PDA

View Full Version : No Guns Allowed here!


jfinstrom
February 3, 2009, 05:29 PM
I was thinking about starting up a blog or website to track both businesses that are anti-gun and businesses who are gun friendly. Does anyone know if such a thing already exists.

The point is to promote a gun friendly atmosphere and boycott the no guns allowed crowd. I realize it is a persons right to say I cant come in armed but at the same time it is my right to help them see the financial impact of such an error

Thanks

Brian Pfleuger
February 3, 2009, 05:33 PM
Interesting idea. How would you verify the claims of pro- or anti-gun?

jfinstrom
February 3, 2009, 05:43 PM
There are obviously some semantics to work out.

My thoughts would be submit a picture of their sign and basic contact information. We can call locations and ask what their policy is on customers coming in armed. Post can be tagged confirmed or unconfirmed. The picture thing would work well in blog format otherwise If I wrote an application it would take a day or so to do and all that could be worked in.. I would also provide a way to be removed if you decided to correct your errors....

The other concern would be moderation if such a thing took off. I would be happy to call and check on a light load but hundreds a day may become a challenge.

Mr Phil
February 3, 2009, 07:26 PM
PM me about your idea and contact info I am working on something that this would be perfect with

Thanks

Brian Pfleuger
February 3, 2009, 07:36 PM
I would also provide a way to be removed if you decided to correct your errors....

It would be interesting to advise the "anti" business' of their status and tell them that they can be removed by taking a different stance if they are so inclined. I wonder if any of them would care.

It's a pretty decent idea, IMO. Getting the word out would be trick.

Of course, in some places it's meaningless because the business has no right to ban CC in the first place.

Croz
February 3, 2009, 08:15 PM
Of course, in some places it's meaningless because the business has no right to ban CC in the first place

Doesn't really matter. Here in FLA, companies can't prevent you from carrying, but if they're putting up "NO GUNS" signs, I'd still prefer to take my business elsewhere.

Brian Pfleuger
February 3, 2009, 08:18 PM
I'd still prefer to take my business elsewhere.

True, as would I but in NY, at least my area, I have never seen a "no guns" sign in my entire life.

triggerhappy2006
February 3, 2009, 08:45 PM
I live in NY too, oddly enough neither have I. Then again most of my co-workers, classmates, etc are astounded that I am carrying a tiny boot knife. "Holy crap where did you get one of those?!?!?" I am pretty sure some places have rules against it but most assume nobody has weapons.

A++ Idea on the website though.

ds1973
February 3, 2009, 09:10 PM
I realize it is a persons right to say I cant come in armed but at the same time it is my right to help them see the financial impact of such an error

Actually, this line of thinking is part of the problem. First, allow me to define a "right" as a freedom of action. Why is it their right to keep you out of their premises if you are armed? How does being armed violate their property rights? By being armed, are you destroying their property somehow? Are you preventing them from doing what they wish with their property?

Now, what's the point of "right to carry" if everyone can decide to post "no guns" signs. There's no freedom to carry in that case. Your freedom to carry does not infringe on the business owners freedom to do business. They'd never even know you're carrying since its concealed.

Oh yeah, and most large companies have "site policies" regarding not being able to bring firearms onto work properties. Not sure about compliance in NY (I think it's high), but when I lived in Idaho, I know for a fact people kept firearms in their vehicles.

44 AMP
February 3, 2009, 10:18 PM
See if you can find a business with a sign like this;
No Shirt
No Shoes
No Gun
No Service

Don't think you will, but good luck.

A grey area, with businesses, because they can be both a private owned place, and yet a public place.

I do actually support the business's right to set their store policy. They aren't infringing on me, because I don't have to go there. Unlike come govt buildings where by law I may have to go, which prohibit my bearing arms.

Your idea is a good one, but also consider all the businesses that may not post signs, but actively contribute to the anti-gun agenda. Do some reasearch, and I think you'll be surprised how many big corporations are on that list.

jfinstrom
February 3, 2009, 11:43 PM
I have taken some initial steps. I set up a blog @ http://gunfriendly.blogspot.com/ and a submission form @ http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?key=pQjW9usuUSMqSYgVrXCF-Pw

I will put it up on digg and do some other promotion to see what pops up. I will work on theming this and if support picks up putting it in a proper domain.

