Considering a Taurus Judge

[Piper Cub]

Hello. This is only my 2nd post. I have been brought up with guns on our ranch but never owned one until last week when I bought an AK 47. When I get paid I am considering putting a used stainless Taurus Judge 3" barrel on lay a way. They are only asking $400. I am a VFR pilot and think the 410/45LC combination would be a good gun to carry in the plane. Good for snakes that are both slithering and walking. Kinda one gun for everything.
What does everyone think? (I can't get the search to work so if thius has been asked before please excuse me) Thanks

[Shadi Khalil]

Welcome Piper club. I dont know anything besides what I read and I dont like to give other peoples opinions as advice. So, I've taken the liberty of running a search for you...Heres a little lite reading, enjoy.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/search.php?searchid=2862635

[Kreyzhorse]

There are lots of threads on the Judge. Hit or miss quality is the biggest issue. Good luck.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=330456&highlight=taurus+judge

[The Great Mahoo]

I have a Judge, as well as several other types of hanguns. I do like my Judge, but I don't think it serves well as a cover-all type firearm.

Heres some of the highlights from many discussions:

Its too big to be comfortably concealed, therefore less than ideal for personal protection
Its not any better then other 45 colt revolvers (when firing such loads) but is adequate
410 shotshells are inadequate for personal defense out of any gun, especially a short barrel pistol
It is terriffic for snakes, but snake-shot loads can be had for most any handgun
Its a lot of fun to toss clays and shoot them with the Judge
Can be effective as a home-defense gun
Taurus QC is sketchy at best. Good guns are out there, but Taurus is known for letting a lot of lemons hit the shelves.
Taurus has a lifetime warrenty, but their customer service is slow (not uncommon for month+ waits for service)


Ultimately, the Judge is a fairly good gun, but does nothing that any other gun cannot do just as well. Its big, heavy, and not great at anything. Having said that, I think it is still a fun gun, and I don't plan on selling mine in the near future. I carry mine while hiking/riding (secured to my pack, not my person) and have total faith in it. Its fun to shoot, but I would not opt for it over most other guns, most of the time.

[Shadi Khalil]

you might also want to read this http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm before you buy anything.

[carguychris]

Before you take this idea any further, check prices and local availability of .45 Colt (aka .45 Long Colt) ammo. It is not cheap, particularly the name-brand self-defense loadings. .45 Colt was largely a specialty item before the Judge came out, and although the increased demand may cause prices to drop, I wouldn't count on it happening soon. The recent run on ammo gives the manufacturers no incentive to lower their prices. :rolleyes: Most people who seriously shoot .45 Colt handload for it, but I'm not sure you want to go that far.

Honestly, if I were going to buy a big-bore revolver for protection out in the boonies, I'd buy a traditional single-action Ruger or double-action Smith & Wesson in .44 Magnum. The cartridge will do almost anything the .45 Colt will do, but ammo is cheaper and more widely available. The gun will cost more but it should hold its value better.

[NWPilgrim]

I don't see what the Judge can do any better in a survival situation than a .357 revolver, which would be much smaller and lighter for carrying. Small game like squirrels or birds at close range is the only situation I can see the .410 in a short barrel would be useful.

I would rather pack a 4" .357 with 158gr LSWC and snake shot loads, and a .22 pistol for small game. Snake shot loads in even .22 cartridges are proven very effective on snakes; you don't need a shotgun shell for that. You could pack a lot more rounds of .357 and .22 then you could for the same weight and size in .410 and .45 LC.

[azredhawk44]

Don't.

Redhawk, Blackhawk, S&W 625 or S&W 629 are much better choices.

None of us would choose a .410 shotgun for personal defense, yet suddenly people see a slick ad campaign in NRA rags and think it's good in a short barreled handgun.:rolleyes: A .410 slug is only barely as powerful as a .357 magnum cartridge. Just gets worse when you get into buckshot or smaller projectiles.

