PDA

View Full Version : CCW question


alzika
February 10, 2009, 11:55 PM
Let's say that a guy jumps in the car with me at a gas station. I get out of the car and draw my weapon on him and he gets out of my car, as well. He is standing at a distance of about 10 feet at this point.

If he approaches me after my weapon is drawn, what do I do? If he is within a distance of a few feet, I am worried that he could possibly take the weapon from me. However, up to this point, there was never a "threat" to my life other than the fact that he jumped in the car with me.

What do I do? Shoot the guy because he could possibly take the weapon from me?

OnTheFly
February 11, 2009, 12:24 AM
I'm not sure if I understand the question correctly, but...


Do not draw a weapon unless you feel that your life, or the lives of your loved ones are in jeopardy.

Do not draw your weapon unless you plan to use it.

Shoot to stop the threat. This doesn't equal kill, it means shoot until the threat is no longer a threat.


You also need to consider the local laws. Do you have a "Castle Doctrine" etc. to determine when it is considered appropriate to draw and use your firearm.
Edit: I must also add that this is quite a strange post and is highly suspicious. This sounds like a question that a non (maybe anti) gun person would ask. The assumption by many antis is that the non-military/police should not have a firearm because they are at higher risk of having it taken from them and used against them. It also sounds similar to some of the arguments I've heard from my anti-gun friends who don't understand the moral obligation when carrying a gun. One friend stated she would "feel bad if she shot someone because they were walking out of her house with a television". Clearly she does not understand that in many places, you are not allowed to use deadly force unless your life, or your loved ones lives, are at risk. This attitude wreaks of the fear that people who go to the trouble of obtaining a CC permit will simply shoot the first person who makes them mad.

In short...this sounds like a post from an anti. If this is a serious question from a gun enthusiast, then you better do some more reading and get your ducks in order before you carry a firearm. Reading and understanding the rules I've listed above would be a bare minimum start in that effort.

Fly

TheDingy
February 11, 2009, 12:31 AM
I live in Texas and we have a castle law.

I would be in fear of my life when he started to jump in the car. I would draw and as I was exiting the car do a 3 round burst center mass. Then evaluate the situation.

Cheers.

mnhntr
February 11, 2009, 12:45 AM
depends, if you think you have the ability to defend yourself against the person, you should not have drawn your weapon. if you can escape the situation, you should do so unless you live in a castle doctrine state. if the person is an obvious threat and you are not able to get away then shoot to stop the threat.
if you are an anti trolling, get a life. if not, welcome to the forum.

Keltyke
February 11, 2009, 09:02 AM
We have Castle Doctrine in SC that extends to the vehicle you're in. We also have no duty to retreat. That being said:

To draw and possibly fire, you MUST feel that you are in imminent danger of loss of life or severe bodily injury. The BG must have:

1. Opportunity
2. Ability
3. Intent

12GaugeShuggoth
February 11, 2009, 09:10 AM
The easiest and also best way to resolve this situation is pretty simple.
1. Work on your situational awareness. Someone getting close enough to enter your vehicle should already be on your radar.
2. Keep you vehicle doors locked. It's a safe and simple habit that more people should really follow.

OnTheFly
February 11, 2009, 10:05 AM
alzika,

What say you? One post asking a question and no response. Are you new to guns, been around them for a while, or are you an anti-gunner?

Fly

OldMarksman
February 11, 2009, 10:34 AM
If this is a serious question from a gun enthusiast, then you better do some more reading and get your ducks in order before you carry a firearm.

That's good advice for everyone out there, and I'll add, get some training on the subject of the use of lethal force.

David Armstrong
February 11, 2009, 01:12 PM
What do I do? Shoot the guy because he could possibly take the weapon from me?
You cannot shoot based on a "could possibly" issue. You can shoot if you reasonably feel that you are in danger of death or great bodily harm (specific details vary from state to state).

Gazpacho
February 11, 2009, 01:21 PM
Retreat if possible, even if the law says you don't have to. Your firearm is a last resort.

Lee Lapin
February 11, 2009, 01:32 PM
1) Get training

2) Get training

3) GET TRAINING!!!

Go to http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/basictraining.asp , and look at the Personal Protection In The Home and the Personal Protection Outside The Home classes- AFTER you take the basic handgun classes.

You need training, and reading an Internet forum IS NOT a substitute. There are other options as well, ask at your local gun shop, gun club, shooting range or consult your local sheriff or police department to locate training opportunities near you.

