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View Full Version : New reproduction Garand vs WW2 original?


skidooman603
February 10, 2009, 12:19 PM
Looking at buying a M1A Garand. Prices look similar new Springfield repo vs WW2 vintage. Which is the way to go?:confused:

musher
February 10, 2009, 12:30 PM
Original USGI, no question about it.

globemaster3
February 10, 2009, 01:07 PM
Depends on what's important to you. If you want an original weapon with flawless finish, then maybe new would be the way for you.

However, if you prefer a weapon with some history, character, charm perhaps, then you really want a vintage piece.

Just my .02, eclancy is very educated in the way of the M-1. Might not hurt to pm him.

skidooman603
February 10, 2009, 01:28 PM
musher, reasoning behind your preference? Thanks for info. Really want one but don't really care if it was battle used for the authenticity per se. want a quality flawless function weapon for high power shoots ect.

GregM
February 10, 2009, 03:58 PM
I prefer USGI myself, have two of 'em. I love the history thats attached to the GI rifles. You can literally spend hours upon hours looking up markings on the metal trying to figure our the story behind them. The GI rifles also have forged receiver as compared to a cast new receiver. Nothing wrong with a cast one, but different than what John Garand intended.
Springfield has discontinued the Garand, but you get a lifetime warranty if you buy one so take that into consideration. Also consider though, that they have no more receivers should you have a serious failure. If you search around, you'll find an article of a new Springfield Garand that had a catastropic failure. I just read a few days ago that Springfield could not replace it for him, but would credit him towards an M1A.

skidooman603
February 10, 2009, 04:25 PM
Thanks for all the great info. Still no closer to a choice :confused:

30Cal
February 10, 2009, 04:39 PM
USGI; no question about it. Buy a service grade, and have it restocked and refinished if you want it to look new. It'll be better and still cheaper than the SA Inc one.

Why do you suppose SA Inc stopped making reproductions?

Tim R
February 10, 2009, 04:42 PM
skid....try this idea. If you can find a new Springfield Inc. M-1 (have stopped making them) good. They cost about the same as a HRA/Springfield Correct grades from the CMP. This are post war rifles.

I ordered a HRA Correct grade not so long ago. I recieved a rifle with low, low rounds through it, a LMR barrel and nice correct wood. I took it to a ole Navy gun plummer who said the rifle was worth $2500.00. Could be worth more. I would say it was a nice investment. Heck, I should order another one.

You are not going to do this with a New Springfield Inc rifle.

skidooman603
February 10, 2009, 04:46 PM
True TimR. Kind of a horse trader and always buy something that has potential to stay even or rise in value. any brand in particular from CMP? Grade to price I should expect? Thanks a TON!

Tim R
February 10, 2009, 05:23 PM
www.odcmp.com

Check rifle sales. I know I did alright with a H&R correct grade. I also bought a field grade Dane return while at Camp Perry in 07. Turns out this rifle was only about 3 parts from being WWII correct right down to an uncut op rod. I would suggest a guy always buy the best grade he can afford.

Yeah you do have to jump through some hoops for paper work, but once done you're good for 3 years.

Icopy1
February 10, 2009, 05:52 PM
USGI from CMP. No question about it. Mine was rebarreled in the 60s and put away until I bought it from the CMP. Shoots 1" at 200 yards with surplus ammo if I do my part. Best $520 I have ever spent.

BOPLEO
February 10, 2009, 06:09 PM
The springfield rifles are top notch 100% good rifles and they dont have the round count or abuse that the used USGI rifles do. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Tim R
February 10, 2009, 06:32 PM
The springfield rifles are top notch 100% good rifles and they dont have the round count or abuse that the used USGI rifles do. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

My HRA Correct grade has had a very few rounds through it. The LMR barrel, (best of the USGI's) cleaned right up. Bolt face showed no signs of wear, stock had few dings in it, blue is good and is correct for 1954 being 100% HRA. I would put it against any new Springfield Inc M-1 for value and target shooting. I was in the 10 ring on the 3rd shot on a reduced 100 yard target. I was shooting late Lake City ball which is not known for tack driving. I was thinking of using it for an up comming Korean War match which was won by a another HRA.

