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Doc Hoy
February 12, 2009, 07:14 AM
Experts,

I have an opportunity to purchase an ASM 1860 Army brass frame .44. Pistol was made about 1980 and never fired. Said to be in as-new condition. Box and paperwork included. Price is $150.00 plus shipping.

Given ASM's reputation is the pistol worth the money?

Raider2000
February 12, 2009, 07:48 AM
Being that you can get a brand new Brass Framed 1851 Navy "type" from http://www.cabelas.com (http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/pod/horizontal-pod.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/pod-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat602007-cat20817&rid=&indexId=cat20817&navAction=push&masterpathid=&navCount=1&parentType=index&parentId=cat20817&id=0015516) for just a few dollars more I would say that it is a little on the pricy side.

Now unless you know the person that has this revolver & seen it first hand then that changes my sentiment but not my thoughts of price.

Doc Hoy
February 12, 2009, 12:09 PM
Raider,

All good points. I do not know the owner and so that raises questions as you say.

As this is an 1860 rather than an 1851 I believe that raises the ante just slightly.

I have two 1851s and only one 1860. I have seen new Piettas for between $240 and $295. But Imust admit that I do not take the time tomake myself intimately familiar with who is selling what for how much.

I guess you can tell that I was hoping someone would say that the fact that it was manufacured by ASM does not necessarily make it a bad pistol.

kirpi97
February 12, 2009, 12:54 PM
the fact that it was manufacured by ASM does not necessarily make it a bad pistol. I'll say it.

I own an ASM 1860, not in the brass frame mind you. $150 for the brass frame is a bit steep. The only brass frame that I purchased was an 1858 Remington and I paid $75 for it two months ago. It was used, very little, and was clean throughout.

As for my issues with ASM -- Parts. The furniture works fine. I haven't experienced a problem with the ASM. Knock on wood. My only complaint was the grips. Which I have replaced with modifications.

Parts are the real issue. Unless you are Long Rider and others who tweak Pietta parts to fit, it can be a problem.

I was about to give the following advice. But then I went to gunbroker to see what the sellers were asking there. I found what you were asking about and they seem to be in the same price range. :eek:

1860 Colt Army

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=122415742

The Cabella's deal with $5 shipping for orders over $150 is a better deal. It includes a nipple wrench, powder measure, lube, flask, balls, and wads. That has to be worth the difference.

1851 Colt Navy

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0006186216058a&type=product&cmCat=SEARCH_all&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&Ntt=1851&Ntk=Products&sort=all&Go.y=14&_D%3AhasJS=+&N=0&_D%3Asort=+&Nty=1&hasJS=true&Go.x=21&_DARGS=%2Fcabelas%2Fen%2Fcommon%2Fsearch%2Fsearch-box.jsp.form1&_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1

I wrote a whole lot more and then posted it only to see your response. So now I blow off my thoughts concerning favoring the 1851. If you are looking to get a cheap 1860 model, the ASM is not bad. If you can handle the revolver, do that first. Make sure it is comfortable in your hands. After that, the ASM is not bad for casual shooting. And may not be over priced--even though I think so.

Doc Hoy
February 12, 2009, 01:24 PM
Kirpi,

Thanks a lot for the additional info. Cautions on ASM are about enough to send me to the competition.

mykeal
February 12, 2009, 02:59 PM
To be honest, I don't share the consensus cautions regarding ASM. I own an ASM Walker and while it's no Uberti (which I also own), it's still a good quality gun; I've seen a lot worse. As a brand my first thought would be OK.

That being said, examine it closely and carefully first, and if you can't for some reason, get a three day no-questions-asked return guarantee. It doesn't hurt to be careful.

And $150 is a tad high but not outrageous. If it were in very good to excellent shape, I'd buy it for that.

Doc Hoy
February 12, 2009, 04:58 PM
Mykeal,

I like your approach. I doubt, though, that I could get a trial period and as a point of fact I don't know that I have it in me to make something like that stick. It would have to be pretty bad for me to turn it back.

Perhaps the smart thing to do is just go to the biggies and buy a new one.

I have done an awful lot of business w/ Dixie Gun Works over the years and while I am not thrilled with every aspect of their offerings (shipping is high and some of their prices seem to be way out of line) I am relatively confident I could get a decent price on a pistol that will have good after the sale support.

