Dems urge import ban. Here it comes

[possum]

This is the beginning.

Get ready.

http://www.kvia.com/Global/story.asp?S=9873215


Dems urge Obama to ban importation of assault weapons

Posted: Feb 19, 2009 01:25 PM

Updated: Feb 19, 2009 06:26 PM

MEXICO CITY (AP) - More than 50 U.S. lawmakers sent a letter to President Barack Obama urging him to enforce a ban on importing assault weapons.

The 53 lawmakers, all Democrats, say many such guns are later smuggled south to arm Mexico's ruthless drug cartels.

The ban was implemented under the administrations of President George H.W. Bush and President Bill Clinton, and the U.S. government can enforce it under provisions of the 1968 Gun Control Act.

But the lawmakers say in their letter that the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has quietly abandoned the ban in recent years. The ATF declined to comment.

The ATF estimates that 90 percent of weapons seized in Mexico come from sources within the United States. Mexico has long demanded that the United States do more to stop the flow of weapons south, and Obama has pledged to step up those efforts.

Congress included $10 million in the economic stimulus package approved last week for the ATF's Project Gunrunner, which targets gun-trafficking networks in the U.S.

Mexico's drug violence has rapidly escalated despite President Felipe Calderon's deployment of 45,000 soldiers across the country to fight cartels.

[Playboypenguin]

Is this politicians not wanting guns imported into Mexico from the US?

[maestro pistolero]

I know, let's pass a law that makes it illegal for criminals to smuggle guns into Mexico. :rolleyes:

[Any .45]

How about Columbia, they are the largest trader of drugs for illegal firearms from the middle east and eastern europe. How would they assume that the US is the problem. Fing idiots. I saw more russian and egyptian AK-47 in Columbia and Ecuador in one location when I was down there than I see handguns at a gun show. These people are getting ridiculous. Drug trade (includes guns) between Europe and South America has been going on for decades, please these demonrats just want to be in bed with everyone. They just don't want to look at the real problem. Soon we'll see Fidel and Chavez sipping tea with Obama bin Biden. Fing commies, fing idiots.:mad:

[vranasaurus]

They are not talking about a new law they are talking about enforcement of current law. They want the current ban on the importation of non sporting firearms enforced.

My problem is that the largest source of illegal immigrants in this country comes from Mexico but I don't see the Mexican government doing anything about it. Yet they expect us to do something about THEIR illegal gun problem.

Another question I have is why would the cartels smuggle semi-auto weapons from the us into Mexico when they certainly have the cash and means to import actual military arms which would be much more effective in a abttle against the Mexican Army?

[AZ Med18]

I agree Mexico should just be quiet since they dont help anyone with anyone else problems.

We have an illegal immigration and drug problems. That well come from Mexico. Maybe if that gets solved then we might think about helping them more than we are now.

[THEZACHARIAS]

Tell them we'll trade them back 1 for 1. We'll take back the weapons no questions asked, but they have to take back their citizens whove been sneaking into our country, no griping or groaning to the international community.

[El Paso Joe]

First, this forum is not about bashing the radical right (rep's) or the lunatic left (fing Dems) - that stuff is out of line. Wads up my tee shirt a bit. Specially since I am a lifelong shooter AND a Dem (more or less).
Second, it is spelled Colombia. Columbia is a river in North America...

[RedneckFur]

Guys, watch the political slurs, or this thread will get locked down like fort knox.:eek:

That said, I didnt know it was illegal to import non-sporting arms into the US, but really, what defines a sporting arm, acording to that law? Is a WASR 10 a sporting arm? How about a Glock?

I smell something hinky up the pipe, and I worry that some anti gun legisiation will come up in the near future.

[THEZACHARIAS]

Sounds like someones secretary in the anti-gun vanguard found an existing law on the books that was either vague and easily open to "interpretation", or that was taken out of context for the sake of a sensational news headline.

That being said, it still is a shady sign of things to come. No matter who came up with it, for the first time in history the anti-gunners have a respectable portion of congress (not singling anyone out by residence or political persuasion) to back them up, not to mention a president who has gone on record supporting that point of view. It would be naive not to expect some sort of attempt like this to be made.

[lon371]

Already written and headed this way "HR45":barf:

Lonny

[Huey Long]

More than 50 U.S. lawmakers sent a letter to President Barack Obama urging him to enforce a ban on importing assault weapons.

