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MikeGoob
February 17, 2009, 09:49 PM
Maybe you have heard about the latest animal attack--In California on monday, a 200lb Chimpanzee that was raised in captivity, like a human, suddenly mauled a woman. If you think this might be a joke, check out what kind of damage this thing did: He severely mauled her face and "He bit both of her hands off...It's terrible," said Lynne Mecca, a friend of the victim.
http://i42.tinypic.com/20gfrkw.jpg

Article here:
http://wcbstv.com/breakingnewsalerts/orangutan.attack.stamford.2.936381.html

And in 2005 a chimpanzee attacked a man very severely, biting off all his fingers and 'other parts' leaving him in a coma for several weeks.

Ive looked up 'chimp attack' on youtube and seen some pretty scary attacks. These guys apparently like to disable the hands and fingers first, perhaps instinct to a primate attacking another primate. Anyway I was thinking, what do you do in the face of such a vicious creature, apparently able to bite off fingers like snacks, that is instinctively lunging at your hands. Can you retain your weapon? Is it even possible to defend yourself with a bladed weapon if your gun is knocked away?

I know its not likely to face an angry chimp. It just made me think. What could you do?

ElectricHellfire
February 17, 2009, 09:55 PM
Honestly, I don't know. If your armed, of course, then you have some chance to avoid injury. I seriously doubt a backup blade would have done much good. Its a sad situation and people should realize that keeping 200lb monkeys and tigers and bears is ill advised.

From what I understand it trapped a LEO in his car and then proceeded to open his car door when the cop double tapped it. Also, heard some of the neighbors reporting that this animal was NOT friendly and this was a problem before all this happened. Imagine living next to a 200lb monkey who hated your guts. :eek: Sad situation.

Doc TH
February 17, 2009, 11:15 PM
Chimps are not particularly benign. Some years ago there was a researcher studying baboons. He was interviewed, and pointed out that he always carried his broomhandle Mauser pistol when he was out in the field with the baboons. His experience had led him to conclude that they were dangerous and untrustworthy.

More recently, several animal researchers were severely injured by chimps. They were not armed.

dipper
February 17, 2009, 11:54 PM
Chimps are extremely dangerous and as they mature, it gets worse.

Forget using a blade---might as well use one against a rhino.
The owner of this chimp was stabbing it with a butcher knife to stop the attack--didn't work.
According to what I read and heard on the news, he bit the hands off and ATE them.
Many people do not know that chimps eat meat and love it----they eat more than bananas.

The owner NEVER should have called in someone the chimp did not live with.

As far as a firearm, IF you were extremely quick and at the ready AND able to make the first shot a "fatal" shot, you may stand a chance.
Wild animals are WAY faster than we are and close and cause damage very quickly.

evan1293
February 18, 2009, 01:19 AM
Maybe you have heard about the latest animal attack--In California on monday, a 200lb Chimpanzee that was raised in captivity, like a human, suddenly mauled a woman.

It was in Connecticut. :)

That chimp got what was coming to him.:D

JohnKSa
February 18, 2009, 01:35 AM
Deleted a couple of posts.

This thread is for discussing the tactics of defending against the admittedly unlikely attack of a Chimp or other large primate.

It's not for discussing the ethics or wisdom of having exotic or dangerous animals as pets, the intricacies of animal psychology or the proper treatment of animals in captivity.

Bauer
February 18, 2009, 01:53 AM
Well first of all if your neighbor has any kind of animal that you are unsure about, then you need constant situational awareness, which you should already have. My backdoor neighbor has had a large, seemingly ill-tempered pitbull for a while and I have always kept that in my mind while outside. There is nothing better than being aware and being prepared. The places we are most comfortable we are also most vulnerable. All of that being said, a chimp can and will rip your limbs from your body.

Socrates
February 18, 2009, 03:14 AM
IIRC, the guys that go to Africa generally shoot baboons on site. They are an African pest, apparently. They are extremely tough, and a 375 H&H, or even the 375 Rum are not considered improper. Same with Hyenas.

Chimps aren't far behind. They are incredibly powerful, and, your chances of getting a shot off aren't much, since they are also VERY fast, and smart.

Watch a chimp take a car tire and bend it into a figure 8, and you'll get the general idea.
In this situation, there simply is never enough gun.