We also have a gun show coming up, end of Feb. in Virginia Beach. I might find something there.

I am in the market for a Dragoon and for this 1860 Army, both in .44.

Hawg Haggen
February 12, 2009, 06:28 PM
I'd pass on it for the brass frame alone.

pohill
February 12, 2009, 09:36 PM
I recently sold an ASM 3rd Model Dragoon. It was a great gun - a real good shooter. Solid, well made, dependable, good looking, too. I never bought spare parts for it, though (nothing ever broke).
As far as a .44 in brass - I never owned one but some shooters love them. The trick is to have so many guns that no single one gets worn out or overused.

mykeal
February 12, 2009, 09:56 PM
If someone is charging near the upper limit for a gun and won't agree to a 3 day return guarantee, then the gun isn't worth it. It doesn't take anything to ask and it may tell you a lot about the gun. And the seller.

Doc Hoy
February 13, 2009, 12:39 PM
Folks,

Between Hawg, Mykeal, and Kirpi97 I think I have been talked out of the deal.

I am gratified to read the good news from pohill on ASM atributes.

I have noted several available on gunbroker which rival the offer. I think I am still in the "looking" category.

mykeal
February 13, 2009, 03:02 PM
Between Hawg, Mykeal, and Kirpi97 I think I have been talked out of the deal.

???
I thought I said to proceed, but cautiously.

kirpi97
February 13, 2009, 06:06 PM
If you are looking to get a cheap 1860 model, the ASM is not bad.the ASM is not bad for casual shooting

I have no problems with the workings of the ASM. I won't be selling mine anytime soon. But should you have problems, parts is an issue.

But like mykeal, I suggested to handle the revolver. But I will say, I thought it a bit over priced. But what do I know about the market today.

I just do not want to be lumped into the category of those who ditch ASM.

I just feel for $150, you should be able to get a steel frame ASM.

DrLaw
February 13, 2009, 07:04 PM
You others owning ASM's must have been the lucky ones. I had a .36 Navy steel frame. Nothing but problems. The main spring broke and nothing would fit for a replacement. Replacement springs from other makers were too short. Accuracy was poor, fitting was, too. The grip was actually bent upward and did not join the frame squarely.

I was never happy with it because of that and other issues.

The Doc is out now. :cool:

Doc Hoy
February 13, 2009, 08:59 PM
Mykeal,

Yes...I think you did and I understood but as I was unable to employ the caution you recommended, (which I thought was very sound advice) the balance shifted away from this pistol.

I am sure it will sell to someone, just not me.

Actually I feel pretty good about the whole thing because the general consensus among you, who take cap and ball shooting very seriously was that the price is a little high. I feel good because I thought it was a bit high myself but don't have the experience to know for sure. In effect you were telling me that my instincts were essentially correct.

Tnx,

Barry

Hawg Haggen
February 13, 2009, 09:29 PM
Cost a little more but maybe one of these will float your boat. The brass frames aren't historically accurate but will hold up ok with mild loads.
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/index/index-display.jsp;jsessionid=030XKHOTUQ4CJLAQBBKCCONMCAEFKIWE?id=cat20817&navAction=jump&navCount=1&cmCat=MainCatcat602007&parentType=category&parentId=cat602007&_requestid=41012

Doc Hoy
February 14, 2009, 10:18 AM
H H,

Yes. I also have a DGW flier with a Pietta (brass frame) for $215.00 including a bunch of stuff in a starter kit, which I don't really need.

They also advertise a steel frame (SS1071) for $275 which is 50 bucks off the regular price. I think this sale price is offered quite often.

We also have a Bass Pro Shop close by which has prices which closely match Cabella's in some cases.

Tnx,

Barry

madcratebuilder
February 14, 2009, 12:32 PM
Here is a new brass frame .44 (http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/item-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat20712-cat20817_TGP&id=0006186210086a&navCount=2&podId=0006186&parentId=cat20817&masterpathid=&navAction=push&catalogCode=9IS&rid=&parentType=index&indexId=cat20817&hasJS=true) from Cabela's for $129
They have a $5 shipping offer going.

