they make it all the way to Colorado they have a very specific reason for being there and Imo guessing you aren't it. Once you're at home just wait. The police/military will have it taken care of in no time.
Your head must be way up there cause that post was so full of ****. Come live down here for a year and see what it is REALLY like dealing with the illegals and drug dealers. Not only do they not care who they kill, they will kill you just for fun. Most Mexicans believe the U.S. stole Texas and California. They openly say that and say that they will take back everything from San Francisco to Louisiana.

A/C Guy
February 28, 2009, 02:35 PM
Check out this:
http://www.mnforsustain.org/aztlan_los_angeles_mexico_ibd_0505.htm


Raising the ire of illegal-immigration opponents in Los Angeles recently was this billboard advertising a Spanish-language TV news show. It depict two newscasters posed in front of the L.A. skyline, to which a Mexico City landmark has been added. In the words "Los Angeles, CA" above their heads, the "CA" is crossed off and replaced with "Mexico" in bold letters. The other words read: "News 62" and "Your City, Your Team."



Los Angeles, Mexico

Investors Business Daily*
May 5, 2005



Immigration: While California's governor is accused of racism for advocating a secure border with Mexico, a Los Angeles billboard provides a revealing glimpse into the mind-set of those advocating open borders.

In a recent radio interview, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger committed a couple of faux pas (or however you say that in Spanish). First, he said the U.S. government was failing to secure the border with Mexico. Second, he said the Arizona Minutemen, a bunch of old men in lawn chairs, "have done a terrific job."

"Shameful" was the reaction of Nativo Lopez, state national president of the Mexican American Political Association. Schwarzenegger's comments, he said, were "nothing short of base racism."

The Los Angeles Times chimed in with an editorial criticizing the governor for these and other remarks. The newspaper also chided him for failing to see the "humor" in a billboard advertising a Spanish-language newscast.

The billboard, which has since been removed, showed the Angel of Independence, a well-known monument in Mexico City, in the center of the LA skyline, with "CA" crossed out after "Los-Angeles" and the word "Mexico" in bold red letters put in its place (see photo above).

"I think they should take it down immediately," Schwarzenegger said in the radio interview, contending it encouraged illegal immigration. The LA. Times response was to opine that "as someone born and raised in the shadow of the Third Reich, he should know better than to be fanning this anti-foreigner frenzy."

But is insisting that U.S. immigration laws be enforced racist and anti-immigrant? And why, exactly, did Clear Channel Communications and the Spanish-language TV station think the billboard would appeal to their current and potential viewing audience?

The fact is that many Hispanic activists, Mexican citizens and perhaps even members of the Mexican government refuse to accept the legality of our 1845 annexation of Texas, the 1848 Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo after the Mexican-American War, or the 18511 Gadsden Purchase.

One of these activists is Charles Trujillo, a professor at the University of New Mexico. He predicts a new, sovereign Hispanic nation within this century encompassing much of the American southwest and part of northern Mexico. States have the right to secede under our original Articles of Confederation, he contends, and this will be accomplished by the electoral pressure of future majority Hispanic populations in these states.

The Hispanic student activist group known as MECHa, an acronym for Movimento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán (Chicano Student Movement of Aztlán) has spent the last three decades indoctrinating Latino students on U.S. campuses.

It claims that California, Arizona, Mexico, Texas and southern Colorado were stolen and should be returned to their rightful owners, the people of Mexico, under the name "Nation of Aztlán." Aztlán is the mythical place where the Aztecs are said to have originated.

Few caught the significance of the words of then-Mexican President Ernesto Zedillo before the National Council of La Raza in Chicago on July 27,1997: "I have proudly affirmed that the Mexican nation extends beyond the territory enclosed by its borders."

Current President Vicente Fox repeated this line during a 2001 visit to the U.S., when he called for open borders and endorsed Mexico's new dual citizenship law.

A June 2002 Zogby poll found that the majority of Mexican citizens agree with him and hold the view that, since the Southwest U.S. really belongs to Mexico, they do not need permission to enter. The poll found that 58% of Mexicans agreed with the statement, "The territory of the United States' Southwest rightfully belongs to Mexico."

Perhaps it was that audience the billboards were designed to reach.
And a lot more here:
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=mexicans+claim+california+belongs+to+mexico&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
This is the real deal people.

Creature
February 28, 2009, 02:36 PM
And then read this:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h97yJpC0D0M7j_Gc_wOVznqwNtswD968B3F80

Mexican drug violence spills over into the US

By ALICIA A. CALDWELL – Feb 9, 2009

Just as government officials had feared, the drug violence raging in Mexico is spilling over into the United States.

U.S. authorities are reporting a spike in killings, kidnappings and home invasions connected to Mexico's murderous cartels. And to some policymakers' surprise, much of the violence is happening not in towns along the border, where it was assumed the bloodshed would spread, but a considerable distance away, in places such as Phoenix and Atlanta.

