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View Full Version : Is carrying 2 guns overkill?


Corpsman
January 25, 2009, 06:33 AM
I currently carry a G23 IWB and a small .22 in either my pocket or on the ankle. Violent crime is almost non-existent at my current duty station in Key West, FL. But I do roadtrip alot on a motorcycle and dont want to be underprepared. Any advice or personal insight would be greatly appreciated.

Magyar
January 25, 2009, 07:16 AM
Not sure if it's a matter of over-kill, and at times a B.U.G. might seem necessary. However, it's a mute point in NM since it's illegal to CC more than one. If your state says otherwise, maybe you can make it work...I've always felt that what you have in your mag should be sufficient in a defensive posture. Anything beyond that: "cover & the Calvary"....:) The endless points of a failure in your primary piece are narrowly restricted to those that are unfamiliar with their weapon. Let me count the ways.......

Odd Job
January 25, 2009, 07:23 AM
I regularly carried a 9mmP IWB and a .25 in my off site pocket in SA. Nothing wrong with having a backup as long as it doesn't impinge on the handling of your main pistol.

curt.45
January 25, 2009, 07:41 AM
there have been times in my life I carried two or three full size guns.


I don't own an ankle holster and only two guns small enough to carry in my pocket.

hoytinak
January 25, 2009, 07:46 AM
Is carrying 2 guns overkill?

IMO, for a civilian.....yes it is. But if it makes you feel safer to carry more than go for it.

mrt949
January 25, 2009, 08:07 AM
I always have two seecamp 32 . in front pocket mp 40c in car. cannot be too carefull.

shortwave
January 25, 2009, 08:17 AM
Its a personnal thing. Daily I don`t carry BUG. If I`m on a trip I`ll usually be carrying two.

Sneezer
January 25, 2009, 08:21 AM
It's better to be prepared for a situation and not have one than to have a situation and not be prepared.

Kreyzhorse
January 25, 2009, 08:23 AM
Some night say carrying even 1 gun is overkill. While I only carry one CCW myself, if carrying two works for you, why wouldn't you?

alloy
January 25, 2009, 08:42 AM
i dont think its overkill, it just aint for me.

45Marlin carbine
January 25, 2009, 09:05 AM
I ride a m/c too and I got into a situation one time where I wished I had packed another pistol and more ammo. I do now when going into remote areas.

tshadow6
January 25, 2009, 09:12 AM
I awlawys have at least two guns with me when I travel. I left my small .380 home once during an overnight trip and I missed it every minute. When I go home to the South Florida area, I carry two guns, extra magazines and spare ammo.

SilentHitz
January 25, 2009, 09:18 AM
Not in my book, I always carry 2. Anything man-made can malfunction...at any time, I carry a bug just in case it happens at a time when I might need it most. No worries just out plinking, but on the road, gimme a spare...tire & gun.;)

Double Naught Spy
January 25, 2009, 09:30 AM
Is it overkill?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
As you are seeing from most of the posts, if you carry more than some other gun person, it is overkill. The reason why is obvious. We all make the most reasonable decisions and anyone who does more than us is obviously in the realm of overkill. We may not know you or your situation, but we know when you have crossed the line. So since most of us don't carry two guns, then if you carry a bug, sure, it is overkill. It isn't reasonable.

The same discussion can be found for carrying spare magazines. Overkill exists if there is just one spare magazine for some people because they know that the "average" gun fight only requires 3 rounds for a given shooter. As such, anything ammo above that is extra, but since they are good with carrying a fully loaded gun, then you get to carry more than 3 rounds so long as it is doesn't inolve a spare magazine.

Some folks feel that one magazine is enough, in case your gun has a problem (malfunction) whereby you need a different magazine, not because you actually need the additional ammo. A few feel the additional ammo is good. However, you are engaged in overkill if you carry 2 spare magazines because they only carry one. Since you would be doing more than them and since they are doing what is reasonable, then you carrying two is overkill.

Heaven forbid that you carry a primary gun, spare mags, and a bug. That is just plain crazy talk. You are some sort of mental case.

If you are a LEO, then you can carry more and it not be considered overkill because your life is more precious than the lives of the rest of us.

Now you may try to justify carrying some amount above the norm because you live or work in a dangerous place. If so, then what you are doing is unreasonable and you need to move, quit your job, or otherwise engage in activities that don't put you at risk - unless you are a cop. Because if your life is such that you need to have more than what another gun owner considers is normal and you can justify it by circumstances the other gun owner feels are more dangerous than his/her own, then you are way out of line in your behavior and not all that bright if you continue to engage in it. It just isn't reasonable.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

If I am not carrying spare mags, then I carry a bug. My life isn't in circumstances that I consider particularly dangerous. In fact, it is awfully safe. It is just that I have worked out things such that I may carry that much without it being an imposition to me and as such find it prudent to carry what I carry.

Carrying a bug means having a gun as a spare or a gun to share with another should the circumstances require it. Giving a spare magazine to an unarmed person does absolutely no good.

Corpsman
January 25, 2009, 09:39 AM
Thank you all for the comments and advice

CDH
January 25, 2009, 09:46 AM
Yea, I have to vote "overkill" as well.

The only reason you'd take two with is if you actually expect to get into a gun fight, and that goes against all reasons why carry defensively.

We CCW carriers are already considered to be paranoid by many, and I wouldn't want to explain why I carry two pistols.

Sidenote: A casual friend was having fun with me recently suggesting that I'm paranoid because I carry.
I simply asked him if he carried a spare tire in his car, and he of course said "yes" which allowed me the opportunity to ask him if he's "paranoid" about being stranded in the middle of no-where sometime.
I think I won him over by pointing out that one man's paranoia can be another man's "preparedness".
But I sure don't want to have to explain two pistols to him, because I'm pretty sure that he doesn't carry two spares in his car. :o

I would suggest that rather than carrying a second pistol, just add a two-pack of mags on your belt if you think you'll need the extra firepower.

Double Naught Spy
January 25, 2009, 10:03 AM
So you are okay with explaining why you carry one gun and two spare magazines, but you aren't expecting a fight, but you would not want to have to explain carrying two guns?

Since two guns is more than what YOU carry, it is therefore overkill. Thanks for making my point.

1-UP
January 25, 2009, 10:19 AM
Personally, I think so. The guy that dropped his gun in the bathroom brought me a bit more down to Earth on a lot of this stuff. I've lost/dropped plenty of things out of plenty of pockets/holsters/cases and an extra firearm just seems like a hassle to me. Still, if it doesn't bother you and you think that the benefits outweigh the cons, who am I to judge?

Reference article if you missed it -

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2009/jan/14/gun-goes-carls-jr-restroom-shatters-toilet/

BikerRN
January 25, 2009, 10:21 AM
In response to the original question, I often carry three with reloads for each gun.

So, in short, NO. I do not find carrying a BUG "overkill", but that's just me. I have needed a second gun before, IRL. Carry what you want, I will.

As far as having to explain why you carry more than one gun, I'd rather do that than be DOA.

Biker

Japle
January 25, 2009, 10:21 AM
Not overkill at all. It's like seatbelts and airbags. Sure, you might just need the seatbelt, but that doesn't mean you should deactivate the airbag.

My wife and I took my mom out to eat last night.
Here's what I had with me:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/Japle/Guns/Carrystuffredbackground.jpg

dajowi
January 25, 2009, 10:37 AM
Do you trim your nails and insert the ear plugs before the gunfight:D

B.N.Real
January 25, 2009, 10:37 AM
No,especially if your primary is a semi auto.

Wagonman
January 25, 2009, 10:49 AM
Do whatever you think is prudent and reasonable. Nobody should know what you are armed with. You will end up where ever you are comfortable equipment wise.

It's analogous to rookies----they look like a equipment catalog then they start to shed "must-haves" as it becomes a PITA to haul that stuff around.

YZR
January 25, 2009, 11:24 AM
If it's overkill then I'm guilty of overkill.
I always have a .38 on my ankle and a .380 in my back pocket.
Why? Because I can!

Playboypenguin
January 25, 2009, 12:13 PM
Yes, it is probably over-kill. Of course, statistically speaking, carrying a high capacity gun is over-kill. Heck, carrying one at all is probably over-kill. It is just a matter of with what level of "over preparedness" you personally feel comfortable.

I personally do not see issue with how a person carries until it has an effect on their daily activities and personal comfort. if you start not doing normal activities which you would want to do if not for your sidearm or you start sacrificing personal comfort for emotional comfort, that can be an issue.

vox rationis
January 25, 2009, 12:25 PM
I almost never carry two because as a result of my own personal "need/benefit vs comfort" analysis I end up with carrying only one gun.

But your question itself is flawed as there is no dogmatic all encompassing answer for how many guns one "should" carry, or what is "overkill" or not, except for maybe to say that one should have at least one, if one is serious about personal defense.

Beyond that, if your own need/comfort analysis dictates that you carry three guns, well then that's what you should carry.

Wagonman
January 25, 2009, 01:47 PM
Four guns? You patrolling Iraq? The most I have carried at work is three and that was on a fugitive taskforce detail actively looking for violent BGs

George PT-111
January 25, 2009, 01:55 PM
4 guns, wow thats a bit pushy I'd say.:D

shortwave
January 25, 2009, 01:59 PM
Somehow I just knew there would be some comedy(post#21,#28) in this thread:D. Keep it coming!