I decided to use my green M-1 which is in 308.

RT
February 10, 2009, 06:39 PM
CMP Garand- SA, six digit serial #, 1942 production
Own a piece of history!
http://i339.photobucket.com/albums/n443/thorm001/IMG_4114.jpg

30Cal
February 10, 2009, 06:52 PM
The springfield rifles are top notch 100% good rifles and they dont have the round count or abuse that the used USGI rifles do. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

100% good is a stretch. The reciever and barrel might not have the round count, but you can rest assured that most everything else came off a USGI rifle and was reparkerized.

Some field grades I got from the CMP. I put a new stock (unfinished--$75) on the left one.
http://webpages.charter.net/tyoberg/upload/CMP%20rifles%20Jul-Aug06/DSCN1306_edited.JPG

Abused Service Grade I picked out at the N. Store
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2356/1521329502_368cbf3863.jpg

CU74
February 10, 2009, 07:48 PM
The springfield rifles are top notch 100% good rifles and they dont have the round count or abuse that the used USGI rifles do. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

The CMP Special Grade Garands use refinished USGI receivers with brand new barrels. http://www.thecmp.org/m1garand.htm

herbie1
February 10, 2009, 08:09 PM
Springfield has discontinued the Garand, but you get a lifetime warranty if you buy one so take that into consideration.




Who honors the lifetime warranty?

Will the new SA honor the old SA products?

(unless you mean that the new SA will honor the new SA Garands warranty?)

regarding Springfield Armory, as per Wikipedia:



In 1968, in a controversial economic measure, the Defense Department closed the installation. For almost two centuries the hilltop overlooking the Connecticut River had been an important place for the development and manufacture of arms for the American soldier. The facility evolved from a place where skilled craftsmen built, piece by piece, one musket at a time, into a center pioneering mass-production techniques, and finally into an institute famous for its research and development.

The site is now a museum run by the National Park Service, as the Springfield Armory National Historic Site. Some of the Armory buildings house Springfield Technical Community College (STCC).

In 1974, the Springfield Armory name was used by Robert Reese, who formed a new company to manufacture semi-automatic versions of the M14 rifle. This company, now owned and run by Reese's sons, manufactures a wide array of firearms under the Springfield Armory name. However, this company is not located near the former armory site and has no connection with the original National Arsenal. It is now located in Geneseo, Illinois. Springfield Inc.'s motto "The Oldest Name In American Firearms" while technically true, is misleading since the company has no connection whatsoever with the original Springfield Armory in Springfield Massachusetts.

BeCoole
February 10, 2009, 10:16 PM
This really is a no-brainer.

The M1 is the last US service rifle that you will ever be allowed to own without special paperwork that was actually used by USGIs.

lipadj46
February 10, 2009, 11:02 PM
Why do you suppose SA Inc stopped making reproductions?

They ran out of their supply of USGI parts. Also they probably found it hard to compete with the CMP and there was really no other big manufacturers making M14 clones so they decided to concentrate on that.

Who honors the lifetime warranty?

Why don't you Wikki Springfield Armory Inc? It seems pretty obvious that SAI will warranty SAI rifles like their version of the Garand. The OP asked about "new" M1s which we all took to mean ones made my SAI on their own receivers but with USGI parts and that have lifetime warranties much like their M1A rifles.

RockyMtnTactical
February 11, 2009, 01:42 AM
USGI is the way to go.

Ignition Override
February 11, 2009, 03:45 AM
GregM:
Was it the M-1 which was destroyed when the owner bought somebody else's reloaded ammo? I saw the photo of the gun fragments.