Be Safe,

lpl

PhoenixConflagration
February 11, 2009, 01:39 PM
In Florida, the inside of your vehicle is the same as the inside of your home. If someone jumps into your car with you, you are legally presumed to be in fear of death/bodily harm. At that point it is up to you to decide to draw/shoot, or exit the vehicle and let them have it. Me personally, I would not exit my vehicle (my gun is accessible at all times). I would draw and gauge reaction before firing. I know someone who's been through this personally. Someone jumped in their van full of tools while others surrounded him. When he put his gun to the guy's head, the guy started screaming and wailing and his buddies drove off without him. The guy then got out and ran like hell. No shots were fired.

Glenn E. Meyer
February 11, 2009, 02:53 PM
If you are in the car - how about locking the door? Also, I think cars can move - why not?

Or it's just a silly question.

BikerRN
February 12, 2009, 02:31 AM
Retreat if possible, even if the law says you don't have to. Your firearm is a last resort.

Just because the laws says you "can", doesn't always mean you should.

Biker

Playboypenguin
February 12, 2009, 02:36 AM
If I am at an establishment that is open for business., I jump out of the car and head straight for other people. I get away from him and into the store if there is one ...or at least up to the attendants window while calling the cops. Pulling the trigger one someone for "moving towards you" is just asking to become someone's dance partner in the pokie.

Brit
February 12, 2009, 05:33 AM
If you are in the car - how about locking the door? Also, I think cars can move - why not?

Or it's just a silly question.
__________________


Where do we get these guys?

jgrns
February 12, 2009, 01:24 PM
How about driving away???!!!
I'm hopeing you DON'T have a permit....

What if he got into your car by mistake, got out, realized his mistake and was returning to appologise????

jgrns
February 12, 2009, 01:28 PM
The test is:

Were you in eminent danger of "great bodily harm or death". That's what you'll be judged by. And, juries caqn be strange animals.

Hornett
February 12, 2009, 02:09 PM
I agree with OnTheFly

I don't think any 'real' gun owner here would draw on someone because the guy "jumps in the car with me"

You just drew on someone that did not pose a threat.
Maybe he's up to no good, maybe not. You just don't know at the time the gun is drawn in this scenario.

The whole premise is ludicrous.

The fact that alzika has a grand total of 1 post and has not responded in his own thread just adds to my suspicions.

Perhaps this thread should be closed as an "endless mindless scenario" :D

LHB1
February 12, 2009, 04:41 PM
What do you think? New member, one post with question, several responses by other members, NO FOLLW-UP by OP in two days. Sick, busy at work, computer broke, rude, forgetful, anti-gunner, troll????

BuckHammer
February 12, 2009, 05:14 PM
How about driving away???!!!
Possibly because he's at a gas station where he's pumping gas that he has not prepaid for. I can pump at many stations where I live without prepaying. Not paying for (stealing) gas tends to be highly frowned upon. Then again, it may be a better alternative than shooting an individual. You can always go back and pay. Also, many stations don't allow customers to pump without a credit card at the pump or without prepaying, so if that is the case, then that would rule out that reason not to drive away.

Also, since he's at a gas station, has anyone ever thought about the danger of expending a round near so many gas fumes? The burning of the powder may be dangerous in that scenario. I am curious to see what others think of this possible danger.

I don't know what to think about this scenario, but the best advice in this scenario is the following.

Do not draw a weapon unless you feel that your life, or the lives of your loved ones are in jeopardy.
Do not draw your weapon unless you plan to use it.
Shoot to stop the threat. This doesn't equal kill, it means shoot until the threat is no longer a threat.

Any .45
February 12, 2009, 05:17 PM
How about being aware of your surroundings and never letting the guy in.
1. Be aware of your surroundings its survival of the fittest
2. Lock your door
3. If you were to be harmed, a criminal with intent to harm would have done it as soon as he jumped in the car. If he was going to rob you as soon as he was moving to do it he would have been a step ahead of you with his weapon what ever it maybe ready for action. Then once you stepped out of the car he would jump in the driver seat and drove away. People need money not jail on a murder one rap.

Don't be anti-gun loser, trolling to hear negative remarks on how we would blast him or cap him, no questions asked! The people on this forum are law abiding and have more knowledge of legislature and laws than most of the law writers themselves. Have alot of common sense and will help newbs if need be. So if you are a newb and just asking questions, welcome to TFL, if you're a troller. Please leave us be. Thank you and God Bless.

alzika
February 12, 2009, 07:30 PM
I really don't appreciate the negative responses here. I'm a new gun owner looking into a CCW permit and I'm trying to determine what you can do if you have drawn on someone and they get close enough to take the weapon from you.