Gazdik
January 25, 2009, 02:54 PM
"no. I aways carrie at least four guns on me. so its not overkil at all to carrie too guns. If it makes you feel more better to have too guns then thats what you should do."


:rolleyes:...Great, this guy has 4 guns about him and can't even spell very good...I feel safer..

Playboypenguin
January 25, 2009, 02:57 PM
...Great, this guy has 4 guns about him and can't even spell very good...I feel safer..

I sent him a PM saying hello and asking where he hailed from. I was thinking english might be a second language. He has thus far failed to respond.

If english is not his second language I would become suspicious of someone that is filling the boards with such poorly written posts including questionable behavior.

Jeff #111
January 25, 2009, 03:00 PM
I carry two guns when I'm on duty. I carry one gun with a reload when off duty. Four is a bit much however.

Jason R
January 25, 2009, 03:16 PM
I don't think it's overkill. I've usually got one/two in the truck and one on me. I think one is more than enough for almost every occasion as long as you've trained with the weapon.

And...revolvers can "fail." Someone I know very well had a .38 Revolver fail to fire, bad primer. Factory loaded ammo. Scary stuff.

KnightZero
January 25, 2009, 03:16 PM
Two is definitely not too many. For EDC, I only carry one, but I have carried two on a few occasions. When getting accustomed to a new carry piece, I do normally carry a secondary that I trust as a backup. I've never carried more pistols than I have hands - I'm not saying that its a bad thing to do so, but I had to set a personal limit. I'm all for options, and backup, but if I ever do need it, I don't want to spend too long deciding which one of my many carry pieces I'm willing to relinquish to the cops when they show up after the altercation. Precious seconds and all that jazz.

Now that I've been shooting for almost a year, and have experienced some malfunctions in a few autoloaders, I will say that carrying a small unobtrusive revolver to back up a semi sounds like a really good idea. Of course, that could just be my mind trying to justify spending money on a pocket revolver. And a range revolver. And a bedside revolver. And a .22 revolver for plinking.

ISC
January 25, 2009, 03:42 PM
I carry two handguns, a case of greenades, a sawed off shotgun, 6 throwing stars and a japanese puffer fish to throw at assailants in case of attack.

Corpsman
January 25, 2009, 05:05 PM
I will probably carry a second mag when I am alone, but continue to carry my .22 when with my wife. She has a .38 and a P22, but no c/c liscense yet. This way she can help out if needed. Thank you for all the advice.

Corpsman
January 25, 2009, 05:08 PM
ISC, what kind of holster do you carry the puffer fish in?:D:D

Playboypenguin
January 25, 2009, 05:09 PM
and a japanese puffer fish to throw at assailants in case of attack.
Only one??? :rolleyes: :p

JN01
January 25, 2009, 05:13 PM
ISC, what kind of holster do you carry the puffer fish in?

Why, a clamshell, of course. :)

45Marlin carbine
January 25, 2009, 05:16 PM
since I found myself in the scrape I did years back I carry a spare box of cartridges in addition to the spare mag I always have carried with my 'trail gun' Ruger .22LR semi-auto. and some other handgun with a spare mag - either my .32acp Beretta, Makarov (usually) or rarely my Ruger .357 w/speed loader.

nate45
January 25, 2009, 05:26 PM
The only reason you'd take two with is if you actually expect to get into a gun fight

The old sheriff was attending an awards dinner when a lady commented on his wearing his sidearm. 'Sheriff, I see you have your pistol. Are you expecting trouble?' 'No Ma'am. If I were expecting trouble, I would have brought my shotgun.'


I don't think one is paranoid if they carry a BUG. The reason being is that you never know exactly what the future might have in store. Also like the old Sheriff if I knew I was going to be involved in a shooting I would not select a handgun as my primary armament.

Naterstein
January 25, 2009, 05:31 PM
I can see the feasibility of carrying a pocket/ankle gun as well as a primary carry OWB/IWB. If you can do it, go for it.

sserdlihc
January 25, 2009, 05:34 PM
ISC, what kind of holster do you carry the puffer fish in?

See this classic comedy right here!:D

DieHard06
January 25, 2009, 05:41 PM
Nice posts so far.

Thanks Double Naught Spy,

Like the saying goes, "Anyone driving slower than me is an idiot and anyone driving faster is a maniac."

I normally only carry one gun, but I am thinking about carrying two once I get my pocket gun sometime this year. Mainly, because I can lock my primary away if I need to and just pocket carry while I am out. Sometimes I will carry both while other times I will carry one or the other.

In Masaad Ayoob's book Gun Digest of Concealed Carry, he ssys that one should carry two with the BUG being in your weak hand side just in case you get shot in the shoulder or arm of your strong hand side. My NRA Basic instructor doesn't understand why anyone would carry two guns. I find it both useful and sometimes overkill at the same time, but I have no objections to it at all.

jdscholer
January 25, 2009, 05:45 PM
I think if you're going somewhere that you might need a spare gun, you should take a spare person to pack it.;) There's a lot to be said for havin' each others back. jd

sserdlihc
January 25, 2009, 05:50 PM
I think if you're going somewhere that you might need a spare gun, you should take a spare person to pack it. There's a lot to be said for havin' each others back. jd

+1 for JD

Playboypenguin
January 25, 2009, 06:12 PM
ISC, what kind of holster do you carry the puffer fish in?
Why, a clamshell, of course.
That is just silliness. Everyone knows you carry it in a "finny" pack. :p :D :barf:

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r89/PlayboyPenguin/Various/PuffyFanny.jpg

tblt44
January 25, 2009, 06:13 PM
No its not overkill I carry my LCP everywhere and add my CW9 or my J frame sometimes.
If times get bad I may carry 3 guns.I will try it next weekend.9 mm HST/38 Gold dot/.380 golden saber

sserdlihc
January 25, 2009, 06:15 PM
that Is Just Silliness. Everyone Knows You Carry It In A "finny" Pack.

Rotflmao :D:D

dabigguns357
January 25, 2009, 06:30 PM
I carry one main gun on my hip but i also carry a snubbie .357 in the car when i go places.

bbrian
January 25, 2009, 06:47 PM
Japle -

At what point of the mugging do you put in the ear plugs?

Eskimo
January 25, 2009, 06:52 PM
It's better to be prepared for a situation and not have one than to have a situation and not be prepared.

One could argue that it's better to go unprepared because that "situation" is extremely unlikely, and to prepare for that situation costs 500+ dollars and discomfort.

Taking risks is a part of life.. and I would hardly even call going unarmed a risk. I think even one pistol is overkill for the many people that don't live in very bad areas.

jdscholer
January 25, 2009, 07:26 PM
It would sure be a shame to be packin three or four guns and have some bad guy who is quick and savy knock ya along side the head and take em all. And I've known guys who could do it.:rolleyes: jd

dmwphoto
January 25, 2009, 07:28 PM
yes

supergas452M
January 25, 2009, 07:38 PM
Not sure if it's a matter of over-kill, and at times a B.U.G. might seem necessary. However, it's a mute point in NM since it's illegal to CC more than one. If your state says otherwise, maybe you can make it work...I've always felt that what you have in your mag should be sufficient in a defensive posture. Anything beyond that: "cover & the Calvary".... The endless points of a failure in your primary piece are narrowly restricted to those that are unfamiliar with their weapon. Let me count the ways.......


Interesting that you brought that up Magyar. When I took my CCW class, the instuctor told us that if you have a Utah Permit, which New Mexico recognizes you could carry more than one CCW. One of the myriad of reasons I decided to get the Utah permit first. He told us that he carries more than one CCW. He is however part time LEO. I wonder what the truth of this whole deal is with New Mexico and an out of state permit.

Lost Sheep
January 25, 2009, 08:06 PM
When I carry (which is seldom) I will normally carry just my Ruger SP101 .357 Mag 5 shot revolver. With a speedloader.

The speedloader is a second SP101. (also sometimes known as a "New York Reload")

However, once, when I knew I might be in harm's way, I did carry two 1911s.

But then, my environment is pretty well controlled. If my lifestyle, neighborhood or job were more risky or less under my control, I would be more vigilant and pack heavier firepower.


Lost Sheep

Semper Paratus
January 25, 2009, 08:11 PM
I shoot a fair number of rounds through my primary carry pistol a DW Pre CZ CBOB, like 2-3K/yr. I almost always clean and lube before reloading and leaving the range. Times like that with my primary in parts on the bench I am glad to have my S&W Model 60 in a pocket holster.

JTMcC
January 25, 2009, 08:37 PM
This is still America so carry what makes you happy.

The "two spare tire" comment is innacurate, in this case your first gun is just that, your second gun would be your spare.

I don't think two is overkill be it guns, flashlights, knives, sweatshirts or any number of other things that I carry backups for.
But I'm primarily in remote rural areas, where if you didn't bring it with you, you go without.
My truck has enought cold weather gear to survive a breakdown at night in the sticks, some simple "emergency" type food, spare firearms, spare ammo, batteries, lot's of things I'll hopefully not need to break out. But if I do, it's right there.

When I was a kid I worked in a shop in Northern Arizona and drove the wrecker most days. I was amazed at the number of people I winched out of the snow, who were freezing, wearing t-shirts, (because that's all they had) and saying "we thought Arizona was a desert"!