A 3" chamber is detrimental to accuracy and effectiveness for a 1.5" cartridge, so shooting .45 Colt from it will be worse than from a true .45 revolver.

if you're really worried about snakes, you have two excellent options with quality sixguns:
1. Learn to shoot. A hundred rounds spent shooting from the hip at ground targets such as water bottles, sticks and such will teach you to hit a snake just fine with a real honest to God bullet.
2. Get snakeshot capsules. They make 'em in .44 and .45 cartridges.

[carguychris]

You could pack a lot more rounds of .357 and .22 then you could for the same weight and size in .410 and .45 LC.
Yup, and if your username is accurate, every ounce counts in that Cub, unless your goal is to add enough ballast to solo from the front seat. But I kinda doubt that. ;)

[Pyzon]

Piper Cub-

My advice is find somebody to talk to that has at least shot one-Like me, or that owns one-Like me.

My opinion is only based on my experience so here goes, and if you don't agree I'll refund the 2 cents it's worth !

This model comes with a bit of history of hit or miss quality, especially early in the run, like many other models and brands of handguns, including the pricey ones. Maybe you can shoot this one before you lay it away ?

Forget slugs, not only in this but in any firearm configuration including .410 long guns.

For snakes and other small vermin including something for the pot in a survival situation, it is a perfectly adequate revolver, especially inside of 5 yards +/-, which may sound close but consider that 5 yards amounts to 15 feet, further than across most rooms inside our homes. If you're shooting #4 shotshells (and since you are considering a used Judge it is probably an earlier one with the 2.5" cylinder) that will be somewhere around 60-70 pellets spread across a 24" or so circle at that range. Not exactly dense but better than a single bullet at that range none the less, no matter what caliber we're talking about. Downsize to 2.5" with #6 shot and that jumps to around 110-115 pellets, a likely significant increase in pattern density.

Now for the 2 legged snakes among us, a serious hurting is coming to the face of somebody at a similar range of 5 yards with either load. Lethal ? Maybe not, but very ugly comes to mind.

Where I think this revolver comes alive though (in terms of home defense) is when you have the ability to handload some more hefty #2 or BB shot. The lighter stuff (4's and 6's) is not very potent when penetrating heavy clothing, but the #2 shot pellet count is going to be 40-45 and in the case of BB around 25, for mcuh higher energy per pellet, and a still pretty well covered pattern at short range. In addition, you can buy off the shelf 000 buckshot in 2.5" holding 3 really nasty .36"/9.14mm balls that should stay within a foot of one another traveling across that typical room. OUCH is an understatement. Also, in my home, the bedroom door is towards the other bedrooms, and I'm concerned about unintended injury to family when a heavy bullet leaves the immediate area.

And yet we haven't even touched on the reknown .45 Colt cartridge, the gun that "tamed the West" or whatever the old Cowboys said 150 years ago or so.

Nope, I agree it is not up with a hopped up .44 Mag, but consider Blazers with the 250 gr Gold Dot pill and that is some serious bad mojo anyplace you can put it, and my Judge can keep it plenty tight at 25 yards even double action.

Lastly, I agree with the folks that load the first 2 or 3 chambers with shot and the last 3 or 2 with .45 Colt, just in case you happen to wake up to a real bad dream.

I have S&W's, Pythons, Glocks and others, that although I like them all, can't do all that.

But, I think Taurus deserves credit for making something that fits a need, the proof of which is found in the lack of The Judge to be found on the shelves in most places, especially the Magnum 3" chamber models.

Now go find one and shoot it if you can. You'll have a smile on your face too I'll bet.

Then get started on that Instrument rating, Piper Cub.

Pyzon

[Delaware_Dan]

I would reconsider.

Welcome th TFL.

[shortwave]

Welcome Piper! I too have a Judge and agree with Pyzon`s assessment. Its hardly the ultimate man-stopper in all situations but IMO will get the job done in my house till I(wife) can get to shotgun. Its definately not a long range weapon with anything you shoot out of it. It wasn`t designed to be. You`ll hear alot of info on this topic and I would suggest taking info from those that actually own one.

[tblt44]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO:eek:

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Get a quality 357 revolver of some sort and a box of snake shot.

Much more utility.