The 53 lawmakers, all Democrats, say many such guns are later smuggled south to arm Mexico's ruthless drug cartels.

We're having a problem with people exporting black rifles, so we're going to ban their importation? This is a level of knee-jerk stupidity that I thought not even liberals were capable of.

Furthermore, Central America is literally flooded with assault weapons from decades of civil unrest, and those ones are the real deal, not semiautomatic knock-offs like the ones available here in the states. I'll bet C-notes to donuts that at least half the cartels' weapons are coming from there, not here.

[Socrates]

This is why we have record gunsales. These people have just stolen 800 billion dollars from the American people, and given it to their rich friends.
They are going to come up with as many illogical arguments to ban weapons capable of presenting a threat to their oligarchy as possible. We are now going to be at a point when we must recognize that the goal is the thing, not the garbage verbage and rhetoric that justifies it.

Their is no logic here. There is a simple goal, keep and maintain our gravy train, and ability to milk the American people for money, and, to minimize the threat to us, from them.

[BlueTrain]

Why is anyone here upset that they can't buy imported firearms when there are American manufacturers selling firearms? And here's a hint about the cause of any drug problem: Americans wanting to buy drugs, illegal, I assume.

Would you be upset if you couldn't buy a Mercedes and were forced to buy a Cadillac?

[teeroux]

Would you be upset if you couldn't buy a Mercedes and were forced to buy a Cadillac?

Well yes I would and on top of that you remind everyone we can buy an imported car but not an imported gun?:confused:

[johnwilliamson062]

Why is anyone here upset that they can't buy imported firearms when there are American manufacturers selling firearms?
Norinco makes better guns, by my standards, than any US manufacturer.

Import bans are easy to pass b/c they pick up support from Brady, protectionists, and they are great feel good legislation, etc.

This stuff is genius. Everyone realizes this new law requiring US firms to use US steel is going to kill some of the manufacturing companies like Caterpillar. They make the heavy machinery for most of the world. With the extra costs involved with using only US steel no one is going to want to purchase from them. If they sell every piece of heavy machinery in the US that will still be less than they are going to lose internationally.

Think about the retaliatory sanctions countries are going to be able to issue over these bans.

Manufacturing is not what made the US rich. Exporting is. The key to regaining our position is not increasing manufacturing it is increasing exporting, which these import restrictions do not help with at all. Japan has the lowest duties and restrictions of any major economy in the world, and that is what has allowed them to export despite all their other problems.

[buzz_knox]

But we were promised that guns were off the table! That guns were a third rail issue the Dems wouldn't get near! :rolleyes:

[buzz_knox]

Why is anyone here upset that they can't buy imported firearms when there are American manufacturers selling firearms? And here's a hint about the cause of any drug problem: Americans wanting to buy drugs, illegal, I assume.

Would you be upset if you couldn't buy a Mercedes and were forced to buy a Cadillac?


Can you tell me who in the US is making AKs using non-imported parts? How about FALs, CETMEs, or any other foreign rifle?

[vranasaurus]

That said, I didnt know it was illegal to import non-sporting arms into the US, but really, what defines a sporting arm, acording to that law? Is a WASR 10 a sporting arm? How about a Glock?

It essentially prohibts the importation of "semi-automatic assault weapons" or the assembly of such weapons from imported parts. If they have two or more of the "evil features" then they can't be imported. There are coutable parts and so many have to be non imported to be in compliance. Many of these weapons are imported in a psorting configuration, i.e. no pistol grip, they can be converted to such weapons as long as a sufficient number of imported parts are replaced.



Here is a website that does a pretty good job of explaining the law.
922r explained (http://home.comcast.net/~navy87guy/home/922r.html)

As soon as Mexico can keep their people and drugs from flowing across our border we can talk about keeping our guns from flowing across theirs (if they even do at all).

[johnwilliamson062]

Why is anyone here upset that they can't buy imported firearms when there are American manufacturers selling firearms?
Do you have any idea what prices will shoot up to if they can not use any imported parts?

[cjw3cma]

It will not happen.

The American way is to consume. Stopping the importation of a viable salable product is anti-American. Remember the former president telling Americans the best thing we could do after the 9/11 attacks was to SHOP.

It started with the Eisenhower administration and has continued to this day - we are consumers / 99% of what we consume ends up in the trash within 6 months of purchase. Weapons are a consumable product and as such will continue to be imported.