I'll add that I'm a lot more likely to have to deal with a pack of wild dogs than a pack of wild humans, but in either case I'd rather have more than I need.

Not everyone is living in the same circumstances that you are, needs and requirements differ widely from area to area and person to person.

JTMcC

oldhack62
January 25, 2009, 08:46 PM
Carrying a gun at all is overkill -- except when it isn't. And THAT, of course, is why those of us here carry -- in defense of the odd time when it isn't.
Regarding a BUG: I find a high-capacity mag is usually comforting, but if clothing and circumstances allow a second, concealed (although my state doesn't require concealment) pistol, I'll carry one.
We prepare for the worst so that, hopefully, we never have to face it.

btolliverjr
January 25, 2009, 08:52 PM
It probably is "over-kill". Most likely carrying 1 gun is probably "over-kill" since the probability of ever having to use one is very low. That being said, I usually carry 2 anymore. Basically just becuase my LCP stays in my pants pocket all the time. 99% of the time, I also carry my M&P 9c IWB. It's not that I feel anymore safe with 2 guns than I do 1, I just carry both becuase I don't even realize the LCP is there. If my second gun were any bigger than the LCP, I wouldn't carry a B.U.G.

Corpsman
January 25, 2009, 09:18 PM
Since I am in the Coast Guard, I dont have access to the cool toys like ISC. But I am a medic, so if the gun fails I can always just sedate them. Then it gives me time to correct the issue with my weapon.:D:D:D

1BigOak
January 25, 2009, 09:20 PM
its not overkill when you take a wrong turn and end up in the wrong hood

SilentHitz
January 26, 2009, 05:06 AM
...or live in the hood, like me. And before anyone says move, PM me and I'll give you the addy to send the cash to.;)

WESHOOT2
January 26, 2009, 07:46 AM
Mr. Smith offers an eloquent opinion on this 'issue': "One is none; two is one".

I agree.

My personal opinion (and behavior) mirror Mr. Smith's advice; two guns (or more) make perfect sense.
My answer is "No".

garryc
January 26, 2009, 08:23 AM
It's not overkill for an LEO, so why would it be for a civilian. Heck, he even has a long gun in the car, plus one of his most effective weapons, his radio. If he calls "shot fired" every cop within ten miles comes running. Do you have any fantacy that you would get that responce? You wouldn't. Remember, that LEO's life is no more or less valuble than yours.

heyjoe
January 26, 2009, 08:37 AM
Wether you carry one, two or no guns is your choice but to compare your tactical needs to a LEO is faulty logic. A LEO has a duty to go towards a problem and hold his position, you should be withdrawing yourself from a problem ASAP. No ones life is more important than anothers but the reason for people to carry and what their role is varies.

Geoff Timm
January 26, 2009, 08:39 AM
Truly it is written, "37. There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'time to reload.' "

Reference: http://www.schlockmercenary.com/

Cross Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlock_Mercenary

Geoff
Who notes the "Habits of Highly Successful Pirates."

Double Naught Spy
January 26, 2009, 08:44 AM
"One is none; two is one".

LOL, that is one of Mr. Smith's nonsensical statements. He tried to make a good statment, but just had no clue on what he was saying in terms of his actual words.

If 1=0 and 2=1, then 2=0. In other words, if one is none and two is one, then two is also none. If two is none, then you are in the same place as where you started with one being none.

One isn't none unless something happens to it.

Why Smith didn't just call it a "backup" like everyone else is beyond me. "Backup" means just that.

Geoff Timm
January 26, 2009, 08:54 AM
The local LEOs are equipped with:

Chemical spray
Taser
Glock
Back up gun
M-16A1 in the car

I note the absence of impact weapons, none of that Rodney King stuff on video here. Sigh.

Many years ago a Texas LEO carried a Model 66 4" in a shoulder holster and a Model 19 2 1/2" in a belt holster. When he worked dangerous arrests the small gun was in his hand, discretely. Those he admitted to, the bulge about where his cowboy boot top hit his pants leg I didn't inquire about.

Geoff
Who figures two guns gives you the fastest reload possible.

WESHOOT2
January 26, 2009, 09:05 AM
If one does not understand (yet) the concept of "One is none..." then one is lucky.
So far.....

There is no nonsense when the primary firearm has failed.

Alert
January 26, 2009, 09:06 AM
Who figures two guns gives you the fastest reload possible.

isn't that called a New York reload? back on topic I looked at my license and it says one loaded pistol concealed on or about my person

armsmaster270
January 26, 2009, 09:16 AM
Sig 226 .357Sig in holster and S&W 340PD in pocket always. If I dont need them Oh well. If I do I don't have time to go home to get them.

WESHOOT2
January 26, 2009, 09:17 AM
You gotta get a btter "license".......

alistaire
January 26, 2009, 09:22 AM
My wife and I took my mom out to eat last night.
Here's what I had with me:
Ear plugs??? Hm, I suppose if I were a mugger and my victim calmly inserted ear plugs, I might decide to rob someone else.

Wagonman
January 26, 2009, 09:26 AM
I am a big believer in two is one, I carry three lights on me and one in my bag, two guns, three pairs of cuffs two cuff keys, three knives, multi tools and most importantly four pens.

Why is there a snide comparison of LEOs equipment choices. A CCW's and a LEO have different missions. A LEO has to handle a given situation A CCW has to safely leave a given situation.


That said, I feel you should carry whatever you feel you comfortable with if it is three guns with reloads ----God Bless If it's a Snubbie jammed in a pocket----God Bless. Vive le difference.

Alert
January 26, 2009, 09:33 AM
You gotta get a btter "license".......

it's the only one Alabama issues to non law enforcement personnel, so it'll have to suffice

Croz
January 26, 2009, 10:21 AM
"My wife and I took my mom out to eat last night.
Here's what I had with me:"

Ear plugs??? Hm, I suppose if I were a mugger and my victim calmly inserted ear plugs, I might decide to rob someone else

If I took my wife and mom out to dinner, I'd have earplugs too. But they'd be for the dinner, not necessarily the walk in the dark back to the car...

kiov
January 26, 2009, 11:09 AM
try carrying two and see how it feels. my guess is that after carrying two for awhile, you will go back to one. i also think that, in general, an extra mag is a better choice than an extra gun.

as many have said, it all depends on your situation. for me, one very trusted gun makes me feel well protected. i already get enough grief for carrying one; if i started carrying two most non-TFL folks would consider me (more) paranoid, and for my low risk environment, they would likely be right.

Alert
January 26, 2009, 11:22 AM
You gotta get a btter "license".......
you have license in quotes like you may have thought I misspelled the word (the irony is your spelling of better), in which case you may want to look it up

overkill556x45
January 26, 2009, 11:25 AM
I'm looking at a J-Frame to stick in my weak side pocket. My current plan for CCW (STILL waiting for sheriff to hold the class-4 months waiting now....:( ) is my M&P9C IWB at 4 o'clock, extra mag in left rear pants pocket, J-frame in left jacket pocket (either interior or exterior left pocket). If I run through 24 rounds of 9mm, and 5 rounds of .38spl+p, either I won't need any more or more won't do me any good.

I like the idea of having two guns in two different locations. Plus I really want a J-frame and need to convince my wife that I really need it.

Shadi Khalil
January 26, 2009, 11:36 AM
I guess I think its overkill but I am not in your situation. I carry an extra mag and I think thats over kill and sometimes quite uncomfortable.

Japle
January 26, 2009, 12:30 PM
OK, for those who wonder why I carry the earplugs, it's not for the shootout.
I lost a lot of hearing in the service. When I get into noisy environments, like the damn loud trailers they show in the movies, I remove my hearing aids and use the plugs. Same goes for concerts.

Glenn E. Meyer
January 26, 2009, 02:28 PM
It's not overkill. It's for when things really go bad, that small percentage of the time. Since it is a small percentage of the time, it usually isn't needed but when it is - then it's good to have.

Personally, when someone carries on that it is nutty to have this level of extra equipment, I really don't pay attention to that.

I've seen stuff break or get lost. If circumstance occur that it gets lost or break in a bad incident, then you got extra.

Creature
January 26, 2009, 02:47 PM
It's not overkill. It's for when things really go bad, that small percentage of the time. Since it is a small percentage of the time, it usually isn't needed but when it is - then it's good to have.

Personally, when someone carries on that it is nutty to have this level of extra equipment, I really don't pay attention to that.

I've seen stuff break or get lost. If circumstance occur that it gets lost or break in a bad incident, then you got extra.

+1...but stand by for the "its just stupid to carry an extra magazine"-crowd to come barging in to further pontificate that the statistical likelihood of needing one, let alone two weapons, is so infinitely small as to make carrying even one weapon completely irrational!

Brian Pfleuger
January 26, 2009, 03:09 PM
...stand by for the "its just stupid to carry an extra magazine"-crowd...

Wow, I'm glad I'm not in that crowd. All I ever said was that needing an extra mag was too unlikely for me to carry one and that anyone who wants to should go right ahead and do it. A BUG is in the same category. Carry one if you want, I don't want.