Again, I don't appreciate the negativism. I hope all new members aren't treated in this manner.

Brian Pfleuger
February 12, 2009, 07:37 PM
I'm a new gun owner looking into a CCW permit and I'm trying to determine what you can do if you have drawn on someone and they get close enough to take the weapon from you.


I would advise you to take classes to this end. There are far too many variables, including local and state laws, to do much justice to a scenario like you have presented. Many areas require training classes to issue permits but those classes are, at best, elementary level and frequently nothing more than "Don't point your gun at anything you aren't willing to destroy." which, while important, should be the basis of gun ownership not concealed carry. The NRA and many other organizations, probably some local to you, can provide you with the information and training you require. Your local permit issuing office can (or should be able to) direct you to the appropriate places.


Again, I don't appreciate the negativism. I hope all new members aren't treated in this manner.

*Sigh* It is all to common. :o:barf:

Any .45
February 12, 2009, 08:10 PM
We don't mean to be negative, we TFLers are very careful and critical about our guns. And although you cought the sharp end of the sword, we have had alot of trollers just trying to get us rowled up and say thngs they want gun owners to say just to strengthen there arguements that we gun toting bandits are crazy.:eek:

So please accept our apology, and welcome to TFL, I trust you will fin lots of knowledge here and alot of fun threads. If you are into guns and do want to learn just hang around and you will see things get real good. Well start here http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194868&highlight=lawdog+files I promise you'll enjoy it.

OnTheFly
February 12, 2009, 08:15 PM
alzika,

Glad to hear you deny the suspicions brought on by my paranoia. However, you have to understand. It happens fairly often that an anti (a.k.a. "Troll") will come on this website and post a similar question. Not to learn or expand their knowledge, but to re-educate TFL members as to our wrong mindset. So I apologize for taking an immediate defensive position.

That being said, you will find many helpful people here on TFL. Despite the negative comments, I think many have already given you great advice about where to start. Most of it centers around getting some kind of training and having a basic understanding of your local/state law. Start with a basic firearms class and work your way up to a defensive shooting course. Read, read, read, and read some more. You won't find one single document that gives you a step by step process of assessing when it is justified to use lethal force. You will, however, find opinions and real life events that can shape your mindset.

Before you have to use any of these new found skills from your training and the knowledge amassed from your studies, some of the best advise is to be aware of your surroundings. Be cautious and observant. Stay near other people or simply leave the area.

If you haven't used the feature, search TFL. Specifically the "Tactics and Training" section. Ask more questions here, but understand that you will hear over and over the same statements as you witnessed in this thread. Be aware of your surroundings, leave the situation, be in imminent danger with no escape before drawing and firing, etc.

Finally...welcome to TFL. Stick around and you will find that we aren't all as bad as I initially came off. At least the other guys here aren't as bad as I am. :rolleyes:

Fly

Hornett
February 13, 2009, 10:47 AM
Welcome to TFL.
Your response has allayed my fears about your sincerity.
I am sorry for offending.

I do stand by my opinion, though.

Let's say that a guy jumps in the car with me at a gas station. I get out of the car and draw my weapon on him and he gets out of my car, as well.There was no reason to draw at that point.
By drawing your weapon at this point you create the situation that you find yourself in in the second paragraph of your scenario.

Do get some training.
It is worth every penny you pay for it.
They will cover not only your weapon, but when to use it.

Creature
February 13, 2009, 11:18 AM
It seems to me that there are some here who need to enroll in a refresher course for CCW education.

There is only "rule" regarding DRAWING your weapon. You can legally draw your weapon if you have a reasonable expectation that you may need to use your weapon in order to protect yourself of someone else from bodily harm. But you had better know your state and locality's brandishing laws forwards and backwards...and you had better be the first dialing 911 to report a weapons incident.

If your life is in jeopardy and wait until those three criteria are meet, you may be dead before you can draw your weapon. Those three rules that were listed in previous posts are the (general) criteria that need to be meet in order to pull the trigger.

armsmaster270
February 13, 2009, 11:31 AM
Get out of the car taking your keys go to the station office and if it's needed have them cal 911 for you, you don't need to display the weapon yet. If he pulls a knife and advances that's different. If he has no weapon get certified for pepper spray. Anytime you use pepper spray or pull your weapon CALL THE POLICE and do it first. If he calss them and says you sprayed him or brandished a firearm at him and you haven't called the police first your going to be looked on as the bad guy.