Doc Hoy
February 14, 2009, 08:17 PM
MCB,

I looked at this pistol and it is a good price. But it does not fill the desire for an 1860. Cabella's, Bass Pro Shop, Midway USA and DGW have been consulted. I am looking for either new or very good condition, steel frame and .44.

Also looking for Dragoon of similar description.

Fingers McGee
February 15, 2009, 12:18 AM
If you keep an eye on Gunbroker or Auction Arms, there are new steel framed Uberti or Pietta 1860s that pop up from time to time in the $200-$225 range. Sometimes even less.

Dragoons show up o there reasonably too. Here's one with a low starting bid that you might be able to get cheap. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=122843862

FM

pohill
February 15, 2009, 02:26 PM
I thought the only makers of Dragoons were ASM and Colt. I'd ask that seller who made the gun - is it a Colt 3rd Generation or is it actually marked Uberti?
Have you thought about the Ruger Old Army? I sold my Dragoon because it was very similiar to the Ruger (size, weight, etc) which I used alot more often.

Fingers McGee
February 15, 2009, 05:05 PM
I thought the only makers of Dragoons were ASM and Colt. I'd ask that seller who made the gun - is it a Colt 3rd Generation or is it actually marked Uberti?


Uberti has always (ok, at least the last 15+ years) made Dragoons (Hartford, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd models). I've had a few (3rd models) over the intervening years that were marked Uberti.. The most recent Rock Island Auctions auction had at least two lots (of more than one gun) that had NIB Uberti Dragoons. Dixie also lists Dragoons made by Uberti.

FM

bprevolver
February 15, 2009, 05:35 PM
Being that a brass frame 1860 Army is not a historically correct replica its use is limited to only shooting. It can not be used in reenactments. The same is true of a .44cal 1851 Navy with brass frame. An 1851 Navy model in .36cal with a brass frame is actually a replica Schneider & Glassick. To be really correct the cylinder should not be engraved.

The Uberti Dragoon on Auction is a very interesting variation. It is a 3rd Model Dragoon cut for shoulder stock but without a rear sight on the barrel. The most common variation of a 3rd Model Dragoon Cut for Shoulder Stock is a flip up rear sight. Another rare variation is a fixed rear sight on barrel.

pohill
February 15, 2009, 06:03 PM
Uberti has always (ok, at least the last 15+ years) made Dragoons
That's good to know. Where does the "3rd Generation" in the auction ad come from? Maybe he meant 3rd Model.

Fingers McGee
February 15, 2009, 11:44 PM
Quote bprevolver
The Uberti Dragoon on Auction is a very interesting variation. It is a 3rd Model Dragoon cut for shoulder stock but without a rear sight on the barrel. The most common variation of a 3rd Model Dragoon Cut for Shoulder Stock is a flip up rear sight. Another rare variation is a fixed rear sight on barrel.

Jim - It could have come from Dixie. One of the 3rd models that they list is a military model that says it's cut for the shoulder stock in the description and from what I can tell in the picture, no sight on the barrel. They also list a 'civilian' model that's not cut.

Quote pohill:
Where does the "3rd Generation" in the auction ad come from? Maybe he meant 3rd Model.

pohill - I kinda took it for granted that he was talking about a 3rd model. IME most nimrods selling C&Bs on the auction sites don't have the faintest idea what they have, even if they have the box. They don't know who made them, when they were made, or what the model is. They're always misidentifying .44 cal 51 Navy repos as 1860 Armies or sometimes 1860 Navies. And don't get me started on misidentifying 2nd Generation & Sig series Colts.

Doc Hoy
February 18, 2009, 01:29 PM
To Pohill, in answer to your post of a coupla days ago....

I have a Ruger Old Army in stainless which I gave $395 for on Gunbroker.com. It is my second ROA. I like it so much, I sometimes sleep with it. The first one I bought at a PX overseas for $85 in about 1979. Wish I still had it.

sundance44s
February 18, 2009, 02:29 PM
Sleeping with a Ruger ROA .......I sleep with an ugly woman a mean dog and a 1911 ...:D.......... I mean a beauty-ful woman ..my finger slipped .:eek:

Doc Hoy
February 18, 2009, 04:07 PM
Sundance,

After all, your dog might read this post when you are not looking.

sundance44s
February 18, 2009, 05:24 PM
Ain`t the dog I was worried about ..:D