Playboypenguin
January 26, 2009, 03:15 PM
...stand by for the "its just stupid to carry an extra magazine"-crowd...
If it is so stupid, why do shoulder holsters always have a place for an extra magazine? Huh...answer me that. :)

Glenn E. Meyer
January 26, 2009, 03:25 PM
pontificate that the statistical likelihood of needing one, let alone two weapons, is so infinitely small as to make carrying even one weapon completely irrational!


I think those who choose that path, Grasshopper - will see the Wrath of Pax.

We beat that to a bloodly pulp. :D

garryc
January 26, 2009, 03:28 PM
I'd say the only reasons to carry two would be in case you loose control of the primary or it fails when you need it. That isn't likely to happen so I carry an extra mag on my off side. If you want a second gun, there isn't anything wrong with that. But where would you carry it? On the ankle is crappy in my view.

alistaire
January 26, 2009, 03:41 PM
If it is legal to carry more than one gun, why settle for only two?

Creature
January 26, 2009, 03:43 PM
If it is so stupid, why do shoulder holsters always have a place for an extra magazine? Huh...answer me that.

Goooood question.....balance?

LanceOregon
January 26, 2009, 04:37 PM
I generally carry either my Kahr or my Walther in a holster, together with my Taser in a pants pocket.

Some pants like JC Penny's Stafford Pleated Dress pants have a nice change pocket inside the right pocket. The pocket itself is very generous in size. And the front of my Taser C2 fits very snugly inside the inner change pocket, keeping it upright and centered inside the pocket. I then put my wallet over it, which totally hides the taser's outline.

I've actually got pretty good about being able to draw my Taser quickly.

I have IWB holsters for both pistols. This combo of pistol and taser is typically my carry setup for most of the year.


http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/carry_weapons_email.jpg

Hunter Rose
January 26, 2009, 05:04 PM
Heh... some ask why multiples. Maybe because you need to carry with extra layers?

Seem to recall one lady on here carrying:

1911 @ 4 o'clock IWB
S&W J frame in left front pocket
2nd S&W in right jacket handwarmer pocket
S&W snub .44 in purse

Nobody argued that she was going for "overkill".

as for the "statistically, you only need..." crowd: if I need to use a weapon to defend my life, I've already dropped into a statistical anomoly. And now you want me to play the odds?

Magyar
January 26, 2009, 06:10 PM
If it is so stupid, why do shoulder holsters always have a place for an extra magazine? Huh...answer me that.
Weight distribution....All my nicer rigs have two mag pouchs on the opposite end...Wearing them w/o, I can see the point of why. It's kind of a "Ying & Yang" thing....
PBP, my rigs, Safariland & Bianchi are not attached..Yes, if to a belt; no problem with balance...

Playboypenguin
January 26, 2009, 06:12 PM
Weight distribution....All my nicer rigs have two mag pouchs on the opposite end...Wearing them w/o, I can see the point of why. It's kind of a "Ying & Yang" thing....

Actually, the mag side is attached to you belt...so the added weight of the mag does little to effect anything. :)

Creature
January 26, 2009, 07:50 PM
Balance!...as in symmetry!

Playboypenguin
January 26, 2009, 07:52 PM
Balance!...as in symmetry!
Oh yes, that part is important. :D

Crankylove
January 26, 2009, 08:28 PM
I only carry one pistol, and sometimes a spare mag. Carryin more than one isnt for me, but to each his own, who am I to pass judgement. Besides, the CCW for Utah is only valid for one concealed firearm, so even it I wanted to, I couldn't legally.

skeeter
January 27, 2009, 12:57 AM
Wouldn't a pair of Glocks balance you out nicely? That wouldn't be "overkill" it would be balanced.

bds32
January 27, 2009, 01:12 AM
Negative on the overkill. Carrying two guns is just plain smart. Do not convince yourself that you are paranoid. You may live your whole life and never need either one or......

Big Bill
January 27, 2009, 01:32 AM
I watched Bruce Willis in "Last Man Standing" and didn't think his two gun carry was overkill! :)

G-man 26
January 27, 2009, 01:53 AM
Would you consider a second in the car a bug? Do you really need the second gun to be on your person? Darn hard to carry two. Another (same model) gun in the trunk with extra mags for both would be good in my view.

btw, I carry my puffer fish in a sharkskin holster.:eek:

skoro
January 27, 2009, 07:34 AM
That's a question there's no stock answer to.

Each individual has to determine for themselves whether or not a backup is needed.

Myself, I think anyone involved in LE or security work would be unwise not to carry a backup. For me personally, I don't expect to ever need my EDC, let alone a backup. I'm not a celebrity, I'm not wealthy, or engaged in high risk business. The only way I'd get caught up in a life or death confrontation is probably just pure random chance. And if that ever occurs, I'm prepared for 99.9% of those situations by just having a single reliable compact handgun at the ready.

But what it comes down to really, is that everyone has their own comfort level and their own perception of the risk they face. Prepare yourself as you see fit.

Sparks2112
January 27, 2009, 10:21 AM
Depends on the day for me. Currently I have a Glock 20 holding 15+1 with an 18 round magazine on my other hip.

There's a LAW-12 in the trunk of my car with 25 Federal Slugs and 25 Federal LEO flight control 00 buckshot in separate bandoleers to feed it with as well.

If I'm shooting somewhere I always have a 2nd gun on my person.

If I'm in a bad neighborhood looking at investment property where I might run into squatters, drug dealers that don't like seeing me poking around (twice so far, no shots fired), or whomever else that might cause problem I've usually got 3 on me, my current 3 gun carry setup being the Glock 10mm with reload, a FN FiveseveN 5.7x28 with reload, and either an HK P7 PSP, or Taurus 9mm snub nose depending on what I'm wearing. Not to mention the shotgun in the car.

I'm a big guy though, and I don't mind dressing around them. Also, before I ever had my CCW someone brandished a MAC 10 (or maybe 11 though I didn't stop to ask which it was) at me while I was looking at property and told me to get the "you know what" off of his turf.

So, anyway. Depends on your situation.

Erik
January 27, 2009, 10:23 AM
"Is carrying 2 guns overkill?"

No, not necessarily. For example: The addition of a J-frame to the pocket or ankle does not "overkill" make; and there are plenty of of comparably and smaller sized pistols available on the market.

Erik
January 27, 2009, 10:28 AM
And with that, some will note that "no, not necessarily" allows for instances where "yes, at times" may be the correct answer. For example: The addition of as second Glock 21 to the belt arguably makes for "overkill;" as with any of the service sized pistols.

But... Nothing is written in stone and if the carrier doesn't mind and can pull it off it's their business.

Erik, who always carries one, usually carries two, and at work frequently brings along bigger primaries.

Ridge_Runner_5
January 27, 2009, 10:34 AM
Apparently it IS overkill...
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/5625/overkillir8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Erik
January 27, 2009, 10:35 AM
On a side note...

The whole Puffer Fish/ Finny Pack drift is probably on of the better drifts I can recall. :D

skoro
January 27, 2009, 08:59 PM
The whole Puffer Fish/ Finny Pack drift is probably on of the better drifts I can recall.


That IS a damn good one! ;)

doh_312
January 27, 2009, 09:16 PM
Overkill? I do not think so, but that's me. I always have a gun on me, except for the shower or bed, but then it is with in arms reach. Just prepared I guess. I will carry two pistols as often as I can, easier now because of our cold weather. Two XD's: 5inch .45 and 4inch .40 a spare mag for the 45 and two spares for the 40. I don't have a "pocket" size gun yet as the one I had has become my wife's. Haven't had the money to buy a replacement yet. I would carry my shotgun in my car if I had a safe way to lock it in. I would carry a AR as well if I had one. If my clothing doesn't permit two firearms I'll tuck one gun plus spare mags in the bag I carry with me. I also have a light for darkness and a knife. Overkill or just prepared? I prefer to think I am prepared. After all, the chances of ever needing a gun are so slim, yet we chose to carry. The chances of your primary gun failing are slim as well, but if you do need the back-up, wouldn't you be glad you bothered strapping it on? Especially if it's a pocket gun? Oh but for some, a pocket or ankle back-up is just too cumbersome. As compared to their primary.

Jim243
January 27, 2009, 09:58 PM
Actually, the mag side is attached to you belt...so the added weight of the mag does little to effect anything.

I see you don't wear a sholder holster or you would not have said that.

Try a Taurus 40 S&W in sholder holster, two spare mags on other side of sholder holster, Bersa 380 in IWB on strong side at 5:00 o'clock and folding knife on belt on strong side. If you don't have time to get to the 40 then go for the 380 not all situations will allow you to get to your primary weapon.

Four pens now thats overkill.

Jim

Wagonman
January 27, 2009, 11:58 PM
lol

FM12
January 28, 2009, 12:58 AM
"Overkill" is subjective, depending on what you have in mind to "kill":D

At one time in my on-going LE career, I carried three guns: My duty sidearm, a .38 on my ankle and a 380 Browning in a shoulder holster under an Ike jacket. The reason I carried only 3 was that I really couldnt comfortably carry 4 on my person.:cool:

I'm still looking for room for number 4, though.

You carry as much as you need to make you and your loved-ones safe! My hat is off to you.

R1145
January 28, 2009, 01:06 AM
...always have one more than you think you'll need.

Nnobby45
January 28, 2009, 01:30 AM
try carrying two and see how it feels. my guess is that after carrying two for awhile, you will go back to one. i also think that, in general, an extra mag is a better choice than an extra gun.