Budzboy
February 11, 2009, 06:50 AM
Cast receiver vs. forged - no brainer

Sundance
February 11, 2009, 07:48 AM
Funny how in the Browning High Power it is just the opposite. The newer cast frames are stronger than the older forger ones. Users are cautioned not to use 9mm+P in the old forged ones, but the new cast ones are OK for 9mm+P and even offered in .40 S&W.

I am pretty sure my cast frame M1As and my cast frame M1 Garand and my cast frame BHPs will outlast my kids.

Recently on the M14 forum someone started a post on a bolt failure in a SA M1A Socom 16 complete with pics. Everybody jumped on the anti cast bandwagon until someone pointed out that the bolt in that gun was forged and not cast. Oooops. Kind of blew that cast sucks and forged is invincible argument out of the water.

skidooman603
February 11, 2009, 08:08 AM
Wow so much great info! I just became re-affiliated with a CMP approved club. Now I have to decide if I want to go that route and refinish or buy one from someone like the "GarandGuy" who has already redone the rifle. Call me a freak but I like my rifles to be in pristine condition. :D RT your Garand is SWEET! One just like that I could deal with!

BeCoole
February 11, 2009, 09:19 AM
I like the Service Grade rifles myself. Nice enough to win a casual match, but I don't feel like I'm destroying a rarity shooting it.

If I really wanted to spend some money and make a flat-out match winner, I'd buy a Rack Grade and have it rebuilt by Clint Fowler.

bufordtjustice
February 11, 2009, 10:41 AM
If you like your rifles in pristine condition (like I do) check out miltech in California. I got a 1943 winchester with all win. parts a few years ago. Their fit and finish are first rate. I think my next one will be a CMP correct grade though. Guys are getting some great rifles from them right now.

Scorch
February 11, 2009, 01:01 PM
New reproduction Garand vs WW2 original?Just to throw a wrench in the gears of reasoning here, there are no reproductions, only rebuilt military receivers. The "new" SA M1s are refurbished military receivers from foreign countries, built on tooling provided by the US governemnt to NATO member countries during the 1950s and 60s. They are brought in, stripped, receivers are rollmarked with SA info, then rebarreled and restocked, and out the door. So, you want a piece of war memorabilia, get a CMP rifle. You want a rifle that has never fired a shot in anger or self-defense? Get a SA. The SAs look nicer, that's all. Apples to apples, they are essentially the same thing.

Beretta16
February 11, 2009, 01:15 PM
A correct or collectors grade will be in almost new condition, there have been quite a few on the CMP forum posted that appear to have never been fired. The new SA inc. Garands have cast recievers instead of forged like the USGI ones.

30Cal
February 11, 2009, 02:50 PM
Just to throw a wrench in the gears of reasoning here, there are no reproductions, only rebuilt military receivers. The "new" SA M1s are refurbished military receivers from foreign countries, built on tooling provided by the US governemnt to NATO member countries during the 1950s and 60s. They are brought in, stripped, receivers are rollmarked with SA info, then rebarreled and restocked, and out the door.

Everything I've ever read says that SA Inc used surplus Italian receivers for a short time waaaay back in the 70's and since then, has contracted with one or more firms to produce new receivers. The Lithgow marked SA Inc receivers I've seen was less than impressive in fit/finish.

skidooman603
February 11, 2009, 10:09 PM
Leaning towards getting the least expensive CMP I can get then sending it out to some place like "GarandGuy" and having it refurbished. Smart?:confused:

johnwilliamson062
February 11, 2009, 10:47 PM
Leaning towards getting the... ...CMP I can get... ...Smart?
Extremely. I applaud the way you cut through all these posts and got to the fact of the matter.
I bought one of the $600 CMP Garands. Most rifle I have got for my money yet. Of course I do think my $250 Cherry's imports SKS is second, so maybe I am crazy. It is the best looking SKS I have seen.