[liviussteven]

who in the world... especially someone who knows a little about guns... would pic a 410 as a home defense weapon... if you want to shoot snakes get a shot gun or use pellet loads for your pistol... but for gods sake forget the 410 as home defense. the judge is a advertisement great.. but in the real world it is useless. get a real gun!
oh.... and i'm not slamming it because its taurus... i have a taurus 1911 and love it....!

[kraigwy]

I'm not gonna tell you what I read. I will tell you what I know. My wife wanted a judge, I first thought it was a gimic, but since I like to eat, I bought it for her.

She mainly wanted it for horse back riding since we have more then our share of ratlers.

Since, she has shot ratlers with the 410s. Shoot last fall I shot one under our porch. She use to carry her PPK but sence has been carrying her judge to work. She does books for a bar, and makes night deposits about 2-3AM. Its dark, and she feels more comfortable with the 410s then ther PPK under poor light conditions.

She likes it, the 410 (#4 shot) dosnt have too much recoil. She also likes playing with the 45, I dont load 45LCs heavy but thats ok, she dont like recoil.

I really doubt you'll get her's away from her. I'm not saying the Judge is the best SD gun out there, (I carry a 647) but for my wife's use its perfect.

No way you'll convince her that a face full of #4 shot wont discourage bad behavier.

I do wonder if all the people that dont like the Judge have ever played with one.

[thinkingman]

I like the idea you have there.
I don't know anybody who wants a facefull of .410 shot....not a BG, not a pitbull, not a rattlesnake....nobody.
The point of a SD firearm is to limit/diminish the targets ability and will to make war.
I have posted the idea of a bear gun being a 12guage with birdshot in the first two rounds and slugs behind, because a bear can't attack/injure what it can't see, and I guarantee I have a better chance of getting out with my skin if the attacker can't see it's target.
Others have this idea that you bang/flop your target, and that doesn't happen.
Pyzon has it right.

[Opinated]

I do not shoot anything very often anymore. But I just bought a new Judge, the novelty attracted me. Probably cannot offer any meaningful comment beyond those above and at the links already offered. My first 45 Colt caliber firearm. Seems mild compared to my favorite .357 magnum. My Judge has the 3" cylinder length, 3" barrel length, blue steel frame. I suspect that the 45 Colt cartridge will do better in the shorter 2 1/2" cylinder as it has far to travel in the 3" from the cartridge casing to the barrel. 3" .410 shells are hard to find here, all ammo is scarce. I suspect that the 2 1/2" shells suffer performance loss in the longer cylinder due to the distance from the shell to the barrel. A 2 1/2" #8 shot shell at 30' does little damage to an empty gallon antifreeze jug, only a few hits, only two shot penetrated both sides of the jug. The extractor travel is surprisingly short and I had to pull the spent casings out with my fingers. Shooting a variety of lengths probably would require frequent cylinder cleaning. I found only 4 boxes of 000 buckshot in 3" in all my searches- at $8.00 per box of 5! Expensive. Have not shot any of those. But for home defense, that would be my choice for this revolver. Another caution! The Remington 2 1/2" .410 shells sold at Dick's are now only 20 per box and that is in fine print! I found some 3" #4 shot Winchester 25 per box at Sports Authority, a better buy. Walmart ammo shelves are empty, sold out. Mail order ammo suppliers are mostly out of .410 ammo. And several users report that the metal casing (Russian?) .410 shells will not chamber in the Judge, too tight. Except for using 3" shells, the shorter cylinder might be the better choice. And sellers are asking premium prices due to the present high demand for this revolver. Hope this helps you make your own decision. Do I regret my purchase? No. Would I buy knowing what I know now? Probably not.

[Opinated]

More on the Judge. I did find one store with inventory of 15 rounds of .410 slugs in 2 1/2". With no testing of any kind on my part, I did not buy these as I believe that the .410 slug, even with the plastic sabot, fits loosely in the 45 caliber bore and thus has very low muzzle velocity. Accuracy would not be good, either. Plus the .410 slugs costs more per round than does the 45 Colt cartridge.
But I would welcome thoughts that might differ on this subject.
And the 45 Colt round costs about twice that of the 45ACP at this time. So my Judge will not get lots of use for practice.