I've heard those sentiments many a time. But never once from someone who's actually been in gunfights. Not an expert, but my observations tell me that such folks are never without backup.

Now, of course, for those of us who don't ever expect to be in a gunfight, one gun makes perfect sense, since we aren't planning on using the one we've got.

Playboypenguin
January 28, 2009, 02:23 AM
I see you don't wear a sholder holster or you would not have said that.
Oh how wrong you are...I wear one quite frequently. Since the non-gun side does not hang freely, but instead attaches to my belt loop, the added weight of a mag really makes no difference in the overall feel. The weight of my pants and belt make the mag negligible. :)

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r89/PlayboyPenguin/SHtiedown.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r89/PlayboyPenguin/Misc/SHvisible1.jpg

Stevie-Ray
January 28, 2009, 06:11 PM
Definitely not overkill. I carry a primary .45 ACP and BUG .32 ACP, pretty much always. Of course I live in close proximity to Detroit and have been told I should carry not less than an AR-15.:D

FLA2760
January 28, 2009, 06:26 PM
A back up gun or BUG is a wise move IMO. Murphy is never too far from any of us. :rolleyes:

I wear my seatbelt and as a second layer of protection my car has airbags. I hope never to use them for their intended purpose. ;)

Hunter Rose
January 28, 2009, 06:53 PM
>I wear my seatbelt and as a second layer of protection my car has airbags. I hope never to use them for their intended purpose.<

Which just begs the question, what purpose DO you intend to use them for? ;)

BikerRN
January 29, 2009, 03:00 AM
I've heard those sentiments many a time. But never once from someone who's actually been in gunfights. Not an expert, but my observations tell me that such folks are never without backup.

Now, of course, for those of us who don't ever expect to be in a gunfight, one gun makes perfect sense, since we aren't planning on using the one we've got.

Having had need of my BUG before, I am seldom without a BUG.

One never knows which hand they will have available to draw with when they need a gun. Two is a minimum, three is preferred for off duty carry.

Biker

fivepaknh
January 29, 2009, 03:38 AM
To each his own, but personally I only feel the need to carry one. Statistically I’m unlikely to need one and the chances of needing two is even slimmer. Each additional gun a person chooses to carry the odd get even smaller that they’ll ever need it. I guess it all depends on how much of a chance you’re willing to take.

Though, I’ve seen a few member photos and some of you have a much greater risk of early death due to being overweight? Why be so prepared for a possible violent encounter when some of you take much greater risk with your health? How many of you that carries more than one gun, smokes, or drives without a seatbelt? Statistically those things are more likely to kill you than a situation that may require two guns or several reloads.

Playboypenguin
January 29, 2009, 03:51 AM
Though, I’ve seen a few member photos and some of you have a much greater risk of early death due to being overweight?
Hey!!! I'm on a diet! Besides, it's glandular. :mad: :p :o

fivepaknh
January 29, 2009, 04:22 AM
I know you're kidding, but I honestly wasn't referring to anyone specific. :)

I’m just making the point that we all take many risk without much thought of preparing for those risk, yet some are extremely prepared for the unlikely violent encounter. Well, unlikely for most of us, depending on environment.

akr
January 29, 2009, 04:41 AM
Penguin, you're not overweight. You should see me....no, you shouldn't.

Glenn E. Meyer
January 29, 2009, 10:22 AM
If you guys start posting how fat we are pictures - expect every moderator to race to lock this! :D:barf:

BTW, we have done the statistics argument of planning for the central tendency vs. what is a reasonable cut in the extremes of possible incidents to death. Do we have to beat that dead horse?

SilentHitz
January 29, 2009, 12:18 PM
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p27/SilentHitz/dead_horse.gif

Sorry Glen...I just couldn't resist:o;)

Playboypenguin
January 29, 2009, 12:20 PM
I wonder if that horse died from obesity...or because his first gun ran out of ammo? :)

LUGNUTT
January 29, 2009, 12:24 PM
no

warrior poet
January 29, 2009, 01:05 PM
Is two guns overkill? Refer to USMC rules of combat Number 1: Bring a weapon. Preferably, bring at least two. Bring all of your friends who have weapons. Bring their friends who have weapons.

Nuff said.

armsmaster270
January 29, 2009, 03:14 PM
I'll agree with that

Milspec
January 29, 2009, 04:54 PM
In warm weather I'll wear a Desantis belly band with a Kel-tec P-11 in the holster and a PF-9 w/CAT laser in the handcuff pocket. I wear it high in back and below belt level in front (like a Smart Carry). Add my P3AT & LCP in front & back pocket holsters and I've got enough guns for the whole family... :D

Milspec :)

CWO4USCGRET
January 30, 2009, 07:22 AM
6 1911 pistols, concealed, to illustrate a point - that it could be done; no one could say if I was or wasn't carrying. Some correctly guessed I was carrying more then 1 gun but they knew I carried anyway.

On a more serious note, like some of you I get paid to strap on the duty belt with handcuffs, baton, pepper spray, 2 spare 12 round magazines and a semi-automatic pistol with 12 rounds of ammo. My training (and experience) tells me that in uniform I don't want to physically fight a bad guy nor do I want to get is a gun fight with them either. I've been told that if I get into a fight I've already lost...in other words - by whatever means, WIN, immediately, if not sooner.

Off-duty I am not Bruce Willis at Baltimore-Washington International Airport; I will try to protect innocent people if I can but I am not going to go on the offensive - try to stop the threat, cover myself, and wait for help to arrive.

Croz
January 30, 2009, 10:16 AM
I once carried 6 1911 pistols, concealed, to illustrate a point - that it could be done; no one could say if I was or wasn't carrying. Some correctly guessed I was carrying more then 1 gun but they knew I carried anyway.

Please tell me you took pictures!?! I'd love to see that. I once saw a picture of friend carrying 2 full size 1911's in jeans and a t-shirt and you couldn't tell at all. 6 is a true accomplishment!

Smallgame2100
January 30, 2009, 10:18 AM
Never a bad thing to have 2 on you.
What if one jams or runs out?
You got your backup and boom you win :)

Glenn E. Meyer
January 30, 2009, 10:42 AM
Don't carry six 1911's and extra mags if your plane lands in the Hudson. That would be under-water-kill. Blub!

So, are we convinced that carrying an extra gun or mag isn't nuts? Finally a consensus? Just preparing for a reasonable in the tails level of the continuum of incident intensity?

aroundlsu
January 30, 2009, 11:29 AM
I carry a P7 in a Milt Sparks VMII with two spare mags on weak side. P3AT with spare mag in my back pocket in a pocket holster. The P3AT takes absolutely no thought to carry. In a pair of Levi 501s it's as comfortable as my wallet.

Recently, I left my P7 in my home bathroom and didn't realize it until 6 hours later after running all over town (Yes, a VMII is that comfy). Even though my main sidearm was left behind I still had my little P3AT.

And yes, I used to laugh too at the thought of someone leaving their gun in a bathroom.

Playboypenguin
January 30, 2009, 12:50 PM
Don't carry six 1911's and extra mags if your plane lands in the Hudson. That would be under-water-kill. Blub!
And the "worst joke in thread" award goes to...:D

Geoff Timm
January 31, 2009, 07:43 AM
Seven pages and nobody quotes Mas Ayoob?

A good reason for a back up gun is to arm a qualified person who is not carrying. --or words to that effect.

Down here in Florida, the spandex capital of the world, your lady may be capable but not carrying because of style. I'm sure the prurient imaginations of the young and enthusiastic will provide the necessary imaginary graphics. :eek:

Cross reference: http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/

Geoff
Who notes FL law is just as silly as anywhere else.

Double Naught Spy
January 31, 2009, 08:07 AM
No need to cite Ayoob and carrying to share with an unarmed person was mentioned back on the first page.

Your cartoon link apparently changes daily and currently has nothing to do with Florida, spandex, concealed carry, or anything mentioned in the post.

SilentHitz
January 31, 2009, 08:54 AM
So, are we convinced that carrying an extra gun or mag isn't nuts? Yes we are...at least us smart ones...J/K:p;)

Still just comes down to personal choice though...now on with the debate LOL

Playboypenguin
January 31, 2009, 12:11 PM
A good reason for a back up gun is to arm a qualified person who is not carrying. --or words to that effect.
No offense, but that statement is a little too "mall ninja" for my tastes. Who really lives their lives thinking this way and how many times have they actually put this into practice?

Geoff Timm
February 1, 2009, 07:31 AM
No offense, but that statement is a little too "mall ninja" for my tastes. Who really lives their lives thinking this way and how many times have they actually put this into practice?

None taken, this is a forum. Mas Ayoob mentioned several instances in various articles over the years.

Geoff
Who listens and learns.

Geoff Timm
February 1, 2009, 07:35 AM
In a previous post Double Naught Spy said, Your cartoon link apparently changes daily and currently has nothing to do with Florida, spandex, concealed carry, or anything mentioned in the post.

True, but if you check out the previous cartoons you will learn all about Florida, at least the Tampa Bay area, spandex, weapons and such.

Geoff
Who likes to spread his bad habits, such as on line cartoons, to the innocent.:D

Playboypenguin
February 1, 2009, 10:52 AM
None taken, this is a forum. Mas Ayoob mentioned several instances in various articles over the years.
Can you give some examples? I have read some of his work and he has always seemed more of a "yarn spinner" than a real journalist. A glaring lack of details or evidence always seem to be present in his stories.

