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View Full Version : condition one concealed carry


Derekadavis
February 4, 2009, 02:51 PM
is it safe to carry a taurus 917 in condtion one? it has a frame mounted safety and i just do not feel that safe. i carry in condition 2 W/ safety on. what are the advantages and disadvantages?

mnw42
February 4, 2009, 02:59 PM
I carry mt 1911 C&L. It is the fastest for me.

oldkim
February 4, 2009, 03:19 PM
Derek,

Your Taurus is not a SA only firearm like a 1911 and designed to be carried cocked and locked.

It's a semi (DA/SA).

I would not recommend you carry it with the hammer back. You're just asking for trouble you don't need. Keep the hammer down and the gun is ready to go - just pull the trigger and your off.

Hkmp5sd
February 4, 2009, 04:24 PM
It is safe to carry your gun with a round chambered and the safety off. Being DA/SA, you just draw and pull the trigger. As previously stated, it is not designed to be carried with the hammer cocked.

Keltyke
February 4, 2009, 04:54 PM
I carry a Steyr S40, a striker fired DAO with a trigger safety and a frame-mounted trigger finger safety. I carry a full mag with one in the chamber and the frame-mounted trigger finger safety on.

NavyLT
February 4, 2009, 05:11 PM
I could not answer the poll question because for me, it depends:

SAO first shot pistol such as Taurus PT145 or a 1911 would be cocked and locked with safety on.

DA first shot pistol such as a decocked PT92, Beretta 92FS, Ruger P345 and your 917 would be hammer down, safety off.

Always with a round chambered + full magazine.

oldkim
February 4, 2009, 05:13 PM
Yes, you can safely carry almost all modern DA/SA semi auto's with a loaded round in the chamber and the hammer down so long as your holster covers the trigger.

Glock doesn't have a safety so that's a mute point. The only real design that is made specifically are the SA only guns like the 1911 to be carried cocked and locked with the safety on, of course.

If you do feel safer to have the chamber unloaded but carry the mag fully loaded that's fine. You just have to rack the slide when the need arises. Yes, for the die hards out there it's a waste of time but if this makes you feel more comfortable and you carry more then so be it.

Remember never let your guard down with a gun - just that one time is all it takes. Never say "I'm the only one in this room qualified to handle this gun.... Boom!" So, that's what happened to the DEA agent when he was teaching a classroom on gun safety.

Hkmp5sd
February 4, 2009, 05:16 PM
So, that's what happened to the DEA agent when he was teaching a classroom on gun safety.


He was right. Anyone with lesser qualifications would have missed his leg and hit one of the students.

Creature
February 4, 2009, 05:35 PM
Depends on the pistol I am carrying and the action of that pistol.

My 1911 is Condition 1, cocked and safety on.
My Sig is Condition 1 as well, chambered but the hammer is down...because it is a DA pistol, there is no safety.
My S&W snubby is carried fully loaded and hammer down...its a DA as well.

The Great Mahoo
February 5, 2009, 10:32 AM
All of the guns I carry are DA, so its always chambered with hammer down.

Wagonman
February 5, 2009, 12:26 PM
WOW, my Sergeant and I were just talking about this last night. He had just bought a Sig 239 and took it to the range. He reholstered and went about his errands. While he was at the barbershop he couldn't remember if he had decocked prior to holstering. He went to the john, checked and hadn't decocked. We came to the determination as long as you are following the commandments of gun safety there is no more risk that carrying hammer down with the gun in a holster that covers the trigger.

I am not suggesting this mode of carry because that is not how the weapon was designed to be operated. I just don't think he was inherently unsafe.

SW1911CT
February 5, 2009, 04:33 PM
cond. 1

because it's a 1911 is there any other way?

dabigguns357
February 5, 2009, 07:01 PM
chambered but with no safety or decocker.Mine is dao:D

Hkmp5sd
February 5, 2009, 07:05 PM
We came to the determination as long as you are following the commandments of gun safety there is no more risk that carrying hammer down with the gun in a holster that covers the trigger.


Congratulations. You just sided with Glock owners on the eternal debate about lack of a manual safety. :)

Wagonman
February 6, 2009, 12:32 AM
Is that a good thing?