Glenn E. Meyer
February 4, 2009, 10:39 AM
Some states have local gun forums and subforums about business issues. Might look for that.

Chuckusaret
February 4, 2009, 11:12 AM
.........blog or website to track both businesses that are anti-gun and businesses who are gun friendly..............

Thats a great idea. Not only would it inform us of what business to boycott it might also save us a unecessary trip. Save some gas money to buy better things elsewhere

Croz
February 4, 2009, 11:38 AM
I agree the signs are rare, but I have seen them. Besides the unintentionally ironic ones posted at gun stores, I have seen them at 2 car dealerships and one at a doctor's office. They both stress "for the safety of our employees and customers, this is a gun free zone."

Until a BG decides to ignore the sign. Then safety's pretty much out the window.

jaarond1
February 4, 2009, 12:01 PM
I like the idea...just submited SwapGiant.com to your blog as a gun supporting site. It's a site dedicated to bartering/swapping and is getting nig very fast, especially among gun users.

Check it out and tell others about it for thier firearm ads and other things too.

http://www.swapgiant.com

Chuckusaret
February 4, 2009, 12:04 PM
Until a BG decides to ignore the sign. Then safety's pretty much out the window.

Why would the bad guy obey the sign? The sign only restricts the good guy that has followed the laws of the land. If I were a BG I would carry out all my business at the places that have "No Guns" sign posted. Would be a safe place to rob, no guns except the BG's.

Croz
February 4, 2009, 01:34 PM
Why would the bad guy obey the sign? The sign only restricts the good guy that has followed the laws of the land. If I were a BG I would carry out all my business at the places that have "No Guns" sign posted. Would be a safe place to rob, no guns except the BG's.

That's exactly what I meant, I just didn't say it well.

#18indycolts
February 4, 2009, 01:45 PM
just curious how you could attract the two together. Its like getting the pro & anti abortion crowd to go bowling...guns are a very touchy subject to some.

armsmaster270
February 4, 2009, 01:51 PM
It is a nice way to tell business owners its your right. But if you don't wan't my gun you will not get any of my money.

DG45
February 7, 2009, 01:12 AM
This is an excellent thread because as some one mentioned, if your state law says you can carry a concealed weapon and you are licensed to do so, how can a private entity prevent you from doing so? There are certain places that my state law says I may NOT carry a gun, like onto a schoolyard, even with a CCW permit, which I have. There are different points of view on that, but I understand the intent of the law. But there are a few other establishments in my home town that are not on the list of places the state law mentions as gun free zones that have put one of those red circles with a gun in it crossed over and the words No Guns Allowed written on their doors. If I carried a gun onto their premises, have I broken a law? Or am I just somebody that they consider a social undesirable that they would rather not have in their place of business? (Hey, I'm for free enterprise. I fully suscribe to the belief that a business establishment has the right to refuse service to anyone (including me) at any time for any reason, except in cases of violation of someone elses civil rights.) But if I have a CCW permit from my state, and I take a gun into one of this places that are not mentioned in my states law but who say no guns allowed anyway, and they find out about it, have I actually broken a LAW?

Croz
February 7, 2009, 09:22 AM
If their signs do not have the force of law, then you have not broken a law going in. They do have the right to ask you to leave, and you could be guilty of trespass if you do not leave after being asked.

At least, that's how my non-lawyer reading of the law in Florida works.

Chuckusaret
February 7, 2009, 10:48 AM
I'm confused. I carry 99% of the time and I have made visits to stores that do have signs stating "No Guns Allowed" without a problem. How would the stores staff know I have CCW unless I told them or for some reason that they would know that I am armed, then they could ask that I leave. Would I leave, I doubt I would because I have broken no law.

schmieg
February 7, 2009, 04:21 PM
Ohioans for Concealed Carry has done this for some time now with their "Do Not Patronize While Armed" database. You can access it from their home page at

http://www.OhioCCW.org/index.php

Contact Dan White or Jeff Garvas of OFCC and they can probably give you more information about the software and implementation.

schmieg
February 7, 2009, 04:25 PM
"I'm confused. I carry 99% of the time and I have made visits to stores that do have signs stating "No Guns Allowed" without a problem. How would the stores staff know I have CCW unless I told them or for some reason that they would know that I am armed, then they could ask that I leave. Would I leave, I doubt I would because I have broken no law."