A lot of the things he says are so over the top and not based in reality. When I try to find out what he is basing his opinions on I usually cannot find anything. I cannot even find where he has actually had any true gunfighting experience. I sometimes feel he is one of the greatest jokes ever played on the gun community...the ultimate example of "those that can, do...and those that can't, make a career out of talking about it."

Creature
February 1, 2009, 11:03 AM
Now this should get interesting....

Glenn E. Meyer
February 1, 2009, 11:10 AM
If you want to discuss Ayoob's views of two guns fine - or his data base.

If you want to dislike him - that's thread drift which isn't useful. Mas is a member here - PM or e-mail him for a reference if one wants to.

Playboypenguin
February 1, 2009, 02:15 PM
If you want to dislike him - that's thread drift which isn't useful. Mas is a member here - PM or e-mail him for a reference if one wants to.

In this case, his credibility is relevant. I do not dislike him or his writings. I find them entertaining. However, his writings are being used in this case to validate a reason for the general citizen to carry multiple weapons. Something I have no issue with either. Since his writings are being used as a reference, the validity and basis for those opinions is fair game. He puts himself in the public light so he has to be able to address criticism of his opinions. Just as we all do when we post on this public forum. I would bet that every one of us here has had to defend our positions and provide basis for our ideas more than once on this forum.

He often discusses personal experience that would back up his ideals, but I seldom see any proof of these experiences. I also see lots of people dispute his claims and I never see him address these disputes. Which is fine, he is not required to do so...but that does not change the fact that the disputes are made and no evidence is there to support his claims.

In this case, he claims you should carry a second gun so you can arm a second person. I not only find this a bit outlandish but also a bit on the irresponsible side. I would never hand a loaded gun to a stranger. Surely he has basis for claiming this is the right thing to do. Surely he did not just decide this in his own mind without it having any relevance to the real world. This opinion, along with a lot of his opinions, just strikes me as being very "mall ninja." It strikes me as being someone who talks the talk but has never really walked the walk. This is how he makes his living and I believe he just might be the one of the better writers and bigger personalities, but I think a lot of it is theater. I just think some people do not realize that.

Creature
February 1, 2009, 02:19 PM
He often discusses personal experience that would back up his ideals, but I seldom see any proof of these experiences.

Why then don't you just go ahead and call the man a liar?

You have said you were a LEO and an army officer in previous posts. Are you required to prove this claim? No. Doesn't mean you weren't a cop and an army officer if someone doesn't believe you, does it?

Playboypenguin
February 1, 2009, 02:32 PM
Why then don't you just go ahead and call the man a liar?
There is a big difference between being a story teller and a liar. Is Stephen King a liar?
You have said you were a LEO and an army officer in previous posts. Are you required to prove this claim? No. Doesn't mean you weren't a cop and an army officer if someone doesn't believe you, does it?

If you followed my earliest posts you would find I did back up my claims to my previous professions. Even very cute pics of a young me in my uniform. Still, I am not the one making a living off feeding questionable information to people. Anyone else in here that has been an LEO or received advanced training will probably agree that Ayoob is more regarded as a fiction writer in professional circles than anything else. He writes some good stuff, and much of it is informative as well as entertaining...but if you start taking it as gospel and use it to validate your personal decisions you are probably not choosing the best source.

He is a controversial and entertaining figure. I think he likes that. I think he puts himself in that position in purpose. it is a great way to promote yourself and have success, which he has. People just need to realize that when treating his writings as scripture.

In this case, his opinion is being used to validate carrying two guns. Instead of deflecting the issue why not address his reason he gives and question the credibility of the idea.

Simply put, what does he base this claim upon? How often has it actually happened? How likely is it to happen? Who has it happened to and when?

Creature
February 1, 2009, 03:11 PM
Is Stephen King a liar?

Stephen King doesnt claim his stories to be life experiences..

P99AS9
February 1, 2009, 03:14 PM
To answer this bluntly: no.

Creature
February 1, 2009, 03:15 PM
Anyone else in here that has been an LEO or received advanced training will probably agree that Ayoob is more regarded as a fiction writer in professional circles than anything else.

Really? You...and who else?

Playboypenguin
February 1, 2009, 03:33 PM
Stephen King doesnt claim his stories to be life experiences..

Stephen King often writes from a first person perspective. To an ignorant reader it could seem he is making claims that he experienced the events. The trick with writings is to know when to take them at face value and when to validate their contents. Knowing when to accept something and fact and when to accept it s fiction is very important.

Can we please address the topic and answer the questions as to "How often does he claim this has happened? Who has it happened to? What was the outcome?"

Creature
February 1, 2009, 03:38 PM
Stephen King often writes from a first person perspective. To an ignorant reader it could seem he is making claims that he experienced the events.

Dude....its a style of narration in writing. Its called "the first person" for a reason. Stephen King stories are still fantasy. I seriously doubt if Mas Ayoob is writing less from personal experience, as he claims, than as an effective style of fantasy writing using the first person.

Playboypenguin
February 1, 2009, 03:49 PM
Dude....its a style of narration in writing. Its called "the first person" for a reason. Stephen King stories are still fantasy. I seriously doubt if Mas Ayoob is writing less from personal experience, as he claims, than as an effective style of fantasy writing using the first person.

Then you will have no problem getting back on topic and discussing the validity of his claim. How about it?

Creature
February 1, 2009, 04:11 PM
Since you obviously lack any proof that Mas Ayoob's life experience claims are untrue, sure...lets get back on topic: two guns is always better than none...or one.

Playboypenguin
February 1, 2009, 04:50 PM
Like I thought, a while lot of defending nonsense with nothing but bluster.

Does anyone else have any real evidence to enter supporting or criticising the validity of this line of reasoning?

Creature
February 1, 2009, 05:11 PM
Like I thought, a while lot of defending nonsense with nothing but bluster.

What? did you mean whole?

Youre the one who made a whole lot of nonsense about Mas Ayood with nothing but bluster to back up your claim. So who again is full of it?

Hondo11
February 1, 2009, 05:38 PM
Really? You...and who else?

Me.


Not really on topic though...other than to debate his basis for the "carry two so you can arm someone else" theory.

Playboypenguin
February 1, 2009, 06:08 PM
Youre the one who made a whole lot of nonsense about Mas Ayood with nothing but bluster to back up your claim. So who again is full of it?

I addressed an idea that has little validity. Would you care to put forth information to support the idea or do you have nothing to add on topic?

Creature
February 1, 2009, 06:13 PM
I addressed an idea that has little validity. Would you care to put forth information to support the idea or do you have nothing to add on topic?

What ever. You made wild claims calling into question a member's personal experience's and you got promptly shut down...to which you promptly tap dance away from the issue by asking us to disprove this member authenticity...and then quickly trying to steer away from your axe grinding by claiming it isnt on topic. Nice try, Playboy. Perhaps when you make such wild claims and personally lambaste a fellow member's professional and journalistic integrity, you should first have proof to back it up.

Michael A. Le Lack
February 1, 2009, 06:40 PM
I carry 6, one on each ankle (2) one on each side in shoulder with 2 extra mags on each side also (2), one SOB (1) and one IWB (1)=6. All 45's so only one caliber of ammo. PS, NEVER carry in church. STEELERS have scored Already, GO BIG BEN!:):):cool:

Wagonman
February 1, 2009, 07:01 PM
Wow, you patrolling the Paki/Afgan border?

hoytinak
February 1, 2009, 07:06 PM
Wow, you patrolling the Paki/Afgan border?

Even then I only had the M9....oh and the M24. :D

Socrates
February 1, 2009, 07:08 PM
Yes, it is probably over-kill. Of course, statistically speaking, carrying a high capacity gun is over-kill. Heck, carrying one at all is probably over-kill. It is just a matter of with what level of "over preparedness" you personally feel comfortable.
PBP: You posted this early in the thread. It qualifies as pure Mas Ayoob. As you well know, in San Francisco, Los Angeles, I suspect Seattle, but I didn't look it up, San Diego, etc. the FBI crime statistics make you between a 1 and 14 and 1 and 22 chance of being the victim of a violent crime, per year you live there. Florida used to be about 4 times that, but, CCW has cut down the crime rate considerably.

I don't much like those odds. Being prepared is a really good idea, and, I wish I was more so...

SilentHitz
February 1, 2009, 07:13 PM
..oh and the M24. I can see where one of those would be handi...given the location.:cool:

Creature
February 1, 2009, 07:47 PM
PS, NEVER carry in church.

I never understood this line of thinking.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14808321/detail.html

God helps those that defend themselves.

roach4047
February 1, 2009, 07:53 PM
Hell I sleep with a B.U.G so I don't think that carrying one is overkill.

Roach

Playboypenguin
February 1, 2009, 08:03 PM
PBP: You posted this early in the thread. It qualifies as pure Mas Ayoob. As you well know, in San Francisco, Los Angeles, I suspect Seattle, but I didn't look it up, San Diego, etc. the FBI crime statistics make you between a 1 and 14 and 1 and 22 chance of being the victim of a violent crime, per year you live there. Florida used to be about 4 times that, but, CCW has cut down the crime rate considerably.
That is kind of a misuse of statistics. Violent crime can include vandalism and breaking and entering. Your chances of being assaulted are much lower.