Glenn E. Meyer
February 13, 2009, 12:24 PM
That's good advice. Distance and attention are your friends. One might recommend to start shouting : Police, call the police, get away from me!

Establish you are the victim and retreat.

One hidden suggestion in this is that you are in a Tueller Drill scenario but without clear indication of a weapon, direct threats with a giant disparity in force - it would be hard to justify opening fire.

Don't have a focus on the gun - everything is a nail, when you draw a hammer - so to speak.

This also speaks as others have to get training that includes the continuum of responses and not just handgun usage. Mindset, tactics, AOJP, ADEE - etc. should be part of your mental armory.

alzika
February 13, 2009, 01:32 PM
Maybe the car was a bad example. I see posts here all of the time where people say they had to draw on someone. An example, which I'm mostly just recalling from memory: a guy is walking through parking lot and notices someone shady walking towards him. he tells the guy to stop and the guy continues to slowly walk towards him. at this point, the weapon is drawn.

now, were the actions of the CCW holder correct in the scenario I posted above?

if so, what happens if the person continues to advance, up to the point where they can fight you for your weapon?

Sparks2112
February 13, 2009, 02:35 PM
Maybe the car was a bad example. I see posts here all of the time where people say they had to draw on someone. An example, which I'm mostly just recalling from memory: a guy is walking through parking lot and notices someone shady walking towards him. he tells the guy to stop and the guy continues to slowly walk towards him. at this point, the weapon is drawn.

now, were the actions of the CCW holder correct in the scenario I posted above?

if so, what happens if the person continues to advance, up to the point where they can fight you for your weapon?

I didn't draw the weapon, I just thought about it real hard. :D And he wasn't moving slowly by any means.

Assuming you're talking about the Wal-mart parking lot thread.

oldkim
February 13, 2009, 02:36 PM
Now, you put a new scenario about being in a parking lot and a guy is approaching you.

You verbally gave the command to back off and he still continues. You draw and show you have a gun. He still continues....

Well I would say the guy has made his intentions known and has become a legal threat to you. Just as you say.... if he's too close he may take your gun and subdue you. He's there to do you harm.

No sane person would advance on a person with a gun.

Ultimately, this situation depends on many factors but... if he continues to advance at you - he's making a threatening movement.

So for other factors:
1) how far is he from you
2) how fast is he moving towards you
3) is there others around you (is this an isolated part of the parking lot)
4) is there more than one person

What's next?

Take aim and Command him to stop. If he still advances he's a threat.

Use enough force to stop the threat. Remember your not the attacker. You are defending yourself. Does this mean it could mean lethal force... sure.

wildturkey76209
February 13, 2009, 03:00 PM
Lots of folks have used justified deadly force only to have their lives ruined in civil court. Just because one is within the bounds of criminal law doesn't mean you won't be dragged into court. In the first scenario if the guy wants your car, let him have it. You have insurance for that. What is the deductible on your policy? $500? $1000? How much legal representation do you think you can buy for that?

In scenario number two you have shown the bad guy your weapon. You have commanded him to stop. He has not so you have a reasonable fear for your life or health. Shoot him.

Firepower!
February 13, 2009, 03:37 PM
If you draw you shoot when push comes to shove.

However, I think you are not ready for ccw yet since first you need to figure out when to use or not to use the gun, and possibly take seld defense with handgun classes.

oldkim
February 13, 2009, 03:41 PM
If you draw. This does not equate to you have to shoot. Drawing is a sequence in stepping up the need to respond to a situation.

For obvious reasons, if you draw the level of threat is great. But if the bad guy (BD) runs away you don't shoot. But on the other hand if they keep coming then that's the next step. Shoot if you have to.

Just remember for every action there is a responsibility or consequence to those actions.

----
Yes, do take a class on the legal issues surrounding concealed carry in your state. It's good to know the basics of your state laws and be familiar with the legal intent of "lethal force."

ltcdoty
February 13, 2009, 03:46 PM
When I went to the police basic school, oh so many years ago, they had a drill using video and a push button. The camera was your eyes, and the button the trigger of your sidearm. You would go through several senarios and you had to decide if you could shoot or not. By the end of the drill everybody in the class was shooting anyone they saw in the video!. One of the senarios was you were approached in a parking lot by a bruiser of a man
who would not stop when warned several times. He did not display a weapon, but kept on coming. Turns out he was deaf..The point is you are on your own when you pull the trigger, police officer or civilian. If you can retreat ..retreat.
The best advice I have read here,( including mine), is go get some serious training!
Regards,
TomD:)

oldkim
February 13, 2009, 04:01 PM
I knew that "deaf" equation would come up.