Good luck.

skidooman603
February 12, 2009, 05:02 AM
Thanks John62. The more I read and watch utube videos ect, the more I want the original. Cool history. I'm only about 5 or 6 hours from Camp Perry, maybe when the confounded snow finally leaves I will load up the son and go pick one. Wonder? Do they let you do that? I see CMP is in same town.

lipadj46
February 12, 2009, 09:59 AM
Just to throw a wrench in the gears of reasoning here, there are no reproductions, only rebuilt military receivers. The "new" SA M1s are refurbished military receivers from foreign countries, built on tooling provided by the US governemnt to NATO member countries during the 1950s and 60s. They are brought in, stripped, receivers are rollmarked with SA info, then rebarreled and restocked, and out the door. So, you want a piece of war memorabilia, get a CMP rifle. You want a rifle that has never fired a shot in anger or self-defense? Get a SA. The SAs look nicer, that's all. Apples to apples, they are essentially the same thing.

That was a long time ago for a short time. Most if not all SAI garands that you will see for sale these days are built on a cast receiver.

amd6547
February 12, 2009, 10:18 AM
CMP North Store is on the grounds of Camp Perry, and you can go there to pick out your rifle. That's what I did when I bought my M1 carbine. They have racks of rifles on the floor for you to pick through and examine. The only hard part if deciding which one to get!
Check the CMP website for store hours, and get there early.

30Cal
February 12, 2009, 12:50 PM
Do they let you do that? I see CMP is in same town.

Yep. They're very helpful too; just tell them what you're looking for.

http://www.odcmp.com/StoreOH.htm

rugernut
February 12, 2009, 08:48 PM
i gotta a SPECIAL from CMP and as far as im concerned, it new. do not shoot store bought ammo out of it. shoot mil-surplus. and its 1/3 the price of new stuff

nate45
February 12, 2009, 09:15 PM
Those new SA ones look nice. I would like one of the Fulton Armory (http://www.fulton-armory.com/MRifles.htm) ones, but they are mucho expensive.

http://www.fulton-armory.com/GarandRifle-after-cropped-600.jpg
Fulton Armory M1 Service Rifle

I like mine, it is an SA that was made in 4/44. I put a chrome lined .308 barrel on it and all the parts are like new. I once read an article that said the 'all original' M1 is almost non existent, because constant use in training and battle necessitate the replacement of parts. Most WW2 era models have probably had many of the parts replaced, maybe multiple times. Its possible to gather together all the correct parts and restore one to like original condition, but there are very,very few M1s that actually have all original factory parts.

http://www.TheFiringLine.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=42409&d=1234490783
My SA M1 that was made in 4/44, pictured with my 1943 Smith-Corona 03A3, original WW2 PAL Blade & Tool 10' M1 bayonet and Colt WWI Reproduction from the first run.


42409

Beretta16
February 12, 2009, 10:11 PM
Note that the HRA's currently being turned out by the CMP are in extremely good condition. You have significantly better chances of getting a shooter by going with an HRA service grade over the Springfield and HRA's are regarded to have the finest fit and finishes of the 4 original manufacturers of Garands.

Check out the CMP forums and you will pick up a lot of useful information there.

skidooman603
February 15, 2009, 08:54 AM
Sweet pieces Nate 45

kraigwy
February 15, 2009, 12:21 PM
I like the Service Grade rifles myself. Nice enough to win a casual match, but I don't feel like I'm destroying a rarity shooting it.

Sir: You cant destroy a M1 buy shooting it. I got my 1943 ventage M1 from CMP (then DCM) in '82. You'd be supprised the number of rounds I put through it, back then I was running Sniper Schools for the National Guard using M1C/Ds. I shot tons of ammo through my gun and it still shoots (actually shot a 1000 yard match with it last year).