[44capnball]

Now I understand.

That's why they're training the military to do house to house gun searches in midwest American towns... ;)

http://www.carrollspaper.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=7451&TM=55111.9

Once credible intelligence has been gathered," said Kots, "portions of the town will be road-blocked and more in-depth searches of homes and vehicles will be conducted in accordance with the residents' wishes.

"One of the techniques we use in today's political environment is cordon and knock," Kots explained. "We ask for the head of the household, get permission to search, then have them open doors and cupboards. The homeowner maintains control. We peer over their shoulder, and the soldier uses the homeowner's body language and position to protect him."

During this phase of the operation, troops will interact with residents and media while implementing crowd-control measures and possibly treating and evacuating injured persons.

The unit will use a Blackhawk helicopter for overhead command and control, and to simulate medevacs.

The drill will culminate in the apprehension of the suspected arms dealer.

Because, you know, American towns are full of dangerous arms dealers who are sending guns to Mexico. I feel so much safer now that I can have soldiers come into my home to rifle through cupboards, if it means keeping Mexican drug cartels disarmed.

Maybe they can raid our local pharmacies, too, so Mexican drug cartels can't get drugs either. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Kleinzeit]

[Mexico] expects us to do something about THEIR illegal gun problem.

So, if insurgents in Iraq were going into Iran (for example) to buy weapons, you would agree that the Iranians can't be held responsible for that. Right? I mean, that would be Iraq's problem, not Iran's.

Personally, I don't see how an illegal gun problem in Mexico is only THEIR problem. I can't drive down to Rosarito for carne asada anymore because it's too dangerous. I'm unhappy about that and I'm unhappy that any part of the problem can be traced to my own community and that people in my own community want to just say, "Not my problem."

[Kleinzeit]

PS - I'm not so tribal either as to think that the deaths of innocent Mexicans at the hands of well-armed cartels is only a problem for Mexico. I don't want to hear of anyone, anywhere being killed by criminals with illegal weapons.

[Huey Long]

Can you tell me who in the US is making AKs using non-imported parts? How about FALs, CETMEs, or any other foreign rifle?

DSA (http://www.dsarms.com/).

[madmo44mag]

As stated in another post this is the beginning of the USSA
The United Socialist States of America
Now I understand.

That's why they're training the military to do house to house gun searches in midwest American towns...

http://www.carrollspaper.com/main.as...451&TM=55111.9

It's happening right now, look around at what freedoms we have lost since 9/11
Look at the power Home Land Security has and how much more power they are looking for. This is a new Nazi SS police for the USSA.
All I can say is "lock and load-em heavy boys because here they come!!!"

[Kleinzeit]

As stated in another post this is the beginning of the USSA
The United Socialist States of America ... look around at what freedoms we have lost since 9/11

So... You think everything that limits your freedom is called socialism?

[44capnball]

This is a new Nazi SS police for the USSA.

Although the parallels you draw might be compared to historical precedents meaningfully, some people get an upwelling of irrational feeling as soon as certain hot-button words come into the discussion. While that failing is more theirs than yours, you still have to play nice in the language arena that's been defined. The enforcers of unpopular laws cannot be Nazi SS police, because that would mean they were doing something wrong. Therefore you have to call them liberators and heroes and can-do type of guys. They always are, just ask them. ;)

Come to think of it, MTV did have a video that showed soldiers bursting into homes and rounding up people, then to the viewer it's revealed that these are the exact scenes that happened in Germany, so...

Anyway, the Nazi SS were the end result of the legal, political process in Germany. Though the orders carried out by the SS were later exposed to be unacceptable by any standard of human decency, at the time they were following orders that were legal according to German law. Legal standards and human decency are not always connected. Problem is, the people who carry out the orders always think they have the moral high ground by virtue of having the law behind them.

In 1945, some of them kept spouting their tired excuses until the little stool got kicked out from under their feet. You can go to any failed dictatorship around the world, the foot soldiers of legally mandated terror never thought of themselves as terrorists, but as the "good guys".

As for the word choice, much of the success of anti gunners has revolved around controlling the language. That is losing some of its power with the internet, and also I really don't think the majority of people are as stupid as the antis had hoped, but anyway...

I apologize for the lengthy digression, but it seemed entirely appropriate since the Nazi SS theme came up, and IMHO it was better to offer some meaningful discussion than to act like a taboo word was said. Godwin's so-called law is out the window when a military or quasi-military force actually takes over a town and unwelcome house searches enter the picture.