Investigators fear the violence could erupt elsewhere around the country because the Mexican cartels are believed to have set up drug-dealing operations all over the U.S., in such far-flung places as Anchorage, Alaska; Boston; and Sioux Falls, S.D.

"The violence follows the drugs," said David Cuthbertson, agent in charge of the FBI's office in the border city of El Paso, Texas.

The violence takes many forms: Drug customers who owe money are kidnapped until they pay up. Cartel employees who don't deliver the goods or turn over the profits are disciplined through beatings, kidnappings or worse. And drug smugglers kidnap illegal immigrants in clashes with human smugglers over the use of secret routes from Mexico.

So far, the violence is nowhere near as grisly as the mayhem in Mexico, which has witnessed beheadings, assassinations of police officers and soldiers, and mass killings in which the bodies were arranged to send a message. But law enforcement officials worry the violence on this side could escalate.

"They are capable of doing about anything," said Rusty Payne, a Drug Enforcement Administration spokesman in Washington. "When you are willing to chop heads off, put them in an ice chest and drop them off at a police precinct, or roll a head into a disco, put beheadings on YouTube as a warning," very little is off limits.

In an apartment near Birmingham, Ala., police found five men with their throats slit in August. They had apparently been tortured with electric shocks before being killed in a murder-for-hire orchestrated by a Mexican drug organization over a drug debt of about $400,000.

In Phoenix, 150 miles north of the Mexican border, police have reported a sharp increase in kidnappings and home invasions, with about 350 each year for the last two years, and say the majority were committed at the behest of the Mexican drug gangs.

In June, heavily armed men stormed a Phoenix house and fired randomly, killing one person. Police believe it was the work of Mexican drug organizations.

Authorities in Atlanta are also seeing an increase in drug-related kidnappings tied to Mexican cartels. Estimates of how many such crimes are being committed are hard to come by because many victims are connected to the cartels and unwilling to go to the police, said Rodney G. Benson, DEA agent in charge in Atlanta.

Agents said they have rarely seen such brutality in the U.S. since the "Miami Vice" years of the 1980s, when Colombian cartels had the corner on the cocaine market in Florida.

Last summer, Atlanta-area police found a Dominican man who had been beaten, bound, gagged and chained to a wall in a quiet, middle-class neighborhood in Lilburn, Ga. The 31-year-old Rhode Island resident owed $300,000 to Mexico's Gulf Cartel, Benson said. The Gulf Cartel, based in Matamoros just south of the Texas border, is one of the most ruthless of the Mexican organizations that deal drugs such as cocaine, marijuana, methamphetamine and heroin.

"He was shackled to a wall and one suspect had an AK-47. The guy was in bad shape," Benson said. "I have no doubt in my mind if that ransom wasn't paid, he was going to be killed."

In July, Atlanta-area police shot and killed a suspected kidnapper while he was trying to pick up a $2 million ransom owed to his cartel bosses, Benson said.

State and federal governments have sent millions of dollars to local law enforcement along the Mexican border to help fend off spillover drug crime. But investigators believe Arizona and Atlanta are seeing the worst of the violence because they are major drug distribution hubs thanks to their webs of interstate highways.

In fact, drug officials have dubbed Atlanta "the new Southwest border," said Jack Killorin, a former federal drug agent and director of the Atlanta region's High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area task force.

El Paso, population 600,000, is only a quarter-mile away from Mexico's Ciudad Juarez, which has seen open gun battles and 1,700 murders in the last year. But El Paso remains one of America's safest cities, something Cuthbertson said is probably a result of the huge law enforcement presence in town, including thousands of Border Patrol and customs agents.

In the past year, more than 5,000 people have been killed across Mexico in a power struggle among Mexico's drug cartels and ferocious fighting between them and the Mexican government. The cartels have established operations in at least 230 U.S. cities, according to the Justice Department's National Drug Intelligence Center.

Payne said the U.S. and Mexico are working together to pressure the warring cartels. Payne cited the extradition of high-level drug suspects — four members of the Arellano Felix cartel in Tijuana were brought to the U.S. in December — and the capture or killings of several other top cartel leaders across Mexico in the past year.

"We have to make sure that we attack these criminal organizations at every level so that we are safer not only in Mexico and on the Southwest border, but here in the rest of the country," Payne said.

While some Americans may feel victimized by the spillover of violence, others are contributing to it. Americans provide 95 percent of the weapons used by the cartel, according to U.S. authorities. And Americans are the cartels' best customers, sending an estimated $28.5 billion in drug-sale proceeds across the Mexico border each year.

Socrates
February 28, 2009, 02:46 PM
The AVERAGE Mexican population in Kali schools is now 48%...We HAVE been invaded...

pax
February 28, 2009, 03:12 PM
I've been watching this for two days, waiting for it to turn into a Tactics and Training discussion, at least tangentally. No joy.

Closed as off topic.

pax