With proper care, you can shoot them forever.

http://photos.imageevent.com/kraigwy/posting/websize/DCM%20M1.jpg

Chris_B
February 15, 2009, 07:50 PM
Skidooman wrote:

"Looking at buying a M1A Garand. Prices look similar new Springfield repo vs WW2 vintage. Which is the way to go?"

Hi there :)

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this; the M1A is not a Garand. It's essentially the civilian model M14, and of course there were no M1As of WWII vintage

I also recommend the CMP as many have mentioned. It is very surprising to me that anyone might post the CMP sells some sort of washed up or worn out rifle; their grading criteria is posted right on their site, and believe me, they stand behind what they sell. If there is a problem, they fix it. I got a 600 dollar M1 from them a while ago, ~2007. The bullet guide had a problem. I called them, they shipped me a replacement. No charge, no argument. I don;t know if the manufacturers of rebuilt receivers such as Springfield Armory will do that, but I know for a fact the CMP will do that.

It's been mentioned that Springfield Armory sells a 'pretty gun'. That is commendable and desirable.

Here is my 600 dollar Service Grade M1 from the CMP after I stripped the original USGI wood on the stock (yes, something of a sacrilege to many. If I had taken 'before' pics you would know why I went this route). It is a Springfield, made in 1944. Barrel is a Springfield, dated 1946. Bore looks brand new. I will not shoot this barrel out in my lifetime

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/M1three.jpg

Here is how the magazine looked when I got it. I had not cleaned any of the metal yet

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/m1seven.jpg

I spent some time refinishing the wood. I didn't want to replace it as it was USGI walnut. I found good handguards locally, 15 dollars for one, 25 for the other

Here is what it looks like now, although I use an M1907 type sling now and I swapped my HRA trigger group with a guy I know for an SA unit. Of course, the CMP only sold me the rifle

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/m1bayo.jpg

skidooman603
February 19, 2009, 05:26 AM
Beautiful gun ChrisB! I would be more than pleased with one just like it!

Beretta16
February 19, 2009, 01:29 PM
Chris, Springfield Armory Inc. started remaking Garands a few years ago. They aren't anymore, but you can still pick them up for $1,000.

skidooman603
February 19, 2009, 02:24 PM
Port Clinton Here I come!

Chris_B
February 19, 2009, 06:07 PM
Chris, Springfield Armory Inc. started remaking Garands a few years ago. They aren't anymore, but you can still pick them up for $1,000.

That's good to know, although I'm not interested in SA inc M1s, and I put a whopping 65 dollars into my Service Grade M1 that cost 600 bucks to produce what you see in the photos. I estimate my rifle's value at 900 dollars right now... the CMP does offer a good rifle. A 600 dollar CMP rifle is not the same rifle you see at gunshows for 600 bucks. Some folks think that if the CMP sells for 600, it's got to be junk, because they have seen 600 dollar rifles at show.

For 1,000 dollars....I'd be getting a CMP Correct grade. SA inc cannot duplicate things like original cartouches- nobody can. All anyone can do now is reproduce them. Criterion makes excellent barrels but nobody can make a new, correct dated original barrel in any condition

" [CMP] Correct Grade Rifles are similar to the Service Grade (above), but will show less wear and use. Correct Grade rifles will have all correct parts for the date of manufacture with 80% or better overall original metal finish. The stock and handguards will be of walnut and correct for the rifle but will have some dings, dents, scratches and marring of the wood finish. Stocks will have the appropriate original inspector's cartouche. The rifle bore will be very good with no significant defects and with a throat erosion of less than 4 and a muzzle wear of 2 or less. Very good to excellent condition. Limited quantities are occasionally available. Prices start at $950."

I'm not telling anyone SA inc is bad or not a place to buy an M1. I just don't want a modern rebuilt rifle from a place that by definition does not produce USGI rebuilds, even if it were a fact that SA inc does it 'better'. SA inc owns the name but they are not the real armory. The real armory closed in 1968

I would however buy an M1A SOCOM from SA inc, in a heartbeat :)

Chris_B
February 19, 2009, 06:12 PM
Beautiful gun ChrisB! I would be more than pleased with one just like it!