Just remember if you point a gun at a deaf person (but they can see) they're not likely to approach you for whatever reason.

If they're blind then how would they know to approach you - if they can hear then your screaming at them would deter them too.

There are a lot of variable and factors that come in. Situational awareness is a key. Know is happening and be aware of it.

Retreating does have a legal and logical aspect but you can only retreat so much before you lose tactical superiority even with a gun.

So, on the other hand don't shoot if the guy is 100 ft away. If they get close enough to you... what is too close. Below 25 ft. You have to remember our normal space boundary is about 6 feet. Most shootings I've heard is about 21 feet (7 yards). Why? A man running can be on you within less than 2 seconds. This is too close.

The "Castle Doctine" comes into play a bit. Might want to research what that means. Just Google it and you'll find a lot of info.

David Armstrong
February 13, 2009, 06:27 PM
now, were the actions of the CCW holder correct in the scenario I posted above?
if so, what happens if the person continues to advance, up to the point where they can fight you for your weapon?
No, the actions are not correct. The person has as much right to be there as you do. You don't get to threaten people and brandish weapons just because you don't like it that they are doing something totally legal. It is not illegal to walk towards you, it is not illegal to ignore people without any authority over you who are giving you orders, it is not illegal to to walk within a few inches of someone else. If you pull out your gun and point it at him, you are probably the one committing the crime and he is probably legally allowed to use deadly force against you to stop your actions.

oldkim
February 13, 2009, 08:12 PM
Your turning it on the flipside a bit too far.

The scenario was in a parking lot (most likely empty) and a strange guy approaches. You feel threatened and warn him off. He continues advancing and more threatening.

Yes, people are free to roam all over the place but not be threatening to others. There is a "social" distance typically about 6 feet in semi crowded areas and if more crowded mere inches but that's usually in a crowded auditorium or elevator. In an empty parking lot that's a whole different animal.

Are you a defense attorney because this BG has more rights than the good citizen just taking care of their business.

Back to point. Would a reasonable citizen feel threated by an approaching person when there is obviously other routes this person can take rather than straight at you. Yes. So, who is in the wrong here. The good citizen has asked for the other to comply and be less threatening. In this scenario they have not and have actually indicated to be someone more threatening, therefore, the need to escualate the response has increased. etc, etc.

It's a two sided road we live in. But a good citizen would avoid the situation and not threaten others. Also, if I was the guy walking and someone was asking me to walk someplace else and I can see I was causing that person fear - what would a respectable citizen do. Provoke or just go around?

Dave, Would you go forward when a person is obviously afraid of you?

OnTheFly
February 13, 2009, 10:47 PM
If you draw. This does not equate to you have to shoot. Drawing is a sequence in stepping up the need to respond to a situation.

oldkim,

That sounds better than what I said. The #2 item on my list should read "Do not draw your weapon unless you are prepared to use it."


Do not draw a weapon unless you feel that your life, or the lives of your loved ones are in jeopardy.
Do not draw your weapon unless you plan to use it.
Shoot to stop the threat. This doesn't equal kill, it means shoot until the threat is no longer a threat.


Fly

David Armstrong
February 14, 2009, 12:16 AM
The scenario was in a parking lot (most likely empty) and a strange guy approaches. You feel threatened and warn him off. He continues advancing and more threatening.
Let's look at what was said: "he tells the guy to stop and the guy continues to slowly walk towards him." Sorry, but you are going to have a hard time explaining what is threatening about somebody walking slowly toward you. So we have a guy that walks slowly toward you, he's dressed sort of shabby, he has every right to be where he is and walk where he is walking, and he isn't impressed when you start trying to scare him by threatening him. I think you'll have a hard time explaining to a group of reasonable people why you needed to draw a gun in the first place, much less threaten him with it.
Are you a defense attorney because this BG has more rights than the good citizen just taking care of their business.
No, they both have the same rights. He has as much right to be there as you do. He is not a BG, he has done nothing illegal.
Dave, Would you go forward when a person is obviously afraid of you?
Perhaps. Why is he afraid? Is his fear rational? Why should I have to alter my choice of pathway because somebody is leaping to conclusions? Lots of folks (not saying I would) will push situations like that simply because their dignity has been offended, or for other reasons.