Situations like that are what this gun was designed for:


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The rifle is the one without the scope in the pictures, and the darker wood.
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The loose brass is the 600 grain Barnes, @ 2150 fps. It is ONLY a stopping rifle, setup to feed 600 grain round nose bullets. This is the perfect PH rifle.
Heres what it looks like shooting it:
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P17 enfield action. rifle was made by Bob Boggs and Charlie Merit, using Gil's reamer. First Van Horn big bore. Recoil lug/rear site assembly was done by
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Comes with dies, brass about 30 pieces, already formed.
This is a stopping rifle, period. Same class as the .505 Gibbs, etc.
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fivepaknh
February 18, 2009, 04:19 AM
I think what makes animal attacks so bad is the difference in the mental state after being shot. A chimp can be killed with any caliber that’ll effectively kill a human, but unfortunately an animal doesn’t react the same as most humans would when mortally wounded. While there are exceptions, many people will stop an attack after being shot. An animal is likely to fight to its last breath.

I guess the first thing you have to accept in this kind of attack is the fact you’re not going to walk away unscathed. Stand with your non-firing side forward, then let the chimp chew on your non-firing hand and arm while you unload with your firing hand. When thinking about a dog attack I’ve always figured this is likely your best bet. I don’t see it being any different in the unlike event of being attacked by a chimp.

evan1293
February 18, 2009, 05:32 AM
I think what makes animal attacks so bad is the difference in the mental state after being shot. A chimp can be killed with any caliber that’ll effectively kill a human, but unfortunately an animal doesn’t react the same as most humans would when mortally wounded. While there are exceptions, many people will stop an attack after being shot.


+1. The psychological factor in one-shot stop statistics is hard to quantify, but is doubtlessly a large factor for humans. This is why it is difficult to look at one shot stop statistics of a given cartridge. It is nearly imposible to determine how much the psychological factor(s) had to do with a person ending the fight after the first shot... Many people are just predisposed to fall down after getting shot.

This is why it is important to train to place several shots, spaced 2-3" apart rapidly to the threat. Both body then head shots fired continuously until the threat subsides. With an animal attack of any kind, this same rule would apply. Keep shooting until the threat is over. Of course for larger animals like a bear, lion, elephant, etc... a more powerful cartridge then what is typically carried would be needed. For common animals that pose a threat, dogs, coyotes, chimps:D...a number of service rounds fired to the body/ head should do the trick.

Socrates
February 18, 2009, 06:24 AM
I don't think you are really factoring in how weak humans really are.

Just watch a chimp swing around sometime, and you get the distinct feeling that they have cables for tendons, and, are solid muscle of a type humans can't really dream of.

Likewise cats. My cat can jump about 8 times her height.
That would make Dwight Howard a real superman, with a 56 foot vertical.

Back to primates:

One of the strength tests for gorillas is twisting truck tires into figure eights. Another:
Non-husked coconut in super thick packing cardboard.
Gorilla shakes box. Uses thumbs to peel cardboard off that would take a packing knife for us. Gets to coconut.
Shakes by ear. Peels husk like it's the skin of a grape.
Now has coconut. Pushes down on the ground. Does it again, slow, coconut breaks open. Gorilla enjoys the milk.

The apes have a mechanical advantage in the way their tendons are connected, related to humans. They are farther apart, and, that gives them a huge leverage advantage.

By the way, chimps are pretty good at this kind of stuff:
California chimp attack leaves man in critical condition

Last Updated Fri, 04 Mar 2005 14:04:36 EST

CALIENTE, CALIF. - Two chimpanzees broke free from their cage at a California animal sanctuary Thursday, chewing off most of a 62-year-old man's face and biting his wife.

The couple, St. James and LaDonna Davis, had been visiting their former pet chimp Moe at the Animal Haven Ranch. Moe had been removed from their Los Angeles home in 1999 for aggressive behaviour.

The couple, who had brought a birthday cake to Moe, were standing outside his cage when two other chimps in an adjoining cage, Buddy and Ollie, attacked.

Sanctuary officials say they don't know how Buddy and Ollie escaped from their cage.

Hospital officials say St. James Davis is in critical condition with massive injuries to his face, arm and leg. His testicles and a foot were severed and he will require extensive surgery to re-attach his nose.

His wife, LaDonna, was bitten on the hand while trying to save her husband.

The son-in-law of the sanctuary owner shot and killed Buddy and Ollie.