That has not happened yet, but if it did, it would be 100% appropriate to compare it to Nazi and Soviet tactics. Well, OK, there was Katrina, but people can't even agree on what happened. I do know I saw some disturbing videos of things that shouldn't have happened in the USA.

Maybe my ancestry makes me a tad sensitive to nascent police states and the tactics used therein. I don't want to say any more about that.

To steer it back on topic, the anti gun extremists are trying any and every strategy they can, and it's pretty obvious that tying gun owners to illicit "arms dealers" and the Mexican drug wars is just one of these strategies. We already know they weren't above inventing phony legal scholarship (Joyce Foundation) to advance their aims.

The OP pointed out that everyone knew an import ban was coming, and we all knew it was just a question of what transparent excuse would be made this time.

As Huey Long and Any .45 pointed out, it is much more likely the Mexican gangs are getting their guns from other countries, especially in Latin America. They have full auto weapons, they have grenades. These are not coming from Gander Mountain.

The dedicated antis have proven once again that no tactic is beneath them. They're going to make their agenda palatable to the public any way it takes.

I'm waiting for them to get a "spokesperson" who announces that "now, loud-mouthed gun owners will finally shut up". The parallel might even go unnoticed.

So... You think everything that limits your freedom is called socialism?

The corrupt who seek power don't care whether it's gangster capitalism or authoritarian socialism.

Too bad politicians had to be invented. Most of us just want to be able to go hunting, protect our families, and shoot tin cans in the back yard.

[Hkmp5sd]

Why is anyone here upset that they can't buy imported firearms when there are American manufacturers selling firearms? And here's a hint about the cause of any drug problem: Americans wanting to buy drugs, illegal, I assume.

Would you be upset if you couldn't buy a Mercedes and were forced to buy a Cadillac?



Repeat after me: F R E E D O M


My money. I buy what I want.


Would yo be upset if you couldn't buy a Toyota and were forced to buy a PINTO?

[Webleymkv]

Since when is the ATF not enforcing the current laws? All the "semi-automatic assault weapons" (ATF's term, not mine) I see are made with a U.S. reciever and are therefore legally a U.S. made gun, were imported prior to the implementation of the ban, or have had enough features (pistol grip, bayonet lug, flash hider, etc.) removed that they no longer qualify as a "semi-automatic assault weapon". Likewise, any imported handguns that I've ever seen that don't have enough '68 GCA "points" are either U.S. made or were imported prior to 1968. True assault weapons (i.e. select-fire weapons) are already illegal to import unless they're going to specific organizations like police, military, or dealers that sell to police and military. I've not seen any post-86 machineguns for sale to individuals. Thusly it would seem that these legislators are calling for something that's already being done.

Originally posted by RedneckFur
That said, I didnt know it was illegal to import non-sporting arms into the US, but really, what defines a sporting arm, acording to that law? Is a WASR 10 a sporting arm? How about a Glock?


A Glock is legally a sporting arm since it meets the '68 GCA's "points," the WASR 10 is, legally, a U.S. made gun since the reciever is made here and assembled with an imported parts kit. The only AK-variant that I know of currently being imported with a foreign-made reciever is the Saiga, and it has had all of the "assault weapon" features removed in order to make it a "sporting" gun.

Originally posted by BlueTrain
Why is anyone here upset that they can't buy imported firearms when there are American manufacturers selling firearms? And here's a hint about the cause of any drug problem: Americans wanting to buy drugs, illegal, I assume.

Would you be upset if you couldn't buy a Mercedes and were forced to buy a Cadillac?


Because I think it would have a detrimental effect on the quality of American Firearms in the long run. A perfect example of this is the American auto industry in the first half of the 20th century. Prior to the 1960's, imported cars were both rare and expensive. Because they had virtually no competition besides each other, the American auto makers didn't really develop anything all that different after the introduction of the automatic transmission (all big cars with V-8's that got poor gas mileage). When the fuel-crisis of the 1970's hit, the American makers were caught with their pants down and the Japanese got a foothold with the cars that the Americans never bothered to develop. It's likely that the same thing could happen with the firearms industry as you'd be severely limiting the competition and creating a kind of monopoly similar to what the American auto industry enjoyed during the early 20th century.