Different states deal with this differently. In some states, the signs have no force of law and you must refuse to leave when asked before trespassing penalties apply. In other states, such as Ohio, the signs do have force of law. Knowingly entering a Criminal Protection Zone as we call them in Ohio is a 4th degree misdemeanor. The business must "conspicuously" post a sign indicating his wishes. The question becomes what is "conspicuous." Some business post tiny signs away from the door (one even posted it inside the exit door) and the question is whether that places the licensee on proper notice. So far, the police appear to have been reasonable on this issue.

dburkhead
February 7, 2009, 06:51 PM
In Indiana, even signs saying "no guns" (unless they're on government owned property) have no legal force.

However, the owners or their proxies (which generally mean employees in the case of a business) can ask you to leave the premises for any reason. Failure to leave when asked is trespass and is illegal.

daywalker627
February 13, 2009, 01:36 PM
I do not know if this will help. I frequent a website for Virginia in which I live. This site posts Unfriendly gun owner places of buisness.

Here is the link

http://www.vcdl.org/static/gue.html

Like I stated. I do not know if this will help you or not. Just thought it was close to what you are thinking of doing.

johnwilliamson062
February 13, 2009, 02:18 PM
In ohio these signs are pretty much the norm. Any restaurant that serves alcohol must post them. many others have been told by lawyers that they must as part of meeting their responsibility to create a safe work environment.

sailor99
February 13, 2009, 02:57 PM
In Oregon, if a business posts a sign no guns allowed and you carry one in, concealed handgun license or not, you are trespassing; and subject to all the criminal penalties that go along with that. Personally, I totally agree with that. It is their property, it is their right not to allow anyone on it if they doing something that they don't agree with, such as carrying a weapon.

Kjeil
February 13, 2009, 04:58 PM
I think another idea would be to provide information on their internal policies that they subject their employees to.

For example many large companies prohibit employees from having guns in their parked cars which drastically limits their ability to carry. Employees have to choose between being defenseless on the way to and from work versus the risk of getting fired if they get caught. All this is just to prevent their legal exposure in case of an employee shooting.

Huey Long
February 13, 2009, 05:52 PM
True, as would I but in NY, at least my area, I have never seen a "no guns" sign in my entire life.

Hardly anyone is legally allowed to carry a gun in New York, so "no guns" pretty much goes without saying there.

OTOH, "no guns" signage is much commoner here in Arizona.

DG45
February 13, 2009, 10:36 PM
I'm not a lawyer and nothing in this post should be interpreted or construed in any way as legal advice. It's strictly my laymans questions and laymans opinions, but someone earlier in this post mentioned that businesses restrict guns on their premises as a way of limiting their liability. I'm not sure that's the way things are going to finally work out for Virginia Tech. Virginia Tech first banned guns on their campus thereby denying all their law-abiding students -ie., 99.999% of them - a right guaranteed to them by the Second Amendment of the Constitution of the United States, then Tech failed miserably and completely to enforce that ban against the 1 student among their many thousands of students who no one in his right mind would have wanted to have a gun on that campus. I don't know if Tech has settled all the claims yet but I imagine they will eventually find out what real liability is if there are as many brilliant ambulance chasers in Virginia as there are everywhere else. Think about it: When someone, anyone, steps in and in effect says "You are required by our authority as (fill in the blank here - business owner; university bigwig, or state government) to check your Constitutional Rights as a US citizen at the Door" (of our business, or of our university, or of our state) before you come in, then it seems to me that particular entity who has forced you to compromise your rights in order to make a purchase, go to college, or travel through that state on your way to another, has accepted some serious liability for your safety from crime while in that business or on that campus or in that state. Any lawyers on the forum? Anybody care to comment? (By the way, why doesn't our side cover up the other side in lawsuits like they do us?)

daywalker627
February 14, 2009, 02:08 AM
I myself am very unsure of how I feel about private company's not allowing conceald guns into their place of buisness. I have mixed feelings towards it. On one hand, being a CCW permit holder, I would not want my right infringed upon to where I can and can not carry my fire arm. Now on the other hand, should I infringe on the buisness owner rights to determine wether they want CCW allowed in their buisness? I for one would choose not to do buisness with that company, and that would be my right. Within this country, everyone is suppose to have certain rights to things. Every day, everyone is trying to put "their rights" in front of the others. Example, I have the right to clean air, Joe has the right to smoke. I say my right to clean air should have presidence over Joe's right to smoke. In the end, there are places that ban smoking in their establishment. Guns is close to that type of argument. I have the right by the 2nd admendment to carry a firearm. Joe has the right as an antigun person to determine if someone can carry a gun in a place of buisness in which he has to put his own money up on rent or morgage payment on the building plus items which he purchases to sell.