Two other female chimps in the cage with them also escaped, but were captured five hours later and returned to the enclosure.nterviews with the local people who were on scene and the man's wife reported that the injured man and his wife were having a birthday party for their chimp and the other chimps seemed to react when they saw the group eating birthday cake. Four chimps (2 male and 2 female) escaped their cage and the two male chimps attacked the group. The man reportedly stepped in front of his wife to protect her and took the brunt of the attack. After they got him down on the ground, the chimps gnawed his foot, testicles and face off. The wife was injured on the hands when she was trying to get the chimps off of her husband. When the son in law of the sanctuary owner came on scene he had a 45 in his hand but realizing how severe the attack was went back inside to reload with heavier ammunition. He killed both male chimps as one of them continued to attack the man and the other stood over him making threatening gestures. The pet chimp "Moe" apparenty took no part in the attack nor did it try to defend the couple. Sanctuary workers gathered up the man's nose and privates and put them on ice in case they could be re-attached.

The two female chimps who escaped with the males wandered around the hills for a few hours. One had to be sedated and loaded into a truck and the other wandered around until it found a family walking down a nearby road. It apparently waited with them until it was picked up by the authorities who were looking for it.




By the way, even a .577 Nitro Express is not a one shot stop on lion, unless perfect placement, CNS.

Socrates
February 18, 2009, 06:43 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2009/02/16/2009-02-16_police_pet_chimpanzee_travis_attacks_wom.html
Conklin said it wasn't clear what set him off, but theorized Travis' bout with Lyme disease - which can cause panic attacks, paranoia, personality changes and mood swings in people - could be connected. Travis was taking medication for the disease, Conklin said.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2009/02/17/2009-02-17_911_tape_captures_chimpanzee_owners_horr-2.html

BlueTrain
February 18, 2009, 07:16 AM
Actually humans are not necessarily all that weak. It's just that they (we) are better at some things than most animals and not so good at other things as most humans. Humans are particularly good at running (no joking here), not that people are so fast but few animals could run a long distance, not that they ever would. But many animals can out jump humans easily. But also, most animals are in better training than the average human, too.

Chimps used to be used a lot in jungle movies but they were generally young and even so, actors reported lots of bites.

fbrown333@suddenlink
February 18, 2009, 07:38 AM
Animals in general do not act like humans when fataly shot. All they know is survive. They don't go "oh i'm shot boo hoo", they will fight to the last breath and then some.

MikeGoob
February 18, 2009, 07:39 AM
I do remember hearing one tactic with dogs: If they are running at you and a bite is imminent, you hold out your 'bad' forearm for them to bite (hopefully with a shirt wrapped around it if you have time). While he bites what you hold out, your good hand can stab/shoot his underbelly, neck etc.

With a chimp that can apparently snip off fingers and hands with those teeth, im not sure that would work too well however

Socrates
February 18, 2009, 08:56 AM
From general looking around, it seems that most apes that are shot are shot with 30-06 or larger caliber rifles.

ZeSpectre
February 18, 2009, 09:09 AM
I think what makes animal attacks so bad is the difference in the mental state after being shot. A chimp can be killed with any caliber that’ll effectively kill a human, but unfortunately an animal doesn’t react the same as most humans would when mortally wounded. While there are exceptions, many people will stop an attack after being shot. An animal is likely to fight to its last breath.

I've made this point many times in the past. Also I've held a very young chimp one time, maybe 55-65 pounds. It was AT LEAST as strong as I am. A full grown chimp is phenomenally strong compared to a human.

Tactics for dealing with one? Well, anything would be better than trying to take it on bare handed that's for sure.

MikeGoob
February 18, 2009, 03:27 PM
Here is the 911 call: warning--VERY disturbing

http://www.youtube.com/v/OXK8Y_62Ysw

The most poignant part is perhaps the woman SCREAMING for guns. Kind of drives home the point that you need to have a gun well before you actually need to use it.

Creature
February 18, 2009, 04:19 PM
That is very disturbing.

ZeSpectre
February 18, 2009, 04:33 PM
One of the disturbing things is you can tell the dispatcher thinks it's some kind of prank at first.

At 2:25 the friend is torn up and she's says "my god where are they, where are they?"

3:26 - They finally arrive and start shooting.

Seriously, an excellent response time by the police but may literally have been a lifetime for the friend.

rickseiko
February 18, 2009, 09:57 PM
A sad story, my heart goes out to the owners and the victim. When I first read the story in the news I started my what gun for Chimps count down. It didn't take long. The most dangerous animals on the planet have opposable digits. Chimpanzees have 4 of them. Maybe we should strike now?