BuckHammer
February 14, 2009, 01:16 AM
I think that it would be helpful to clarify on some points of the parking lot scenario.

1. What time is it? Possibly very important.
2. Is the parking lot nearly empty, or very crowded?
3. Are you between him and any possible destinations of his?

No matter how these questions are answered, I would say that the subject should try to move out of the approaching individual's way first, then if the individual alters his or her course to correspond with the subject's new position, that's where it starts getting dicey. In the case that that happens:

1. Can you arrive at your vehicle before him?
2. Can you get into some kind of public establishment before him?
3. Are there bystanders nearby who may assist in some way?

Honestly, no matter how these questions are answered, I can only imagine a narrow scope of possibilities in which the subject should draw, at least if it were me. I am operating under the assumption that the person is reasonable and the assumption that a reasonable person has "not shooting another individual" high on his or her priority list.

Basically, there is not enough information for anyone to give a straightforward answer to the question of "Should I draw and/or shoot in this situation."

Also, I agree that if you are going to draw a handgun, you better be prepared to use it, although that doesn't mean that you will use it. Isn't it true that most Defensive Gun Use occurrences did not involve the discharge of a firearm? That is not a rhetorical question, I cannot remember if that is true or not :D. I seem to remember some people on this forum posting that... Oh well, please give more information on the hypothetical if you want more straightforward answers.

oldkim
February 14, 2009, 01:53 AM
The statistics of how much a handgun has deterred crime is not something you can easily trace as it goes from a preventative rather than a statistical number.

Let's say a robbery has happened 5 times in the last week. 2 times a gun was used, 2 times a knife and 1 unknown. How can you track how many times a crime was prevented? You can't trace that.

NRA has some numbers but I believe most all are in agreement that there is vastly large number of crimes that have been prevented in some degree by citizens (some are armed).

Just by some good citizen stepping in and saying that they're calling the cops.

------------

Sorry went off a tangent there.

So back to the parking lot scenario. All those factors comes into play. I mean if it's crowded than one simply would have to yell out for help, right? Attracts attention and deters BG's from doing bad things. On the other hand. Let's say your closing the store and it's midnight. No one is out there except you two. It's dark.

Your in the country, isolated on some farm.... Just kidding on the last one.

Situational awareness comes back.

Your car is down the block and he's catching up to you. I mean we can get really silly here with all the scenarios.

Have you ever read a transcript from a court case? It's very dry. It just a print out what people said. Nothing else. Now have you ever heard of (listened to) a court case - very different. The nuances of what people say and what they say are waaaaay different.

I bring this up because reading David's assessment kinda reminds me of a lawyer - a defense lawyer. Oh, this robber has every right to be there tooo. Oh, the robber was just minding his own bussiness when this man "attacked him" Come on. We're talking about a parking lot in the dark, alone. Not at the mall in Nordstroms in the shoe section.

We're the good guys here right?

David Armstrong
February 14, 2009, 01:29 PM
Come on. We're talking about a parking lot in the dark, alone.
I fail to see either of those qualfiers in the scenario as first posted.
We're the good guys here right?
Perhaps. The other guy could be just as much a good guy as you, me, or others. When you start pulling out gins and threatening others who are not doing anything wrong, your good guy status becomes suspect in my book. And i'm not a lawyer, I am an expert witness on tactics, training, etc. I have worked for defense lawyers and I've worked for prosecuting attorneys.
Oh, this robber has every right to be there tooo. Oh, the robber was just minding his own bussiness when this man "attacked him" Come on.
Yes, let's "come on." You've now added elements of darkness, walking alone, threatening behavior, and robbery to the first presentation in an attempt to make your positon better. If the position is good you shouldn't need to add all these things to try and justify an action, IMO.

BuckHammer
February 14, 2009, 01:59 PM
I fail to see either of those qualfiers in the scenario as first posted.
I fail to see where it says those qualifiers aren't the case. The scenario as presented is far to vague to say one way or the other the proper course of action. You can't say "He's minding his own business" because the context of the event is not included.

Let's say, for example (this could be the scenario, since it doesn't say that it isn't) that it's 1 AM, in the middle of a large, empty parking lot. You are near one corner, with no possible destination behind you, when the guy starts walking toward you. After being warned, and as he continues to proceed, I don't see him as "minding his own business", because at that point, he is not respecting your decent, understandable request. Even at that point, however, you can't say one way or the other if it would be alright to draw or not. I would suggest at least some measure of avoidance first.