Even if you are assaulted, are you going to be involved in a multi-person running gun battle? How many shots are you even going to fire? Are you going to be recruiting aid on the spot?

There is a huge difference of considering the likelihood of an event and then choosing to be over prepared (or just preparing for the worst) and trying to justify your own opinions with fictitious story telling.

Brian Pfleuger
February 1, 2009, 08:18 PM
There is a huge difference of considering the likelihood of an event and then choosing to be over prepared (or just preparing for the worst) and trying to justify your own opinions with fictitious story telling.


Hey! Where were you when I tried to make that point in the "2 mags" thread?:D:eek:

Playboypenguin
February 1, 2009, 08:20 PM
Hey! Where were you when I tried to make that point in the "2 mags" thread?
Hey, I can't read every thread y'know. I do have to try and put on the illusion of having a personal life and I am trying to get our bar open. :)

OldMarksman
February 1, 2009, 08:24 PM
From Playboypenguin: In this case, he [(Ayoob)] claims you should carry a second gun so you can arm a second person.


That's one reason, and under certain circumstances it may prove helpful indeed.

I not only find this a bit outlandish but also a bit on the irresponsible side.

OK. Each to his own. Basis? Your qualifications?

I would never hand a loaded gun to a stranger.

Has anyone suggested doing so?

Violent crime can include vandalism and breaking and entering.

No.

SilentHitz
February 1, 2009, 08:28 PM
are you going to be involved in a multi-person running gun battle? How many shots are you even going to fire? Are you going to be recruiting aid on the spot? Nobody knows the answer to those questions...isn't that why we prepare in the 1st place? If all variables were known, we would know when we could just leave the house unarmed.

Playboypenguin
February 1, 2009, 08:35 PM
In this case, he [(Ayoob)] claims you should carry a second gun so you can arm a second person.
That's one reason, and under certain circumstances it may prove helpful indeed.

What circumstances and can you cite actuall examples and not hypothetical situations?
Violent crime can include vandalism and breaking and entering.
No.
Yes, they can. I have had clients convicted of violent crimes for just such acts. The legal definition of violence does not just include acts of harm against another being. It can also deal with the amount of force used in committing a crime and the resulting damages and intent. The definition of violent crime suggests that violence is a behavior by persons, against persons or property that intentionally threatens, attempts, or actually inflicts physical harm. The definition of physical harm is very far reaching.

You also have to consider that rape is one of the most common violent crimes and that is most often a crime between to involved persons.

Brian Pfleuger
February 1, 2009, 08:42 PM
If all variables were known, we would know when we could just leave the house unarmed.


The question is, which of those variables have a high enough probability of happening, so that I can know which ones I choose those for which I feel the need to prepare? Secondarily, one are the trade-off of preparing for any given variable?

Many, many people go out every day completely unprepared for a violent event. Why? Because the cost of preparing are too high for them. Maybe it's the cost of a gun directly. Maybe it's the cost of ridicule for being so "paranoid". There are as many reasons to prepare as there are excuses not to prepare.

We can never prepare for every variable. The odds of needing more than one gun (or needing an additional mag;))are vanishingly small. So small that I choose not to prepare to that degree. Everyone should prepare for those events such that when they walk out the door they feel, well, prepared. For some people that means remembering the cell phone. For others it means a high-cap primary, a spare mag or two, a bug with a spare mag, pepper spray, a flashlight and a rifle in the vehicle.

nightwolf1974
February 1, 2009, 08:47 PM
i carry a backup gun too. when i'm out to eat i carry a 1911A1 in a shoulder holster and a hi-cap pistol on my side covered up by a jacket, and always a SP101 in my pocket.

you really have to plan your wardrobe.:cool:

SilentHitz
February 1, 2009, 08:48 PM
So small that I choose not to prepare to that degree. Everyone should prepare for those events such that when they walk out the door they feel, well, prepared The exact reason I stated earlier that after all the debate is done, it still boils down to personal choice...carry, or don't carry whatever you're comfortable with.

Socrates
February 1, 2009, 08:51 PM
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/offenses/violent_crime/index.html
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/offenses/expanded_information/index.html

I went through these statistics, and came up with those figures. It was NOT a 'misuse' of statistics. I was wondering what my chances would be in certain major cities of being a victim of violent crime. I did my statistics by adding the total for the violent crimes I consider violent, as does the FBI, added them up, and divided by the population of the cities. Some fun notes:
Orlando is REALLY dangerous. Yep, Disney ban on guns makes the entrance and exit, and staying around the park a free for all zone for Bad guys.

San Francisco is 1 in 17 per year. San Diego was 1 in 22, less then I thought. L.A. was in between.

Playboypenguin
February 1, 2009, 08:55 PM
I went through these statistics, and came up with those figures. It was NOT a 'misuse' of statistics. I was wondering what my chances would be in certain major cities of being a victim of violent crime. I did my statistics by adding the total for the violent crimes I consider violent, as does the FBI, added them up, and divided by the population of the cities. Some fun notes:

What formula did you use to come to this conclusion? What factors did you consider? Did you include all violent crimes or just physical assaults. Did you just add up the numbers and divide by the number of people or did you actually consider the time frame variable? Did you take domestic assaults into consideration or location of events?

OldMarksman
February 2, 2009, 02:46 PM
What circumstances and can you cite actuall examples [that arming a second person may prove useful] and not hypothetical situations?

Hypothetical scenarios and common sense. Risk analysis does not always require historical data. How do you think they designed safety and reliability provisions into the first spacecraft?

In any event, it would be close to impossible to accumulate data on encounters sorted by the number of armed citizens involved--and if one could, the number of variables involved would likely prevent drawing any meaningful conclusions. And that's before addressing whether one person may have provided a gun to another in any of the situations..

Is it not intuitively obvious to you that, if one were accosted by several people from more than one direction, having another armed person with him or her might improve the odds?

However, that's just one reason one might carry a second weapon. Redundancy in case of failure to fire, or having a back-up in case the first is taken or falls out of reach, would rank higher, in my view.

Violent crime can include vandalism and breaking and entering.


From the FBI Home Page:
Violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. According to the Uniform Crime Reporting Program's definition, violent crimes involve force or threat of force.

You will see the same categorization in metropolitan crime reports.

I'm sure you are aware that robbery involves a forceful or threatening encounter with a person, and that theft, burglary, etc. are categorized as property crimes.

Stevie-Ray
February 2, 2009, 03:13 PM
Violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. According to the Uniform Crime Reporting Program's definition, violent crimes involve force or threat of force. And add just one more to that; simple assault, according to the United States Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Statistics. But only if you believe Wiki. Certainly nothing about vandalism.

pax
February 2, 2009, 03:54 PM
Note to Mas:

Go for it.

Remember to attack the argument, not the person who made it. No matter how richly he might deserve it!

*Sits back, grabs some popcorn, and gets the ban stick warmed up just in case people forget to stay reasonably civilized.*

pax

Socrates
February 2, 2009, 04:36 PM
Quote:
Violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. According to the Uniform Crime Reporting Program's definition, violent crimes involve force or threat of force.

Take their figures for violent crime, divide that number into the population of the city, and you have your chance, per year, of being a victim of a violent crime.

Mas Ayoob
February 2, 2009, 11:36 PM
Playboy Penguin, your chosen nickname has something in common with your argument.

Neither is going to fly.

In your unprovoked attack on me earlier in this thread, you wrote:


I have read some of his work and he has always seemed more of a "yarn spinner" than a real journalist. A glaring lack of details or evidence always seem to be present in his stories.

A lot of the things he says are so over the top and not based in reality. When I try to find out what he is basing his opinions on I usually cannot find anything. I cannot even find where he has actually had any true gunfighting experience. I sometimes feel he is one of the greatest jokes ever played on the gun community...the ultimate example of "those that can, do...and those that can't, make a career out of talking about it."

Let's deconstruct that piece by piece. "A glaring lack of details or evidence always seem (sic) to be present in his stories." ??? If you were familiar with my work, you would know that I do nonfiction articles and books, and the only material I produce that could be called "stories" would be the Ayoob Files feature in each issue of American Handgunner magazine. These are narrative reconstructions of documented shooting incidents based on the recollections of survivors, witnesses, and investigators. The one in the current issue is typical: it contains the name of the shooter, the name of the deceased, the location of the shooting, the date (and, almost to the minute, the time) of the incident, and details down to the grain weight of the fatal bullets. "Glaring lack of details or evidence"???

You can't find anything to explain opinions or recommendations? Sounds like a reading comprehension issue or a profound lack of research on the topic you've discussed.

And, please, let's dispense with your pretense that this is about examples of the use of the second gun to arm another trusted, competent person. That was addressed for you on the second page of this thread, in Post #36, by Corpsman. The logic is obvious to anyone with the most rudimentary grasp of tactics/defense issues.

Penguin, on Page 7 of this thread in your post #36 you write, "I would never hand a loaded gun to a stranger. Surely he (Ayoob) has basis for claiming this is the right thing to do."

Your statement is a classic straw man argument, and untruthful to its core. Anyone can review this thread and see that no one suggested handing a loaded gun to a stranger, and I have never suggested that anywhere at any time. The concept of "backup gun to arm backup person" is transferring the weapon to someone you know is competent to use it, who is does not have their own weapon at the moment.