Coyote Hitman
February 18, 2009, 10:19 PM
One of the disturbing things is you can tell the dispatcher thinks it's some kind of prank at first.

I got the impression that he was unsure what was going on at first. Given the womans state of mind, I can understand that.

Ironically, CBS 2 HD has also learned that the same chimpanzee escaped from his owners' SUV back in 2003 and caused havoc in downtown Stamford before police put down the then-175-pound animal with a tranquilizer gun.

That should have been the end of Travis the Chimp.


Anyone actually seen any pics of the victim? From what I understand her face was ripped off, hands gone, etc.

Also, does anyone know what they hit the chimp with and how many rounds it took? I think I heard 3-4 on the tape, but I wasn't counting.

Casimer
February 18, 2009, 10:48 PM
This report suggests that he'd been hit w/ multiple shots from the officer's service pistol - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E4G4gtsOQQ

FWIW adult chimps are notoriously dangerous. The ones you see on TV and in the movies are typically much younger. They're usually retired to sanctuaries, or some other appropriate setting, once they get older.

MikeGoob
February 18, 2009, 10:53 PM
ZeSpectre, its possible the recording is edited for time.

JohnKSa
February 19, 2009, 12:59 AM
For those who still don't understand how strong a 200lb chimp is there's an informative exchange near the end of the 911 call.

The dispatcher advised the chimp owner to lock her car doors and she replied:

"It don't matter, he'll rip the doors right off."

SMiller
February 19, 2009, 01:05 AM
Empty mag, insert new mag, repeat! Wild animals belong in the wild, no excuses!

Coyote Hitman
February 19, 2009, 08:52 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQepG7sD6vk&feature=related

Pretty dangerous indeed, seeing how they ripped this monkey apart.

Creature
February 19, 2009, 09:13 AM
"It don't matter, he'll rip the doors right off."

That cant be right. An exaggeration perhaps?

Wiskey_33
February 19, 2009, 09:19 AM
I wonder if it had anything to do with the fact that the owner gave the chimp a Xanax.

Chui
February 19, 2009, 09:30 AM
No, "Creature", it's not an exaggeration. They are perhaps 5 times as strong as a grown man when enraged. There are reports of ****** off apes in zoos rearranging their exhibits. I always wanted to be a zoo vet when I was younger and all I read was books about animals. Their bones are more dense and their shape is such that they have greater mechanical advantage and then there is the muscle mass and very thick tendons. I'm not sure if the muscle fiber is significantly different but I'd imagine that the differences are impressive - with respect to strength.

I fear apes. They are more powerful, faster and intelligent.

They also castrate the people (and I assume each other) when they attack. So they will leave you a faceless, handless eunuch.

Rifles up!

I had the opportunity to play with a tiger cub. He weighed about 55 to 60 lbs. He was a strong as a grown Rottweiler. I'm dead sure that a 50 lb chimp is about as strong as an adult male human. They should not be kept as "pets". Same with monkeys and whatnot.

guntotin_fool
February 19, 2009, 10:27 AM
No matter how strong you say they are, a single 9mm or 38 to the chest would have an effect on them. They are in the same class as Baboon strength wise and killing a baboon with a .223 is common.

Their strength comes mainly from the manner in which the muscles are attached to the bone, and where, its like using a lever with the fulcrum way in, to the fulcrum way out. They are strong, and they lack any sort of social control that a human might have in saying, if I break this, I am going to pay for it.

As for ripping a door handle off, no way, they might get their fingers in the under the glass or the window frame and bend it, but I have done that with my hands and its not that hard. Again, its a matter of intensity.

Needing anything like a Stopping Rifle for a chimp is COMPLETELY laughable. Hundreds of thousands have been killed for food using every thing from arrows to AK's. They are not made of kevlar, and if you poke a hole in them they will bleed.

MikeGoob
February 19, 2009, 11:15 AM
And dont forget those teeth. In both of those latest attacks mentioned, they went right for the fingers/hands. One snip and they were off.

If you were holding your arms in front of you (drawn) you probably dont have much time to get your shots off before they get to those hands.

Note, they're faster than humans and dont run straight like humans. From the other attack videos they hop and bounce using all their limbs. Talk about a hard to hit moving target!

Glenn E. Meyer
February 19, 2009, 11:31 AM
Let's hope they don't become Zombies!!