Let's say separately, for example, that it's noon at a mall parking lot. You've got the mall behind you when a guy is coming toward you. You yell a warning, but it's awful noisy, and he might not be able to hear you. There are lots of bystanders who don't seem concerned. The parking lot is very crowded. My take on this is that the guy seems like he's minding his own business.

My point is, these are two very different events, but both fit the description given by alzika equally. Therefore, it's very difficult to come to conclusions about the event at all, until at least a few more details are included. I stand by my previous post.

OnTheFly
February 14, 2009, 02:03 PM
Beam me up Scottie! There's hostile aliens on this planet. :rolleyes:

Fly

David Armstrong
February 14, 2009, 02:38 PM
I fail to see where it says those qualifiers aren't the case.
But thta is not how things work. You base responses on the information given, not on what might be the case. The information given is quite simple. I agree that it would be nice to have lots more info, but the scenarion as offered gives no indication of many of the things some are using to justify a very questionable response, IMO.
I stand by my previous post.
And I agree with your previous post. My point of contention is with those who keep having to add qualifiers to defend their position, as it indicates their position is questionable given the information that is available. Here is the scenario again:
"a guy is walking through parking lot and notices someone shady walking towards him. he tells the guy to stop and the guy continues to slowly walk towards him. at this point, the weapon is drawn."
Given that information and no other, I would suggest the drawing is not only unneccesary, but quite possibly illegal.

BuckHammer
February 14, 2009, 03:09 PM
I fail to see where it says those qualifiers aren't the case.
This part of my previous post is part of a much larger post. If one reads the whole thing, they will find that it is not on either side and was made solely to point out the fact that you can't say whether it was alright to draw or not! By saying that they guy was "minding his own business", you are adding the qualifier that he was minding his own business! It is impossible to tell! That conclusion can only be made based on the context. You can say that he "may be minding his own business", but that doesn't tell you anything.

EDIT: I'm not specifically saying that you said "minding his own business" and by using "you" I didn't mean to refer directly to David Armstrong. I was more just speaking in my own style. Please keep this edit in mind before quoting specific parts of my post. "You" was meant to refer to people in general, and "minding his own business" was meant to refer to saying that kind of thing.

OldMarksman
February 14, 2009, 05:37 PM
From wildturkey in Texas: In scenario number two you have shown the bad guy your weapon

As David Armstrong has pointed out, there is no reason to characterize him as a "bad guy," and if you have drawn, you may be adjudged to be the bad guy.

You have commanded him to stop.

Your authority for giving another citizen such a command would be... ?

He has not so you have a reasonable fear for your life or health. Shoot him.

How would you successfully articulate, and convince others, that you had reason to believe that your use of deadly force was immediately necessary to protect yourself against the other person's unlawful use of deadly force or to prevent his imminent commission of acts involving the felonious use of force or threats of force against you? Here's the relevant part of the Texas Penal Code:

Sec. 9.32. Deadly Force in Defense of Person.

(a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:
(1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and (2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or
(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping,
murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery

Here are some things worth printing and studying carefully, too lengthy to paste text here but very worthwhile. A person not aware of the laws may have a lot of time to study these when it is too late:

http://www.useofforce.us/

http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/02_StudyDay.htm

http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/01c1e7698280d20385256d0b00789923/f587d7d10c34fff2852572b90069bc3c?OpenDocument&Click=

Some thoughts from a lay person: In Texas you have no legal responsibility to retreat. However, the other person has every right to walk right by you. If he gets very close and does then attack, you may find yourself in a very dangerous situation.

Wouldn't it be a whole lot wiser to create the distance yourself?

David Armstrong
February 14, 2009, 05:48 PM
This part of my previous post is part of a much larger post. If one reads the whole thing, they will find that it is not on either side and was made solely to point out the fact that you can't say whether it was alright to draw or not!
Sure you can. You (generic, not specific) take the information that is available and base your decision on that information. If there is nothing there to indicate that one could draw, then one cannot draw. That is a basis for all reasoned discussion and certainly is the basis for a reasonable response. You must have a reasonable fear, etc. Absent that, you cannot legally act. You deal with the information provided. Then if more information becomes available one can modify their position to meet the new information.
By saying that they guy was "minding his own business", you are adding the qualifier that he was minding his own business!
Maybe I missed it, but where did anyone other than you say that?
EDIT: I'm not specifically saying that you said "minding his own business" and by using "you" I didn't mean to refer directly to David Armstrong.
When one quotes a person directly I think it normal to assume that the person quoted is the "you" being mentioned. So if you are not specifically saying "you" as a direct reference to me, why do you keep quoting me to talk about "you"? I'm getting lost here<G>!:confused:

BuckHammer
February 14, 2009, 07:30 PM
To explain how I used the word "you":
Take "By committing a crime, you become a criminal" (note that the sentence is used for grammar, not an essential part of the debate). I'm not saying that any specific person became a criminal or committed a crime. I'm referring to any person. It would probably be better to phrase it this way:
"By committing a crime, one becomes a criminal"

I hope that helps.

EDIT: I did some thinking and realized that most of the post was an overreaction. I apologize to anyone who read it. In place of all that junk, I will only say to go back and read what I have already posted.

Nnobby45
February 14, 2009, 08:39 PM
You cannot shoot based on a "could possibly" issue. You can shoot if you reasonably feel that you are in danger of death or great bodily harm (specific details vary from state to state).

I agree.

Ayoob once pointed out, on a tape I have, that if you were holding someone at gunpoint and they reached for their own gun or a gun sitting on, say, a table--- deadly force would be lawful.

He felt that that one could assume that if a criminal advanced toward you when you had him a gunpoint, you'd be just as justified in using deadly force, since his actions would be consistent with arming himself with your gun.

I agree. I'd be afraid of being disarmed.

Ayoob didn't say that every prosecutor would necessarily see it that way---but what else is new?:cool:

David Armstrong
February 15, 2009, 12:23 PM
To explain how I used the word "you":

I understood, and that is why I put the little <G> and the smiley. I do it myself a lot. No harm no foul, let's all sing Kumbya and such.;)

David Armstrong
February 15, 2009, 12:26 PM
He felt that that one could assume that if a criminal advanced toward you when you had him a gunpoint, you'd be just as justified in using deadly force, since his actions would be consistent with arming himself with your gun.
I agree with Mas on that, but that is based on the idea that you have already found a person involved in a crime and have elected to try to stop the commission of the crime. Very different, IMO, than someone walking in a public place who has not committed any crime yet.

JohnH1963
February 15, 2009, 12:31 PM
This is a good question.

You have your gun drawn on an unarmed person and they continue to approach you in an aggressive manner.

Nevermind the reasoning of why you drew your gun, lets focus on what you should do if your gun is drawn and the person keeps approaching you.

What is the right thing to do? Fire on the person? Try to fend them off hand to hand? Do nothing?

This is a good question for the officers in this forum as they have their guns drawn at times on people who are not armed.

The only people that will determine if your actions are justified are a judge or a jury I might add...

Only S&W and Me
February 15, 2009, 01:21 PM
Great question....I would like know this myself. Someone here posted that this happened to them and the guy fired a warning shot over the approaching person's head and they stopped. Not recommended, but what else can you do? You either aim for COM or fire the warning shot. I would be as aggressive as hell verbally before the gun is fired. You certainly don't want the BG to come at you and wrestle for your gun!

Brit
February 16, 2009, 08:36 PM
David, was the following a spelling mistake? or are you deciding to defuse the situation, by being sociable?

[QUOTE][Perhaps The other guy could be just as much a good guy as you, me, or others. When you start pulling out gins and threatening thers /QUOTE]

David Armstrong
February 17, 2009, 10:33 AM
LOL! Never underestimate my poor typing ability! however, if a nice gin would solve the problem, I'd go for it<G>!

ezenbrowntown
February 27, 2009, 12:00 PM
Glad to have you amongst us..........

You've already learned a valuable lesson, take everything with a grain of salt! :p There is a lot of information to be had on here. Some will be easy to find, some will have to be sifted through. You sure to find people who think like you do, some that seem a little extreme/timid as the case may be.

Concealed carry, IMO, is much more than just basic firearms knowledge. I've been taught firearms safety since I was little, been around guns my whole life, I understand safely handling a firearm, etc. However, CCW is a whole other animal. There is much more liability involved than just simple plinking on a range. I've personally been steadily researching it for the last year, and I plan on actually taking the class this next month.

Some take the approach of "you must carry now, before it is too late". To each their own, but someone not ready (physically, emotionally and/or spiritually) or prepared can be a serious liability to his/her self or family in my opinion.

Carrying a handgun is similar to having a fire extinguisher. You get it with the hopes that you'll never have to use it.