BlueTrain
February 6, 2009, 09:01 AM
I might point out that one of the advantages of cocked and locked that no other carry method offers (for automatics) is that it actually locks the slide in place. For other carry methods it is possible to cause the slide to retract (probably only partly) when reholstering the pistol in a snug fitting hoster, which I presume most are. One or two pistol models can be locked hammer down, curiously enough, though the same models cannot be safely carried with a round chambered that way.

All this only applies to pistols with a slide, of course.

NavyLT
February 6, 2009, 12:33 PM
I might point out that one of the advantages of cocked and locked that no other carry method offers (for automatics) is that it actually locks the slide in place.

I believe that varies amongst guns and would only apply on those guns when the safety is on.

jjohnson
February 6, 2009, 12:53 PM
could not answer the poll question because for me, it depends:

SAO first shot pistol such as Taurus PT145 or a 1911 would be cocked and locked with safety on.

+1 with Squid. How I carry depends entirely on WHAT I carry.

3 gun
February 6, 2009, 01:37 PM
While the 917 (an updated 92 according to Taurus) is made to allow C&L, being a DA semi at heart I don't know that I would do it. Taurus doesn't say a thing about a firing pin block (which the 92 has) or grip safety both of which are on a 1911. I carry my 1911 C&L. I carry my CZ hammer down on a loaded chamber even though I could leave it C&L and it does have a FP block. As a side note the manual on the Taurus web site lists C&L as a safe way to carry this pistol. Knowing what I know about this model I'd carry decocked with the safety on. If they kept the FP block I'd carry decocked safety off.

cjw3cma
February 6, 2009, 01:53 PM
Not carrying C&L means to me that you think you will have the necessary time to either cock the hammer or chamber a round after you have decided to draw your weapon.

If I have made the decision to draw I want my gun to be as ready to discharge as safely possible immediately - so Cocked & Locked seems to be the only acceptable condition.

Playboypenguin
February 6, 2009, 02:04 PM
I primarily carry revolvers or DAO semi-autos so it is most similar to chambered with hammer down. When I carry a DA/SA semi-auto it is chambered with the hammer decocked and down. When I carry my 1911 it is cocked and locked.

sixgunluv
February 10, 2009, 06:38 PM
This poll isn't really as simple as 1,2,3 due to the various type of firearms and safety mechanisms.
While i'm here i guess i'll have a rant, it just gets under my skin how some will suggest that if you don't carry a 1911 cocked and locked you should consider another firearm because you are unsafe...Baloney!!! I guess C&L is safer than nothing in the chamber??? If your are not confident in your knowledge and ability you are not safe with any weapon...period. Ok i'm done

My carry gun
Condition 2 with safety on/ or safety off depending on the atmosphere...... Star BM 9mm

I need a laugh...think i'll watch the DEA agent discharging his weapon for the weapons safety class...

BuckHammer
February 10, 2009, 07:46 PM
Does a Glock 21 with one in the pipe count as condition 1? If so, then I carry that way. I also selected condition 3 because I also carry with empty pipe, it just depends.

Milspec
February 11, 2009, 10:19 AM
I carry our Para LDA/PDA .45 with the chamber loaded and safety on. Most everything else is double action only with no safety...so they're carried round chambered. I guess if I carried my Taurus PT1911AR with laser & headlight I'd go Condition 1...just don't have a reason to... :)

Milspec

BlueTrain
February 11, 2009, 12:18 PM
Well, here's some more thoughts on the subject. And by the way, when I mentioned that cocked and locked actually locked the slide in place and immovable when reholstering, I did mean with the safety on.

There are safeties and there are safeties. Some safeties I do not trust when applied to a cocked automatic. Not because they don't necessarily work so much as they don't seem especially positive. I include CZ automatics in this and as I recall, Luger's didn't have an especially positive safety either, not that I expect many people are relying on a 1909 design today. In any case, they seem too easy to push off safe.

Many automatics which otherwise have a very positive safety lever also have very small levers, mostly older ones. The Colt pocket autos have very small, flat ones, perhaps by design. Even the older 1911s had small ones (small sights, too). I know that oversized safeties are in vogue in some circles but there is a trade off in ease of manipulation and ease of unintentional manipulation. But I've mostly always been happy with the way things came from the factory if I wanted it to begin with.