To be more productive - they also have more mitochrondia in their cells for extra energy according to a neuroscientist friend who works with primates.

The papers say the woman used to sleep (in bed) and bathe with it. If she was too 'close' is under debate. It is not unknow for some primate researchers with gorillas to go off the deep end towards the animal.

doc540
February 19, 2009, 11:35 AM
What they didn't tell us was the owner had rigged up a TV in the chimp's cage and never changed the channel from CNN.

No wonder the poor beast went apeshlt.

Vanya
February 19, 2009, 12:16 PM
JohnKSa wrote:
This thread is for discussing the tactics of defending against the admittedly unlikely attack of a Chimp or other large primate.

It's not for discussing the ethics or wisdom of having exotic or dangerous animals as pets, the intricacies of animal psychology or the proper treatment of animals in captivity.

OK, sure, but...

I'm a bit puzzled by this. As others have noted in this thread, adult chimpanzees, especially males, are notoriously dangerous animals -- the cute, cuddly ones we see in movies, etc., are infants. Folks who do behavioral research on primates (I was one, briefly, a really long time ago) are well aware of this, and it's standard practice to "retire" adult, or even adolescent, chimps to sanctuaries where they're not in close contact with people.

Keeping an adult chimp as a pet is NUTS -- it's a disaster waiting to happen. "Ethics and wisdom" aside, when we discuss other self-defense situations -- getting mugged, getting into fights in bars, road rage, even home invasions, the tactic of not getting into the situation in the first place is usually discussed at some length, so why not in this case?

If I knew someone who kept one of these animals as a pet, loose in the house, "situational awareness" would dictate that I'd stay the hell away... and try really hard to convince her, were she a friend, that she needed to find it a more suitable home.

spacemanspiff
February 19, 2009, 12:43 PM
Hundreds of thousands have been killed for food using every thing from arrows to AK's. They are not made of kevlar, and if you poke a hole in them they will bleed.

And when one is hunting any type of animal the hunter has the time to make proper shot placement. That is obviously not the case in a defensive situation. For anyone to armchair qb this and insist that it could be done quickly and easily must not have ever had the chance to fire their weapon in defense while undergoing the massive adrenalin dump.

Perhaps some need to do their own research into the physiology of primates before making ignorant statements.

spacemanspiff
February 19, 2009, 12:45 PM
To be more productive - they also have more mitochrondia in their cells for extra energy according to a neuroscientist friend who works with primates
Wait, are you saying they are also Jedis? :D

Vanya
February 19, 2009, 01:07 PM
If I had to be in the same room with one, I think I'd want to have a 12 gauge pump (or, heck, an autoloader), loaded with 00 buck, at the ready... and I darn sure wouldn't turn my back on the critter. :)

MrClean
February 19, 2009, 01:18 PM
Yea, to the original question.... of everything in my safe.... a 12 gauge would be preferred in my opinion. I have read numerous 'authorities' that state the same thing, that once 'in grasp' of many of the wild animals that would attack a human.... stuffing ones hand/arm down the throat would minimize further injury and allow the other hand free to do whatever with (I would hope I'd still have a gun in hand). Not too sure about that either.... but I have read it a few places.

This is just another instance/reason for NOT owning animals that have been "domesticated". There is always danger there. And I think too few of these owners actually respect that and take all safety precautions serious enough.

Rebailey
February 19, 2009, 02:10 PM
Seems to me a 12 gauge with 3'' or 3 1/2'' 00 buck would be just the ticket for rowdy chimps.

nate45
February 19, 2009, 02:36 PM
As others have noted in this thread, adult chimpanzees, especially males, are notoriously dangerous animals

Thats so true Vanya and not only that they are, as has been previously noted, many times stronger than an adult human, carnivorous and have the ability to use weapons, such as sticks and clubs. Having my brains bashed in and/or testicles bitten of by an enraged 200 LB chimp is not a pleasant thought.

I'm of the opinion that in an enraged chimp attack situation, however unlikely that scenario may be, that the time for head shots would be at hand. Hope you are carrying at least a 9 mm and try and blow it's brains out the back of it's skull as quickly as possibly. Why you ask? Look what multiple chest shots from close range did in this situation, the animal could have easily continued the attack, or attacked someone else after it fled.

alistaire
February 19, 2009, 02:54 PM
Quote:To be more productive - they also have more mitochrondia in their cells for extra energy according to a neuroscientist friend who works with primates

Wait, are you saying they are also Jedis?
They are strong with the dark side of the Force.