Thank you. :) I get a lot of satisfaction from it because of all the work I did on the wood

M1s that nice or better are out there, no doubt, no matter who you buy from. prices aren't going down for them but they aren't prohibitive yet. I'm struggling with an M1 carbine purchase because I see that soon the prices for them- and the M1s- could be prohibitive

On one hand I don't really have the money- I bought a 22 pistol a few weeks ago. On the other, I may not have a chance to buy an M1 Carbine again.

Maybe I'll sell my Rickenbacker 4001, I haven't been in a band in ten years, that would pay for a carbine...

skidooman603
February 20, 2009, 11:24 AM
I have been saving all winter! Eating nothing but venison (not a big sacrifice :D) and watchin every dime for this purchase!

Limeyfellow
February 20, 2009, 12:49 PM
I personally would go with the old USGI rifle with the markings over a new rifle.

The new ones do have cast receivers and thats a bit of a no no in my book considering the forged receiver is much stronger.

We also have to realise that the USGI rifles have probably been rebuilt a dozen time each and likely to contain parts that originally were in dozens of other rifles over the decades. If it been rebuilt decently you have a rather good rifle.

If you have access to the CMP then that is easily the best way to go. I am not a citizen though so don't qualify. :(

skidooman603
February 24, 2009, 10:30 AM
Every Post I read of Guys goin to the CMP store I'm green with envy.

30Cal
February 24, 2009, 05:11 PM
We also have to realise that the USGI rifles have probably been rebuilt a dozen time each and likely to contain parts that originally were in dozens of other rifles over the decades. If it been rebuilt decently you have a rather good rifle.


There have been two major M1 rebuild programs. I doubt very much that there's been a single M1 out of 6mil that has been rebuilt a dozen times.

Beretta16
February 24, 2009, 05:19 PM
I'm not telling anyone SA inc is bad or not a place to buy an M1. I just don't want a modern rebuilt rifle from a place that by definition does not produce USGI rebuilds, even if it were a fact that SA inc does it 'better'. SA inc owns the name but they are not the real armory. The real armory closed in 1968

I would however buy an M1A SOCOM from SA inc, in a heartbeat

Great minds think alike :D

I have a CMP service grade HRA and just bought a SOCOM 16 from SAI. Putting the SOCOM in a USGI wood stock and slotted handguard, should look pretty cool.

It should be noted that the SAI reproductions also have cast recievers unlike the forged of the USGI from CMP. CMP rifles will always go up in value, and will last lifetimes if properly cared for.

latisimusd
February 24, 2009, 05:31 PM
skidooman603,
Be very careful of the CMP - they have too much "VERY" cool stuff.
It's like the old LAY's potato chip commercial bet ya can't eat (own) just one:eek:
Here's my tribe:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v103/ARfun/Mil-surprifles001.jpg
Top to bottom
44 Springfield Garand
53 HRA Garand
43 Remington 1903A3

sundance43.5
February 24, 2009, 07:37 PM
A friend and I are driving to NYC in a week and the route conveniently takes us 6 miles away from the OH CMP store!!!

Are there any special requirements when buying from the store?

30Cal
February 25, 2009, 12:07 AM
Are there any special requirements when buying from the store?

Same as if you were to place an order via mail, except you don't need a notary.

skidooman603
February 25, 2009, 05:42 AM
OK latis that is cruel and unusual punishment. How bout I move in next door and come borrow stuff from time to time? GREAT lookin rifles :D

latisimusd
February 25, 2009, 06:17 PM
skidooman603,
Thanks for the kind words!
I did not buy these all at one time; it was over a period of years - similar to what your doing. I'm not wealthy just weak when I go to the CMP store. ;)
Hey if you lived close, we'd definitely run a few rounds through em.
The guys at the CMP will guide you well!!!