[The Great Mahoo]

The two biggest problems I see with the Judge for those not worried about supreme accuracy, but rather just looking for a SD gun are as follows:

Its size. Its just too big to normally carry compared to other guns. If you just want it for around the home, to have in a car, or in a pack, its fine, but otherwise find something smaller.

Its expensive to shoot. .410 shells are very expensive. I think I paid $16 for my last box of bird shot to pop clays with. I don't remember if it was 20 or 25 rounds in that box, but either way, thats too much for my liking. 45colt isn't much better in price. Its about $33 a box/50 now, and that is for cowboy-loads, not anything special.

Otherwise, the gun is more or less fine. I can shoot mine into decent groups at 20 yards with .45's. It handles well, balances ok. I've never had a light-strike misfire nor any problems with the action.

And, since Opinated brought it up, I find the extractor to be terrible. It routinely traps the 45 cases UNDER it if you push the extractor all the way; there is too much room and the casings wobble below the extractor star, making it a real hag to get out. Most .410's will not be pushed clear of the cylinder. Several .410 shells have been stuck, due to expansion, in the cylinder that I couldn't budge htem with the extractor, having to push them out with a pen from the front of the cylinder. I've found the best way to work it is a hard yet short smack on the extractor to bump the cases (shells or colts) enough to pull them with my fingers.

I do like my Judge. Its a 2.5" chamber, 4" (yes 4", not 3") barrel, stainless model. Am I anxious to get rid of it? Not at all.

[GunRus]

I don't know anybody who wants a facefull of .410 shot....not a BG, not a pitbull, not a rattlesnake....nobody.
The point of a SD firearm is to limit/diminish the targets ability and will to make war.

Exactly, but the problem is that the Judge with 410 won't limit the target's ability enough. Think of of it this way. You're only justified in pointing that Judge at someone if your life is in danger. If someone's pointing a gun at you with his finger on the trigger, you want that guy completely neutralized ASAP, you don't want him to be able to squeeze off even one round, as that round may be the one that kills you or one of your loved ones. Blinding the guy with buckshot ain't going to prevent him from pulling that trigger a couple of times. Meet deadly force with *overwhelming* deadly force.

[Pyzon]

I think it is important to remember in the rightfully called worst case scenario
of having to act in defense in your home (or any close quarters combat situation) how infrequently a single or even multiple gunshot actually connects with the intended target, no matter which side of the fence you're fighting from.

Yep, of course a .410 shotshell is far from the best defensive round, as is a .22 cal, .25, .32, whatever have you, including a .50 BMG if it misses.

I'll take a dozen (or 100) #6 pellets that finds the face or chest of that dirtball at the bedroom door if that is the alternative to the maybe 75% or higher chance of that more desireable .357, .44 mag, or whatever bullet flying past the target and heading downrange towards my family or neighbor.

I hope to never fire in defense again, because when $hitless scared I have had a tough time doing it well.

Keep it coming friends, I'm enjoying this debate.

Pyzon

[Elvishead]

They are neat guns.

As long as you understand the limitations of the gun, is does serve a purpose.

[Smallcal]

My first post, Looks like a great place ya have here!

I am a small caliber shooter mostly 17 & 20 caliber wildcats and enjoy reloading very much. I have 6 kids that keep me very busy!

I have a CCP and don’t carry much but have been trying to learn what I need. A week ago at a gunshow I got excited about the Judge and was planning on a purchase of the 2 1/2" hammerless light weight model. I was thinking about loading it up with copper-coated #4 that I have on hand. It would be more for home protection, maybe having it in a vehicle too?? It was kind of a novelty thing but at the time I felt it had a good purpose as in using it in a home.

From what I am learning I may have been wrong as it looks like the 410 is a poor choice for SD in the majority of the opinions I have read doing a google search on this topic. Being a bird hunter I have seen a difference in using copper coated lead shot but now talking through clothing (maybe a coat).

Has anyone seen any reviews with copper coated lead or is this just wishful thinking?