But if something can be carried safely cocked and locked doesn't mean it has to be carried that way, even though I have carried one (LW Commander) that way and felt perfectly happy. Likewise, it doesn't follow that cocked and locked is necessarily that much faster. I suspect that reaction time is most of the time it takes anyway but I could be wrong. I often am. But I have found that Colt automatics (and similiar automatics) to be the easiest things to charge, manipulating the slide. CZs, on the other hand, are difficult (for me). Sometimes refinished slides can be real slick and that doesn't help. Glocks are easy to work, too.

At the moment I rely on a Walther that only has a decocker so I avoid the issue but not intentionally. I almost bought a Colt with only a decocker but that's another story. But speaking of Walthers, if you had an automatic with a Walther style safety (PPK, M39, M59 etc), would you carry it safety on or safety off?

Recon7
February 11, 2009, 01:06 PM
I carry one in the tube, the "hammer" partially tensioned and all 3 safeties on:D

David Armstrong
February 11, 2009, 01:08 PM
Didn't vote because it depends on so many different factors. Depending on the gun and the situation, I might carry Condition 1, 2, or 3, whichever I feel is appropriate at that time.

Wagonman
February 11, 2009, 11:29 PM
I hope your muscle memory remembers what situation you are in. :D

David Armstrong
February 12, 2009, 10:47 AM
I've never found the muscle memory concept to conflict with any style or technique of presentation. One's presentation should not be based on muscle memory, it should be a reasoned response to a threat. My $.02.

Zulu343
February 12, 2009, 05:45 PM
I'm new to this decision.
I have a S&W 908 that i carry chambered, saftey on. Engaging the saftety decocks if it is cocked. Can not be carried cocked and locked. I'm comfortable with that, since 2 things have to happen - 1) long trigger pull 2) saftey released

Here's my dillema: i just got a cz82 (yesterday) which can not be hammer down and saftey on. The saftey (apparently) only works in the "cocked and locked" position. I'm not yet comfortable with that. I'm trying to figure out how to carry it, as "uncocked and locked" is not an option.
Any thoughts?

NavyLT
February 12, 2009, 07:41 PM
Here is from another blog regarding CZ82:
Not so hard to let the hammer down if you remember to release the trigger in the middle of the process...that puts the hammer stop into play...

So, grip the hammer tightly, squeeze the trigger, let the hammer come partly forward to where half-cock would be if it had one, release the trigger, then release the hammer and the mechanism prevents the hammer from getting within an eighth of the firing pin.

...practice with it empty of course

I would not hesitate at all to carry the CZ82 chamber loaded with the hammer down, safety off, ready for a DA pull of the trigger. It's the same way I carry a Taurus PT92 or Beretta 92FS or Ruger P345.

oldkim
February 13, 2009, 03:53 PM
Even for 1911 carriers it's somewhat tough to start off carrying cocked and locked, even though, the gun is designed to be carried this way.

When you first start off concealed carrying you have to be comfortable with the condition of your carry gun. So, like some have stated be it condition 1, 2, or 3

Practice how you carry and how to react to make your gun ready. So, if you have a loaded magazine but none in the chamber. You know when you draw you'll have to rack the slide to load a round in the chamber. Practice that way.

We all develop in stages. Some are comfortable starting off in condition one. Some are not. Where ever you are - be comfortable and train that way. You may find yourself later scaling up... that's good. But, if it's more comfortable for your state of mind to carry in condition 2 or 3 or whatever do so. Just be aware of the downside but if you train you can develop some fast deployment tactics.

One guy showed me an Israeli tactic to rack the slide upon engaging. He drew from concealed and as the gun was about belly button height he would grasp the slide and before it reached his chest the gun was racked and he was shooting. He did this very fast - faster than I could of just drawing my gun.

David Armstrong
February 13, 2009, 06:31 PM
One guy showed me an Israeli tactic to rack the slide upon engaging. He drew from concealed and as the gun was about belly button height he would grasp the slide and before it reached his chest the gun was racked and he was shooting. He did this very fast - faster than I could of just drawing my gun.
Most folks don't realize how little time, if any, is added to the presentation by racking the slide, especially if the shooter knows what he is doing.