Your reasoning there would get you flunked out of a junior high school debate class. What were you thinking when you applied it in THIS forum, which is read by professionals?

Penguin, you need to get away from your trademark comic books for a little while, and perhaps refresh with a little adult education. Basic courses in research, critical thinking, and debate would be useful, and certainly an Introduction to Ethics class. If you can find a place with a pre-law or criminal justice curriculum, take a course that includes Standards of Proof. Here, you've attacked my credibility with zero to back up your allegations, and did so while hiding behind Internet anonymity at that. Yet you imply (Page 7 of this thread, post #148) that when YOUR credibility was attacked after you claimed to have been a police officer and military officer, it was sufficient for you to post what you called "...very cute pix of a young (you) in (your) uniform." :barf: When I stopped laughing, I had to wonder, "Is there a costume store next door to his comic book store?"

Get a grip, Penguin. Stay on topic. Learn to research before you write, and to think before you pull the trigger on a post. It will make you a better person, and one day you may even get past having to make unprovoked ad hominem attacks under an anonymous name.:)

Playboypenguin
February 3, 2009, 12:37 AM
I was wondering when you would finally weigh in. :)

Socrates
February 3, 2009, 01:07 AM
Hi Mas.

You never did stop by to shoot my .500 Max, and .475 Linebaugh. I'm sure I could take you for a trip up to Jack Huntingtons, and, we'd have LOTS of fun.
http://i45.invalid-sanitized.localhost/albums/f99/Socrates28/VanHornLott450n2/LottVHleft.jpg


Also, I sent you Chucks contact information. He's getting better, but, the Glock in the spine is a REALLY bad injury, and, you were right, center of back carry is NOT a good idea. You never did contact him.
Playboy Penguin, your chosen nickname has something in common with your argument.

Neither is going to fly.

Now that's funny. Almost as funny as this:
http://i45.invalid-sanitized.localhost/albums/f99/Socrates28/penguinILLLOGIC.jpg

We need folks like you in the industry, even if we don't agree with you on somethings....

Keep up the great work...

By the way:
After looking at the FBI shoot outs, and the penetration problems they had, what do you think of the idea of using ball ammo in 9mm, or even 45 ACP?
Seems more penetration is needed then the current SD ammo gives us...

If you all missed it: Mas has said he wants to shoot with me, but, when offered the chance, declined. Kind of affects his credibility with me, as well as PBP...

Socrates
February 4, 2009, 05:46 AM
I've been reading Mas's stuff for the last hour. It goes from very funny, in particular where he tries to claim it's American Handgunner, and their comments that have made Glocks so popular, to another article suggesting a manual safety on a Glock for LEO's...

His stories on actual cases are very entertaining...

Wagonman
February 4, 2009, 10:50 AM
I really enjoy Mas's articles and plan on attending his training course one of these days. I believe he is a Cop and a Expert Witness so I would put a lot of faith in his prose.

I also enjoy listening to his podcast----nice pipes ;)

Creature
February 4, 2009, 06:20 PM
Playboypenguin wrote:
I was wondering when you would finally weigh in.


Cant say I am very surprised that you have no counter argument. If none is forthcoming, then perhaps a public apology is in order?

OrlandoRecon
February 4, 2009, 10:26 PM
Is carrying 2 guns overkill?





Hell No !!!

http://image1.frappr.com/pix1/i/20090204/a/d/f/adf06e49157e67e5519daad170b189300_large.jpg

BoulderTroll
February 15, 2009, 12:47 AM
I think on patrol carrying two guns is a very smart thing to do. Off duty, I don't see a reason to.

supergas452M
February 15, 2009, 01:43 AM
Off duty, I don't see a reason to.

Well, since you feel that way and a lot of others do also and have made their points and opinions, I offer my response...

Do I always carry two guns? Actually, rarely. However, I absolutely recognize why doing so would in no way be considered overkill but in fact be a way to keep from being killed. More power to ya if you want to carry two or more.
Most of the time I feel OK carrying just one with extra ammo and a knife.;)

Nnobby45
February 15, 2009, 03:20 AM
Can't help but notice that those who make accusations against Mas seem to be abrasive in the majority of their posts, and one would have to consider that being the center of attention is what drives their participation in the forum--more so than offering a contribution.

Some are so determined, that they resort to the most miniscule detail that even those involved couldn't agree on.

I don't claim to be perfect by any means. If my posts get to the point where I, on a regular basis, can only pick others apart without offering a contribution, then I hope some one lets me know.

The Ayoob Files in American HG is my favorie feature and I always look forward to it. Without it, I wouldn't subscribe.

I wish Mas would get off his butt:D and create another Ayoob Files--the Book.:cool:

To keep with the main spirit of the thread: NO! carrying two guns is a wise choice for more than one reason, as some have pointed out.

As far as being a violent crime vicitm, I reject the idea that you use over all population to determine YOUR chances, since certain areas of most cities have a much higher crime rate, and your chances aren't the same as for those who live there.

However, your chances of being a victim are about the same as for many others who were victimized even though the odds said it wouldn't happen to them.

Playboypenguin
February 15, 2009, 03:27 AM
Cant say I am very surprised that you have no counter argument. If none is forthcoming, then perhaps a public apology is in order?

Actually, I had lost this thread until tonight due to the erratic behavior of the board on my end lately. I have had to go back and search all the threads I have posted in and then try to find where I left off in them. I am sure I have missed a lot of discussion.

As for my position on Mas, I said my peace and he got to defend his position. There was nothing more to really say that would not have just been bickering. I respect his work and enjoy his writings. I still believe it is mostly fiction, but that is my own right to feel that way. After all, it is pretty bad when a greenhorn like myself has many more times the combat experience than the "proposed expert."

Besides, as more than one person put it to me in PM, "arguing his followers is like arguing with Glock-o-philes about the G19 not being God's gift to firearms."

pax
February 15, 2009, 01:24 PM
PBP ~

That won't cut it here.

You called another member a liar. That, sir, is a personal attack, prohibited by the forum rules.

Apologize or prove your point.

One or the other.

pax

Creature
February 15, 2009, 01:31 PM
I wont be holding my breath waiting for his apology.

Playboypenguin
February 15, 2009, 02:08 PM
You called another member a liar. That, sir, is a personal attack, prohibited by the forum rules.

Apologize or prove your point.

One or the other.

I cannot prove a negative. I cannot prove his accounts never happened. That is an unrealistic requirement.

I did send Mas Ayoob and apology though, in case he felt I was attacking him and not the idea and the experience behind it. I did not call him a liar. I questioned his reasoning and stated I do not think his articles of evidence are reliable or significant accounts. He is not saying it happened to him anyway. He is saying he read about it happening. It does not matter if he is right if the source information is wrong.

But like I said, I did send him an apology in case he feels like he is being attacked. That is not my intent. Anyone that writes a published article or makes a public post on these boards is subject to scrutiny. I am sure he understands that more than most people.

In reality, I was actually quite honored that he responded to my post at all. :)

I would have just left it at that but some people on the boards have a lot of free time and like to follow people around and try to cause conflict.

Creature
February 15, 2009, 02:16 PM
I cannot prove a negative. I cannot prove his accounts never happened. That is an unrealistic requirement.

You cant prove it, so you said it anyway. That's tantamount to calling me a liar. Glad I didnt hold my breath.

And now you accuse me of stalking you. This just keeps getting better and better.

Playboypenguin
February 15, 2009, 02:20 PM
You cant prove it, so you said it anyway. That's tantamount to calling me a liar. Glad I didnt hold my breath.

Asking for proof of an assertion is nowhere near the same thing as making a statement that requires proof of any kind. I always love how you immediately jump to attacking others when they question your information.

Creature
February 15, 2009, 02:22 PM
My information is personal experience, which you are called into question by saying it may or may not have happened. I said it happened. Because it did happen. That would be the same as me saying I think that you never a LEO or an officer in the military. That would be the same as calling you a liar.

But now you accuse me of stalking you and making trouble. I simply check my previous posts, like I always do and look to see when a post has been added to. I dont stalk you PBP. Youre not worth the time to me.

Playboypenguin
February 15, 2009, 02:24 PM
My information is personal experience, which you are calling into question. That would be the same a me saying I think that you never a LEO or an officer in the military. That would be the same as calling you a liar.

You could say that if you wanted to...in fact many people did. Until I posted pics of me in uniform, pics of me at my duty stations, copies of pics from my basic training year book, etc.

See, I made a claim and then backed it up. You might want to try that sometime. :)

PS: I have no problem with personal experience being cited, but you seem to not be able to understand in many of your posts that a single exception does not disprove all other accounts to the contrary.

Creature
February 15, 2009, 02:33 PM
This has gone on for long enough. Your PM to me accusing me of being a fellow homosexual who is infatuated with you is just going to far. You have been reported.

SilentHitz
February 15, 2009, 02:38 PM
:eek: Holy *#&@:eek: No he didn't go there...did he?

Creature
February 15, 2009, 03:03 PM
Oh, yes. He did. That's three personal attacks, in spite being warned by a Mod.

pax
February 16, 2009, 04:37 PM
Closed for all the obvious reasons.

Being dealt with.

pax