All I know is this, I have the right to CCW. The state issued me my permit and states that I pass every criteria required to have the permit. I carry mine with me at all times and go by the don't ask, don't tell. If I see a sign in the window that states no guns allowed, I will respect their right and practice my right by sending my buisness elsewhere. I love the idea of having a site that I can visit that lists places that do not allow guns so that I can maximize my time and plan on going to another buisness to do my spending.

I hope what I have typed makes sense. If not then I appologize for waisting what little precious time we all have. I wanted to add my 2 cents to the conversation on what I believe in. As I think on it longer, my belief may change. Then again, I may still be right where I am. I know that everyone's right is a never ending circle as far as one person's right over the next person's right for anything.

Huey Long
February 14, 2009, 02:36 AM
I myself am very unsure of how I feel about private company's not allowing conceald guns into their place of buisness. I have mixed feelings towards it. On one hand, being a CCW permit holder, I would not want my right infringed upon to where I can and can not carry my fire arm. Now on the other hand, should I infringe on the buisness owner rights to determine wether they want CCW allowed in their buisness?

Mos businesses are incorporated and corporations have no rights. In fact, IMO, corporations come close to being extensions of the state and should probably be bound by the Rill of Rights the same way the government is.

If the business is owned by an individual and not a corporation, then his house, his rules.

Kjeil
February 14, 2009, 03:13 AM
I certainly know what you mean about the vicious circle of rights but I think there is certainly some middle ground here.

I can agree that it makes sense for companies to be able to set policies as to what you can bring into the building and if they choose to now allow me to bring my gun inside then fine I can live with that.

But the problem is that most companies also consider the parking lot as part of their policy. So employees don't even have the option of leaving it in their locked car. As a result the employee must either risk his job or be defenseless on the way to or from work and anywhere he stops along the way.

So in other words, in the name of protecting people at work employers are limiting the protection their employees have away from work. That's where I think they go too far.

Many states are pushing laws this year to prevent this problem.

daywalker627
February 14, 2009, 12:29 PM
I can understand and appreciate where you are coming from.

DG45
February 14, 2009, 04:04 PM
Airlines ban guns; so do courthouses. Law-abiding Americans read the signs at airports and courthouses and don't go in with guns; but the airlines and the courts know that those signs only affect the law-abiding, so they go the extra mile and deter those who are not law-abiding from bringing guns in too. They put metal detectors and armed guards at the entrances and egresses to make sure that the criminal element can't come in with guns either. Virginia Tech on the other hand "banned" guns on its campus but did not go the extra mile of assuring that non law-abiders too would be unable to bring guns onto the campus. By disarming the law-abiding among their student body while not disarming the criminal, the school allowed a deranged gunman bent on mass murder to penetrate their campus and rain down mass murder on the law abiding students who the school had first disarmed and then betrayed by not disarming the criminal too. I'm not a lawyer and this is not a legal opinion but I don't see how the school can escape being liable for that to the tune of billions of dollars. So, the argument that businesses make that they are avoiding liability by their so-called gun bans while all along they know, that like Virginia Tech, they are just "banning" guns among the law-abiding, while not taking any steps to assure that the criminal element can't bring in guns either, may prove in the end to not be a wise business decision.

shortwave
February 15, 2009, 03:27 PM
I don`t believe anyone`s rights should be infinged on. IMO if a person has a business and a no gun sign posted, thats their right and I respect it. I will absolutely not patronize that same business. I try to find owner of business and politely give him/her a 'no gun =`s no $' card. Their competitor gets my business. Thats my right;).

mold maker
February 15, 2009, 04:08 PM
My favorite eatery posted the no guns sign. I asked the owner for a written statement, that he personally assumed the guarantee of our safety.
My family, being regular customers, then departed.
Several days later, the owner called, to say the signs were gone, and I was welcome, including my CCW. He had really never thought about what the sign implied.