Socrates
February 19, 2009, 02:58 PM
The real problem is you can domesticate them, about 99.9999%, same with bears, tigers, some lions, female jaguars, snakes, feral cats, cheetahs, but, the one time they have an anxiety attack, loose their temper, even get scared by an unexpected noise, you, or someone else ends up dead, or severely injured.

So, your only real choice is to be constantly prepared for that inevitability, and, this lady was not.

Also, the ability to anticipate the animals potential triggers is vital. A more common, but still deadly example is my friend in Hawaii's pitbull. On the 4th of July, he had to be sedated, since the noise would really scare him, and, an otherwise loveable dog put his claws through my surfboard, covered with 5 layers of 6 oz glass, and a hot and gloss coat. That was WITH the drugs...before they kicked in.

MikeGoob
February 19, 2009, 03:23 PM
Was this animal even 'fixed'?

My sister works with horses and has relayed stories of stallions biting and mauling people. You dont want to be picked up by the skin of your neck, I can tell you that much.

Socrates
February 19, 2009, 03:43 PM
The real problem is that to have a domesticated animal, you have to get rid of the genetic traits that lead to the outbursts.
Just as in dog breeding, when you get a dangerous dog, you either do what the chimp did to that guy, or shoot it so the trait is out of the genetic line.

An example of what such a problem can be was a friends cow. She was frisky, mean, and had her own mind. She would try and run my friend over, break out of the pen, and, with a 1000 pound cow, you either have to shoot it, or use a CAR or truck, or maybe horse to get it back into it's pen.

Musketeer
February 19, 2009, 03:57 PM
Chimp is misleading. Call it an Ape and the perspective changes.

There is a difference between an animal shot for food while it is standing around and one enraged and attacking. This made me remember why my backup mags for my 10mm are loaded with DoubleTap 200gr XTP hollowpoints @ 1200fps...

Pilot
February 19, 2009, 03:59 PM
Keeping a non-domesticated animal, especially a primate, as a house pet is just asking for trouble. Its just common sense.

Vanya
February 19, 2009, 04:40 PM
The real problem is you can domesticate them, about 99.9999%

The real problem is that to have a domesticated animal, you have to get rid of the genetic traits that lead to the outbursts.

Exactly. It's worth clarifying this, because it's a distinction not everyone gets: we're talking about taming wild animals, here, not domesticating them. Domestication involves selective breeding, over many generations, to produce a strain of animals which are docile around humans, and reasonably easy to manage: e.g. cows, horses, dogs... With some species, say pigs & cats, it's debatable how "domesticated" they ever get; with others, reindeer, for example, it just doesn't take.

But it's never been done with chimpanzees; they're wild animals, which it's possible to tame if they're either bred in captivity or caught very young -- but they have nothing in their genetic makeup to make them tolerant of humans. They're social animals, and as infants, they depend on and are submissive to their caregivers, the same as any social mammal that takes a long time to reach maturity, but once they're grown, that's it -- can't trust 'em worth a damn.

Was this animal even 'fixed'?

Good question. I'd bet not, given the way apes, in particular, are anthropomorphized... "Ooooh, we couldn't do that to darling Travis..."

MikeGoob
February 19, 2009, 05:09 PM
news reports are now saying this woman has lost her jaw and both eyes. Shes a candidate for a face transplant. :(

ElectricHellfire
February 19, 2009, 05:43 PM
news reports are now saying this woman has lost her jaw and both eyes. Shes a candidate for a face transplant.

Holy crap. Thats brutal.

Vanya
February 19, 2009, 05:54 PM
Yes, it's hideous. The victim has been transferred to the Cleveland Clinic, where the first-ever face transplant in this country was done a couple of months ago.

It seems that in '04, in response to another incident involving "Travis," Connecticut actually passed a law prohibiting keeping primates larger than 50 lbs. as pets -- but "Travis" was sort of grandfathered in, and his owner was allowed to keep him. Bad decision, to put it mildly.

Might be time to close this one... not many more tactical lessons to be learned from this, IMO.

pax
February 19, 2009, 06:34 PM
Vanya, you are so right. I kept hoping it would take a turn topic-ward, but alas, it was not to be.

Closed for thread drift.

One inappropriate joke removed. If it was yours, shame on you.

pax