And yes, I'd be quite irate if I was forced to buy a Cadillac rather than a Mercedes (though I'd prefer a BMW) because Cadilllac's quality is, IMHO, inferior to that of Mercedes.

[Socrates]

To some of our members here:
I have been cautioned for comments using inflamatory language, such as misspelling Democrat, bringing up facism, in respect to the avenues used to limit freedoms, etc.

I believe the point was that we have both parties, and more participating, and, to not use comments that would inflame, but to engage in a rational discussion of the situation.

"The United Socialist States of America"

is perhaps an example of that. Pointing out that 10 or more states have issued declarations of Soverignty would perhaps be a less inflamatory manner of bringing up that this IS a major issue and concern for the people of the United States.

I function in an industry that is being told how to do our job, teaching, and, that we must insure illegals will be able to read, perfectly, in some absurdly short period of time. It's called No Child Left Behind, and, it's a bunch of people in Congress writing goals without funding, telling states they must do something they cannot, and, doing it out of their authority under the Constitution.

Government, centralized government, that oversteps a
democracy, or republic, tends to fit under a number of names as it progresses. Being aware of the tendencies is good, and I find parallels to history a very effective way
of seeing the progress towards where other nations have ended up.

I would be cautious in blaming one party or the other.
The bill that allowed the formation of more centralized government, The Homeland Security Act, was a joint effort, both parties voting it in, and, a Republican president signing it, IIRC.

It is becoming quite clear that the elected officials we have in office, and both parties need to be reformed...

[Webleymkv]

Socrates, I agree 100% and have long said that a third-party candidate with more than a snowball's chance in Hades would tickle me pink (where's Ross Perot when you need him).

[gc70]

Originally posted by johnwilliamson062:
This stuff is genius. Everyone realizes this new law requiring US firms to use US steel is going to kill some of the manufacturing companies like Caterpillar.

H.R. 1, SEC. 1605. (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h1enr.txt.pdf) USE OF AMERICAN IRON, STEEL, AND MANUFACTURED GOODS. (a) None of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used for a project for the construction, alteration, maintenance, or repair of a public building or public work unless all of the iron, steel, and manufactured goods used in the project are produced in the United States.

The law does not require all US firms to use only US steel. It only requires that the iron, steel or manufactured goods that go into a building or project funded by H.R. 1 be made in the US. So the the girders in a H.R. 1 bridge and the toilets in a H.R. 1 building will have to be made in the US, but Caterpillar can still use whatever steel it wishes to build its bulldozers.

(d) This section shall be applied in a manner consistent with
United States obligations under international agreements.

By the time the government sorts out all of the international trade agreements and treaties, the Buy American provision may end up as little more than grandstanding for the public.

[vranasaurus]

So, if insurgents in Iraq were going into Iran (for example) to buy weapons, you would agree that the Iranians can't be held responsible for that. Right? I mean, that would be Iraq's problem, not Iran's.

Personally, I don't see how an illegal gun problem in Mexico is only THEIR problem. I can't drive down to Rosarito for carne asada anymore because it's too dangerous. I'm unhappy about that and I'm unhappy that any part of the problem can be traced to my own community and that people in my own community want to just say, "Not my problem."

Mexico doesn't care about the problems that come into this country from theirs which is why I don't care about any alleged problems going into their country from ours. You know why you can't buy sudafed over the counter wihtout signing a register anymore? Because a bunch of politicians were convinced that home made meth was the biggest source of meth in this country. The fact is that the majority of meth has always been smuggled in from Mexico. So I get inconvenienced at the drug store because of Mexico. Does the Mexican government care? Why aren't they stopping the flow of illegal drugs and immigrants across our border?

The level of corruption makes our most corrupt politicians look like choir boys. The cartels have so many people on the payroll that they can get what they want.

The American gun culture makes an easy target for Mexico but the reality is that the criminals who want guns in Mexico can get them all over central america not to mention elsewhere in the world. And we aren't talking about nuetered firearms that are available for commercial sales in the US.

What do you want the US government to do about this problem? The acts being committed by these people are highly illegal and they care little about US laws regarding the purchase and importation of firearms. I guarantee that enforcing 922r will not slow down the cartels in Mexico from getting the weapons they want.

These American politicians who want this enforce don't care about what is going on in Mexico they just want to restrict gun rights and the firearms available for purchase as much as possible.

[Al Norris]

I'm just going to close this for going off topic. Next time I issue infractions for every off topic post I find.